Episode 154: Why Comparison is the Thief of Joy

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey, you teenagers out there. If you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello, everyone. I'm Mr. Jones. And I'm Mrs. Jones. And I'm Kel with Expansive Connection. We want to welcome you to episode 154 of the We Got a Thing podcast. Why Comparison is the Thief of Joy. I think Mrs. Jones you brought this up about a hundred episodes ago or so. Yes it's a quote and of course I can't remember who the original quote came from I actually think I remember something about Teddy Roosevelt and I don't even know how that would tie in. It's a commonly known thing so we're gonna just say it's somebody famous. Well welcome back it's good to see you again in spring clothes by the way it's up now and the sun is staying up in the air longer and we're getting out and about and traveling in the new year. So it's been a little bit exciting around here. We've been pretty busy. So I'd really, Kel, if you don't mind introducing yourself. We've got a collaboration with Expansive Connection, as most of you know, and Kel is one of the coaches over there. So Kel, if you'll take a minute and introduce yourself and let us know what you've been up to lately. Sure. I'm Kel, and I am one of the five coaches at the Expansive Connection practice. We have grown and are excited about all the things that are going on in our coaching practice, and I'm really happy to be one of those coaches. I love working with couples and individuals on their relationship. What's been going on with me? Gosh. Well, the husband and I just went on a really big vacation, so we were gone for two and a half weeks to Europe. It was glorious. I did not want to come home. I could have sent money to our child that still lives at home a few more years before we're joyous empty nesters and convinced him to become independent. No, not really. But it really made me excited for the idea of being able to be less tied down and looking forward to those years of being done raising my kids. I've done a darn good job, if I say so myself. So I'm excited about what comes next. So that was a little precursor to that. So you've earned what comes next. Yes. I feel very confident that I have earned it. And, you know, if you launch a bunch of kids out in the wild and they all do well and stick, then you really feel like you earned it. So that'll be the hope is that they all stay flying and don't come back to the nest. But so we did that, which was really exciting. And we are getting ourselves all ready to actually go to Desire in June with the We Got a Thing group. And so we're really excited about that trip. So that's our, we kind of live like in between vacations. So that's our next one we're looking forward to. Doesn't everybody do that? Yeah, I think so. I think we have to, we have to have a good out there on the horizon that were, you know, going to the gym three or four times a week and going, this is about looking good in desire. Yes, exactly. You got to have something in the pipeline, keep you motivated. So was it just the two of you in Europe? Yes, it was. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was really nice. We had some friends that met us for a period of time, which was really lovely. And it was their first time in Europe. And so that was a lot of fun. But we had a lot of time, just the two of us, which was really, really fun. Excellent. Speaking of Desire in June, we do have openings still, and we do have a promo code for that week. I believe it's June 20th through the 27th. So if you're in our community or join our community, we do have a special promo code that Desire has given us for that week. So if you think you want to go meet Kel in person, that would be the best way to do it, in my opinion. It is the most open way to see me and meet me. Yeah, it's going to be a lot more, let's say, a lot more skin showing than in the chair at a coaching session. Oh, my goodness. So, comparison. You know, this is one of these things that we all do. I think we all can relate to, not just in the lifestyle, but in life in general. So, we're going to turn it over to you to set this up and get into the conversation about comparison. Absolutely. Well, I really, this topic had been on my mind a little You know, us coaches are always kind of throwing around what we think would be a good topic to come and talk to your audience about and have a really great discussion with the two of you about. But I was listening to your podcast actually earlier this month where you talked about insecurities. And Mrs. Jones really did a great job of talking about comparison being one of the roots, I will say, of insecurity. She talked about how hard it is, how prevalent it is, and especially in the lifestyle. And I just really thought that her Comments were just so wise and so honest. And it just made me want to talk more about that topic. You know, you guys had a wide, a very wide spectrum that you talked about in terms of insecurity. And so, of course, comparison could just be a blip. But I just felt like there was a lot more to say about this really, really hard thing that all of us do. But my goodness, how much more do we all do it once we step into non-monogamy and once we step into the lifestyle? Yeah, and even in real life, like when you ask somebody to compare this to that, desire comes to mind because, you know, there's Riviera Maya and there's Pearl. And if you throw, if you ask the question, hey, I'm comparing these two resorts, typically you get the people who like RM trying to convince you that RM is better. And then you get the Pearl people trying to convince you the Pearl is better. And we can't help to put a little bit of bias, you know, into things that we share with other people. So, you know, this is something that I believe and you're going to get into this is wired into us. It's kind of baked in, you know, to every human. Sure, for sure. There's no escaping comparison. And, you know, I think that that's sort of where we'll start is I'd also want to say comparison, as we talk about it being baked into every person, is not a bad thing. It is a necessary part of our brains. You know, it is a skill. Comparison is a brain skill. It is a tool that we have used since, you know, we were all cavemen. And we used it for good and for positive back then. And now, you know, anytime I'm talking about old kind of genetic or DNA stuff, I always kind of call it that caveman crap. Because we have a lot of things that still exist in us that really served our ancestors and really don't serve us any longer. And I think comparison in its ugliest form is one of those things. And so when we think about comparison, it is a survival skill that we had to help us decide who was safe, where were the best resources that we could find, who is the best person to mate with, that I'll have the best children and I'll have the best longevity for my genes, what tribe is best, and then where am I in the tribe? All of these skills were super, super important in early life. And survival of the fittest teaches us that the people that were the best comparers made the best people and their genes are the genes that we're still living with today. So we can thank our great times 100 grandparents for making us these really intense comparison humans that we are today. And so that hasn't gone away. Our brains are still asking, do I have enough? Am I safe? Do I measure up? every day in a million different ways. Another brain fact that we can share right now is that our brains are gifted in what's called negativity bias. And that also is a comparison. So what's good and what's bad, the brain is always having to kind of sift and figure out what it wants to pay attention to. And there is much bigger and better reasoning to pay attention to the things that are bad, that can harm us, than the things that are neutral or good. So it is much more important for our brain, I'll say this all the time, to be safe over being happy. And so when your brain is paying more attention to safety, it is automatically going to pay attention to more things that can hurt us. What's missing? Where am I behind? What are the threats to me and the things that I care about? So we are constantly scanning for those things. And what that looks like now is, you know, I always talk about this idea that Long ago, we had all of this scanning, all of this brainpower that was going into our safety systems. And there were so many things that we had to be afraid of and we had to be scared of and we had to be scanning for. You know, we had shelter and we had hunting and we had prey and we had predators and we had other tribes that could come in and attack us. And all of that exists in our brain. All of that hypervigilance is still there. But now, through modern technology and modern achievements, we don't really have any of that to worry about anymore. We don't have to worry about our shelter. Most of us have