How can we have more confident in the swingers lifestyle?
We all say that confidence in swinger couples is sexy but how does one 'just be confident'?
In today's episode we're covering all about being confident and having confidence in the swingers lifestyle. Cate is interviewing Catherine from Expansive Connection about the psychology and ins and outs of having confidence.
We're going to share some helpful guides on how to acknowledge your confidence or lack thereof, what you can do to prop yourself up, how this might be impacting your partner and more.
We finish up with a personal story each of how our confidence has impacted our swingers lifestyle journey.
Featured in this episode
Catherine from Expansive Connection https://www.expansiveconnection.com/enm
Expansive Connection Instagram https://www.instagram.com/expansive.connection.coaching/
Expansive Connection Twitter https://twitter.com/expanconnect
Other Links
Life Without ED book referenced by Catherine https://www.amazon.com/Life-Without-Ed-Declared-Independence/dp/0071422986
Cate’s new TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@wanderlustswingers
Wanderlust Swingers Instagram
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Transcript
you're listening to the wanderlust swingers podcast with aussie hosts kate and daryl if you're curious about exploring your sexuality or the swinging hot wifing and non-monogamous lifestyle you've definitely come to the right podcast or maybe you just love travel adventures either way we share our personal sometimes juicy sexy stories as well as swingers club and event reviews interviews with other sassy people and of course our global swinging adventures. We try to bring you a look into the diverse lifestyle that the swinging and non-monogamous community has.
We hope you enjoy, now let's get into the episode. G'day and welcome to episode 152 of the Wanderlust Swingers podcast. Today's episode is all about confidence. Now, confidence comes in so many shapes and forms and yes, pun intended, it does talk about body confidence. And in this episode, we do talk a lot about body confidence, I think because that's where most of us kind of focus our immediate attention on in the swinging lifestyle, particularly when you're getting into the lifestyle, but even as you are six or seven years in, like what we're experiencing right now.
But I mean, confidence does affect us in so many different ways. You know, if you're in a primary relationship with somebody and then you're joining the swinging lifestyle, all of a sudden you're putting yourself out there. All of a sudden you've got to go into a club, you've got to go into an event, you've got to flirt with people, you've got to create a conversation out of nowhere and try to form a connection out of nothing. And sometimes you've got to do all of that within a three-hour club space or over a weekend at a hotel takeover.
So whilst we do focus a lot about body confidence in this episode, I fully appreciate the fact that confidence is in so many different ways and affects us and impacts our lifestyle journey in so many ways. So today we do have Catherine from Expansive Connection who is talking to me a lot about confidence. And the reason that I brought Catherine onto the show today was because I don't feel like I can speak to confidence in a way that is psychologically appropriate.
Over the years, you know, we do talk about topics and of course we give our opinions and our thoughts and what we're going through in our own journey, but that doesn't necessarily translate to ways that we can help other people. And I'll give you an example. Confidence, people always say confidence is sexy, and it is. I mean, that's a given, right? But what we don't really tell people is how to be confident. And oftentimes, we're like, confident, sexy, just be confident. And to those people that say just be confident, I'm like, well, what the fuck does that mean?
Because quite honestly, at the moment, I am struggling.
I'm struggling with body confidence confidence I'm struggling with even just confidence of like walking up and talking to people in a club feeling like I'm engaged feeling like I've got something to say feeling like I'm exciting and interesting to talk to and so whilst I can share my journey with you I really can't give you like the ins and outs of actually how to overcome some of this hence insertion of Catherine from Expansive Connection who has an enormous amount of education and resources that she's going to provide us in today's episode so over the years we have spoken about confidence you know in our journey and right now I want to share with you and I do talk a little bit about this during the interview soon I am struggling as I just said before and I'm going to talk specifically about my body confidence right now because again I, I think that's the quickest outwardly focused thing that we have.
Am I pretty enough? Am I young enough? Am I too old? Am I too fat? Am I too thin? Am I too tall? Am I too short? All of these physical attributes that make us be less confident when we walk into a club or an event or even on a date. And if you follow me on social media, on Instagram or on Twitter, on TikTok, I've been talking a lot about my health journey lately. And I've been talking a lot about confidence lately, my confidence or lack thereof. I've gained over the past few years because, you know, the shit, the shit creeps up. I'm not going to lie. I've gained 10 kilos.
So I'm 10 kilos heavier than what I used to be, and so this is really impacting my ability to feel sexy, it's impacting my ability to feel confident, and that is both in and outside of the lifestyle. So some of these things that happen to us in the lifestyle, be positive or negative, can impact us in other areas of our life, and confidence certainly is one of those things, you know, if you're not feeling your best, if you're not feeling your greatest and best, then yeah, you're going to struggle in other areas of your life. You might not ask for that promotion.
You might not dress as nice or sexy when you're out, you know, just even picking up your groceries. You know, you might not do your hair and makeup as much or whatever that looks like for you. And that impacts, right? And it also impacts your intimacy with yourself, masturbation.
It impacts your intimacy with your partner as well if you're not feeling confident you're not feeling sexy and so i've really been struggling with this lately and so i wanted to share my journey with you so if you do follow me on social media you'll see that i'm posting a lot about that i am now doing something about it right now i am going to personal trainers twice a week much to my shagrin because that shit sucks and i hate for the personal trainers out there. Like, thanks guys for, you know, helping us out and keeping us motivated. So I'm doing that twice a week.
I'm also trying to run once or twice a week and I'm trying to be more aware of my food and alcohol consumption. So although I'm sitting here saying to you I'm 10 kilos heavier and over the years I've kind of been, you know, floating back between like I'm doing something about it, but let's all all be honest we know when we're doing something about it and when we're just lying to ourselves we're doing something about it but legitimately right now I am on a better pathway to do something about it and I'm looking at my health journey. So with all that being said I am struggling.
I've noticed that I'm not wearing clothes that that I would feel sexy in as much anymore. In fact I don't even own as much anymore because, again, I've kind of gone up clothing sizes and I just haven't bothered to replenish my sexy wardrobe because I don't feel sexy. I don't feel worthy of it, so why would I get those things for myself? And if you're out there kind of feeling the same way, then, oh, man, it's a lot, right? This episode, I know it sounds quite heavy. It's not. It's going to get lighthearted.
