Episode 132: Our Differences Make Us Better

Transcript

This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey you teenagers out there, if you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello everyone, I'm Mr.

Jonesones and i'm cal and we want to welcome you to episode 132 of the we got a thing podcast welcome back cal it's good to have you again thank you this is one of our expansive connection episode and we're going to talk about our differences make us better yes fun topic yeah these you know these expansion expansive connection people are a little bit sadistic when they like they enjoy bringing these controversial topics up for us to discuss well and you know we we do this on it's kind of like a zoom call so we we have our cameras on and and um you know kel's in one place and Mr.

Jones and I are in another place, but we can see each other. So I kind of think Kel enjoys watching you squirm. I think so. I mean, she has a little devilish smile. Yeah, I do. I like it. I like it. I like taking people's ideas of things and turning them on their head because it's A A, fun, but B, it helps. We get so stuck in routine and we get so stuck in patterns of thought. And it's fun for me as a coach to take an idea that someone's really sure of, i.e. today, differences are terrible, differences are dangerous, differences are bad, and turn that on its head and say, what if they weren't?

Maybe not. Well, before you get into making me feel uncomfortable, let's talk about what's been going on with you. And maybe just a quick introduction and what's happening in your personal life and professional updates. Absolutely. I'm Kel, and I'm one of the coaches with Expansive Connection and thrilled to be here talking with you guys today. Oh, let's see what's going on with me.

Well, my husband and I are not only, I guess, one of the great things about being an Expansive Connection coach, if this is one of the first times you've heard us, go back and listen to all our episodes, but we are all active in some form of non-monogamy. So the four of us coaches are practicing all of this hard uncomfortableness that we're giving to you guys and talking about with you guys every day. So we just got back from a really fun lifestyle trip and met an amazing couple and had a great time. And so we're doing all of that. Like we just got back excitement of, oh, they're so great.

We like them. And when can we see them again? And all of that fun adventuring. So we're in the midst of that. And's summer so that's always a busy time and how many trips and vacations and camps and all the things can we do with active people that have kids and do things so that's busy professionally we have a lot going on the summer is really a great time for us we really kind of usually we buckle down and kind of plan the rest of the year but you'll hear at the end of the episode when I talk about all the things we have upcoming.

We are busy little bees just trying to create and grow and make all kinds of new things for the people that we serve. So, yeah, it's been busy, but really good. Yeah. And I think that it's good. You seem a lot more relaxed.

The last couple of times we've spoken with you, you have been you and your husband have been in the middle of a lot of life changes going on yes yes we have they are they are we we had a kid graduate from college which is always exciting and wonderful but also a big transition to have like a child that's completely off on their own and I guess not a child I said what do you call like like do I introduce people and say I have an adult and then other kids and they're like yes you do so that's a big transition and we moved and we haven't moved in forever and you know you guys know what a joy that is and so you know it's it's been a lot of life stuff but but it's good it's it's ebbs and flows we're in a nice easy time which you know of, as soon as I say that, that'll change, but that's okay.

That's life. Yes, absolutely.

Well, before we move into our topic, one thing that we want to announce is that we have a special announcement coming up next month that we're not going to give you any information on at all, except for it new and exciting it's something that's been in the works for a while it doesn't have anything to do with we got a thing but we're excited for next month because we're going to be making the announcement at the podcast at towards the end of june yeah it's new and exciting for the lifestyle community in general it is yes yes definitely is so well then after we'll take a quick break and be back to talk about how in the world that differences can make us better it doesn't sound very easy but kel's gonna make it easy i'm sure Welcome back to segment two where we're going to dive into our discussion on our differences make us better and i'm thinking like is this going to be like a discussion on variety is the spice of life uh i mean in some ways yes miss jones kind of we're gonna there, I think.

I think really the point of this topic when I brought it to talk about today was one of the most common things that people come to see us as coaches. So we have this platform. We're able to talk to all of your listeners and we're able to give them all this great information. And that's just so exciting for us.

And so when we think about, well, what do we see see people what do people come and sit in the chair with us about difference is one of the biggest things it is so difficult for people and for couples to manage difference and I think that exploring non-monogamy whether you have been married for 30 years or whether you have been married for three months if you are exploring exploring this hobby, this area of fun, it brings up so many differences. And so people come to us and they are in conflict about the differences. They are at odds. They are in disagreement.

They are all of those things that come when we don't agree, when we don't see things the same. And so they come to see us as coaches and they, we always ask them, what, what are you looking for? What's the goal of this coaching? And they're always like, well, can you find a way for us to bridge these differences? Can we find common ground to move forward? And they're often surprised when that's not the outcome.

And when we actually don't make the differences go away, but instead we take these differences and allow this couple or these people to use as an opportunity to grow, to learn, to explore, to get stronger and better. And so we kind of take this thing they want to get rid of and we say, no, let's double down on it and see what's here for you guys. And so I think that was just an interesting way to get to talk to your listeners about this kind of scary topic and one that people that are exploring non-monogamy are going to run into, let me promise you, is different.

Yeah, I think when people have decided to go down this pathway, you've given up the path of least resistance, no matter what your journey looks like. And the one thing, Kel, as I was reading through this topic and thinking about it, I was thinking back to when we first started and some of the experiences that we had and the differences, the different times that I noticed differences in Mrs. Jones or with Mrs. Jones or what she was experiencing.

so i i kind of broke these down in my head like um the types of differences that we experience and they can make us um different levels of uncomfortable uh for example when i first see somebody across the room and and i i really had a hard time with this at first i could never pick out the kind of guy that she was going to be attracted to but he's there i can i can see him he's right in front of me and and i can see how she's engaging with him and it's but it's a non-play uh experience and so you know it's not threatening at all you know and and but i start to see a difference wait he's different than me and she's.

I got it. That's a little bit of a question mark in my mind. Then there's personality. I mean, everybody knows Mrs. Jones is a retired math teacher and, and thanks to Mrs. Jones, everybody knows it took me two times to get through algebra two. So we don't have a lot in common there. So if I hear her talking to somebody about math and spreadsheets and those sorts of things, then I see a different personality than I have. As your eyes are glazing. And you're glad. You're so glad. Yeah, somebody's taking her off my hands at the moment.

But then all of a sudden when it turns physical and you get into physical play and the clothes come off and you start to notice differences, I notice differences from my body and his body, you know, that could be threatening. It could make me insecure. It could distract me. And then, and then I hear her making noises on her side of the bed that I've never heard before. And it gets inside of my head and that difference all of a sudden bothers me a little bit more.

