Episode 124: Handling Rejection in the Lifestyle

Transcript

This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey you teenagers out there, if you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework.

We are a long-time married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex-positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle care to join us hello everyone i'm mr jones and i'm mrs jones and we want to welcome you to episode 124 of the we got a thing podcast this is a joint episode with michelle from expansive connection so we are going to dive right in it's good to hang out with you guys for a little bit i'm excited yeah. Yeah, we've really enjoyed these little chats with our Expansive Connection friends.

It makes us look smart, and we get to learn some things at the same time. So we appreciate you guys taking the time and partnering with us. So if you'll take a second and introduce yourself personally, and then get into your role at Expansive Connection. Yeah. Okay. So I'm Miche, and I've been with Expansive Connection since 2020. I think I met Catherine in 2019, and within the coaching practice, I am one of four coaches and actually was the original, I guess I'm the OG. I'm the first one she brought on and I get to be a coach in the E&M community in my vanilla life.

I'm a therapist and so regardless of what space I'm in, I get to use all of the great tools that I've learned to help support the people that I'm working with. So I have certifications in trauma therapy as well as sex therapy. And I am intensively trained in dialectical behavior therapy, which means I work with mood disorders. And what else? Specialize in trauma, of course. And I've recently been adding to my sex therapy repertoire with E&M stuff in the last five years and have really kind of enjoyed that.

And yeah, so I think I'll just keep going because I'm having a blast and I found my people and I plan to stay here till someone tells me I'm too old and I have to leave. Well, they haven't told us we're too old yet. So I think you got a few years to go. Sounds good. And what I love about expansive connection and everyone there is you all have also personal experience in E&M yourselves.

So yeah I've been doing my own personal E&M journey since 2019 and have learned some hard lessons and some good lessons and you know you guys get to benefit from the tricky precarious spaces I place myself in and then also the wonderful people who have partnered with me and the lessons that our relationships have taught me as well. And then I get to hold them up with like therapy tools. That's fun. With all of that, what I'm looking forward to is you telling us all how we will never be rejected again in the last show. Yeah. I don't know that I can do that.

But hopefully we can get a little more comfortable with it. That would be great. Yeah. I mean, it's everybody feels it, right? Uh-huh. Yeah. It's a huge common, just it's just part of the lived experience of being a human being. And we try really hard to reject this or avoid it at any cost possible kind of like the feeling of jealousy because it's just really uncomfortable but you know if we embrace it like a lot of other things that are incredibly difficult and hard it takes the fear and the sting away from it bit. So yeah, I thought we'd talk about it for a little.

Yeah, and I suspect that there's a whole lot more to this than just somebody doesn't like me. No, but that might be the first thing that comes up. Like, why don't you like me? Why am I not good enough?

Kind of like those shame thought spirals that kind of happen when we're feeling a little overwhelmed emotionally yeah yeah and and i know it gets a little bit easier over time but really the pain doesn't go away well it just it stings you know and i think as you get you know experience with that feeling of rejection I mean it it's still gonna sting but you I guess you know how to deal with it and just kind of like shake it off.

Yeah I love the fact that you guys said that it stings because it really does and the sting gets easier to handle and maybe it doesn't last as long but it doesn't mean that the reaction to it won't they're like there won't always be some type of reaction because if you put us in like tribal lands like way back um and like prehistoric nomads and stuff like that um the idea of rejection and the sting of it that physiological response actually kept us safe it reminded us like leaving the tribe was death and there goes your food shelter water your safety someone else take care of you and look after you and so that desire to stay liked and in the group and part of the community is hardwired into our reptilian brain and it's the driving force for basically community and staying in it.

It's also kind of like the driving force of not feeling shame, you know, that stingy piece. And so, like, it always will probably feel, it'll probably always ping you a little bit because we're designed for community. However, we can change our perspectives and sit with it a little differently. yeah and I I think if we put it in perspective based on what you just said, if it's prehistoric times and I'm rejected, it's just not only a partner, you know, it's, it's a place to live, you know, it's food to eat.

So there's a whole lot more to lose because in this lifestyle not only do i already have a partner i already have shelter i already have that but it's but it still hurts yeah it's you're trying to tell your brain like no there isn't like a whole tribe that's going to like leave me out in the weeds this is this is extra fun and i'm enjoying myself and there will be another person but sometimes that's not how it feels so because it's such a hardwired piece Thank you. the weeds. This is extra fun and I'm enjoying myself and there will be another person. But sometimes that's not how it feels.

So because it's such a hardwired piece within us, it kind of triggers that fight, flight, fear, freeze kind of response within us. And for a lot of people, it becomes such a visceral response that they will either seek out the negative spaces of Thank you. it becomes such a visceral response that they will either seek out the negative spaces of rejection first, right? Instead of looking for the parts of the connection that would actually be positive, or they'll start to feel like there's a self-fulfilling prophecy where like, I already know I'm going to be rejected.

And so that thought kind of leads to the rejection happening. So, you know, we kind of sometimes help to egg on that automatic response that we have within us. Are there certain types of people who tell that story in a negative way? Does it happen to all of us? Is that fairly common, do you think? I don't know. I think for some people, it can be really common for the people that it's not. And it also kind of depends on where you are in your journey. Like there's some people who start an E&M and they're just hot to trot.