Catherine and I kind of talk of talk about like smacking asses and dancing and drinking and trying to get in that sexy mode when we're talking about the interview but i just want to give you guys a sense of why i'm doing this episode and why i'm doing it right now in august of 2022 it's because again over the years i've kind of floated backwards and forwards between this but right now i think i'm probably at my lowest level of confidence that i have seen in our whole seven years in the Swingin' Lifestyle.
So if you're feeling not confident, or maybe if you're feeling, if you are feeling super confident, we would love to hear from you. I hope this episode helps you. I hope it resonates on some level with you. If you are on a health journey right now, please connect with me on social media, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. I would love to hear from you. I would love for you to share your health journey with me and help to hype each other's hype girl, hype man, hype person. Definitely all about that. So please do connect with me on social media.
But otherwise, I'm going to head out now and I'm going to come back with Catherine from Expansive Connection. Great interview. And there's also going to be some items in the show notes where we give the links for Catherine. But Catherine also mentioned some great resources in this episode. So I really hope that you enjoy it and I'll be back after. Hi guys, and welcome back. So we are continuing our conversation about body confidence or really confidence in general, specifically within the swinging lifestyle. And I'm now joined with Catherine from Expansive Connection. Welcome back, Catherine.
It's been a while. Yes. Thanks for having me back. It's great to see you and hear your voice. Yeah. Now, if you haven't heard the previous episodes on our podcast, or certainly even the We Got a Thing or Normalizing Non-Monogamy podcast, Catherine is a licensed therapist, relationship coach, and a yoga teacher. She has a BS in health promotion, minor in psychology, master's degree in community counseling, and runs the expansive connection coaching services. And all of the links for Catherine's going to be in today's show notes.
Catherine, the reason I wanted to get you on is because when we talk about confidence in the lifestyle, oftentimes we just say, just be confident. And that's not necessarily something that you can just pull out of your hat. And so I wanted to get you on the podcast today to, I guess, talk a little bit more about this from maybe someone who has a little bit more experience from the counseling and psychology side of it. Absolutely. I'd be happy to. And certainly want to say that one of the reasons that I was very drawn to saying yes to your invitation is specifically about us to Thank you.
And certainly want to say that one of the reasons that I was very drawn to saying yes to your invitation is specifically about this, us discussing confidence with body image issues, because you and I have talked at events and shared that we both have struggled with this. And this is a body image is something I've struggled with, honestly, sadly, since I was a tiny little six-year-old child and have struggled with disordered eating and body image issues through my life. And I'm definitely at the healthiest place I've ever been.
But I do, as I mentioned to you, always like to own that if I'm going to be talking about something, especially with my professional hat on. So I guess what I'd like to say is my professional hat is on, but I'm also here as a real person who has struggled with this and is still figuring it out day to day. And so I want to make sure that people hear that I have both hats on today.
Yeah, we were just actually talking about that before we hit record and we were saying just because you have all of these qualifications does not make you impervious to feeling these feelings because at the end of the day, you're still a human. So I appreciate that. And we're actually going to get into some story time here towards the end of the segment here. I'm going to share a story time. Catherine's going to share a story time. And so we're going to help you guys understand that we have these feelings too.
And certainly that's the actual reason I wanted to do this episode was because I'm struggling at the moment. But before we get into that, I have a question actually from a listener. And I thought this would be a good way for us to start to, I guess, break down some of those stigmas on who actually has body confidence. So this gentleman says, I'm a big dude. I've always been big, large frame, muscular build. But in the past few years, I've been adding on some belly that I'm not proud of. I don't look unhealthy or anything. I'm just bigger than I've been in the past.
So my question is, how do you deal with your own body images? This feels like it's typically a female issue, but I am struggling with it. So, I mean, there's a lot to unpack there and I know we're going to start to kind of dig into some of these things, but, you know he's saying he's put a little weight on, I mean, how does he, how do people deal with their own body image issues? Right. Well, first of all, let's acknowledge that this is a man writing this and certainly acknowledging that body image issues have often been in the realm of the ones with female bodies. And it makes me sad.
I would love it if half of our population didn't have the absolute mental energy siphoning waste of time and energy that worrying about body image creates. I wish that half of our population and our male comrades didn't have that. That would be my wish. The fact is that is not the case. And I think that the fact that we have not been talking about it, it makes me even more sad because it's got to have been lonely for them.
I mean, most any of us can go to a girl's night and start up a bitch fest about our bodies and how sad it is that we feel this way and then have a few drinks and try to make everybody feel better. And at least we've got some community and some camaraderie. And I think it must be really lonely for men to not have that. So I'm so glad that he wrote to you and will be a voice for other men who struggle with this. So that first. And then I think the other piece that's important to unpack is my body has changed.
And as you and I talked about before we started recording, issues with body image and eating sadly are not ones that are very often quote cured or go away completely because unlike a substance addiction like alcohol or drugs you don't have an abstinence model here we're not going to abstain from eating and then we also have aging that comes in and so what we always ate for years and years we eat the thing. And all of a sudden we're putting on weight. So this is in the field, sometimes called a process addiction or one that really is with us always. And it's, it comes and goes.
And one thing that can be very frustrating is if you feel like you've licked it and you're like, you know, I'm feeling confident and I like my body where it is and all is good. And then something happens. You have surgery or childbirth or aging or vacation or a knee injury, whatever it is. And then your body starts to change. Sometimes it can feel like you're back at square one and that can be really frustrating. Like I thought I'd figured this thing out. And I think it's important to normalize that if you have struggled with this, chances are it will come back at some point.
If you haven't, which also happens for a lot of men, like, you know, eat all they want, assholes. And then they look just like they want to, assholes. And then all of a sudden, you know, middle age sets in and that belly comes on. So it is something that you'll continue to struggle with. Now, for me, this was like the worst news ever. Wait, this thing, I'm going to have it my whole life? Yes. But then also there was a relief and a normalizing in when it comes back around. It's like, all right, here we go. This again.
