Episode 130: All About 'Swolly' Relationships

Transcript

This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey you teenagers out there, if you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us?

hello everyone i'm mr jones and i'm mrs jones and i'm katherine from expansive connection and we want to welcome you to episode 130 of the we gotta think podcast welcome back friend yeah so good to see you we were just lamenting that we need some sunny pool time because it's been almost a year since we were together in Miami. I know it's been too long. We got to fix that. Indeed. You guys are all tan and Florida-like and I am white-skinned North America mountain April. It's just not fair. They look so good, you guys. I'm jealous. Do you guys know anybody I could talk to about that?

Well, we have a guest room. That's all I'm saying. And a pool. That's right. Yes, we do. And a pool. And we can heat the pool because the pool's still a little chilly down here, but it does have a heater. Well, don't forget about living in the mountains. It would probably feel fantastic to me. Well, that's true. So Catherine, we're talking here like the old friends that we are, but let's take a minute and let you introduce yourself for those who may be listening for the first time. All right. I'm Catherine. I'm the founder of Expansive Connection Coaching.

I'm a licensed therapist and have been in the therapeutic and coaching world for over 20 years now. Seems wild. And I also have been on my own non-monogamous journey with lots of ups and downs and different iterations for, gosh, over 10 years now, 11 years ago is when we first stumbled into this. And so, yeah, I get to talk with people about their ethically non-monogamous relationships as my job. It's just phenomenal and get to teach and go to workshops and retreats and be around this very unique sector of the population that is so committed to their own and their relational growth.

I feel very lucky and always very thankful to you guys for encouraging me and launching my career for after having me on your podcast way back at episode 41. Well, yeah, we are very fortunate that our paths crossed back then. And it's been a pretty wild ride over the past decade or so. I guess it never clicked in my head that we've been in the lifestyle the exact same amount of time because we've been doing this 11 years as well. Wow, right. And I guess for both of us, we didn't get into the quote professional side of it for a little while.

We kept it on our, on the personal side and then yeah, listening to your podcast and reaching out and oh, just two years of twisting your arm. That's true. Actually, you all were very patient. You waited to twist my arm till we got to know each other a little Well, we would twist and then we would back off. Very good. So speaking of personal, catch us up. What's going on with Catherine and then what's going on in expansive connection world right now? Well, I am facing all sorts of AFOLs on a different front.

I always say that the two opportunities to learn that in my mind are the edgiest and push us the most, even when we don't want them to, are ethical non-monogamy, if we choose that, and the other is parenting. So I am getting lots of AFOLs with my 15-year-old daughter having her first boyfriend, first in love. Oh gosh, yes.

It's a lot i mean it's i'm so lucky we have a really great relationship we've always had a very open relationship not in that way talking openly is what i mean with my daughter and and she is talking to me she's talking to me about all the things and for the most part well always that is wonderful and then she walks away and And sometimes I'm like, like, Oh my God, I really wish I didn't hear that. Oh my gosh. I wish I didn't have that mental picture right now. Oh, but it is, it's a lot. It's exciting to watch her, that part of her blossoming and trying to be her mom.

Who's also a therapist without being too much of a therapeutic mom. So, you know, being able to drop seeds about now, let me tell you what codependency means. And this behavior seems a little codependent without her rolling her eyes too hard. And then between that, and then also some of the work I'm doing in my romantic relationship, it's having a lot of uncomfortable mirrors held up to remind me that sometimes I can be a big old control freak.

And how to start to let that go and just let them, speaking of this wonderful podcast by Mel Robbins, to let them be who they're going to be and work on myself. And it's really uncomfortable, you guys. See, this is why you and I like each other so much, the whole control freak thing. Yes. We just went to a teacher conference the other day with our 13-year-old granddaughter, so we thought we were out of this business.

No, this business no no no well you know what i'm talking about then yeah yeah it sounds like we really really need to catch up yes indeed indeed um and then on the professional front much more fun i mean not more fun uh more in my control shall we say um the things i'm really excited about in our, we're launching a peer facilitated men's group called Masculinity Matters. And just I am lit up about this. I have some male clients that have done a lot of growing through men's work and through their own personal journey and diving deep into knowing themselves.

And they have inspired me to get men together in a zoom circle if you will and work to push each other on what masculinity means to them where they've gotten their notions of it what they want to keep what they want to let go what they want to get more of to be their own unique you know expression of masculinity and I'm really excited about that The The other thing that's exciting, I mentioned this, I think last time is I've been putting a lot of energy toward participating in and leading retreats.

I love that I can see non-monogamous people from anywhere in the world over this amazing Zoom or Google Meet platform, but boy, I miss seeing people in person and working with them them so kell and i have been working on in-person retreats we just had our first couples retreat and it was wonderful so successful that we've already planned four more one for september of this year one for february of next year and then we're looking into 2027 for some big stuff, maybe a Costa Rica trip. And then I've also been doing some women's retreats, one with monogamous marriage.

Kate and I focused on pleasure, how to get your fears out of the way so you can access your desire and your pleasure. And then also doing one with Naughty Jim about menopause. We're calling that wise and wild and looking at menopause from all sorts of different angles. So I have been really enjoying that work. Yeah. Wow. It sounds like you've got a full schedule and that's exciting, especially I'm a little bit biased, but especially the men's work that you're going to do.

I mean, men have been, I'm not saying that others have neglected us it but our tendency is not to gather in groups with women like women do and and chat with each other so we're really looking forward to that one this word swally um there's been a lot of uh chatter in our community about this um and there's a lot of fear from people who are just getting into the lifestyle about relationships and how they develop in this world of non-monogamy. So we thought this month, well, this was your idea.

So we're going to do a little bit of an introduction here and then turn it over to you to help us try to define, if we can, this squishy thing that we're calling Swally. And so I thought what we would do is we got some feedback from some of our community and maybe we could share a little bit of that first and then turn it over to you to try to help you help us to wrap our minds around this. Absolutely. Well, and your community as always has such wise, insightful sharings, questions, curiosity. But one thing that came through, I wasn't expecting this.

One thing that has come through really loud and clear since we put this Swally idea out to them this month is, boy, do they not want to be labeled. Yeah labeled yeah you might share some of the things that people were saying about that yeah so how so your challenge for the next hour is to define it without labeling it because that is that possible no i don't think so but i think sometimes we can we can talk about why we don't want labeled, which I think has a place.

And so I do think we should let some of your community members' voices be known, and then we can decide how we want to deal with that to still be able to talk about this topic. Yep. Okay, here's the first comment. People like to categorize things and then make rules for those labels, like if you're X, that means you can't do Y, or they force things into categories that don't really fit. They too often pick a label and then let the label dictate the rules. I think non-monogamy is about as specific as it needs to be. Labels are only useful insofar as they help us to communicate.