a great home to live in. And, you know, we may worry about paying the mortgage, but we're not worried about the solidity of the roof and that we don't have to worry that someone's going to invade us and take it. We don't really worry about food. We don't really worry about shelter. We don't really worry about threats in terms of predators. And so what our brain has done is not gotten rid of all of that scanning. It's just focused it all on us in relationship with others. How much do you think, when you're comparing two things, or when you're comparing yourself against others, or you as a couple against others, you're comparing an incomplete picture to another one? You know, especially, you know, we have a perception or a view of ourselves that doesn't necessarily line up with how others view us and the reality of who we really are compared to who we think we are. So... How much do you think that plays into this? And over time, you know, how can I learn where I belong properly on that scale? Because I may have a larger impression about my looks or, you know, my sense of humor or anything than other people do. And so not only do I get into trouble for comparing myself to somebody else, but I'm comparing my perception of myself to what I'm seeing across from me. Of course. And I think when we think about that scanning that I was talking about, we're scanning things like appearance, which is very much, you know, beauty is in the eye of the behold. We know there are cultural standards. We have all been shown through, you know, our media what we think ideal is. But we do, like you said, Mr. Jones, you know, there's a very large difference between how attractive I might think I am and how attractive someone else might think I am. Because again, there's just different standards for that. So we're comparing these things like appearance and relationships and careers and homes and kids to, again, sort of a false representation of someone else's. Because we know and we do have a sense of where we are and where we stand, but we really don't have an honest accounting about someone else's. So I think that's one of the hard things about comparison now is that It's just not as simple as safe and unsafe, good, bad. It's not as simple as there's a bear there, or there's not a bear there, or there's a great field here for our livestock to graze in, or there's no field. I mean, those were so black and white. And today, I think it is even harder for our brains because these things are so gray. And again, to your point, if we think about comparison being actually not a necessarily all bad thing, we're just using it right now for things that harm us. start to think about the ways it harms us. You just nailed one. Which is, we do an unrealistic job. We have an unrealistic standard for our comparisons. All we really can compare against is our ideas. What we think, what we know about ourselves, and then what we've sort of made that judgment in our own minds as bad or good. And a lot of times those things that you're judging, your initial impressions, are about superficial things. Of course. Yeah. So that's not fair. I mean, it's not a fair assessment. Yeah. And as we start to talk about relationships, you know, before the lifestyle, when we are not partnered, when we don't have a partner, a spouse, life is very selfish. You know, we're learning. We don't have anyone except for family, like giving us inputs, family and friends. And we're who we think we are. And then we get into a marriage or a partnership. And I know that it took us, I think it was maybe after year seven of our marriage where we finally figured out, you know, that we probably are learning more about who we are because I'm living with somebody else than who I thought I was. and who influenced me to believe that. So it's just something that I think we all have to have our ears open and be willing to understand that our view of who we are is not anywhere close, especially when we're younger in life. It's not anywhere close to who we really are, who we really can be. Yeah, I agree. I think that's probably one of the biggest ways that comparison hurts our relationship and then in turn hurts us is this idea that we have really unrealistic expectations I think we have those for ourselves we have those you know just in in reality especially when we come into a relationship you know we kind of think think about when you first come into a relationship you're like I'm the easiest person to live with ever well why because you're the only person you've lived with and yeah it's really easy to live with you when it's just you so we we partner with a and we have these expectations and we're comparing the way they do XYZ, load the dishwasher, make the bed, take out the trash, to the way we do it. And of course, the way we do it, we instinctually say is right. And the way they do it is wrong. And so we have this unrealistic expectation of someone else that they're doing it wrong when they're just not doing it the way we do it. And I think what happens is that we do that in comparison with ourselves and our relationships and our partners. If our comparison model, which is our brain, only has part of the data. And part of the data, I think, is who we really are. I think a lot of us are blind to a lot of good things and bad things about ourselves. But we're so much more behind the eight ball when it comes to the data we have about other people. You know, we are looking at, you know, to your point, Mrs. Jones, such an incomplete picture of someone. We, A, can only see the external things that we, you know, are privy to see on the other side. the outside of them. But we also only see the things that they decide to allow us to be privy about their insight. So a lot of times people will come to see me and they'll talk about comparison with me in the coaching chair, and they are comparing someone else's presented self to their real unvarnished self. You know, look at this couple. Look at all of the traveling they do. They must be so happy and so in love. And there's also so And why aren't we like that? Well, that's looking at a Facebook post. Or we had a thing post. And that's not looking at someone's balance sheet or their bank statement or their credit card statement. It's not riding in the Uber with them to the airport where they're fighting the whole time about being late or packing too much. We are comparing apples to orangutans. I wouldn't even say oranges because it's so far off from reality. And that tends to create a coming up short. that's automatically going to make us feel bad. Yeah. I can't. It's hard to believe that we're still married, and I don't mean this in a negative way. But really, I mean, I didn't know myself at 21, and we knew each other for six months, and we got engaged, and then we were married. And then one of the best ways to get to know each other is to talk. And I'm guilty because I remember talking about communication, and sometimes Mrs. Jones would say, you don't. You don't communicate very well. And I said, what do you want to communicate about? I was like, okay, pick a topic. Let's talk about it. Not really understanding that the communication is kind of another gateway into who I am. I mean, I know who I am, or at least I know who I think I am. And we sometimes get into a situation where somebody else is just going to know me, just based on a limited amount of information. So when we think about our marriage, you know, gosh, that's why it took us, I think, years to get to a point where we fully understood ourselves and who we wanted to be and who we were before we even had a chance to think about what kind of relationship we were trying to build. Well, I think you think about what you just said, Mr. Jones, and how much work it took you to understand all of those nuances and all those things about you and that being in a marriage helped you do that. That was years of discovery to sort of create the sense of self and the sense of who I want to be. You know, the other thing that's really hard about comparison is we do it in a split second. You know, we don't take six months to think about all of the things about ourselves and really sort of, I guess, really kind of dive into the things we're seeing in another that we're instantly making better than us. We're not really questioning that. We're not really arguing against that. We're not pushing back against those ideas. And so we don't have the self-reflection and the self, you know, awareness that you do. had in those moments where we feel, again, this insecurity that's kind of bred through this comparison when we make ourselves feel less or we judge ourselves as less than. We aren't really testing the thing we're looking at. You know, we're just like, they're beautiful. Done. Obviously, they're happier. Obviously, they're more contented. Obviously, they're this, this and that. You know, they have such a great marriage. Done. I'm making that judgment based on a dinner or