And then during play, if I see him doing something with her that we haven't done before and she's enjoying it, then that really can get in my head. I'm like, he's different from me. How can I be like that? How can I make her make that noise? And I thought after this many years, I was the one that did that for her. And And then of course, if there's a connection, an emotional connection over time, you know, you can develop feelings for somebody else or not. And that can be a big difference or cause a difference in our relationship.

So I was, as I was reading your outline and thinking about differences, all these different things popped into my head about how many times and how many different opportunities there are for these differences to show themselves to us when we, again, go down this path of non-monogamy. Yeah. And I think it's not just all of those differences that you were able to make a list of, But it's how does Mrs. Joan react to those differences?

So you've got it's not just the difference in these other people it's the difference in your partner so suddenly mrs jones is so excited to go talk spreadsheets with this hot sexy guy and she's flushed and she's giddy and suddenly she's texting texting him, you know, Excel tips at midnight. And you're like, what is happening here? And so she's behaving differently. And that's making you uncomfortable because suddenly something that you felt really certain of and really sure of, and you thought you just knew all the things you don't.

And so this change and this difference that we see in these people that we feel like we have known forever, or known long enough that we really feel solid about, suddenly just flips us out. Yeah. And why do we feel that's so, I guess, I don't know if dangerous is the right, right word, but it is scary, for sure, for sure. So differences are hard for really good reasons. You know, I'm not here to say, listen, everybody should just be great with difference. You have a biological wiring that is telling you that differences are dangerous.

The nervous system, everything in our body is really, really trying to create sameness because that feels safer. And this is the challenge of dealing with otherness. You know, there's a, there's a great, you know, talk that we do sort of in the therapeutic world and in the coaching world, which is this, there's always this challenge that while I, of course, I consciously know that I have partnered with another human being, I really don't love the inherent difference between you and me. You know, we don't love that as human beings.

What we want is to minimize distance and create two people into an us. And we sort of want to like create a one singular thing that's the us. And we see this with couples all of the time. You know, we're a team, we're united,'re united, we're, you know, exactly. You know, in people that grew up religious, you know, we're two souls, two flesh becomes one flesh, you know, this idea that we become a unit and we're always seeking that security and that comfort.

And while that is part of relationships, we are also two individuals who are differentiated and distinguished and we have our own ideas and we have our own brains and we have our own systems that are doing things and that can come into conflict with another person. And so I think that the nervous system reacts to things that, as Mrs. Jones said, are scary.

When we feel threatened, our nervous systems come on board they get us all worked up and suddenly we're having a nervous system response that's fight flight freeze we're doing one of those things so something as innocuous as mrs jones texting someone about the you know the latest episode of excel weekly is freaking your body out she's connecting with him she's chatting with him. They're building something together. I don't know what to do about that.

And we just really get into a nervous system reaction that can get us into a non-relational space where suddenly we're not so calm, we're not so kind, and we're not really treating our partner or reacting in the ways that we normally do with our partner. So is that how you're defining, can you maybe more succinctly define what otherness, what you're referring to when you use that term? Sure. Otherness is just the idea that as much as we try to create sataness with our partner, they will always be a completely different person. Oh, okay. It's just that simple. It is, We really trick ourselves.

I talk to couples all the time and I say, you know, what has happened over 10 years, 20 years, 30 years is that you as a couple have gotten on the same page over and over and over again, because of course you've had to. We raise children. We combine our finances. We buy houses and sell houses. We move. We deal with aging parents. We manage calendars together. And what happens is that to do that, to move forward as a couple, we get on the same page. We make agreements. We find one direction and go that way. And we do that so often that the brain makes that the default.

It throws away the negotiation and things that happen to get there. And it just remembers the fact that we have always been aligned. When you aren't aligned, the brain freaks out. And so again, we forget that we are two people. We forget we have different agendas. We forget we have different likes and dislikes. And when that comes forward, we can react in a really aggressive, really upset way. Well, I mean, if we're learning something about ourselves individually, how can we not expect our partner to be learning that about us at the same time?

You know, because there's a lot of things I've learned about myself that I didn't know. And Mrs. Jones is able to experience me going through that. And also, you know, it enhances, well, the way that I looked at it is like, it's just a different aspect of you that I didn't know about. And so it's interesting, you know, I think. I think it has to do with timing. Like, you know, like you just asked a rhetorical question about, you know, how could I not notice it?

Well, it's timing because if you're, if you're processing that in your brain, which you, you tend to do a lot, I mean, you're, you're very introspective and you haven't shared that with me yet, but I've started noticing it. I think that's when, that's when my freak out starts happening. Sure. Sure. You're watching for all of things. We are wired to notice so many visual cues. You know, how much of communication is nonverbal? A lot. We are noticing glances and breathing patterns and body language and shoulder shrugs and eyebrow raises. We are wired to watch these things. And so, of course, Mr.

Jones, as you're saying, I'm learning things about myself all of the time, but you are from start to finish involved in that. You know, the minute you start kind of chewing on something and then you're thinking about it and you're processing it. And before you verbally say it to Mrs. Jones, she's also caught on that something's happening over there. Yeah, she is. She's all up in there. Why? Because she gets emotional. Yes, absolutely. But because her sense of attachment security is at risk. You are her primary attachment figure.

And if you are shifting and she doesn't know about it or she doesn't understand it, it can be scary for her. So suddenly all these emotions are happening and they're big and they're loud and they're scary.

And it's, you know, it's telling us we need to stop this or we need to understand it or we need to be freaked out when maybe we don't difference is scary it makes us feel a lot and i think that again when couples come to us they're trying to they sort of have this all or nothing thinking like we have to find one direction one way so to use your list of differences's around, oh, let's say sexual preference. We have to agree that we are going to be the kind of people that go and explore non-monogamy once a month. That's our preference.

And by the way, when we meet couples, we do A, we do B, we do C, but we never do D. See, we're agreeing. We have to be on the same page. And if we can't agree with that, well, then all is lost. Well, I think a good example of the all or nothing is we would come to you and I would say, whoa, we have a rule. She broke the rule. She broke the rule. She's wrong. It's black and white. And then you coaches come out and say, well, let's talk about what's really going on there and what rule was it broken and why? And I'm like, no, listen, the rule was broken.

I just need somebody to throw the gavel down and rule in my favor. Absolutely, absolutely. And rule in my favor and get us on that track. Get us back to sameness. We're going to do it Mr. Jones's way because that was the rule. So I think if we think about this idea of difference is hard. So we're not saying it's not. And it brings up a lot of emotion. And I think, again, to the beginning of what I was saying, it also brings up a lot of opportunity.