They're just like, you know, like go in and everyone and everything is their oyster.

And then somehow either their boundaries or rules change or they realize like oh I feel like my voice is actually telling me to do this type of thing instead like this is more of my cup of tea and so it changes the dynamic of the way they engage before which means they might actually encounter more no's or more more these are not this isn't something that we're also looking at and enjoying like if you went in and you had like all of your boundaries and rules were and everything was a green light and then maybe you had kerfuffle in the relationship and you've closed some doors then maybe the people that you engage with that pool might get a little smaller and so then you have a smaller pool of people to deal with so you might actually have more rejection whether that's perceived or not or true or not because sometimes people aren't rejecting you they're also rejecting maybe the environment maybe the goals of the relationship with the other couple that you're pursuing isn't the same goals as the ones that you all have.

So it's not always you. It's sometimes the place that you're at, the situation, or like what you're both wanting. So the reason for rejection can, I guess, affect the way you respond to it. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.

But, you know, for a lot of of times especially if you're like a people pleaser guilty as charged like the first thought that you have is like oh there's something wrong with me not like oh how many other ways could this rejection be interpreted yeah and i think for some of us who i mean we were married for 30 years before we got into this and i was for 30 years I was really never in a mindset of who might be attracted to me and who I might be attracted to so I think a lot of it is that I'm just out of the game for so long and maybe I have an expectation that where I don't know what it's like to feel attractive to other people.

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of new. So there's a lot of stuff going on in our mind. When somebody is attracted to me, I know that in our experience, Miche, a lot of people who are new to this and they finally or they get another couple couple that they're attracted to and they kind of cling to that because a lot of people think, wow, somebody's attracted to me. All of a sudden I feel really good. I get a high and why do I want to take a chance at rejection? I'll just stick with this couple here because they like me.

That happens a And then I like, sometimes I'm like, but you want to see all the other cool people and different flavors and lifestyle and enjoy that. Like, it's okay. Don't be afraid of like nothing happening. So yeah, I have seen that. I have seen that quite a bit in working in, you know, where they find one couple and they get really excited and they just kind of hunker down. Um, but sometimes that causes problems in the long run. Yeah, exactly.

Um, so I think as we move through the lifestyle and get a little bit more experiencing and kind of get used to being rejected, um, then it, we don't take it, it doesn't seem to sting as much and we don't take it as personal anymore. Yeah. Well, how, how did you guys handle rejection? Like in the very beginning, like how did that feel for you all?

I always sensed that it was probably because of me, You know, I had a hard time understanding that other ladies would be attracted to me and so when a couple wasn't interested in us i kind of took it personally like i was responsible uh for that um but yeah that's how i felt anyway i mean like when when we would get rejected i just remember feeling like you know I wasn't cool enough or whatever you know it it took me like back to stupid middle school again yeah like why don't they like me I'm cool right exactly yeah and when you're used to that high that you get when somebody does accept you then almost the opposite is true when you're rejected it's almost like going into withdrawal like that I liked the chemicals that were going through my bodies and now all of a sudden yeah unless you don't have them then it feels pretty strong yeah so like you have the oxytocin the norepinephrine the dopamine it all just kind of floods you and it kind of gives you that high romantic, everything is great, chemicals.

Like I'm always like, even when I'm like 80, I want to be in all of these lifestyle resorts because like the sexy pheromones, like you can just sit and it's just like saturation. Like your brain knows what to do with all of that.

I think it's the coolest thing ever however rejection after like you know that it's coming or you've been chatting up a couple for like two days and you felt like they were green lights and your brain is like yes green lights and then if they go off with a different couple or the situation starts to turn a little differently than what you had thought it was go where you thought it was going um that rejection kind of feels like withdrawal a little bit because your brain is like hold on where's my happy juice you know um and so it starts to trigger some of those obsessive thoughts around anxiety and despair or might lead to some self-doubt um like shame or belief that there's something inherently wrong with you or what did what did you not do well this Yeah.

And I think sometimes we feel that even if we think there's a connection at first, and I know Mrs. Jones, you talked about this a couple of times. If we actually did connect with a couple and then the play experience wasn't as great as it could be, and you get two or three of those in a row, you start to look at your body and you look in the mirror and you see the wrinkles and you're like, well, obviously, they were attracted to me until I got my clothes off. And then all of a sudden they didn't. So I'm telling myself this story about why somebody has accepted me at first and then rejected me.

Well, not really rejected, but if things don't go well, that's the same feeling you get. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's worse than being shot down the first time. If we play with a couple and we think it went well, and then we want to play again, and then however they let us down, they let us down and it's like, oh my gosh, then it's really bad. Yeah. Yeah. Like, what are you guys saying when we leave? What's happening?

I don't want to lose sight of the terminology that you're using here, Miche, because what we've been talking about is understanding rejection and then the last neurochemical impact of love and rejection is what we're talking about now. But if you want to talk a little bit more about this cycle of abandonment, what does that mean? Thank you. chemical impact of love and rejection is what we're talking about now. But if you want to talk a little bit more about this cycle of abandonment, what does that mean?