listening to a podcast or, any other quick assessment that I'm making and comparing those maybe even 30 minutes, maybe even three hours to 40 plus years of existence. Wow. What a distorted view of yourself versus others. Yeah. And I think, you know, as we moved on in our life, in our relationship, sometimes we compare our, the maturity of our relationship to others. And it's really not. as much as it is, how has the other couple or how have we grown together? The intimacy that we create together needs to be there first. The connection that we're establishing so that we're comfortable with who we are becoming and the trust and everything else that's going to be built on that intimacy has to be there. Well, at least it did in our opinion. It had to be there before we could open that up to anybody else. else. That's why I think a lot of times, and Mrs. Jones, you've said this a lot of times, is people say, well, do you wish you would have gotten into lifestyle earlier? And I don't know that we would have been ready for it based on where we were in life. I know we were not ready for it. Or at least I wasn't. I was very insecure at first and it was because of comparison. And, you know, we tend to skew on the older side of the people we run into in the lifestyle. I mean, there's certainly people our age and older that are actively engaged in the lifestyle. But I, you know, compare myself to another one. a woman that happens to be 10 or 20 years younger than me. And I just, my brain wants to go right to how could Mr. Jones not be attracted to her? She's so much younger than me. So I'm comparing based on age. And that's the only thing. And of course, I'm sure, like in my mind, she's, you know, more beautiful than me and funnier than me. And again, it's because like you referred to earlier, you don't know what's going on in the background. Well, I know I have to be the bad guy when it comes to like, you know, running the household, the drudgery of the bills or the retirement plans that we have. That's drudgery. It's not fun. And then this other beautiful girl just gets to flirt with my husband and she doesn't have to talk about that nonsense with him. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, think about the comparison of a moment versus a life. Right. That's just a huge difference. And I think people let emotion, the emotion, the negative emotion that they feel around comparison drive them and push them into some places where, you know, you can really cause harm and you can really cause damage to your relationship. I think one of the other ways that comparison really hurts us is this distortion, not only in how we see ourselves, which we've been talking about, but if you think about Ms. Jones, what Ms. Jones, what you're saying is you could easily put that comparison on Mr. Jones and start to accuse him or see things like, oh, Oh, obviously, this beautiful, younger woman who's funny and hilarious and you're flirting with, you are more interested. Obviously, she is a good match for you. Obviously, again, you might be happier with her over me. What a distorted way to see that interaction. But it's easy for our brains to kind of go from uh-oh to a little bad to, oh, no, this is the worst thing that could possibly happen. That's a fast kind of run down the hill that our brain can do when it's in negative thinking. And it comes out of nowhere. It really does. And it's like, what made me feel that way? What little thing triggered that? And I can't, usually I cannot pinpoint it. It's just this big wave that'll come over me out of nowhere. Absolutely. And I think going back to your podcast that you guys just had about insecurity, you know, when we talk about insecurity, we sort of talk about comparison. I think it actually works on both sides. So comparison can be the thing that creates insecurity in us. Oh, I'm not as young. Oh, I'm not as beautiful. Well, that's creating a little bit of insecurity. Whereas, you know, like Mr. Jones said, maybe if I go out in the world and I think I'm gorgeous and wonderful, and then all of the sudden, I see someone who challenges that viewpoint about me, makes me feel less, suddenly I'm feeling insecure. I think comparison can also activate or find the insecurities we already have. It can be like a magnifying glass to a feeling we already have deep down. So maybe if I've always been And that can be very, very hard, and really is kind of a distortion that if we're not careful, we'll extrapolate out to mean more about our relationship or more about our partner in a negative way than it really does. I can't say how many couples have come to my chair and come in front of me, and one of them has already decided that their partner is ready to leave them for this person that they have met in non-monogamy who is more beautiful, more easy, more fun, more light, more adventurous. They've already made that connection just because of a look or an encounter. And their poor partner is sitting there going, what are you talking about? But they are certain. Because again, there's this distortion that's happened in their brain, and they're not seeing their partner and not hearing their partner. They're just kind of living out of that fear and that insecurity that comparison has brought. I feel like you were in the room, what, like, that was like six years ago. This happened. And I, truly lost my mind. It was awful. And Mr. Jones was standing there like, I've never seen his eyes so big before. He's like, what the hell is happening here? I said exactly what Kel just said. I said, what are you talking about? I said, it just came out of left field and I didn't really understand it. And like, and I would have not have expected it, you know, because we were doing fine. We had been in a lifestyle for a while and our relationship was fine. And I, you know, I think, The false sense of security in that it's not going to happen may lead a lot of people to believe that they don't have to worry about this. And I also think it's interesting because there's a lot of irony in comparison because if we just, okay, I'll just say, if I just glance at another person or another couple, I have already decided if they are attractive enough for me to be with them. And what I don't think about is now they've done the same thing. And so therefore, if they're not interested in being with me, it must be for the same reason that I wouldn't be interested in somebody else. It really has nothing to do with the person. It's that snap judgment that we make based on one thing of physical appearance. And even after all this time, and we have learned, I think we have learned, that connecting with another human is so important. much more than physical attractiveness. Yet, that's still the first thing that I go to when somebody doesn't want to be with me. Like, okay, I've gained weight or I'm of a certain age or, you know, there's something about me. I don't have as much hair on my head as I used to. Whatever it is, but even though I know over and over and over again, I'm much better at taking my time to get to know other people to really understand who they are than I am accepting the fact That they need to do the same thing with me. Or that they would want to do the same thing with you. Yeah, right. Yeah, for sure. And so I think one of the last things I want to say about how negative comparison really hurts us in relationships is, you know, I think the next thing from that distortion is that we get really certain about this negative thing that we are sure is existing. I'm less than, I'm not as good, and that's going to lead me to this negative place. You're going to not want to be with me. You're going to be with me just because you're stuck with me, but you'd really rather with mystery girl who's got a great laugh and is really funny. And what happens is it sort of blocks intimacy and connection from happening because I am in such a fearful place and I am in such a certain place. I'm sure I'm right. I'm sure this is happening that I can't really be fully present with my person and my partner anymore. And so they are trying so deeply to connect with me and reassure me and help me to hear that that is not true for them. But I am so trapped in the fear and insecurity that comparison has brought to my door, I cannot hear them. I cannot be present. I will talk to couples that are months down the road in this imaginary story of how things are going to go so badly that they can't even pull themselves into the present moment to hear their partner say, I love you. You're beautiful. There's no one else out there for me. This is not a thing that is a threat. They just can't hear it. Because again, that fear is just all-encompassing, and it is blocking them from being able to connect. It is blocking them from being able to hear and be safe, because again, they're in such a fear state. And comparison can put us in such a fearful state. And I think one of the things that we've always said, and I think