Love, Sex & Society with Katie Bogen

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast is intended for adult audiences. Over the age of 18, it contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to us, and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice. Welcome to the Swing Nation Podcast, a podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle. Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe. Interview the experts, learn and grow together. Join the nation. Hey there, pineapple people, and welcome to the swing nation podcast. We are your hosts, Northern guy and Southern girl. And today we have a special guest. Uh, her name is Katie. She's an author. She's a PhD candidate and a whole host of other things. Uh, and so I don't mess it up, Katie. I'm going to let you introduce yourself to our listeners. Absolutely. Thanks so much. Um, Katie Bogan pronouns, she, her, I'm a doctoral candidate in clinical psychology focused on sexual functioning among trauma survivors. I research mostly queer and bisexual people. I'm also a sex therapist in training, and I just came out with my debut novel, which is about the erotic lives of two bisexual adolescents. So you've definitely been looking at non-monogamy kind of, I think, from a different lens than I think most people would. Maybe a little more science, a little more from an author's perspective. So we're definitely interested in your take. And before, you know, we did a pre-call and we were talking a little bit before this. But what kind of, from your lens, what have you kind of learned about non-monogamy? Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, some of it is anecdotal from people in my life who are E&M and who have had multiple partners. But I think the logic that I keep coming back to is this debate that I've really heard through kink research. that I think applies interestingly to the non-monogamous context, which is the debate about innate traits versus socialized traits. Like, is this nature versus nurture? And there's this really cool conversation happening in kink and BDSM research, which I'm lucky enough to participate in, about whether people are born kinky, whether they are born with these kink interests, or if that's something they develop through moving through the world, through gendered socialization, through experiences that excite them. And I've always been curious from the scholarly perspective about applying that debate to ethical non-monogamy of are people born with non-monogamous proclivities? Is this something that's, you know, genetically inherited? Or is it something they develop through social learning, even social contagion? And I'm not here implying that all non-monogamous people are kinky or vice versa, but just that these two questions of is this nature, nurture, or some combination, thereof, can really be applied to both groups, and they're both really socially stigmatized groups. No, yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And I think, you know, me and Lacey are pretty passionate about doing advocacy work for the non-monogamous community. And, you know, we still have friends that have experienced, you know, job loss. We have friends that have had to go through pretty lengthy custody battles and stuff because it came out that they were swingers or non-monogamous. And, you know, they were almost treated as an other. And even at some times, like, they might be at, you know, present a unique risk to people and therefore have to be treated differently. And it is interesting that, you know, in some of that debate, and I know, you know, the queer community has dealt this, where, like, you know, if you're born that way, it's not really a choice, right? This is, you're just, you're just acting on nature, so to speak. And I would almost argue, you know, if you look throughout history, It almost seems like non-monogamy is more the default standard. And monogamy is more the trait that we've learned and we've adapted to socially. Yeah. And monogamy seems to be really aligned with not only capitalism, but like this hyper-independence and like nuclear family system where you're supposed to have like a primary breadwinner in a family. There's supposed to be someone there to maintain a home. those people are meant to raise children. And kind of where like Christian hegemony and capitalism intersect seems to be like a birthplace of this monogamy norm, whereas non-monogamy, I would think, aligns more with collectivist thinking or even like more socially oriented, network oriented systems. So when we talk about like the stigma against non-monogamous people, part of that stigma is that it violates this capitalist orientation toward a nuclear family, which is very like Americana, very Christian West, and really fits people into a teeny box. Yeah. So some of the research I've done on it, you know, I found like the Romans were one of the first ones to really spread monogamy or kind of the time in history where you see monogamy. becoming like the default standard as the Romans kind of expand their empire. And from what I understand is most of the Romans weren't really monogamous, so to speak, in their practice. But the big reason that they held to monogamous beliefs is to pass on their lineage so that when, you know, when the father figure died or whatever, there was one family essentially that the majority of his wealth went to so that his you know it didn't get split up amongst multiple families yeah kind of way to maintain power right yeah it's it's a prioritization of resource allocation god that's so interesting the background on the romans i did not know that but it completely tracks yep yeah yeah and and like you're saying non-monogamy you see that a lot more in like you know it takes a village to raise a child kind of thing where there's not really even sometimes there's not even clear parenting there's Like you're saying there's, you know, like native people where everybody kind of has a job and everybody helps take care of the children. And there's lots of non-monogamy spread throughout several cultures in that type of way. I feel like the, oh, bless you. Sorry. No, you're fine. I feel like the philosophy of collectivism too really overlaps with the non-monogamous philosophy of like, it's not possible to get all of your emotional resourcing met by one singular person. And so the, you know, by everyone according to their skill to everyone according to their need ethos of more socialist or collective systems seems to overlap really, really well with that idea of like, no, you can get your emotional support from someone who's really, really well equipped to provide emotional support, you can get certain kinds of sexual reward from partners that you're really compatible with, you can get intellectual reward from partners that you're really intellectually compatible with. And you don't have to put the demands of all of that labor onto one individual. Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense to me. So in your book, I guess, what kind of research did you do into non-monogamy? So for the first book, it really focuses on a monogamous pairing of adolescents. So these are people who in book one, they're 16 to 20 years old. But I have begun drafting the third book, which focuses on a triad relationship. And I'm going to try really hard not to spoil things for my readers. But I did a lot of reading on relational dynamics when there is a secondary partner involved and the debate in non-monogamy communities of hierarchical relational structures of having a primary secondary versus more like non-hierarchical. structures. I'm not exactly sure what the language is that would be used, but just people have multiple partners and there's not like a place of primacy or this initial pairing and how that changes structures of power. So not only power of, you know, negotiating who's going to do the home labor, who's going to do the grocery shopping, whatever, but intimate power, whose emotional and sexual needs are prioritized in any of those setups. What are the responsibilities for self-advocacy and partner advocacy if you're in a hierarchical versus a not relationship? Like if you have a primary pairing, oftentimes it seems to me from my reading and from anecdotal evidence that that partnership will negotiate together and then they will communicate to their secondary or whoever is sort of invited into a triad what they as a pair want or need to do. from that other person, how things are going from their paired perspective, and that sets up a power differential where you have two people communicating as a unit and then one person who's set intentionally or not on the outside. And it was really interesting to write the ethics of that relationship. There's also an age gap in this dynamic. So you have one person who is younger advocating for themselves with an established long-term couple. that has sort of opened their relationship. And the ethics of that get really gritty. And so much of non-monogamy is focused on this conversation of relational ethics and well-being, of how do you make sure that you're moving through these spaces in a way that minimizes harm and really maximizes reward for everyone involved. And trying to articulate that was, I think, really beautiful and very challenging, especially from someone who's currently monogamously partnered so i wanted to ask a lot of people questions and get a lot of wisdom and insight from people who are currently practicing non-monogamy rather than just like trying to write non-monogamy as like a little currently monogamous girl i guess well that's interesting you know so me and lacy are swingers so we are i guess the a primary partnered couple and we mostly just invite people into our relationship for for, you know, for pleasure, for, you know, exploration and things like that. But we do have several friends that have gone down the trying to be polyamorous route. And what you're describing there is, I think, a real struggle. And really, the reason me and Lacey have been like, you know, that we just don't want to go down that route, because it seems so complicated to, because like you're saying, I think it's natural that when you're in a long term relationship, when you're in a marriage, even if you want to invite somebody into that relationship, when it's already established it's hard not to then prioritize that relationship yeah and i think that's where informed consent is so vital and i think what the you know wisdom of the non-monogamy community or like the poly community how that overlaps with the wisdom from the kink community again really beautifully where if you invite someone into a primary partnership and you're very very clear with them of look we've been together a decade we know or plus or whatever we know each other really well. This person is my person. I want to and need to prioritize their well-being in order for our relationship to continue to thrive. And it's important to us that you know the situation you're coming into, that we know each other really, really well. We know each other's needs quite well. We don't know you or your needs as well. So it's important to us that you're able to advocate for yourself or speak up if we're causing emotional distress in some way or if there's something else that you need. And part of informed consent is also knowing if you are the kind of person that can meet that paradigm, right? Like someone knowing, oh, yes, I can definitely advocate for myself with a partnership. Like I feel confident speaking up for my needs. I feel comfortable with the fact that these two have told me that they're established. And I know I'm coming in as a third party. That takes a lot of insight, a lot of confidence about social and emotional skill. but is part of, I think, entering a polydynamic with informed consent. Yeah. And I think where we've seen people struggle is even when they're going into it, knowing all that and consenting to it. And having the best intentions. Right. The reality of then once you're in it and then, I guess, feeling the being left out or feeling like you're the third wheel or feeling like you're being treated different. Or even, you know, a lot of what we see because we're swingers is couples. So there's two paired couples are kind of trying to join and be in a poly-type relationship. And then that's even more dynamic because now you have two couples that are coming in with primary relationships and trying to give other partners time. I think it seems like it's a big thing. But also, like you're saying, where you just naturally prioritize the partner that you've been Yeah, and I think too about the emotional calculus of that and triangulation in psychology with them. When you have multiple parties in conflict, like conflict resolution between four people is infinitely harder than conflict resolution between three is infinitely harder than conflict resolution between two, which is not to say that it's not possible. But I have so much And I don't want to fetishize either by saying, like, I have so much admiration for people who can do this. But I really feel like it takes a level of emotional insight about yourself and flexibility with others and regulation skills to enter a dynamic with, yeah, with so much up in the air. To be honest, we have, we've had three sets of friends that have engaged in this just in the last year or two. And only one is still together. it's all kind of cracked and fell apart. And it's been hard to watch from the outside looking in. It seems extremely difficult and like a lot of work. But then when we talk about like our dynamic and we explain what we do, I think of like a monogamous person. And I think they would think that what we do is crazy and like a lot of rules, a lot of boundaries, a lot of like things around it. And we kind of feel that same way about, somebody that's engaging in like a poly type situation. So it's kind of funny to see the different perspective and how we all are quick to not judge but kind of judge in some ways. Yeah, I