Wild Love Theory with Naughty Gym

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast is intended for adult audiences. Over the age of 18, it contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to us, and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice. Welcome to the Swing Nation podcast. A podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle. Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe. Interview the experts, learn and grow together. Join the nation. Hey there, pineapple people. And welcome to the swing nation podcast. We are your host, Northern guy and Southern girl. And we are back with an exciting episode. We actually have people in the studio this time. They're the only people that have ever came. Oh wait, Diana came one time. And this is our second time. It's your second time in the studio. Yeah. And yeah, you're only the, you're the third people to come here and you've come here twice. Yeah. Good for you. But we've got Scott and April. Naughty Jim here. And they're here to talk about their new book called Wild Love Theory. That's getting ready to come out in, what did you say, July? It's going to be a soft release in July, we think, and a full release. The book's done, but it's going to come out officially on Amazon probably in September. So we're going to talk about your book. We're going to get in a little in-depth on that. But then we also, you guys are here to tease a little, you're involved in the purchase of possibly a lifestyle resort in Florida. And this is still in the works. So we can't say too much, but we're going to tease it a little bit. We're going to talk about it a little bit. Because there might be some opportunities for people that are looking to get involved with something like that. Yeah, it's happening. And we have to be careful not to make the people at the SEC mad because we say stuff we're not supposed to. Okay. So we're going to dance around that, but put out the information we need to put out about that. So stay tuned to the end because that's when we're going to talk about that. But I think we want to start with this book. So tell us Wild Love Theory. What does that even mean? So we, it really, the book sort of was born through our relationship. And we realized that like a lot of us that have, you know, explored non-monogamy, you start out with this huge list of rules, right? And usually that set of rules shrinks over time. And that's a pattern you see across most relationships. And it seemed to us to be more indicative of a real underlying structural issue that had never been addressed. and we felt like maybe it should continue that way. Maybe throughout the course of your relationship those rules should continue to drop because quite frankly most of those rules and maybe all of them arguably are a response to some insecurity or fear that we have. 100%. I think every time we make a rule it's because something has triggered something within us and then we're like oh we need to do something to protect ourselves from that. Or even social conditioning. Not necessarily fear but it could just be the way you were raised or religious upbringing. Yeah, that fear could be from our upbringing. And that's the typical pattern. Before we get too deep into that, why don't you just introduce, in case for some reason our listeners don't know who you are or they haven't come across you before. I got a little bit ahead, I think, driving straight into the book. But tell us a little bit about Naughty Gym and now that and a little bit about you guys. Okay, so Naughty Gym is an online fitness and lifestyle platform where we program workouts, nutrition, but it's also a platform for anybody in the sex-positive space. So LGBTQ, E&M, kink, poly, whatever. We do weekly lives. We have different experts in there in every facet, religion, somatic sexologist, therapist. So it's just an online community where you can kind of be yourself, take care of yourself. But then we also host lifestyle events all over the world. Next week, we actually have one in the Smoky Mountains for our book, Wild Love Theory Retreat. Barcelona, El Salvador, Jamaica, one at Hedonism. So yeah, our main focus is connecting people. So we're not a super sex forward. We are connection focused. So sex can happen and does happen as a result of those connections. But yeah, that's basically, it's NaughtyGym.com. All of our information, events, everything's on our website. So you guys, you started as, you guys owned a CrossFit gym, right? And then COVID it happened and you started this naughty gym platform and that kind of took off and then you got outed because of the platform which we talked about on your first so go back and listen to that podcast episode uh and then from that you guys started doing you know once you got outed and all that stuff happened you started throwing lifestyle events and really have become you know pretty bigger players in the lifestyle industry and you know have been throwing parties and events and you guys are i think you were different you know we talk about all the time how like you got to connect with like your You guys are definitely like that. Fitness forward. Connection. Let's work out in the morning and then party and fuck at night. Let's sleep in to noon and then have lunch and then go party. But I love that it doesn't matter what you're into. There's a space for everyone. And you can also do a little bit of both. Sometimes we just want to party and have fun and not think about that. But other times we want to go and do yoga and relax and really connect. So I love that no matter what you're into and what your vibe is, you can find your groups and that is the beautiful thing about the lifestyle community is you can go from community to community like you guys offer stuff that we send people we're like you'll love this event go to it and sometimes people will come to our events and they're like that really wasn't a fit but there is so much to offer and so so well that's what we always tell people the key to the lifestyle is really finding your community like you know i i can only imagine how many people go to some random like hotel takeover or meet and greet and they're like those were that was not the party for me and never come back or go to anything again. I think it really is key that people understand there's a million different types of communities out there. And there's niche ones that, you know, if you're somebody that really likes skiing and doing all that and then having sex with, you know, your friends at night, like there's a community for that. And I think that's an important message. So then, okay, so now fast forward, you kind of get your backstory. So then when did this conversation about wild love theory, like how did this even come up? So Scott had actually been twirling it around in his head for much longer than I knew. And it was on a podcast, was it two years ago? Around Christmas time. Well, a year and a half. You guys have your own podcast, The Naughty Jim Show, right? It's on YouTube and? YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. And so live on a podcast, unbeknownst to me, he presented Wild Love Theory. But the way he presented it, it's a lot more refined now. But what I heard was, I'm taking all rules off of you in the life you have no rules and not just the lifestyle but anywhere come and go freely date who you want fuck who you want essentially do what you want and because i've always been the brakes and he's always been the gas i took that as he is saying that because he wants me to say that to him yeah and i'm not saying that to him yeah he wants to go and date everybody and be wild and have well i think that's what most swingers i think when people bring up swinging to their partner that's usually what people are afraid of. It's like, oh, you're just telling me I can fuck other people because you want to fuck other people. What's wrong with me? What don't you like about me? I think that's a natural response. Honestly, I don't blame anybody for feeling that way. It is a natural response, but there is something behind it. That's when I actually hired a new therapist because I'm like, he has never breached my trust. I'm like, why am I not trusting him when he's literally telling me I don't want reciprocity? I want to give this freedom to you because I want to see you grow into your own self. This is outside of the lifestyle too. You were kind of explaining it to us before we started. If he wants to go play pickleball three times a week, you can. It is lifestyle, but it is much bigger than that. If I want to take a weekend away by myself or a girls weekend, I can do whatever I want. This theory isn't specific to non-monogamy. This is more of a relationship theory than it really is. We spend a lot of time in the book talking about non-monogamous examples of the theory, because that's where you're going to have the hardest time. Like, for instance, if you're a monogamous couple, wild love theory works regardless of whether you're monogamous, non-monogamous. It doesn't matter the structure. It's structurally neutral. But those are the types of questions you're going to face, especially if you're monogamous and you hear, oh, you're telling me I should do it. Because as soon as you say there are no rules, the first rule you're going to think about is, well, can I fuck other people? Right. Well, that