And then instead of being frustrated that it's back, I can reach back into the past and use tools that I've used before. So those are two things I want to unpack. Let's see for him specifically, like, can you read that last bit again, just to, cause I got so excited about the male part. No, I can, but I also do want to say that you're, you're right.
I think there is power in knowing that even though you've been slightly derailed, that you've done things before, you know, and I, I've been kind of leaning on that right now with my weight loss you know I know I've done this before I know it's yes probably 10 years ago it was easier but I know mentally and physically I'm capable of it so that there is I guess an element of power in that but he says so my question is for you how do you deal with your own body image issues it seems like it's typically a female thing but I'm but I'm struggling well actually I'm going to put that a little bit to you, Kate, because he's asking you specifically, and you've been so honest about your journey.
When you sit there and you realize that, kind of what is your first step? Do you go backwards and beat yourself up? Do you jump forward and move right into a regime of working on it? Which one's the first thing that happens for you? Unfortunately, I have a lot of negative self-talk. So I really dig myself into a hole and I stay in there. And unfortunately, I point the finger at myself. I look in the mirror and I say horrible things to myself.
And I know that, and I think you and I have actually said this before, that you would never allow somebody else to say these things to you, but we allow them to be said about ourselves, which just ridiculous so i tend to beat myself up and i'm i'm in a moment right now where i have my good days and my bad days some days i feel like my my power bar is up and what i mean from that is that i have the ability to have positive self-talk and affirmations and things like that if i'm having a down day when my power bar is a little bit depleted i I find it extremely hard.
And then I go into those self-talk modules. So I'm kind of bouncing between the two, unfortunately for me at the moment. Yes. Same. I go the same way first. So let me start with, I used to coach cross country, middle school and high school kids. And in doing this, I watched over and over and saw this in myself that usually there are two kinds of people when they get passed in the race, half the people go slower, half the people go faster. And some people call this the carrot or stick motivation, right? And so I'm definitely one that goes slower.
So when somebody would pass, I would just go, oh, well, see, what am I doing out here? I'm not a good runner. They're going to be warming up the bus by the time I get there. And blah. So now all this mental energy is literally holding me back from the goal at hand. And I mean, it was wild and sad to watch from the sidelines of the kids. And you could just see their face fall. You could almost watch the gears turning in their head and watch their feet slow down. Now here's the other annoying irony about that.
When we are at our worst and we're beating ourselves up inside with the lead pipe, what do many of us turn to? Food and alcohol to make us feel better. Oh, interesting. Yes. And so how do all those yummy carbohydrates that make us feel good hormones in our brain and the alcohol, how does that help the issue at hand? Of course, it makes it even harder for us. So I think that noticing which one you are. In the fall, when you put your jeans sudden they aren't, they don't work anymore. And you realize, oh, right. All summer I've been wearing elastic pants.
So I didn't notice that I put this weight on or whatever. And what happens when you pull the jeans on and they're tight? I think that that is a critical moment of just observer self is what I call it, listening for what's happening in there. And so, and then if you realize that you go straight to this just awful negative self-talk, just notice it and observe it. And as you pointed out, Kate, it's almost like when we can cultivate this observer self and we can say, what, what is, what am I saying to myself? Noticing it and then thinking, man, that is nasty.
I would not say that to my husband, wife, spouse, play partner, dog, the person, my neighbor that I can't stand. I wouldn't even talk to that person this way. And so then now don't let that be the next lead pipe in the other hand to start beating yourself up with it. But it's just more of this observation of, wow, listen to this self-talk and imagine the energy that that is taking. And if I put that energy towards something that's going to make me feel better, how much faster I might get out of this mess.
But we've got to be careful if we cultivate the observer self that it doesn't become just another way to beat ourselves up. It's been there. That's how most people are. Okay, I'm doing this. Now what? Right, Right. And I think, I mean, body confidence or lack thereof, it comes in many ways. And I think if we take it specifically within the lifestyle realm, it can be something that stops us from messaging somebody online. Like as simple as actually even sending a message along. They're too good for me. They're too thin for me. Whatever that looks like old, young, blah.
I mean, it can be as simple as that. And then obviously it can be right through to going on a date, going to a club, going to an event. I can't go to that event because they're all 30-some, 40-something, you know, super fit people. And so we put these barriers up and stop ourselves. So I guess what I want to talk about next then is, okay, we've acknowledged it. We know what's happening. We're trying to stop the self-talk.
But is there anything that we can put into practice when we are getting ready to go on a date or at a club like some sort of ways that we can stop some of this behavior i guess in its tracks yes um yes i'm going to go back just for a second to the self-talk as a as an action item okay so when we do this observer self when we start to notice this there there's a really interesting practice of personifying that that critical voice Thank you. When we do this observer self, when we start to notice this, there's a really interesting practice of personifying that critical voice.
There's a fantastic book that I hope you'll put in the show notes called Life Without Ed, and Ed is capitalized E-D. And in this book, it's written by a woman who's recovering from an eating disorder and her therapist. And when she started with this therapist, he asked her to personify her eating disorder as an abusive spouse. And she's a straight woman. So she personified it as an abusive boyfriend. And she was like, my brain was so exhausted from all the negative self-talk that I had no creativity left.
So the only thing I could think to name this abusive boyfriend was Ed for eating disorder. The other interesting thing about this book is all the chapters are one to two pages only because she said, if you're really wasting your energy on beating yourself up, you don't have the mental focus or the attention span to read a full chapter. That's true. That's true. That's that, that's that power bar again. You know what I mean? Jeez. Yeah, you're right. That makes so much sense. So think about it.
If you've been in a, in a negative self-talk thing about your body and then you sit down and you're like, okay, well at least I can work. Then you don't have the attention span because your brain's exhausted. Now you've got a whole nother thing to get yourself up about. Right.
So anyway, in this book, she goes through her long process of, really it's managing ed if you will it's not getting rid of him but managing him and so the first step is she has to write down what he's saying to her and it's hard it's bad enough to just notice how nasty we are to ourselves but to see it in writing oh it's horrible and then she has to show it to her group of other in her group therapy sessions and her counselor and to own how nasty this this part of her is to her so it's not how nasty she is to herself but this personification of this part of me is really railing me is really being nasty and so then it becomes and then he encourages her to have a dialogue with her.
