Episode 150: Is the Lifestyle Addictive?

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey, you teenagers out there. If you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello, everyone. I'm Mr. Jones. And I'm Mrs. Jones. And I'm Catherine with Expansive Connection. And we want to welcome you to episode 150 of the We Got a Thing podcast. And we're a little bit late with 150. And because somebody Was a little bit under the weather. Yes. When we were supposed to record a couple weeks ago. That was me. We actually had a team meeting that day and they all said that my sinus infection did not sound sexy and that I should just win our recording. I got very clear feedback from my team. I don't know. Sometimes Mr. Jones likes the whole Kathleen Turner raspy voice thing going on because I had been sick right before you. Uh-huh. I think if we waited a few days, I could have had that, but this was more like The Chipmunks or Minnie Mouse because it was all up in my nose. So not sexy. So I guess we're going to have March Madness and have two episodes in March maybe. There you go. Yes, we are. Actually, that's going to work out fine. So we're going to talk about, well, you're going to help us answer the question is the lifestyle addictive. And maybe, I'm not sure if your sickness was related to a lifestyle event, but I can say usually when we come home from an event, one of us, if nothing else, else has a little bit of laryngitis, but often turns into something a little bit more. Well, I think, yeah, my sickness, I think came from the strip club in Las Vegas. I mean, what, what better way to get sick? What a great answer. It was terrible. And I gave it to a couple of friends, you know, gotta spread the love. And I had no regrets. Yeah, it certainly beats the, when we were getting sick from the Petri dishes that our children were in preschool, right? But before we get to that, we were just talking before I hit the record button, and you are on a little bit of a high. So let's talk about some of the things that you Expansive Connection had going on in the recent past. Yes. So speaking of addiction, yes, I still feel a little bit high. I'm definitely on a high from our retreat that we just wrapped up in Destin. It was called Learn, Lust, and Love. And so we had a couples retreat focused. on eroticism really so we had everyone take the erotic blueprint by the amazing Jaya and we also had them take a kink inventory just to understand a little bit more about the kink side of the erotic blueprint and we created a sensual room we created a kink room we did an energetic experience to help people understand the energetic side of the erotic blueprint we had a playroom so that checked the box for the sexual blueprint and we did demonstrations of all of them We talked about how to, we gave couples tips on how to better communicate their desires and especially how to talk about them if they're different from their partner. Because this, as we've talked about many times, often we have our security with our partner based on how the same we are. And then when you start throwing in different types of sex with different types of people, boy, do we see differences come up. And if you, if you've had security, meaning if the sameness was the basis of your security, those differences can feel really scary. So we, of course, Cheryl did a beautiful job with the food and all the decorations. And we got to have Miche with us this time, as well as my best friend, Ashley, who came in on your community. She's a lesbian anatomy professor. So she taught us all sorts of things about our lady bits. And we just, it was such a great group of people. We laughed a lot. The weather was so-so, which honestly we all appreciated because if the worse the weather is, the more interesting we are if we're at a beach house you know if it's sunny and beautiful we are not going to compete with it right but it was just workshop at an event and and people have to come in from the pool when it's sunny out like the attendance you just know is going to be atrocious and i don't blame them i don't either i swear i'd rather be too right so um and then i got to from right from that we got to have our expansive connection annual in-person powwow where we scheme and dream and talk about the things we have coming up and And I was sitting in a conference room, looking around, hearing these amazing people that I've gathered to be my team and that I get to work with. And I got teary. I just overwhelmed how lucky I am to be surrounded by these people and how excited we all are for the things we have coming. So there'll be a lot of things to share with you later, but that's what I'm high on at the moment, professionally. And then personally, I have some exciting news. You've all heard about my partner, Ryan, from the episodes that We did about how much my life has changed so much last year. And he has just started grad school for counseling. Oh, my gosh. That's fantastic. I know. He comes from a recreation background. He has already had a master's in that and was like, wow, with a master's degree in recreation management, you make $12 an hour. So he ended up going back and learning the trade of electricity to be an electrician. And he's been an electrician for almost 10 years. And at our trip to Hedo, he said, I can't keep doing the work I'm doing. I'm watching all these happy people live to the absolute edges of their skin. And there's so much of my brain and my heart that are not being stimulated at work. And I don't want to be that separate. I want to be living what I love. So he is listening to him. It's been so fun to kind of learn my field again through his beginner eyes and seeing what lights him up and what he's absorbing and how he's understanding it and the conversations. I feel like I'm falling in love with this new side of him in a whole new way. So that's been really fun on the personal side. That's amazing. Good for him and good for you. I mean, maybe it's just a little bit of self-defense on his part. That's what I was going to say. I wonder if he's doing this because of self-defense. Oh, that's funny. And ironically enough, for the title of our podcast today, he's 10 years sober. is really passionate about working with people with substance abuse. So that's what he wants his focus to be. And so anyway, it'll be an exciting journey to walk with him on. And I think he'll, I'm certainly trying to get him to be more involved in my retreats and things like that now that his schedule is a little more flexible. And maybe by the end, we'll just try to pull him over to the dark side and he can work with us, you know? Yeah. We'll see how that line of professionalism and personal relationships that blends together with you then. Yes, very interesting. Oh, well, it sounds like that's really exciting, everything that Expansive Connection has going on. And I was also a part of the call over the week. Mrs. Jones was a part of the call as well. And we got to talk about some of the things that we're going to collaborate on next year. But that's information for the near future. And Mrs. Jones and I will be talking about where in the world we've been the past three weeks on our next episode, which we're excited to get ready to record as well. So at the end of the podcast, we'll talk about what you have coming up. I think this is probably a good time to get into is the lifestyle addictive? And I will say absolute warning that this is some nerdy stuff. And of course, that gets me super excited. So if I get too much in teacher mode or I get too counselors or scientific, you stop me. Jump me in. Jump in, ask questions. You'll see I get really excited about this. So let's explore. We'll just say something in layman's terms like we normally do and we'll bring everybody back down to reality. Excellent. That's why we work so well together. The roadmap for us to explore this, I thought we would focus on how we've talked about before that the lifestyle, ethical non-monogamy, I'm going to use those terms kind of interchangeably for this, provides our brains with some of its favorite internally derived chemical cocktails. So we have this chemical cocktail that feels so good in our brain. And the key components at play with that cocktail is NRE, new relationship energy, novelty, desensitization, addiction, as we're going to talk about, and this thing called the pleasure paradox. And then we're going to wrap it up looking at how these things that we've learned, how it shows up in lifestyle or E&M and our attachment