rule is going to at least come up in conversation. You should. And if the theory holds when it's being tested under that extreme of a condition, it'll hold under the pickleball problem. It'll hold under any kind of situation because that's the toughest thing, at least for most of us, to deal with, is the idea of our partner in some capacity being with other people. Most of us in the lifestyle have gotten over maybe part of that hump. Like at least a sexual part. Yeah, we're good with certain things, but maybe not everything. And the seed of this was that I felt like there needed to be some sort of foundation. that could help guide this process. Right now, we all seem to have that similar experience like we talked about where our rules tend to get less and less as we go. There's no guiding process for that. It's just sort of random. And like you said, if we have a dust up, we tend to, instead of fixing the insecurity, we create a rule. And when we create that rule, we take, you put a rule on Lacey and all of a sudden Lacey now has to stop doing something that she probably would like to be able to do. But in order to manage your sense of safety and relational security and insecurities. She agrees to that rule. Well, now you've put that imposition on her. And now in some way, she's not who she really truly is. She's wearing a bit of a mask to soothe your insecurity. Well, that's what I was doing. That's what scared me more than anything. And I think the truth behind me pushing back against that was now I'm going to have to look at my issues and fix them because it's not a him problem. me that freedom and me not wanting it is a me thing. And me trying to put more rules on him to keep me safe is also a me thing. So I had to really unpack and sit with some really heavy emotions and work through things. And that discomfort is where you get more expansive, right? Like there were times where I had to pause and I'd be like, I'm feeling too many big feels. Like I can't do this. Like, let's take a break before we talk about it. And sometimes that would be a month, two months. Sometimes it would be two days. But I want to allow him to have that freedom. And I wanted to allow myself to have that same freedom. And so being discomfort doesn't mean something's bad. And fear doesn't mean something's bad. And so if you grow up, maybe you're anxious attachment, avoid, you know, PolySecure talks about all the different attachment styles. That's a you problem that you have to heal so that you can be more expansive with your partner and show up more. for yourself and your partner. So it was just two weeks ago or April 1st that I took all rules off of him. For 30 days. After two years of working through a wild love theory. I'm in the middle of a 30 day hall pass right now. And then at the end of the 30 days, we'll come back to it. It's kind of like a relationship agreement and we'll discuss like, am I dysregulated still? And if I'm having trouble regulating, he's so gracious and patient. and kind. And because he loves me, he'll be like, good, let's pause for however long you need until you can build the capacity where you regulate easier. And it is, it's a process like working a muscle. Like it's going to be sore for a while. Take a break, take a rest day, work it again. It's going to be sore for a while. And that's what we've found this process has been like. And it has not been easy. I mean, she's talked about how she got angry when I first presented it. And part of the problem is I thought I was going to do this on the podcast and it'd be like, Like a great conversation. Oh, we're going to have this. And it's going to be like an epiphany. And here she's like getting mad at you. And you're probably like, oh, do I need to cut this camera off? Oh, we've gotten in fights on the podcast. I thought I was coming in as the hero. You're free and you're welcome. Well, and he presented it at the time as I'm giving you this freedom. And I was like, bitch, you don't own me. Yeah. Right. If I wanted freedom, I'd just fucking leave. I'm choosing to be here. Well, and that's one of the distinctions. We've presented this at different workshops, at different events and stuff. One of the confusing things, and we go to great length to explain this in the book, wildlife theory is not no rules. It is just an orientation towards turning, towards giving your partner back the sovereignty that we tend to take from them. If she or you have things that the other will not allow them to do, and it's something that you would otherwise like to be able to do, that is part of it. of your sovereignty and autonomy that has been taken from you. I'm not saying there is a time and a place for that. And it's not malicious. No, it's not. It's not mean-spirited. And we call it scaffolding in the book. And, you know, we explain it. But if that becomes a permanent thing, it is a permanent diminishment of who you are as a person. Now, you may never be able to let that rule or imposition go. You may have so much trauma in your background. You may work for two or three years. Lacey may say, I've worked for three years. and stress myself out to try to give you this freedom to do X, whatever X is. And she's just spent thousands in therapy and stress. Well, maybe that's time to just call it on that one and say, look, yes, that's something I'd love to be able to do, but it is too much work for you, too much hardship. I don't want it that badly. But at least she tried and or at least you tried. And so that's that's part of what or that's the biggest thrust of the book is to try to get back the sovereignty. and agency of every human being to be able to live the life on the outside that matches what they want on the inside. And it can be done, but it has not been an easy process for us. And we feel like we're now starting to really get over the hump of that. But there's also no finish line because every relationship is different, just like the lifestyle. Everybody approaches it differently. And so the book is not saying the ultimate goal is no rules or the ultimate goal is X, Y, Z. It's saying, How can I create more freedom and autonomy in my relationship? And maybe that's just one or two small steps to expand it. And even those one or two small steps make such a huge difference in your partner and yourself being your true self, that self-congruence. And we see that in the lifestyle all the time. Like you probably started with a lot of rules and then you took one off and realized that wasn't that big a deal. We actually did the opposite because me and Lacey met in the lifestyle and we were both swingers separately. So she was like a unicorn and I was a bull. We started with no rules and then we quickly went, oh shit, this is not going to work because, you know. So kind of like what you did, we actually did 30 days monogamous to kind of like, and it ended up being a little longer just because of the holidays, but just kind of like build a foundation there because we're certainly, like some people they've been dating for or married for 20 years and then decide to swing. They have that foundation built there. We did not. So we kind of had to like force it. We started with like, we know we like each other. But we're both going around and doing whatever the hell we want. But we don't really have the trust and foundation to trust each other to be doing that. But since we've been doing that and that's how we came together and met, we're going to keep doing that. But it's not working because I don't even know you enough to trust you. You know, so it was a kind of a... We came at it from like the exact opposite. Well, that's such a great segue because in the book we talk about those exact same, the foundations that every relationship needs, whether you're monogamous or not. You got to have trust. You got to have honesty. You got to be able to communicate well. Wild Love Theory doesn't address those at all. it assumes them and if you don't have a solid baseline of that kind of stuff wild love theory is a little too early right now you know right so we almost had to like stop and be like we need to reset make sure we're good at least like is this even something we want to do are we even compatible before we can go like sharing each other should we is this can we do this can can this work in the long run are we just kind of like wasting each other's time just making sure your values align yeah right but i give you know a lot of the success i think of of mine and Lacey's relationship is because we came at it from that opposite. We almost like came out of it from, let's figure out all the ways this is going to fail. Right? Like that's, I mean, literally that's how when I, when I, when me and Lacey were like, first of all, I was trying to convince her that we are not going to work. Like, listen, I live eight hours away. I got kids in this state. You got kids in this state. Like, I like fucking a lot of women. Like, I'm going to break your heart. Like, and I was just trying to convince her on how the ways our relationship wouldn't work. And not because I didn't want to be with her. But it's because I had been in a long-term relationship and had winter divorce. I just didn't want to experience that trauma again. So I was like, I'm not doing this. I'm telling you, this isn't going to work because of X, Y, Z. And then we kind of worked through every one of those