Episode 127: Trust- What It Is Not

Transcript

This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey you teenagers out there, if you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us?

hello everyone i'm mr jones and i'm kell from expansive connection and we want to welcome you to episode 127 of the we got a thing slash expansive connection podcast uh it's good to see you although you're not here in person this time yeah bummer life got really busy on me this well yeah so speaking of life let's let's just get into catching up with the coaches this month what's been going on in your life gal oh gosh um well let's see um my personally my husband and i celebrated 25 years of marriage congratulations thank you and we went on a big, big vacation to celebrate that.

So we have been traveling and busy and doing all the things. But so that ran into all the things with the kids and all the things with everything. So that's made January very exciting. But professionally, we are very busy. We are hosting a string of workshops as a team. So Catherine was here with you last month and mentioned that she and Jason are hosting a jealousy workshop, which is very exciting happening this month. I am planning a woman's health workshop that's going to happen in the end of February with a affiliate from the Naughty Gym.

And we are also, Catherine and I, working very, very hard on our first ever couples retreat that is happening this March in Charleston, West Virginia. So we are sold out with 10 amazing couples that are trusting us for a weekend of deep dives on their relationship. And we are just getting all fired up with our nerd on. We've got our pencil sharpened and all our little glasses on and our schoolgirl outfits all ironed and ready. Okay, I'm getting a little distracted. My imagination, the schoolgirl thing is what put me over the top there.

So yeah, I know we're going to talk about this at the very end, but give everybody the Expansive Connection website now because that was a whole lot to remember and this way they could just go to your website and find everything. Absolutely. Our website is just www.expansiveconnection.com slash ENM. And that's where we have all of our fun resources and information and classes for people. You can click right on that and come to our offerings. You'll find any workshop that we are currently hosting and putting on. Also, any classes.

We have some great recorded work that if people want to really nerd out on their own time, they can buy some recorded workshops from Catherine, Miche, myself, and they can do some studying on their own. Also, any retreats or anything we have are also found right there on our website. Excellent. And then from my side of the fence, it's just me today. Mrs. Jones is not able to make this recording. So it's just the two of us. She's speaking of trust.

She's trusted me in this room with just the two of us um and she we are going to we've got a couple of uh standard format podcasts that we're getting ready to record so the two of us will be back within the next couple of weeks to put a regular episode out so we're looking forward to that. So let's get into the topic uh so i i think what it is not when it comes to trust is a great way to get my attention because i think a lot of us what do you mean what it is not i know what it is i'm i've been around for a while i've been in a relationship for a long time i know what what trust is.

And this topic that you came up with was based on the WGT podcast, episode number 90, when we talked about the importance of trust in the lifestyle. And in that podcast, which you can go back and listen to, we talked about trusting your relationship, trusting each other, trusting other couples, and trusting who you are becoming. So I'm assuming today that when you say trust what it's not, you're going to tell me everything that we didn't say correctly in that episode, right? No. I really, you know, I think that what you and Mrs.

Jones talked about in that episode actually was a really good reflection of trust in an action sense, trust as kind of a noun, trust as a thing. And I think what I really want to talk about is, you know, one of the great things about having coaches who are working actively in communities come and talk to you every month is that we really get the opportunity to bring the reoccurring themes that we see over and over again to your listeners and to you.

And I think one of the things that we just hear so often as a group where people get it wrong is when they come to us and they talk about trust as this feeling. And so what they do is they come to us and it's usually in the sense of my partner has broken my trust. So they're using it there like a noun, but they're describing it there like a like a feeling, like a, you know, an action. They did something and it's just ruined our trust. How am I going to trust them? What are we going to do to regain trust? Trust is gone.

And, you know, we as coaches go, I like to add some levity to the coaching session because sometimes it's hard and a lot of times it's tough. And I really like to throw in every time I hear that a quote from one of my favorite movies, The Princess Bride, where the amazing Inigo Montoya says over and over again, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. And that's what we end up kind of saying to our clients. And you keep using this word. I can't trust him. I can't trust her. I'm not so sure you actually know what that word means.

I don't think you know what that word actually means when you're saying it that way. So when you get to that point in a session where, okay, I've come in, I absolutely know what the problem is. He's broken my trust or she's broken my trust. And the first thing I get from you is, well, you don't really understand what trust is. How does that go over? Well, usually they're kind of upset, but that's OK. We aren't in the business of keeping our clients always smiling in our good graces. Sometimes we have to kind of hold a mirror up and have some hard conversations with them.

But I think that what they can sometimes settle down and hear is that when they are coming in and saying, this person has broken my trust, or I don't trust this person, what they're getting wrong about trust is that they are saying that trust is a feeling that someone else creates in them by what they're doing. And that's not really what trust is. Trust is so much bigger and so much broader and so much more actually concrete than just this temporary state where I feel good about what you've done or what you're doing, or I don't feel good about what you're doing.

And so I think what people do is they want to trust. And what they mean by trust is you're not doing what I want you to do. She's not doing what I want her to do. She's not doing what makes me feel good and comfortable. And so I don't trust it. And that's not exactly what trust means. So go ahead. And can you, there's so many things I want to ask, but I'm going to try to wait because I want you to give us an example of something that a couple may, one of them may have done that one person thinks is a broken trust, but it actually is not. Sure.

So a lot of things that are preference related, you know, we want to feel comfortable. We want to feel good. The brain is always pushing us towards the direction of ease and you know not towards the the direction of difficulty or strenuousness so a lot of times it's just i don't like what you're doing so for example if we meet a couple and we hit it right off and suddenly the wife in the relationship is texting these people 10 15 times a.

There is so much chat and so much chatter and so much picture sharing and so much GIF and GIF and all of the things, images and all kinds of jokes are being said all day long. And I go and say, well, I don't really like that. I don't want you to do it that much. And she continues to just keep texting all the time. Well, they'll end up in front of me on a Zoom screen or in person and say, hey, I don't trust this person anymore because they keep texting these people and I've told them not to. And unfortunately, that's not that you can't trust this person. She's not breaking your trust.

She's just doing something that you don't really like. She's doing something that you don't feel comfortable with. She's doing something that you don't want to do. And that's eliciting a feeling in you that is making you really uncomfortable. And so why is it that you don't want to do. And that's eliciting a feeling in you that is making you really uncomfortable. And so why is it, do you think that someone gets that feeling or what is it that's making them uncomfortable? What is it about our brain that's tricking us this time?