it just means a little bit more to me now, based on what you just said, Cal, is we've always said that when a couple is together, they're more attractive. to us than their individual persons. And I think that's because we know that they know each other. You know, they're confident about their relationship and they see beauty in each other. And even though, you know, I may see things a certain way with an individual, when I see a couple and I know what they have, that is, and even their physical attractiveness changes in my mind because they're smiling. You know, they're enjoying each other's company. You know, they're a little bit more confident because they're with each other. You know, these are things that I think we've learned over the years that stand out to us that make a couple more physically attractive to us initially than as individuals. Absolutely. And I think to that point, make them feel safer to you, you know, in those moments. Like, it's like, oh, I want to be near them because they seem to be aligned and in the same place and they really like each other. And that's a huge positive thing. I would say when we're in the throes of being afraid or if I've gotten in my head and I'm negatively comparing myself to all of the other women, I'm not connecting with my person. I'm not able to present that front and that really united front that you're describing as being so lovely. I can't do that. And so I'm missing out on being able to present that way. I'm really hurting, in some ways, our chances of an amazing couple like the two of you being attracted to us because there's this friction between us. that other people can pick up on. Like, obviously, something's going on with them. Yeah, I'm in my head, and I'm going through all of these things that are terrible. So, yeah, it's a huge hurt. And it may actually come into play when it's not a longtime married couple. If it's a new relationship, or if it's a single person, or if it's somebody who's recently divorced, the relationship status also can allow things to creep into my head that would not otherwise do so. if it were a couple. And so I might even, you know, feel that I'm comparing, you know, like if we're with somebody who's single, I think it's much easier to say, well, what if Mrs. Jones finds that guy, you know, more attractive to me? There's nothing standing in the way. He doesn't have a partner, you know, so she could just easily, you know, leave me. So I wonder sometimes if the status of the relationship of the other person has something to do with it. Sure, I definitely think you're risking a little bit more fear when there's not an anchor in some ways to keep that other person tied somewhere that you don't have to worry about. And maybe even not risking it. I think you're risking your brain seeing another way that a negative comparison could be an avenue to you losing your person, which is always that most scary thing that we do. So absolutely, I think you're right. I definitely think it makes a difference. So let's talk about the where we see this, I think, to make it relevant for your listeners. Where do we see this all of the time, especially in people that choose to get into the lifestyle or thinking about the lifestyle or have been in the lifestyle, like you guys said, for years? And then, oh, no, we start to see this start to creep up. You know, the biggest thing is exactly what we've been talking about really kind of off and on since we started this conversation, which is this whole body image and beauty standards. I mean, male and female, there are ways that we culturally feel are, you know, good and bad to look. There are, you know, of course, being older is bad. Being heavier is bad. Being short is bad. Being out of shape is bad. There is a list a mile long of things that we have a negative connotation with that if we look at ourselves and we see those things and we look at others and we don't, well, obviously, that's a negative for me. I'm down for the count here because I'm not as young, as beautiful, as thin. And so I think that is very prevalent. It's very interesting sometimes to talk to people who for years, being married, didn't care one about body image or beauty standards. Because guess what? You're stuck with me no matter what. You're going to love me with these love handles no matter what. And then they step into this space where once again, they're trying to attract others and in some ways compete for attention from others. And all of that comes forward. And maybe it's not just the present. Sometimes it's all of the things from maybe before we got married when we were teenagers or in college, rushing back to all of those feelings. And so, you know, this is just such a common one. I know, you know, we've probably all sitting here had a place where we felt negatively comparing ourselves to others in one of these, you know, external, very, very limited facets that feel like success. You know, I've got to be beautiful to step into this. Well, first of all, like you said, Mr. Jones, what does that mean? You know, other than all of these like things we think, but there are so many beautiful people that are every size and shape and height and weight and everything. I mean, we've definitely experienced that and, you know, in all of the places we've been. But again, your brain doesn't let you see that nuanced approach. It sees this narrow, there's a good and a bad. And I think that because we all know that appearance is the first impression you're going to make upon somebody. They're going to see you before you even have a chance to get something out of your mouth and show them how funny you are or how smart you are. You know, so I think that that's always the thing that we beat ourselves up the most about because, you know, and what do we say? First impressions are everything, right? Yeah, and I think we also compare ourselves to ourselves, which is unfair to other people too, because I may say, oh gosh, I'm 20 pounds heavier than I was when I graduated, or more, or I'm 10 pounds heavier than I was last year, or 5 pounds lighter, whatever it is. But when I walk up to you and I meet you for the first time, I have no idea what you looked like yesterday or a year ago. I only know how you're presenting to me now. And if I'm attracted to that, sometimes you're comparing yourself to what you want to be or what you used to be gets in the way for you to see that there's somebody standing right in front of you that seems to be attracted to you. So maybe you should take it as a win. Definitely. And going back to that idea, suddenly you're comparing your judgment against yourself, comparing yourself to others, has distorted your view of this other person. in front of you who's trying to give you a compliment or trying to come on to you and you're dismissing that it can't possibly be true because how could they be coming on to you if i've gained 10 pounds in the past two years and they don't even know what you looked like two years ago yes definitely i think another place that this really shows up in the lifestyle is these areas of relationship status or relationship health so this is sort of a couple or a person in a couple looking at another couple and again this can happen outside the lifestyle for sure. How many of us have vanilla friends that we kind of go, well, they seem to have a great marriage or they seem to have a not so great marriage? And we do this whole comparison about, well, you know, how Bob and Sue communicate seems really, really easy and how we communicate seems really, really hard. Or, you know, this couple seems so loving and so passionate. Where's the love and passion from our marriage gone? You know, again, we're always sort of asking those kind of questions like, why don't we do what they do? Why aren't we as happy? and carefree as they are. And I see that a whole lot is that people sort of, again, maybe think their marriage is fine. And it is fine. But then they go into these spaces and they meet these people that sort of, and I will tell you, this happens a lot on podcasts. I know you guys have had people say this to you. It's like, oh, I wish we could communicate and have the kind of marriage that you guys do. And that means they're negatively sort of comparing their own communication and their own marriage to yours. They're hearing you once a month on a podcast. Again, they're not following you guys to So I think that, again, it's incomplete information that we make a negative judgment about how our relationship is working, how our relational rules and limits are set. Well, we have all these rules and limits and they don't have any. That's obviously bad. You know, they're exploring more of a moresome type idea over here. We aren't doing that. Are we behind in this game that everyone is kind of playing and we're not playing the same game? Those kinds of conversations happen with couples. and I watch it and other coaches watch it and every once in a while other