issues and found a resolution for it. So it was really like a backwards way of doing a relationship. If anything comes up or anything, we know. We did that years ago. It's not a big deal for us. So it's definitely... You said something that stuck out. out to me. You said something about wearing it like the mask has come off. I feel like, obviously I'm not doing the wild love theory, but I guess there's layers of masks. And I guess I never thought of that because I remember when we were outed and everybody found out about it. And I felt like, oh my God, I can finally be me for all these years. I've had this mask on and I pretended to be somebody other people wanted. So I never thought that there's another layer until you said that. But you're right. Right. If you do this, you're uncovering more layers. Yeah, for sure. I had spent the last couple years asking myself, what do I want? I was married for 17 years, took care of kids, ran a business, got married again. And I go into a caregiver mode because I'm a people pleaser. And so I'm like, why? I was feeling burnt out. He had given me this freedom and I couldn't use it. And Scott had asked me before, like, what is it that you actually want? And I'm like, oh my god, I have no idea. I've never allowed myself to ask that. I've never been asked that by somebody else. Like, apart from my kids, my business, my husband, their ecosystems, what is it that I actually fucking want? I've been sitting here thinking about that as we've been talking, and the only thing I can think of is, like, to go to the beach by myself. Right. Nobody talk to me. Just leave me alone. But, like, honestly, what do we want? But in things like that, though, same. Yeah. dream past that, like actually plan it. Like, what would that look like? Like, where would I eat? Like all of that kind of stuff. And so there was a day and for 10 years. So, um, I had been telling Scott, like my plate is full last fall. I got to a point where I was so burnt out in caretaking and business stuff that I told Scott, um, I need you to go away for a week. I need you to be away from me. And by the way, this was in the height of us working through all the concepts of the book. Like the most stressful time of our relationship. And I was like, I need to just not care give. I need to take care of myself and not think about anybody else. And what that ended up being in the book now is called imposed burdens. So it's all of those things that you pick up because somebody else won't or can't. Kids stuff, business stuff, taxes, all of the stuff that Scott would sweetly say, I don't like doing it. So I'm like, well, I'll do it. And I never could put words to it because he's the kindest man I know. He's tender. He doesn't raise his voice. He's never said an unkind word to me. But I was still feeling like he was putting something on me that I couldn't vocalize. And for years, I'm like, yeah, he'd be like, aren't you happy? Like, do I treat you good? I'm like, yeah, but there's something weighing me down and I can't explain it. to explain it to him in a way that he could understand yeah because the big you know the the book was essentially about trying to get people to understand that instead of while you put a rule in place on somebody also be working on the insecurity that caused that rule and so so that you can eventually remove it so they know i think yeah that's just like in the lifestyle right so if you have a no kissing rule or something like that or whatever the case may be it's like well why what is it about that that makes me uncomfortable right and which She agreed with that, except she just never could lean into this newfound freedom. And we were sitting on rowers at the gym one day when it hit her what it was. She's like, I'm just exhausted. I know I could go out Friday night and go, you know, getting an eight guy orgy and they're just railing me in the bathroom at the club. But I'd rather sit here in my pajamas because I just got done doing the dishes. I just got done doing the taxes. I don't care. I don't have the energy to do it. And we realized that that was just as much an imposition on her as any rule, maybe worse than any rule I had ever had on her. So that became the two-part imposition part of wild love theory that you can have the normal impositions that we're all aware of. You can't do this. You can't do that. Don't do this. But you can also be sort of structurally limited from enjoying any freedom because you have to go do this. You have to get the admin work done. You have to get your laundry done. You have to take care of the kids. And I think I'm being a good guy because I'm going, hey, baby, I'll do anything you want. Just tell me what you want cleaned. Do you want vacuumed the house? Right. Or look at me, I helped you with the dishes, which implies it's my job. I'm like, but we're partners in this together. So why am I thanking you for doing my dishes? Like, it just didn't make sense to me. And she had been saying this stuff for 10 years. And it took, and this is not, this is horrible on my part, but it took something as important to me as this book for me to finally go, holy fuck. She's free to do whatever she wants. And I've been such a shitbag in this aspect of our relationship that she can't even go out and enjoy that freedom because she's so exhausted. And it's become a huge part of the book. Now, we had to rewrite whole swaths of the book to get this part in there, but it may be the most important part now. Well, and he hired an emotional burden coach who usually works with women to help talk to their husband through picking up some of those burdens. and what she did was I was on their first call together she just made a list of every task that you would do in a day in a month in a year and broke it down who does it and you could see the imbalance like my name was like everything was it wasn't like 60 40 it was more like it was like 80 20 and so she said well let's balance this what can you take off and then she said April when you give him a task write a SOP for it so he knows exactly how to because as soon as he comes to me and says, how do I do this? I've moved back into that management role. And I'm not his mom. I'm not his manager. I don't want to micro. And she said, don't remind him. And if he doesn't do it, don't do it. Oh, that's hard. It's fucking hard. It is. Those are the hard things. But it has. I would be curious if we made a list like that, what it would look like. I think, I feel like we're probably more balanced than what you're describing. Yeah, I think we are too. I think it would probably still be heavily in my category, I would guess. There probably are things that I don't think about. I know there is. And then we would probably have to put your mom on our list too because there's quite a few things that now that she lives with us that she's taken off of our place. I think what you're bringing up is like every marriage. I mean like there's a person in every marriage and then there's like somebody that thinks they do everything but then they don't realize what the other person does. That's kind of like half of Dana's. Well and having a tangible list even for imposed rules or imposed burdens being able to see that and where the imbalance And if you have a loving partner, you know, hopefully they'll be like, well, let me step up. I wouldn't even know how to make a list though. Like, and you guys are similar to us because, you know, you throw, you have a podcast and you do, you know, events and stuff like that. Like there's so many things on my list that I don't even know. They're not daily things. They're just random. Well, most of ours weren't about that part though. Ours was more of the everything but that, that she was handling most of that. And, and, uh, it's just stuff that you kind of don't think about. Like, She did tell me this stuff for 10 years. She's been telling me. But all of a sudden, I realized I'm trying to be, I want to be this great husband. I want to give her the freedom to live her life the way she wants to live it. And I had no idea how impossible that was simply because I asked too much of her in other areas of our life. And that seems like an obvious thing to realize, but for whatever reason, it just never sunk in until, And it's only been two or three months, but having some of those burdens removed for me has been incredible. Like, honestly, it has helped me get to the place where just April 1st, I took, I was like, for 30 days, let's try taking all rules off of you. Because what was happening, like the last time we went to Hedo, he was like, can I explore like removing a boundary? And I was like, fine, kiss anybody you want to. Well, here's the problem. We're working that event. I have all of these burdens. Like, where's what's being set up? Where are our hosts? Is the team in? Well, he's making out with everybody in the pool. And I'm like, this is no fucking fun for me. Like, I was so stressed out that by the end of that trip, I'm like, I can't do this. I don't want to do this. Like, experimenting, removing boundaries while I'm working is not a good idea. And so the last three months, having the freedom to dream, to kind of come and go when I want to, which, of course, I'm not going to abuse it because he's my person. And we check in all the time. But I have gone on some solo dates for the first time. And had fun. And