feel like whenever the knee-jerk reaction is like, oh my gosh, I could never. That's like rarely coming from an open place. I'm so curious. I've been noticing this trend online. I used to do a lot of research on social media and in particular, online disinhibition and like people behaving in ways on the internet that they would never behave in person and one of the trends i've been observing is this like cheater outing trend on on threads or on twitter where someone will be like oh i was on this flight last week and this man sitting in seat 65b was on snapchat but he had a wedding ring on and so if you're his wife blah and they'll like disclose a bunch of personal information with the mission of like, quote unquote, catching a cheater without knowing that person's relational dynamic without knowing someone's career. You could you could ruin someone's career. And and it's so it like erases the existence of poly and E&M people completely. It assumes like such a puritanical monogamy. And I'm curious if y'all have have thoughts on this, have had conversations about it. it just blows my mind that this is a thing that people participate in with such glee I've seen a bunch of that and to be honest with you probably we have the same probably FYPs me and you but probably not Dan so much but you know honestly I've never even thought about it but you're 100% correct I guess I've never even thought like if Dan was like on a flight somewhere and was messaging some girl and he had his wedding ring on and it I guess because we're so public But you're 100% right. If someone is like a private, non-monogamous person or engaging in that activity and someone saw that, that could be detrimental if their children saw it, if their church saw it, if their job. I mean, that's huge. That's major. And I also don't think, I think people should just stay in their own lane, you know? Like, it's none of our business if a man has a man. I mean, I think they think they're saving the wife, maybe. I think they think that they're, They're, I don't know, looking out for their fellow female, but maybe she's into it. You never know. Yeah. This idea of like one single structure of girl code, I'm like, boop, not necessarily. And I also feel like it's so different if it's in your own network, right? If it's like a beloved friend or. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And then it's like, hey, you get to do the data collection, right? Of like, are y'all open? Are you seeing other people? Like, getting to know some of that before you step in and engage in serious intimate sabotage, which is always what it reads like to me when I see these posts and, like, the sensational reactions. And it's just, like, people are pretending that non-monogamy doesn't exist or that polydynamics don't exist. Like, you have no idea if this person was even breaking any rules, quote-unquote. So. Yeah, it's funny that you say that because just, like, recently, Dan and I are public swingers. Everybody in our town knows. And we've recently found out that, like, another couple that we know is also. But nobody knows. And I'm thinking, like, somebody like them, that nobody knows that they're engaging in this. And somebody's seeing something like that and how detrimental that would be to their family structure, to everything. And it's just really sad to think about. You just don't know what somebody's doing behind closed doors. Yeah, I totally agree. Yes. And I think we forget that. You know, we think that everybody lives this very cookie cutter life. And I think especially if you're not in like the non-monogamous or kink lifestyle, you and you're just a monogamous, pretty vanilla person. I think you think everybody else is kind of like you. I think if you realize that your teachers at your school, at the nurses at your hospital, they're all engaging or not all, but a lot of them are engaging in this type of relationship practice. and like think about our thoughts and like think about our feelings and feel things about our feelings which then layers like kink and complexity into all of our intimate relationships so we get to exist as animals with all of our animal instincts and then add on top of that a capacity that most creatures don't have for creativity flexibility and expansiveness and we think it's going to result in these like little boxes no it just doesn't make any sense yeah well then you know and on top of your talking about people outing people on the internet. It's actually gotten to the point where there's a local Facebook group now where they're posting guys that have like, like, so it's like, if you're trying to date a guy and you met him on Tinder or something, you can post a picture and these other girls will chime in and be like, oh yeah, he's a cheapskate. He took me on. And it's like, how taught, like these people really exist, like in our hometown. And here you have basically a wall where you're just bashing any guy that's trying to date. because maybe you had a bad experience with this. Female perspective though, okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate because like let's say you meet somebody on like Tinder or something like that and you post him and he is like a bad guy, you know, like maybe he's never been convicted of anything, but like he's not a good dude. It's kind of nice to get girls feedback, but I again on this, I can't say that about what I said earlier and not agree with you because you're right. What if that person, I don't know, I guess if they're not She loves all those groups. She follows them all. I like the tea. I want to know who's a dirty dog. I guess on the flip side, though, if they were a non-monogamous person, they should be communicating that. The flip side of that is also the internet. These people that are commenting, they could be completely just making up whatever they're saying about this person just because they enjoy the drama. I also think so one of the debates in I work in like violence prevention oriented psychology so sexual assault prevention and intimate partner violence things like that and there's like a recent ish conversation about rape or sexual assault via deception where it's like in order for consent to be legitimate it must be informed if someone gives you information that is not correct in order to convince you to have sex with them then you're which means that was like an assault of experience so for example if someone tells you oh yeah yeah i'm single and they have a wife and children at home and then you have sex with them predicated on the understanding of their singledom and it turns out that they are partnered and you would never have given consent had you known that they were partnered is your consent null and void and is that i mean it's certainly experienced as an intimate betrayal which can result in betrayal trauma and at the same time assuming a very boxed version of monogamy and we just need to get comfortable having like gritty gray nuanced conversations that in a sex negative really puritanical