The Swinger OG: 86-Year-Old Sam L. Feldman Tells All

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast is intended for adult audiences. Over the age of 18, it contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to us, and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice. Welcome to the Swing Nation podcast, a podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle. Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe. Interview the activists, learn and grow together. Join the nation. So Lacey, people are asking, how do they get to go to a party or an event with us? They check out swingersociety.net, you create a profile, you sign up for an event, and you come hang out with us. Super easy. That's right. If you want to party with us and the other faces and names that you know from social media and TikTok, head on over to swingersociety.net. Can't wait to see you there. Hey there, Pineapple people, and welcome to the Swing Nation podcast. We are your hosts, Northern Guy and Southern Girl. And today we have a special guest. We do. We have Sam here in the studio with us, and he is 86 years old now. Yeah. And he is an author, and he wrote the book Hookups and Hiccups and Happenstances. Sam has also been married over 60 years. Yeah. Yeah, over 62 years. 62 years. And he's been non-monogamous for some of that time. For how long, Sam? Well, we'll go back to the book talks about the sexual revolution, back to the 60s and 70s. And it was a time of women's empowerment in the bedroom and outside the bedroom. So there's a lot of history in the book about that. and the main character is Butch. Butch had been married a few years and he approached his wife and said, hey, hon, why don't we have a menage a trois? And she said, you know, that's not my thing, but if you want to do it, you do it. So Butch asked three times and got the same answer three times. And he took the cue. So that you could call that ethical non-monogamy. That term did not exist back in the 60s and 70s. It's a more recent term, but that was the genesis of taking off. Right. So in the book, is Butch based loosely on you? Is it kind of your life stories? I would say it is. It's labeled fiction, but they say there's truth in fiction. so we can leave it at that yeah you know so me and lacy have been non-monogamous basically since we met we actually met on the swingers dating website like that's how we met each other and we get asked from people in the community all the time like how did this exist before the internet like how did people that's probably the number one question we get as far as like people wanting to know like how swinging started or like not started but how people did it before all these apps and dating and online, all that. So that's a big question people have. So how did Butch do it back in the day? How did he find people that were interested in non-monogamy? Most of them found him. So we can make that assertion. And I want to go back to, we'll cover this, but I want to go back to the question that I asked my wife, you know, hey, let's have a menage a trois. And I got the same answer three times. And so, as I say, that was the beginning of my ethical non-monogamy, even though the term did not exist. And the point I want to make now is people say, you've been married 62 years. What's the secret? And how'd you guys do it? And my wife would say, her answer is, pick your battles. But going back to the 60s and 70s, swinging, as I believe it started in the Air Force, that's what I've discovered from historical research. The airmen who were going into battle, they wanted to be sure that if they didn't come back, that their wives would be taken care of. So amongst the airmen themselves, they had this pact. So that might have been the genesis of swinging. But in the 60s and 70s, there was no such thing as a term as swinging. What we did see out there were the neighborhood clubs where, you know, drop your house key in a bowl. Yeah, the key parties, as they called them. Yeah, the key parties. So at my time, that was kind of where things started and took off from there. So how do you find out about a key party? So for the listeners that people don't know, it's, you know, we've even talked to like older swingers and been like, was this key party thing like a real thing? And some of them are like, no, that never happened. That's a made up story. And other people have said like, no, that's the thing that we went to. I think what maybe some people don't realize is those from the people that we've talked to, it seemed like those parties were people that all knew each other and were all friends and all had sex anyway. and the key exchange was just kind of a fun way to determine who was with who that night. Not so much just random people you didn't know showing up and people having sex with whoever. But I'm sure that happened. I'm sure that happened. Yeah. But my question is how do you even like how does somebody know you're interested in going like it's got to be intimidating to approach a random person you don't know or maybe somebody that's a friend but you don't know if they're even interested in this and be like hey we're having this party. this weekend where we're all gonna put our keys in a bowl like how does that conversation even start or even how do you even think to ask somebody that yeah it was a neighborhood thing that's so you had neighbors who you'd talk to eventually get to know so it wasn't a random thing you couldn't go online today you couldn't pick up your iphone and connect with somebody so it was basically a neighborhood setting so you had a group of people who discovered themselves and discovered their likable interests, if you will. And we had one in our neighborhood. Now, my wife came from a very religious background. She was very vanilla when we got married. So to get her into that, you know, cross that bridge wasn't going to happen. But it was happening in our neighborhood, and we were aware of it. So did your wife know when you were going to these parties? Was it like, did you have open communication around it? Or is it kind of like, don't ask, don't tell? Like, just don't tell me about it. Go have fun and come home. Yeah, it was don't ask, don't tell. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you traveled for work a lot? Is that kind of where this came from? Yes, I traveled a lot for work. And so I've been in various areas of the country, various situations, various lounges or bars, whatever. which was born at a lucky time to be right in the center of the sexual revolution. Women were feeling their sexual empowerment and quite frankly just kept getting hit on. Yeah so I was reading your website and looking at it you've you've had an interesting career you did some some modeling at one point in time. Correct I did modeling and then from the modeling I was asked to judge beauty pageants and. did that also. And judging the beauty pageants led to an encounter that was absolutely unbelievable. There was a woman whose daughter was entered into one of the beauty contests. And I would travel around. These were not in my own area. And this was in another state. And I noticed this woman as soon as I sat down. She was absolutely stunning. Unbelievably stunning. And at the coffee break, went to the men's room on the way back to take my seat. I didn't want to encounter any parents or grandparents. So I was walking back with my head down. And I got to a spot and there was somebody standing right in front of me. And I looked up and it was this woman. And she said, I'm a psychic. And do you believe? I said, anything's possible. Inside, my brain said, no, I don't believe. She said, I'd like to read your tea leaves. And I said, okay. She said, how about after the pageant today, we'll meet in, this happened to be in Boston, and they have their tea times. And she said, let's meet for tea after. And we did, and she had a cup of tea leaves and turned it over. And Dan and Lacey, if I tell you I didn't believe then, I'm going to tell you I believe now. She predicted seven or eight things. Wow. Except for one. Could have happened, I don't know. But seven absolutely happened. A full range of things. It was absolutely mind-blowing. But from tea, it was an invitation to dinner. From dinner, it was going out to cocktails. Went to the Playboy Club in Boston. And from there, we ended up in my room. Yeah, that was another question I had. So, you know, you talked a little bit about key parties and stuff like that. Were there swinger clubs or bars or, you know, was there places to go to? No, not that I know of. Not back then. I mean, the whole world is changing. You're talking quite a few years. You know, we talked to 60s and 70s. Yeah, the evolution is. It's taken some time, actually, to get to where we are today. Today is so off, open. You know, you think back, what, I don't know, seven, eight, nine years ago, swinging. It was like, ooh, you know, swinging. But now you turn on the TV and it could be on a sitcom mentioned. It could be on a news report. I mean, swinging is out there at this point. It's not behind the doors as far as the general population knowing. What is swinging? Everybody practically knows. knows what's swinging. And it took, as I say, probably seven to eight years to get through the media to where you can talk about it now. And also talk about it to the point, in my opinion, not that many people are going to be offended if, oh, John and Mary are swingers. I think we're beyond that at this point for most people. And then some of those people who are going to turn up their nose are probably doing it themselves. But yeah, yeah, that's true. It is interesting. You know, we live in the south, pretty in the deep south. And it's a pretty conservative area that we live in. And I think, you know, our local community isn't super accepting of it. I think you could still probably lose your job. And, you know, we even had a few friends that have had to deal with, like, custody battles and stuff, you know, when they get divorced or they are divorced and their ex finds out that they're swingers or whatever and then tries to take their kids away. So I think there are still ramifications. But that's neat to see somebody else's perspective that probably lived in a time where it was 100% not accepted to see where it is now. For me, that kind of makes me think maybe we should be a little bit happier with where we are now. I can only imagine comparing today to the 1960s and how far we've come in that aspect. I believe half the states, take the top 10 states, or swingers, I believe probably four or five are in the South. It's very common, but just hush-hush, I think, here. It's definitely happening. It's just not as talked about, I think. It's not as accepted as it is in some more open states. Yeah. Thoughts cross my mind. I still view porn, and particularly amateur porn, to be where I would go to rather than professional. But no poo-poo on the other side. I just think it's more enjoyable watching amateur porn. And people seem to be really enjoying it. But the point I want to get to is that so many of the people involved, you can tell are from the South. Yeah. Southern accents. And so that tickles my fancy. He likes the Southern accent. Oh, okay. I'll have to send you a link to Lizzie's only fans after this she's got some of that content yeah um so you know you talk a lot about the sexual revolution and i'm almost part of me almost thinks like since covet are we going through a second sexual revolution and i guess my question to you would be since you've written about this and studied it what what was the catalyst like why in the 60s did women become so open about their sexuality like what do you think was the driving force behind that legislation uh women had the right to have an abortion legally. They didn't have to go into some alleyway to have an abortion. So that was huge. They had a right to purchase contraceptives. Up until that time, only, believe it or not, couples could purchase contraceptives, but a single person technically couldn't legally purchase contraceptives. So if you take those two factors, women could now have sex and not have to worry about the morning after. the consequences for hanging on them for the rest of their lives. They could have sex, and if they got pregnant, or they could take means not to get pregnant, that was a whole world of change to women in the 60s and 70s. That was the genesis. And unfortunately, reading my book, if you look at the first line, it says, these stories may never be told again. And the last line in the book says, don't let them, in bold, Take the Joy Out of Sex. The book was published in 2023. And some people say, what did you mean? Well, it's very obvious today because the conservatives have gone into power and they have what's called Project 