So she writes what Ed says, and then she has to write back. And the beautiful part about this book, which I recommend for anyone that has ever struggled with body image issues, eating disorders, or loves someone that does. So pretty much everyone, because it's going to explain a lot if you are the partner of a person that struggles with this. But what is amazing about it is you see the trajectory of how like the Ed doesn't change. Ed is always constant in his nasty berating, but what changes is how she responds to him. And it's really inspiring because at first she's like, you're right.
You're right. I suck. Yeah. You know what? You're right. I ate two Oreos. I can't go to the party. I'm not good enough to go to the party. I shouldn't go because all the people are going to be able to tell that I didn't do what I was supposed to do. And I'm sure my jeans are going to be tight. You're right. I'm just going to stay home. And then it'll see like, we'll be like, so why don't we just go ahead and finish the Oreos? And she's like, yeah, good idea. So she sees it then, and then she starts to fight him back and she's like, well, I mean, maybe two Oreos isn't the end of the world.
He's like, not for a normal person, but for you it is. So, he ups his ante, right? And you see that. And by the end, he says something like that. And she's like, oh, for fuck's sake, shut up. I'm going out to see my friends. And so, you see this trajectory. So, back to your question about when someone feels, you know, almost like has some anxiety or a bit of paralysis about hitting send on a message or reaching out to someone or going to an event or, oh, well, those are skimpy outfits and I don't look good in those anymore or whatever.
I think that an interesting step could be writing these things down and dialoguing with them, checking their facts. Are you sure that every single person at this party is fit? Oh, okay. Let's go look at the guest list. Let's go see if we can prove that. And so this starting, instead of this internal monologue, that's just beating you up, first step, make it a dialogue. Yeah. That's, I mean, well, really interesting. I actually, I remember one time I was sitting down in Thailand and I did a very similar thing.
I bought this like tiny little notebook and little pen from like the gift shop and I was like, I'm going to sit here. And I was actually on my own. I spent two or three days there just kind of, you know, went to Thailand, found myself, bought the pants kind of deal. And, yeah, I did that practice and reading back through it, it was horrific.
But I do want to talk about some of the things that I do to get ready for clubs and stuff like that but you you touched on something that I did have written down and so it flows really well I want to talk about it when this these people or myself for example I'm writing out the these negative self-talks that I'm having and I show them to my partner so you're you're not alone in this I think unless you're obviously a single but a lot of the time these body confidence issues they impact us of course they do but we aren't alone in this.
I think unless you're obviously a single, but a lot of the time these body confidence issues, they impact us. Of course they do, but we aren't alone in this. Our partner unfortunately gets dragged in and they get dragged in in ways where again, maybe you're in a club situation and your partner's like, let's go talk to that couple. And then you're like, well, they're skinnier and younger than me. So I don't really want to do that. Or, you know, you're not confident. You don't want to approach them.
So that impacts you and your time and your partner partner but I think also sharing some of these negative self-talks also it's going to really impact your partner and I think a lot of partners would immediately go into this solution-driven mindset of like well you're not that or whatever but I mean right now I'm not at all body confident and I could show if I showed you my notebook god I would hate for you to see what I would be saying to myself. It would be really embarrassing, but that's impacting Daryl. So what impact does this really have to our partners?
And I guess, is there a way that we can try to help them understand without them going into that savior mode? Sure. And I'll also say, I think the other part that's, that's difficult, can be difficult for the partner, which then can have a negative impact on the third entity. I like to call it the relationship is let's think about it like this way. Let's say, you know, beautiful Kate ready, you know, sitting there, Daryl comes in and says, beautiful Kate, let's go to the club. And beautiful Kate says, no, I'm not beautiful. Well, two things can happen.
One, Daryl hears that the person that he's chosen isn't hot no i don't believe that i'm hot and he's like i chose you i think you're hot so it's almost like it's a kind of a funny way that we are we're tearing our partners down and the other one this is one that my husband in story time i'm gonna tell you about but he started to get really frustrated because his assessment of my beauty and my attractiveness stopped mattering in his eyes. He's like, I think you're hot. I'm like, yeah. You have to say that kind of thing, you know?
And it really started to get to him that I wasn't believing him or I wasn't able to bask in that admiration and that attraction that he had for me. And I think that can really start to have an impact on the partner and the relationship.
And then, yes, of course, when we're talking about being wingmen to each other and in our wild adventures, then yeah, if I'm not feeling confident and I'm this like, cloud, then not only is it potentially going to affect him because I'm not willing to get up and go to the other side of the club to talk to them, but also there's this wah, wah cloud around me that is probably not really drawing all the boys to the yard, if you know what I'm saying. True. It is true.
You can tell when somebody is not feeling themselves, if they're not having a good time at a club, you can tell when they're kind of shut off a little bit yeah I mean you can it's it's a physical thing that you can see when you're in a swingers club or at an event or whatever that looks like and then of course the irony I think we've all seen this before that the person you know let's say that I'm doing that I've got that cloud over me of not feeling confident and then somebody looks at me, they might see me as snobby, unapproachable, judging others.
It's almost like it's the self-sabotage, like, oh, nobody would want to be with me. And then it's this self-fulfilling prophecy of like, well, nobody wanted to be with me, not because I'd eaten too many Oreos last night. It's actually because I'm putting off this energy that can very easily be mistaken for I don't approach me. I'm the ice princess or something like that. But we then take that information as see, I'm too fat. They didn't like me because I'm because I've got a muffin top or whatever it is.
But a lot of times it's just that energy we're putting out might be completely different than what we think we're putting out. I was actually going to say that during the we're reading out the gentleman's message to us as well the same thing. I actually wrote it down and I said you go to a club then you get rejected and then you're like well there's the proofs in the pudding so I'm going to go back and you know I was absolutely right and all this negative self-talk comes back. When you say that, like evidence is that word. So yes. So, okay.
See, nobody, nobody came up to see me or I got rejected. So there it's evidence. And this is where that dialogue is so important. Is it actually evidence? Can we prove without a shadow of a doubt that that is why we were rejected because we put on a little weight in our belly. And that's where that dialogue of saying, let's do some fact checking, or let's come up with three alternate, because we don't know, we can't go to the source of this person that rejected him to know for sure why.