relationships, meaning the ones are, you know, our primary partners, if you use that word, our spouse, are the people that we led into the inner sanctum of our heart that we're attached to. And then what do we do with this knowledge? If we, you know, when we come to the end, what we decide, what do we do with it? So that's the roadmap. Well, hopefully you can give new relationship energy. Either people love it or after they've experienced it, they hate it. Yes. So, but in a neutral capacity, understanding what it is and how it affects us. especially in this lifestyle is really important yes we're going to jump right into that and we're going to talk about at the end we talk about how it affects our relationship we'll talk about why that is why some people love it and some hate it why for some people it jazzes them up and the other it's like get that crap out of my system so nre new relationship energy it produces that like i said this powerful brain chemical cocktail of a few different um a few different things so we've got dopamine serotonin and Those work together to create feelings of motivation, desire, and attraction. And then oxytocin jumps in and it helps. That's the one that helps the bonds between humans. That's the one that women get flooded with when they're breastfeeding. Then babies get flooded with while they're breastfeeding. So it's this bonding hormone. So here we've got motivation, desire, attraction, and bonding. What could go wrong? Yeah, what could go wrong? is that this cocktail hits the same neural pathways in our brain as cocaine. So pretty powerful. And then, of course, has the potential for addiction. Also, NRE pulls on our brain's love for novelty, which we're going to dive into a little bit more. And it has this, it's because it's so intensely pleasurable, it engages the pleasure paradox in our brain. Again, we're going to get to that. And NRE, when it hits, it hits hard and it can last anywhere from six months, to five years, depending on the variables. So sometimes it can be hard to see it as NRE. If it keeps going on, it starts to feel like the paradigm or it's what our life is, or we think that what we're seeing through the lens of NRE must be real life. So it's complicated. The other thing that's interesting about NRE is it isn't just with a person. New relationship energy can happen with anything that we have a relationship with. So certainly it could be with people. And in our lives, that could be new couples, a new single person, new friends. It could be with a new community, like when people join the We Got a Thing community and they are just high on the excitement of all these people they can connect with, or even a group that they just like to do exciting things with. You could have new relationship energy with different types of events. So if you go to a hotel takeover and you love it and you keep going to hotel takeovers because you just have this NRE with it, and then maybe eventually it subsides and then you go to a sex club and you have that that big rush all over again because it's a new relationship with a new type of event same thing with resorts maybe you're a desire person for ever and ever and then you go to hito and you feel that that newness again that you felt when you first went to desire and then the last one i would point out is the type of relationships that we may explore in this ethical non-monogamy thing so you know the dtf we've got friends with benefits dtf meaning down to fuck which is can be kind of a dismissive acronym but if we're just looking for the physical, right? So it could be that type of relationship, a friends with benefits, swinging, swally, poly. You can have new relationship energy with your relationship to any of those things. Okay. Well, we're going to talk about novelty fits well, I think, especially when you're new to the lifestyle. Right. Because there's so much that is new for us. There's so many different things that can be new. All right. So, you know, I always love to go back to kind of that evolutionary standpoint to understand how we as just kind of basic mammals, why these things are so powerful. And so from that standpoint, seeking novelty is a survival trait. It certainly was a survival trait for us. Because new environments meant new opportunities, which could be like food sources, water, shelter, and also new sources of threat, like predators or environmental factors that were dangerous. All of this, whatever that newness was, told our brains to be extra aware. So it lights our brains up. Like, this is important. And so our ancestors, who were curious and attentive to change, were more likely to adapt, escape danger, and find opportunities, which helped those humans with those traits stick around and mate and eventually produce us. So it's pretty hardwired in for us to love novelty. It kept us alive. So today, that same brain circuitry that once scanned for, like, juicy mango trees or predators things as our modern selves engage in this sexy fun so that brain circuitry is looking for new excitement new content fresh new messages from sexy friends new experiences and so when something new shows up our brain fires up it says pay attention this might be important even though we're wired that way now that we're in a place in today's life where we don't have the same concerns this is a new up these opportunities opportunities are new ways that the same chemicals are produced are now firing up for different reasons. Okay. Correct. Correct. And, and, you know, some people are like, well, why are we still beholden to that, that circuitry? Well, again, when you look at our timeline as, as humans walking on this planet, you know, the fact that we get new content from Instagram is, you know, one 18th of a second in comparison to how long we've been using this circuitry to keep ourselves alive, looking for food and staying away for predators. So, That's been around a long time. That part is not going to evolve. It's not evolved. There's no way it could evolve as fast as the stimulus around us in our environment has evolved. Right. All right. So we're going to get pretty nerdy. Well, I'm going to say this. I think it's going to feel really nerdy for some. And then I'm going to ask people to forgive my oversimplification if they're well-versed in the miraculous workings of neuroscience. So hold on for a second. Hold on. We're going to get back to normal talk in a minute. So I want to talk about the key neurological players that drive novelty seeking. So first we have dopamine. This is a word that most people have at least heard of. So this is a neurotransmitter and hormone produced in the brain that acts as a chemical messenger and it transmits signals between nerve cells. It's crucial for the brain's reward system. So it helps to regulate motivation, pleasure, mood, attention, memory, and even motor control. It functions by reinforcing behaviors, making you want to repeat pleasurable actions. But here's the thing. It doesn't just reward success. It rewards the pursuit of novelty. So it keeps us looking for more, making it crucial for our motivation. So dopamine wants us to keep looking. And if you think about who would be the most crafty humans, the ones that were constantly motivated to look for more, more ways to avoid threats, more ways to find the and juicy mango trees so dopamine is really it isn't just about pleasure it's it's really focused on the pursuit motivation okay so then we're looking at these different areas so we have the ventral tegmental area i'm going to call that the vta this is a crucial group of neurons in the mid-brain that at that serves as the primary origin for the brain's dopamine reward system right so it's playing a key role in processing both the rewards and noticing those stress-related experiences. So this VTA, nearly all substances, including drugs and alcohol, increase dopamine release from that VTA, which signals when something is new or unexpected. So it's kicking off this dopamine release. This is something new or unexpected. And then the hippocampus, you've heard me talk about that one before, our little hippo, that's our filing system. So it registers novelty and passes it on to the reward system to determine if it's it's worthy of attention. This creates, and so the hippocampus is creating context-specific memories that, when triggered, drive the cravings and relapse, and even after the high is over. So it's reminding us like, ooh, so we're not high anymore, but this, it's reminding us of what that felt like. So we get kind