couples will hear couples talk like that because again there's this whole are we enough where do we fit in the tribe you know sometimes we got a thing could be considered a tribe it's a group of people well of course the couples in that group are comparing themselves and their relationships and their interactions with others yeah it's just and we've actually tried to turn that around so it's a positive you know it's the 30 days of laundry I Actually, tomorrow's the last day of the 30 days, but what we've done in our community is we've asked some of our members to share themselves outside of the community on our social media accounts and profiles, and not their faces, but their bodies, because there's so much body positivity in that movement and inside of our community that sometimes we don't get a good view. If you're talking about OnlyFans, if you're talking about Victoria's secret ads, if you're talking about desire ads, you know, you see a certain type of body. And, you know, to know that there are people that look like you that do this and enjoy it, you know, sometimes we allow our perception of what kind of a body we have to have in order to get into this to begin with. And a lot of people will say to us in an email, well, you know, I want to, we want to get into the lifestyle, but we're going to wait a year because we need to lose weight or we need to do that. And it's really not the right perception because there are people inside and engaging in the lifestyle now and enjoying each other that are just most of us, all of us are not perfect. I mean, we all look at ourselves and we have these imperfections that we see. And I think the more that we share our quote unquote imperfections with others, then others say, oh, well, she's not, she doesn't. look perfect or now that i see him in that way they they look normal like we do so it's it's people willing to share themselves openly like this that helps others to really change the reality of the perception when it makes the comparison healthier i mean because you're now you're comparing and you're finding i'm kind of on equal footing here you've got real data versus the imaginary data in your brain yes definitely yes and i think also something that i would say is that is true about where your relationship is. I think people also could easily write you and say, you know, wow, I'd really love to explore some sort of form of non-monogamy, but I don't know if our marriage is as good as yours. I don't know if we communicate as well as you do. Well, you know what? You guys may not have communicated this well if they'd met you 12 years ago before you guys had started what you're already doing. So I think sometimes people don't realize the growth and the strength that can come from going through And so they'll feel hesitant to want to join it because they're like, well, I'm not good enough yet. We're not good enough. We're not strong enough to be in the space. Maybe you are. And maybe even if you aren't, the space could help grow you up. And so I think that that's true as well. I think sometimes people forget that, I mean, we're on episode 154 and it's taken us, well, 13 years in the lifestyle to get here. And one thing Mr. Jones and I try to do is we try to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly, because it is not all good. I mean, our marriage is not all good, and our lifestyle journey is not all good. Now, it evens out, and we definitely are having an amazing time, and our marriage is definitely stronger for it. But that strength has come with a lot of work. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so another area we see this, and this is, I think, to be honest, the area where it hurts people and scares people the most, which always kind of blows my mind a little bit as a coach, but that is this area of once you get into a space where you are engaging in sexual play and you are seeing other people engage in sexual play, or you are with someone and your husband or your wife is with someone else in the same space as you, you are getting this viewpoint of your partner with someone that you have never had before. And let me tell you, the comparison that is going to happen in that moment is unlike any comparison that you have ever had to face or have So I think what happens with people is, A, they're not quite, they don't really expect that it's going to be that way. But B, again, this is where negatively comparing things can really, really hurt you. And so I can't tell you the number of couples that have talked to me about or have had conversations in front of me, well, I never heard you make that kind of noise with me before. I've never seen you do that move with me before. I never have, you definitely were enjoying that more than you've ever enjoyed anything with me. I don't do that. I haven't ever done that. You've never done that. It is a constant bringing up of difference of what is and what isn't and what has been and what hasn't been. And again, we instantly make it mean a bigger deal or mean more. You know, again, I've had couples sit in front of me where, you know, one of the partners was in tears about something that they had seen their partner do with someone else. And they had made mean this like, well, you're going to leave me because this person is doing this thing you've always wanted and I've never done it. and now you're getting this one thing you want and then that's it like we just over inflate the importance of some of these things and it is just really easy to put yourself in the space where especially something you've never seen and your brain doesn't really have a gateway for seeing suddenly is in front of you wow you're going to instantly be comparing yourself and your performance to someone else's performance in the same room yeah i've had that experience prior to the lifestyle but it was a bowl of ice cream that i was jealous of Mrs. Jones was making these noises. And I thought, well, maybe she's got a sex toy, you know, under the covers there. But no, she was eating a bowl of ice cream. And actually, it was a dub bar. It was a dub bar. But it was one dub bar in my whole life. And I will never, ever live it down. But whatever makes you happy, Mrs. Jones. I know, right? I know. I think that, like, I've noticed things in the bedroom. Like, for example, I'm not a tall person. And Mr. Jones is. So sometimes that just physical difference makes certain positions practically impossible for us. You know, so when he's with a taller woman and he can, like, they can do some moves that he and I can't do, I'm like, dang, there is no physical way I can do that. It isn't a skill set I don't have or whatever, but it can still, like, mess with your mind. But we're at the point now where we can laugh about it. I'm like, dang, I hope you had fun with that because, you know, she's got 10 inches that I don't have. or something like that. But those types of comparisons can sometimes be laughable when you get out of the moment because it's impossible. Yes, absolutely. And it's not anything you're ever going to be able to achieve. So it makes it even harder for your brain to compare yourself with something you can't even achieve. Absolutely. I mean, the unattainable is always going to feel like a loss. I'm never going to be able to do that or I'm never going to want to do that. So obviously, I'm just going to put my cards in, fold the game. I've lost. It's over. Game over. Sorry. And then I can speak for most of the men out there. When it comes to sexual performance, it's me comparing myself to the other guy. You know, whether it's he's not even winded, or he wants to go again, and I'm not ready, or he has an erection and I haven't quite got one yet, or he's longer than I am. You know, we make these observations as guys, and we instantly translate that over. that must mean that what he does is better than what I do. And so it takes a while to get in, keep to put yourself in that environment where you've retrained yourself and you realize over a period of time that that's not the case. Yeah, absolutely. And it's just, it's such a hard brain activity to stop this, you know, to try to catch this and do this. And so I think one small area, too, I'll mention before we move on to actually the tools. of the skills that I really want to talk to people about before we close and help them feel like there's hope for this really hard thing we all do is I do think that people also look around with other people once they're in the lifestyle and can judge other people's success or their journeys against their own. So suddenly it's like, well, these people are going out every weekend. These people obviously have made so many new sexy friends. These people are going to all of these events or they live in an area of the country where they can have a lot more success than I have. And so I think people can also negatively compare just their journey to someone else's journey. You know, we've talked about our bodies and