So we have to, but if we can create reasonable doubt in the brain of three possible other reasons, maybe my breath was bad. Maybe, you know, that woman is bi and was really not interested in another dude. There are so many other things, but we need to fight that idea that it's quote evidence. Yeah, that's true. I think a lot of the times we do make up the stories in our mind as to why people are rejecting us. I mean that, and this is something I say to people, I mean, sidebar, but don't be mean to people on social media because you have no fucking idea what those people are going through.
Horrible things happen in our everyday lives and you've attacked that person because of something.
Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox about that do you have any ways when when you're about to go to a club about to go to an event do you have any ways that things that you do to try and get yourself in that mindset so some of the things i do is i'll put on some music i'll make myself a little playlist i'll have a playlist where i'm putting on some music whilst I'm getting ready for the club so upbeat music things that I can kind of be you know dancey and sing to and things like that I'll make myself a drink absolutely I know we spoke about crutches earlier but I will make myself a drink and the other thing I do is I like to have a couple of different options for clothing because Lord knows you can throw a tantrum at the drop of a hat when you're getting ready to go to a swingers club and like all of a sudden there's an extra fat roll there or you liked that outfit last week you don't like it's it's horrible today you got nothing to wear blah so what i like to do is yeah put myself a drink put some music and i like to have a couple of different options for clothing something that's going to make me feel okay in that night and i like to probably arrange those clothings before you mentioned skimpy clothing so if you've got really you know, if my outfits are all skimpy then and I'm not feeling good in them that's not going to be great so I kind of scale my outfits to where I might have one that's a skimpier outfit I've got one that's maybe a little bit risque but something that I might feel comfortable with and then I've kind of got a go-to outfit generally where I'm like if all hell is breaking loose I wear my leather pants and my glittery top and like that is it because that is my tried and true wear it all the time I think Daryl's like get a new outfit Kate for fuck's sake like so I kind of have those so is there anything similar that you do actually very a lot of them are very similar a couple of things that I'll mention absolutely the music and it needs to be music that I feel that makes me want to move and dance.
And so it gets me in my body and less in my head. So, you know, if I'm, and if all goes well, having a little extra time to be able to get a little dancey, I also, and this one can be a little, I think people have got to decide which way they go with this. Often try to have a little time walking around the hotel room naked and dancing naked. Now this one could be, you'd be like, but wait, wouldn't that make it worse? I had this interesting experience in my twenties. It was the first nude beach I went to and I was having, I had a really rough month of body image stuff.
So I was like, Oh God, I'm going to a nude beach, but we were in Hawaii and it it was like, Oh, we got to go to this. Right. And we went. And at the end of the day, I realized that I felt better about my body than I had in months. And I'm like, what is up with that? So I was talking to a friend of mine who went with me about that. And one of the things we came up with is so often for me, the rubric of how nasty to be about my body is how I fit in clothes or what might pop up and around the clothes.
So if I had a bathing suit on and I leaned over and my belly went over it, well, that fuck, you know, send me home in a mumu, right? But when I'm just bending up to get my drink and there's nothing to compare my body against that bikini or the tight jeans or whatever, then there was less, um, again, less rubric to judge myself. Then of course, being at a new beach and seeing all the shapes and sizes walking around, at least seeming pretty comfortable and confident that was really freeing and amazing too.
So that was a place that shifted for me because I would always, if I was feeling before that, if I was in a bad space about my body, I would avoid mirrors whilst naked at all any chance I could get. But that was a shift. Like, you know what, if I'm naked, I'm not noticing. I don't have that push against. So dancing around hotel naked with a good playlist that makes me want to shake my booty.
Definitely trying to get into a little bit of like flirty connection with my husband, knowing what parts of my body he really likes and kind of, you know, maybe rubbing those up against and just getting a little bit of that, I guess, two things reminding myself that, oh gosh, worst case, I'm going to be right back here with this outfit, my birthday suit on with this hot man that happens to love this birthday suit. So anything beyond this is gravy. Like this is not a bad way to start or in the evening. Absolutely.
I agree about the outfits and bringing more than you need having that go-to for me, what happens for my go-to outfit is something that ironically does it.
It's like, it purposely doesn't draw attention to me it's usually something i fly under the right yeah like black dress just kind of go into like i'm gonna go for super classy instead of like super flashy sometimes i want to be flashy sometimes i want that classy so that it's like if i need to kind of like work myself up i've got a little bit of a, yeah, fly under the radar, but it also then challenges me to go to that party, not leading with my skin, but leading with the other attributes about me that maybe I can draw from on confidence. So, you know, I do think I'm a good conversationalist.
I do love to nerd out about things and kind of come into it with that way where it's not like I'm going to be necessarily the one that they're looking at who's got the most skin, but almost to stand out in a different way. I don't know if that's making sense. Does that make sense how I'm saying that? It does, because I think that, I mean, if you're not feeling great, the least the last thing you really want to do is walk in with this giant sparkly headdress on and like a full length gown and six inch heels. You know what I mean?
Because you're just going to draw more attention and then you're going to be, again, making that story up. Are these people looking at me because they think I look good or are these people looking at me because I look fucking ridiculous? I'm too old for this outfit. I've got a belly hanging over the sides, you know. Right. But yeah, that go-to outfit that has brought you confidence in the past. And for, again, for whatever reason. And for me, that's that classy black dress. Like I know I can, I know I can pull that off in, in any setting.
And so if I feel confident that I can pull that off, that's the first step of the confidence that I'm trying to have and to exude in these, in these events. And with your partner, then would there be any recommendations you would give?
I mean, we spoke before about how you, you were rubbing your body parts up and I'm sure there's probably many people that want to hear more about that, but is there any response that your partner could be giving you during these moments of, you know, they can obviously, I guess if there's a pattern like pouring yourself a drink, doing the music, they probably probably know what's happening so is there anything that your partner can do or recommendations you would give to people to help when you're going through those motions i think that um one thing i say to people all the time is is really looking for specificity in their affection or complimenting and so not like oh baby you look hot like i mean that's great to hear don't get me wrong I never don't want to hear that I'm hot but if it's like man I love watching your ass jiggle when you dance that is such a turn-on for me or like Brett will come up and like grab underneath like to my but he calls him he calls him the hot ass butt creases that's what he calls those and so he loves to like get his his hands up under and like, while I'm dancing and he's like, I love to feel these hot ass butt creases while you're dancing.