culture is really hard for us to get comfortable doing um so i i present to the court to the idea of rape via deception yeah that that is an interesting concept i mean it it definitely is like you're saying there there's trauma that's associated with that if it's you know manic and it goes even deeper than that you know i was in the military for 21 years and you you see these situations where like this guy had two families and like two different towns or something like that and had kids and things like that and sometimes for years and it's like one how do you do that but then two like how terrible for those people that you know are now involved in that yeah like entire foundational understanding of trust for spouses, for children, for the networks that have then observed that, being like, wow, human beings can really deceive each other at that layer of depth. It's a betrayal trauma, and it winds up being a family-networked and collective trauma, which I think the people who are being deceptive don't necessarily want to or perhaps not capable of seeing. But I've always found the rape-via-deception conversation to be so, fascinating because so much of our understanding of sexual agreeance is based on the idea of informed consent and if your consent is no longer informed is it void I just I don't have the answer to that question but it is an interesting question very interesting all right I think now is a perfect time to take a little break and hear from the partners and sponsors of the swing nation podcast and then when we come back we'll talk more with Katie Dan, if someone is just recently joining the lifestyle and they don't really know where to begin, what do you recommend? Well, the lifestyle, you know, is 2025. And people are on the internet. They are. And there just so happens to be lifestyle websites that are dedicated to people connecting in the lifestyle. Yes. SDC happens to be one of our favorites. Over 3 million users. You can find people in your area you can find clubs you can find parties all of it is right on sdc and you can get a huge discount by signing up with us you can so all you got to do is if you're looking for lifestyle people in your area if you're looking for the clubs if you're looking for the parties go to the swing nation dot info recommended apps and products scroll down to the sdc icon we'll give you a free trial yeah you can check them out you can see who's in your area you can see if it's uh if it's the app for you uh all completely risk-free So just head on over to TheSwingNation.info and get signed up for STC today. Lacey, if you're going to be a swinger, you need to be a responsible swinger. I agree. And part of being a responsible swinger is getting tested on a regular basis. Yeah. Now something I didn't know is not all STI STD testing is the same. That is correct. Not every family doctor fully understands how you should be getting tested. That is correct. What one doctor thinks is a full panel. Another doctor may have a completely different version of that. And being somebody in the lifestyle and engaging with multiple partners, what you should be getting tested for is probably, if you're not telling your doctor that, what you should be getting tested for is probably different than what they're thinking in their head. Yeah, because they don't know your lifestyle. Or even if they do know your lifestyle, there's a like, for instance, there is a new one called Imgen. And we just recently met a doctor at a and said that she had never even heard about it. And so she was awesome that we had educated her on that. So a lot of these doctors don't, they don't know it all. Right. So if you are going to participate in the lifestyle, you probably need to get tested from people that are meant to do this. Yes. So we use, I know my status. It's the same people behind talent testing who are the, there's a company that tests all the porn stars. So they're used to testing people that, um, engage with They know all the latest on what STIs are, you know, coming up and spreading and they track all the stats. I mean, they know how to test people for STIs. They're the experts. They are. And if someone that you engage with, you know, if they have used I Know My Status, they can actually give you a QR code and you can scan it and you can see their results right on your phone so you can confirm everything that they're telling you. Yeah, 100%. So please, if you're getting tested, get tested the right way. We recommend using I Know My Status. You can go to theswingnation.info, recommended apps and products. Scroll down to the I Know My Status icon and you can get a discount off your first test. But please, if you're swinging, if you're engaging with people in the community, please be safe about it. Go get tested. Yeah, because we want you to fuck like a porn star. For sure. Lacey, people are always asking, how do we get to a party or an event that you guys are hosting? How do we find these things? Where do they exist? we're pretty open about where we're gonna be so if you want to find these places you need to check out swingersidey.net right so you can go to swingersidey.net sign up for a profile most of our friends most of the people that are attend our events all are on there and have profiles so you can message them link up with them um before a party get to know some people uh please become a diamond member okay so this is the way that we are able to throw events or it's a way we're able to have staff really it's the the community that keeps those memberships that really keep this whole thing running. If you're a Diamond member, it gets you early access to tickets. So you can get those VIP tickets in the clubs and those preferred rooms at a place like Secrets. Our Diamond members usually grab all that up. So if that's something that you're interested in, you definitely want to become a Diamond member. Or if you just want to support us, support what we're doing, and help us pay our staff, please go sign up and be a Diamond member. It's super helpful for us. And you can do that. by going to swingersociety.net. Correct. And sign up today. Hopefully you come become part of our community and we hope to see you at a future event. Yeah. Thanks guys. All right guys. Welcome back. Welcome back. We're sitting down with Katie talking all things non-monogamy from kind of the psychological perspective which is kind of a new I don't know if we've had that. Sure we've done some. Yeah. So we're going to talk a little bit more about her book, which is, it's kind of funny that we're talking about this book, because one of my 2026 goals, New Year's resolution, I don't know what you want to call it, was to read more, to get myself from swiping so much. And anyway, so I went on TikTok, because I vlog every day, and I, you know, I told the people, I'm like, I need something fun for a non-monogamous person. And anyway, so people recommend it, and I've been reading the series and it's seven parts and i do really like it it's it's fun you know there's a