I kind of have always felt that our brains will still hit on all of those receptors of connection. Like when you're sleeping with someone, you're still going to get that release of oxytocin, that bonding hormone that happens. And so like, although cognitively we can say like, I understand that this is just fun, the soup that our brain makes still says attach, right? So you're going to have a little bit of that withdrawal fear, fear of abandonment that kind of happens in that space space even if you're not, that's not what you're there for.

So I just wanted to be like really kind of clear that that withdrawal can sometimes sting a little bit and it triggers that response that kind of mirrors like that substance like like, where's my next love soup chemicals coming from? Can I ask a question? Yeah. So, like, you know, like the DTF people, do they experience that hormone less than people that really need that connection? I mean, can it be like a, like a chemical reason that some people are more DTF than others? Um, not that I know of from all of the research that I've read, you know, we all release the bonding hormones.

Like that's just part of the love drugs. Um um i think that there are some people who like for them it's like this feels great and then once we're done we're done yeah it's not that the same chemicals don't happen it's just that for them they're like okay and we've had fun and now we're playing and we're we're done with that um whereas other people are like well actually the relationship piece, is like part of the yumminess for me as well.

Let's talk a little bit about body language, uh, because a lot of times people are hesitant to even approach someone else or conversations really never get started because I'm looking across the table at this person or they're standing in front of me and they're not making eye contact or they're looking down and I'm not sensing any kind of, um, you know, that they really want to be there, even though the words are coming out of their mouth, they're a little bit different. So how does body language fit in?

Not only the person that you, like both people in the conversation, somebody could sense that somebody's being really assertive with their body language and that might turn them off. But how does body language into all of this conversation about attractiveness and being rejected? oh that's that's a really big piece of this. You know, we can sometimes look at, look at people and know that they are upset or into something or disinterested without ever even hearing their conversation.

So when you're talking with somebody and you're looking for the enthusiastic yes, or then, you know, this isn't what I want. I think sometimes even more than what they're saying, it's the way that they are socially signaling to you their level of interest.

Um, and so if you see someone like with their arms crossed, or if they're like looking everywhere but your face um or um leaning out of the conversation um a lot of times those can be really great signals that they're not exactly as enthusiastic about this as maybe you would like for them to be or you know it's giving you the signal yeah they are no no they're not um also if they look really tense, like maybe, you know, they're holding themselves, um, if their arms are crossed and their legs are crossed and they're leaning back, it's probably not like the best form of invitation and vice versa.

If they're leaning in, if they're making eye contact with you that isn't like overwhelming um and if they have maybe a relaxed posture like their arms are open um they're not looking like they're tense at all maybe a little relaxed and very interested in you and they're standing probably a little closer to you that body language is more of like a i'm really interested really interested into this and I'm leaning towards an enthusiastic yes. So I think it's really important to be able to read those because people don't want to make other people upset a lot of times. Right.

And I think I remember being a newbie at this and going to a meet and greet and standing up against the wall in the back being afraid to talk to anybody. And that kind of body language is not even, I don't think I understood, or I don't think a lot of people understand that that body language is not, you don't look like you're approachable. And I'm sure people looked at us, maybe not even saw us because we're standing in the back of the room. Yet my perception might be, oh, well, we were there for an hour and nobody came up to talk with us.

So this idea that we got rejected by everybody at the party, in fact, was because I'm standing in the back of the room well that's what caused the fight between us like we are on the way home from that night we argued in the car for 45 minutes because i was like we were standing in the corner we looked ridiculous yeah so yeah yeah well and i because i'm the type of that I'm, I'm like scoping out the room from a distance. I'm looking at people and I'm trying to figure out who I would be attracted.

I'm trying to figure everything out so that I can eliminate any possibility of rejection before I go and approach somebody. So obviously from what I'm hearing, I did everything wrong. well i I think it's that whole self-fulfilling prophecy. Like, you just, like, set yourself right up to go home alone. Well, with me, but otherwise alone. Right. It helps to add to that narrative that we sometimes have.

Like, if we have two narratives going into a situation, like, maybe it could be good, but more than likely more than likely I'm not gonna meet anybody and if you stand in the corner sometimes I'm just as guilty like it's like oh well the one I thought was gonna happen it happens you know but like not taking into account like that I probably could have socially signaled some other things um I think the very first E&M meetup I went to, it was a New Year's costume party, and you were wearing masks. And I think maybe 30 minutes into it, everybody took their mask off.

And I had never been to one of these. I was completely out of my comfort zone.

I was still like, I know I'm going to run to somebody I know, and then they're gonna tell the whole city and I'm gonna get fired from everything this is horrible right and I had to have someone like talk to me and be like you know you can take your mask off and I was like I don't know I don't know but by then when I look back I'm like I'm probably like the one of like four people that was still wearing their mask and it by then it just wasn't socially appropriate to wear anymore but it was i was hanging on to that thing for dear life um but once i took it all people decided to come and talk to me but yeah i was kind of creating my own uh filling my own narrative and i think in a way that's why people like to wear costumes a lot in the lifestyle because we do any kind of costume that we have on, whether a face covering or not, it kind of lets you forget who you really are.

And you can, you can act like you can act like you're braver than you are, I guess. Yeah. Well, I think people are noticing your costume at first, right? Mm-hmm. You know, so maybe you're hiding behind your costume. And then if they like your costume, then they may be like, wow, she's really hot wearing that costume. But their costume is what catches people's eye.