of quote high on this novelty in NRE and what it does to our brains. We love it, so we keep going after it over and over. And if we go after it over and over, eventually, wah, wah, we get a little desensitized. Right. So the novelty eventually becomes normalized. Nothing can stay new forever. And things that even, you know, just a few years or for some of you newies, even a few months ago, we could never even conceptualize become old hat. I think about the first time you walked into a place and you saw the outfits that the women were wearing, Mr. Jones. And you're like, is this real life? And now you can walk in and you may forget to look at, you're like looking at the person's eyes instead of the outfit. That's right. Well, it's also like, you know, when you're on vacation, I have to remember where I am. Like, it's not okay to open the door with hardly anything on at a normal resort or on a cruise ship. Whereas as like at Desire or Hedo, like they've seen it all anyway. I don't open the door naked. but you know what I mean like it's okay where am I and how am I supposed to behave because I'm not as like shy anymore yes what gets normalized right the other way to think about this is sort of like over over saturation so a non-lifestyle example I went we got to visit New Zealand for three weeks and we traveled North Island South Island in a camper van saw so many beautiful things And on the way back, we flew to Maui to see my cousin who was living there. And it's the first time I've been to Hawaii and she's so excited to show me all the beauty of Maui. If you've ever been to Maui, that's a lot. And at some point, we got into a fight because she was like, I'm just showing you all this stuff and it doesn't even seem like you're excited. And I looked at her and I was like, oh my gosh, I think I'm like oversaturated with beauty. I was like, I bet if I came just to Maui, I would be driving you crazy with how excited I am. But I've said, oh, wow, how beautiful so many times in the last month that this beautiful Maui sunset may not have the same oomph, which let me stop and say first world problems for God's sake. But that you can get oversaturated with something so you get desensitized. I think we experienced that. We've been to the Caribbean so many times. And of course, we live in Florida now. and we've been to desire. And so those environments don't, aren't as amazing as they used to be. However, when we went to Rome a couple of years ago and we saw this history, all of a sudden we were, I was like, oh my God, I was awestruck. I'm standing there. Am I really seeing this? Because I'd never, it wasn't necessarily the beauty. It was the, it was the architecture and it was the size and it was the, how did they do this? And a little bit of it was overwhelming to the point where we don't really have much history over here compared to the rest of the world. So it was another example of something that really didn't have anything to do with natural beauty, but it was just something we had never experienced before. I love that word, awestruck. And so again, you were feeling awestruck. A lot of the awestruck was because of novelty. The Caribbean, at least where we go in the Caribbean, and we're not saturated with history or that sense of, you know, what a tiny blip of time we are. I mean, in some ways, when we're in the Caribbean time, it feels like there isn't time. It's just like it has been this way forever. But when you really look at Rome or London or some of these really old, old cities, yeah, it's a whole different kind of awe. That's a really good example. So, you know, we become desensitized to all sorts of things in the lifestyle or ethical non-monogamy. And so things that we thought were only the things of fantasy. Like the different scenes that we see. Again, like I said, the outfits. Like you said, Mrs. Jones, the level of nudity. The concepts that we sit and talk about at dinner. The sexual acts that we witness or we participate in. I mean, I would never have thought those things were real or possible. So when we get, when we become desensitized, our novelty-driven brain, it's, you know, it's greedy. It wants more novelty. So it says, well, this won't do it all. Give me more. Go out and find new things to excite me. So here we go back to that dopamine, that seeking. Hey, I want new things. So I'm going to push you to go find new exciting things for me. I need new pleasure. And I think you had mentioned at the outset how when Ryan expressed to you his new interest, how you viewed him through a different lens. So that's what we've experienced together as a couple. When we see each other either together or separately doing things that we've not seen before, even though you're with the same person, that has a novelty attraction to it as well. Such a good point. If I thought of that, I would have put that down in how it affects our relationship, but good work. Thank you, Mrs. Jones. That's so true. Being able to watch. How many times has Mrs. Jones flirted with you? But to get to watch her flirt from the outside. Or I remember the first time that I watched my ex-husband having sex with somebody and I was like, whoa, his body looks so different like that. That's so hot, right? It's just that seeing it from a new lens. That's such a good point. So then we listen to that novelty, greedy brain of ours and we go after new things to excite it. And then we find sometimes that we can't get the same, quote, high that we did. Oh, that was so fun at desire. Let's go back. You never have the same trip to desire as the first one. Right. And so because of that, then we feel, then we kind of subconsciously go after more intensity or variety to try to get that hit. Right. So we convince ourselves that the next event will be even better. And then we'll throw in, you know, some good old fashioned FOMO, fear of missing out. The FOMO comes from that primal threat response. that we're going to be left behind. You know, we won't be the tribe. Well, the tribe's doing things and we're missing out. So we convince ourselves that we need to go to as many events as possible to stay relevant to that tribe. So this can become a bit of an addictive cycle. The fear of missing out also puts me in the frame of mind where I could be watching my partner do something and she's really excited about it, but I don't get that same excitement. So I feel like what I'm, I'm missing out on what she's experiencing. So it's just a more complex dynamic when you're experiencing something like the lifestyle as a couple, but you're also going through individual. I mean, these chemicals and all of these things that we're talking about are going on inside of my head or in my body, but maybe not necessarily at the same time as it is with Mrs. Jones. So that just adds another layer of, of Yes. And you know, as you said that, Mr. James, I'd never really made that connection between fear of missing out and envy, right? So, you know, jealousy, we define as when we feel something that's a threat to our relationship, our connection, and envy is more like, wow, I wish I was that person right now, or I wish I had what they had. And so, you know, we're all people are always so scared of the word jealousy or envy or whatever, but we say FOMO, no problem. How is FOMO that different than envy. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So if we're going to, you know, here's the spoiler alert, I think we can all agree that there's potential for addiction here. So let's talk a little bit more about that. So there's some important new research from a Sanford psychologist, not psychiatrist, psychologist, Anna Lemke. And she studies the science of addiction. And she's coined the term the pleasure paradox. She explains this in so many and so many cool examples and anecdotes of patients that she's worked with, that she has the permission to share their stories. And she explains it from a neuroscience lens in this interview with Hidden Brain. That's another podcast. So maybe we can link that in the show notes. And that podcast is called The Paradox of Pleasure. So here are some things from her research that I think are interesting in this discussion. So the part of the brain that processes pleasure also processes pain. And so she said, you can almost imagine it like a seesaw, all right? And our brain always, our bodies and our brains are wired for homeostasis. We always want to come back to the middle. We want to come back to that. And so if we've got a seesaw that's going up and down, our bodies want it to come back to neutral, all right? When we feel pleasure, then the seesaw has to come down with pain to create homeostasis, right? That's real fun. I know. And she said that so far they haven't really been able to figure out why we have to have the cost of pain to have pleasure. But it probably has to do with that dopamine thing because it makes us the ultimate seekers to keep the seesaw balanced. If we stayed in pleasure all the time, we wouldn't move. I actually, I've listened to this podcast and then, oh, this is a little insight in what it's like. to be partnered with somebody like me. So I was listening to this. And Ryan and I were having this great sexual experience. And then we both came and stopped. And I was like, can you imagine if our parts didn't get so sensitive after we came? We would never stop having sex, right? That's true. You know that feeling where you're like, ah, ah, get off of it. Right. And so that little bit of pain, brings us back to life. Otherwise, we just keep having orgasm after orgasm after orgasm and we wouldn't be productive members of society. And you're starved to death. And yeah. Right. Or you learn your body so well, like Mrs. Jones says, give me six and a half minutes and then come back. I'll be ready. Exactly. Exactly. Let the pain pull the seesaw down and then I'm going to be seeking pleasure. So in six minutes, she's like, hey, Mr. Jones, because now the seesaw wants to be tilted back. Right. So for Ryan, like he's in this like post-coital, like trying to just relax. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this reminds me of this neuroscience podcast that I listen to. Right. There's the pain that brings down the orgasm for him. All right. So we have that. It keeps us, it keeps us seeking that balance in the seesaw. We remember the pleasure thanks to our emotional memory survival gal. Remember Amy G. Dala. She's like emotional memory. I remember what's good. remember what's bad so we remember pleasure and then our hippocampus is filing things away saying these are things we want to do again and then when we have that dopamine crash or that drop that we sometimes feel after exciting events or intense connections right or sometimes you know after an orgasm how it's like right that could be considered a bit of a crash that's that seesaw and because that drop doesn't feel so good we work to recreate pleasure continuing to seek more So what is the part of the brain? All right. So I've been on the seesaw. I felt the pleasure. And then I felt the pain. Now I have that experience behind me. So I know the cycle. And maybe I go through it again, maybe even three times. What is it that allows some people to recognize what they're feeling? and then put the brakes on because you're fighting a natural, you know, chemical, you know, that's going through your system. But ha ha, you're not going to trick me this time. So what is it that keeps some of us can be a little bit more strategic about it and like, well, I'm not going to go down this road. I've had this feeling before. I know what it is. I also know there's an opposite, you know, side of this. I don't really want to go through this at the minute. So I'm just going to discontinue where others, don't seem to, you know, have the same ability or they choose not to and they just keep going through the same cycle. What is the difference between the two? Well, let's see. If I could answer that in three sentences or less, I would be a rich woman because, I mean, that is the field of addiction. You know, why is in a family one brother, you know, able to be very moderate in drinking and then the other one cannot keep his shit together after the first drink and his life, you know, becomes all about stuff. seeking alcohol. And so, of course, there are, you know, in the field of substance abuse, there's so much research and so many theories, you know, is it genetic? Is it, you know, is there something chemical that's happening in the brain? What makes one person more sensitive to that seesaw than the other? I don't think we have a clear answer yet. Right? So, I do want to say, though, that when we go chasing that pleasure, that makes these internal drugs that they give us. It's not because we're bad. All right. So if we, even the person that is more sensitive to that, that wants it, it doesn't mean that they're bad. It makes sense, right? I mean, it feels good. And it doesn't, the other thing I think it's interesting, it's important to point out, if somebody finds, if you or your partner find yourself or find the other really driven toward that next hit, if you will, it isn't necessarily escaping from a a good life. I mean, most of us have great lives and relationships, which motivate us to just want to make them even better. So it's not escaping from a good life. It's more like we're escaping to excitement because it feels good. Right. Well, let me ask a little bit of a nuance to the same question. Let's not talk about alcoholism. Let's talk about our relationship and the lifestyle. I may never know if you're addicted to alcohol. I may never be able to put myself in position to feel what you're feeling. I just have to listen to it, understand it, accept it or not. However, in the lifestyle, let's just use jealousy. Let's just say one person has this mountaintop experience. They get connected to another person. Then they come down off the teeter-totter on the other side and there's pain. But then all of a sudden, that person feels jealous. with their partner. You have a common... I've heard people say, oh, I know what you're talking about now because now I'm jealous. I never really understood that before. So I wonder if that sort of experience helps people in non-monogamy or anybody better understand what somebody else is going through if they've actually felt it themselves. Absolutely, of course. And I think that in our, because we part of the lifestyle and ethical non-monogamy, especially the people that in our circles, it's so much about community. And I think that part of what fuels the community is having those, oh my gosh, me too moments. Or as I always say, we want to be, we want to feel seen, heard, understood, and loved anyway. And part of what the lifestyle creates is community where that is what we're talking about. about at dinner. That is what we're talking about in our ladies' chats and our men's chats. That's why we have these people come to retreats and they have these huge aha moments because they are feeling seen by other people or they'll hear someone else explain it and they're like, oh my gosh, I bet that's what my partner was going through. And then if we even bring it back to something like alcoholism, I certainly don't have any trouble moderating alcohol, but the other white drug, that sugar thing, watch out. Don't get between me and some brownies, man. And of course, it's not the same way where it would necessarily so negatively affect my life. But trying to keep myself out of the pantry for some little after-dinner treats, I can at least have some sort of relation and understanding to it, even if it's on a different scale. Right. Right. So the other thing to remember as far as not beating ourselves up for being affected by this cycle, is that this cycle puts us in a state that aligns a lot with Brene Brown's definition of play. Side note, I don't think it's an accident that we use the word play to describe sexy fun. All right. And think about that as I share her definition. So as I'm sharing this, I want you to think about, you know, like what we used to think of as play, you know, like hide and seek or, you know, crafting or whatever it is. And then also think about lifestyles. I'm going to ask your brain to think about two things. So the elements of play from Brene Brown are it's time spent without purpose for its own sake just because everyone likes it. It's where we can lose sense of time. It's something that we don't want to end. It leads to a loss of self-consciousness. And play helps alleviate stress and generate joy as we allow ourselves to get lost in an activity. time to me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think if you continue to use the word play and associate it with pickleball or golf, you know, when one of you leaves the home to go enjoy, to play that activity, the other one, I mean, you may wish, well, I wish you'd rather stay home with me, but there's not that threat of relationship. Right. Where I think once we get to a certain point, and Mrs. Jones and I talked about this several years ago, that