So if we're to think about what comes our way with these big emotions and with these big reactions around difference, and how could we use it as an opportunity to learn, to grow, to change, to be better partners, better individuals. I think there's really four big ones that really jump out to me as ways that we can use the discomfort of difference to make us better. And the first one, I think, is around this idea of being triggered. So when we feel these emotional floods that happen, you know, to Mrs. Jones is, is I'm freaked out. To your point, Mr. Jones, she broke a rule. I'm outraged.

I'm disappointed. Those are big emotions. And so we are flooded with these emotions and we are, this is when we see couples that have some of the biggest and most dramatic arguments is around this idea of difference. They have big feelings and they take those big feelings and they direct them at each other. We don't agree about this. We had a rule. We had an understanding. We had a boundary and he or she broke it. This person is behaving in a way, not only that breaks these rules. I can't even understand how a person could behave this way.

This person wants this thing that I can't even imagine ever wanting. It's making this distance between us so big and so insurmountable.

So they end up in front of us in this really heated space and they're very activated their nervous systems are on fire and so what our job is is to help them slow down help them calm down and really figure out what is this about because if i'm scared that this person who for a lot of these couples I have committed my entire life to, you know, we have bonds and connections and commitments to each other that are so much bigger than this thing that we're arguing about.

so she wants to do this and I don't okay you know in the big scheme of things that's not big thing, but it feels like a huge mountain to climb because we're so triggered by maybe old beliefs that we have, what's right, what's wrong, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. We have some triggering related to our safety. You know, if I have created a safety system with you that says that if you have an emotional connection with someone else, I am now less than or ours is lesser. And that is threatening to me. I'm all worked up about this.

So this discomfort that people feel allows us to ask questions and be curious. What is really happening here? What is underneath these big emotions and this big reaction and really is scaring you.

What's underneath this outrage and this sense of order, what is underneath these big emotions and this big reaction and really is scaring you what's underneath this outrage and and this sense of order what is that giving you and now you don't have this sense of order and you feel out of control okay what now so for example let me give an example if so we have this happen a lot where maybe a couple has decided that they're going to explore this and they're going to all four chat in one platform we're all four going to talk talk. We're all four going to be in the chat.

It's going to be a four-way chat. And we agree with that. And that's our rule, Mr. Jones. And everybody agrees to it. And then suddenly someone comes and says, I would like to chat on my own. I would like to have conversations that you are not a part of.

I would like to have some autonomy and explore something just for me and on the side and her partner freaks out and every time and maybe you know on an intellectual level he's like well that's really not that big of a deal you're right and she's like i'll show them to you i'm not trying to be anything secretive i just want to have some freedom here and so you say okay you agree but every time she's on her phone're freaking out.

You are wondering because she's texting and you're looking over your shoulder and you can't sit in your own little chair and do your own little thing because you're constantly focused on her. And you're making these like snide comments. Every time she picks her phone up, it's like, oh, you're texting your boyfriend now. Super passive aggressive and super diggy at her. And so suddenly you guys are fighting all of the time. Why? Because she's doing this thing that makes you uncomfortable and you're being a big old jerk about it. So you're fighting about her behavior.

She's fighting about your reaction to her behavior. And it's just this big fight that circles and circles and circles. So that couple would come to us and we would say, okay, what is it about her texting that is triggering you? She's being honest. She's being open. But the behavior itself is scaring you. It is giving you some reaction that is threatening to you. Why? And if we can dig in that, we can really find that it's probably not the behavior.

It's a a story about the behavior it's some future focused fear that this is going to lead to x and y and z and i'll never be able to stop that it's it's some old thing maybe you have had issues with honesty and openness in the past about something and this is bringing that forward maybe even another relationship it's never happened here but your old girlfriend went behind your back and did that. So if we can get underneath the feelings, we can really work on what's causing them. And that's helpful. It's interesting that because we can get texts from our kids one-on-one.

We can get texts from a business colleague one-on-one or a neighbor one-on-one and we hear the phone ding it doesn't mean anything but when the swinger ding goes off and i'm not included in it you know then all of a sudden you like you just said i have our by the time that ding has left my ears i've already created a story about what's going on over there on the other side of the couch and this i mean this doesn't happen a lot with us because we do four-way text but i'm just imagining and i remembered when you know i had my jealousy episode 10 years ago that that's how i reacted you know it was like instantly and like i'm what's going on here i'm not I'm not like this right you know I don't want instantly and like, I'm what's going on here.

I'm not, I'm not like this. You know, I don't want to be like this, but there's something going on, not understanding that my brain was literally taking over my thought process. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what you're describing is when we feel emotions, you're triggering is a rush of a certain emotion. And usually we react out of that trigger. You know, suddenly we're yelling, we're screaming, we're pouting, we're avoiding, we're crying, and we're begging for reassurance. We're just having these reactions. But we're not really sure.

And couples will come to us all the time and go, I don't really know why. I just don't like it. I don't really know why. I just don't feel comfortable. And so the work of digging underneath that and finding out what the real emotion at the root is and figuring out if the story is adding to that emotion and making it bigger and stronger and scarier is the beautiful, beautiful, very, very sexy quality of emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is, and Mrs. Jones will love this, it's like solving when you just have the answer.

I'm doing this and I've got it, that's C, and I got to figure out what A and B are. And A and B is this happened and I felt this. And when we can stop and learn to do that, and instead of me coming and having this big reaction, you're doing this and I don't like it and you said you wouldn't and I didn't even want to be here. I can come instead and say, I'm scared. I can come instead and say, I feel left out. I can come instead and say, I feel threatened by this and we need to put some safety things in place so I don't feel so threatened.

Or I need some reassurance from you that my threats, this is not a threat and you're here and you're with me. That is a beautiful relational skill. That sounds like algebra to me. Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm trying to win Ms. Jones over here with my algebraic equations. It's working. When you're using letters instead of numbers and math, you've totally lost me. I don't know. I wanted to ask you before we go on, you said earlier to try to get the person to calm down. I'd really like to know how you do that because whenever I say, hey, you need to calm down, that never works for me. Yes.

Well, you know, I've never sat in a coaching chair and said you need to calm down to anyone. So it's not a good strategy. And I will say this now, we'll talk about this again when we we kind of talk about some tips for this calming down is a individual job me calming me is my job it is always my job and so again you know you saying to mrs jones you should calm down isn't helping her calm down because it's not something that you can even influence it's not something you can help it's not something that you can assist her with. You can see that you would love her to.