But then keep them talking to you to you have to eventually be your authentic self and get out of there right you can't you can't hide in the corner mr jones what is it and this is where you can put your counselor hat on why is this so awkward uh look We're adults. I'm in my 60s. I know how to behave socially.

I've had a successful career i can speak in public um you know all of these other things in my life that i'm good at and then all of a sudden i'm in this place where i i'm not that confident i get rejected and it's just so awkward and it's difficult to even get where I'm not that confident, I get rejected, and it's just so awkward. And it's difficult to even get to a place where I can think about this and get used to, like, how am I supposed to respond to this when things get awkward? Oh, I love that.

Because I'm always like, if people come up to you and you feel awkward, just say that you feel awkward. Say that this is weird. Say that you've never done this before. Say that this is outside of your comfort zone. Because other people are going to experience your discomfort. And the way you socially signaled that discomfort might look different to the person receiving it than it does to you in your own head.

For example, I sometimes have sometimes have really bad anxiety and before I realized I had anxiety because I thought I was doing a really great job of masking and I was not, my family would experience it as me being angry. And I was like, I'm not angry, I am anxious. And so when I began to tell people I was anxious and I just needed a minute to like self-regulate, their response to me completely changed.

So I think sometimes we go into these social spaces and we're trying so hard to mask the awkward that we're not able to let our authenticity come out or our weirdness because, you know, somebody's going to like your weird.

um it doesn't let it come out and then you can't um connect with people and so then you're fulfilling that prophecy of like rejection so like embracing the awkward and stating that it feels a little a little out of pocket well and like when i'm talking to somebody for the first time and and i have had people do that before before, you know, say, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm here. I'm so nervous, you know, completely out of my comfort zone.

And, and that immediately wants, it motivates me to help put them at ease to just like take a breath and, and just maybe talk about something a little easier or, you know, just kind of go back to the basics with them and let them kind of catch their breath mentally. You know what I mean? And maybe that's the retired teacher coming out in me, you know, trying to make everybody feel like they belong. And one of the things that we talked about recently, Miche, is that, you know, physical attraction is often the initial reason why we approach somebody, whether it's virtually or in person.

But what we find is that the more, the better we get to know the people that we're talking to, the more attractive that they become. And so I think if there's any way to help people understand the goal here in not being rejected, or if you are rejected, it's not because of anything you didn't provide, is just let people get to know you. But then the trick of it is you have a lot of people who are new to this, and they want to be be discreet and they don't want to share anything about really who they are.

So you're really decreasing the odds of finding somebody that you're going to be attracted to unless you can be willing to share a little bit, be vulnerable and be willing to share something about yourself. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that kind of goes back to the idea of being rejected, not necessarily for you. However, you might be rejected for like Thank you.

absolutely absolutely so that kind of goes back to the idea of being rejected not necessarily for you however you might be rejected for like how much you're able to do in the lifestyle or you might be ruled out because you're not connecting in a way that the other person is looking to connect or um maybe like you're new and you're just going for the environment, right? And so maybe you're just in there to meet other people who are in the environment. So then you might be the person who's actually doing the rejecting.

So I think that's actually a really great point that sometimes it's a little different. Yeah. And I think that sometimes we, when we're on the other side and we're rejecting somebody else, that's a difficult thing to do I'll see you next time. Yeah. And I think that sometimes we, when we're on the other side and we're rejecting somebody else, that's a difficult thing to do because we know what it feels like.

And a lot of times we are trying to spare somebody that feeling, but if we don't do that, then we're simply leading them on and making them believe that there's a level of attraction there so i think that what you can help us with is um this rejection happens i mean there's a lot of things out of our control that lead to some uh other reasons why we're rejected so i think if you'll go through some of these things, it'll make us all feel better that it's not always us that's causing the problems. No, it's not always us. I think we've stated some already. Like our goals might be different.

The environment, what kind of environment we're in, you know, like maybe some people don't like to go to the playrooms but that's where you've decided to play so that might be a no um or maybe it's you know i need to really get to know somebody before i'm actually to be turned on but if it's a three-day event maybe they need four or five you know so it might not actually be you it might be environmental also poorly stated elevator speeches right if it's your first time doing this being able to say what I'm okay with what I'm flexible on what I'm not okay with might just be a muscle you haven't exercised quite a bit um and so if you're not able to communicate that well then the other person might not be very secure in your yeses and nos and then of course another reason for being rejected is like your social signaling like what are you socially signaling to other people so maybe your anxiety comes off as a resting bitch face.

That happens. Sometimes your anxiety, sometimes your anxiety or might help you make you withdraw, you know. And that doesn't actually lend to like really great communication and fostering relationships.

Sometimes not acknowledging awkward and trying to like shove it down that signals something to the different to the people around you and that might help you experience a little more rejection um and if you're not being yourself you know if you're new you're nervous you're not quite sure how this goes even if you've done this for a while and you're going to a completely different you know um experience than you've been to before I don't know. if you're new, you're nervous, you're not quite sure how this goes.

Even if you've done this for a while and you're going to a completely different experience than you've been to before, you might not feel like you're in your element. And so it might be harder for you to be yourself. Also knowing what your why is, like, why are we here? Why are we doing this? And recognizing that your why for doing this might be completely different than the other couple's why for doing it and that that's okay. When we first get into this, again, I'm thinking from more of a newbie perspective. Sometimes there's a perception that everybody here is out to get me.