lot of sex you know i'm into that but they own a sex club but at the end of the day everybody's monogamous like it's like they the the writer tried you know to make it like fun and different but they all probably because most people that are reading these type of books are probably monogamous so anyway i was when i was on live yesterday i was talking to you i'm like we need I need more books like this but I need my characters to be non-monogamous so it's really neat that now we're talking to you and you're talking about they own a sex club but they don't they don't swing or yeah they're they own a sex club but they're they're not more like a BDSM kind of club where oh it's a sex club yeah so they all end up monogamous I don't know anyway seems unlikely I'm like come on somebody in here has got to be non-monogamous and I'm like on the seventh book now and so far well ones I guess Polly And I was very happy about that. So anyway, it's kind of neat that now we're having this conversation and you have a book and your people are non-monogamous. So yeah. Yeah, they'll get there. So the first book follows them through their adolescence. And I wanted the crises of every book in this trilogy to grow with the characters. And there's something to me really adolescent about obsessive possessiveness and obsessive jealousy. I think that's something that, which is not to say people don't also struggle with that as they grow up in our different relationships and are in adult relationships. I think jealousy, possessiveness, and obsession plague all of us, whether we want to admit that or not. But there was something so teenage about that original sense of like, mine. And so that is very loud in the first book. but also causes these characters to do harmful things to each other because when you act from a place of really intense possessiveness, you're not always acting in the best interest of that other person. And so as these characters grow up and become more adult and more expansive in their imaginings of the world, their ideas about relational structures really change. And something I've been excited to write in later books is a sexual dynamic between two people in their 30s. and a much younger lover they take on who is 20 years old. And it's been fascinating not only to write the sort of polydynamics of this, you know, primary pairing, inviting a third into their relationship, but the age gap dynamics and the ethical conundra that it raises if you are an adult and you're taking on a lover who has an adolescent brain, even if they are absolutely of the age of consent and on the flip side if you're two people you know in their 30s and you are learning sexual ethics from someone in their 50s or 60s who's been in the in the kink and swinging scene for a long time and i'm really curious this is like a little researchy for the book but also just you know from your perspectives when the two of you have had experiences swinging with people either older or younger than you What have been some of the questions that have come up for you about, okay, what's the best way for us to do this? And has anything really surprised you about those age dynamics? No, it's, it is interesting you bring that up, because I think what you just described is somewhat common in the lifestyle is where you have, you know, couples that are established in a primary relationship, and they engage, you know, we call them unicorns. I don't know if that's a term you're familiar with. But yeah, in the swinging swinger space, that's what they call it. a single female that engages with couples. They call it a unicorn, mostly because it's hard to find. But a lot of unicorns are younger females. Or it's like somebody that got divorced or something like that. That's usually the two cases, right? It's either a younger female that's coming into this space and kind of exploring it for the first time and she's not partnered. Or it's, you know, there was a couple that was probably, they were probably swingers and then they ended up divorced. And so the female ends up being, you know, a single kind of in this space. And so you do see older couples, you know, engaging with younger females and, you know, and we've done it. We did it as recently as on the last cruise, you know, partner, she was partnered, but she was younger. Yeah. And, but I don't know, I think for the most part in this space, you don't, you don't really treat, everybody's kind of treated like an adult and, you know, you do the consent thing, but you don't really treat because somebody is in their twenties or or because somebody's in their 40s or 50s, I don't think you really, I don't think we really treat them differently. That we are probably not different, but we don't do a whole lot of emotions involved in our story. Do we get to know people? Do we care about them at a high level? Yes. We don't want anything to happen to you. We don't like date them. We don't, but we don't actively like court them and date them and really invest a whole lot of time into their emotional well-being so I guess for us maybe it really as long as they're a consenting adults and seem to have their emotions in check we don't really do much of anything extra especially if they're they're young we we I guess our role it doesn't really matter we just sort of treat them how we would anyone else now I will say that like early on when Dan and I were First married, we did have a single female that was kind of a hot mess. But we never actually slept with her. We just took her to dinner and then she became very like, you would have thought Dan rocked her world or something, but he didn't. She just was very needy and we kind of very quickly were like, this is not something. This is a no. Yeah, we're not going to entertain this because we are not going to. It's just too much emotion, too much neediness. And we're just here for a good time, not for a long time. Yeah. But I do see that if you're going to engage, if you're going to be more polyamorous and you're going to engage like long term with someone and really want to nurture that, I can definitely see where you would probably put more work into someone that's younger to make sure that they. Are overly concerned, you know, that they're OK, that they're, you know. Yeah. I mean, not to say that we don't care because we do care. We're just not... I don't know. What's the word I'm looking for, Dan? We're not... I don't know which word you're looking for. I don't know. Yeah, we care, but we don't care that much. Is that... No, I don't think it sounds awful. I don't think it does. I think... I mean, it makes sense if, as you said, like, you're there for a good time, not a long time, they're of age, they consent, and they seem like they're, you know, in their right mind, in that they're well-regulated and able to communicate with you, right? I'm curious too, if there's like, has there been a time or could you imagine a time when like maybe some pink flags are raised of like, oh, like this person doesn't have a lot of experience