You can see that she's struggling, but you can't direct somebody else to do it. It's this individualized thing. And so when couples come to us and they are struggling in the just fieriness of strong emotion, we are always giving them tools to try to regulate their own nervous system. Can you give us some examples of when you start to get to the underlying issue, I think was the term that you used, or the root cause, are there some very common causes that you could throw out that people could nod their head about as they're listening? Sure, sure.

Well, and I think actually what you've done is segue into the second really great benefit, and that is to figure out where you have old wounds. So that's the underneath is this old hurt that I am subconsciously making this into this present situation. So again, let's take the example of I had an old girlfriend and she, you know, didn't treat me well and she was secretive and she cheated on me or whatever. Well, that happens in the past and it hurts us in the past and we go into the future, into the present, and we don't really leave it behind.

You know, it comes with us, that part of us, that person is still inside of us. I always tell people, you are just a Russian nesting doll. And every single version of you that has ever happened is just nested. And the outside one is just the most current version of you. But the one when you were 20 years old that got his heartbroken is still deep inside there. And when we get close to something that again, triggers that old wound, that is like all the other dolls pop off and suddenly here's that young one and he is raring to go about being hurt.

And so, you know, there's a brilliant writer and teacher named Terry Reel. And he says, every person marries their unfinished business. And I think what he means by that is subconsciously. Wait, wait, can you just say that again? Of course. Every person marries their unfinished business. Every person marries their unfinished business. Okay, go ahead. So what he's saying is this.

Subconsciously, we pick partners who are different enough to be interesting different from us and our childhood wounds and our childhood our familiar homes from past people we've dated and been in relationship with so they're different enough to be different you know nobody is gonna marry somebody just like their dad no one's to date someone just like the last jerk they broke up with. Right. So they're different enough, but they are familiar enough to feel safe.

So they are close to something that's maybe a little bit dysfunctional or hurtful or around a wound that your nervous system picks up the, oh, that seems similar. Remember the brain thinks same as safe. Right. So when we meet people, we have this subconscious attraction to something probably unhealthy from long ago. And whether that's when we were a little, little, or whether it's when we're kind of in our twenties and figuring things out, but something that was hurtful or harmful for us that we desperately need to heal.

So just to make sure I understand, and I think I understand a little bit more after that wonderful explanation, even if it's something that was a negative experience that I had, I'm still slightly comfortable with that because it's familiar. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We have this thing we say in coaching and it's that we will choose familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven. And what that means is that if I'm used to it, even if it's terrible, I'm used to it.

And so people every day will marry into a system, which that's what you're creating, that is recreating patterns from their past. And maybe you don't marry somebody just like your dad, but you marry somebody just like your mom. And of course, they're the different gender, but their reactions are just exactly how your mom would have reacted to your dad who you hated. You despise the way your dad treated your mom, treated your brothers, treated your family. And your mom was this super passive, super loving, super kind, not much of a backbone supporter.

and so you of course don't go out and find your dad, but you marry somebody who's super kind and super loving, but not super strong about conflict and really easygoing and doesn't make waves. And suddenly you're in the same system, but just a different kind of changing the chairs around on the deck of the Titanic. I've said a few times over the years, and I don't, I say things that I don't really understand. I'm not even sure. Me too. Me too. I'm glad we both do that. But then a smart therapist comes along and explains the underlying issue. And I'm like, wait a minute.

I think I said that one time. And I remember saying, and we've said this, and sometimes I think swinging or the lifestyle or non-monogamy is a means to an end had we not decided to go down this pathway we may not have had this opportunity to explode these russian dolls and get to the root or whatever is triggering me because that trigger would have been there regardless of whether I came into the lifestyle or not. And it was the same thing when we talked about making friends. We, you know, the friends that we have in our lives now that are non-monogamous are just our best friends.

And that's another, it's another like side benefit. It a feature um and and we're learning that these things it really took the communication that was necessary for us to be successful in quotes in the lifestyle have been have led us to similar conversations that you're talking about and trying to learn things about ourselves so that we then become, you know, we get that off of our back, you know, and we can become who we're supposed to become. Sure.

Well, and I think to answer your question too, so now that we've kind of discussed what these would be, like what we're looking for, we're looking for old hurts, old patterns, or old things that we're still carrying around with us. And you're right, coming into the space that really triggers some fear and some uncertainty can make those things rise up. You know, so if we're making a list of things that people would nod their head as they're listening to this in the car at home or on the, you know, on the treadmill, yeah, that speaks to me. I've done that.

You know, I think there is a list is a list and i'd be curious what you know you guys have been in this long enough and and you are successful in it so there's probably things that you have learned there's there's places where you have pulled back the covers and been like oh darn it that insecurity was there this whole time it was just hidden under a decorative pillow but now now I see it and I need to work on it. Because that's the goal. The goal is, okay, now I feel my feelings and I'm getting underneath them and discovering what's happening here.

And then I'm saying, well, why is this happening here? Oh, it's this old thing that I have going on. And so then the benefit becomes, well, now let's work on it. Let's hear it. Yeah. I mean, another one is just self-confidence and body confidence. You know, when I hear other women compliment me directly, you know, it, it does a lot for me that that's just a benefit because for whatever reason I had a, I had a perception of my own image and just like everyone else, it's always inaccurate. Well, I would just say different.

You know, your image that you have of yourself is often different than what other people see. So I think that's another example of how I've, and a lot of people have benefited from being in this lifestyle. I think that's a beautiful one.

I think how we see ourselves is the way you just described like having confidence in yourself less like and again i think what i think that's a beautiful one i think how we see ourselves is the way you just described like having confidence in yourself let's like and again i think that when we are monogamous relationships the monogamy helps us have confidence it's like oh you're not going anywhere because you can't go anywhere and then suddenly we open this door that's like oh you could go somewhere and we let them choose us over and over again and that brings us a lot of confidence and then we start start to find confidence for ourselves from that other confidence.

You know, I've been chosen. Wow, maybe I'm better than I thought I was. Maybe I'm more attractive. Maybe I'm kinder. Maybe I'm more fun to be with. That brings a lot of healing in that space. I think common ones are a lot of people have fears around being left out.

A lot of people have fears around not being chosen and those go back to childhood you know we have heard and been a child on the playground who wasn't chosen we have been left out of social groups we have not gotten invited to that party or that get that event and we have felt that deep wound of being left out and that can happen in this space you know suddenly you know there's it's a four-way connection and you don't have as much of a connection oh i feel left out or this they all want to do this and i don't i feel left out so that brings this up i think abandonment is a big one a lot of people are desperately afraid of being left you know they were as a child they had a parent who left either physically or just checked out and they are constantly feeling this.