I mean, they're out to have sex with me tonight. and that can cause us to be shut down and be defensive and really not be open for people to get to know us. And if anything, Mrs. Jones and I are guilty of the complete opposite. We did a episode once on being the newbie whisperers because we put absolutely no pressure on people. We just want to get to know people and we want people to get to know us. And really, the rejection part of it doesn't come into play if it doesn't get to that point. You still have an opportunity to talk with people and get to know people.

And during that time, you can figure out if there's an attraction and you want to maybe get to know them better. I don't, it doesn't feel like you've been rejected because you've taken the time and you've had good conversations with people. And it's completely different than walking up to somebody and say, okay, look, the playroom closes in an hour. What do you say? It's a whole different, uh, situation. It's very assertive. Yeah. So I like what you said about the elevator speech.

Um, you know, before we go to an event, uh, before we go, we try to get on the same page as a couple and we try to say, okay, you know, and lately because we haven't been playing with people because of my medical condition, you know, we'll, we'll talk about what will be, what would we be open to doing and who would, what type of person would we be open to doing it with? Would it be somebody new? Would it be friends that we already have?

You know, so depending on where we are, and you know, that changes in our lives too, just because we've played with somebody before, there might be an expectation. But if they don't know what's going on in our lives, then if it doesn't happen, you know, the reason for rejection really had nothing to do with them. It had more to do with where we are and what we're comfortable with.

with and we try to i think in a way we're a little bit fortunate because with this podcast you know before we've we've been saying publicly that we're not playing and so i think most everybody that runs into us knows that yeah so we do have a little bit of advantage there and but i like the idea of an elevator speech. But in order to have an elevator speech, you both have to create that speech together before the date or the event or the trip or whatever it is. Absolutely.

I think it's really important because it helps you feel like you're both going in and playing the same team, and then there's less surprises, less ways to be triggered. You're not having to make decisions under duress of time, availability, and also fighting all the hormone chemicals in your head that are like, let's party. You're not fighting all of that at the same time.

um and so it's really i i would imagine that it would create a lot less stress for you in a play environment if you have already figured out your elevator speech before you even get there we have um friends who always include in their elevator speech the statement um they'll they tell the other couple, we are the easiest people to say no to. So basically they, they give people an out as part of their elevator speech. And that's such a, that's such a, uh, an easy way for people to reject you. And then you've kind of already, you know, kind of set your own self up to be prepared for that.

Oh, I like that. Do you think, Miche, that, and this just now came to mind, okay, again, we were a longtime married couple. You know, in our own relationship, we reject each other frequently when we're married. I mean, for whatever. And it doesn't seem like rejection. It's more like not tonight, or I'm not feeling it, or it's not a weekend, or I need to wash my hair, or whatever married couples go through. But if you think about it, that's really a form of rejection.

I wonder if any of that that we experience in our own relationships kind of, uh, uh, influences our expectations when we're now out trying to meet new couples. Yeah, I would imagine it would.

There might be couples who, because of life circumstances or desire differences, like that they might have done a lot of turning each other down throughout their marriage and feel like i feel really comfortable with this um or maybe they're both really used to not actually turning each other down a lot that happens as well and then having to go in and get ready to hear no for the first time from a lot of different people um might feel really wounding um and just be like a skill you haven't had to develop for a while yeah and can i just say i've never turned you down because i need to wash my hair like some of those were somewhat applicable but that one was a little out of was just, honey, it was just an illustration.

It was totally fictitious and made up. It had nothing to do with our relationship. Well, I just needed to go on the record with that just to make sure. No, you've been very good at not turning me down. As a matter of fact, I think you probably initiate sex more than I do. So you should have been the one asking that question. All right. I'm glad that's on the record too. Yeah. So, you know, I think this having an elevator speech and talking about communication kind of leads us into this whole idea of how we're transforming our relationship with rejection.

so i'm anxious to hear how being rejected is going to help transform our relationship michelle um okay so i have like six little blurbs about transforming your relationship with rejection so um but before we do that i did want to say one more thing about experiencing rejection i don't know if i mentioned. So, but before we do that, I did want to say one more thing about experiencing rejection. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but it was operating from a scarcity mindset, right?

I kind of feel like sometimes there can be a timer in your head a little bit at some of the events that you go to where you're like, I've spent all this money and all this time chatting with people online. Like, I definitely want something to happen. And the kind of pressure that you put on yourself might influence the decisions that you make or how intensely you come off to other people. Which might feel a little weird to the person receiving it.

Um, and so if you go into it with like into it with, like, I'm here to have a whole bunch of fun and maybe make some new friends and something else happens from that, awesome. Do I want something to happen? Probably. That's pretty hot. And, you know, at the end of the day, I'd still like to make friends and have a lot of fun. And then even if this is a no, then it's leading me closer to a good yes. You know, I want an enthusiastic yes.

I don't want to like, this will do, you know, so just not operating from a scarcity mindset because the way it's received to other people might also lead you down that path of experiencing rejection as well i hadn't really thought about it that way um i was thinking that the scarcity mindset was more of um i i might not make a good choice on who i proposition you know or invite to have sex with me.