As soon as the labels start making things less clear or they become inaccurate, they lose their usefulness. I think saying it's a spectrum is probably a great way to describe it. The labels are just points on a spectrum and people exist in between those points. Okay, the next one says, labels are tricky. They can help us at times communicate a basic idea in fewer words. However, people may define terms differently, so using labels can also result in miscommunication and misunderstandings.

Labels fail to capture nuances that may be important when communicating where we are at, what our boundaries are, and what we want. They fail to allow for growth and shifting boundaries and the situational aspects of play and relationships. When communicating with couples, we have found it better to go the long way around, use all the words, and be as clear as possible so there are no misunderstandings or missed expectations going forward. Yes, and then one person said it very simply. I look at labels as a tool to help summarize a complex concept.

Unfortunately, when you summarize, you lose details. So again, brilliant and wise. And I love how this, especially that second one, that person said, we've realized that because of this, this is now what we do. So it gets confusing. So now we've decided it's worth going the long way to be clear to, as I say, over communicate. Use all the words. I love that. Use all the words, go the long way around. And so again, with a lot of respect to those considerations, I do think it can be helpful for us to work on a general definition, like a working definition or category of what this SWALI thing is.

And I just want to say that as we do this, that is in no way negating that, yeah, it's uncomfortable to be put into boxes. For instance, I'll use one that isn't about Swally. The terms, you know, when you're doing a dating profile and it asks for your sexuality, and there's like straight, bi-curious, or bisexual, usually, are the three. And I found that those always made me really uncomfortable because none of that quite fit for me. It doesn't quite fit for me. And so I always wish that there was one that says, it's complicated. Ask me, right?

Because what a great way to start conversation, to reach out and say, wow, you know, we really liked your profile. I am just dying to know what's your, what's your complication about being bi? I want to know. Well, wow, that engages curiosity immediately and lets me explain what the unique version of sexuality I would describe to you. And then boy, can we go off to the races with knowing each other in that way?

Well, let me set you up a little bit before you define this because what we've done is going back to the spectrum uh idea is that swally is a word that the the good thing about it is it's not already defined you know you're you're not taking a word that exists and people have an idea of what it is and then trying to change that swally is a term that is being put together to try to help describe what we're talking about. And when you're looking, taking the word swinger and the word poly, even though those two labels in terms have ideas of their own, they are at different points on the spectrum.

So in a way, it's already combining what is on the spectrum in a word that we have yet to define. So you need to be real careful here because you might find this in Wikipedia under your name. So you're going to get told. Good point. Okay. So when it's, like you say, when it's something that isn't already so defined, we can define it in many ways. And I'm going to just throw it out there in a few different, and we'll see where it lands.

And for the listeners, if there's, if one of these really lands for you, I would encourage you to not necessarily take that and just say, I'm Swally, but instead take the definition and find a way to describe yourself based on that definition, right? Okay. So one of the ways to define it is a term that was used back in the day to describe those who had like poly level relationships, but also did more casual swinger type things.

there can be it can be thought of as couples that identify as swingers but are also open to loving singles and another couple together because if you define polyamory amory meaning love and being able to have multiple loves or loving multiple people and realizing that that doesn't mean that swingers are incapable of loving. And there certainly can be situations where swingers do love other people, but not necessarily feel like they are fully poly, right?

Could be a swinger couple that enjoys the challenges and benefits of exploring and deepening in multiple areas of intimacy with others, which could be, and when I say intimacy, into me see. So they're looking at exploring deepening in understanding people more deeply sexually, mentally, emotionally, even potentially spiritually. This can be different from couples that seek social friendships with others, with individuals or couples that just kind of have that benefit of sexual play and exploration. So we would say like friends with benefits.

So our main relationship with this couple is friendship, but but then we also have this individual but then we also have the benefit of sex and we keep it just there versus opening themselves to an emotional connection or a mental connection so it's squishy i love that word it is a squishy thing to define okay with that said let's talk about the good uh the bad and the in between uh when it comes to not only just understanding this term but some people may be in the midst of it and not realize it yet um until they start bumping into some of these pros and cons. Absolutely.

Or we, we think we know what we want. It's like this. Imagine if you were getting ready to go to a huge buffet and you went in and you're like, I am craving Mexican food. And so you go in and then you're like heading toward the Mexican area of the buffet. And then you pass the Italian and the Greek and the sushi. And you're like, oh my gosh, I didn't even realize I was craving sushi. And what is that Peruvian food? I don't even know if I like it, but now I got to try it. And then meanwhile, you've almost forgotten that you were here for Mexican in the first place.

So we get to come into the smorgasbord of menu options, if you will, of different ways to relate to people sexually, emotionally, mentally, that for most of us that were on the monogamous train and just believing whatever rom-com is on the Hallmark channel next, we had no idea that there were these other ways to explore ourselves, our sexuality, our mental connection, our emotional connection. So yeah, sometimes we don't even know what we want till we're standing there at the buffet and are tempted by it.

I love the whole Peruvian food thing because you know that you have all of these things that you like and you think you're just going to be able to kind of pick and choose, right? But then something like falls in your lap that you had never even considered before. Peruvian chicken is really yummy. Who knew? Right. Okay. So let's look at pros and cons. And I usually like to start with the cons and kind of launch us with the pros. So the first con is ironic because for some of us, this feels like a pro. And for some people, this feels like a con. Thank you.

Um, so one of the, one of the, the first con is ironic because for some of us, this feels like a pro. And for some people, this feels like a con and that is navigating more feelings and potentially deeper feelings that would never be on my con list, but hello, I'm a therapist. Like I'm always going to do that. And I'm lucky I get paid to do that because I love it so much, but there are other people that are like, oh gosh, it's hard enough navigating this with my partner, my primary partner, my wife, my husband, whatever. No, thank you. Right. I just wanted to have sex. Exactly. Exactly.

Another one could be the potential for more conflict. Most of us don't want conflict, Even those of us that realize conflict can create a lot of connection and intimacy in any relationship, none of us goes looking for conflict. And so sometimes as couples open themselves or they find themselves falling toward this swally notion, they definitely realize there's, they notice that there's more conflict. Now, why? They're digging deeper into relationships, into intimacy. They're, as we do that, we're learning more about ourselves.