What if they go? And that was there, whether you ever stepped foot into the lifestyle of non-monogamy or not, it's just, man, when you step into this, that's really throwing those covers back. That's stripping the whole bed down to the bed frame. And you're like, oh, way under here, there was this fear that you would leave me eventually. What would you say to, I think of so many couples who come into this and they run into a bump in the road. It's a difference. Sure. And because it's scary and dangerous, you know, they say, you know what, we're out. Let's go back to safe land.

How do you explain to somebody what is on the other side of that? You've come so far. You're right on the verge of an opportunity here. And the easy thing to do and the comfortable thing to do is to retreat. And I think a lot of people do that. But how would you describe, hey, look, if we can just get you over here, this is what you're going to possibly feel or experience? Is there a way that you can? Because a lot of us can't describe that feeling until we've been through it ourselves. Absolutely.

So I think, again, you're rolling right into another huge benefit of difference, and that's this. This is hard. This is difficult. If you are coming to this space and you are feeling triggered around difference or around anything in this space, but around differences especially, you are having to deal with your emotions. Maybe you're doing the work and you're trying to figure out what those emotions are.

You're trying to communicate them to your partner and you're trying to figure out your old wounds and it is hard it is work and it doesn't feel as easy as safe town it doesn't it feels like a lot of effort it feels like a lot of trying and failing and trying again and I think that when I talk to couples about this I say all the time time, if you stick, if you stay, if you get over this mountain that it feels like you're climbing right now, what is on the other side? And I will tell you, Mr.

Jones, that it is very hard to describe to people who have not been through it, but there is a gift of real security on the other side of doing this hard work. When we get through this dark night of the soul that couples sometimes have to go through, there is a beautiful morning that hard things make us stronger. Surviving something as a couple makes us a stronger couple. That is just fact.

And there is a bonding, I think, that happens when couples learn about themselves and, you know, they allow their partner to witness that, to see the emotional intelligence I'm getting by learning my emotions and now I can actually tell them up to you and we can have conversations about them. Oh, by the way, I didn't realize I've been trying to get you to heal this thing in me from my dad and you're never going to be able to do it. It's about time that I did it. And suddenly I'm a better, healthier, healed person. You get to witness that and support that.

You know, there is something bonding about walking a hard road together that walking an easy path does not give you. It just does not. And, you know, for me personally, you know, as I told you, my husband and I are in this personally and we try to meet couples and we're meeting people.

A very unsexy question that I ask couples all the time is tell me about a rough patch in your marriage, in your relationship, because I trust couples more when they have one, because I know that they have worked for the sense of security that me going through something hard and still showing up for myself and you and you going through something hard and still showing up and choosing you and me makes for a couple. It is just unbelievably beautiful. And I can't teach a couple that's walking on easy street boundaries, emotional management, communication skills around hard things.

I can't teach them that. They don't need to know it. It's like, yeah, it doesn't matter. It's like, oh, I don't need to know that. Everything's easy for me. So it's in the stretch, it's in the growth, it's in the training that we get stronger. And that is just true. Well, I can tell you that one little tip that my wife is very good at, and that is not retreating, but saying, let's pause, you know, and what that does is that eases my mind because I'm like, I don't want to go back, you know, let's not overreact and we don't want to lose that.

And she's really good at saying, well, let's just take a pause. Right. Because that way, that doesn't go away. It's just standing still.

And we'll get back to that is the is the implication but but if we put it on pause then all of a sudden whatever it is that we're struggling with is easier to deal with because it's not it's not fogged up with us guess well and we don't get to stuff it in a closet we're not stopping so we don't get to stuff it away right we have to deal with it right and i would say miss jones when you're saying let's take a pause what are you hoping to find in the pause like what are you what do you what do you want to do in that?

Well, I think this is where our differences come into play because I tend to just vomit my feelings out of my mouth and Mr. Jones tends to hold everything in. So we have to pause until we can get at going at the same speed. Right. Yeah. You know, so, and then we can like work it out so that we can come up with a mutually beneficial resolution to moving forward. Yes, yes, absolutely. And if one of you is racing ahead and one of you is dragging behind, we can't do that.

And so it's this ability to, to find each other again, you know, okay, you're struggling over here and I'm struggling over there.

How do we find each other and not miss each other or argue with each other or just make the feelings the the thing we're fighting about versus the stuff and so sometimes we do have to just slow down to do that for sure for sure yeah i love that i love that so the last thing i'll say to couples that again are indifference indifference, are future going to, is that there's a beautiful thing that comes, and I think can only come in this, and it's, there's a great Esther Perel explanation for this, and it's called the paradox of connection, and so Esther Perel talks about this beautifully in her book, Mating in Captivity, and if you've ever listened to her, heard her speak, she talks about this a lot.

And it's this idea that to be intimate with someone, we need to be close. That we want safety and we want togetherness and we want that sense of us. But to have a strong desire, we need space. We need difference. We need distance.

And so desire lives in this gap between us because again I can't desire something that's right on top of me you know desire is a longing for it is a want for and it's very difficult to create that in someone who you're super enmeshed with and always the same and always going the same direction and always making the same cup of coffee every morning and the same you know going the same places and having the same conversations and there's no space there Here we go.

men always going the same direction and always making the same cup of coffee every morning and the same, you know, going the same places and having the same conversations. And there's no space there to actually cultivate a very hot sense of desire. And so if couples can see and appreciate the space that difference gives them, suddenly, you know, we're hacking into this amazing thing that we have with other people.

That's this idea of sort of entering, you know, if I don't know everything about you, if you want something different for me, if you believe in doing this a different way than me, then suddenly, if I can see that without it being a threat key point there i can be curious about it and suddenly i'm sitting with someone that i don't know exactly what they think i don't know exactly what they're going to do i don't know exactly what they're going to say and i can actually be curious and learn about them in a new way yeah i can totally relate to that like an example of that and i've heard esther perel talk on this a couple of times.

She was like the first therapist that we ever found that would, that talked about sexuality and desire and just a different, just a different way to talk about relationships other than, you know, the typical what you get at a Christian marriage conference, right? For sure. Obviously, this was before we met you and Catherine. But we're huge fans. We love Esther Perel. She is absolutely the best. Yes. And actually, she did a TED Talk, this very TED Talk that you're describing this topic, and it just blew me away.

yeah and and what what i can relate it to is that when we mrs jones and i first met and we go back to your example about new relationship energy cal that part of that energy is i i want to get her i i want to close that i want her to be mine you know so part of it is yes there's an attractiveness and we like to get to know each other but that energy like i want that energy i want that with me fast forward to when we're in the lifestyle and i see her on the other side of the bed with somebody else that same feeling kicks back in like i want i want her now not that I'm losing her, but I'm attracted to that feeling of that energy is renewed.