Well, I think really, and this is something that we talk about so many times and so often, what we want, what we think we want and and what is i think sometimes alluring to us especially about non-monogamy is this idea of novelty different new exciting we all talk about new relationship energy we all talk about all of the things that are happening and that is fun and that is novel and that is you know something that's that's attracted to us but what the brain really wants is safety. And where safety is actually found is insaneness for our brain.

What our brain wants is to be able to predict what is going to happen based on past events. And the best way to predict what is going to happen is for it to be the same thing that would happen if I was making all the decisions, which is why we like a lot of control and a lot of decision making. And so when the brain is looking for predictability, it's looking for you to do things that I would do. It is looking for us to be the same ass.

And so what happens when someone we love and are in a relationship with acts, speaks, behaves in a way that is not my preference, that is not the way I would naturally do it, our brain starts to freak out a little bit. And we start to get very nervous and very disapproving because that's the way the brain, the brain judges. So the brain goes, this isn't safe. I'm going to judge this as bad or untrustworthy. And so this discomfort is making me feel like I don't know what to do about this. And so what I'm going to do is try to shut that down.

And how I'm going to shut that down is sort of by telling you what you're doing is wrong. And a lot of times in couples, that becomes an issue of trust. So backing up a minute, I understand that. And I understand the comfort in being able to predict things.

But if I'm creating, let's say a rule or a guideline around texting and it's and it's agreed upon i guess that's the point in time where you would want to ask okay why is it that why is it that you want to do a four-way text or what is it about this that makes you uncomfortable do people skip over that conversation because because you could just, I guess if you're in a relationship for a while and somebody says, this is what I want, you could just say, okay, we'll do it that way.

But do you find that sometimes there's really not a digging into why you want that thing in place that's going to make you feel safe? I think that it's probably, again, And the brain sort of skips over those planning steps. You know, it's just an old fashioned saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And I think that, you know, what we miss is this idea of having these conversations about why, how, in what ways we might want to do this differently. And instead, we just either come along and say, well, we're going to do it this way.

Or we don't maybe necessarily even say that out loud. We just assume that this is how we're going to do it. You know, people use a lot of broad terms in these kind of things. You know, I love it when couples, when partners come and they have gotten really, really specific. And, you know, they're always like, well, we have all of these specifics. I'm like, great. Because what happens a lot of times for long-term couples is that we just assume that the meaning of words and the meaning of phrases and the meaning of things is all the same.

So, you know, it's that whole, how long is it going to be until you're ready to meet me? Well, five minutes. Well, every couple knows what five minutes is in their own relationship. You know, there's no clock in the world that clocks five minutes the way a couple knows how long a five minutes is. And what's happened is over time, we developed a definition of what I'll be ready in five minutes means. Well, this is new territory for most people. So a definition of something, say, like, oh, well, we'll see them on a regular basis. Well, does regular basis mean every weekend?

Does it mean once a month? Does it mean once a quarter? Does it mean once a year? We haven't really had to dig into that so much. So things like communication, for example. Well, I want to text them every once in a while. I think we should text them, you know, we need to make sure we stay regular communication. I think we should text sometimes during the day. Occasionally. We use words like that. And unfortunately, my occasionally and your occasionally could be so vastly different I'll see you next time. sometimes during the day. Occasionally. We use words like that.

And unfortunately, my occasionally and your occasionally could be so vastly different that that's where we sort of get into this fight about it. We get into this argument over what occasionally means. And we haven't really sat down and said, well, to me, more than 10 times a day feels like way too much. And by the way, that feels overwhelming.

And by the way, that feels like too much of a connection or too much of a relationship or too much time and effort so on and so forth and when it feels like it's too much and i start to get that feeling though what do people think it why am i being fearful like what am i going to lose like what is at stake here um we're talking about something that can be looked at very logically, like a rule about texting. But then all of a sudden, when the emotion gets pulled into it, it can become something bigger than maybe what it really is. Sure. Sure. We can get all into our emotions.

And emotions are just your brain's way of saying, pay attention to this. There's something about this that's reminding me of something that we should be afraid of. We should be worried about. We should be doing something about. And so, yes, we can make something into a bigger thing for sure. You know, I think that a lot of times when we talk to couples a lot about trust, which is happening just all of the time, you know, besides jealousy, a breach of trust is probably one of the biggest reasons, if not preventative, that will bring couples to our space.

And, you know, I think that a lot of times what we have to sit down and say is, this is not about what you want or what you wish or where you're misunderstanding. And we really have to kind of turn it back into what's actually happening here. So really what we want to do is talk to people about what do you believe about this person? What do you believe about why they're doing what they're doing? Because to go back to what you said, Mr. Jones, suddenly it becomes about a narrative. I'm going to lose here.

The narrative becomes, and because I don't trust you, or because you're doing something that's outside of what I would do, that means suddenly we're going to fall off a cliff into separation, or you're going to leave me for someone else, or you're going to care more about this person than you care about me. Or again, in that scarcity mindset, I'm going to lose for these other people to be gaining. Well, that's a slippery slope of emotion, but it's not really grounded in belief. What do you believe? What can you believe? What do you know versus what are you feeling?

And that becomes a much better conversation about trust. And that's a conversation that we love to have about trust because trust is what do you believe about this person? So when I'm on the, if I'm the person on the end of that, if I'm the one that's texting too much and then my partner has this feeling and there's a lack of trust, what is a mistake that I can make about how I respond to that? Sure. Well, I think it's about, first of all, what you said earlier, which is that digging in with curiosity about why am I doing this? Why is it bothering you?

These are much bigger and broader conversations. And I think that what we want to do is come into a conversation. If I'm choosing something that makes my partner feel uncomfortable and they're coming to me and saying, because you keep choosing this, it's making me not trust you. That's a really good circular way of how this conversation is happening. Then I think it becomes, how can I share with you about helping you kind of shorten these differences?