Um, because again, you know, the clock is ticking and all that but but I like what you said about it it can affect the way you come across to people like I mean I'm thinking the word desperate but you I think you were saying it was like you might come across too intense or something yeah like trying to make sure that you land like you stick the landing while you're there, but maybe this one isn't the one for you and that's okay. The next time it'll be amazing. Yeah. And I think the environment has a lot to do.

That's why we never really liked house parties that much because, okay, they're locking the doors at nine o'clock.

People have babysitters and they have to leave at midnight and there's x number of rooms available in the house and people start pairing off and you see people pairing off and then you start to panic or people approach you and say kind of like they tap their watch and say okay you know it's time to get moving so a lot of times that the event that you attend can lead to that type of a situation where you feel that pressure and you know at like at a house party when like when mr jones was saying people start pairing off and and maybe like the one couple that you were working up the nerve to go approach you watch them disappear with somebody else and you're like, oh no.

You just got rejected because you had bad timing or you weren't brave enough to get in there before the other couple did or whatever. So I guess that's a form of rejection too, is that you miss out. Yeah. But I like that you were able to say that it was also a time thing, like just being able to remove it from like, oh, I wasn't the person who landed this well, or I didn't do this well enough, you know, instead of taking it as like, this is my fault, or I should have done something better to remember that rejection isn't necessarily about you specifically.

There's all these other factors that kind of play into it. Okay, are we ready to talk about how this is going to transform our relationship now? This is like the grand finale. This is what I've been waiting for. Okay, so first we have to acknowledge our feelings without judgment because rejection does sting and it does kind of make you question like what am I doing wrong sometimes it can make you question like is this even for me like am I even good at random stuff in the first place um rejection is painful because our brains can't tell the difference between emotional pain. I'm sorry.

Can I ask a question about validate your feelings? I know what that means. I know that it means that my feelings are valid, and maybe you're going to get to this, and if so, I'm sorry that I jumped ahead, but the way that we express our disappointment can come across as anger towards somebody else. It can cause depression. It can cause us to act out and say things that we really don't mean. So it's also, I think, the more we get used to being rejected, the less likely we are to act out in that way.

And I'm just wondering, in your experience, like, how do you tell people, okay, when you feel this way, what is the best way to express it?

I think being able to talk about it with the people around you whether that's your partner or maybe you've come with some friends or maybe even sometimes it's it's about not talking about it some people don't want to talk about it sometimes that just means you self-soothe um because it does kind of make you feel a little discombobulated in your body and I don't know about anybody else but if you're rejected in a public space sometimes what goes through your head is did someone else see this and then what do they think of me and so then you might also have some accompanying shame that goes with that.

So when you acknowledge and sort of push it away that you are feeling rejection and then that hurt and you're probably a little upset about it and you feel like, why did I do that? I put myself out there and nothing happened.

Or, you know, why didn't I see this signal a little clearer or I should have done something differently, whatever that is, sitting in it and acknowledging it and then saying nice things to yourself and letting other people come in and help to build up that resiliency muscle, whether that's their things, nice things, or they want to go dancing with you, or they want to share a drink with you, like to remember that there's lots of other ways to have fun in this environment, even if this particular thing didn't work out the way that you wanted it to.

So it's also about being able to shift that perspective to go, okay, that was something that felt gross and maybe a little hard, but I'm choosing look at the positive things right okay thanks that's helpful now you were talking about them being painful sorry i interrupted you yes i was no you're there for me so um the brain can't tell the difference between emotional pain and physical pain it receives it in same way. So when you are being rejected and it feels painful, it's because it is.

So not shying away from that and recognizing that it's okay to feel hurt and not to make yourself feel like, oh, I'm like less than or weak or I shouldn't feel this way. A lot of shoulds, you know, or it shouldn't hurt this much. Like, or I came with a partner. What's, what's wrong with me? You know, like, no, it's okay to feel hurt. It's a human emotion. We all experience it from time to time. Validate that. Um, and then do something kind for yourself. And so just making sure that you're not dismissing those feelings, that you're not seeing them as weak or unworthy. They're valid.

And then we're going to approach those feelings with compassion. Because you deserve to be taken care of. So a lot of times, the way that you show yourself compassion in that is through self-care and resilience. mechanisms. So like engaging with friends, talking to your partner, maybe go dance it out, go move your body, you know, maybe go for a swim. And that's fine.

Maybe being around people who remind you that you're here to have fun and even if someone said no that doesn't mean that the rest of everybody else is going to say no that no helps you get closer to your yes yeah and i think keeping things in perspective here because because we're we're going home together we're i'm going home together with my partner and prior to the lifestyle that's what i i mean that's what i yearned for on the weekend is is time alone with my partner so the con the consolation prize here is pretty good uh you know so i i've used that you know you know when we get rejected it's like oh well guess you're stuck with me tonight is that how you self-soothe yeah that's how it's self-soothe it's not a bad self-soothe coping mechanism i'm gonna say um that's probably a good one yeah yeah i think like when when couples are rejected do you ever have couples you know say i i don't understand what the big deal is like it does one couple feel the rejection more than the other and then they have to kind of reconcile that as a couple Yeah, sometimes...

you know, say, I don't understand what the big deal is. Like it, does one couple feel the rejection more than the other? And then they have to kind of reconcile that as a couple. Yeah. Sometimes one person feels it a little more intensely than the other person, or they felt like when one person in the couple felt like they had more of a connection than the other person in the couple did. And they're just kind of confused about where it went wrong.