had fun. Like allowed myself to do what I wanted to do in that moment without any thoughts of anybody else. And that was really the first time in over 20 years that I had experiences like that. And now I'm like, I want you to also have that freedom. And we'll explore it for 30 days. At the end of 30 days, we'll come back, have, you know, our relationship agreement meeting and see where we're at, how regulated I am, if we need to pause for a second or what comes next. And it was interesting when she finally went on that first separate date. This was a huge step for both of us. And I thought, I'm ready. I've been doing this in turn. Before I presented the theory to her on that first podcast, she got mad. I had been working through this in my head for months and months thinking, I'm not going to present it to her unless I'm confident I don't need that reciprocity. this to her. I can't offer this to you with the hook of, but you have to do it to me too. With conditions. So months I've been working through this. So I thought I was ready until that first time she went out on that date. And man, that is just, you just never know what you're going to feel like until you go through there. We've been there. We've done that too. And it was horrible. And during COVID, we, you know, because obviously there was nothing going on. And Lacey was kept being like, I want you to go fuck some girl. I'm like, Lacey has like, I've not gone to a swimmer club for like six months got like your brain crazy because I know you and you do not want me to do that and so like it turned into like we'd be fucking and almost every time we'd go to fuck she'd start talking about how she wanted me to go fuck some girl and I'm like I'm just thinking she's just dirty talking and she's like no seriously like we got done fucking it was like you know the endorphins have calmed down and she's like no really I think you should message one of those girls that used to fucking go and see if you can hook up with them and I'm like and we went and did it and she lost her shit I did the second he sent the text I was like oh Oh God, what did I do? But I didn't want him to know that I felt that way. So I tried to pretend like I was okay. And I wasn't. That doesn't work. Well, that's part of, that's the big, that's a big part of the book is to try to, there's no right now, there's no guidance or structure for how to do that. How do you do that? How do you work through those issues? And that's what the book is trying to solve is here's, it's not, it's not an attempt to make it easy. It's not easy. This work is not, non-monogamy is not easy in general. And this is a step above that because it, It's trying to get you to take, you know, all of the limiters off if you're capable. And that work is difficult, but at least it gives you a structure and a path to understand exactly what's happening, to identify all the issues, and to create a plan for working through it. It's not a solution. It is more of a highlight to where all the issues actually lie, and it's an encouragement. She's going on, what, three, four dates now? They've gotten progressively easier. The first one that she went on, I probably thought about it for two weeks every second of every day until that date happened. Trying to be like you were talking about. I was trying to be the big guy. Well, yeah, that's what I was going to say. Here's something that we've just talked about recently was he, because he knew how dysregulated I could get, would temper down how excited he was about another woman or an experience or how hot somebody was because he was afraid it would make me uncomfortable Yes, every husband on earth probably is, right? Yeah. Finally, I was like, you're doing a disservice to me because I'm trying to do this work. I need to feel those uncomfortable feelings so I know what to do with them. But if I can sense it and you're not telling me, now I'm creating a narrative in my head that you're lying to me or there's more there than because you're not telling me. And so I'm like, I need you to be fully transparent. If you're scared, if you're jealous, if you're excited, I want to know. all of that, because I can only do the real work if I have all of the information. And one of the biggest, so there, we take it a step further in the book by not just saying, hey, this is a, you know, this is a possible path forward. There's an ethical obligation, we think, to not diminish your partner. Now, that does not mean that, for instance, let's say you're a cheater. You've cheated on her eight times. That doesn't mean she should go, yeah, you know, I know you've cheated eight times, But no rules. I don't want to hold you back. Right. That's not what we're saying here. That goes back to the parts of the book that we don't talk about. Those foundational issues that every relationship, regardless, not even romantic, just friendship relationship. You got to be able to trust people and those sorts of things. If you don't have that, you know, put wild love theory back on the shelf. You've got more important issues to deal with. But we have a thing in the book called the freedom mandate, which means that you should not buy your own emotional stability by editing. your partner. In other words, and that's what we do when we put rules on them, right? We say, look, I'm dysregulated. I'm hurt. I'm bothered, whatever. The solution to that is for you to change, not me. For you to become less than who you truly would like to be so that I can feel safe. The better answer, we think, is to temporarily put a rule in place. We call it scaffolding in the book. It's representative scaffolding around the building. You're helping hold the structure until it hardens. Right. You put it in place until the building has the capacity to stand on its own and then you remove it. That could be two weeks. That could be two years. It may take a lot of work. But we feel like you owe that to the person you say you love more than anybody else to say, look, instead of me trying to change who you are as a person, I'm going to dig into the insecurity and fear that I have and try to fix it. And you may not be able to, but I think for most of us, we actually can, you know, with therapy, your friends or books and stuff fix a lot of those insecurities. It's not easy, but it's doable. When you get on the other side of it, the world feels like it just kind of opens up to you. You have no limits. We're not trying to paint this picture of just debauchery like you're going, oh, she took rules off fixing to fuck everything that moves. That's not it. It just feels expansive. It feels big. Life now isn't restricted in the way that it used to be, and you're doing it as a team, and you both become better for it. In our marriage, while we've always said we think we have this incredibly special relationship, it feels even different now. Do you agree? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, it feels deeper and richer. And we've both been able to explore a part of ourselves that we hadn't allowed ourselves to because even though we've been in a non-monogamous relationship since we started, we were very cautious and very slow. And that's kind of when the guardrail started to come up. But I don't think either one of us, because of our religious background, our previous marriages, had ever truly explored who we were individually and really stepped into our full autonomy. And that's really, it's brought us closer. And I mean, we've heard people say, well, that sounds like relationship anarchy. Like, what if your partner is an asshole? And it's like, well, then this isn't for you. Like, this goes under the assumption that you have a loving partner. And that doesn't mean it's always going to be easy, but it does mean that you assume the best in them. So if I did something that hurt his feelings, he's going to automatically assume I didn't do that on purpose, right? Or that I had loving intentions behind it. Usually I'm going to assume that. So I have a question though, because I hear what you're saying. And honestly, I love figuring out who I am. The idea of figuring out who I am outside of anyone and kids, work, husband, that sounds amazing. I don't really want to go on a date with anybody else though. You know, if I'm being honest. And so like, I, to me, that's outside of like, just kind of dating myself and loving myself and finding out who I am. I mean, do you have to go on a date? So let's, let's hold that. Let's hold that thought. I want to take a little break. I want to hear from the partners and sponsors of Swing Nation podcast. But I think on the backside, I have some questions too. So I think we've kind of heard what the theory is. I think we kind of understand the idea. of it. So then maybe give me and Lacey a chance to shoot some holes in it and see how it stands up. And then we still got to talk about this lifestyle resort. So after the break, we'll get to that. Lacey, one thing I don't leave home without when going to a swinger event is my ED medication. That is correct. Performance anxiety is 100% a real thing. Having sex in an orgy room with 100 people in there is way different than having sex. at home in your bedroom. It is. So I like to have what we call little insurance policy and have some of that ED medication in my pocket. Shameless Care is who I use for that. And they actually just came out with