And as we learn more about ourselves, this can highlight differences from our partner. And a lot of partnerships, a lot of partnerships that would describe themselves as strong, especially really long-term ones where you've kind of grown up together and grown each other up. A lot of times those partnerships are built on the perception, like the perceived security that comes from sameness. Oh, we both love sushi. Oh, we both love to go to Florida for a vacation. We both feel this. We like this. We like that. And the we part is what builds that security.

And so when you learn and dig, learn about yourself and know yourself better, and then you realize you're different than your partner, that can feel really uncomfortable. This pushes a word we call differentiation, which can be a really uncomfortable process. And differentiation is the idea of it's not becoming more independent from your partner, but it is understanding that you are a different person than your partner and that's normal and natural and healthy in a relationship. But if you've built your security on being the same, you see how that could start to feel really scary. Yeah.

And, and there's, I think there's different levels of conflict as well. I mean, first of all, if it's me that's experiencing this feeling, I've got conflict within myself. They're like, wait a minute. I committed to someone at the altar this many years ago, and now I'm thinking of somebody else. Or I committed to this lifestyle because I wanted to have fun and sexy times with other people, and now this is getting serious.

And it scares me because i don't know that i should trust this feeling because the last time i had this feeling i chose a life partner so i've got this conflict within myself about what is this and it and it's scary then the conflict if i were to choose to share that with my partner obviously there's potential potential, high potential for conflict there. And then there's got to be conflict from the partner and hearing where they fit into all of this. It's not, you know, first of all, they're trying to process me being different than who they thought I was.

And then the relationship itself, you know, there's conflict like, wait a minute, now this is feeling threatened, our relationship is feeling threatened. So I don't know how you can't have a conflict when this happens. Absolutely. And again, because most of us have this huge conflict avoidance, because generally, we think that conflict is bad. And if we're fighting, it must mean that our relationship is broken. When we come from that idea, then yes, conflict would feel really scary. The fact of the matter is conflict is important, normal, and necessary in a really healthy adult relationship.

The Gottmans who have collected the most research in couples therapy to date, they have a statistic that 69% of the conflict that couples have is perpetual and never goes away. Like the thing that you've fought about for 30 years or the thing that you're like, I can't believe we're still fighting about this. Oh my God, we're fighting about this again. And people look at that as a bad thing. And it's like, no, that's normal. What determines the outcome of success in the relationship, happiness in the relationship, longevity of the relationship is how you deal with that conflict.

The tools that you use, do you tear each other down or do you use the conflict to get curious? How do you repair with each other? How do you respect yourself and each other through the conflict? So honestly, I don't think it's very realistic to do any kind of ethical non-monogamy without it increasing the conflict in your relationship. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. You need to learn good tools so you do it well. You need to learn to be less freaked out and threatened by it because if we are having conflict, that's uncomfortable enough, right?

And then this Buddhist saying of don't shoot yourself with the second arrow. So if you're uncomfortable having a fight and then you're putting the meaning that having a fight means your relationship's broken, now you've shot yourself twice and you're twice as hurt and less resource to be able to handle the conflict and get good things out of the conflict. Right. So let's get back to differences. As somebody smartly said one time in a podcast, different doesn't necessarily mean better. It just means different. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

So some of the cons can be, it can feel like a con when we have lots of differences that come up because of this. So again, if we perceive different as bad, until we get over that, we are going to be extra challenged when differences come up, such as what each person considers intimate. Now keep in mind, you know this. When I say intimate, I am not talking about sex. Into me see that level of inner circle that we share with another person. So what one person considers intimate may not be the other.

For instance, when my husband and I were starting to open up to more emotional connections with others, he was really freaked out about the idea that I wanted to sleep beside, not have sex with, but sleep beside my boyfriend. And I was really surprised by this. And we realized that we had a difference in how intimate we felt that was. To me, that wasn't something that intimate. It was just more of a convenience thing. But for him, he's like, oh my God, what if I fart out loud in my sleep? What if I drool? What if I, I couldn't do that beside anybody but you. And I didn't have that fear.

It didn't feel as intimate to me. Also differences in what you want to keep monogamous. So even if you are ethically non monogamous you are it is okay and i think frankly encouraged to still have parts of your relationship that feel sacred and monogamous to you now of course if that's if you if you want to have a hierarchical relationship then i do i mean not everybody wants to have that but most of your listeners and the people in your community are more on that on board with that so deciding what want to have monogamous.

Is it a certain type of, a lot of times we start with a certain type of sex, but then, you know, do, are there certain restaurants? Are there certain rituals? Are there certain holidays? Are there certain pet names? Things like that. Again, the preference is about hierarchy. One of you may want to very much keep the hierarchical nature of your relationship, and the other one might say, I don't really think it's right to have one person be more priority to me than another. You can see how that could start some really interesting conversations, right?

Differences in wants and and what each is comfortable with as far as like i said sexual acts um what kind of non-sexualized physical touch like what kinds of cuddles that might feel iffy to one person not the other um the types and the mediums of communication text versus call versus facetime um overnight trips with or without your primary partner. So whether you do that all together, or if you separate off, different types of exploration. And that could be from hobbies to sex to whatever. The sexual health expectations.

If one of you is saying like, well, I feel like I really trust this person. And think it's fine to not use condoms. And the other one's like, oh, hell no. Well, that's a really big difference to navigate. The gifts that you might give to people, how much money you spend on gifts or travel, any special places, acts, hobbies, gestures, as I said, pet names, things like that. yeah.

And not having this list ahead of time, like I was saying before, and it's funny, Catherine, because as you were ticking through these differences, I kept thinking of either personal experiences or friends that have shared things or emails that we have gotten from listeners where pretty much people have run into all of these things. And I think the biggest thing is that it comes out of the blue. You know, it's not like one person, just like you were saying about your husband, it would never enter your mind because you had a predefined definition or an idea of what it was.

And so I think the good thing about listing things like this is that hopefully it's going to give people a little bit of a heads up that it's not just the feelings that you might have. It's how you're going to respond to those feelings that are potentially a landmine of things that you're going to have to talk through, and you can't possibly think of them all at one time. So what happens is they're spread over a period of time as these things come about, and probably reinforces some fears or some biases in some people too.

See, another thing, another reason I don't't want to do this or another reason that I feel uncomfortable about this. Absolutely. And so you're right.

I mean, that's one of the reasons that I like to have long lists to tick through like we did with the flavors of jealousy, because while it certainly isn't an exhaustive list, if you realize that there are all these different places that have tripped people up or have been landmines when you hit one you don't have to make more meaning about it than necessary like you know if gifts is where you really get choked up and the other person is about you know sexual health expectations one is not more important than the other it's just what feel what what hits you what what for whatever reason that's a issue for you.