And that's's okay because that's part of what happens in lifestyles there's differentiation of couple right so you get to see your person as an individual whole person and so their emotions are going to be reflective of that that they might feel things differently deeper or maybe not at all than their partner would. Yeah, and I think this idea about vulnerability, we were just talking about this actually at Desire. So many people that we were with were talking about how vulnerability is sexy. And in my opinion, when a woman is vulnerable with me, and that could be a couple of different ways.

It could be exposing her body to me. That's a vulnerable thing to do. Or it could be sharing something very intimate. You know, those sorts, when you feel comfortable enough to share something with somebody that makes you vulnerable, that opens up a new level of that relationship and that friendship, and that just makes the person more attractive. And I think sometimes in life, we are taught, and not to blame anyone in particular, society just says, stiff upper lip, don't admit that you're wrong, don't be vulnerable because it's a weakness.

But we find in the lifestyle when we're meeting new couples and friends that it's actually the opposite. It actually helps us to develop those types of relationships and friendships. Absolutely.

I here is a major turn on it's a major um connection piece um and it is not a weakness like renee brown did so much research on that and how it's actually a strength and how um it's the thing that helps us go oh you're human too oh thank god i can stop pretending let's be friends um and it kind of brings everybody together um so the more we practice being open and authentic um the more we can invite genuine connections into our lives which i think is kind of like the undercurrent goal of most of the connections in the lifestyle.

As we start to wrap up, I remember Catherine was at one of our events and she made the comment, and I know I'm going to get the numbers wrong, Miche, but you can probably correct me. She said it takes like 30 times or 29 times to be rejected before you get a yes.

And so you should be really happy every time you get a rejection because that's just one one more rejection rejection closer to absolutely i completely agree i mean if nothing else like dating apps are the biggest like social experiment on that there's you get so many no's before you get a yes and most people will tell you like on dating sites like it's just a numbers game and this is kind of the same thing it's just in vivo and so it feels a little different there's less separation between you and the other person and this and um but also when you get that yes you know that person actually is like not just there based off your picture and your profile which hopefully and probably are amazing um they're there because you are authentically Thank you.

you know that person actually is like not just there based off your picture and your profile which hopefully and probably are amazing um they're there because you are authentically an amazing person and they want to actually spend time with you which is also really cool um and I think the unique thing about being in the lifestyle is is when you meet people that you click with um it's pretty it's pretty genuine and you enjoy that even if it's just for one night so yeah and I think perseverance is really key here and patience because I think maybe people listen to us or they talk to friends and and it sounds like this is a really easy thing to do um and people it's funny, because we've been podcasting that for 10 years and people listen to our podcasts and they can listen to one every day.

And in their minds, we progressed pretty quickly, but it may have been two or three years by the time that we got to a place where we were more comfortable doing that. So I think just being patient and persevering through this and not letting a rejection take you out of the game, because if we did that, none of us would be in the game. Well said. Yeah, absolutely. And I like to describe it as a muscle. Like, it's something that you have to practice using and sitting in the discomfort.

You have to practice taking care of yourself when it starts to trigger those, like, ancient reptilian brain parts of you that kind of go, oh, my gosh, like, we're going to out of the tribe. And also, you know, asking yourself, like, if there is something that you could have changed, like asking yourself, like, what social signals are you turning outward, you know? Do you look engaging or do you look kind of closed off? And practicing that because it's a muscle and you'll eventually, it'll, it'll eventually get easier to stand in rejection and the emotions that come with it.

But in the beginning, it's going to be hard, like learning anything else that's new or you haven't had to do in a while. Yeah. And, and I can, I just want to encourage people because from our perspective, we just got back from a week at desireire and we were with 100 or 120 of our closest friends. And over the years, what we have learned is that everybody, anybody that does this lifestyle, that wants to try ethical non-monogamy can succeed. And succeed maybe isn't the right word, but can enjoy. Well, by succeed, you mean connect. Yes, can connect with other people.

And so no matter the age, the gender, the experience level, nationality, culture, body type, you know, we have met people who across that whole spectrum have been able to meet and connect with people. So I just want to encourage people that don't get down on yourself because there are a few couples out there for you. It's just practicing how to find them and how to make those connections and then understanding that rejection is a necessary part of being successful and making these connections.

So I have a little acronym that I'd like to share with everybody it's called gives and it's forgiving and accepting rejection so the G is for being gracious and I is for being interested is to validate and ease to have an easy manner so whether you are are giving rejection to be gracious in the words that you say and kind and letting someone else down essentially, um, and being interested in them and how they feel, because you're probably going to see them in the event quite a bit.

So, um, to validate that like, oh, this is is awkward and maybe this doesn't feel very great i don't feel great doing this either and like i don't want to lead you on um and then to make sure that your body posture is open and relaxed so that the other person recognizes like if we hang out at the pool later on like that's totally fine i just am not interested in playing right now with you um but it doesn't mean that i i'm not excited to see you or want to hang out with you um and then the same thing for accepting rejection is to be gracious because it is kind of hard to reject people um and to be interested in and who they are and what they have to say about that if there's anything that you can learn or like making sure that you're looking for the positive not just the negative in the rejection piece also to validate the connection that you guys have already created and to also have an easy manner in accepting that rejection to make sure that your posture is open and that you feel good.