a new product called the Shameless Duo. Yeah. Which is a combination medicine that has Viagra and Cialis in it. So that one, you can be ready whenever. But also it's got that dose that you can take when you're, you know, as you're getting ready to go to the playroom and you need that to kick in. Yeah. So I love it. I mean, I used it at Hedo for the first time and that combination. You've kind of pretty much switched to that, haven't you? That's basically what I use all the time now. Yeah. So if you're looking for ED medication, if you're new to the lifestyle and you're going to an event, you might want to get some and have it just handy in case you need it kind of thing. Yeah. And the really cool thing about Shameless Care is they don't set you up on a reoccurring plan. So you're not going to get all of this ED medication that you have in your nightstand built up. When it's time that you need more, you'll get an email from them and they'll ask you, hey, are you ready for another round? And you can respond back. Yes, please refill it. Or no, I'm good right now. Thank you. So it's really cool because you don't end up with all these extra pills and spend a bunch of money that you're not, you know, you don't need to spend. Yeah. And my favorite part is you don't actually have to go into an office and talk to your family doctor or a military doctor. You can do it all right online from the privacy of your home. you just go to their website. You fill out some forms. The doctor reviews it, approves you, disapproves you, and you move on from there. So if you would like to get some medication, you can go to theswingnation.info. Click on the little recommended apps and products. Scroll down to the shameless care icon. Click on that and that's going to take you over there. There's some discount codes there for you so you can get a discount off your first order. But I highly recommend if you're going to some events or parties, go get you. Some Lifestyle Insurance. All right, guys. Check it out. Dan, if someone is just recently joining the Lifestyle and they don't really know where to begin, what do you recommend? Well, the Lifestyle, you know, it's 2025. And people are on the internet. They are. And there just so happens to be Lifestyle websites that are dedicated to people connecting in the Lifestyle. Yes. SDC happens to be one of our favorites. Over 3 million users. You can find people in your area. You can find clubs. You can find parties. All of it is right on SDC. And you can get a huge discount by signing up with us. You can. So all you got to do is if you're looking for lifestyle people in your area, if you're looking for the clubs, if you're looking for the parties, go to the swing nation dot info. Recommended apps and products. Scroll down to the SDC icon. We'll give you a free trial. Yeah, you can check them out. You can see who's in your area. You can see if it's if it's the app for you. all completely risk-free. Yes. So just head on over to theswingnation.info and get signed up for SDC today. All right. Welcome back. Welcome back. Thank you for listening to our sponsors. Lacey loves our sponsors. All right, Lacey. So we've got the theory, right? And so April and Scott are telling us that if you want to be a good human, you got to give your partner full autonomy to be their best self. Yeah. Which honestly, my brain kind of hurts if I'm being honest. Like, it's like, I feel like I'm trying To wrap my head around it. That's everybody's response. Okay, that's good. Yeah, because I do understand and I do, it is appealing to me, but then there's also like some just, I'm confused. You know, I don't know. Well, let me address the question you asked right before the break, which was, I don't have any, there's no, the wildlife area is not about doing any particular thing. You can have an incredibly rule-based relationship under wildlife. You can be monogamous. You go to church every Sunday. We don't text our exes. Whatever. As long as those are things that both of you genuinely want. Not just agree to. Dan wants you to not do this, so you're agreeing to keep the peace. So it's more of an internal. Obviously, if I meet somebody that I'm really smitten with, I could go to Dan and be like, I guess you go to that person or you just do it? No, of course. Just like any other loving relationship. I had a date this past Friday. I had a very stressful week and I know I have the freedom. I could just say, fuck him, I'm going on a date. But I came to him and I'm like, look, I know this has been kind of a tough week for us. Are you feeling okay? Is this going to spin you out of control? Because I love him. He's my person. And I'm like, I will cancel my date if you would like to just stay home and connect some. And he was like, no, I'm good. I want you to go. But if he would have said, yeah, I would have canceled my date. That's a powerful thing. Because he's my person. Yeah, to have her come to me with that kind of care and conviction, you know, I was like, oh my God, there is no way I will step on her joy in this moment just because I might be feeling a little less regulated than normal. Now, had she not offered that, I might would have been like, bitch, you didn't even ask me if I was, you know, I might would have been mad. But in a vanilla sense of the world, of the agreement, if I want my grandbaby to come over and Scott's like, I'm not doing grandbaby stuff today, I'm like, well, he's going to spend the day with me today. And normally I would have been like, Scott is stressed out, but I'm like, I'm going to have the grandbaby. This is something I want to do. I'll take him to the park. We'll go outside. But I'm not going to not do that because he does it. And to be clear, you can easily weaponize this theory. You can easily use it to get your way to manipulate your partner. And we have a chapter in the book about that. you trying to, quote, claim your autonomy and freedom is either directly or intentionally an effort to hurt your partner or it's obviously hurting them, then you're misusing the theory. It's not about that. It's about building a stronger relationship that has the capacity to not need these rules, not about imposing your freedom because you think that's what you should be able to do. I don't know if that makes sense. Well, this is my counterargument would be, well, isn't that every relationship is a negotiation? Like, we all have the freedom technically to do whatever we want, but we don't do that because we're thinking of the needs, wants, and desires of our partner. And so we've kind of all entered this negotiated state where we do certain things and don't do certain things because we're taking into account our partner's wants and needs. Like, isn't that every relationship in some aspect? Yes. Isn't that, like, kind of love? Like, for instance, like, I'm driving home. and I see a TJ Maxx, I kind of want to stop and see what they got. But I know that the family's at home and everybody's hungry. It's probably nicer of me to just, so you weigh the pros and cons and you're considerate of your partner and so you just go on home. I did want to go to TJ Maxx, but I'm okay with not going. Does that make sense? Those are more, that's not really what we're talking about. These are more big picture directional aspects of your life. Not, hey, I don't want to vacuum today. or it's hard to even bring, like you're talking about, I don't want to stop at TJ Maxx, but I don't really have time because I need to get back to it. That is you being you. It's not that every whim that crosses your mind should be something that you engage in. You do have to balance sometimes the realities of life. There are things that we have to do. We have kids, we got responsibilities, we got work, we've got all these things and you need to get that shit done first. What we're talking about is when there's genuinely a part of your person, your personality, that you would like to live freely with. And Dan is saying no, because it is too difficult. What are some things that you guys have, what would be an example of those types of things that you guys have identified as you've worked through this for us personally or just, or you can give us examples. Well, so I did want to do separate dating. Yeah. Um, because at first I thought it was because, um, Scott, we, it's hard to find a four way connection and we don't, we don't love orgies. Um, and it was, We always felt like one of us was taking one for the team. But I also know that Scott loves to connect really deep with somebody before that. I don't necessarily need as deep of a connection with somebody. And so I was like, well, let's explore this. But then again, that was three years ago. I didn't have the time to explore it. And so this is something... So you both wanted to do separate dating or that was primarily you? No, we both did. Well, yeah, it wasn't as easy as, you know, her mentioning it and us both going, oh, yeah, this is... Well, it scared the shit out of me when she said that. Because earlier in our relationship, you know, when we were talking about rules and boundaries and how we wanted to go about this non-monogamy thing, at one point she had said something about, if I ever come to you and say, I want to do separate dating, you should know. It's the red flag. I'm trying to find a new boyfriend. No, I was just thinking that in my head, to be honest with