Episode 152: Managing Anxiety in the Lifestyle

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey, you teenagers out there. If you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello, everyone. I'm Mr. Jones. And I'm Mrs. Jones. And I'm Misha. And we want to welcome you to episode 152 of the We Gotta Thing podcast. So we're back with expansive connections. Yeah, I'm I'm a little bit You know, the ups and downs of the lifestyle, I guess we're going to have to admit out loud that there are downs to the lifestyle. Maybe for you, but for me, it's all butterflies and sunshine and rainbows. Yeah. Yeah. So welcome back, Miche. It's good to see you again. And we are going to be talking about, you know, these words, I mean, anxiety comes up a lot. You know, I don't know. I'm glad that you want to talk about depression and what this feels like to people but you know I would say almost anybody who's going to walk into this space or run into this space ever you want to describe it is going to be experiencing you know some sort of those feelings so just wanted to say welcome back and we're interested to get started with this conversation. Oh thank you I'm excited to be here again I'm always excited when it's my turn to hang out with you guys for a little bit. So, yeah, I think this one was, this kind of conversation was kind of floated around in our group for a little bit. And I don't want to make it like super heavy, but I did want to acknowledge like some spaces where I know I've felt some anxiety before. I'm a little bit of a nervous bug at times. And then also spaces where it could kind of feel like depression, even if it's not actually depression in the lifestyle, because we have such huge highs, like this beautiful, sexy chemical suit. that's in our brain is amazing and it wears off and so what happens when your brain like is like i'm all out of juice like there's another side to that so we have incredibly large highs which are amazing and then there's also like this low space that happens as well because your brain's just trying to get back to equilibrium and so i just kind of wanted to normalize that yeah and this typically happens uh there's all kinds of things that go on into the lifestyle it's talking to each other It's your own relationship It's dating other people It's events So maybe we could talk about You know, putting this into context With some common challenges That people might have experienced Yeah, so I have a couple So I have a post-event drop And then the other one is Quad or Morrison breakups Those kind of come across my virtual desk Every now and then And then we also have like shifts and relationship structures. That's more so things we kind of experience towards the beginning of our journeys and then somewhere down the line as well. But a lot of times we feel that pretty heavy in the beginning. And then just general social anxiety. Like I'm always like, I don't want to do it. I don't want to get on the plane. And then I get there and I'm like, you know, the lead up to it is like, it can be a little anxiety provoking. So yeah. So the post event drop, I thought I'd start there. So this is kind of what happens when we get back from these sexy events like a house party or hotel takeover or retreat and are just full of these like sexy hormones and that fun nervous energy and you return home and there's like this chemical crash and doesn't happen for everybody but there are a lot of people who do feel that that kind of crash and if you're not somebody who feels it emotionally think of all of the other lifestyle people that you've heard be like I have the lifestyle So you might not get it emotionally, but sometimes your body gets exhausted. And so that's another way to experience it as well. It's just like your body is like immune system overstimulation. Yeah, overstimulation, but also just being in an environment where you can feel like you can express yourself freely, and you're not going to be judged. You know, so sometimes I think we come home, that post event emotional drop could be from seeing our friends. It could be just the exhilaration of being at an event with your partner. But it also could be the smack in the face of reality when you come back and the kids are waiting and the job is waiting and the grass needs to be mowed and everything else that comes along with real life. Yes. Yes. Like, I don't want to talk to people about how the weather is. I want to talk about, like, deep life stuff and, like, the best orgasm of my life. That's what I want to talk about. But we got to talk about bills and taking out trash. So. Okay. So another one is quad or more. Some breakups. So sometimes we just really hit it off with people that vibe with us really well, have similar goals or similar interests or that are just really hot. That's also a good vibe. So we might have multiple bonds that end around the same time. And so this is a space where you can begin to let people into your life a little more than maybe like a friends with benefits placement is. There can also be more of like a real breakup feeling to this. And that feels different than are couple swapping engagement due to time constraints or to refocus on their relationship. Like this feels a little more involved than that. Yeah. And so attachment, you're specifically talking about that more some or that quad, but I know that even sometimes in our community, people talk about going from pants off friends to pants on friends. So even if you're shifting from maybe playing to not playing that, that can be, that can bring its own decision with different timing, you know, because then you've got the anxiety of now I've displeased my partner and we're not on the same page. So I'm sure that just can really escalate your anxiety. Yeah. And then I think it kind of loops from the anxiety space into like maybe