our relationship and our sexual skills. And sometimes it's like, well, the path I'm on doesn't look as great or doesn't feel as great as these people's or it doesn't feel as successful. So obviously, I'm failing. You know, obviously, we're bad lifestylers, because we haven't met 10 new friends, or we haven't been to six new events, or we've only been to Desire one time. And these people are going every month. And so I think it's really, again, and just another place where we can be hard on ourselves and we can negatively harm ourselves because we are comparing, again, apples to orangutans. It's just not the same. We don't live in the same environment. Maybe we have kids still at home and these people are empty nesters or they have unlimited resources and we're still working to build our business. I mean, there's so many factors that we don't know. And so it's just such a hard place to be to compare success, you know, in an adventure from one person to another. Yeah, and we find that a lot with people who listen to us. On one hand, a lot of people say, you guys are really relevant. You know, you have same similar relationship, similar point in life, you know, same, you argue about the same things we argue about. But on the other hand, we also get people who think they have to be like the Joneses, or they have to do it like the Joneses, or the, you know, they have this idea that we're perfect. And when that's, that's not the case. So yeah, comparing Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And of course, there's lots of other podcasts. There's lots of other people in the media, and there's so many things out there that people are comparing themselves to. And again, there's no limit of people that are portraying success. I think you guys do do a wonderful job of the good and the bad. You're so balanced, and you're so honest. But there is a lot of content out there that's just win. And they're just showing the fun and the sexy, and they're just telling the sexy stories. And that can really cause people, who think that they're doing it wrong when they struggle. And a lot of times people will come see me or people come see their coaches and they're just like, we're just terrible at this because we've never we've only met one person. And I'm like, yeah, you're just a normal person. This is a really hard hobby to be in. It's very difficult. Everyone is not knocking a home run out of the park three times a night, even if you're seeing that again in media and in content. So, you know, just a word to people like don't believe every every single thing that you see on TikTok or Instagram. or, you know, even in communities, and don't compare that to your reality. Don't, you know, don't compare somebody's highlight reel to your reality is a good, a good practice no matter how we move forward talking about it. For sure. And you're never getting the whole story. No. You know, you're hearing one couple's perspective, you know. Absolutely. Okay, so we're at the money shot here. This is where Kel's going to tell us how we can fix all of this. Well, you know what? I'm going to tell you, I really thought about, I think I have three really good tools or, are things to think about to help people. Because I feel like this is such a hard thing. And I think we've really shown how we struggle with it. And I know so many people struggle with it. So I really brought my A-game. I was like, okay, here's three things that people can do. And the first thing is just a continuation of what Mrs. Jones shared in the Insecurity Podcast, which is this idea to just decide to stop doing this. You know, at the end of the episode, you guys were like, look, just stop being insecure. Decide. I'm no longer going to let insecurity stop me and hold me back. And I would say the exact same thing for negative We get to decide, in a lot of ways, how we feel. Now, let me explain that from a brain place. When we think a thought, we create an emotion. So, you know, Catherine's talked about this, and I know other people have talked about this idea that we can't always control our feelings. That is completely true. Absolutely. Sometimes we feel a feeling before we even have a rational thought. All of a sudden, I'm flooded with anxiety, and I don't even realize the thought that's creating that. Other times, we start to think a thought and it trickles down to create an emotion in us that we then keep thinking the thought to keep creating, you know, and suddenly we're feeding that emotion. And I think when it comes to comparison, we have an opportunity to catch ourselves feeling bad and then to realize with some self-awareness that we are creating a negative comparison with someone else. We are judging ourselves very harshly, our reality, to their, again, highlight reel. And to just say, I am not going to do that. I am not going to be victim to this brain game that my brain is trying to play with me right now. It isn't serving me. It's keeping me from being present. It's blocking connection with people who love me. And I am going to have control over these thoughts. And that will help us have more control over our feelings. And that is just, that is a thought management, a thought work tool that people could use for anyhow. But it is especially helpful when we are in the thought loop of negative comparison. And the thing that I was thinking about afterwards, when Mrs. Jones mentioned that, we talked about just deciding. I'm going to, like, compare that to a court case. I mean, you're presented evidence, and incident after incident, and people that you've been with, and people who love you and have been with you, people who tell you you're beautiful, people, There comes a point in time where you get enough evidence, where you're convicted. The jury says, you are an attractive person. And once you have that much evidence, it's a little bit easier to say, you know what, I've decided that I'm not, the statute of limitations has run out on this. I am going to go along with the fact that so many people have presented me with this evidence. And I think after a while, it becomes a little bit easier to just decide, I'm not going to let that part of my brain convince me of anything otherwise because I have all these other inputs from all these different sources. And it's easier for me to just go ahead and decide to believe that. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that actually springs into the next skill or tool that I think is really is powerful. And I walk this through with couples all of the time, especially that couple that comes to me and one person is so convinced. You know, if I could go back six years and talk to Mrs. Jones when she came in and told you, that you were definitely going to leave her for this other person because she was taller and more beautiful or whatever, you know, Miss Jones was feeling. I think what we actually need is some evidence that that's not true. We need, we do sort of need an argument to these negative thoughts, an argument to this negative comparison that we can sort of look back on and we can remind ourselves of what, like you said, Mr. Jones, we've already decided. There's enough evidence that I am loved and valued. And by the way, here it is. And so I often will urge couples to create something that I call the love me list. And it is a really simple but really powerful work to do. And I think it's something that every couple should actually have for themselves about their relationship, whether they are ever in non-monogamy or not. But it really looks like this. What I urge couples to do is to create a list. And it's sort of going back to when we were children and we would pull the, you know, the petals off of a flower. He loves me. He loves me not. He loves me not. Well, instead, we're just doing, he loves me, he loves me, over and over again. And what we're doing is we're creating a list or a body of evidence, Mr. Jones, of all of the ways that I am so incredibly unique. What are the things that no one compares to me that I do, that I show up and I am in this relationship? And so, you know, for couples, it's funny, that's going to very rarely be anything about their beauty. you know what they look like but it's going to be these things like well i'm the only person in the world that's ever going to raise these kids with this person that's going to co-parent and love these humans as much as he loves those humans i'm going to be the only person that's going to have this book of history together where we have lived through thing after thing and at this point we've all lived through historical event after historical event after historical event together and we have all of those memories i am the only person who is going to be my mother-in-law's favorite and be able to do this baking thing that she loves every Christmas and I always show up and she asks for it. I am the only person that's going to laugh at this specific inside joke that we share and no one else would