And then we just, again, we don't have to hit ourselves with a second arrow. We can just get to it. And that's what I did with that conversation about, about sleeping beside my boyfriend. It was like, okay, so I mean, there's nothing wrong with him having an issue with that. And there's nothing wrong with me not having an issue about it. Let's get curious about what it is because then we can better understand why that might feel threatening and come up with a creative solution together. Right. All of those cons are really based on the fear of difference.

So all of those cons can be explored with healthy curiosity and excitement and desire to find consensus when we're not so scared of being different. So that is going to cue us up for next month when Kel comes on and her topic is how our differences can make our relationship stronger. She and I have been doing a lot of work about differences and how to help couples navigate that. That was the whole theme of our last of our in-person couples retreat.

And even people that have been married for 50 years, we had a couple that are 50 years married and they're still trying to navigate their differences. Wow. Yeah. It's a normal part of it. So that, I don't know if that's, if that's depressing or if that's inspiring to know that honey, there, there's no end in sight to this. We're always going to be learning new things about our differences because you and I have quite a few of them, too.

Well, I also think that, again, for many of us that were in relationships that we grew up in, if we based our security on how many things were the same, and we really noticed what was the same, sometimes we don't even start to navigate or look at these differences until later in life, or we have an experience like non-monogamy that shows those. And then all of a sudden, we're like, whoa, we really are more different than we thought we were. And for me, it's all about, there's nothing wrong with that. Don't get caught up and think that this is a sign that you're broken.

This is just the exciting possibility of differentiation. And once you're differentiated into the idea of really knowing that you're each your own person who chooses to be in an interdependent relationship with this other person, there is a depth of love and security that's there because of choice, not need, or not just because we're the same. Okay, there has to be some pros to go along with those cons, right? Yes, of course. So you'll notice that, remember what I said the first one of the cons is navigating more feelings and potentially deeper ones.

Well, of course, I put that as the number one pro navigating more feelings and the potential deeper ones, because, yay, that can be so fun for some of us feelings nerds. You and your AFOLs. That's right. Another potential benefit is the opportunity for extra support and relationships with multiple dynamics. So what I mean by extra support is, um, I think I mentioned this in the last one, a couple that I worked with where, um, they, they just, they didn't necessarily have a ton of connection over, over like intellectual matters.

And I don't mean that my, like one is smart and one wasn't, but what one person really loved to nerd out on, his wife was like, that is boring as can be. And so he has the opportunity if he wanted to have a deeper relationship with somebody where he could really connect with that other person on that intellectual pursuit. And so there's this extra support that can make him feel really seen and buoyed up and can actually make his wife kind of be like, whew, have at it. Yeah, I think I've experienced that before. Because Mrs. Jones is more obviously as a mathematician and a numbers person.

And, you know, I can put up with that at the dinner table a little bit before I start to doze off. When I start talking about spreadsheets with somebody in the desire pool, I kind of lose him. He'll wander off to get a drink and then he doesn't come back right away.

But I'm having a fascinating conversation with a really hot naked guy in a pool in mexico about spreadsheets like what is wrong with that i was gonna say that sounds like mrs jones heaven heaven in a moment right there it's nice to have a stunt double filled to grab and pull into my shoes for a minute while i step away a stunt double for those dangerous spreadsheets um the other way that the extra support can be there is you know if you if you do enter into relationships with individuals or another couple that has extra depth and emotion and intellectual and even spiritual pursuits when when life is hard, you've got extra people that support you in that really deep and loving way.

And life is tough, and we can get really insulated and siloed in the way our society is built now. And so having that kind of web of community around us at that deeper, more intimate level can feel really great. Also, that idea of different types of dynamics in the relationship, again, like some people liking to do different things together can take pressure off. Different dynamics can show us things about ourselves or our relationship that we wouldn't have noticed before.

So that can be pretty exciting to see what we can harvest from those multiple dynamics dynamics and this probably is a good time to to as you're talking about community and support you know inside of our community we have a space called more sums again another word like swally and that's where couples go or individuals go in there and peek around the corner and stand in the corner and listen to other people talk about what they're going through, what they're experiencing. And then over time, you say, okay, this is a pretty safe space. I'm not a weirdo.

Or if I am, there's other weirdos in here with me. And so it And so it does, um, when you start to develop a network of friends in this lifestyle, these are the people that you would otherwise not have access to. Or if people who are non, who are not non-monogamous are trying to give you advice, you're like, well, you don't really get it. You know, you don't really know what we're talking about. Exactly, exactly. And I was working with one of the couples of a quad earlier today, and it was an intake. And I think it was the gentleman who said, we don't have a playbook for this.

I mean, we can't look at other movies or read books about it or even really talk. There's so few models for this this. And in some ways I hear that. Yes, for sure. We don't have many models for this. And on the other hand, any of us that have been brave enough to step off the, the typical monogamous path to do something different without a playbook, that's one of the things we're signing up for. And so we do need to have the support of people to be able to bounce ideas.

I mean, I think we should do that in all relationships, but I think this really forces us to do that because we can't just say, well, they did this in the Brady Bunch or whatever. We really are navigating this and figuring this out as we go. So having that extra support in your community of, or the extra support of four people discussing an issue versus just two can really be, really be a benefit. Right. So again, another pro is this Swally or Morsom, however you want to say it is absolutely a push to differentiate.

And then when you do that do that as I said it can push your relationship to a whole nother level of intimacy and I mean that right now when I'm talking about your primary relationship um the as I said how great it feels to be there because you choose to be it's it's really special all right and then learning how to navigate differences, as I said, because now that you realize you have differences, you realize you're going to need to know how to navigate them. And so you're going to learn tools, sometimes the hard way, sometimes they come naturally.

Sometimes you need help from a coach or other people where you get more comfortable at that. So then a difference doesn't feel as scary. It's like, okay, here's the difference. Let's roll up our sleeves and figure out how we're going to handle it. Another thing I love about it is autonomy. And again, for many of us that have relationships that we grew up in, if we get together with somebody really young in our lives, personally, at least, autonomy wasn't a huge goal in our relationship. It was more like we wanted to come together and build something together.

And it felt really good to, to grow together. We didn't put a lot of bookmarks in that, that process for autonomy. And so then here we are, you know are midlife and there can be an itch for autonomy, but I don't want to leave my person. I love my person. I love my life, but I also would like autonomy. This can be a really cool way to start to have autonomy with the benefit of still having that loving, supportive, long-term partnership.