like a more depressive space. And so sometimes that can look like not being able to get out of bed in the morning or maybe not with the same gusto that you had before you came to that decision. Or like a lot of people have feelings of stuckness for a while around this. or inability to move forward, especially if you and your partner are not on the same space around that loss. I've gotten stuck where I start doubting myself. Like, why in the world did I make this decision to begin with? And even though, like you said, like the logical part of my brain knows why, you just get caught up in, you know, maybe I'm overreacting, maybe it wasn't that big of a deal. And then it is, like for me, it's a loop and it starts to consume you. I think with the loop and being consumed by it I think that is like I like to tell people that this is your brain working against you and it will only last for a certain amount of time but it is your brain trying to protect you it doesn't work but like I don't I don't know if I've told the story but I love romance novels and every now and then I want to read the really trashy ones on Amazon where you kind of can correct the grammar but it's like Like some of them have like these stories where like these women are like, you know, abducted from Earth. I'm a sci-fi geek. And so they'll be abducted from Earth and be put on another planet and then they have to get like this bug that gets inserted in like their ear or their skin so they can have like an universal translator. But what it also does is it creates like an attachment sometimes to their one person. And when they are apart from that one person for a really long time, in time, it actually causes them physical pain. And so I like to think of this space as like this little worm that's entered my brain to cause me physical and mental pain, but eventually it will die off. And I just have to remind myself, like, it's not me. It's my brain. I'm going to distance from this for a little bit and it will eventually just get a little less loud, but it will take some time. Yeah. And I think it would be good for your partner to be able to know. Like if we only had this flashing light on our forehead that says, I'm talking to my brain right now. This is not directed towards you. I'm in the middle of arguing with myself. But the words are coming out of my mouth. And you may misunderstand that there's something that you should do about this when really it's me. Yeah. I'm pretty sure you want that light on my forehead, don't you? It was a hypothetical. Yeah. Y'all can't see this, but he is not making eye contact with me right now. That's awesome. Okay. So I think the partner piece is really important because, you know, grieving the loss of other partners in front of your partner, either with them or like at different paces than them, can feel really heavy and be challenging. I want to also say that this can be an amazing opportunity to show up in love and connection and support of each other. in a way that you would not have gotten outside of E&M. And so I've heard so many people say, like, the way my partner supported me when I was, like, crying about this, and I wanted to not be crying about it, but they came again and, like, supported me. Like, I see them with so much love and affection and care now. Or, like, the ability to say, like, I want my partner to feel my love even through this hard thing, so I'm going to show up. And so, you know, I think sometimes we dread that place, but I think it's also an amazing opportunity to love your partner in a way that you wouldn't get to any other way. Also, your partner does not have an obligation to fix or carry the sadness with or for you if your paces and the sadness or grief are different. So support you? Yes. Carry it for you? No. And then because our paces are different, especially with just this attachment rupture, I'd like to remind people to release the grief and the loss of that attachment. and spurts, right? Like you still have to like show up to work and do the groceries and connect with your partner. Um, and so like take 10 minutes every now and then to just feel your feelings and then take a deep breath and then pack it up and go on with your day because you can't let it consume you. And it's not fair to you. It's also not fair to the people around you, but you are, you do need and you do deserve to feel it, feel your feelings. Right. And that's gotta be difficult because I think, I don't know, you're, you're the expert. But rarely, I think, would you see a relationship dissolve immediately. Like, especially if there's four people involved. So, even as you're trying to release something, the other person or the other couple may still be clinging on, may still be communicating. And then, you know, so you're evolving or devolving, I guess, what it is. And it probably is a little bit more difficult to get through it if it really hasn't completely resolved. So this is what we do when we start navigating novelty. And there's like the loss or death of specialness and then the blossoming of uniqueness. But a lot of people feel a lot of grief and sadness in that space, even if they're like, I'm trudging forward with my sadness backpack on. And so I just wanted to acknowledge that there is a space where the shift in your relationship structure does cause some sadness and encourage you to lean into it, but recognize that, you know, There's no other person like you. So it doesn't mean that there's something necessarily different and just a shift in focus. And then the last one was social anxiety. I feel this one all the time and Catherine laughs at me. She's like, get out there. So only like what a lot of people go, what if only one partner is desired, right? Like, So it's the fear of only one person and the couplet being desired, or that they are only into me because of my partner. That one comes up a lot. Or the fear that one will, you're just not going to vibe with anybody, right? What if I only vibe with one person, but then that person wants to play with everybody, and then I'm kind of like stuck? Or the fear that your partner is the extrovert, and you might end up looking like the wallflower in these situations. And so that fear that may not be founded, but is a fear can have people feeling really anxious in these social spaces. And I'm always like, if you feel anxious, just say it. You're going to find somebody else who feels exactly the same way and then you can both take a deep breath. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you wonder, why did I even get into this to begin with? Because at first, in my mind, at least, it was fantasy, it was sexy, it was naughty, it was something that, you know, we're exploring together. and then all of a sudden, well, not all of a sudden, but over a period of time, you know, and maybe some people don't even realize how many attachments they've made or how many friendships they've made until all of a sudden one starts to deteriorate and then you start to feel a little anxiety and maybe rejected. Well, and, you know, like you said, you know, why did I even get into this? Because there's somebody else in the room that has the same amount of social anxiety you do and they're just waiting to meet you. that you guys can hide in the corner together and actually have a really good time. Not that I've ever done that. No, no, we don't know anything about that. No. All those other people. Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah. There's someone else who feels exactly the same way you do. And also, I like to invite people to challenge those thoughts that come up, right? Okay, sure, I'm not a 50-person crowd pleaser. I do really well in small circles. You get me with four or six people, I can rock the whole crowd, right? But maybe not, like, 30 to 40 people. And so, maybe challenge that with things you know about yourself to be true. I'm a really funny person, or I can make really cute, weird jokes, or I know a shit ton about Star Wars. Find the person who knows about Star Wars. I went to Hedo, did not think that that existed, and this guy knew his Star Wars stuff, and I was like, look at that. Look at that, everybody. There's someone for everyone. That's right. You never know. Then I also wanted to just give like a little mental health awareness I was actually talking to my partner about kind of this podcast recording I was doing and he's doing his PhD like he's finishing it he'll be done very very soon and I was like listen to these qualifiers right and so I'm going to the qualifiers and he's like oh yeah that's me oh yeah oh yeah yeah no no no that's me so I wanted to go through the qualifiers just in case anybody's at this point right now where they're kind of stuck in what they feel like might be or anxiety, so you know when to reach out and get help. There's coaches, there's actual therapists that can help you if you actually meet these qualifiers. And also, I wanted to say them, so if you're in this but these don't meet you, that you're not sitting there stressed out because you think you're in full depression mode. It's not you, and it's okay. It's just your brain going, I don't have any more sexy chemicals for you. Give me a minute while I make some more. Alright, so anxiety has the following specifiers. You have to have these symptoms. for six months or more. And they can't be brought on by other medical conditions or drugs. So if you were drinking the whole time, this is not for you, okay? So you have to have three or more of these for over six months. Restlessness or feeling keyed up or on edge, being easily fatigued, difficulty concentrating or your mind going blank, irritability, muscle tension, sleep disturbance. If you don't have any of those, it's not you. If you have some of those, you might want to seek some extra help. Support is beautiful. So in real life, this might look like trouble sleeping, trembling, feeling twitchy, nervousness, or being easily startled, sweating, nausea, everything's running through me, diarrhea kind of situation. If that's you, because like our bodies respond to our emotions, ask for extra support. And then for depressive symptoms, you have to have five or more of the following symptoms. And this one has a shorter, So the symptoms have to be there and present during the same two-week period and represent a change from previous functioning. And at least one of these two symptoms must be present. So you either have to have a depressed mood or a loss of interest or pleasure. And they cannot be due to other drugs or medical conditions. So you have to have a depressed mood, loss of interest or pleasure, weight loss or gain. So we're either eating our feelings or we cannot eat anything because we have all the feelings. Insomnia, like I can't sleep, or hypersomnia, I'm excessively tired all day. Feeling like you're moving through mud or like you can't stay still. Fatigue, feeling birthless or excessive or inappropriate feelings of guilt, or decreased concentration. Do you think that being in, obviously we're talking about being in the lifestyle and feeling these things, but they may, everything that you just described, this may not be the first time that you've felt a lot of these things. You know, because if you tend to, if you have been diagnosed with these before, or you've been through other life experiences, these qualifiers that you just mentioned may sound very familiar or be very familiar for you. Yeah. And I did want to say, like, lots of people come into the lifestyle with these diagnoses. And I just want to say there's so much space for you. There's so much room here for you. And it just means we've got to have a plan. So whether or not