ever get. I'm the best, you know, sidekick when he goes out and tells a story and I always add the funny parts that make him look good. I am the person that's going to soothe him in this way when he's really struggling that no one else is going to get. You know, there are so many incredible individual roles that we wear with the people that we love. that no one could ever show up and do. And when we make that list, I think that what happens is when there are so many irreplaceable and incomparable things and we write them down, suddenly, like you said, Mr. Jones, we have this body of evidence that is really, really powerful to counter those ugly, harsh, negative comparing thoughts when they come. And I just think that is a beautiful exercise. It's a really meaningful thing that people can do. And I always tell people, I'm like, you write it yourself. about yourself first. So I want you to think about all of the things that you do and only you can do and the ways you're special and all the little things that people have written. You know, I'm the only one that knows where he puts his keys down every day because every single day he comes home and he's looking for him and I always find them for him and he'd be lost without me without that. And then I always challenge them to show it to their partner, which is always lovely. But then I let them allow their partner to add the dozen things that you never thought of that they totally believe is just irreplaceable. in you. And suddenly, I think you have such a beautiful, again, evidence box that I tell people, keep it on your phone. Have that list with you in your notes. And if you go to Desire or you go to RM or you go wherever, you go to the club and you start to feel a little bit comparison, pull that baby out and read it to yourself. It's amazing how much security that will give you and how much that'll kind of bolster your confidence and go, yeah, you know what, maybe she is four inches taller than me and looks great in that dress. But she'd never laugh at this joke the way I would. And you sort of show up differently and it gives you a perspective that's just real. And I just think it's a really, really great skill. I mean, that is so beautiful because that's really what relationship is about. It's about all the little things, just building each other up. And it's not, you know, you don't have to like have a cape and come in and save the day. You just have to be there every single day. Yeah. And a couple of things that come to mind is she leaves me little gifts in the back. every night, her Kleenex. Or my sock. But it's warm out now and I don't wear socks to bed anymore. But seriously, though, when I think of the people that we've been with intimately in the lifestyle, we've done that together. Yes, sure, I was attracted to the woman I had to be, but we've done this together. We did that. This lifestyle journey, we've shared together. We laugh about the fun we've had and the funny things, and we commiserate over the mistakes that we've made. And, you know, even if something goes well with me and not with her, we've been through all of that or vice versa. So we're to the point where we can look back and say, look at this, what we did with our relationship and with our marriage that we did with other people. And we can high-five ourselves together. Like, you know, even though I had sex with somebody else, she was there with me. Like, we did that together. Absolutely. I'll also tell you, one of the things that's on my list is the hard times that, you know, my husband and I have overcome. You know, I think when you look through and you go through this valley and you go, wow, this was a really, really rough time. And it was really rocky and it was really shaky. But we climbed out of that together. And we learned about each other. And man, we maybe made some breaks, but we patched those up so much stronger than they were before. And I would never give that up. I would never, you know, replace. It's irreplaceable the strength and the way that we have transitioned from this really hard to this really beautiful. And those are moments that no one, again, that is, you know, really skilled in the bedroom or super flexible and can put her legs behind her head and turn backwards can take away. And again, it's not that our brains are crazy for looking at those momentary things. It's natural. It's normal. It's having this strong foundational belief. in the strength and the goodness of yourself, the value of yourself, what you bring to your relationship, but also just the strength and longevity of your own relationship. It's just a powerful thing to undo comparison. You know, to go back to like the title of this episode, why comparison being the thief of joy, like the first time I heard that wasn't Teddy Roosevelt. It was during COVID. I signed up for like an online yoga class because the gym was closed. And the yoga instructor said that one day. And what she was referring to is, you know, it was like a beginner class that I was taking because I had never done yoga before. And she said, don't compare yourself to somebody that's skinny. And she said, and don't compare yourself to me. She said, compare yourself to you. If this class makes you a little bit stronger next week than you were this week, that's the comparison you want to make. You know, use comparison to yourself to make sure that you're making progress. And if you're not, then that's motivation. That's a healthy comparison to keep you moving forward. Absolutely. And I think when we think about this idea of comparison being the thief of joy, I think the goal of all of this and for people listening is I don't want that to take away the joy of being in the lifestyle. There's a lot of it here. There's a lot of it in non-monogamy. It's everywhere. It's pervasive. there's just so many opportunities to see things and to feel things but to Mr. Jones point there's so much beauty and so much connectedness and so much strength and so much trailblazing that we can do as couples in this space that if you let comparison knock you out of the game you know or take away the joy of it you're gonna miss so much so yes absolutely I think it's a huge thing to lose your brain and your mind's power of searching for better where it really matters which is with me yeah where it really matters which is my relationship in the things that I can make better. And I think as we talk about this last tool that I think is so important, I think we'll jump off that, Mrs. Jones, because what I want to say is sometimes when we feel comparison, we can also feel a big dose of envy. And I always tell people, envy is a fantastic emotion. Envy is an emotion that is a driving action-oriented emotion. So again, the difference between envy and jealousy is vast. Jealousy is a scary, hard emotion. It doesn't mean it's bad, but it's a difficult one. It's a tough one. And jealousy is really fear-based. It's, I need to feel less afraid, so I need to stop you from doing this, or I need to take this away from you so that I don't feel bad anymore. Envy is not like that at all. Envy is an emotion that says, I see you doing this thing, and I want it to. I see you experiencing this moment, and I want to have that too. In terms of positive comparison, I see this person and wow, they are incredibly well versed and they've read a lot of books and they know a lot of things. Well, I could do that too. I could go and invest my nights instead of on TikTok. I could pick up a book. I could go to the library. Wow, look at this beautiful, you know, gentleman. He is in such good shape. You know what? It's probably time I get out of my lazy boy and I start walking in the evenings and get my body moving again. Envy is an incredible thing if we use it for good. If we see others that are having something or doing something or have achieved something. They have a relational ease and a comfortability and communication that my partner and I don't have. I have this opportunity to go to my partner, not in a shaming or blaming. You never talk to me that way. You never ask about my day the way Bob asks Sue about her day. But instead, in this really vulnerable requesting way, hey, I noticed today that Bob and Sue have this really great banter of asking each other's questions. even in front of us when they're not sure about something. I'd love us to learn to do that. I'd love us to get more curious about each other. The same exact thing I will tell you from personal experience. I have been the person that saw my husband with another woman and saw an incredible amount of passion and connection and really investing in that time. And instead of leaving that experience crying and poor, poor me and why don't you ever do that for me, I took it as this huge opportunity to go to him. this beautiful conversation a few years ago. And I said, hey, I think we need to get back to more of that with us. I think we need to come to a place where I was sitting there and going, I