you. It's like, I, I, I, he's my best friend. I want to go and have dinners with him. If I'm with like some random man, to me that just. I would say that is my preference. us together. But I do get this, like, Lacey has a similar experience to you where sometimes it can be difficult for her to find guys in coupled situations that she really enjoys. So, you know, and we've kind of done the, where she kind of hot wives, but usually they're involved or it's like a group house where there's a bunch of us that doesn't, you know. And so she's kind of used that to kind of, you know, scratch that itch. But the idea of her maybe going out and doing a separate date just to get to know a guy so that she can fuck a guy that she wants to fuck. I don't think I would be completely against it, but that is a little, I think, outside of my comfort. Right. It's outside of mine. I'm curious. When you say, I just don't have any interest in separately, and by the way, Wild Love Theory has nothing to do with separately. Yeah, no, we're just getting checked. That was just something that we started, and there's a couple other things. Yeah, it's just one of the harder test cases. Yeah, yeah. It's a great way of testing the theory, but when you say you don't want or have any interest in that, how much of that is, I just have never had any interest in it, and how much is, I don't want to open that can of worms, because it may invite Dan to want that, and I don't... No, it's not even has to do with Dan. It's more me. I, like, I feel like he is my person, and, like, I don't mind hanging out with people and getting to know people and stuff like that, but, like, to go on, like, a very intimate thing where they pick me up, and I dress nice, and go and sit, just see, like, deep down, it feels like I'm... I can't get the words out, but does that make sense? Like it doesn't align with you. Yeah. One of the concepts we have in the book is called living agreements. These are things that you do agree to do because they reflect who you actually are. For you, that may be, you may love non-monogamy, but you only really love the when we're together part of non-monogamy. Yeah, it's kind of like a hobby that we do together. It's something fun. It brings us together. And that's who you are. Yeah. So there's no issue there. But another, and this is kind of maybe a side, but something that this has allowed us to do when I was talking about, like, what do you actually want? There was, I had so much fear about figuring out who I really am and what it is I actually want, that what if he allows me this freedom to grow, and then I... We grow apart. We grow apart, or I outgrow him, or he doesn't like it anymore, because one of the things was I'm a people pleaser, and I have high-functioning codependency. which means I can take care of everybody. Except yourself. Right. And so for the last year, I've been working on that. What happens if I stop taking care of everybody and they don't like who I am then? What if I start like, I became seriously like an angry feminist. Like I started like, and I'm like, I want my freedom so much. And now I want other women to have their own freedom. And like, what if I'm perceived as like this bitch who, and I'm like, That's okay. I need to be able to... Having the freedom to grow into who I want to be and him being my biggest cheerleader, even when he doesn't always agree or is like, okay, maybe tone it down a little bit, has been incredible. And I feel like there's so many women and men who get to this point in life, like I said, I'm 47, where they don't, like my youngest is getting ready to graduate. I've been a mother for 25 years with kids at home. This is the first time I've been I'm not going to have kids at home. And it's like, who am I and what am I going to do with this time? What do I want to pursue? What passions do I have that I've never tapped into? Do I want to learn to dance again? Do I want to learn to paint? Like all of those things. I'm sorry. And while that is, that is a very common thing you'll see. The husband and wife just sort of drift apart when the kids leave because who are they? That's the whole, I mean, that's the midlife crisis thing, right? Like is, especially if you get married. I mean, I got married like 19 and had kids. and so it's like that whole first chapter of your life is like what you're saying is you're worried about everybody else and making sure everybody else is fed and taking care of their needs and wants and so that one day when you wake up and now you don't have to do that anymore I think everybody kind of comes to this well what do I do now and what do I want to do and where am I in my life well in the business that we're in too we're essentially we're taking care of people still people pleasing all four of us when we go to an event we're people pleasing the entire time yeah and and it that's part of the beauty of this framework is that it brings to surface all of these questions about who am I, who do I want, and makes you have those conversations so that when the kids leave or when life turns on you, you do know, but I've always known what I want. We've talked about this is who we are as people, and we can pursue it instead of just going through life on the inherited scripts that we've grown up with that, hey, I'm married. This is my one person. I should never even look lustfully at another person. You know, we grow up in that culture and we just sort of adopt it without questioning a lot of times. This gives you the framework to go, all right, I want to find out who I am and I want to pursue it in a way that is respectful and loving to my partner but gives me some direction to keep this relationship that's so special for us stable and flourishing. Yeah. No, I get the idea of it, I think. I think I need to read the book because I think there's details that I'm missing. Yeah, I'm curious. I know you said dating other people is not part of the book. So then what can, just so I make sure I understand, if it's not going to TJ Maxx on your way out and it's not dating other people, so what are some other things that may be? Is there anything right now that in the lifestyle, let's say, that you would love to be able to play around with occasionally that Dan just doesn't like to see you do? Or vice versa. Dan's got something that he would kind of, and first of all, usually these conversations aren't easy to even have. I don't know, I'd have to think about that. Nothing pops. Like is there, like some people have a no kissing rule or no, like if you're, you know, wet swap or whatever that is called, you can't come inside of somebody or you can't do anal with fluid, you can't come in, you know, can't fuck them in the ass. So we're just, yeah. So I don't know. I'd have to think about it. Cause we don't really have. Yeah. Well, it's not enough that both of you agree to it. That's fine. We, we would call If you wanted to do a thing, she didn't want you to do it, and you just agree not to do it, that's a rule that we call scaffolding. It's in place. But whoever the one that's insecure or fearful of that now owes the work, we think, of at least trying to get through that insecurity. Because it's not just for you that she's getting or he's getting over that insecurity. It's for you, too. So one of our boundaries is we do messaging through group messaging. Yeah, that's a common one. Because my imagination, is my worst enemy, and he could just say, hey, how are you to a girl? And I think they're going to build a house and move away. So look, we have that as a protection. I mean, I don't know how he feels, but for me personally, I feel like it's a protection because I know that, even though I genuinely know they're not moving away and getting a dog and have a white picket fence, but it helps protect my peas, so I don't even have to worry about that. So I had the same rule until April 1st. But I knew there's so much behind that fear and insecurity. Logically, I know he's not leaving. Logically, I know if he wanted to, there's no amount of rules that I could put on him. Yeah, that's true. And so we have a chapter in the book called The Bad Prophet and the Unprofit. And The Bad Prophet is basically built around me because of my history. I'm hypervigilant. I learned to watch men. I thought I knew every woman. I know their motives. The way they act, I can tell what they're doing. I know what they want from him. I know how they're going to respond. And so I was doing so much of that narrative in my head of if this, if he messages privately, then that means she's hotter than me. He's good. It's going to make me less special. She's going to build a house. They're going to have, they're it wasn't serving me. Yeah. And it's not real. I was creating that narrative. Now that doesn't make it easy. It's still uncomfortable. And this is just new for us where he's just been able to private message. Yeah. And our phones are open. Like I can check it anytime I want. But when I, I want to be able to say, I trust him and mean it. Yeah. Cause the truth is if he wants to text somebody, he's going to do it. He's going to find some way to message, you know, you're not going to go. I guess though, like, If I have, I'm going to use me as an example. If I have the ability to just text anybody whenever I want, to me, that's just like opening up. Which, I mean, somebody that's non-monogamous