2025. And Project 2025 wants to strip away the legal rights that women had back then. They want to take away the morning after pill. They want to take away the right to have employers pay for your contraception. They want to take away a woman's right to no-fault divorce. They want to take a woman back to where they were and where their mothers were in the 60s and put them in the kitchen with an apron and kids running around. Yeah. No, I think that's, it is interesting that the kind of ebb and flow of, and it is interesting that, like you said, just some changes in legislation can make So many changes in people's, you know, real life. What about, you said contraceptives, but when did birth control become like a popular thing? Like women being on birth control? Was it around the same time? Around the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And one other thing I want to add about Project 2025, it wants to fine or jail authors, directors, producers of what they deem pornography. Think about that. Yeah. Yeah. It's scary. It's absolutely scary what the conservative base in Project 2025 wants to do to society as we know it now. Yeah. And I mean, you're starting to see some states may not ban pornography, but make it much more difficult to access it. We're in a state that you have to jump through hooves to go to like certain websites like we. But we do. They want you to upload your ID. I don't know who would want to upload their ID to a porn site. Where does that information go? Who's storing it? How is it being kept? What is it being used for? The crazy thing about all that is then you just turn on a VPN. We have recent friends that just moved to the state from up north. They were like, what the hell is happening? We can't even watch porn here. I was like, you can. You just got to go to the back door. You got to go around it. When the book was coming out in 2023, we were taking a trip up north in Canada. And I thought my book could be a fun thing for an event at a swimming club. In other words, let's have an amateur night. I mean, I know you have karaoke nights, you know, different theme nights. So let's have a storytelling night. And give my book out as prizes, if you will, to people who stood up and came up with their own story, their own fantasy maybe. And so I wanted to meet somebody who had a club and bounced us off him. So I did this, arranged a meeting and sat down, got a great reception to the idea. And I said, well, When can you start doing this? Let's put it out there to your members. He said, I don't have any meetings because of COVID. Since COVID, now this is 2023, since COVID, we have not had a meeting at the club. Wow. And I said, well, okay. But then he says, I have an email list. And I said, oh, good. Maybe he has a couple hundred people. This is like up in St. John's. This is an island off Canada. Maybe he has a couple hundred people. He said his email list was 2,300 people. Wow. So that could get the word out. I don't believe he had a meeting until about a few months ago, actually, his first foray to getting people back. Oh, wow. However, the point I want to make is that before it hit the states, that if you want to view porn online, you have to register. And he told me before it hit the states that one of the provinces up there was going to enact legislation to make people register to be able to view porn. So give their personal information. Yeah. You know, I think most almost anybody that probably watches porn doesn't want to do that. Yeah. But then there is the flip side of, you know, I think children having access to that is bad and dangerous in some way. So, you know, I guess it becomes, well, how do we protect children but then also protect people's privacy and what's the balance there? And the funny thing is even the, you know, they've passed the laws now where you have to register and provide your ID for porn. But that's not, these children know how to use phones and VPNs and all that stuff better than we do. So you're not stopping that. If anything, you're probably stopping the people that aren't as tech-savvy, that know how to use all that stuff from viewing it. I think that I agree with you totally. When it's inappropriate, keep it out of the hands of inappropriate, especially with children. But I think it's an excuse that the far right is using. And as you just said, and I totally agree with you, these kids know a lot more, a hell of a lot more than we do. we did. They're not naive anymore. When I was 10 years old, I didn't know what the hell a blowjob was. You find a 10-year-old today that, you know, doesn't know what a blowjob is, and I'd be shocked. Yeah. And I also, you know, my personal opinion is we put too much on the government to protect our children and maybe not enough on parents. You know what I mean? Like, ultimately, I don't think it's the federal government's or even a state government's job to to make sure that children aren't looking at bad things on your phone. I thought that was a parent's job. You know, that's what that would be my my take on the on the subject. Yeah. And some people have the opinion that the people who don't want their children to see this online don't even want to talk to their children about sex. Don't even want to have the conversation. Right. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I mean, you know, we had parental and things on our kids' phones that prevented them from having access to all that stuff. And that stuff's been around for a long time. So I think there are the tools in place to, if you are a parent that's involved and cares about that type of stuff, that where you could, you know, you could prevent that from happening. I think that's what, whenever we start relying on government to do the jobs with parents, that's when things seem like they start going sideways. You mentioned, you know, Canada. You said Canada had laws passed before us. But they're pretty liberal, aren't they, on a lot of things? Yeah, definitely. From my perspective and my knowledge, they are. But somebody in some province... Somewhere....bog up their tutu and they're making it difficult. Yeah, you know, me and Lacey are big supporters. Every year we go to Naughty in New Orleans and they have what they call the Sexual Freedom Parade, which is basically a bunch of swingers and It's almost like a pride parade for swingers, right? And we marched down Bourbon Street and did