want your attention like that. I want to have some uninterrupted time of passion with you like that. And we've just gotten into the rut of like, hey, there's a kid and there's another kid and we need to do this. And that had fallen away. And by seeing him be that way with someone else, I could ask for what I wanted. And if I had not felt envy, if I had not felt that pull of, I want that too. I wouldn't have asked for that. And it wouldn't have really transformed and really changed some things that really kind of got us back on track and made this amazing thing more prevalent in our relationship. And I just had to ask. I had to use Envy for what it's for, which is urging me to speak up and ask for what I see that I want. And I think people sometimes feel envy and they stuff it away because they don't know that they have permission or even have an obligation to themselves to use it that way. that also having a tribe of friends, whether it's a community or whether it's a core group of friends that share similar battle scars and stories about how they were motivated by, you know, other people also makes us feel like it's possible for us. And we go, oh my gosh, you mean you felt this way or you used to be this and now you're that. So being able to share that with other people, not just listening to our partner, not just listening to a about it, but to have real inputs in our life that we can look at and tangibly see and talk to and say, my gosh, if she did that or if he did that, that's motivating me to do it too. And they're encouraging me to do the same thing. So I feel like I don't have to do it by myself. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So I think, again, the message of all of this is comparison is going to happen. It's hardwired into us. We can't get away from it. I think what we get to do is catch it. when we're looping in a negative way. You know, we get to see where it's creating unrealistic expectation or it's distorting our view of ourselves or our partner. And we get to choose to stop that loop. And we get to choose to kind of slow that down. We can choose not to make assumptions about the people that we're with or the people that we love. And we can instead use that for good. You know, like Mrs. Jones said, we can say, hey, how do I want to judge me versus me? Comparing me today to me in a year from now. Who do I want to be? And how do I get there? It's a beautiful way to use this skill. And I think if more people will stop the negative and start to move over to the positive, they'll just be happier. And again, they'll have a lot more joy in their lives. As much as we would like to say we don't compare ourselves, we still do. But it is getting easier to recognize it, to recognize the feeling that I'm feeling because of that comparison, and then to check myself and say, wait a minute, I know better than this. Well, and thank you for explaining to us, like, this is hardwired in and this used to be a survival skill. So it's not a weakness in us. It's just naturally ingrained. And we just have to, like, regulate it and acknowledge it, I guess. Absolutely. Use it for good and catch it when it's trying to take you a bad place, for sure. All right. So before we let you go, what's going on with Expansive Connection? What do you guys have coming up that people need to be aware of? And how can they contact you and find out more? Absolutely. Well, a couple of things that we have going on right now is our next Couples Retreat has been announced, and it is going to be one that is very, very unique. Catherine and Dr. Mitch are going to be leading it in Arizona, September 16th through the 20th of this year, 2026. And it's going to be really great. It's called Hers, His, Us, a Couples Retreat. And there's two houses that the amazing Cheryl from Devious Dragonfly has procured for us to use. And what's going to happen, is it's actually going to be a men's and a ladies' retreat with couples. So we are going to take these amazing couples. During the day, we are going to have the ladies in one house and the men in another house. And they are going to work on gendered work with other women and with other men. You know, Dr. Mitch and Catherine are going to be leading both. So it's not going to be just men with men and women with women. In terms of teaching, Catherine will go in and work with the men. And of course, Dr. Mitch will come and work with the women. But it's going to be an opportunity for people to do some deep work on themselves. and then bring that work to their relationship. You know, we always say a strong relationship is two strong partners. That is what makes a strong relationship. And so this really, really great retreat is going to be an opportunity for people to do some work on themselves. And then to have that in the evenings, they're going to, you know, we're going to come back together. We're going to have the couples come together. They'll be fun, great dinners. There'll be sexy evening entertainment. There'll be some time for reconnection and sharing what they've learned. But the goal is to become the strongest part of the partnership that I have. I can be as myself. And so I think it's exciting. We're really, really excited about it. If you're interested in doing a couples retreat with us this year, that one in September is a great one to think about. I think there's about four spots left. So you can reach out to us through our website. The other thing we're really excited about is we have started to do some group coaching work. One of the things we care a lot about is making coaching resources affordable. And everybody knows that, you know, coaching and therapy can be really expensive. And so by doing group coaching, it's a way to offer ourselves as coaches to people that I want to do some coaching, but in a more affordable way, and with other people, and with others. You know, it's always great to be able to come to a group and share a struggle or struggles that you want to share and you want to get their feedback, but also have to have a coach's voice there. So I'm right now leading a ladies' group coaching all about boundaries. It's called Boundaries That Change Everything, and it's really focused on how to become stronger in our boundaries, knowing where we need boundaries, knowing where maybe we don't need as many boundaries. And it's really, really fantastic. It started actually today, and it's going to last for seven weeks. And so it's going to be something I'm going to teach again in the fall. So if that's something that you're like, man, I hate I missed out on that, reach out to us. We've got a waiting list going for that. And make sure you sign up for our mailing list because there'll be a lot more group coaching opportunities ahead and on the horizon that we're going to be doing for people. So we're all excited. So your website is expansiveconnection.com, and you can also find Expansive Connection from our website. And also, Expansive Connection has a presence inside of our community. And if you've been thinking about trying our community, now would be a good time to do it. And we've had a lot of people take advantage of the promo code. So if you want to send me an email, mrjones at wegotathing.com, I'm happy to send that to you so you can get inside the community and connect with Expansive Connection that way. All right. Did we cover everything? I think we did. Well, thanks again, Cal. It's always a pleasure. And I say this every podcast and I'm going to say it again. You spoiled us the first time because you and your My husband came and we did a recording in person, so I'm not going to let you keep that in your tickler file that one of these days we're going to get back together and record in person. Absolutely. We would love nothing more than that. It would be wonderful. Thank you so much. All right. We'll take care and we'll see you next time. Hey, this is Jessica. If this episode stirred something in you, curiosity, comfort, or that quiet, I've been looking for this feeling, don't stop here. Go listen to episode 131, Finding Your Tribe and the We Got a Thing community. where the conversations go deeper, the connections get real, and you discover that this journey was never meant to be taken alone. Because if you're listening, chances are you've got a thing. A craving for more honesty, more freedom, and a space where you feel understood without having to justify who you are. And we've got a thing, a thriving community built exactly for like-minded couples and individuals ready to explore, grow, and connect with support that's as deep as the desire that brought you through. here. Head to WeGotAThing.com and come inside because that thing you've been craving is not just a fantasy. It's a real community and we're waiting for you. Follow us on at WeGotAThing on Instagram and X. That's W-E-G-O-T-T-A-T-H-I-N-G for a glimpse into the energy, inspiration, and intention behind everything we do. We'll see you in the next video.