So it's like, uh, so that you have less of that. Oh my gosh, are people watching me? Like, even if they're watching, I look really easy and I just accepted a rejection really well. Um, and to recognize that if you have like, if you feel yourself getting tense, right, or if you notice that your arms are crossed or that, you know, you are leaning out, that's okay. But it also might be a nice signal that you need to take care of your body and yourself for a couple of minutes just to begin to self-soothe and to tell yourself that it's okay.

because, because we're working on being able to hold that rejection. So the spike of intensity and emotion around it happens less and less and less. I also want to tell people that we don't owe, if you're turning somebody down, you don't owe them a five or six page paragraph, a double spaced letter as to why it didn't happen. You know, it's more, like you said, open posture, kind, no, not now, or no, not here, not with you at this time. You know, there's, and if people demand more, it's not up to us to give that to them.

And there have been some situations where people have told me that, hey, these people are demanding to know why, you know, we won't play with them. And really, that's not your responsibility to do. If you're polite about it and respectful about it and direct about it, that's all you owe somebody else when you want to just share that kind of news. Absolutely. I love that. Yes. Yes. Give is supposed to be short and simple and straight to the point because you do not owe anybody anything else.

And you want to make sure that you're standing in your values, whether you are the one giving or receiving the rejection. And that's it. All right. Well, anything else you wanted to add before we conclude here about rejection? I guess maybe, like, do a little wrap-up. So just reminding everyone that rejection is kind of hardwired into our brains, like the fear and the avoidance of it, it's kind of hard, it's hardwired. It doesn't have to dictate our reality.

And when we begin to understand that it's instinctual, we can choose whether or not we want to embrace all of those feelings that come with it and how long we want to stay in those feelings. and to make sure that you recognize that our brains are wired to pick up on the negative way more and more often than the positive. So it's practice of switching to the positive, of looking for all the ways that people have said yes to you in many different forms, rather than it's just one time with this couple that they have said no.

And giving yourself a lot of grace, reminding yourself that vulnerability is sexy as hell, and recognizing that every no leads you closer to your yes. Yeah, and I just want everyone to know that everyone gets rejected. It doesn't matter what your perception of others is. It doesn't matter what their physical appearance is or what you think they are. I can promise you, if they've been in the lifestyle for any period of time, everybody has been rejected. And that should give us all comfort that it happens to the best of us and it's going to happen. And we just need to learn how to accept it.

And I think you explaining to people why it happens and how we might be able to recognize that and validate those feelings and then talk about it, have your elevator speech, and then get right back out in the game again because well i mean there's been times where we like we've been talking to a couple and it and it doesn't work out either either we've been flat out rejected or it just kind of fizzles before it even gets to that decision point and then the next thing you know, you know, you, you change directions and you start talking to somebody else and there.

before it even gets to that decision point. And then the next thing you know, you change directions and you start talking to somebody else and they turn out to be the couple that you should have been with all along, right? So just shake off the rejection and don't let it ruin the rest of your night. That reminds me that we often get two kinds of emails from people who are new to this.

The first type is that oh we we keep getting rejected you know how what's wrong with us that's the one message the other message is oh we got the first three times we met a couple we connected we've got this figured out it's real easy but both of those perspectives are going to change what what if you're in this long enough so yeah none of us are immune to it absolutely yeah so everybody needs it you know and it's i love that yeah it's just part of the human experience all right well uh we want you, Miche, for doing all this work and preparing this talk on this podcast on rejection.

And we want to remind everybody that next month, Catherine is going to be with us. And we're going to do, Catherine wants to look at jealousy again. She was with us. We talked about jealousy on episode three and then katherine joined us on episode 41 um so evidently she's must have had a breakthrough in jealousy because she's going to come back and talk to us again well i think it's another one of those topics that sneaks up on you when you least expect it it's also like a crowd favorite like whether you're a newbie or you've had that like winning streak for a while.

And then all of a sudden, like something comes out of left field and you're like, Oh, now I'm jealous. You know, and I've never had, especially if you've gone through this for a while and you didn't have it. And then something comes out of like left field and now you have jealousy. Now you're like, what? This is not supposed to happen to me. And now I don't know what to do with it. So I think it's a repeat. It's a rinse and repeat because it's needed. Definitely. Okay. Well, thank you again. And we'll see you in a few months. We look forward to talking with you again.

And I know that our listeners appreciate expansive connection.

Mishay, we appreciate the time that you spend in our community and with us tonight and uh hope you have a good holiday season and we're looking forward to talking to you again in the future oh it's always a pleasure uh same to you all hopefully well we see you guys all the time and we hear from you all because we are in the community um but uh yes happy holidays to you all as well and anybody else who's listening so if you want to learn more about expansive connection you can visit their website at expansive connection.com or you can email them at connect at expansive connection.com or you can go to our website we got a thing.com and find expansive connection in our recommendation section.

They're also in our We Got a Thing community. So thanks for listening. We are Mr. and Mrs. Jones, and We Got a Thing. What's your thing? We'll see you next time.