that. And it is an interesting, you know, I believe in sexual freedom. I think consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want to do in their bedroom without employers or the government be able to step in and try to regulate that. I think that's the general idea of sexual freedom. But people, I think, with good intentions, trying to, you know, protect the youth or, you know, protect minors and stuff like that. passed different legislations and things like that that impede on people's sexual freedom almost not purposely yeah so it is i think we're all constantly drawing that line of well how do you protect children but also allow adults to do what you know the things that they want to do where's the balance yeah i imagine when you were in new orleans that uh you didn't get to there's two clubs uh in new orleans they're like three four blocks from each other on the corner from each other. You probably didn't get off-site. We went to Colette. Yeah, so Colette is a club that we've partnered with and done events. Not in the New Orleans location, but in the Texas locations. But we usually go every time. We've been there quite a few times over the years. Yeah, we like that club. They host pre-parties and stuff there. So we went there Tuesday night? Yeah. New Orleans sounds like a perfect venue. It is. It is. Have you guys been to Fantasy Fest? We have not. We have not. I saw the pictures. of you and your wife. It's funny that people every year, when it comes up, they're like, are you going? Are you going? I don't know. It always falls on a weird week where either we have kids or something else planned, but I think it's something we need to get to. Now, I have heard that they're starting to crack down on Fantasies Fest, and it's not as maybe sexually open as it's been in the past. Dan, you hit the nail on the head. We've probably been seven, eight times and seen the change the rollover. For example, in the beginning, you could have a woman totally naked on the street and go up to a police officer, put her arm around him, pose for a picture. Fine. That went on for several years. Now, if a cop could walk up to you, and I would say there's not total nakedness, except there's a lot of body painting. A lot of body paint. Yeah. And, you know, you can't tell the difference. Yeah. The women who are body painted can walk around and you don't even know. But let's say you have no body paint on and a woman's breasts are showing, her nipples are showing, and a police officer would say, honey, next time I see you, I don't want to see your nipples. That's how much the pendulum has swung down at Fantasy Fest. Yeah. Well, he brought up your wife. I guess that was my next question. At what point did your wife join you in this journey? Well, if you read the book, that was the climax story, if you will. And I don't want to give away the book. Okay. But, you know, it was like full circle, I think was the name of the last story of the 13th story. So now I feel like I have to go read the book. I know. All right. So I think now is a perfect time to take a little break and hear from the partners and sponsors of the Swing Nation podcast. And then when we get back, we're going to get more into Sam and his experiences in non-monogamy over six decades. Yeah. Which is pretty impressive. We'll be right back, guys. So, all of our content is 100% free. 100%. You can listen to the podcast for free. All of our TikToks are free. Facebook, Instagram, you name it, it is for free. The only service that we ask you to pay for, if you want to, of course, is our OnlyFans. Yep, that's right. If you want to support Dan and I and our journey through all of this. OnlyFans is really what pays our bills. It's what keeps us being able to be public and be able to make all of these things. Honestly, it's really hard with a corporate job to have an OnlyFans. So if you would love to show your support, we would love to have you. If you would like to check out my OnlyFans this month, it is 50% off your first month. If you want to go to theswingnation.info, you'll see all the links there. Hello, y'all. 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And even your boobs, they have some that are a little bit, like, have more room in the important areas if you catch my drip. But yeah, they're so awesome. I love them. I can't wait to see everybody rocking them at Swinger Study Parties. If you would like to purchase your Swing It, if you go to theswingnation.info, click the link at the bottom. It'll take you directly to Swing It's website and you'll get a discount. Thanks, y'all. Bye! My favorite type of swinger is a safe swinger. One that has done all the work before they even get to the club, before they get to the party, and they know that they are STI negative. They've got it all figured out before they walk in. So that way, when it's time to play, they don't even have to like skip a beat. They're just like, here are our results. You can look at them on my phone, or you can look them up for yourself. We were tested. Everything came back negative. We're good to go. That's my favorite type of swinger. What about you? you, Dan. I'm kind of one of those guys, if you want to fuck like a porn star, you probably should get tested like a porn star. If we've learned anything over the last four years of doing this podcast, it's not all tests are the same. The tests you're getting at your doctor might not be all the tests that you need if you're going to be actively participating in this lifestyle. Yeah, if you go to your doctor and say, I need a full panel STD, STI test, that's whatever they think a full panel is. There's not like a rule that says you should check for these 10 things or 12 things. Heck, we've been to some doctors and they have no idea what even should be tested for and what shouldn't. So your best bet is to use I Know My Status because they know we're swingers. They know what we're up to. They've been testing porn stars for years. So they know how to get you tested and ready to go and have lots of fun. Yeah, they really are the gold standard in STI testing for the adult industry. And swingers, we're fucking a lot like porn stars. So those are probably the same tests that you need to be getting. So head on over to I Know My Status. Get signed up. If you're in the Florida or Vegas or Orlando area, there's an office. You can go in and get tested and you can get your results back