And this makes no sense to people who said, what do you mean you let your wife have sex with other people and that makes you want her more? But it's that same feeling that I had when we first met that I get when I see her with somebody else. Not like I'm going to lose her, but that desire you described. And that desire drives that energy, which drives that desire, that closeness to after 10, 20, 30 know, it, it kind of rekindles that fire again. Yeah. There's pursuit. You know, we don't pursue something in our hands. There's, that would be ridiculous. Why would we spend the energy to do that?

And so, but there's something beautiful about pursuit. There's something beautiful about longing for someone. And so I think that if we can look at difference with a curious spirit, you know, if I can put, and we're going to have to kind of do these in order. I can't be in this super space of trigger and do this. I can't be still carrying all of these wounds and all of this hurt around and do this.

You know, I have to have really, really done some, some work and gotten through some of this dark night of the soul searching and learning some skills and doing this in a good way but the other side is this idea of huh so what do you like about that person and what is it about this that's making you want to do this and tell me what your brain is thinking like what why do you desire this why do you want that see at the beginning we're like how could you ever want something like that what a different way to ask is, hey, how could you want this? Why do you want that?

See, at the beginning, we were like, how could you ever want something like that? What a different way to ask is, hey, how could you want this? Why do you want this? What do you want? That is such a different way of asking the same thing because the first one's not asking, it's judging. Now I'm curious. Now I want to know. And again, what kind of fun conversations are you having suddenly over cocktails?

It's this, have you ever this would you ever want to do this what do you think about that person what do you think about what I did and that is such an adventurous way to communicate and sometimes we don't have that and again if we go back to that couple that's like well this is too hard I'm going to go going to go back to easy street. Okay. There's not a lot of adventure there. I think at first it's scary to be curious because then you're going to hear the answer. Yeah. And what if the answer is different than what you thought he was going to say?

You know, you think you know somebody so well. And then all of a sudden they start sharing these thoughts and desires that you feel like after being with somebody for decades you should already know that about them right yeah yeah or you just didn't expect them to say it yeah again if you think about a first date people say things all the time and you don't expect you don't have any expectations it's like i don't even know what you're going to say here so i'm going to let you open whatever comes out, comes out. So it's letting go of that.

I need to be sure that what you're going to say is what I'm going to expect. You know, sometimes difference isn't even difference with me. It's difference in what I think you should be or who I thought you were or what you've always been. And I'll tell you, that's another thing that non-monogamy does is suddenly people are different.

They aren't the same old, you know, person that you've been waking up with they are they're going to the gym and they're reading books and they're listening to podcasts and they're having these different conversations and you're like who are you and if you ask that in a way that is who are you it can be a lot of fun it can be a lot of just great conversations and great adventures, but you have to be able to put down that it's scary. Yeah. You're going to have to do some work with the threat. At first, when we first got in the lifestyle, Mr. Jones was always just a very quiet person.

He was actually rather shy. And as we got into the lifestyle more and more and more, he really came out of his shell. And I remember sometimes thinking why couldn't i bring that out in him you know and and you you really have to like let that go like be curious about it without being like like judging yourself like what's lacking in me that i didn't allow him to grow in that you you know, in that certain aspect? Right. Well, I have a list. I think that's one of those moments I should have just let go. I didn't even hear Mrs. Jones ask that question to get what you said.

So I want to, before we wrap up, just a few practical questions and uh we had some comments from our listeners in the community but speaking of differences when a difference is noticed one partner may process it differently than another so how do you talk to a couple who one of them wants to talk about it on the way home from the play session and the other one needs like three or four days to kind of wrap their heads around that? Can you guess who's who? No, honey, this is an anonymous listener. Yes, yes. This is a write-in. Too late.

So I think it becomes, you know, we all have to sort of rank how important to me this is and how important this is to you. So I, when couples have that big of a difference, because that's a big, that's a big difference in processing. I need to verbally process this. I need to talk it out. I got to get it out of my head and get it through my mouth and into the world and hear it out loud. That's great. And that's important. But if somebody else has a I can't take in any data because I'm already flooded with my own data and I'm going to have to sort this out and I've got to make sense of it.

And if you add your data to my data, it may corrupt it.

And or I may have a visceral reaction to your data because i'm i just need time with mine it's really up to the couple to say which of those needs is bigger because i don't know you know i don't know if the verbal processor could write it all down you know if they could be like okay right i'm going to keep a book in the car and we leave i'm going to write down every single thing that i want to say and then i'm going to give you time to think and then we're going to have this great conversation i'm going to share about it i don't know if the person who has too much data is just like i could have you could talk and i could kind of ignore you if i could just drive and i don't really have to respond and you just need to great do it right so it becomes again this negotiation it's not just all or nothing it's just not yes or no it's well which of these things is more important than the other for us right and how could we make this work to where we both get what we need you know it's that there's not just one answer or two answers there's 200 ways to do this yeah i just think that uh in that scenario and this is not us but you know this the person that wants to talk about it on the way home can get spun up about whatever happened but they can also get spun up as you don't think this is a problem like you don't want to talk about it on the way home can get spun up about whatever happened but they can also get spun up as you don't think this is a problem like you don't want to talk about this right now well that's another problem and it just can seem to just pile on one on top of the other so um so speaking of processing though can you like what is the difference in you that you can help people with overthink reflecting and overthinking like where is that Can you, like, what is the difference that you can help people with reflecting and overthinking?

Like, where is that line? If I need to process things before I talk about these differences, I can also slip into this overthinking mode where, well, I've thought of three or four different things. Let me think about this another week or two and see how many more things. Where is that slippery slope there? Where is that line? Sure. And again, I think it's different for everybody. But I do think when people, there's a difference between reflecting and overthinking and even ruminating. So it's almost like we're going dot. I can reflect and think.

And some people do that really, really quick quick and some people do that a little slower and that's okay I can I think what am I reflecting for it's always when I'm when I get myself into a thought loop the way to pull myself out is to say why am I thinking about this to what purpose are these thoughts you know we are actually in a lot more control of our thinking than we think we are. I wish someone long ago had told me, Hey, by the way, you don't actually have to keep thinking that. Right. That would have been revelationary for me. I would have been like, what?