Yeah, I think we're finding as our children are older that we are becoming more autonomous because when you have little earthlings to raise, there's an expectation of being present and being involved with everything that's going going on in family and then you get to a certain point in time when they're hopefully that you know that they're gone or they're more independent let's just say um then you have more time and with that time not only you get time for the two of you but you've got more time you know to be autonomous as an individual and it's something that i think after a while katherine you have to be intentional about because we we forget i mean we we forget what it was like when it was just the two of us before or or just me before you know we we got married that was a long time ago and and so you know we need to understand And I think we've done a pretty good job of that in that how do we want to remake our relationship not remake it like how do we want to evolve it you know how do we want to grow it it's up to us to do that and we can do it any way where the both of us feel comfortable or maybe even a little bit uncomfortable doing right you know i think bringing the swally part into it you know like for example um you know what if you have like a hobby that you really want to explore but your partner's not into it you know and then if if you're if you find like this other couple that you're becoming swally with, and there's somebody in that pair, whether it's the male or the female, that kind of wants to explore that same hobby, it just gives you an opportunity to do that.

And I think that sometimes we're like, let's learn how to play pickleball. Well, Mr. Jones is very naturally athletic. I'm going to have to take pickleball 101, you know, to learn that. And he's probably tired of waiting on me to like agree to do that, you know, where like be autonomous, go out and explore it yourself and that'll be all right. Right. Absolutely. That's a silly example, but I'm just trying to think of like where we are right now. Oh, I don't think that's a silly example at all.

It actually, it jumps me ahead a minute, but I'll say, you know, it can give us another pro is to be met in ways that your partner doesn't particularly like to meet you. So maybe you've never really been inspired or love to do athletic pursuits with, you know, Mr. Golden Boy Jones here that does everything well the first time athletically, maybe that's really not inspired your athletic side. But if you did that with somebody who just brings that goofy beginner's mind to it, you might be really, you might be way more inspired to do athletic things that you ever, than you ever were before.

Another one is Erotic Blueprint, work of Jaya that, so it's a. You can go online and she has you go through these questions where you can realize there are four different, she lays out four different blueprints of what brings, like what excites your erotic side. And then there's a fifth one that's the shapeshifter among all of them. And so I encourage your listeners to check that out. But let's just say, you know, maybe you are sensual and Mr. Jones is sexual and, you know, you all figure out how to make it work. It can be really exciting to go be met by another partner that is also sensual.

And so you all have this like common language of how to enjoy eroticism that's the same and you know you've translated it with your partner but to be able to go and have that with somebody else can be really fun and that can be exciting and again promote some of that autonomy and Mr.

Jones when you were saying that about like not exactly what did you say not defining your relationship now or going back to it's it's esther perel talks about we have many marriages within our marriage and so sometimes you know as our kids are getting older or as they launch or whatever the transition of life we get to decide what this next iteration of our relationship is going to be like.

And if for whatever reason, your personality, the busyness, the way you were raised, autonomy wasn't a big priority in this new stage of your relationship, this is a place where you can explore autonomy without necessarily having to be single again. The last one I'll mention is also a concept from Esther Perel, and that's capstone versus cornerstone relationships. So the way she describes this is your cornerstone relationships are those long-term ones that have grown you up, the ones where you've really become who you are together.

You've wound yourselves around each other to become this person. And because you've done that, you've seen each other's growth every single day. So you can't necessarily step back and be like, wow, this is who Mr. Jones is right now. It's like, it's all woven into who Mr. Jones was at 27 and 37 and 47. And it's all just, that's enough. Okay, thanks. But it's, and it's beautiful. You're the only person in the world that gets to know all of those versions of him wrapped into this one person. And that's beautiful and can't be replicated.

There is also a phenomenal experience of being witnessed and seen as the adult you are right now without all those other versions clouding the vision. And when you can show up in front of someone, they see you for who you have become and they like it. Holy moly. That's heady. It feels so good. We get that in swinging as well, I think. But when you go into that openness for potentially deeper intimacy, they're going to know more parts of you. And so this can be what they call a capstone relationship, where it's more like not the building, like the cornerstone of who you are.

It's like they get to see what you've become, the capstone of the building, if you will. Yeah, and I think when other people look at you in the moment and make an assessment or an observation like that, sometimes as me as the one hearing it, I may be hearing that differently for the first time. I mean, Mrs. Jones has done a great job through our whole relationship saying that she's my biggest cheerleader. And I believe that. And I know that.

But when somebody points something out that they're just seeing for the first time, it's more of that cornerstone moment where maybe I'm realizing that, oh, I guess I am. I didn't even think about that because just like when you're with your kids every day, you don't notice how big they're getting or how smart they're getting or how they're maturing until someone else points it out to you. And then you're like, wow, yeah, I guess I don't notice that because I'm with them every day.

Exactly, exactly that i'll just say you're the terms when someone sees you that way in your entirety you're in the the version you are now that would be the capstone so cornerstone think about is like the corners of the foundation the you know you and mrs jones have a cornerstone relationship because you have you have really built yourselves from the connection that the two of you. And so when you have the opportunity to do Swally, you can get both.

You're still with your cornerstone relationship, that long-term one that's built you, and you get to have that amazing experience of having capstone moments where someone sees you and to have both of those at the same time. You know, many times people don't get that opportunity unless they have to go through the trauma and tragedy of a divorce, where the first deep relationship they have after they've let their cornerstone relationship go, that would be considered a capstone relationship because they're starting their lives together as the capstones that they are.

But in a swally situation, you have the chance to get both at the same time. Yeah, that's definitely a pro. So now that we've gone through pros and cons, let me throw you a little bit of a curveball, Catherine. A while ago, you mentioned, you made a comment in passing about, yeah, but you know you're not broken uh in a perfect world all this sounds good on paper and we're listing out uh pros and cons and we're going to give you tools and ideas and all kinds of illustrations assuming that the relationship at hand is not broken. And let me give you an example of what I want you to respond to.

When Mrs. Jones brought up the whole pickleball thing, I'm going to go back to that analogy. Let's say that she does want to learn how to play pickleball with me, but some other person mentions pickleball, and they've never played before, and I decide that I want to go play pickleball with her. But Mrs. Jones has been asking me. So it's not like Mrs. Jones doesn't have the interest, and that person does.

It's more like, wait a minute, I've been telling you for a long time i want to play pickleball why are you going to go play pickleball with her so that's just a little example of what i want to inject in here is a little bit of reality in as you are beginning to think about this and talk about this as a couple how what what is that What do I have to be be afraid of because i think a lot of us before we even get into the lifestyle we have an idea of our if our relationship is solid or not and we've we've told many people look this will either if you have a good relationship it can make it grow and make it better but if it is slightly broken those are the, the magnifying glasses are going to hit those pieces first.