you came in with these qualifiers or you experienced any of this stuff, let's make a plan. Because we want you to be able to play well and to sustain yourself and to get back to the really, really high highs, which is why we are all here. Yes, definitely. So some things to think about for managing this is, number one, don't feel afraid to ask your doctor for extra support around medication. Medication, even if it's for a small amount of time. Even if you're like, listen, the next two months is going to be crazy, and I already have this drop that's been repeating, get some medication for a small amount of time. I think I heard a, I wish I could remember her name, but there was a comedian who figured out that she was bipolar, and she's like, I feel like I've been treading water for forever, and she's like, and the medication made me feel like I had arm floaties on, and it was the first time I felt like, hey, I can actually tread water, not like, oh my gosh, I'm treading water, you know? And so she was like, wear the arm floaties because life is too hard already. So that's my encouragement. Wear some arm floaties. Engage in self-soothing skills. So the things that make you feel really grounded, like yourself, that make you feel calmer, those are the things you want to pick up. And you need those whether you're at home in your vanilla life or in the lifestyle. And I also think self-soothe skills make the lifestyle better because there's so many, Conflicting, opposite emotions that you feel, being able to soothe yourself instead of having to rely on external soothing spaces is really important. So even if you're like, I only get a small drop and it lasts for 24 hours, grab some skills. We'll be good for you. And those skills might look like go take go for a workout, talk about it with a person you trust, journal about it. Let me tell you, you can be crazy on a journal, right? Like I can be Bad, unhinged person today, and that journal will not say a thing tomorrow, and you will be just fine. Breathe for a bit. Take a cold shower to regulate your nervous system, or regulate with your partner. Cuddle naked. Get that good, yummy oxytocin hit, because you will need it. So whether it's anxiety or depression or mimicking of these emotional specifiers, and I do want to say, like, I gave the qualifier so you would know if you were actually in that space. because we're working through stuff ourselves. Sometimes our partners can get involved a little bit too soon or sometimes I'm not ready for that or, you know, sometimes I need you and I need you now. Like you just mentioned, we need to lay together. We need to talk about this. So it's really a tricky situation sometimes that we've learned, you know, how long do I need to work through something before I need the support of my partner and am I I think being able to talk to your partner about what's going on inside of you is important also like the level of space you need or the level of closeness like I'm like getting the bed naked now I need to co-regulate but other people might be like I need a lot of space I need some me time I need to like go be by myself and then come back into the space and other people just like need time they need their schedules they They need their normal routines, and then they're okay. But it is also important for us to be able to communicate to them our need levels and what we need and how we need them to show up if they need anything. I love it when people are like, is there anything I can do that would support you in this moment? What can I do to help you in this moment? And sometimes it's like nothing, and it's like, that's okay too. Yeah, I think one thing that I'm learning, I think we are learning, is that it's not necessarily one person or the other. It's an issue. It's working together as a team to talk about whatever it is. If it happens to be something that one of the two of us is going through, then not being defensive or not trying to blame, you know, that is a difficult skill to learn. Because it's so easy, as Mrs. Jones was mentioning before, it's so easy for me to go to logic brain when the other person is not there. And then whatever she's sharing with me just doesn't make any sense, because I'm like, that's not logical at all. If we just would think about this for a minute and play this out to the end, you can clearly see that this is not an issue. But for some reason, that doesn't work. Oh, my gosh. I like to think, like, whenever someone's lid is flipped, I'm just like, that person isn't going to hear any of this logic. So if they're like, the moon is blue and it's yelling at me, and it's like, yes, it is, you are absolutely correct, because there is no rationalizing with that. And that's not also something they're probably going to want, even though you're like, if you would just sleep, like, we'd be fine. Right, and the logical part of my brain knows that too, so thanks for, like, telling me something I already know. Okay, well then you two, okay, I'll do your test dumb. within your interpretation of that event. My inner lawyer will be like, I got receipts. It does not really matter that I have receipts, right? And it doesn't matter that either one of us have our own version. It matters that we can connect and talk about it and feel validated and heard. And so if we have some type of ritual around how we connect, how we like lay down all our pricklies, and we engage with each other in a way that makes us both feel grounded. and connected at the same time, then that's how we reassure each other. It's not so much like, I want to say that you were right or I'm coming onto your side of the street. It's how do we connect? How do we put all of our shields and swords down and just connect with each other? And that in and of itself is reassurance. It's reassuring your nervous system and it's reassuring