or this is their first time doing this or whatever, where like you would proceed, but there'd be a different type of communication. Yeah. I think like, for instance, that girl, that was definitely that we talked about. She definitely came across like very needy, very Like she definitely wanted to like talk to Dan without me. So that was definitely, that was more like red flag, but definitely like somebody like, for instance, Dan just recently played with a girl that was 22. I think she was like one of the youngest people on the cruise. And I would say that you probably handled her not with kid gloves. Cause that sounds awful, but like you were probably nicer, you know, like nicer. I don't know if that's the but you yeah you make sure like you check in a little more than you would or you you're like is this okay you look at her partner and say hey yeah are you okay with you know maybe just to take a little bit more precautions with that person to make sure that they're that everybody's on the same page like there is a standard because we're always making sure of consent we're checking in with the partner all that stuff but i think like with somebody that is so young and new to the lifestyle i think like double doing all of that is probably like the standard But I think we do that. I don't know if that's so much of an age thing as it is like an experience thing. You know, I mean, I wouldn't tie that directly to her age because I could see if there was a couple that was in their 30s or 40s. But we knew like, hey, this is their first cruise. This is their first swap. This is their first time experiencing something like this. You know, me and Lacey have done this with several couples where they're brand new to the lifestyle. And you just you just take it a little slower. You make sure that you're communicating with everybody and saying, is this OK? Is that OK? Okay, partner, hey, you see what's going on here? You're okay with that too? Yeah, yeah, everybody's good. I think we've done that. I don't know if that's so much an age thing. Is it just as a, hey, we know they're new to this, so take it slow. Because it was very recent and she was so young. So maybe that's why I'm putting the age. But you're right. We do that for anybody that's newer. It's not. We do it for everyone, but I think we go an extra step for anybody that's newer to this. I'm curious to try really hard. Yeah. But it comes through to like, even in the way that you talk about it and the way, you know, even with partner check-ins, I'm reflecting back on the, I was in a sort of poly dynamic in my, I guess, mid twenties. It was a really established couple. They were engaged in getting ready to be married. And I was there like unicorn as, you know, a young bisexual woman. I was interested in both of them. And for me, I think one of the things I'm concerned about portraying in this book, and I really want to interrogate, is the idea of almost like the manic pixie dream unicorn of like, here's this younger person who is newer to the lifestyle, and they're going to fix all of our problems, right? Maybe there's relationship conflict. Maybe there's bed death. Maybe there's some other intellectual, emotional, or sexual stagnation. And here we have, and I mean this to sound objectifying, because this is a little bit how it felt, like here we have this fresh meat in our bedroom. And I can relate to that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would love to. I was a unicorn too. And that's exactly how that I always describe myself as like the shiny new object that a couple would bring in. And, you know, sometimes the women were very by and they were like, wanted me, but a lot of them were just just like deal with him you know like if he's happy if he's content that I can go and have a lot of fun which sometimes I didn't mind you know because I definitely I'm bi but I'm definitely love a penis probably more so a lot of times I would be okay with that but then other times it almost felt like I don't know like I was just there their babysitter or their sex object yeah It's a toy. It's a play toy. Yes. Yeah. It's like, how many holes do I have? Like the whole fleshlight effect of like, I want to be here as a full human being. Yeah. But on the flip side, that was also kind of why I was in the lifestyle. I wasn't looking for like these deep, romantic, deep emotions. I wanted to have hot sex and get to go home and not have to deal with any of the bullshit that comes with it, with being a part, you know, in a partner relationship. I just wanted to show up, have fun and then leave. And so, yeah, sometimes it was hard because I did feel like that shiny object or, you know, the sex doll or the sex toy. But on the flip side, sometimes that was awesome because then I didn't have to deal with the husband and the wife the next day when they were arguing over, you know, I just got to go home. And so it was like it had its good points and its bad points. I hear that so loudly. And I'm also hearing both of us layer like a kink dynamic or philosophy onto this, maybe without naming it. it of like okay say you are this like um this unicorn coming in or like the manic pixie dream third and at the same time you have a kink dynamic that's like more submissive or submissively oriented and so the idea of like objectification dehumanization humiliation degradation play etc is enticing like there's something sexy about it but then you do have to go home and like feel your feelings about it and be They're like, oh, I really was just treated like, you know, whatever kind of thing they needed. And like, yeah, it was fun in the moment. But like, did you get sufficient aftercare? Did they like make sure you were back to your personhood afterwards? Like, did you have to tend to your personhood then by yourself? Like, that's sort of how it felt for me. And I was like, this is a great skill. Yeah, it did for me too. And what's funny is, we have a friend who is recently divorced in the last year, and she's engaging in a, you know, being a unicorn. And she says she loves it till the end of the night. She misses her partner. She was a swinger in the lifestyle. She misses having her husband to go home to bed and debrief on the night. And I get that. I can 100% get that. So I think for people listening to this, if you engage with unicorns or single people, I think this is a good thing to listen to because you don't want the women that you're engaging with to feel this way. So I think this is a good thing for people to hear. Especially, go for it. Well, flip that though. Because say we engage with a single female. Do you want them sticking around and cuddling? Stick around and cuddle. So what she's saying is two things can be true. I don't really want to be like, I enjoy the fact that I get to just hop in and have sex. and then I get to go home. But also, I think there's a way that you can still do that, but still be respectful. You could still check in. You could still be like, hey, we had a great time. You know, like, I