So if I'm way over here with, I want to do this 100 times a day, and you want to do it one, well, what we want to do is fill in the gap between those two places with information. Well, here's why. You have a job where you are so busy all day long. And I have a job where I'm waiting for the next customer service call to come in. And I'm bored. I don't have a lot to do. And this is really interesting. It's filling my time. It's giving me something to do. So again, it's not that I'm dying to do this all of the time. And this is all I'm thinking about.

It's just, well, this is better than scrolling on Instagram, so I might as well talk to our new friends. That's information that helps me understand why and what's happening for you. And I can share some of that if I can approach your fear, your narrative that this is a big deal and you're not listening to me and you don't understand how important this is to me with curiosity about why it's important to you. Well, what makes you feel threatened that I'm doing this all the time? What makes you feel like that's overwhelming your senses?

Is it, oh, I have to catch up at the end of the day and I have to read 50 messages and I don't like having to do that. Okay. Well, let's talk about that. We can have a little bit more understanding about each person's perspective. So if I said something like, oh, that's ridiculous. You have no reason to feel that way. That's probably not the right thing to say, right? No, that's probably never the right thing to say. I'm having a hard time thinking that's ever the right thing to say.

Well, where I'm coming from though, is that especially if it's like, if it's a newer relationship, I really understand because you don't have a lot of history. You may have been through something before in a different relationship it's a trigger for you um but but also in a case of a long-term marriage like ours trust is established over a period of time i mean year after year event after event and then all of a sudden if one thing starts to make that all crumble those those two things in my mind don't equal out.

right absolutely and i think that that's a good good way to kind of segue into this idea of i like to you know call in the professionals since i um definitely always recommend that my clients seek people who are wiser and smarter than me and one of those people that i really love and katherine also really loves is bernie Brown.

And so Brene Brown talks about this idea that trust is something that is built and whether my relationship with you has been a year or it has been 25 years, we have built this thing of trust, the solid thing over time in what Brene Brown calls this marble jar idea of trust. And what she says is that trust is built over and over and over again in these small things, just like filling a jar of marbles. And so when someone in, let's say a short term relationship returns your phone, you know, your phone calls when they call you, well, that's dropping a marble in.

When they pick you up on time to go somewhere, that's dropping a marble in. When they are patient, when they meet your parents and listen to your mom tell the same story 50 times, that's dropping a marble in. It's these moments by moment where people show up and they do what you hope they would do. They do what someone you want to be in relationship with does. They show you things you can believe in, that you can start to have a grounded sense of faith in, those are the ways we do trust. That's how trust is created bit by bit.

And so again, if I've been married 25 years and over 25 years, you have chosen me year after year, month after month, decade after decade at this time over friends and work and our children and moments and our families and our parents and, you know, all kinds of things. Well, it is an overreaction, an emotional overreaction to say, because you are behaving in this one way that's making me uncomfortable, I'm now going to throw that marble jar on the ground and bust it open and let the marble scatter everywhere. But emotions will make us do that. Emotions will cause us to feel that way. Yeah.

and it's almost like i'm my own worst enemy if i'm the one putting the marbles in the jar because what happens is then i assume and you can correct me if i'm wrong but that safety that your brain craves is being fed another marble i feel good about that another marble i feel even better about that and the jar gets full and i've And I've got this collection of things that have kind of trained my brain to make me feel safe.

But all of a sudden, why is it that that one little marble, and it's rhetorical, but that one or two little marbles sometimes, and I guess we haven't trained our brain enough, because sometimes we can instantly go right back to, oh, my gosh, I'm discounting all of those other marbles in the jar because this one marble has totally wrecked my psyche and my brain is telling me danger, danger. Right, right. And we as human beings are genetically programmed to look much more closely at things that can be harmful to us versus things that, you know, we look at the things that are scary.

We don't look at the things that are safe. I mean, that's the way, you know, we're, we're all programmed to be threat seeking animals because that's what's kept us alive and kept us safe all of these years. So of course we are going to pay more attention. We're going to have this danger danger when something doesn't just go right into the marble jar. Oh, you're not doing what I expect you to do or what I have leaned on over and over again.

And we use this phrase, my husband actually kind of came up with it and we've used it so many times in our marriage, but this idea of what's the difference between a pattern behavior and an outline behavior. We look at things like that with other people. We look at things with our kids. We look at things with each other because what matters is, is this a pattern of not putting marbles in the jar or putting marbles into this other jar? Whereas that I need to start believing that maybe I can't rely on you.

Maybe I need to start believing that our vision and our goals and our paths are not aligned anymore, which is a hard place to look, but sometimes it's a place we have to look. So I have to pay attention to is this one thing texting people more often than I would like or being more engaged in the conversation that I feel comfortable. A pattern of you just disregarding my feelings or not listening to me or not being curious?

Or is it this outlier of this one space in this one area in this one thing that while upsetting to me and while making me uncomfortable and while I'm going to have to do some deep digging is most definitely an outlier in your pattern of behaviors in what what I can believe about you, versus a true pattern where you are just choosing things that don't align with me, choosing things that don't make me feel safer over and over again. Yeah. And I think I kind of had a reaction to this could be all over the place, but also a reaction could be, we're just going to stop.

We're just going to get out of this non-monogamous lifestyle because i don't want to have this feeling but i would hope that since most people really talk about this before they get into it that there's also people that say well at least after things settle down like wait a minute what what is this what is this that i'm feeling why am i feeling this and open yourself up when the time is right to a conversation like this.

Because there's the other side of this, Kel, is that if I'm coming at this from the person who is maybe causing the feeling, that can I, like when you get into this non-monogamy, you meet really cool people and you start to form some really strong connections and you may get a little fearful yourself is wow i really like this person and i really think i'm starting to develop some sort of a feeling whether it's romantic or not or but but it's different and then we have to like we've never experienced this before so how am i am am i going to be able to control this am i going to be able to handle this is this going to be a get out of hand you know and then my behavior might start to indicate to my partner that if i'm uneasy about it or if i'm acting strange about it that just seems like it would add more fuel to that uncertainty and that lack of safety fire that's going on in my partner's head.

Yeah, yeah. And I think what we've said over and over again, and you and Mrs. Jones have said over and over again, is that stepping into this space requires a level of communication and willingness to have hard conversations that is beyond most people's training, what they've been either exposed to from the learning that we get from our parents and from the people that we watch, or from what we see in the media and what we see in the world, or what they just learn through basic relationships from when they start them as children until they get to be adults, until they get married.