So what happens in that case when we begin to sense that this is not all above board or this is not all just an unbroken relationship? Right. So first of all, I want to be careful about the word broken because because I don't want it to seem like if you come across those struggles, that it inherently means you're broken. Because something about that feels really fatalistic. I would say, oh, this is pointing out an area that we need to strengthen. This is a place we need to grow. This is a place we need to really put some healing energy toward.

And so if that example came up, I will tell you, I started getting a visceral reaction because you just touched on one of my biggest flavors of jealousy. I think I mentioned this in our first episode together. I can be so generous, but boy, if somebody else is getting something I've always wanted that you weren't giving me, watch out, right? That is going to be really uncomfortable for me.

So if that happens, what, you know, if a couple came to me with that, what I'd, what I'd be doing is like slowing it down and talking about number one, what was the, was the request communicated in a, in a clear way where your partner actually heard it and said no? Or did they think you meant something else? Has it been so long that you've just accepted that they're not going to learn a new sport with you that you haven't asked in 15 years? And now they're 15 years a different person and somebody asked him to play a new sport and they're like, sure.

And you're like, but wait, well, that was a 15 year older version of Mr. Jones, right? We might talk about what is inspiring about this. Sometimes when we have, when we get into an experience where we have some capstone witnessing where somebody sees us in a different way, it can pull up this desire for us to continue to be the best version of ourselves, to really hone the best version of ourselves. Does it suck that our long-term cornerstone relationship partner isn't inspiring us to do that? Yeah, it can really sting and it's really normal.

So oftentimes what I'll say to the person who's, you know, maybe watching that happen, be like, okay, yes, it sucks that you weren't the inspiration for that, but start harvesting the good from it. Like, listen, he's finally interested in being emotionally available and this other woman inspired him to do that. I hate it for you that that didn't happen for you, but now he's learning the skills. You get to get a benefit that this other person inspired. Yeah.

And I like the fact that you, the first thing that you brought up was this doesn't mean anything is broken because as you were walking, talking through that, there are so many different explanations for what could be going on. And, you know, this call the way comes back to, boy, if you're doing this as a couple, it's a lot of work. Yes. And, you know, and we talked about support from friends, but I'm just going to throw it out there, you know, from a group like Expansive Connection as well. I mean, that's what you all do.

And so if it's something that you feel like it's insurmountable, or if you feel like, oh, this means it's the end of my relationship, you know, we may be a little bit overly sensitive or overly dramatic or jump to conclusions where if somebody can say, well, wait a minute, let me give you some perspective here and let's go back and talk. Let's start from the beginning and walk through this. So that was just a good example of And I think that just a good example of how something could be perceived as extremely broken.

But now that we've talked through it, oh, okay, I understand it a little bit better. That makes sense to me. We have a starting point. You know, let's start from there and move forward again. Yes. And to your point, this is hella complicated, hella complexed is going to add so much work to your life. Sometimes that for like me, I mean, I'm a dork. I love that kind of work. So it doesn't even feel as much like work. Cause I love that kind of work.

Um, when like where you are in your life and your relationship could very much depend if you are resourced and have the bandwidth for this much work right and as always it has to come down to a cost benefit ratio did you see mrs jones starting to like salivate when i said that i saw you like you know but sometimes people say like oh it's so complicated and but they'll tell me how much fun they're having and i'll say well that's like complaining that you have to make more, you have to pay more taxes when you got a $50,000 rate.

It's like, of course, you're going to have, there's going to be a cost to a benefit like that. You just have to continue to come back and decide if that's worth it in your situation. Right. Yeah. i i know that before we start to wrap up here that we were going to talk about let's get back to defining a minute we've gone through pros and cons um what is what do we expect what can we expect from this kind of a relationship and and we haven't even talked about new relationship energy. We have, you know, there's so many other things that can be rolled into this.

Like, Catherine, maybe from your experience, and I don't know another word to use, speaking of labels, but the word that comes to my mind is life cycle. Like when I stood at the altar 40 years ago. It's a nice round number, Mr. Jones. The life cycle of a marriage was forever. I mean, we use that word, you know, forever. That doesn't necessarily apply to the quote unquote life cycle of a Swally relationship or any kind of friendship in the lifestyle. So can you talk about that for a minute and what you're seeing? And is there a typical or is everything just atypical?

I would say atypical to answer easily, but one of the two things to consider with that, often it's about how we define the success of a relationship. And so for most of us, when we enter into marriage, we think that the only way to succeed at it is to die together happy. And then for some people, you know, let's say they raise three beautiful kids and then their marriage is not serving them anymore and they get divorced. Some people may say that that's a failed marriage.

And some people may say it was an absolutely successful marriage because we raised three children together and built our life together for 20 years. And that's what we wanted to do. So sometimes we have to be careful about when we say if it worked or if it was successful. I always encourage people to slow down and look at how they define that the other piece is when we are you know indoctrinated into monogamous culture and rom-com culture we without even realizing it as soon as we start to have feels for somebody we jump on a relationship escalatorator. And so we feel this.

And so then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens. And so who drops the L-bomb? When's the first sleepover? When do we first sleep together? When do we start doing hobbies together? When do we do our first trip together? When do we move in together? When do we share a mortgage? When do we have kids? There's this invisible escalator that many of us just get on unconsciously when we're looking for a life partner.

And a lot of the brain chemicals that are happening, our lizard brain, when we are sexually involved with somebody or we start to have emotional feelings for them, can drive us toward that relationship escalator. And we need to remember that that relationship may not fit on the typical trajectory or escalator. And it may, there may never be a point where you go on a vacation with each other. That doesn't mean it's a less important relationship, a failed relationship or something that doesn't matter to you.

It's just, you've got to be comfortable defining it as it is so to answer your question i can't give you a typical life cycle of a swally relationship because it is just so different for everyone okay so how about some advice uh catherine before we go uh we've talked about a lot of things, pros, cons, the unknown, how to label this thing. So what can you tell everyone as just good general advice from your perspective? Sure. And I'll be honest with you, a fair amount of this advice is stuff that I would give people coming into ethical non-monogamy in general.

And so some of you may have already heard this I'll if you're if you're coming into Swally or you're new to it I'll encourage you to not just push it away like oh yeah we looked at that when we first started bring a beginner's mind to this and think about how to apply this differently when you're going to this different shifting into a different dynamic of deepening emotionally with another person. So it sounds similar, but I think if you look at it through different lenses, you can see how it would apply differently. All right. So first one is go slowly.