I mean, if I have it come in my brain, I don't need to like immediately hold onto it. And it becomes like written in my Bible forever and ever. No, we are the deciders of our thoughts. We are the controllers of our thoughts. And so I think that we, if we think about ourselves as directors, we need to be telling these thoughts what their job is. What am I doing this for? Why am I having this? So when I'm reflecting, for what? To share with my partner, to figure out why I had this emotional reaction. Or to avoid talking about it. Sure. To avoid talking about it. Yeah. Okay.

Well, then probably I need to go and say, hey, I don't really want to talk about this. And here's why. Because again, nobody says you have to talk about everything. We do not have a right when we partner with someone to every thought in their head. We just don't. And so I think that it's, but we do have a responsibility to tell our partner what's going on with us. Yeah. And so avoidance, if that's why I'm overthinking. So suddenly it's been a week and I'm still spending this and I asked myself, why am I still thinking about this? Am I trying to solve a problem?

No, I just don't want to go talk to Mrs. Jones about it.

Then that means I need to go to mrs jones and say you know what i don't really want to talk about this and i'm just spinning on it and i think if i just tell you i don't know that i never want to talk about it i could put it aside that tends to or maybe i do need to talk about it and i'm just using that as an excuse you know but that's again that's on me um so when like okay when when a couple comes to see you um you probably have a an idea right away whether they came in too soon or whether they waited too long so as a couple when should we start thinking about hey maybe we should talk to somebody about this sure i think that when the conversations have become circular we are not no new data is entering the circle it is you did this you did this i did this you did this and it is just round and round and round a independent third party is a gift right someone to sort of come into the conversation and be a fresh voice in the room and stop that circle is a blessing.

It is a help. And it may be you have one session with someone, you tell them the loop you're in, and they're able to and sort it all out. And then you go forward and make progress. It doesn't have to be this long term necessarily relationship. It could be, but it doesn't have to be.

Sometimes we just need somebody to sift through all the stuff and give us a new way to go and sometimes it can be friends or uh and even in our community it's funny because every once in a while in the in the men's group somebody will say okay guys uh you you got to help us settle an argument uh now who do you think is right me or my wife you know and that's a little bit, I'm making humor of it.

But still, any kind of a third-party perspective can be breaking that logjam of, oh, when I hear somebody else, maybe I do need to think about it a different way because somebody else has kind of interrupted that circular thing that you just described yeah i think two other places that i would really say to come to coaching or therapy is when you feel stuck so we're not circling anymore we're just stuck and then lastly before we make any huge shifts in relationship status you know yeah Don't give up on either either this journey or god forbid a bigger part like your relationship without at least having another person run that by with you the last one's a trick question um how long does this process take to get through in three easy sessions we can solve all of your relational problems.

No. I mean, I think that depends. I think sometimes it is one conversation. Sometimes the clarity that having someone here and have empathy for both people and, or even just one person, if it's individual coaching and reflecting back a different way of hearing, um, what they're feeling and seeing, and just having that said back to them can be life-changing. It can be relationship altering. I've had couples and individuals come for one session and never saw them again and then saw them at an event or saw them and they come up to me and say, you don't know how much that won.

And I, you know, they leave and I think, well, that was obviously not much of a success for them because I never saw them again. But it was so much of a success for success for them that I never needed to see them again. So, sure, it could be one time. But I will say, if we're talking about working on changes at the level of how we feel and the wounds we have around that and the things that are subconsciously triggering us, you know, to react like that versus respond, you're really talking about changing your brain. You know, we're talking about a big word called neuroplasticity.

And that is a slow but really important process. And so our brains are not fixed. They are always growing. Even no matter how old we are, our brains can grow and change. And when we are trying to change a reactive state, when this happens, I do that. We can, but we're really growing a new neural pathway in our brain to do that. We have an automatic thing of when this happens, I do this. When this happens, I do this. And if we want to shift that, we have to grow some different brain tissues and different paths.

And that process about 18 months for most people so for me to have an like this reaction that is different than the one i've had in the past every single time you're it's a long haul it's a long process would you say would you say that it gets shorter than 18 months if it's like our third or fourth or fifth time go-round of successfully doing that? Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. You're learning that as you go. But what I'm saying is that a lot of people will say, I'm tired of getting triggered about this. I've gotten so much better.

It doesn't happen every time, but I just don't want to feel this way anymore. And I usually encourage them of like, hey, you've been working on this for six six months let's give it another six months it takes longer than people think we you know behavior change and emotional change is not memorization you know i i had this realization it's not again this is jones map i don't know that three times three is nine and then know it and know it forever in relationships.

I learned that when my partner shows more attention to someone else than me, I feel triggered in this way of being left out or being left or not being as good as. And I can know that, but I can't then bring that back up that it's not really scary and I don't need to have a reaction to it the same way when I memorize something. You know, I always know the capital of Washington because I learned it one time and I memorized it, but it doesn't work like that with behavior change. It doesn't work like that with triggers. So it's going to take a while. It's not just know better, do better.

It's know better, practice, fail, do better. And so that's longer. And I say that not to discourage people, but to give people grace. You know, this is great work, but it's hard and it's slow. And you're going to fail and you're going to win and you're going to win some more. And then you're going to fail and you're going to think you've got it handled and you'll drop the ball. And that's all part of the process. So I guess as we start to wrap up and summarize, somebody somebody very wise said to me... I'm being patted on the back right now.

No, I didn't necessarily want to give you credit for that. We were talking about something one time after a play session, and Mrs. Jones said, different doesn't necessarily mean better. So I think the things that I'm taking away from differences are we, I, I think a lot of us tend to, when we hear the word different, or there's something different, there's a negative connotation to that. And it's not negative. It's just different. It's a neutral statement that needs to be explored. I mean, it could be positive or negative.

But, you know, i think trying to just think of the word different as not being the enemy that it could really be good i mean it could lead to something good like like we've been talking about um and i think as if catherine were here i mean i'm sorry to channel my inner catherine but i mean differences are bigOLs. Absolutely. And you all get excited about those things, you know, a lot more than we do. We do. Yeah.

And I think that, I said this at the outset, but working through differences make you as an individual more the person of a whole person or who you really are, can be, or are designed to be, or whatever word you want to use there. And then obviously, if I become more of a whole person, then our relationship is going to benefit from that and vice versa. So those are the things that kind of came to mind as I was thinking about this episode and everything that we've talked about. Yeah.