as soon as the same day. If not, they have draw labs located across the country where you can go and you can get tested. And same, they'll mail your labs into to the lab and you'll get your results back. I think, you know, as soon as a day or two, depending on how long the mail takes. It's worth notating if you go to your family doctor and they're testing for basically everything, but maybe they're missing like a mouse swap or an engine test, some of the newer things that, you know, maybe our family doctors are not. Testing for. Yeah, testing for. You can go to I Know My Saddest and just purchase those tests. You don't have to go and spend, you know, a lot of money to pay for the whole thing. You don't have to do that. you can just go and be tested for the things that you need. Right. Yeah. And you could even, you know, if you want to, you could call them and say, hey, these are the tests I get from my local doctor. What am I missing? Yeah. And I'm sure they would have a conversation with you about what they think you should be getting tested for. And then you can order just those tests and go get those done. We had a friend not long ago that somebody that they were engaging with wanted her to be tested for EMGEN. She had, they just go to their local doctor. They know they're swingers. It's not a big deal. And so they went to a draw facility in their town and just were tested for that one test. And, of course, it came back negative. No issues. And they were good to play. Right. So go check out iknowmystatus.com. Go get tested like a porn star today so that we can play safe at our next event. Yeah. All right, guys. All right, guys. Welcome back. Welcome back. Thank you for listening to our sponsors. We love our sponsors. We do. All right. We're back here with Sam. Yeah. 86 years old now. And it's been non-monogamous for over 60 years. So you said while we were on break there that you wanted to tease something else about the book, Sam? Is that? Yeah, there's 13 stories in the book. It started out with the first story that came to my head. It was a story I felt compelled to tell. And I thought it would make a good Netflix or Amazon Prime show. And it unfortunately involved a suicide. So it was a hookup, then involved a suicide. But again, I believe there was a compelling story. And it's a story. The whole book is about communication, communication and sex. And the story involved bad communication, betrayal by a physician, which then led to books betraying the partner. So after the story was written, it just sat there. And I say like a little pea on this huge ironing board. And I said, well, I got to do more. I got to beef this up. So I'll write five stories. And then five went to 10 and 10 went to 12. And that's it. I'm done at 12. And middle one night I went, oh, my God, I have to write this story. So next morning I said to my wife, hey, honey, I got a 13 story. She said, you can't. I said, what do you mean? She said, 12 or 14. You can't do 13. to do it. But the final story was always going to be full circle. It was always going to be the last story. But it got sandwiched in between 10 and 11. So each story, there's a thread all the way through. So now I believe that this could make a great Netflix or Amazon Prime series, an absolute series, and the thread goes on. But getting back to the first story, it's titled Corkscrew. So, Dan, you've got to read the book. Because I'll make you a hero. I like being a hero. You do. Corkscrew is a menage a trois that I created. I've, in 45 years of viewing porn, going to clubs, never seen the corkscrew. So this is a sexual move, you're saying, that you've invented. Correct. All right, now I'm curious. Keep going, tell me more. So the book describes how to do the menage a trois corkscrew. But I would venture to say if you have an on-site meeting and you got a circular bed in the middle of the room and you got two wheeling parts. Which there is one of those at Collette in New Orleans. Yes. And you get in the middle, two women on a move, that's never been done before. Well, it has been once. Yeah. All I can say is you'll get a standing ovation. Oh, now we're interested. Now I got to go read the book. Yeah. For two reasons. One, to figure out what happened with his wife. Yeah. And then two, to figure out how to do this courtroom maneuver. Yeah. It's a thing. Me and Lacey have done a lot of, there's not much me and Lacey haven't done. Correct. When it comes to menage a trois. and group sex and Lacey's, you know, she's had a few gang bangs. Like she's been around the block once or twice. That sounds awful. I'm a big whore. What can you say? So we always like to... Lacey, when you read the story, okay, and you read the maneuver, just remember if it was me involved with you, you would be at the foot of the bed. Okay. I'm going to remember that. The foot is a bed. Okay, so I've actually done a lot of research about swinging and non-monogamy, and I found some interesting things over the years. And one of the things that I guess I really didn't realize, you know, you talk about the sexual revolution, and it really seems like swinging and non-monogamy and even like orgies and group sex, you know, started to become more commonplace during that time. And I've always wondered, like, why did it seem like it stopped? Like, what ended that movement? And from my research, what I found is it seems like it's AIDS. It seems like the AIDS pandemic came along. And, you know, like you were saying, you know, with contraceptive and birth control and all this abortions, it made it where people were having more, you know, uncommitted sex. But once AIDS came, it now became dangerous again to do that. And so a lot of these clubs, a lot of these groups shut down and stopped, stopped participating. You live that experience. Is that what happened? Yeah, without doubt. The AIDS was put the brakes on things just like the pandemic did. Those two things have become blips in the road for swinging, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess. When AIDS came along, people didn't know what it was and got scared and there was real no no medicine. You know, it seems like there was a lot of rumors about how it was spread. You know, people were saying it couldn't be spread between straight partners. It was only, you know, gay males and things like that. You know, all this misinformation that we know now is untrue. But I can only imagine