I know I've said that so many times on your podcast. Remember that new relationship energy in RE is a powerful drug. It hits the same neuropathways as cocaine in our brains. So don't go as fast as you might if you were taking cocaine multiple times a day. When you get that hit of NRE because your person sent you a sexy picture or told you how much they appreciated you, it's like you just took cocaine. So how fast your brain might tell you to go or the decisions it might encourage you to make may not be long-term, sustainable, healthy decisions. I also don't want to vilify NRE. It's amazing.

It feels so good. Enjoy the hell out of it. And put good boundaries around yourself. Remind yourself to slow down. Remind yourself of the perspective that it is a drug. You're just producing it inside of you instead of buying it from some shady drug dealer and worrying about getting pulled over. The other thing that's interesting about NRE is remember that yes yes, it hits hard and it can last, this blew my mind, it can last anywhere from six months to five years depending on the variables.

Variables that keep it lasting longer are things that are inherently going to be part of a Swally relationship. That is, it can keep going longer if there is distance and there are barriers to being with the person all the time. Also, however long you can keep quote real life from creeping in, that will lengthen the time that NRE can be there. Right. So farting in bed is going to make it closer to the six months than the five years.

years true story true story it's funny as you were talking i was just thinking about like some friends of ours that we you know have not seen in a while and and then we'll get together with them and and there is nre still after years absolutely um right so that we naturally have, if there, if it's a long distance relationship, if we can't see each other as often, if there are other people, like if it's a not, if it's, if it's not exclusive, this poly, this swally relationship, then when you're with other, when they're with other people, and then you get that reclamation thing coming back, you know, that can really fuel NRE as well.

The other, another consideration is being prepared to explore and address your codependency. Every couple has some codependency and some form of it, some amount of it. Some couples have a lot of it. Some couples, that is what they have built their foundation on. Kind of that same, we're the same, or we mesh into each other. And that's what makes us feel really solid. Like, well, if he's upset, then I get upset. So we are so close. And you all have heard my coin phrase about codependency. I can't be okay until you're okay. So hurry up and be okay. So I can be okay. Okay.

A lot of couples find a lot of perceived security in that codependence. So as you're deepening these loving connections with others, it's absolutely going to shake things up and show you the places and the ways that you're codependent. And these are often going to become the sore spots as the relationships intensify. So I cannot really imagine a very long lasting swally interaction that doesn't bring up codependency. So be prepared. There's nothing wrong with you. Everybody's got it, but be ready to do some work on it.

And then the last one I'll throw out there is being aware of our unconscious compare and despair. If unchecked, our brain will always assign some sort of judgment as it notices differences in partners. And we want to make sure that we don't make that an unconscious process. The thing is, sometimes when we've been with a partner for a long time, we're so used to them doing something a certain way that when someone else does it different, at first it can feel just because it's different that it's negative.

Or like you were saying with that other example, maybe it's something you've always wished your partner would do and this new person does it. And now you can start to despair at your original partner for never doing it. This is going to happen, but it's really dangerous if it stays in the unconscious realm. If you bring it to the conscious level and you're like, oh, look at my brain trying to decide who's better, who's worse. Your brain will also want to make superlatives, better, worse, best, best and worst. Really work on keeping those superlatives out of it.

It's just, as you said, it doesn't have to be better or worse. It's just different. Yeah. a conversation that you have in your own head, or do you share that with your partner? Both. Certainly have it in your own head first. Also, sometimes it can be helpful to have it with a good friend that you trust or a coach where you can kind of get your shitty first draft out and say it in a really awkward way. And you'll throw throw out superlatives and you might even throw a name or blame or shame in there and then bring it to your partner, but definitely work it out within yourself first.

But just remember like our simplistic brains, if we're not conscious of it, if it stays down in that, that very primal like categorization, it's going to be like more caveman good bad good bad no maybe it's just different right and the and the person i referred to earlier who was very smart who said different doesn't necessarily mean better she also every once in a while says says, I'm sorry I don't do this like her, or I'm sorry my body is not like them. And I'm like, Yuta, would you stop apologizing? You know, just because I enjoyed that part of that person doesn't mean I want that in you.

Remember, you're the one who said difference doesn't mean it's better. Yeah, I know. Remember that? Yeah. And for those of you that can't see these adorable people in front of me, Mr. Jones is very much looking at Mrs. Jones as that wise person who said that and who also can compare herself with despair. Yeah. Yeah. Practice what you preach. I know. Easier said than done. Yeah. All right. Well, you know, I guess as we start to sum this up and then we got a couple of listener questions I want to throw at you, but you know, the things that have stuck out, let's just start with difference.

You know, different doesn't necessarily mean better. You know, and also Catherine slowing down, because I think if you don't intentionally slow down, something is going to slow you down.

And when that something is there to recognize that as a, maybe not a stop sign, but a yield sign or something to say, wait a minute, this needs you know somebody's attention and then being able to define this however you want to define it i mean we talked early about labels um and that you know that that was just a necessary evil as a lot of people commented uh from the community is that you know how're always, for people who don't like labels, we sure do spend a lot of time searching for labels.

You know, it's almost like we want to try to define it ourselves, but we don't necessarily want other people to, you know, to use that term or put us in that box. And then I think, as we were also talking about, when you use a label, the label, the risk is that it becomes outdated or it begins to define I'll see you next time. also talking about when you use a label, the label, the risk is that it becomes outdated or it begins to define what you are or who you are. And as soon as you do that, you've kind of stopped yourself in your tracks.

Well, I'm thinking of because, you know, we started out talking about you have like swinger on one side and polyamorous on the other side, right? So I'm envisioning like this line with this sliding button, you know, that, that, you know, goes from swinger all the way to polyamorous. And I, and I think because Mr. Jones and I like to say we're social sexy, we're already starting at least a third of the way up the scale from swinger to polyamorous, you know and then, and then we make these friendships.

And, and as these relationships with these people deepen, you know, that button just starts sliding more to the right towards the poly.

And then eventually it's going to bump into something, you know, like if it's another couple, there's, there's four of us and, and one of us is going to bump into something that is squishy like you said it makes us feel squishy and uncomfortable and oh shit what are we doing yeah you know so i i like the label thing isn't even like in my brain it's just this button that just keeps like pushing to the right just because that's what relationships naturally do they deepen so how far are we going to let that go right and going slow being intentional coming back to what is your monogamy realizing you can always redefine that but if you if you have you know if let's say every six months or so you kind of have a like state of the union address for your relationship like let's you know do we feel still feel this way is this still what we want is there we are we interested in exploring in this area or that way if you if you take the time to define that then if you hit a bump into something one of the first things you can do is take it back to the latest iteration of what you both agreed is your monogamy does this fit in our relationship code of ethics and if it doesn't we can choose to redefine that code of ethics or it can be a sign to say we might need to pump the brakes here a little bit right right exactly any uh closing thoughts before we answer a couple questions let's jump into the questions all right the first question is what is the best way to approach my partner if i'm having feelings quote unquote for someone else okay so as always slow down really under like i would encourage you to do a lot of self-reflection journaling um you know to a coach, talking to a trusted friend so that you can do your best to have an understanding of what's going on inside of you.