emotion of love with the aspect of play because i think once you're in this for a while and you're better able to do that sex with somebody else and playing with somebody else is a very similar mindset you know whether you're together whether you're separate you know you're there's some distance between you and your partner when you're you know creating this play opportunity well if you can let go of that feeling to be on defense mode you know then it becomes fun Yeah. Right. And also keep in mind, you couldn't get to the headspace of play, as Brené Brown is discussing this, without safety. You know, if you don't feel safe, you are not going to lose sense of time. You are absolutely going to be self-conscious. You need to be if you feel unsafe. You know, nothing feels like it. I mean, everything feels super high stakes. It is not alleviating stress or generating joy. So without safety, play is not possible. And so I think that the people that can go into sexual play as we're talking about it and have a really good time and lose that sense and it becomes something that you could even be searching for in that dopamine cycle. Safety has to be there first. So if you feel a threat to the relationship, it won't feel like play. Yeah. And just like we say, our community has been labeled kind of a safe space by our members. So it's not physical play, but it's vulnerability and, you know, trust and honesty and sharing also is a safe space. And, you know, typically one may lead to the other. So we use that word safety a lot. Absolutely. And of course, there are different levels of safety. I mean, we have like physical safety, psychological safety, and also I think it's on a spectrum, like psychological safety from an abusive partner versus like Do I feel psychologically safe to explore this with you? I mean, there's just a whole range there. So to wrap up Dr. Lemke's research, it definitely shows that we can start to have addict-like behavior searching for the brain cocktail that creates pleasure after the painful dopamine crash. That would be the wrap-up of her stuff. So, and if you don't have anything else there, we can move into how this shows up in lifestyle, in E&M, and our relationships. Well, I think, like, I'm just thinking about, like, myself, and I tend to be risk-averse. So I think my highs and lows, I have highs and lows, but I think they're somewhat, like, my roller coaster isn't as, like, high or steep as other people's. So I just wonder, like, is there something, like, hardwired into my brain so that my need for safety kind of reduces the amount of dopamine that's released in my brain? Or are there different levels of dopamine highs for different people? That's a fantastic question that is beyond my scope of knowledge. But I would think that a strong part of your personality being risk-averse would keep how high and how low you would feel comfortable at the roller coaster going. That's going to be what limits it, if you will, which isn't a bad thing, right? I think it could. And I think the other things that could contribute to that would be, you know, childhood history, childhood trauma. Like if, you know, what other things were you exposed to that made this feel safe or not? Right. I think, you know, sometimes I think that people who, you know, get into this and they've never had a serious breakup, never really had that crash of a life breaking up. might be less risk averse because they don't know how awful that felt, right? Like how risk averse I am now in my relationship with Ryan going through this versus how I showed up with Ray, so different. And some of that was naivete. I didn't know, right? Yeah. I also think you can be desensitized to really understanding how, Mrs. Jones, how much higher your roller coaster is going now than it was in the past. So true, right? So with safety, and with the risks being, you know, you have looked at the risks, you've done a lot of risk assessment and you've gone through these things and you're like, okay, we went on the roller coaster and we're all still here. We're all safe. He still loves me. I still love him. Okay, we can go to a little bit, a little bit bigger roller coaster. Yeah, a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Okay, so let's, we're tiptoeing around it. Let's go ahead and dive into how this shows up in lifestyle and ethical non-monogamy and our relationships. So, For me, the way that I, after I looked at Dr. Lemsky's work and have been chewing on this, what comes to my mind is that the pleasure created by the lifestyle or ethical non-monogamy is really entrancing. I mean, it's so much fun and we seek it more and more because it's so exciting and so much fun. And so we can become dependent on it to manage our mood. It can become a psychological crutch. It can change the way we feel in a way that that we want that more. So when we finally feel seen, when we finally can have those kinds of conversations over dinner, when we don't have to play nice or pretend like we don't have a sexual desire or that we're not attracted to other people, there's this freedom that is just boom, it's this big rush, right? And as far as the like dependent on it to manage mood or a psychological crutch, I mean, I definitely remember times early on where I would be in just kind of a sour mood. And I'd like catch myself texting sexy friends, like putting bids out. Like, can I get a little hit? Can I get a little dopamine here? I'm not having a good Monday, right? Need a little, right? And again, there's nothing wrong with that. It makes sense. I think it's over time it can become problematic. And so the ways I've seen it become problematic in clients is sometimes we find ourselves wanting to spend all of our available time and lots of resources doing these activities that have created pleasure. We're rushing through the rest of our life so we can get back to feeding our lifestyle cycle. And then the cycles get shorter and shorter. The anticipation and pleasure are less and less each time around. And then if we agree that that's sort of E&M addictive or lifestyle addictive behavior quotes, it can be extra tricky because of a few things. One is we often are doing it secretly, which adds to the excitement. It's titillating because Nobody Knows. It's like the secret tattoo that I have that nobody else gets to see. And they think I'm just this normal person walking through the grocery store. You have no idea what I'm listening to in my ears right now. It's that excitement, right? We can also avoid seeing it as addictive because we start to surround ourselves by other happy, healthy people that are doing it too. So it gets normalized, right? We can easily state, all of us could so easily state so many positive benefits that it's brought to ourselves and our growth. in our relationships. So we're like, well, if it's that good, it certainly couldn't be bad. We can do that to justify. And then we can also justify it by the, well, at least comparisons. Well, at least I'm not spending all this money on gambling or, you know, snorting it all up my nose or whatever. I'm not a drug addict. We can do that kind of like, I'm doing it in comparison. Yeah. In comparison, I look great. So I think those are the things that really stick out to me. Anything that sticks out for you all as you think about this specifically? to lifestyle? No, I think you hit the nail on the head. If you're not maintaining lifelong friendships anymore and you're neglecting people that are really important to you. Yeah, and it's also not just your relationship. It's your job, your career, your kids, your other activities. If we can lose sight of the fact that it's only going to be my relationship that I'm taking away from. There's all other parts. And I think with, you know, young, especially younger couples who are experiencing this, we talked to a couple recently and they said, we just looked at each other and we said, we got to put on the brakes because we're away every weekend and we're, you know, our kids have stuff going on and, you know, you've got to be able to keep that balance in your life that we've talked about so much. Yeah, it's hard. I remember when we've, when, when Ray and I first got into this, I guess we had, it had been about five years that we'd been into it. into this when COVID hit and we were in lockdown. And all of a sudden, we're walking around our house and our yard and we're like, we haven't done shit to this place in five years. And so we laughed about COVID was really great because it forced us to work on