I think that people feeling like just because it's hard and just because it's scary and just because it's a struggle, again, like you said, doesn't mean it's bad.

and i think that again it's a struggle again like you said doesn't mean it's bad and i think that again there's a beauty in working through something hard and coming through the other side as individuals first you know you're completely right mr jones i have the best partnership when me myself and my partner show up as the best versions of us that is what makes a great relationship two people who are at that moment being the best versions of themselves they can be And I'll see through the struggle of difference, we can really find that out.

Well, I think that's what keeps our relationship growing and thriving is because we do start recognizing those differences in each other and ourselves and then you know acknowledging them and working through them which means our relationship is is changing you know that's for most of the time that ends up in a good way yeah but i think after be after having a relationship with one partner for so long you you've got to, you don't want it to stay the same. You know, you want it to keep growing. And I, you know, and the differences I've noticed in Mr.

Jones have actually been pretty amazing over, you know, the 10 years that we've been doing this together. Yeah, I agree. I agree.

I think that this is a beautiful opportunity to have some fresh in a relationship i mean a stale relationship is not sure it's easy but is it the best and the most fun and the most adventurous no so again just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not gonna have a great outcome yeah i think that this is a place where if we can learn to respect and honor and even like praise these places where we're different and where our partner's different than they were maybe 10 years ago, it can really be a beautiful thing in a relationship.

You know, a lot of people tell us and actually people tell us personally, like our friends that we've known for a long time and other couples that we've met in the lifestyle have told us similar things about how people say, you guys are so happy. You look so good together. What's your secret? And I think that really the secret is part of this. It's the work we've put in. Yeah, absolutely. And lastly, the capital of Washington is Olympia. I knew it wasn't Seattle, but since you made that reference, I've been sitting here thinking, I know it's not Seattle. I know it's not Tacoma. Good.

I picked a hard one on purpose. Don't you remember fifth grade when you had to do all the capitals? I do, and I memorized them all. Well, and then we help our kids memorize them, but our kids are old. That was a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, you know. Well, next month, Jason from Expansive Connection is going to be with us to talk about common fears before entering the lifestyle. So we're looking forward to that. And before we let you go, Kel, what's going on?

You talked early at the outset about maybe some events or workshops that are coming up for Expansive Connection and how can people find information about those? Absolutely. We are so excited. We have a lot of really great things going on. And first of all, I'll start with how you can find us. The best way to find us is to go to our website, which is www.expansiveconnection.com slash E-N-M. And there you're going to find all of our offerings. You'll find information about all the things I'm talking about.

You can always send us an email through there and connect with us and just put in the message like, I want information about this or that. And our amazing admin team will get back with you right away about that.

So whether it's personal coaching or whether it's one of these events i'm going to talk to you about that's the way to do it so what do we have going on the thing that katherine and i are the most excited about right now is that we have started some peer facilitated men's and ladies groups and what these are are small closed groups that are going to commit to meet for six months with other people who are either in ethical non-monogamy or are thinking about it. They want a space to talk about it.

And so we have created, at this point, we have at least three men's groups that are going to meet every other week. So they're going to meet twice a month for 90 minutes for a period of six months. They're committing to this container to kind of do life with these other guys. And then the title of those men's group is Masculinity Matters. And we are going to be, they're led by other men. Us coaches are supporting them. We're giving them all kinds of great benefits to be in those groups, but this is completely and totally peer led.

It's you and your guys working together to figure out what you're going to figure out and what you can offer to each other. And so those are starting soon and we're going to run them every six months. So right now there's one last chance for people to come to one for free and that's May 27th. But if you're hearing this after that and you're interested, reach out because we're going to be starting them and these kind of periodically ways to do it. We're doing one for ladies as well.

It's called the ladies room and it's going to be all of this great female energy supporting each other in the space and those start june 12th and you can reach out for more information about those if you'd like to join that it's the first meeting is totally free you can figure out if it's for you and then there's a cost involved and it's going to be like i said a closed confidential group for you and some people that will really be a support for you i think it's going to be a great thing we're really really excited about it um something else we're really excited about is our couples retreats we have had a great couples retreat in um the spring it was a huge success we could not have been happier with it so we're already planning two more one will be in september of 2025 in north georgia with katherine and i and then in february of 26 we're planning one in the dustin florida area and katherine and michelle and i will be for that one down at the beach so if you're interested in doing a long weekend with us to really do a deep dive on your relationship to really get into a space with other people that are in non-monogamy it'll be a sexy fun space but it'll really be focused on relational work reach out to us about those we'd love to get you information about that.

We're also having some ladies retreats. Catherine has two in the fall in the Tennessee area, one focused on pleasure and one focused on menopause. And those are happening in the fall. And last, we are going to do a summer sexual health workshop. It's going to be three workshops, one for women, one for men, and one for couples. And all of that is coming soon, all about sexual health. So we have been very busy creating lots of fun, amazing things, and coaching, and doing all the other things we do. So we're excited about what we have coming up. That is exciting. Wow. There's a lot going on.

Yeah. And you can also find Expansive Connection on our website at wegotathing.com. Expansive Connection also has a space in our community where these lovely ladies and gentlemen hang out during the day and interact with our community. So that's very cool. And you can also send me an email at mrjones at wegotathing.com and I can refer you to Expansive Connection to get those questions answered.

And you you know what we have one more announcement that i think we can make now and that is we we just hired somebody to help us be our social media manager wow yay yes so pretty soon um we will we will be back on social media i can't say for sure yet. We're trying to be a little bit thoughtful about it. Uh, but we feel like the, where our community is now and how much it's grown and how established it is that we need to, again, um, both of us are horrible at social media. So we hired, uh, somebody to do that for us.

So another big, you know, kind of investment that we're making in our community. And hopefully that is going to help other people find not only us, but our partners like Expansive Connection as well. And just like all of our partners, this person is, you know, aware of the ethical non-monogamy community. We're not hiring somebody cold, you know, off of a Google search. So it'll be, I think, a really good partnership. Yes, definitely. Well, thanks again, Kel. It's been a really fun conversation. And hopefully, I know at least two people have learned something for the past hour.

I'm sure other people will too, but it's always a pleasure. It's always a lot of fun talking with you. Thank you so much for the opportunity to chat. It was a great one. And we're hoping that one of these days you're going to, you and your husband are going to join us again and we can do one of these live again in person. Yeah, that was fun. Yeah, absolutely. We'll get it on the books. All right. We're going to hold you to that. All right. Well, thanks for listening. We are Mr. and Mrs. Jones. And I'm Kel with Expansive Connection. And we got a thing. What's your thing?

We'll see you next time.