Now notice that that is probably the, certainly on my body, the biggest and jiggliest part, which coming from, you know, skinny white girl culture was a, has been a hard thing for me to embrace, but like really leaning into the part of me that he likes and especially it's helpful that he happens to like the part that my inner dialogue or my inner ed if you will has always shamed me for it it's really helpful for me when my partner um is specific about a compliment um or man when you're when you're really like when you're down dancing like that i can see that line of your hamstring and uh and and quadricep and that is so hot or I don't know.
a compliment. Or man, when you're, when you're really like, when you're down dancing like that, I can see that line of your hamstring and quadricep and that is so hot. Or, you know, just being specific about that, watching him revel in, in me having fun and being sexy and really looking for the, that, that glowing way that he looks at me. That is lovely.
Now this could be more difficult if he were also having some confidence issues where maybe he doesn't have that extra to give me when we can come together and do that because he'll do that to you like oh god does this shirt look okay i don't know and when we can kind of like let that go and lean into each other to feel that that juicy connection i think then it sends us out the door certainly with more confidence about how the night's going to end and it might change but we know that the way the night started and the way that if it ends that way that it would still be a wonderful evening amen let's do a story time so we can get a little bit personal with people here and i guess try to explain that, you know, like I said before, we're not impervious.
We don't have these like body confidence shields that we walk around with all the time. I have been struggling with body confidence for quite a while now and I actually didn't realize just how long, you know, and I think back to our conversations over the years and I'm like, actually, it's been quite a while. And you asked me earlier, which way do I go?
Where do I get get to a point where I you know the carrot or the stick and at the moment I've decided that I'm done with feeling this way so I am actually currently making some some healthy and some good choices and I've lost a couple of kilos and I'm going to personal training twice a week so I'm in the mindset of change but don't get me wrong there are days then where I I step back a little bit and I i lose a little bit and i've got to come back forward again but it is it is really difficult for me at the moment when i'm seeing profiles online and we're going to the clubs especially in europe and especially in amsterdam not in amsterdam but in the netherlands right because women here are very tall they're very slender like that is how people are built in this country and i felt the same way when i was in singapore um that i was just this bigger person you know not not petite and small there so so i'm struggling at the moment so we went to a club recently and i do i felt just very out of place and i could feel myself not wanting to engage with people and i could feel myself having these negative self-talks and of course like we said before that's then people looking at you going what's this lady's problem and also like you know I'm speaking English to people as well so I'm already kind of in this mindset of like oh god I'm forcing foreign people other people to talk English I'm the foreigner and right and then you know on top of that I'm like god I'm not this you know tall slender woman and you know I'm a little shorter and chubbier and these sorts of things.
So something I've really been trying to make myself do lately is force myself to talk to people. And I guess what that is kind of helping me to see is that, again, with body dysmorphia or the way we see ourselves, removing those, I guess, ways that we expect other people are going to relate to us. So what I'm saying, oh, that person wouldn't want to talk to me, like you said before, the evidence, right? That person doesn't want to talk to me because I'm X, Y, Z. So I'm actually forcing myself to walk up and engage with these people.
And then I guess trying to see that evidence of actually they're talking to me.
So clearly all of those negative things I'm saying about saying about myself are probably exaggerated now I don't want to say they're not there because I am heavier and I'm sure some people absolutely would be looking at me going she's carrying too much weight for me fine everybody has different preferences on what they think is attractive but what I'm seeing is that an overall you know I do have other things to add that that is uh you know greater than the sum of my flabbier body parts I don't know what are your thoughts on that yeah well a couple of things first of all even just the self-talk of I'm a little chubbier right now it's interesting this is something that my partners helped me with he would say curvier and for him that's a positive now again skinny white girl culture I just was like oh that's just a nice way for you to tell me i'm fat like totally believe that but then it was interesting one of the benefits of getting into the lifestyle and being ethically non-monogamous is the way we opened up our dialogue about frankly objectifying the people we see around us like in a restaurant or like what do you think do you think she's hot do you think he's hot or whatever we And we're, you know, clearly just objectifying their bodies.
Sorry for, sorry, people in the restaurant, but for our relationship, it was, it was wonderful to be open like that. And for my sense of, I'm very much a grew up with just horrible issues with perfectionism and all that. And so I can be, I can have these very exacting tendencies. Like the only way to be attractive is this one exact way. And when I get in, then of course, the more body shit I'm dealing with, the more perfectionistic I get, the more exacting my standards get.
Well, one of the things that was interesting is to watch and kind of see women through Brett's eyes once he started talking to me about it. And it's like, and to hear the words, I mean, she could, she could definitely be attractive, but she's too skinny. And I was like, wait, what is that, is that a thing? Like, really? Truly never believed that somebody could be too skinny, of course, unless it's like, you know, something like a concentration camp kind of thing, like where it's truly medically too thin. But I really didn't know that there was an end to that rubric, which is so sad.
But hearing him say like, oh my gosh, look at her. Look at her ass. She's so curvy. That is so hot. I would love to dance up on her. And I'm like, and there's no reason for him to lie. We're in there just doing this, this conversation. So I will say that that was really helpful for me to change that vernacular of like chubby to curvy, and then to see, to be mindful of my exacting standards. And I hear that.
That's something you and I've talked about that we share, that we can get so exacting and so perfectionistic that if you think about a bullseye and the only way to hit it is the very center, well, man, at some point you probably don't even want to try because it's like so hard to get that tiny little bullseye versus if we can think about the whole target and if a dart hit anywhere in there we could actually take some of that as as some confidence building or some attract you know feeling more attractive or whatever i think that that's i just want to make sure that we're careful about those exacting tendencies.
Yep. Fair point. Fair point. Um, I, those were on the nicer side of the things I say about myself. So when you picked up on that word, I'm like, Jesus Christ, I'm glad I didn't say the real thing that I thought. Takes one to know one dear. Yeah. So thank you for that. Uh, what about yourself?