just, you know, you who were participating in this lifestyle. Did you stop? Did you educate yourself? Did you stop for a while? Like, how did it affect you? Yeah, stopped. Yeah. Actually, I put the brace on. I self-imposed before that time. So I put the brakes on. Before anything caught up to me, I pushed the envelope. I had, you know, there were seven rules basically that I had during this period of time where I was out there. And the first one was the L word never comes up. You know, you just don't mention love, period. Wear your ring. Always wear your ring. Get agreement. that we're here for a good time. So there were a few of those rules I had. And the last one was, if you're with someone and they can't abide by these rules, walk away. Walk away. Now, we're not in a perfect world. So did there become a time when it was like, should I put the brakes on? No, you got to put the brakes on. Yeah. Walk away. Walk away. So we keep those rules in mind. And I know a great part of non-monogamy and swinging is to have rules about what we can do, what we're cool with doing. But then you should have some rules. Not only that, well, not penetrative sex or no kissing, but I'm talking about rules about how to keep away from an emotional entanglement. My opinion is love and sex are not the same. And there's emotional affairs and physical affairs. Well, Butcher always was on the physical side. I want to stay away from emotional sight. A lot of times the physical leads to emotional. But if you have these rules implanted within yourself, within your mind, you know when the stop sign starts to appear and you say, got to stop right here. That is great advice on so many levels. Because, like, spoiler alert, a lot of our friends recently are going through stuff. Like, more than probably, make those emotional connections and informing those. And that's not something me and Lacey do kind of for the same reason you're saying, Sam, is, you know, we try to protect our primary relationship at all costs. And we've, you know, are struggling with the balance because just like you said, when you have relationships with people outside of your marriage, you know, there are some emotions. You can say all you want, like, I'm not going to have an emotional connection with this person, right? But if you become long-term and you're having sex with them, there's going to be some level of emotional connection to that person. Now, whether that develops into a loving relationship where you want to move in and, you know, pay each other's bills and raise children together, I think it's all a matter of where that boundary is. Yeah, you have to have that. And drawing a clear boundary of, you know, we can hang out together, we can have sex together, but at the end of the day, I'm going home with my wife and, you know, we're not, we're never going to move in together, we're never going to have children or, you know, pay bills or, you know, So drawing those lines somewhere. We used to say early on in our screening, kind of like what you said, we're sexually non-monogamous, but we're emotionally monogamous. I think that's still true to a point, but now we look at it and we've had friends that we've been friends with for almost 10 years who we've been having sex with for almost 10 years, and we fucking care about them. If their dog gets sick, if their cats get sick, if they're not feeling well and they have some kind of medical We care, yeah. Of course you care. Those are people that you've been friends with for 10 years. There's some type of emotional connection there. I just think it's where that line gets drawn is really what we're talking about. It's hard. It's hard to balance that. Yeah. I love you. That goes beyond my care for you as a friend. And so that's notching it up another level. And that's what those seven rules and My book are saying, don't let yourself get to that point. If you recognize you're getting to that point, then back off. Yes. Yeah, you have to back off. There are, out of the 13 stories, there are five stories that refer to E&M. And again, we didn't have E&M back then, but there's five stories in the book where non-monogamous situations happened, but there were no deep attachments to them. And, you know, they were, I'll just leave it at that. Yeah. You guys should read the book or tell your friends to read the book. We're definitely going to read the book. Yeah. I'm more of an, is it on audio book? Is there an audio book version? There is an audio book. Okay. We'll download it. Kindle and Amazon. Okay. We'll download it. Do you narrate it or does somebody else narrate it? No, I did not narrate it. A professional narrator did, a male narrator. Yeah. Awesome. I'm an audiobook guy. I like it because I can put my headphones in and just listen. I used to travel a lot. I was in the military before this, Sam. I used to travel a lot for that. It was always my goal to read one book each trip I went on. Not enough people are reading these days either. Is that a thing, Sam? I don't know. Fortunately, there's still bookstores that people can walk into. to some independent bookstores. You know, we know the Barnes and Noble. Yeah. Now there's Kindles and e-books and audio books and the whole thing. You brought up another point when, you know, you talked about the AIDS epidemic and then comparing that to the pandemic. And I think you are right when the pandemic, when COVID and all that happened, it shut this country down. But in some ways, I feel like this burst of openness has really happened. happened since COVID. It's almost like while everybody was enclosed in their houses and stuck away from each other, that it really inspired people to look at different ways to connect with people. And I think since COVID, it really, at least in our lives, that's when we've seen this large growth in this community and in this type of lifestyle. You said over the last 10 years, it's been getting more and more open. And I think that's true. And really, in the last five years since COVID, it seems like it's going nuts. I can't attest to that. What I can tell you is my wife and I do date night. We've done it for many years. And date night was going out, having dinner, going to a movie. It had to be a rom-com or something of a sexual nature. And then going to a lounge and then having a few pops and then going home and having sex. Going to the lounge was always great. Meeting people was always