your partner. Like, I'm choosing you. I want to be with you. I want us to be calm and loving and together. That's what reassurance is to me. I think when I know that we're in a place where I can just say what's on my mind and Mr. Jones is going to just accept it, he doesn't have to fix it, he doesn't have to defend it, because honestly he didn't do anything wrong, right? It's just that this is the way I'm feeling and I don't know why I'm feeling that way, but I am. and if it can just be heard and accepted without me having to come back and go into lawyer defense lawyer mode right yeah i think validating emotions is so important because it lets your partner know that you see them and that's what intimacy is like we just all truly deeply want to be seen by another person we want our stories to be witnessed um i think that's what makes us human so knowing that your partner is able to validate you which of course like you said does not mean that they agree doesn't mean that they actually think that what you're saying is completely correct or that they even accept it it's i can reflect back to you what i'm hearing because i want you to know that i'm listening and then i can also reflect back to your emotions like that sounds really difficult that sounds like the way that i showed up must have really hurt your feelings right like that's not me saying i did that intentionally i'm saying like i hear you and i love you and i want you to feel seen yeah and i think that um your colleague uh kel helped me a little bit with that too because this is where my enneagram comes in, you know, because when Mrs. Jones is in distress, I kind of, I can feel that myself, maybe for a different reason. But because I'm feeling it, it's harder for me sometimes to set my emotions aside and just listen to her and attribute everything as coming from her and not impacting me the way that I feel that it is. So sometimes I have to just say, okay, this is the way you feel things. This is the way you process things. So just learn to set that, recognize it, and then try to set it aside and then refocus back on what she's saying. Yeah. I think what I'm also hearing you say is, like, I try to depersonalize it. I try to make sure it's not always like, oh, she's saying this about me, or this is, how is this affecting my narrative of myself? It's like, my person is having a moment, and I would just want to to be able to be here with them so they know that they're not alone. And how do I support them in that space before I sit there and start personalizing it? I love that. So we get it right sometimes. Yes, yes, I think you do. So I think your partner is allowed to have, you know, different perspectives and emotions about how this event, tryst, evening went. And then they're also allowed to share their side as well. Like, even if it's hard for you to hear or you're like, that is not how the event went, that is not how the evening went, the validation has to go both ways. And I do want to say that this beautiful ability to validate emotions is probably not something you can do when you are dysregulated. So your lid flip has to be fully back down. And, you know, if that requires you to soothe yourself for a little bit, please do. If that requires you to take some space. do that um not the kind don't don't go and be like i took two days because michelle on we got a thing said i need to take space i do not want those emails um but if you take 20 to 30 minutes to calm yourself so you can come back to the conversation with your partner do that yeah sometimes we do need more than 20 minutes uh you know to do that so it's if our is in a really solid place. It's easier to not react and to stay calm. But I imagine if somebody, and I mean, everybody's been there if you've been in a relationship for any number of years. But if it's just another thing, like if last week you had an argument about that, and the week before this happened and you had a fallout about that, all of that really plays into how patient I can be. or how calm I can be, that this isn't just, you know, is this just one more thing that we have to deal with? And is my relationship really not in question here? Or has it been going, has it been one thing after another? And I think sometimes it just seems like in life, oh my gosh, just one more thing that we have to deal with. And in those cases, it is a little bit more difficult not to get a little bit overanxious about, Maybe there's something larger here going on than I can perceive. Ooh, I like that. It's the cross-pollinization effect, right? Sometimes it can go both ways. I know that there are people who like to try to keep their E&M and then their vanilla life very separate. But sometimes things have happened, like you've had so many things in your vanilla life happen, and then you get to an event, and you're like, I'm going to have fun, but it comes with you. So it might be really hard to get into these fun, sexy spaces, and that might create more anxiety for you. And so you have some cross-pollinization there. And also the other way, you know, you might have something that happened while you were at this event or an evening or whatever, and you want to leave it there or leave it in the car. Because a lot of people have these conversations in the car. And it doesn't. It follows you into the next day. And so, you know, especially around E&M, our communication pitfalls become very blaringly bright, like the longer that we're in it, because it requires us, which is one of the things I love about E&M, is it requires us to have better communication tools and to confront the things that we've learned to dance around in monogamy. And so, you know, that in and of itself requires us to have hard conversations, which causes anxiety. And that's okay. And it's hard. And it's really good because the other side of that