You mentioned you got a story time from, earlier i'd love i'd love to hear it yeah so this was a pretty um monumental moment in my shift in confidence about my body and it was right it was maybe the year before um we stumbled into the lifestyle so we were you know parents of a young kid i don't know i'd probably probably been she was maybe four so four years post baby and I certainly wasn't like way out of shape or anything but it just wasn't you know I didn't feel as as fit and thin as I used to and and whatever and and also we'd just been so focused on that but we had a weekend we had a night away in a close by city and we were going to go to a concert and we pretty quickly once we had a kid learned to do reverse date nights where we would always go to a hotel you know if we're home or go to hotel whatever we'd sit and have a few drinks and we would have sex and then we would go out so it's like let's do the important thing first let's not go eat a big meal and not want to jiggle it around or you know never yeah or be too tired and then come home and not yeah exactly so we're doing our reverse date night so we have a couple of drinks and we get in bed and we're getting all sexy and he was like god you're such a hot mama and I went I mean really like really you think so I was like I'll try to believe you and my husband those of you that have met, you'll be surprised to hear he was this mean about it because he is such a calm, easygoing guy.
And he's about to get laid, P.S. And he sits up and he's like, stop that shit, Catherine. And I was like, what? Like, you know, like, and he's like, I, it breaks my heart that you have that reel in your head all the time that you have to keep it out of our fucking bed. And I was like, what? And he said, the thing I have always loved about you is your confidence. 20 pounds up, 20 pounds down. I don't give a fuck. When you walk in the room and you feel confident, I can't get my hands off of you. And I watch everybody in the room be affected by your confidence, not how much you weigh.
And he said, I know it's a struggle outside of the bedroom and I will do anything I can to help you with it, but you cannot have it poison this. And I just kind of looked at him and he was like, I'm just, I'm not going to do it anymore. I don't want to hear about your body image issues while we're naked. I don't want to hear about it when we're having sex because all it is is killing my boner. I was like, wow. Okay. So we, I was like, okay.
And you know, we, we stopped and kind of, we ended up getting it back together because I was able to hear the love behind the, where he finally had to get nasty enough for me to listen. So we went out to the concert and we talked about the conversation at dinner before the concert. And he said, just do a thought experiment. He's like, I know you're feeling like you're a little heavy right now, whatever. He's like, I want you to go into this concert and I want you to imagine that you're 20 pounds lighter. Like you've had enough drinks. Just imagine.
I mean, I only had like two, but he's like, you've had that just imagine. And he said, and I want you to look around and I want you to assume that the men you see think you're attractive because I can promise you that I'm watching. And at least seven of the 10 that we walked past, look at you. You just aren't noticing because you assume that you aren't head turning worthy. He said, so I want you to go and I want you to look for head turning and I want you to look for interest. And I did. And we were beside this guy in the concert.
And I just kind of was like, it was a little bit like you and I talked about a little bit of a fake it till you make it. I'm like, I'm going to assume that this guy's attracted to me. And I started engaging with him on that assumption. We flirted all night long. And this is before the lifestyle. I kept looking at Brett like, is this okay? And he was just because he could see what it was doing for me. And we left and I mean, nothing happened, but we left and he was like, do you understand what I mean now?
He was of course getting a lot of, I told you so energy, which was fine because I was feeling good. I could handle it, right? But he was so right. And it was a fundamental change for me to have him kind of just metaphorically like slap me upside the head, get me to see, set a boundary where he was not interested in hearing this, and then encourage me to fake it till I make it, to go in there assuming that that guy was attracted to me and see what my confidence in that assumption, how much more attractive that made me.
Now, I don't know, would the guy have thought I was attractive if I was just sitting there like, I'm a middle-aged mama? Maybe, but I sure as hell wouldn't have noticed it. And that was the difference is he's like, go look for it.
That's true, actually, because when you, I mean, you know, if we're sitting here preaching at people saying there is somebody out there for everybody and you know somebody's going to want all that yummy that you've got to give but we're not actively then looking for it ourselves and seeing how people are responding to us then it is a bit hypocritical of me I guess so I hear it I see what you're saying because I absolutely you know I know in the club on Saturday night that we just visited, there were people looking at me. Absolutely. No doubt in my mind. But I didn't really pay attention to it.
Like I probably saw it on my peripheral, but I didn't actually take it for the face value that it was rather than like, oh, they're probably looking at me because like my heels look funny or whatever, you know, whatever. So yeah, that's really interesting. It also goes back to the word evidence. You can go into that club and look for evidence that you are too chubby to for to be deserving of attention. Or you can go in that club and look for evidence that there are people that think you're hot. You will. That's the thing about evidence in the brain.
We're going to find evidence for just about anything we look for. That's true. And so that was basically what he was saying. He was kind of like twisting my head on differently to say, go in there and look for evidence to the contrary, not what you think is happening. Go in there and look and see what I see and find evidence and report back. And I didn't have to. He was sitting beside me watching me flirt with this guy. And it was quite the precursor to the next few years of our lives. Yeah, it sounds like it. And then there was the lifestyle. Yes.
Oh, and speaking of, that was another thing I wanted to mention about in the lifestyle. Something that we can all do to fight this ridiculous demon that is infecting so many people at any of these events. And it's one of my favorite things about the lifestyle is being in a setting where we are all of a sudden free to share compliments. And, you know, even if it's something like, like, man, those are some bad-ass heels, where'd you get them? Or you really move beautifully or like, gosh, I just love your curves. Anything like, if you notice something about someone, don't hold it in.
Assume that they are probably struggling with confidence issues because it is scary to go out and do this thing that we do and put ourselves up for rejection like we do. It's hard. And I don't care who you are. No one is above that worry. I can't imagine many people being upset at getting a very authentic compliment. Yeah. And it doesn't need to be the physical, like you said, it doesn't need to be like, Oh, you know, Oh, you are so skinny or my God, you're fit or anything. I actually like to pay a lot of people.