think there's ways to, like, still treat someone like a human without, like, laying in the bed and caressing them for four hours after you're done. You know, so I guess it would depend on each person's needs. Correct. And I just think, like, communication around that is probably the best way to handle it. And I think too, a lot of the labor that I've seen E&M and like poly couples perform has wound up being fairly gendered where like the person to do the like emotional wellness check the next day of like, hey, babe, how are you feeling? We had fun. Hope you had fun. Good luck with your next escapade or whatever has been like the wife, like the woman partner or the girlfriend or whatever. And the people who like are really absolved of doing that emotional work for, or a third or a guest or whatever are the men. And so then I'm looking at you. Talk to your men people. Yeah. But also you have to communicate between the couple because that might upset the wife the next day. You know, if the husband is overly eager to like check in and coddle this single girl that came in. So I think like, I think that's such a good point. Yeah. I think it totally depends on the relationship. I think that the husband and wife say need to say, okay, she came. We don't want to treat her like an object. She might like that, but we need to like, we need to check in. So do you want me to do it? Are you comfortable? Are you want to do it? You know, I just think in a message or something. Yeah, I think every couple is going to have a different dynamic, you know, so I think like, as long as they're like communicating and talking about it, I think that it's as long as someone does it, I think that's okay. I'd rather someone do it than no one do it. Yeah, and I also feel like if you're going to be the And the unicorn in the third, as y'all were saying before, like acknowledging too that that rehumanization process, if that's like not something that a couple that you're playing with has on offer of like, listen, we're not going to hold you for four hours afterwards. Like that's not our dynamic. That's not what we do with guests or playmates. Learning what those skills are for yourself so that when you get home, you can reenter like a different kind of humanity is not exactly. Exactly what I mean, like sexual subjectivity, maybe, or like a different form of wholeness. You'd call it like sub drop, right? Like that's what. Yeah. Like when you're dealing with sub drop, but I think there's something really particular about like, you know, if you're, if you're subbing with someone and then you have sub drop, but they are your partner and you have access to aftercare, like that's a very different sociosexual resourcing than if you are the unicorn or the visitor, and then you have sub drop and you're home by yourself. and you don't have like a dom who is there for your aftercare. It's like, oh shit, I have to like be in my feelings by myself now. And so it's important insight to be like, am I able, do I have the skills to take care of myself sufficiently in that context? And if not, what skills do I need to develop if I really am finding this like lifestyle and style of play rewarding? Like we can figure it out. I'm not saying that's like not an option for people, but it's, it's good to remind yourself to build the skills one piece of advice that I do give like if you'll like come in and say they're unicorns what advice is one thing I didn't realize is that I could have my own boundaries you know like when you think of like boundaries you think of them like around a couple like the couple like plays together they wear protection they you know whatever no kissing they could have a laundry list but as a single girl I because I kind of just threw myself in the line so I didn't really realize that like wait a second I am my own like entity and I can have my own boundaries and so I would say that like learning yourself and like learning what you need and then up front yeah you come you come in with it up front and just and you can meet a couple and you could totally hit it off but maybe they don't provide something that you need well then you know that like maybe that's not one that you you want to actively play with because there's so many couples out there that want to engage with females that you kind of have like your pick. So if you just kind of put it out there what you're looking for, like if you do need that four hours of cuddle, if you put that out there, there's going to be someone that's going to meet that emotional need if that's something that you need. And so that's something that I didn't quite realize and think until towards the end of, you know, by the time I met Dan was I needed to advocate for myself and my own needs and put out there exactly what I needed for this to be a success. And I just sort of was like going with every couple's boundaries and their needs and kind of putting those first. And so I think if they're a single guy or a single girl, I think regardless, I think you have the right to have your needs met and communicate those needs or boundaries, however you want to look at it. Totally. And I think too about the like evidence-based skills in therapy and in BDSM spaces that would apply here of like, if I have a client and I'm talking them through sexual We talk about a will-won't-want list of here's what I'm willing to do, here are my hard limits and boundaries, and here are things that I really desire. And often, I'll talk to people, not only clients, but people in my life who don't really know what those are because of limited experience. And so this is from the sex therapy perspective and the writer perspective of literally write out, if you can, your best-case scenario and your worst-case scenario. of like if everything went really, really well playing with the couple, this is like my dream scenario of what would happen. And then if things really went off the rails in a way that I found like harmful, this is what would happen and be able to articulate that to the people. First of all, articulate it to yourself and then be able to articulate it to the people you're going to play with. Yeah, I think a lot of people just want to have hot sex and they just hop into this not knowing that things could go very badly, like not preparing themselves. for what happens when, like, if you're the man, your dick doesn't get hard, but then your wife's getting, like, you know, her mind blown on the other side of the room. Like, how is that going to feel? So I think you're writing all that down or at least talking about it. What happens if this happens? I think it's a good thing. Yeah. And the gut check, too, is so vital when it comes to sex at all. Like, maybe you don't have to do all of that preparatory labor. Maybe you meet people and they seem lovely and trustworthy and your body gets a good vibe. around them. And then you go and you have mind blowing sex and it's great. And you don't have to have spoken through all of the will won't want best case, worst case, et