We just don't have an excellent training ground to learn the skills to do some of this PhD level communicating, which is what you're talking about.

It's this ability to say, here is what is happening inside of me, my thoughts in my emotions in my reactions in my responses and I'm kind of throwing that out on the table with you and you are then doing that same thing well here's what's happening for me and here are my thoughts and here are my reactions and here are my beliefs and here are what I want my wishes and my fears and we sort of throw all that out there and then in this really kind and curious and non-judgmental way sort of peace I'll see you next time. and my wishes and my fears. And we sort of throw all that out there.

And then in this really kind and curious and nonjudgmental way, sort of piece together a we way of doing this. Like, okay, well, what can I learn from your fear of this that I didn't even know? And what can you learn in my excitement about this that you didn't know? You know, where is there this discovery?

And that is just that's much more in-depth conversation than hey are you picking the kids up today are we going to that thing at your mom's house what time is the soccer game like those calendary based conversations that a lot of marriages and a lot of partnerships are built on are not quite the muscles needed to have these kind of conversations yeah and the thing about it also that comes to mind for me is that um if i if i don't know how to have that if i'm the one that is really doing the texting or the over involvement or beginning to really form a connection, that can be a little bit scary to me.

And if I don't have the ability to stop myself and think about that and understand how other people perceive it, then as I was saying, that just causes, that could cause more angst, you know, with the other person. And I don't want people out there to believe, look, I mean, we had an issue and we've talked about this a few years ago and it took us, I want to say a year or more before we got to a point where we both understood what each of us was going through and how it affected the other person.

So, you know, sometimes this isn't something that just in a few days, you're going to be able to figure out, especially if this is new to you, and you've been in a long-term relationship, because the only thing that you have to compare it to is your own relationship. And I'm like, I don't want to have another, I don't want her to have another relationship like she and I have. That looks familiar to me. That's where it's going. And then my brain starts to overreact even more. Absolutely.

And I think circling back to what you said about when we feel these discomfort feelings or when we feel discomfort, it may be in myself, but it's even harder if I feel discomfort in my partner. Like if I see that my partner, my husband is uncomfortable, that's going to make me want to pull the plug, slam on the brakes more than if I am uncomfortable because my sense of empathy and sympathy is going to be ignited. And so what I think, you know, circling down when we have a conversation with someone or we say to our partner, you're doing this thing and now I can't trust you.

What we're trying to do is to get them to stop doing the thing. Like that's just the behind the scenes thing. And so when they end up with us, what we are actually, we're most of the time not going to actually suggest that they stop doing the thing. What we're going to suggest is that they train better to do the thing. That they, what you said, you know, you and Mrs. Jones took a year to figure out how to have conversations that were both curious, but non-judgmental, that were holding your own sense of self, but then leaning into your partner's sense of self as well. That takes work.

That takes training. And so, you know, when we start to talk about trust as beliefs, as a belief system, I think that what we sit with people as coaches and do is say, okay, where can we train you to have more belief in yourself, in your partner, and in these other people you're meeting? And that training, that strength building, you know, that sort of foundational, I can rest in this, is what is really crucial to feeling like you can trust almost anything.

You know, okay, well, then I can go into any space with you, and I can trust myself, I can trust us and I can trust almost anything you know okay well then i can go into any space with you and i can trust myself i can trust us and i can trust these people we're meeting not because of what you're doing or what these people that we haven't even really gotten to talk about are doing that i don't like and i don't trust so it's this building block of things the most important level being me so it's like you said we didn't even know how to say what we were going through to be able to hear what you were going through, because that's about learning to trust ourselves.

Couples come to us all of the time and we will get into this lovely, lovely idea about attachment theory and what kind of attachment they have.

And there's anxious attachment and avoiding attachment and there's disorganized attachment but the goal is secure we want security we want to have secure attachment and i love when people have done a little digging and they want to talk about that because the way to a secure attachment is first and foremost a deep security in yourself so the way for me to always have a belief or a trust in you is to be able to trust myself first and foremost, which means I got to know myself. I got to be able to communicate with myself.

I've got to be able to translate me to translate that to you, which means I've got to know me and learn me and understand me to do that to another person. And so we can never have more trust for another human being than we have for our own selves ever. And so that's the ticket. Like I've got to sit with you and say, okay, how can you trust yourself, your instincts, your guts, your wishes, your wants, your needs, what's a non-negotiable for you? And then explain that to someone else. How do you trust? This is what I'm afraid of. This is what I never want to do. This is what I'm afraid of this.

Like you got to learn you and then translate that to someone else. And so that's the first. And just like you can go to you all for some of that training, there's also this school of hard knocks that the rest of us are going through, because I think one thing that we actually learned from a round of jealousy that we experienced, like way back when we first started and I was jealous, I wanted to handle it by, I was saying, no, I've got to work through this. I've got to figure out what is at the root of this and well, we're just going to stop. You know, we're just going to stop.

Well, then when we got to this little bit of a trust issue um that was that that i should have known and i did eventually figure out she was going to want to stop because that's what she wanted to do when we had the jealousy issue and i'm but i'm more of no let's dig around in here and so i've learned how because of her default settings that's helped to train me to understand how to communicate these things in a way that I'm coming at it from a place of understanding instead of a defensiveness or an uncertainty.

and the other thing is that when i like i was saying before when i start to have a connection with another person um and it starts to get a little bit stronger, and then after some experience in a lifestyle, I realize, you know what, I know from experience that I can be closer to some other women, but that's not going to come anywhere close to threatening anything that I have with my partner.

Now, I didn't know that I said it at first, but really until you get into this and you see these other people making connections and forming quads and, you know, having these very strong feelings for each other, you know, I could think, is it going to stop for me? Am I going to get to a certain place and that's going to be the definition of that relationship? Or is it going to, is it going to continue to get stronger? Because that's a little bit scary. So, you know, it took us, I think it takes everybody in a situation like that. You know, Mrs.

Jones is much more capable of like putting those walls up. And when something gets a little bit too close, I know how that she's going to throw the wall up and she's very good at that. I'm probably the one that would continue to want to get to know somebody just because that's my natural, the way to approach people. But we've each learned that about the other person. So it becomes much easier for us to talk about because we understand each other that much better. Absolutely. And what you're talking about is actually what we're talking about when we're talking about trusting your partner.