is a beautiful space where you and your partner are way more aligned than you were when you started. I think, you know, years ago, and I don't know if we stole this from somebody or we made it up. We probably stole it from somebody. But we said that the lifestyle is kind of like a magnifying glass. Yes, like it's really going to magnify the cracks in your relationship. And then it's also going to make those, the strength of your relationship like really blossom. Yes, yes. And that is the thing that I've heard people say, even when they're like, I think I'm all the way out of E&M, except for like my big toe. The one thing they say is like, the thing that's keeping me here is how amazing our communication and our ability to validate space for each other has gotten through this experience. And so, like, the fruits of E&M are just really quite wonderful here, even though getting through it makes you confront your own anxiety. And normally behind that anxiety is, like, negative thoughts we have about ourselves or narratives that we probably need to confront anyway. And this platform allows you to do that. Right. And I think what we've learned that was, I think, a lot of people misperceive is that if you need to take a step back, that doesn't mean that you leave the community. or that you leave your friendships. You know, maybe it means that you just stop with the sexy fun for a little bit and take something off the table while everything else gets into balance. You know, we touched on this last month with Catherine. We were talking about, you know, something that is an addictive, you know, sort of a thing. And so to be able to, just like everything else in life, take something off your plate. We were just talking not too long ago that we want to make it a priority to take a a vacation, just the two of us every year. And if all of a sudden you realize, well, wait a minute, we used to do that. How come we're not doing that anymore? Well, it's because we've added all of these other things to our calendar and maybe we need to reprioritize ourself for a minute to get back to a little bit more solid ground or solid footing so that we can get back to enjoying the highs that come along with non-monogamy. Yeah. Oh, that's so important. I have worked with quite a few couples who will be like, we have been doing, we've got E&M stuff every moment we have free, every kid-free weekend we have, and I will ask them, when was the last time you guys went on a date? And they'll have to pause and think about it. And I'm like, you know, there's a portion of this where we do make a little bit of a withdrawal from our relationship bank by being an E&M, and you've got to make those deposits. Otherwise, sometimes you do feel that something's happening, I need to hold on tighter to my person, but that's just indicative of the fact that you guys haven't made some deposits. That's great. I love the fact that you guys are doing that. I think it's so important. Also, probably very hard for you guys, because you guys do a lot of vacationing with sexy friends, and I would probably be like, but they're going to be there. I know, I know. It's difficult, and we've had to make some really hard choices lately about what we're putting on our calendar. And it isn't because we don't want to do the things that we're turning down. It's just because we've learned the hard way that we leaned on our relationship a little too hard for a little too long. And it did start to show some cracks. And, you know, luckily we've been very intentional about fixing that and we're very aware of what brought that on now. Yeah, and we've also learned that our true friends and the connections and the obligations that we do have, people, it's not the end of the world. I mean, people understand because like you said at the outset, other people have been through this before. So, you know, if you know somebody really well, they're not going to take it personally. They're going to give you the space that you need. And when you're ready to come back into that environment, you can choose to come back in. I mean, we certainly, you know, I think if we're on the other side of it, like if we have friends who are going through and maybe depression, it's so easy for us to kind of say, we get it. You know, you guys do what you need to do. But I think sometimes we are afraid to do that because we think people are going to abandon us or they're going to think less of us. Well, one thing we've learned to say when we say no is we say we're saying no because of our schedule, not because we don't want to. And please don't take us off your future guest list. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So that way they know, like, Don't forget about us. We'll still be here. Yeah. You know, and that releases some of my anxiety because I think my anxiety comes from an overloaded calendar. Yeah. And I think that I'm piggybacking off of like what you said about that gentle, beautiful way of saying like, no, so that people don't hear it as rejection. I think a lot of there is some spaces in, you know, where people get really anxious about this because they are scared of like receiving that rejection, even if it is soft because their brains will go. Are you sure? Or like having to turn other people down in this, right? Like, oh my gosh, like we do have to concentrate on each other. But now we have to say no to everybody else around us. And the dread that comes with having to tell other people that you're pausing or worried that they are going to forget about you is a real thing. Yeah, especially when you have thousands of listeners who know you have a lifestyle podcast. That was a little awkward. Yeah, they're going to be listening for like, are you sure? Did you? Did you really pause? Suggest me. Oh, yeah. That's got to be an interesting space to be in for