would be like, bitch, you fuck people. You know, like, what are you talking about? That was exactly what I was about to ask. You know, like, you're worried about a message. But like, when you say it out loud, you're right. I'm working through this as I speak. We still communicate. Like, he'll let me know I'm texting so-and-so. Yeah, I guess the fear for me from that would be, well, me and Lacey get in a fight, and then she goes and texts another guy. But that's weaponizing it. Right. You don't want to talk to me? Right. But the truth is, we could do that without permission. And I don't even necessarily be, I think that's human nature. Yeah. Like, when you get in an argument with somebody you love, you want to go vent to somebody. And so, like, now, because we have this rule in place, well, a healthy person to go vent to would be your friend that's a girl that you haven't fucked, Well, I fucked her. Specifically with that, I don't know that we've ever, we may have talked about this. I know for sure, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, that I would not want her if she was pissed at me going venting to a boyfriend. And she wouldn't want me doing the same. I feel like it just scratches the surface. But here's the thing, that's not against what we're talking about, Myla, because it's a genuine desire that both of us have. It's not of me as a person. Okay. Because it's something I want. It's something she wants. But it's also one of the values that wild love assumes. That you have mutual respect for each other. Trust. I don't talk negatively to anybody about him. I will talk some shit. Come on. I will talk some shit about Dan. I will. They see it themselves. They might. I was talking shit about him like two days ago. He's like obsessed with AI and that's all he does now is play on this AI computer. I'm like, oh my God. But that's not talking shit, right? I was kind of talking shit. Like that asshole. I might have said that. But also, any friends that we would talk to would be like, April, get a hold of yourself. But it does. It assumes mutual respect, kindness, love. Yeah, this isn't a, it's not a free-for-all. It's not of every imaginable whim. You just pursue it with reckless. That's not what this, and there's a lot of safeguards built into the theory to help explain that in the book. Yeah. It almost seems to me like this is a normal relationship, except for it's forcing you every step of the way that when you make a rule or a boundary or, you know, you negotiate on something, you dig the next step deeper into, why did we put that in place? And is there a way that we can remove that boundary by bettering ourselves as humans? Well, that's exactly right. And because the actual theory itself is seven words. The theory is maximal relational happiness requires maximal relational freedom. What that says is if you want to be as happy as you can, and we cite a lot of research to support this, but if you want to be the happiest version of yourself, you have to be able to, it's called congruence in psychology. What you truly desire and want on the inside is allowed to be expressed without consequence on the outside. That is brutally difficult, and you're probably never going to perfect it, but as long as you orient towards that, you're working on it, then you're going to start to see that lightness come back into your life where all this shit doesn't feel as heavy anymore. The texting thing, both felt heavy to both of us. When she started texting guys, oh, it was... Now, though, it's not just that it doesn't bother me. I actually experienced some compersion from it now because I can see how much joy it brings to her. But that's not to say getting to that point was very easy. It is difficult. I can't imagine him sitting in a good morning text to somebody. And you're not losing your shit? Yeah, I would have a hard time. I mean, I don't... I would have a hard time. No, I was in that same place. Honest to God. years and that was one thing that that was one thing specifically that I was like I am going to work on this but the funny thing is we're in like a dozen group chats and we send good mornings and good nights to all of our friends all the time and it's not an issue because you can see it yeah so it's not really the good morning that's the problem is that the intimacy yeah it's the intimacy that's the point this will bring to surface your fears and insecurities and instead of you being able to um take that fear and insecurity and and dump the responsibility of managing it off on your partner instead of on yourself so essentially you're just dealing with the underlying issues instead of putting a magnet on it right yeah in order to we believe have a ultimately a happier life not that you're not happy now but it it can reach a level that feels even grander i get that you know me and lacey even talk you know she even comes to me sometimes she's like when i met you you lived off in the woods you used to you were driving a tractor and running chainsaws and hiking and she's like now you don't do any of that stuff and I was like yeah because you hate all of that stuff like what are you talking about yeah because you got me living in this you would never and she's like yeah but you used to be so masculine you know it's like I want to watch you from the window in the air condition so I think you're right we we do have this effect where we change each other and you know sure if you were like oh there are no rules you can do whatever I want would I spend more time hiking and doing outdoor stuff maybe why do I not do that like you said boo because I'm too busy editing podcasts and you know planning events. All stuff that you decided you wanted. For the record. But that's it. You're not... Right now, do you feel like, oh my God, I've lost a part of myself because I'm not in the woods more? No. So it's not an issue. But it can be simple things. Like in my previous marriage, he hated sushi. I would only pick restaurants that I knew he liked. And for 17 years, so when I divorced, I was like, I don't even know what I like to eat. And so it can be small things like that that can, over time, diminish a part of who you are you said you're you live a fulfilled life even without when we get in fights sometimes you say that you say well i'm an outdoors guy i don't do anything outdoors you you have said that so you need to rethink your answer on that or dig deep well no i think well i think i think well i'm sure and i'm sure every relationship has those kind of things where it's like well i've changed some of the things i do day to day because of our life is just different now yeah um and like you're saying not to say that my life now is not fulfilled, but you have made changes, you know? Yeah. So I think. Yeah, it's not, it's not that you look, you get in a relationship, your life changes. Yeah. There's no way to avoid that. Right. What we're talking about in the book is not that changes can't or shouldn't happen. It's that the unnecessary diminishment of your partner shouldn't happen. Some things are necessary. You got to go pick the kids up at school, right? You can't just be like, well, that's not who I am as a person. Well, you're a bad dad then. That's who you are as a person. But it does, there are lots of things that we do to to diminish our partner on purpose in order to save ourselves some hurt. Now, if you like robbing banks, she should diminish you in that way. That's not an ethical or moral thing to be pursuing. But if it's simply, I'd like to go camping once a month. Oh, please. And if that triggers her, well, then that probably sounds like something she should work on. It doesn't sound like it would trigger her. But that also is a good place to start a conversation about, like, these are some things that I would really like to do. it isn't this year, but is there a way we could move towards giving me a little more freedom to explore and do that kind of thing? And maybe you're like, well, I want to spend a week alone at the beach. How can we make this happen? I think I'd be kind of like where you're at. Like, well, do I not camp because Lacey doesn't want to camp? Or do I not camp because I don't want to camp anymore? I'm not even really sure which one is the answer. And I guess you've got to go and then figure it out. But that's such an important point because the problem we're trying to highlight in the book is so in relationships and culture that that's what happens. You just don't know anymore. You don't know who you are. Well, and I'm sure when you're angry and you're mad, you're just throwing stuff on the wall to see what'll stick. And so, of course, you're going to blame the other person for something because that's the easiest way. I'm also 41 years old and my back hurts. I don't know if I really want to sleep outside of the mattress anymore. You know what I mean? So there's part of that that's like, well, maybe I think I want to do that, but maybe I don't. You know what I mean? So I guess my next question is, because I know you said you're doing a retreat coming up. So how does... Is that people that are already living this? Is it people that... I'm assuming this is already hooked up and you probably don't have any... It is booked, yeah. But I'm guessing you'll probably do more of these. We will, yeah. So we actually partnered with Expansive Connection, which is a therapy