So after we learn to trust ourselves, we are going to lean out and start to trust this other human being we already have. But what we're trusting is what we know about them. So what you're trusting in Mrs. Jones is that when she gets a little bit too nervous or too close or whatever, she's going to throw a wall up and that's going to be her way to create safety for herself because she knows herself and she knows where she wants to have limits and where she wants to have dividing. Great. Well, you are learning to trust that that's going to be her behavior. That's what she's going to do.

So when you see her do it, it's like, oh, I know this is what you do. I believe this is what you do. It's not what you want her to do. See the difference? It's not like you're saying, and it makes me so happy because I love it when she throws those walls up. That is just, oh, I get a warm and fuzzy feeling about it every single time. No, because trust is not about her doing what you want her to do. It's about you watching her over and over and then realizing, oh, I can trust. This is what she's going to do, what she needs to do, what's great and important for her. Okay.

That's what I can trust. And she can trust that you're going to push and you're going to expand and you're going to be curious and you're going to see what's out there because that's what you're going to do. So truth is when we watch our partner over time and we start to be able to know and believe that this is just part of how they are. And most of the time when couples come to us and they say, you know what, he's doing that thing. And now I don't trust him. After we really deconstructed that a little bit, we come back to this thing and they say, you know, that really is his personality.

That's how he is in these other places. He's always the first in line. He's always the one going and doing and never wants to sit stop and never says no to a good time. Well, that's just his personality. Well, of course it is. And that's what you know about him. And so this thing where he's engaging and engaging and engaging is actually not that much difference than the way he is at the softball game, but it's just real scarier in this place. Yeah.

So I think also speaking of that, what happens, Kel, is that when I understand how she's going to throw up the wall and I respect that, then it's reciprocated back to me because she knows how I am.

And if I honor her walls know then it's then there's more opportunity she honors my need for connection yeah and so there's a little bit of give and take and then that the safety that our brain was worried about at first those are just more marbles in the in the jug because she knows if that if that happens what how'm going to respond to that, and it's no longer going to be, you know, something that's, you know, a threat. Right.

And I also wonder, you know, we've said this in passing, of course, we're not professionals, so maybe I was speaking out of turn, but we have found that sometimes if the relationship doesn't have a lot of trust to begin with and you choose non-monogamy that it could really exacerbate issues and cause you know things to break up and i wonder if in the terms that we're talking about if it's because those marbles really never stacked up in the jar to begin with um you know so that's really something that could be a part of it as well. Yeah.

Well, and let's think about it the way we were talking about beliefs. I think a lot of times people don't like what they actually can trust about their partner. And so maybe you have been in a relationship and it wasn't that strong to begin with, because over and over again, your partner has chosen what they wanted over what made you comfortable. You know, they've never been very or they're not are not very often good at considering you before they consider themselves. And so, again, it's not about do I trust this person? It's what do you trust about this person?

And if you can trust that this person is going to leave you out of conversations, he's going to leave you out of his fun, he's going to be late when he says he's going to be on time because, oh, I didn't have time to call you. Well, don't come to me later and say, well, I can't trust him in this space. You can't trust him in any space. And it's not that you can't trust him. It's that you can trust him to not choose you. And so it becomes not necessarily that they don't have enough trust. It's that they're not paying attention to what they can actually trust because it's not what they want.

And it's not maybe what serves them. And it's not really what makes a good relationship for those people to begin with and that's hard that's heartbreaking that's difficult but if we don't actually look at those patterns and then that become what we trust good or bad we're setting ourselves up to be shocked and surprised and upset over and over again. And I don't think that non-monogamy is a place that we want to try those things out. I mean, that's a hard place to fall.

If I go out on a shaky bridge that really wasn't built very well and I can see the holes in it from a mile away, but this is the bridge I'm going to go try to kind of hang over the canyon with other people and other people's feelings and other people's, all kinds of things that happen in this space. I don't know that that's the place I'd be trying the shaky bridge and couples do it all the time. And again, it doesn't go well as you can imagine. Yeah.

And I think sometimes, and at least this happened with us is, um, we, I think we, um, what's the right the right word we we took our relationship for granted once or twice you know we knew it was strong we knew it was strong enough to get into this and i think we both um if there was a blip in the road it would be swept under the rug because oh that's okay we're strong enough to handle that but if you you do that for a period of time, then it can really start to erode what you've built over those years so long to put together.

And when it gets to that point, or close to that point, it really kind of shakes you up because you're like, wait a minute, wait a minute. We have been taking advantage of this and taking it for granted. And we haven't been doing the work that we need to do to put those marbles in our own jars because we're worried about all these other things. And so it does rear up, regardless of who you are, how long you've been in a relationship or even how long you've been in a non-monogamous lifestyle. Absolutely. It's definitely a building block. We have to keep building.

And again, I love the Brené Brown's analogy of the marble jar. You're right. If I haven't put a marble in the jar in 10 years, it doesn't matter how many marbles are in there. They haven't been refreshed. They haven't been filled up. There's not a lot to work with there. So you're right. We definitely need to continue to do the things that add to that trust. So just like you always do, it's probably about time that you just give us the tools and all the answers that we need so that none of us ever have to experience anything like this, right?

Well, that big of a promise but how about i actually give us something that we can really put our hands around and we'll kind of put some you know some meat to this about what are the things that we can trust to put marbles in the jar you know a lot of times let's take this i think you'd apply this to a primary relationship but you could apply this to new people that you're meeting anywhere, you know, whether it be you're meeting people in this lifestyle or you're meeting people anywhere. Well, how do I start to build trust beliefs about these people? Like, well, how the heck do I do that?

And so again, I'm going to lean into Brene Brown and she just has great tools and great ways to look at things. And she has an amazing tool. And we're going to put it in the show notes where people can listen to her actually explain it. And so I'll do a secondhand job of doing it with you guys. But she has this great tool that she uses around trust. And it's a use of the word braving. And so she says that to be, have trust and to be trusting is to be brave. And so she uses braving and she breaks that into these different components of trust. And so the first one is the B and that's boundaries.