great. You never knew where that would go. And then COVID hit. And after a few weeks of staying home, I looked at my wife and I said, hey, hon, we're not doing date night. We got to fix this. So let's do date night. So we began by having dinner at home, then turning on Netflix or Amazon Prime. There's a deluge of sexual content on there as far as movies or series. So we always find something. And then halfway through, whatever the program is, I make margaritas and then after that, jump in bed, maybe throw some porn on and have sex. Some people say, well, you have sex once a week. I mean, like this is a program thing. Well, maybe you look at it as a program. I look at it as it's a healthy lifestyle for us. We know the benefits of sex, you know, boost moods and reduce stress. burn calories, improve sleep. I sleep like a baby after day and night. But, you know, we got back into doing day and night, even though we were going out. We went out a couple of weeks ago and it was fun. So maybe we'll start again. So my point is, to your conversation, I haven't experienced it because we really withdrew after COVID. And then you take in consideration our ages and we're more susceptible to the the effects of COVID. Yeah, that definitely is eye-opening. You know, something like that happening and then forcing so many people in their homes. And like you said, people that are, you know, maybe have pre-existing conditions or are more susceptible to that disease. Some of them have never got back to the reality of life before. See, and I think we didn't really stop. Like on the flip side of that, we were younger, but we didn't. I mean, it might have slowed us down a little, but we just found alternative ways to swing. Like, we went to a swingers club that was classified as a Buddhist temple because it was a religious facility. So they were allowed to be open. Or we went to house parties or stuff like that. So it changed the way we swung for temporarily, but we still did it. Yeah, I think when COVID first happened, when nobody really understood the disease, I mean, we stopped like everybody else stopped because we didn't know what it was and we were scared of it. And I think like the whole, you know, the whole world was. realized that, you know, in younger adults, the seriousness of, you know, the likeliness of death and, you know, not being really exposed to anybody, you know, we weren't close to anybody that was at risk. Our risk levels were pretty low, so we kind of got back to life as best we could, I guess, so to speak. But, yeah, not everybody else was able to do that, for sure. Yeah, scary. It was a scary time. Yeah, definitely. But we personally made up for it. That's awesome. So, you know, you said you were married, what'd you say, 62 years? 62 years. So, there's a lot of people that are hearing probably you talk and say, you know, you've been married for 62 years, non-monogamous for, what, 60 of those years? No, probably, well, let's not try and put a... A lot of those years. A lot of those years. Yeah. You know, we get all the time, the quickest way to get divorced is to become a swinger. Like, people think swinging or non-monogamy equals divorce. And I, you know, from some of the research, you know, the divorce rates of swingers or non-monogamous people is actually a little bit lower than of monogamous people. So, I guess, do you relate the two? Do you think being non-monogamous has helped your relationship? You know, I know the statistics that you've heard of also. One out of two marriages will end up in divorce. That's not a great statistic. And I also have read statistics, tripping over that word, where non-monogamous people have a little bit more success rate than non-monogamous or monogamous people. you're kind of flipping the table on me when you tell me about your circle of friends now and what they're going through. Well, I think that's just an unusual situation. Like we've had some pretty deep discussions about it and like our vanilla friends, how many of our vanilla friends have gone through something. I just think we got our friends need to get their shit together, basically. I'm not telling you anything you guys don't know. A very open group. A fun-loving group. People that are non, as far as sex goes, are non-judgmental. Very sociable, obviously. So it's a great atmosphere to go to a club, to go to an event. Everybody's on a high without taking drugs to begin with. So you can see the the love between the couples when they get to their destination, you know, and while they're going to dinner, whatever. You can see the love that they're sharing. And I think there's a glue there to being non-monogamous because of what the whole scene does for the couple. Yeah, I've always tried to like, like, what, like, why is that? What is it? It kind of comes back to what something you I think it's the communication. I think non-monogamy forces you to have those hard conversations that you can avoid in normal monogamy. And because of that, you get used to having hard conversations. So if you have to have then a hard conversation about money or kids or any of the other things that come up, well, if you've had a conversation about letting your wife have sex with somebody else and and how that's going to happen. Talking about money doesn't seem like that hard anymore. You know what I mean? Like it seems like you've opened up your communication to such a level that there's no conversation that is off the table that you can't have. You know you can talk through these things. You hit the nail on the head. Yeah. And when you talk about divorces, my perception is money can be a huge factor. But my perception is outside of money, it's sex. The bottom line comes down to sex. Somebody having an affair, somebody not satisfied with their own sexual relationship, it's a deal breaker. Big time, big time. If you have a couple who loves each other, they've been together 10, 15 years, loving relationship, but their sexual libidos are on different levels, but they can agree how we can be satisfied. Both of us. What does that mean? Well, it means you want to have sex with other people. I don't, but it's okay with me because I know you love me and it's sex. That breaks the barrier that nobody's running around hiding behind doors. It relieves one of the basic needs of a human being. Taking care of those sexual needs. Yeah. And we've had a lot of discussions of, you know, I