the yard and do some landscaping and change the roof and do these things that we're like, I mean, we could work in the yard this weekend or we could go to this party. So COVID was a good break for us in that way. At least our house appreciated it. And so then the other thing I want to mention, actually, Kelsey brought this to me, I had her read my, my outline, and she's, she's so brilliant. She always brings something wonderful. And she was like, I think we also need to talk about how it affects our attachment relationships. And so this is definitely something we see a lot where one partner might be and we've been alluding to this, one partner might be more affected by that pleasure, pain, dopamine, seesaw, and more subject to addictive traits based on their brain's chemistry, their sensitivity, their makeup, while the other is naturally more moderated or measured, or as you said, Mr. Jones, risk averse. Yeah. Right. And so when that happens, which is often the case, I mean, usually you've got like, you know, the risk manager and the like, let's go do all the risky things that usually I think a lot of times those those people find each other because they balance each other, you know, like the risk, the risk adverse would never do anything at all scary to push themselves. And then the other person needs a little grounding every now and again. So that's pretty normal. But it can set up this push-pull between partners when now it's about lifestyle. So if one partner is kind of pushing, especially because this is, if you're doing this as a couple, then it really does become this thing where it's like if the one that is really pushing for the next exciting thing, they aren't necessarily able to go do that themselves. So they're kind of dragging their risk-adverse person along like, hey, I'm ready for another hit. You, come on, come on. I need you to come with me. I need my wingman. I need my wingwoman. And then the other person is struggling with that pressure that they feel to be the brakes on such a powerful train that they feel like is driving their partner. And I think the ability to understand each other is overlooked a little bit. The person going through the high probably has a more difficult time trying to put themselves in the shoes of the other person because of the flood of chemicals. He loves me. Why wouldn't he want me to experience this pleasure? We said it was okay. But also, the sting of jealousy is flooding my head with what could be going on over there. So both sides are being flooded with some emotion and some chemical. So I see that we're getting to the part of the podcast where you're going to tell everybody what to do about this. So maybe that would be a good place to start. It's so easy. Well, like you say, Mrs. Jones, like the person that has the high, it could be, why don't you want me to have a good time? Why don't you want my pleasure? But also, let's go back to how easy it is to justify. Like, but I'm here every night or, you know, like, but I love you and let me show you all the ways that I love you. And so they may be doing a lot of even kind of subconscious justifying in order to keep chasing that pleasure. Right. And then, as you pointed out, Mr. Jones, the person that's struggling with it or maybe feeling jealous, now their system is flooded with danger. This is new and it's threatening. So the person that's feeling the high is like, this is new and we found a mango tree. And the other one's like, this is new and I see a predator around the corner, right? Because all of this is new and it's really scaring them, right? And so the other thing that gets tricky is when these, when addictive tendencies show up with, you know, like alcohol or something like a process addiction like gambling or even something like phone use or how addicted we get to our phones. We're slower to go to what's wrong with me. Why am I not enough? Right. Now, people definitely get there. That's why Al-Anon exists. I mean, codependency actually started as a concept because of the people that would personalize their addict's behavior and think there was something wrong with them. Right. But I think that with those, we're a little slower to go to that. But when it's, you know, if my partner's out with a beautiful woman and he's all high on that, it's really easy to get into compare and despair. What's wrong with me? Why am I not enough for you? Why is this all you think about? Why is this? This is what we do all the time. So I think we go to that faster with, you know, with the, quote, addiction of the lifestyle than we do with some of those others. So I guess in conclusion, to answer the question of the podcast title, that maybe it isn't an addiction to lifestyle or E&M or events exactly, but it's more an addiction to that cycle created by the internal brain chemical cocktail that push our pleasure, pain, seesaw up and down over and over. And lifestyle or events or whatever NRE is the quote drug of choice that gets that seesaw going. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, when we told some close, friends of ours that we were in the lifestyle they um you know they listened and you know didn't really understand why we were doing it but they respected it and and um and that was kind of the end of it it didn't it didn't end our relationship with them but what they did as a couple is they went out and you know did something like really risky you know it had nothing to do with sex but they they decided to go out and it's almost so now i'm thinking oh my gosh they went out and got a dopamine high by doing this you know it was risky and new and exciting and they did it together as a couple and um so i i think that that high is so tempting it's just it's dangling out there and i think everybody wants to grab it in some fashion and i think that doing that together i mean esther perel that's a that's a cornerstone of her work is that that couples who who do risky things together and they feel that vulnerability and the fear of what could happen and they got through it together it is an amazing draw of attraction and it pulls them to each other and she even talks about seeing your partner a different way or and you know when she's talking about that i think any of us lifestyle people are thinking that she's like oh she's totally non-monogamous that's got to be what she's talking about but i mean that could be that could be with with skydiving that could be with you know like summit high adventure sport i mean for some people it could be a sport period like think about couples that do their first couch to 5k together. And then they have NRE with running together. They do their first marathon together. They work and work and work. And then they have the excitement of the finish line together. It's all that same cycle. Yeah. Yeah. Right? It's so funny because the couple I was talking about, it was skydiving. That's what they did. And when they told me that, I'm like, y'all are nuts. Y'all are crazy. You think we're crazy. I know. Exactly. With other people, it's easy. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So then to wrap up, let's talk about if this is, I think we're all agreeing that this is certainly possible. So what do we do about it? I mean, obviously my answer isn't going to be like, well, you know, let's all close up shop. This is clearly a bad activity. We don't want to tell anybody to do it. That's not the answer. I think just knowing about this cycle and this teeter-totter is so eye-opening, not just for lifestyle, but for things that we might get addicted to in general. So, I mean, even think about Netflix users. this or our streaming services, where they start the next episode before we have a chance to even like take a breath and decide if we want to watch another one. And then we get sucked into the first scene. Bastards. And what word did we start? What word do we use? We're binging. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Okay. All right. So what to do about it? So the first is to be honest about your personal tendencies toward addiction and realize if you or your partner may be more sensitive to that pleasure paradox and those brain can you probably know which one of you is more likely to to get that way and i think it's just just like we say with jealousy don't assume it won't happen assume that it will happen and even kind of look at who is it more likely to hit and how so then we're we've normalized it a little bit and we're ready for it the other thing is don't personalize it if your partner is more sensitive to one of those neural pathways and patterns so instead of going what's wrong with me why am i not enough realize that their brain is being hijacked by a system that is so much older than you or your relationship or any of us, right? I always, but then with that, I always, as I always advise, don't diagnose your partner. So not like, oh, well, clearly your seesaw's all fucked up. No, we don't want to do that. All right. So instead, we want to have curious, compassionate conversations meant to deepen your connection through all the AFOLs that are available on this journey, right? So I have to ask you a question here, Catherine. Yes. How difficult is it for you to not diagnose your partner? I mean, that's your job. I'm totally doing it in my head. Okay. Like where I'm like, oh, it looks like he's, you know, he's activated right now. Or, you know, I could tell that, you know, today he had a really hard paper that he was doing. And we tried to talk about something pretty neutral and it got heated fast. And I was able to be like, this is about that. that ethics quiz. This isn't really about me. I mean, that would kind of be diagnosing. I'm deciding what's going on in his head, but I don't say it out loud. Like, you're just being a jerk because you took that ethics. If I did that, it's just going to be making that happen more. I think the point that you're raising, though, is that it may be okay if you're able to diagnose, but in that diagnosis, you should learn how you should respond if that happens to be correct. Well, instead of diagnosing Mr. Jones, I'll say, do you remember that one time when Catherine said, or do you remember that one time when Kelsey said? Yeah, that was a big mistake. Or remember when I was taking notes when Jason was talking about this? I mean, I've quoted all of you. Yeah, but I do the same thing. Yeah. Well, we were actually, Kelsey and I were talking about that at the couples retreat. She and Miche and I were up at the front and we're like, yeah, you know, we've found that we've heard that usually if our name comes up at your house, it's usually not a That's a good thing. It doesn't always go so well. Like, don't weaponize us in what we talk about. You are definitely my ammunition. Yeah, exactly. You just weaponized me. So, yes, I mean, we're always doing that. But if we use that diagnosis, we keep it in and we're using that diagnosis, as you pointed out, Mr. Jones, to help us know how better to respond, how we respond, not how they should respond or what they should do or what they are doing wrong. That's what I mean by don't diagnose. Don't use what you think is happening with them to tell them what's wrong with them or what they should do right well and i think this is where experience comes into play too because you can see these patterns repeating right so then you know what's going on even though you can't stop it because it's human tendency you know at least you have this experience of oh okay we just we just fell into that trap again like we just signed up for another hotel takeover even though we don't have the money or the time to do it you know here we go again and then to be curious about it while we did that when we both know we don't have the time or money what's going on what are we what are we needing to do to bring what is another way we could bring homeostasis would be the question like getting curious like using this as like oh this is showing us something now what are we going to do about it yeah so the other thing i always remind people especially when i get the chance to be to work with people that are either thinking about getting into this or a brand new I always probably sound like this wise elder. I'm like, remember eventually that you will run out of highs to chase in this journey. So spread out the fun. Like stay quote high on whatever has you lit up right now for as long as you can without escalating or adding or layering the experience. Yeah. The trip we just got back from was what I said was two and a half weeks. The first part of it was in a lifestyle setting. The second part of it was in It was just the two of us for a couple of days. Then it was a lifestyle setting again. Then it was a whole week of just the two of us. And then it was family oriented at the end. Wow. So when we got home, of course, we were beat. But it was not all, you know, it wasn't all family. It wasn't all just the two of us. It wasn't all lifestyle. It was a good mix of everything. We were able to kind of unpack as we went through. Yeah. And it was good. It probably made the second lifestyle experience more fun because you'd had, again, a little bit of that teeter-totter about the balance too. So then you were able for it probably felt more exciting. Yeah. And we were able to kind of emotionally reconnect and catch our breath, so to speak, before we were like, okay, we're going to dive in again. It's so important. And so that's one of the other things in my tips and tools here is remember to take breaks so that you remember what homeostasis feels like. and reframe homeostasis as peace and calm not boring oh that's brilliant you know so if you've gotten used to those big up and downs like you may have a monday night where you're like i'm bored and instead be like i am peaceful i don't have these little gremlins like running up and down my seesaw like getting me you know pleasure pain pleasure pain i'm just chilling yeah and remember what that feels like yeah um and in doing And so, when we do that, or when we're trying to find feel, when we're trying to feel like homeostasis is peace instead of boring, we have to consciously and intentionally find joy in quote, normal life, like seeking pleasure in simple ways, things that used to bring you pleasure, something that's a little more normal and moderated. Yeah, right. And then, you know, we've talked about this, we talked about this way back in our jealousy episode at the beginning, when, whenever we have any kinds of stress hormones, or hormones rushing through our body that are telling us to do things, we don't want to sit and marinate in them. So the more you keep your body active, you're flushing out those stress hormones and those delicious high hormones to get you kind of back to normal. So keep your body moving. And then if you're struggling with this inside, you realize maybe you have that sensitivity and you're having trouble keeping it moderated. If that push and pull is causing more friction in your relationship than you feel like it should be, get help. Get outside perspective. Talk to other lifestyle couples. talk to talk to people who aren't in the lifestyle that can help remind you what you were like before and then of course come see us or somebody else go see your therapist and be honest about this i always say you know in aa like the first step is admitting you have a problem that's can be uncomfortable but do it yeah i think the analogy that comes to mind as we were talking about skydiving and as we were talking about don't diagnose your partner If we're both skydiving, she's got her parachute and I got my parachute. She's got her ripcord and I've got my ripcord. I have to trust that she's going to pull the cord before she hits the ground. You've told me that more than once. I can't reach over and pull her cord. Well, I can, but if I do, there's hell to pay for that. I think it's the same thing in a lifestyle journey when there's is an imbalance. Sometimes if your primary partner tries to diagnose and tell you or rip your cord, it causes some more dissension. But if you have a friend, a neutral third party, like Expansive Connection, as you guys are talking about, or a community of people where you can share something and somebody else besides your partner can say, you know what, you might want to pull the cord. And, you know, so being able to put yourself in an environment or multiple environments where you have those kinds of inputs really takes the pressure off of each of you as individuals. Absolutely. And, you know, I've been able to see that in our men's and women's peer groups that we've talked about. One of the ways that we support those peer facilitated groups is there's a chat function and I'm on it for the men and Kelsey is on it for the women. And we're not engaging. We're not doing it to like snoop or be creepy. It's more just to see if anything is, you know, getting out of the bounds or if it's getting out of the scope of what is appropriate for that without a trained professional. And it's been so amazing to watch the