So we can trust people who have strong boundaries of their own and respect our boundaries as well. So when we meet someone and they are very cool and calm and collected about what they can and cannot do, we instantly lean into that person. It's like, wow, that person says that they can only be available from X to Y and they have to leave it this time. And they can't, you know, they're just not yes to whatever we want. They have a strong sense of what they are able to give. And when I tell them, well, no, we can't meet that weekend. It's going to have to be another weekend.

They just said, that's fine. No problem. And, you know, didn't have a fuss. That's boundaries. And so we trust people that respect and hold their own boundaries. The R is reliability. And reliability is we trust people that do what they say they're going to do. It's just that simple. They say they're going to come, they come. They say they're going to be late, they call. You know, that's just reliability. People that just we can believe are going to be there when they say they will be there and that's a huge measure of trust. The A is accountability.

When people can own up to their own mistakes and allow me to as well, that's accountability. So when I can show up and I don't have to perfect, and I can say, you know what, I blew that. I didn't handle that well, and I'm sorry. And you can accept that, and hold me accountable, and say, yeah, you're right, you didn't. And I appreciate you saying so. And that can happen in the reverse. That's someone that we can trust. V in braving is the vault. The vault is that we trust people that we can share our private information with, and they will hold it in confidence.

And I will tell you that this is a place where we watch other people if they hold other people in confidence. So I'm going to share with going to, we've all met those people that want to come to us and they want to bond with us over some juicy bit of gossip that they know about somebody else. And that's someone that I'm not going to have a lot of trust in because just because I might want to hear that juicy bit of gossip, I know that that was someone else's confidence.

And so I want to trust people that not only I feel comfortable sharing my things with, but I feel comfortable they are going to keep that in their vault. That's a huge one. The I is integrity. We trust people who are honest, who are who they claim to be. They're not making themselves bigger, not making themselves smaller. They just show up as who they are. And that's actually who they are. They're honest. They're forthcoming. The N is non-judgment. And this is a huge one, I think, for people in non-monogamy. We trust people who are curious and accepting about us without judgment.

They want to know our stories. They want to hear our history. They want to hear the places we've maybe veered off course and we've made some bad choices. And, you know, there's such a vulnerable sharing of people that are in this space. I think that's one of the things that attracts people to the non-monogamous space in all kinds of areas is the vulnerability of people that are in it. And so when we meet people who will be vulnerable, but then we'll also hear our vulnerabilities with no judgment, just with curiosity and with just empathy, that's a huge trust.

The last one is the G, and that's generosity. And I think we trust people who are generous with their assumptions of our good intentions. So this is not necessarily about generosity in terms of giving or money or, you know, time. It's more about people who will look at our actions and give us the generousness of benefit of doubt. So in other words, they will hear me and see me and they will first assume good. You know, I have a rule in my house about, we talk about this and I've taught this to clients for years, this idea of the assumption of good, the rule of assumption of good.

And what that is, is that I will be so generous to your actions that when I see something that makes me feel a little twinge of uncomfortableness, that doesn't seem right. What I will do is run that through this assumption of good, that you are a good person who is trying to do good by yourself and good by me and good by others. And so instead of becoming really accusatory, I will come to you with curiosity and say, hey, listen, this doesn't make sense to me.

When you told me you would meet me on Tuesday and you didn't show up and you didn't call, that just didn't jive with the person I know and the person that I know who cares about my time and my energies. So what happened? That's a generosity. I'm assuming something happened, not you're a terrible human being. How dare you? Blah. So that generousness is what we're looking for. Generosity is what we're looking for to trust other people.

You know, instead of, as you were talking through these things, Kyle, and I'm thinking as specific examples of each of these letters and braving, what I've just realized as you were explaining all of this is that would be the perfect lifestyle, non-monogamous profile description. because uh people would want to be with we you know we've had we have a lot of friends we've made a lot of connections in the lifestyle and over and over what people will tell us is man you guys we can trust you and you're so safe we feel safe around you you're a safe a safe couple, and we trust you.

As you were reading this, when I think of boundaries, okay, yes, okay, we are soft swap, and we won't go any further than that. Yes, we're reliable. If something comes up, we're not going to ghost you. We're going to tell you what's going on. Accountability, let me tell you, we're not perfect. We did this one time, and boy, did we learn this from it.

And the vault, you know perfect we did this one time and boy did we learn this from it and the vault you know we did an episode on uh not naming names you know and and um integrity you know you actually walk the talk you're you're who you say you are um obviously you know non-judgment and and generosity and giving of yourself and your time everything that makes up that braving and and i think describes if you as a couple and i know we're talking about individuals here with trust but you as a couple if you uh if those are descriptive of how you are you are going to be able to make so many more connections and i'll'll tell you, somebody emailed me the other day, a listener, and was confiding in me about STIs.

And she said, I don't know how I tell people about this. I said, let me tell you, you are much more attractive to me for just even asking me that question, because you're being vulnerable. And that's really important. And I think a lot of times when we first get in this, we're looking at profile pictures. And when you look at a picture, you see a body, and you form an attraction based on everything that is not what you just described. It is a picture. But there needs to be some of that what is underneath of that and who are these people?

So not only does this apply to, I think, each of us individually, but it's just, and I think our community is just the people that we connect with, they're exemplary when it comes to, you know, being this exact this exact tool that you're, you're throwing out there. Right. Absolutely. And I think that when you're meeting people, you know, we hear, we, we talk to people a lot. We talked a lot about on this episode about trusting your partner, you know, maybe that kind of idea of that.

But I think a lot of times people will come to us and they'll say, gosh, you know, how do we learn to trust other couples? How do we learn to trust other people in this very vulnerable place? And I think this is the way. This is what you look for. We look for people who have boundaries, who are reliable, who are accountable, who have integrity, who keep things in the vault. You know, this is the guidepost, not just in these friendships, but in all of your friendships, I hope. But we need a concrete way to know beyond what people look like and maybe how other people talk about them.

We want to know that we can feel safe, which is what trust is. How safe do I feel? How much can I believe about you as a person that creates safety in me? And this is a concrete way to do that. It is not just, well, I think they're, they're trustworthy. They seem nice enough. Well, do they have good boundaries? You know, do they, are they, do they give you the assumption of good when you miss a phone call or miss a zoom date or whatever? Like these are real questions you can ask if you're trying to figure that out. And again, everyone is not going to pass the test.