cetera. But again, it's just like adding to your skill set, adding to your arsenal. Yeah. And I think, you know, I feel like swingers are pretty good at the, hey, prior to engaging in sex, these are our rules. These are our boundaries. I think for the most part, I think most of us are pretty good at that. But I do think the post stuff is almost non-existent. You don't see that a lot in the space. Some couples are pretty good about, you know, sending a text or something the next day. You know, I had a good time last night. Thanks, guys. You know, or something like that. But it definitely doesn't get to the level of like BDSM. And when you talk about like, you know, sub drop and aftercare and all that kind of stuff. I think that's something our community just isn't super great at. Yeah. Well, I think because it's. For so long, it's been like the swinging lifestyle has been like emotionless or supposed to be. You know, it's just hot hookups. You just hook up, and then you go your separate ways. And so, but I do feel like I've seen, like, even a shift just in you and us dynamic. Now, you know, we used to play with somebody once or twice, and then we never talk to them or see them again. And that still happens some, but for the most part, people that we engage with are our friends that we've gotten to know and that we care about. And so, like, now we do a lot of those follow-up stuff just organically because they're people that we talk to. all the time, you know, so I think for us, the lifestyle has kind of shifted, but I think overall, a lot of swingers don't engage, you know, like they, they want those hot hookups and then you, you peace out and you never talk to them. Which might be the best case scenario for a swinging couple. Right. Yeah. It depends. Like some couples, that's what they're, they like only want to engage one time with a couple and then they don't want to, you know, you know they don't want to get too close they it's almost a thing that they do to protect their marriage and we probably would have said that at some point about ourselves but i definitely find that the longer we've done this the more we've allowed some emotions to come in yeah i think the more secure you feel i mean i think the longer you do this the more secure you feel in that primary relationship so you're almost a little more willing to expose yourself to those emotions Yeah, there's less risk. It just feels less risky. Yeah. Which totally makes sense to me. Yeah, because when you first start, you're afraid. Oh, yeah. How many emails do we get a week that says, we really want to try this, but I'm afraid my partner's going to fall in love with somebody, or I'm afraid we're going to end up divorced, or I'm afraid. There's a whole bunch of fear, I think, initially coming into it. And I think what happens is like you do it once and you're like, oh, I still love you, you know, and then like, and then you do it, you know, and then like slowly you kind of start peeling back those layers. And at some point you realize that like you can do this and like then still go have breakfast with the couple the next morning and like laugh and like nobody's leaving each other for each other, you know, like we can have sex and do these fun things, but still maintain our primary relationship. All right, Katie. Well, we're getting short on time, but I wanted to give you a little bit of time to plug yourself. So if people are interested in this conversation and the things you've said here, where can they find your book? Where can they find more about you? Yeah, absolutely. So you can follow me on social media on Instagram at KWBogan or KWBogan underscore books for my author account. I'm also on TikTok and Instagram. and upscrolled also at KW Bogan all over the place. The book is called Queering Him. It is the first in the Avra and Kieran trilogy. It is incredibly kinky, erotic, bisexual. I hope y'all absolutely enjoy it. And then if you're interested in more of my psych-oriented research, you can follow me, Catherine Vella Bogan, on Google Scholar, which is where most of my academic papers wind up being posted. and thank you both so so so so much for having me i think lacy just ordered your book no i just added it i have the goodreads i have the goodreads app so i just added it to my wants to read because i wanted to if i put it in there now while you say it i won't forget because otherwise i'll start doing something else so i wanted hell yeah i've been looking for another book so i'm excited yeah lacy's been reading all these sex books and then we're driving down the highway and she's like i need you to fuck me and i'm like baby we're going 80 miles an hour right now i don't think You're about to be going 80 miles an hour, yeah. It benefits you to let me, or not let me, for me to read sex books, though. I hear that from couples all the time. It's like, let me read my steamy novel, and then I will drag you to the bedroom. Good for all of us. Yeah, because a lot of times I'll read, like, before bed and stuff, and I'll be like, we go to bed at different times. We're one of those couples. It works for us, but I'll text them from the bed. I'm like, hey, come in here. And he's like, you're just reading that book. Just take it. Just take it. It's hot. Yeah. Well, I hope you enjoy the book and that you find it inspirational. I'm sure I will. All right. Well, anything else you want to tell the Swing Nation listeners before we go? I would say the wisdom of swingers, E&M folks, poly folks, kink practitioners, BDSM practitioners are all of these really stunning Venn diagrams. And gosh, if we could get our community, to like talk to each other lovingly. I feel like there's so much wisdom to glean. I took so much away from this conversation and just thank you for having me. I'm really delighted to have been here. Thank you. And thanks for doing it. If y'all don't know where, how, what time is it there where you are? Uh, three o'clock in the afternoon. I'm in Paris. Yeah. Okay. It's 8 a.m. in the U S we're in the Southern central time. So yeah, we got up early and she adjusted her schedule for us. So we made it word. Y'all are the best. Thank you. Of course. Thank you, Katie. It was a great conversation and we appreciate you spending some time with us. All right. Well, I think with that, in a world full of apples. Be the pineapple. Be the pineapple, guys. Bye. Bye. If you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us, we have a five-star review wherever you're listening. If you want to see more of our content, you can find links to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, OnlyFans and more in the show notes. Come join the conversation with us and other Swinger content creators on our Swinger Society Discord server. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at theswingnation at gmail.com. Make sure you head on over to theswingnation.net and keep up to date on all things Swing Nation. We thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time. Goodbye. That's so hot.