men do that for each other. You know, like one will get in there and it's almost like the other ones are, you know, kind of talking them off a little edge or be like, you know, I kind of see your wife's point of view here, but, you know, I really think you need to stick up for yourself a little more there. And so having that, those trusted people, that have your best interest in mind. Like you say, they don't have a dog in the fight. I mean, priceless to be able to get that. Well, okay, so I think we've pretty much concluded that it can feel like an addiction, but it's the cycle that we need to recognize and all of the ways that you talked about recognizing that and dealing with that so that you both get back on the same page. Yeah, absolutely. Well, so what's up before we let you go? I know you've been busy. What do you have coming up with Expansive Connection? Well, like I said, I'm definitely high on all the excitement from the retreat that we had in Destin, but also from that powwow that we had. We just, you know, we sit there and we bounce ideas and we are always just bursting after that. So we really encourage people, if you're not already on our mailing list, to sign up for that. We send usually one a week, And it's just kind of either resources that we're listening to or new offerings we have or new trips we have coming up or highlighting a podcast or something like that. And so there's going to be a lot coming on that because we sat around and came up with great ideas. So if you're not, just go to expansiveconnection.com. If you scroll all the way down at the bottom, you can join our mailing list, of course, unsubscribe at any time, all that sort of stuff. But to tell you a few things that are already on the books and available, I'm going to be teaching a healthy hall passes workshop on Thursday, March 19. at 7.30 Eastern. This will be a 90-minute discussion. So this is geared for people that are thinking about playing or dating separately, people that have and it didn't go so well, but they maybe want to look at what went wrong and how they could do it better. And then I also have a women's pleasure retreat coming up in the Smoky Mountains of Tennessee at the end of March, and that's with Sapio Tours. We still have a few spots left in our bunk room, and it's always just such an empowering, and wonderful, juicy weekend of girl time and exploration and learning. I'm also going to be the resident therapist at Naughty Jim's Wild Love Theory Couples Retreat. And this is a deep dive into the ways that our insecurities, maybe the way that we let our insecurities hold our partners back and how we can see that better and learn how to work on ourselves so that we can feel as open and free with each other to do the things that we want to do. as possible. That's going to be in April. And then we have a waiting list started for our upcoming couples retreats. Kelsia and Cheryl and I will be sitting down to put the dates on those and get all those settled. And so if we're putting a waiting list together so that if you're interested in couples retreats, you can get on that and you'll be the first ones to know when we get our dates ready. And we have a feeling these are going to be selling out faster and faster as the word of mouth spreads because everybody just walks away and see me. so full of life and excitement so those are the things we have cooking hopefully you talked about how you're going to scale up in the future with your when you had your meeting because it's really exciting to see so much activity with expansive connection and i also want to reiterate live and on the air that you know we've mentioned you've mentioned sapio you've mentioned devious dragonfly esther perel bernet brown naughty jim libertine you know we we want We want to be a resource. We want to create a collaborative environment. Yes, we have our community, but we want people to know all the resources that are out there. There's not a one-size-fits-all. So we're happy to collaborate with you and all of these other groups that we feel like are healthy ways that people can navigate this lifestyle. So appreciate you being a part of that. So true. And I mean, you and I talked about this a little bit, how ironic, it can be that we're all all of us in this industry have most of us stumbled into this being professional because we loved it as as people so much and then we ended up creating something professional from it and so in our personal lives that were so great we've become non-monogamous and then sometimes we forget to challenge those monogamous scarcity ideas in our businesses and every once in a while run into somebody in this industry that feels like competitive or scarce with a scarcity mindset and i'm like i'm not everybody's cup of tea if there's another therapist or coach by all means like go absolutely or you know there are people that your community is going to be the perfect fit for them or for some people naughty gyms where are or maybe they're like the people that have six different streaming channels because they like ted lasso on apple and they like you know whatever on peacock and so maybe you know you get a little something different from each one because of course we all have our own flavor and and i'm just i'm really thankful that i've been able to partner with other with you guys and Naughty Jen and Sapio and Libertine and people that aren't trying to be scarce or competitive about it and that we can all come together to serve this community because we get it. We all want to be out there having fun and enjoying our relationships as much as possible. So expansiveconnection.com slash ENM. Is that correct? Yes. That's the spicy side. We have just expansiveconnection.com for the couple of coaches that we have that are not out. They can have a website. to be on that doesn't have all the spicy stuff. But if you go to the E&M side, you get all the spicy stuff and you can navigate over to the other side as well. So that's definitely the way to go. And you can find a link to Expansive Connection on the wegotathing.com website. And as I mentioned before, if you want to try our community, send me an email or use our website in the contact us section and send me a message and let me know. I'm happy to give you a promo code to give our community a try. And then everything that we've talked about, we will have in the show notes to this podcast. So if you weren't able to write it down, just check the show notes and we'll have links and information for you there with everything that Catherine has been speaking about. So, well, I'm glad you're feeling better. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for waiting for me. It was super fun. My brain is working way better than it was that day we were supposed to record. So thank you for being patient with me. And we're looking forward to, as time moves forward, Letting people know everything that's coming up with Expansive Connection. And, you know, we've got a whole list of podcast topics that you all sent us for the next calendar year. So we're happy that our collaboration will continue. So thank you, Catherine. And thank you to your team for being such a... That's one thing about the lifestyle. You never run out of topics. Shit to talk about. So true. So true. And you guys get to be with Miche soon. So she was cooking up some interesting ideas to record with you all for our March Madness. is double episode release. Yes, that's right. Excellent. Okay. Well, thanks a lot, Catherine. Take care. Bye. Hey, this is Jessica. If this episode stirred something in you, curiosity, comfort, or that quiet, I've been looking for this feeling, don't stop here. Go listen to episode 131, Finding Your Tribe and the We Got a Thing community. It's where the conversations go deeper, the connections get real, and you discover that this journey was never meant to be taken alone. Because if you're listening, Chances are, you've got a thing. A craving for more honesty, more freedom, and a space where you feel understood without having to justify who you are. And We've Got a Thing, a thriving community built exactly for like-minded couples and individuals ready to explore, grow, and connect with support that's as deep as the desire that brought you here. Head to WeGotAThing.com and come inside, because a thing you've been craving is not just a fantasy, it's a real community. We Got A Thing on Instagram and X. That's W-E-G-O-T-T-A-T-H-I-N-G for a glimpse into the energy, inspiration, and intention behind everything we do. Thank you,