You know, everybody's not going to be reliable. Everyone's not going to be a person of integrity. And I tell you, and we've talked about this before, you know, sometimes there's just something about another person or another couple that doesn't sit well with you.

And sometimes you can't put a name on it or you can't describe why but it comes down to one of these things because sometimes you don't even have to ask questions if people just start talking about people they've been with before or or if people say well we don't really have any boundaries it's kind of live and let live or if you hear them talking and judging ways about other people, they're, they're basically just coming out and telling you that they don't fit this model.

And, and therefore, that gives you something to grab ahold of and say, you know what, they're just not, they're just not for us, you know, at this point in time. So yeah, that's, that's something that I think we can use this tool for multiple situations in the lifestyle. Yeah, absolutely. All the cool kids will have this on their profile by the end of the episode. You're like, oh, we're braving, wink, wink. So yeah, I love it. Yeah, yeah, I do too. Okay, we're getting close to wrapping this up. It's been a fun conversation.

Normally, you know, Kel, we have themes in our monthly themes in our community and trust was the theme this month. And so we had asked some of our members to jot down a few questions that they might want you to address when we talk about trust. Is this a good time to ask those? Absolutely. I love questions from the community and from listeners. That's great. Okay. I'll read the first one. What kind of recommendations do you have to help couples maintain trust when trying the lifestyle? One of ours was to insist on four-way text messaging with new couples.

We know we can always check each other's phones at any time. Yeah. And so I think, you know, to me, this talks about what we said at the beginning, this idea of what are preventative things that we can talk about in concrete ways. You know, I love how concrete this rail that they've, this safety system that they've kind of put in place is. You know, it's a all four of us in one text block. That there's no, we'll just communicate or communicate however, or we'll all just chat.

No, that's being very specific and saying, I will feel more comfortable if these communications are ones that everyone can read at all times. And it's all just put out in the open. That's specifics.

So for me, the recommendations to help help and i'm going to say not maintain trust but maintain safety maintain feelings of i feel safe in the way we are designing this relationship style is to be as specific as possible about what you need and to be flexible as that changes so again we don't have to always tell people you're kind of making a fence and not building a wall because a fence i can move a fence i can take a place down and i can Thank you. as that changes.

So again, we don't have to always tell people you're kind of making a fence and not building a wall because a fence I can move a fence. I can take a place down and I can move it. I mean, I, you know, I'm from the South, so I'm used to big cattle farms and all cattle farms have big fences, but they're, they're big pieces of like metal. You just move them around and create the size you want. Well, that's a great way to create a safety fence. I want it to be something that you feel good about, but something that when you don't necessarily need it to be here or there, I can move it.

So I want to be flexible, but I want to be specific, and I want to make sure we both understand the specificness and the definition. So again, try not to use general language like, well, you know, whenever you think, or whatever's convenient, or as much as you want, or, you know, we want to use as specific a language as we can. Okay, question number two. I have a difficult time just being myself at lifestyle events, because I'm afraid I will cross a line and lose my partner's trust. Any advice?

hmm well my advice is going to be to be yourself because again, what you're doing is, I think that what you're trying to do when I listen to that listener's questions is you're trying to prevent your partner from feeling uncomfortable by you doing something or being some way that you want to be. And A, I think that that's limiting you and limiting them. Because it's limiting you because you're not actually able to be yourself. You're not able to actually let go and be in an environment where you can be who you are.

But you're also putting a limiter on your partner's ability to grow and learn and be uncomfortable with maybe an aspect of your personality. Again, an outlier behavior that you have. on your partner's ability to grow and learn and be uncomfortable with maybe an aspect of your personality. Again, an outlier behavior that you have when they've got this pattern to lean back on where they can feel safe. So I would suggest try it and maybe have a conversation with your partner ahead of time. And you say, listen, I really want to go and let loose, but I want to talk about it later.

And if there's something that I do or say or some way I behave that causes you to feel uncomfortable, then I want you to know that we can talk about that later. And we can talk about how that made you feel and what I could do differently if I need to do anything differently or what I can help you understand about that. And it could be a really good bridge to a really good conversation where you both can grow. You can grow into being comfortable being yourself, and they can grow into a little bit more trusting in themselves, trusting in you, and some learning there.

So, yeah, I think you just go out there and try it. See what happens. Yep. Okay, last question. I sometimes back away from a potential connection and friendship with another couple because I'm fearful my partner will develop feelings for someone else. He says that can't happen. How can I trust that won't change the way he feels about me? So, again, I think you can't. Because what you're trying to say is how can I guarantee that nothing will ever change the way this person feels about me?

And so when I change that word to control a control word you can't you can never control what happens with someone else and and I'm going to give your partner a little bit of of grace and say that he can't either you know we you and Catherine had a conversation a couple months back about how being the lifestyle was an adult activity and what that means and what that means is that and one of the biggest takeaways from that that we've had and really reiterated to our clients is that we necessarily can't control our feelings feelings are emotional impulses they are impulses from our brain that are telling us some message so emotions feelings those happen but what we can do is control what we do about those feelings so when I read this this or listen to this question she's trying to trust that something won't happen that no one can prevent from happening which is feelings now there's a lot of things we can do about actions there's a lot of conversations again going back to the question we had at the beginning recommendations to help maintain trust.

Well, you can have specific plans of safety that we're going to have conversations about. So, you know, if for some reason that your partner develops some feelings for someone else, well, what actions would not be okay based on those feelings? Well, I mean, how much is that going to impact your day-to-day relationship? How much time are these feelings going to take? What does he want to do about these feelings? Well, those are totally different conversations.

So I think trusting herself or himself that he can have those conversations in the future, even if they're uncomfortable, even if they're a little bit awkward. Again, this is that training we need to have these really hard conversations. But we're not going to try to use control over something we don't really have control over to feel safe. We're going to say, you know what, whatever happens, we'll figure it out. I believe you when you say you don't think that's going to happen. But if it does, well, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. And I trust that we can do that then.