you all for sure. And I couldn't even imagine it. But the way you just phrased it, Mrs. Jones, is beautiful. I don't think anybody would sit there and think that they were rejected. I think that was a lovely way of saying, it's not you, it's the schedule, I promise. Okay, so that's the majority of it. I think we talked a little bit about the reassurance piece, but I did want to pause for a minute and just kind of bring to light like aftercare. I know we've talked a little bit about it before, but I wanted to make sure that people understand that if your partner has that drop after an event, it's really important to be able to support them in a way that feels soothing for them. Otherwise, it does sometimes feel like depression. So whether that's they need something physical, right? Maybe they need to be, they need to cuddle naked. Maybe they need that skin-to-skin contact. It might be I need a lighter day or I need to sleep in a little bit more in order to like regain my energy and my awareness around where I'm at and what's happening. They might need to be loved a little louder, right? Like you had all of this fun and all I did was flirt with one person the whole time and now I'm having like all of these self-doubts. Like, I need a lot of reassurance. And is that something that you're willing to provide? And it might also look like a lot of quiet. Like, I need a nunnery for a little bit because I've enjoyed the stimulation, but now I'm completely depleted from my social battery, and I need to recharge that. And so I need, like, quietness and contemplative spaces and softness for a while. And so whatever that aftercare looks like for your partner who does experience that drop. Maybe talking about what the aftercare looks like between the two of you, right? So they might feel like when you come home and you've got like all these digits in your phone, you know, and you're like, I can't wait to text everybody. And they're like, I'm going to need some of that sunshine sent my way for a certain amount of time. And then we can go play with everybody else. So making sure you're having those conversations because the aftercare matters because when we have continual drops, they beget other continual drops, right? Our brains get used to it and start to expect it. So we can just cut that off from the very beginning if we start to implement some self-care plans around that. Okay, so then that just leads me straight into reiterating that self-care, support, all of that matters. Whether that's individual therapy with the therapist who understands or at least is accommodating in a sex-positive way, not in like, oh, I get it, that's weird, but all right, it's out of my couch. in a way like they're actively cheerleading that for you or seeing a coach i'll make us a shameless plug here for all of the coaches here at expansive connection if you are having some struggles or some bigger emotions that kind of took you by surprise which happens on the sexy side and on the not sexy side so both things can be true feel free to reach out to us we would love to be able to work with you for as long as you need it i mean if you've been doing this for a while you may have the luxury of having friends, you know, that you can pick up the phone or you can Zoom with or you can visit if they're close by. But, you know, early on in the lifestyle, you don't have a community. You don't have a large connection of friends. And I imagine that you feel a whole lot more isolated because not only do you have a partner, but not a lot of support, but, you know, that means you just spend more time inside of your head or feeling sorry for yourself or, you know. One thing that I have learned is I've learned so much about myself. And so I think people need to stop and learn about themselves so that they know when, what type of care and what type of support is out there. And so whether it's professional or whether it's a community or whether it's a friendship, you know, having that in the non-monogamy world takes a lot of work and some time. It doesn't happen overnight. that we always fall back on too is I just need to go for a walk you know I don't have to go run a marathon I can just go for a walk or I can just get outside or I can go for a bike ride and you know just being outside you know we forget how cleansing it is and especially this time of year it's springtime it's getting warmer outside again the daylight you know there's more daylight so I'm not as depressed it's not getting dark as early yeah I always get really happy about springtime coming around because I'm Like, yes, seasonal depression is going away. It makes everybody much happier. Please get outside and get some sunshine. You will find me pretty much from here until, you know, we're sitting in the devil's butt crack because I'm in the south, hot on my hammock. I love it. It's in the sunshine. It's beautiful. I find it to be, like, kind of simulating that kind of, like, a hug feeling. And so I will be in my hammock rocking for a very long time. Well, and I know some of the clues that Mrs. Jones has given me over the years is when she talks about the beach being her happy place, then I need to make sure she gets time in her happy place. So let's grab a bottle of wine and let's go sit on the beach. And boy, that takes the pressure off of me because we're sitting side by side. She's just looking straight ahead at the water and she's reading her book or whatever it is. But then that makes me feel like I'm not the one that is across the table from her trying to decide if this is something that I need to help with or do I just listen to? You fix my problem by driving me to the beach. That is beautiful. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. That's a great clear example of like voicing what it is that helps you feel grounded and how your partner can support you. I'll sign up for driving to the beach like that's all I got to do. I just got to the beach. Done. Done. Yeah. It's only seven miles away. Yeah. Yeah, we had to move a thousand miles to make it happen. That's love. That's love right there. I like it. Yeah, that's right. Nothing's too good for you, honey. Okay, so I think to wrap this up a little bit, I just wanted to state that all of these experiences are common. I've heard about them the entire time I've been working with people in E&M. I don't think it's going away anywhere or anytime soon. And if you experience these, On any level, you are normal. There are ways to deal with this. And it's so important for you to communicate to the people around you how to support you, how to implement, create healthier dynamics around communication with your partner. So they don't feel like, you know, like, they're playing a game of whack-a-mole of, like, how to take care of you, or, like, this event was different from the other event, but this still happened. important in this aspect of our lives because for some reason we have this idea that everyone else's world is perfect. And I would be embarrassed to share this or I know, just look at them. Obviously, they don't have the same issues that we have and they're so perfect. Well, when people listen to our podcast and they hear how much fun we have, right? Well, we do have a lot of fun, but we also struggle sometimes. And, you know, people say, you guys sound so normal. Well, I think this, like you just said, this is part of the normal. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, people don't know how much work it took for you to get to where you are right now. Like, we get to see the happy bubbly places, and you've also shared quite a bit, but they don't actually see the in vivo work that it took for this to happen. Right. Yeah. And I think if you, we've joked about this before, but if you want to have an adult conversation, going back to like the adult chair, if you want to have an adult conversation with your partner, start a podcast. Because, you know, when there's a bunch of other people listening, you tend to be on your better behavior. You know, so we have found. These microphones across the kitchen table from each other are very good regulators. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. But people also need to know when they're shut down. We've had our share of knockdown drag outs, so to speak. So yeah, it happens to everybody. Well, that's good. I think that's good for people to hear because no two relationships are the same. Everybody's relationship is pretty much a thumbprint. So you got to figure out the things that work for you. And if it is more than two days of not talking, then maybe that's what it is too. Well, that's true. Yeah, I don't think we've ever made it two full days. But, you know, when your lid is flipped, I think that's the thing that we've learned. Like, that's, like, the number one thing. When the other person's lid is flipped, you just got to give them a minute. Yes. You know, you cannot bring somebody down. That person has to, like you say, self-regulate and bring yourself down and get your own self-stabilized. I mean, so you think of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when they're, like, they drink the thing with the bubbles and they have to burp to get themselves down. Like, that's what we have to do. No one else can make you burp. You got to do it yourself so you can land back on your feet. That's perfect. Well, I can maybe pat you on the back a little bit. There you go. I like this. I like that. All right. Well, before we close, Miche, we're always happy to hear that you guys are really busy over at Expansive Connection. We mentioned springtime and fresh things. Katherine mentioned a lot that you had going on in recent past, but, you know, what have you got coming up that you want to share with other people? We're going to have another couples retreat as well. All the specifics for that, for the dates, times, the place, who's going to be there, the itemized list, please go to our website, expansiveconnection.com, to be able to see all of the specifics for that, and to contact us through the website, and we'll send you that stuff. But right now, we have a waiting list for it. So if you are thinking about it, feel free to go on the waiting list. We don't know what's happening. The airports are crazy. But come on in and we'll see what we can do. That's awesome. Waiting list means that you're doing a good job and that you're putting something out there that people are finding value in. So good for you. I'll just remind people that they can also find Expansive Connection on our website under things that we recommend. And also if you are a member of our We Gotta Think community, Expansive Connection has a space in there that you can find all the information in. And of course, you can always go to the Contact Us section of our website or send me an email. Or how can people contact you through Expansive Connection, Miche? Is that on your website as well? Yeah, it's on the website as well. It's also, you can just email me at miche at expansiveconnection.com. It's just my first name. And we'll get back with you. Either way, if you get us through We Got a Thing, through our website, through the email, Someone will come back to you. So three different ways. As always, it's a lot of fun working with Expansive Connection. And we're glad to catch up with you. It's been a while. But yeah, it's been a great conversation. And we appreciate your taking the time and be willing to help everyone out there who's going through this wonderful lifestyle journey. Thank you. It's my pleasure. We are Mr. and Mrs. Jones, and we got a thing. What's your thing? Hey, this is Jessica. 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