Don't do this for too long. It doesn't feel good to a partner if you're like, well, I've been working on this for three months and just reflecting and nobody wants to hear that that far. But if you start to whoa, I'm having like this, something feels weird. I would encourage you to not go straight to it on your partner, because especially someone like me, who's a verbal processor, the way I start my thought as my tongue wags and my brain works, I wander meander around. And what I come to at the end of that discussion may be 180 degrees different than how I started it.

But if how I started it scared my partner, and now they've flipped, they haven't heard any of the meandering or this final thing of, and I choose you, babe. They just heard the first thing and they're scared to death. And then I'm frustrated because they didn't hear the rest. They didn't hear me. Right. So whether you're a verbal processor or an internal processor, take a little time to do that without dumping it on your partner first, but not too long.

Then as you approach them, I think it's important to know, well, I think anytime we're going into something like this, I've learned I have a partner that wants to know the end before I get into all the minutia of how I got to the end, right? So if I say, I have something I want to tell you, I've been having some feelings that have been a little confusing for me. And first, let me go ahead and skip to the end of the book and say, I choose you. I love you. I want us. You are my primary. I want us to be really clear about what our monogamy is. I want you to know that. That's where we're going.

And it's gotten me thinking about that and made me feel even more sure about that because I've caught myself feeling a little feels for this person and it made me really wonder what does that mean and what do I want and what am I committed to so go ahead and like soothe their you know your partner what's their biggest fear soothe their fear if you can first and then you can get into that exploration space with them. Right. Okay. The next question is, our fear is that one of us will fall in love with someone else and fall out of love with me. Please talk me off the ledge.

Well, first I have to say that that could happen. I would be disingenuous if I said, I'll talk you off the ledge by saying that won't happen. It's like, I hate to hear in movies when parents tell a child, I promise you I'll never die. I promise you I'll always be here. We're saying that so they'll go the fuck to sleep. I get it, but it's not fair. It's not a genuine, you can't know that. And so being able to say something genuine, and I can't tell you that that won't happen. That is a possibility. But I also will say it's a possibility even if you're in a monogamous relationship.

Maybe even more so because if you get a feeling that's uncomfortable, there's a lot of pressure to sweep it under the rug and not talk about it, or you don't learn the tools to talk about it. So I don't think that it's more risky in a non-monogamous situation than in a monogamous situation. But it is a risk all the time. And I cannot give you a false sense of security. But what I will say is it goes back to the podcast that we, makes me go back to the podcast we recorded in Miami about the lifestyle being an adult activity. You might fall in love with somebody. Yeah. And then what?

What are your actions based on that? How does that fit in the lens of your relationship agreements?

how does that fit in your relationship code of ethics how does it fit in your personal code of ethics right and so as long as you're slowing it down and continuing to come back to that then yes they may fall in love and it might be okay or they might start to fall in love and you both might say this is really not what we're wanting we're going to pump the brakes and take some space from these people and and heal the the sadness and the grief that's going to come from letting go of that potential love right yeah so we could um not to rehash that episode but it we do need to go refer you back to that i wish i had the episode number uh but it's the lifestyles and adult activity and we Thank you.

But we do need to go refer you back to that. And I wish I had the episode number. But it's the Lifestyles and Adult Activity. And we did talk a lot about that. Do you want to share? I know earlier, Catherine, you shared the Erotic Blueprint. Did you want to say a little bit more about that and any other resources that you might have?

I'll just, I'll drop the, we can drop the Erotic Bl um website and quiz into the show notes they have a a free quiz but then she also offers some courses and i highly recommend if this is a an interesting topic if you notice that your sexual incompatibility might actually be more about your erotic incompatibility this could be a really juicy place for you to go And I highly recommend you exploring that. Another thing I'll put in there is a podcast. It's an old one with sex nerd, Sandra, and she interviews Tammy Nelson. And she, Tammy Nelson is the author of The New Monogamy.

And it's written mostly for people who have, are coming back off of affairs, but But Dr. Nelson also works a lot with non-monogamous people. And I think this podcast does a really good job of helping us continue to define what is our monogamy, having explicit conversations about that. She even, and I can share this, she'll share this with you, or I can, a seven page document with all sorts of questions to get you talking about what is your monogamy that can be really great. So those are the ones that come off the top of my head.

And if I think of something else, I'll throw them in the show notes for people because I certainly love to share resources. Okay, perfect. And as we mentioned earlier, Kel from Expansive Connection is going to be with us next month to talk about differences again, how our differences can make our relationships better. And now if people want to find Expansive Connection, Catherine, how can they find you? We encourage you to go to the spicy side of our website. We have the like forward facing one for a couple of our coaches who aren't out in their communities.

But the fun one is expansiveconnection.com slash ENM for ethical non-monogamy. And there you'll find you can join our mailing list. If you join our mailing list, you get every month, all four coaches let you know what we're listening to or reading or watching and why we like it. So you get lots of free resources. We share when we're going to be at events, when we're hosting events, our couples retreats, our men's groups. We're committing to hosting at least four workshops, educational workshops, every calendar year. We've got some sexual health workshops coming up this summer.

We did a pelvic floor workshop for women. I did, with Jason, we did a what happens when you're jealous of other partners workshops. So we, you'll get information about all that. Um, also on our website, you'll have a list of, you can find a list of all the podcasts we've been on. Oh my gosh, so many hours of free educational therapy types of things that you can see on there. Um, also links to our, um, self-study offerings.

If you want to just do some, some diving in with us where you aren't we aren't live and then of course how to connect with us if you want to do um coaching we are on instagram expansive.connection.coaching you can find us from the we got a thing website you see you can see us and have access to us in the we got a thing community which is just a wonderful space to create community and learn and feel less alone on this wild journey. Yeah, thanks for that. And any of that that you forget, you can contact me through our website at wegotathing.com or send me an email at mrjones at wegotathing.com.

So, thanks for listening. We are Mr. and Mrs. Jones. And I'm Catherine from Expansive Connections. And we got a thing. What's your thing? We'll see you next time.