Yeah, it comes back to a couple of those C words that you mentioned earlier. First of all, courage. of all communication because um you know you need to have the courage and find the right time and the right words um you know to to be able to bring these things up in a in an environment that is going to be healthy for you know listening to each other and boy doesn't it always seem to come back to communication? Absolutely. It's the training we all need to do this well, whether we step into a non-monogamous space or we just think about it and talk about it.

A good communication is just, it makes every single aspect of a relationship better for sure. Yeah. So before we close, you mentioned a few resources here. And I know you've already sent those to me, so they will be in the show notes. But do you want to mention those again real quick? Absolutely. I sent you a great recording from Brene Brown where she talks about the anatomy of trust. And she's going to go over the Braving Tool and talk to you about that. It's a wonderful listen. I also sent a really short video from the Gottmans.

The Gottmans are just gurus of relationship theory and teaching about how to build trust. I also sent a really fun podcast that really kind of turns trust upside down from a podcast that we love called Unfuck Your Brain. And it really takes trust and just says, wow, I don't necessarily think I have the greatest idea of what this means. And she's a really sassy woman and really kind of talks to us a little bit about how trust is not about making people feel a certain way. So I think people will enjoy those listens when they have time to want to dig into this a little deeper.

Well, thank you for that. I'll tell you the thing that comes to mind as we're closing and I'm listening to you talk about all of this really interesting information about trust is that the message I hear is very consistent.

And that is don't push, you know, don't if there's a situation where trust is an issue, just like a lot of other issues in the lifestyle, i think the healthy thing to do is to pause and to wait and if you're and if you're the one that the perception is causing it um my partner is important enough to me that right or wrong or good or bad you know i i think stopping and pulling back and putting those marbles in your own jar and letting them know that through my action of backing away or stopping, it doesn't mean I'm going to give up on it.

What it means is you are the most important relationship that I have. You're the most important person I have. And if you're uncomfortable about this, I'm going to pause. I'm going to voluntarily pause. And what I have learned over the years is buckle your seatbelt when you do that, because then you're going to have to hold on. Whether it's getting into the lifestyle and pushing somebody to do that and instead just be patient about it and wait, whether it's jealousy or whether it comes down to this trust.

You know, I think that sometimes we get so excited, especially if we're connecting with other people. And that is such a new feeling. And I get this new relationship energy and I want to text all day or I want to share pictures and I want to do this. And sometimes it's hard, as we were talking about being an adult in the lifestyle, sometimes that can come across as being, wow, that's more important to you than all of this that we already have. So I think the message needs to be regardless is, wait, you are the most important person to me, and I'm going to show you that first.

And then when you feel safer about that, then I can go back and we can have this conversation and sometimes unfortunately that hurts other people's feelings like if i have to pull back from a friendship or a connection um you know i'm just gonna have to hope that those friends understand and give us the grace that we need you know to work through that um so yeah everything that you've talked about and the fact that we've run into this a time or two ourselves, is just because you're the first one to pull back doesn't mean you're giving in. It doesn't mean you're weaker.

It doesn't mean you're codependent. You know, what it means is that you see out in front of you, you see clearly what is happening and push the pause button and let the other person kind of get back into that safe zone so that you can have the conversation necessary. And when you do that, boy, that puts so many marbles in the jar because then they know when something like this happens, I know I can count on you to refocus on me. Right. Absolutely. And that's choosing someone over and over again is the pattern of behavior that builds that mountain of trust.

You know, you don't have a marble jar, you have a mountain at that point. And I think that when couples can lean into that, when people can lean into that truth of you are the most important thing to me. And let me prove that to you. And let me show you that over and over again in this behavior. It does.

It just makes that belief in you stronger and stronger and you're right and then from there you're right you might suddenly have a person that goes wow i can't believe that you said no to this really exciting thing for me well that makes me even more want to dig into how can we start to say yes to this exciting thing what do i need to do to feel safer what do i do I need you to do for me to feel safer?

And then like you said, suddenly it's like, well, maybe we can go on this really fun, exciting ride with a little bit more security, a little bit more belief in, and not taking for granted this really important behavior pattern that we have, which is choosing our partner over and over again. Okay. And don't forget Expansive Connection or a member from the Expansive Connection team is with us every month. This month, it was Kel and Trust. So Kel, I know Jason's going to be with us next month. Do you know what he's going to be talking about? I do. I do.

It's actually a topic that we got from the We Got a Thing community that they brought it to us and we're going to deep dive into it. He's going to deep dive into it with you next month. And it is common fears that people have upon entering non-monogamy. You mean people are fearful about this? I do think people have some fears about it. Yeah, there's enough to make a common list. Well, as always, Kel, thank you very much for bringing this topic to the table. Thank you for all the research that you've done to prepare. And thank you for spending time with me.

And I know that our community and our listeners benefit greatly from the wisdom that you all share and expansive connection and just really appreciate your time. Oh, absolutely. Thank you so much for having us and for giving us this platform to just to teach and hopefully help people along this path. That's always our goal. Okay. You want to give the Expansive Connection website one more time? Absolutely. You can find us at expansiveconnection.com forward slash ENM.

And we're also on Instagram at expansive.connect expansive dot connection dot coaching so look for us there as well and our website is we got a thing dot com and there's one more place you can find expansive connection and that is in our we got a thing community they have a presence there and all of the um team from expansive connection is in there interacting with our community and just involved in a lot of things. So we value that partnership and hope that you all out there will take advantage of that.

Because, you know, one thing that I think we've learned finally is no matter how strong your relationship is and how much trust you have, It's always good when you can have that trusted third party that you can bring in and really help us to understand, I'm not the only one going through this and to understand that I'm not a bad person for feeling this. And this is what's going on inside of my brain. And here are some things that you might want to think about when it comes to fixing it. So you guys are just fantastic about that. Oh, thank you so much.

And I will give a plug for the community too, and tell you that if you're looking for a community full of braving people, that we got to think community is a place to find that. So they're full of amazing people and amazing people who are really embraced those, each of those, those ideas.

So yeah, if you're looking for a, a new tribe and you want them to all follow a lot of them to follow that braving mantra then i would start looking in the week i think community yeah all right well thanks and i will let you get back hopefully your life uh settles down a little bit then you guys can start to relax a little bit and enjoy and not do so many earth like life events at one time uh well what would be the fun in that we'll just keep doing life events that works out great all right thanks take care thank you We'll see you next time.