I mean, I pay everybody compliments, but for, for women in particular, if I notice a lady has done her hair or makeup, cause I'm really shit at those two things. If I noticed that like, she's just killing it with the hair and makeup department. Oh, I bet you a hundred dollars I'm saying something to her because I'm like, your hair is amazing. That must've taken you forever to do. And it looks absolutely fabulous on, on you tonight. Like fucking well done. Well done. You congratulations for being so talented. So that's often I, I tend to take it away.
Like what you said earlier about compliments, I take it away from sometimes the physicality of it. Yes. Congratulations for being so talented. So that's often I tend to take it away. Like what you said earlier about compliments, I take it away from sometimes the physicality of it and I give them something else because, you know, I think, again, it can be seen as disingenuous sometimes if it's just, you know, you're so hot, you're so sexy, I'm going to give them something else. So, look, I know that you've got to go, Catherine, so I just want to take a moment and say thank you.
You mentioned the book and you said please put it in the show notes. I will. That was Life Without Ed. We're going to have that in the show notes today. If you're looking for more information on Catherine and Expansive Connection, please also check the show notes. That is expansiveconnection.com. And if you are looking for one-on-one, I have that.
But more recently you've moved into a lot of the group work, I've noticed, and I get that because I'm mailing list I get those emails and they seem really I'm excited by that and I think one of the things that we mentioned earlier with sharing our journey with each other is normalizing this so I love that you're doing group work so thank you for doing all of that but thanks for coming on the podcast today absolutely yes thank you and we are speaking of of course I would give you an educational resource because that is something that our practice is really committed to.
All of us are on an ethically non-monogamous journey. So we're walking it with you, similar to how you and I, Kate, are doing this today with your listeners. And education is a huge, a huge part of our practice and really important to us.
So we're putting a lot of energy into ways to get educational products to people in more affordable ways because also that stigma of you have to be rich rich and skinny and fit whatever to do this and so we have self-study opportunities we also have the group experiences that are mostly focused on education and then people can learn these concepts and these tools and then if they want to take it to the next level then they can come see us one-on-one or as a couple or more, some or whatever, and really personalize and make the educational tools unique.
Like, oh, okay, I've learned attachment theory. I've learned I'm anxious and she's avoidant. So, what does that mean for us? So, they can learn all that on their own at a much cheaper rate and then come to us and we'll be able to spend a few sessions to really personalize it. And I have two wonderful coaches, Mishay and Kel, that joined me and a fantastic business administrator who is also ethically non-monogamous that herds the cats that we are and keeps us all on our toes. I love it. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and being able to have a real talk.
It's like you say, just because I have money and time and two degrees and have years of clinical experience it does not make me impervious to this this tough this tough topic yeah absolutely it doesn't and so again thank you katherine from expansive connections i i really appreciate your time here because i mean you could as you say be going off and helping other people but hopefully we've managed to help a few people on today's episode so thank you very much really appreciate it let me also say one more thing um the best website is expansiveconnection.com slash enm and that gives you all of our offerings and our spicy stuff my coaches and i still are parenting actively parenting and so we do have a little bit of a of a wall that we try to hide behind and only only people that are in the know and listening to these types of podcasts get the spicy website.
Expansiveconnection.com forward slash E&M. I will definitely have that in the show notes. Okay. Thanks so much, Kate. Thank you. Thank you again to Catherine from Expansive Connection. Every time Catherine comes on our show or another podcast, we get a thing, Normalizingizing, whoever that looks like, Catherine is giving up her time that she could be helping other clients.
So I really want to make a reference point to the fact that I appreciate Catherine very much for taking the time out of her day where she could be doing other things to come on the show and try to help us kind of framework some of the ways that we could acknowledge our confidence issues and then hopefully do something about it.
Now now before we get on to what we've been up to lately and what's happening for us coming up soon i really want to say a big shout out to our july patrons so i'm going all the way back and i'm doing all of july to say thank you to everybody so here we go thank you to darren matthew todd daniel me too thanks scott stephen john mary rose najam and that same old g still that same old G. Thank you so much for joining us on Patreon. We really, really appreciate each and every one of you. And we're going to be thanking our August patrons in the upcoming episode.
Speaking of upcoming episodes, we've got a lot coming up for you guys soon. We are going to be doing a review of the Fata Morgana Swingers Club club right here in the netherlands it's 20 minutes outside of amsterdam we went there recently and honestly i gotta tell you like foreshadowing guys but this club is the deep the fucking bomb like i can't even explain the setup right now it's just gorgeous i did put some video up on uh twitter and i think instagram and tiktok as well of us kind of going the driveway and stuff like that.
But we're really hoping to do a full YouTube walkthrough because I'm telling you guys like this club is da bomb. Doesn't have as much locker porn as the other one we went to here, Fun for Two, but definitely Fatima Morgana is really something that we really enjoyed. That was really fantastic. So we're going to talk about our time there. We're also going to share with you some erotic poetry. And this is actually from Duchess Kashmir. That's coming up on an upcoming episode. We're going to talk about fucking our friends.
Years ago, if you kind of wind back to, you know, circa 2018, our friends from Texas surprised us in Mexico City and came and flew in and we had a fucking fantastic time with them. Well, surprise, surprise, they actually flew in through Amsterdam recently.
And so we had the chance to actually go into the city and have a very sexy play session with them and it involved sitting on faces and double blow jobs and it was so much goddamn fun so we're going to talk about fucking our friends that's another episode coming up i'm probably going to combine that with the erotic poetry really really you know get in the groove there with some sexiness and we also had the opportunity recently to spend a weekend with the Bedhoppers, Mr. and Mrs. H, over on the Bedhoppers podcast. They came over to the Netherlands.
They spent time in our house here over the weekend and we recorded two hours of content. We're going to release episode one on their podcast. Then we're going to come back and release episode or the section two on our podcast. And we're doing a Q&A. We're talking about everything there. So we would love you guys to hang around for those upcoming episodes. I've got about 12 hours of raw voice that I need to edit. So I'm getting there. I'm doing it, but really want to thank you guys for hanging in there. Thank you to all of our listeners. Thank you to all of our patrons.
And thanks so much for your support on social media and here on the podcast. We really appreciate it until next time, guys, stay healthy, stay well, well please connect with me if you're on your own health journey i'd love to hear from you and i hope that you guys are having a good year and a good august bye guys I'll see you next time. Thank you.