think if you came to me and said are you capable of pure monogamy I don't know if I am you know I mean and then you know we've had discussions of like well is monogamy like is that inherent to a person or is it not inherent to a person are there some people that just aren't capable of it and there's other people that are how do you feel do you feel like if you could be monogamous or do you feel like you're just a non-monogamous person and that's how you That's who you are, and to not live that way would be forcing yourself into a box that you're not comfortable in. Yeah. You're asking me to analyze myself going back 60-some years? And I know the answer. Yeah. If my wife hadn't said, you know, I don't want to do this, but if you do, go ahead. And it was a hard no, and Probably at some point in the marriage, there would have been a split at some point. Something else, and it's in the book also, we, you know, there's no escape clause in the marriage vows, right? And you take any religion, and every marriage vow ends with, till death do us part. Jesus. Should be a lot of dead people out there today. Yeah, right. So it's not realistic. As I say, there's no escape clause. When we returned from our honeymoon, I sat my wife down and I said, look, I want to have a conversation. If neither one of us, if either one of us doesn't love the other, then let's promise to end the marriage as quickly and as cleanly as possible. It's not fair to the marriage itself. to the other person to maintain a marriage under those pretenses. Now, why did I do that? Well, I was an only child, and I was an only child in a marriage that was not a good marriage, okay? So I didn't feel I ever wanted to be part of those battles with my wife and have my children go through that. So that was probably why I sat my wife down and said, let's have this pact, okay? So, consequently, going forward, you know, after I kind of got the green light and then things took off because, again, travel and just the opportunities coming one after another, I always felt if I got out that my wife would remember that conversation we had. I think if either one of us doesn't love the other, then let's try and end it. So she remembered that. I never said to her, I don't love you. And every day I tell her I love her. Every day I kiss her and always have and always will as long as we've got left. Sex is sex, okay? And hopefully that held up our relationship for the 60-some years. But going back, Dan, could I have remained? Monogamous? Totally. I don't think it would have happened. Yeah. That's almost hard to admit, right? Because I feel the same way. But when I think in my head, like, could I be monogamous? And I say, no, I don't think I could. In some ways, you almost feel like a failure. You know what I mean? Like, you almost feel like, well, I'm not good enough. But I also think that's realistic. Like, you're being completely honest. And also, the second order effective of that is, well, now you've had this 60-year loving marriage with a partner. that you've been open with and be able to communicate all these things. So had you not been able to work through that and to come up with this agreement that worked for you, you would have lost up maybe on that relationship. And how sad is that? Totally. We've had, knock on wood, we've had 62 years, just great experiences, loving experiences. We have two children, the son and the daughter. We've traveled extensively. We both enjoy sports. We're active. I still play tennis. We play pickleball. We work out three times a week. You know, I'm not sitting here at this moment looking good because it was lucky or it just happened. And we worked at it. But we've worked at it together. We've had these common interests that have kept us going through this experience. Yeah. No, and I think that's, man, it's such a big takeaway, isn't it? You know what I mean? To look at that and think, Because I think a lot of times in relationships, you know, relationships are hard. And I'm sure you and your wife have gone through your own ups and downs. But I feel like sometimes people walk away for reasons that aren't as big as you think they are in the moment. I believe that. Unfortunately, I think it's sad. And again, communication. Yeah, no, I think it's a good lesson for all of us. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So next time Lacey and me get in a fight, I'm going to be like, You need to remember Sam. We can get through this. It's not that big a deal. We can communicate our way through this. Because in the end, everybody wants to be able to look back and be like, we've been together for 60 years and I have my life partner. That's what we all want, I think. You've got to remember Sam and Nancy. Yeah, I love it. It didn't happen without her. I love that. She's a beautiful woman. I love that. We're running a little short on time, Sam. If people are interested in your And they want to learn more about you. Is there somewhere they can go? Yep. SamLFeldman.com. SamLFeldman.com. And they can get your book. You got links. They can learn more about you. And you'll put his website in the show notes. So it'll be easy. It'll be directly linked in the show notes for you guys. So you can go just click the link and head right over there. In these last couple minutes, is there anything else you'd like to tell the swingers of the world that are listening to this podcast? and maybe hearing about you for the first time well i think we've covered quite a bit of territory um yeah yeah i think we've covered quite a bit of territory just folks to to get out there don't and don't let this project 2025 um stop the lifestyles that we all enjoy you know your legislators band together and keep on trucking. Keep on trucking. Yeah, I think that's good advice. We really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with us and tell us a little bit about your life and your story. I think it's going to be inspiring to a lot of people. I know it was pretty inspiring to me and Lacey. So we appreciate you taking the time. Thank you all. Appreciate the opportunity. All right. Well, I think with that, in a world full of apples. Be the pineapple. Be the pineapple guys Bye email them to us at the swing nation at gmail.com make sure you head on over to the swing nation dot net and keep up to date on all things swing nation we thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time goodbye