group who is backing the book as well. And they specialize in non-monogamous and non-traditional relationship structures. Right. And so they will be joining us at the retreat. And so we have nine couples that will be there. They've all read the book already. Well, they are... They're two chapters away from here. We've been releasing a chapter a day to them in Telegram since the book's not actually published yet. It's April 15th through the 19th in the Smoky Mountains. But basically, it's a couple's retreat, but it's going to be intense. They're going to be working through these principles. We aren't therapists, so we're not telling them how to implement it. We're presenting it. And the book is written. Each chapter is Scott laying out the theory and then my response in lived experience. And so by the end of that week, the therapist will help them with a take-home plan. Like, here are some steps, but they're also there to help them regulate. We'll add in some fun things to kind of like, you know, somatic exercises to shake out and regulate. But this is going to be a very interesting retreat and kind of test of like, how this can expand in, because there are people there from all walks at different stages of their relationship. Yeah, and April and I are not capable of telling somebody, you have this fear. Well, here's how you get over it. That's not our lane. The book is built to kind of shine a light on where those things tend to pop up in relationships. But, you know, the work is, is if it feels like something, hey, this, there seems to be some merit to this idea, but it's really triggering me or making me have some, that's when you need help from a, from somebody other than us two idiots. You know, you need a therapist. So we say that all the time on the podcast, like we're just telling you what happened, like what we've been through. And we can lead you to the experts that can help you. Yeah. All right. Well, that all sounds great. And so if people wanted to learn more about the book and maybe some of your events, where do they go for that? They can go to NaughtyJim.com and there's a tab for Wild Love Theory and they can get some more details there. All of our events, everything's there. And if they would like to send us an email, NaughtyJimOnline at gmail.com. And we're going to be building, it's not completely finished yet, but we're building a little community for the book. Because one of the things that we've realized when we presented this at workshops and keynote speeches and stuff, we get inundated with questions. And that's great. We love that. So this is going to be a place where you can go and interact with other people who are dealing with the issues in the book, ask questions, maybe ask questions of us, that sort of thing. But we want to have that community ready as well. So yeah, please, we're going to have a, Naughtygym.com. A landing thing where you put your email and stuff in. He's super technical. I'm pretty good at this. It'll be on the website, Naughtygym.com. And you can find out updates. Yeah. Okay. All right. So now let's talk a little bit about what you teased at the beginning. There's a lifestyle resort in Florida that you're helping to acquire? Yeah. So we have to be careful. We can't say the resort. It is in Florida. It's in a, you know, a city that's kind of a beach city, but it's, we, you know, we've been there before. and we've been to a lot of resorts. We think it's probably the nicest lifestyle resort in America, but you know, that's a, you know, that that's depends on who you are. Yes, but it's a very nice place. Uh, and, and the group we're involved with is going to come in. We're April and I are actually going to move there on the property, uh, to run it and, um, you know, try to change some of the things that maybe aren't optimal for, you know, the community right now and, and make it a better place. There's going to be lots of renovations. of condominiums that are going to be built in addition to what's already there. We're going to turn it into, there's this organization in America called Soho House. It's these local, it's sort of like the modern day country club without a golf course. It's pools and spas and co-working spaces and bars and restaurants where you can go and just hang out. We're going to turn this into that in addition to the event and party space. Is that like a monthly membership or animal membership? But that would be for local people that live there. Because one of the things that you'll see that's a constant problem with places, lifestyle resorts in America, different from Desire and Hedo, is that 90% of their revenue probably comes in on Friday and Saturday. It's every. And it's roughly. Swingers, clubs, any lifestyle. Yeah, they're essentially dead Monday through Thursday. So we're going to have these, you know, we're still going to have all of that stuff. But you're going to also have this local access to where people can work out. the pool. They can eat and drink and they can, you know, have Wi-Fi and just hang out in this really cool place throughout the day. So we're bringing a lot of new things and new ideas. But it is a it's a big investment and it looks like it's going to happen. But if people are interested and would like to know more about it, especially if you're wanting to invest, it's for accredited investors only, which means I think the parameters now are you've got to have a job that a salary that earns two hundred thousand or more per year. Your net worth has got to be like a million dollars or higher. Just an accredited investor. Yeah, it's an SEC thing. If you're interested, you can email either of us. Scott at wondervest.world or April at wondervest.world. W-A-N-D-E-R-V-E-S-T dot world. Yeah, if you guys don't mind, if you can put it in the show notes or something. But if you email us, all of the documents that an investor needs, you know, there's a pitch deck in All of that stuff will get sent to you. And you can evaluate whether it's something you'd like to invest in. But it is not just this resort. This is the flagship property, the first step. Because one of the things that we want to solve is we want to have resorts in different places around the country where you're not paying one membership to go this weekend to this club and another membership. You're a part of this one bigger organization and you pay one monthly membership for it. you get access to all of this stuff. I can't tell you how many Swinger websites. We are on all of them. If you add all that up, it can be a lot. They're paying monthly memberships for a lot of them. This would end up being, overall, especially for people like you, it would be less per month and you'd get access to a lot more. We're excited about it. We try to toe the line about saying what we can. If you're interested, email us and we can send you all the information, all the Yeah, it is interesting. The lifestyle is business wise is an interesting place right now. It seems like there's a lot of growth and change. I was also reading an article right now. It's saying that it's something like 80% of American businesses are owned by like baby boomers. And so there's a lot of like changeover that's getting ready to happen and stuff. I see that within the lifestyle too. A lot of these lifestyle business owners are older, you know, type people. And we've been approached by several people that say, Hey, You know, here's pretty shortly. We might be interested in selling this. Is this something you'd be interested in investing and stuff like that? So I think it's going to be the next, you know, four or five years is going to be an interesting time. Well, it is. I think non-monogamy in general is opening up to mainstream culture a lot more. You see a lot more shows, a lot more things, you know. And as that happens and the younger generation starts growing up, it's just continuing to grow. And that old mindset of the keys in a bowl and... You got to wear a collared shirt and no back or tats. Yeah. Oh, shit. That stuff is fading and as it becomes more mainstream, the lifestyle is going to look like mainstream culture and it needs to adjust. The vibe has got to change a little bit and hopefully we can help do that a little bit. All right. Well, that's exciting stuff. So definitely reach out to Scott and April if you're interested in hearing more about that. And we appreciate you guys stopping into the studio. Thank you for having us. We always love hanging out with you guys. You have to come back before you move. I didn't know you were moving. All right. Well, anything else for the Swing Nation listeners, Lacey? No, that's it. All right. I think with that, in a world full of apples. Be the pineapple. Be the pineapple, guys. Bye. Bye. If you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us, we have a five-star review wherever you're listening. If you want to see more of our content, you can find links to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, OnlyFans, and more in the show notes. Come join the conversation with us and other Swing Nation content creators The Swinger Society Discord server. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at theswingnation at gmail.com. Make sure you head on over to theswingnation.net and keep up to date on all things Swing Nation. We thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time. Goodbye. That's so hot.