Hey Sexies,
Have you ever wondered how non-monogamous couples balance seduction and foreplay with their primary partner and new couples? ⠀
⠀
In this episode we are talking with the inspiring Dr Jess O’Reilly and here’s a look at what we’re talking about in EP106 of the Hotwifing and Swinging Podcast
Seduction with Primary Partner; how to keep your home life alive and continue to seduce when you are spending time together ⠀
How to manage New Relationship Energy that many couples experience when joining the swinging lifestyle
How to seduce and flirt your way from the bar to the bedroom ⠀
Redefining your Seduction Style, How to seduce with confidence and more⠀
Featured in this Podcast
Dr Jess O’Reilly – Sexologist
The Ultimate Guide to Seduction and Foreplay – Get your copy here
Join us at these Events
Naughty In Nawlins, August 2020 in New Orleans *** new dates now in August ***
Podcast-A-Palooza; October 2020 in Miami
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Wanna check out our Swingers React Videos on Vimeo? Check out the series here
Love, Peace and Respect.
xx
C&D
We are a swinging lifestyle podcast, we talk about sex, being a hotwife and non-monogamy, please ensure you are of legal age to be listening to our sexy stories.
Transcript
you're listening to swinging down under podcast about the swinging non-monogamous lifestyle from two crazy Australians with over four years of lifestyle antics to keep you entertained informed angry happy and horny join our international swinging adventures G'day guys and welcome to episode 106 of the Swinging Down Under podcast. Today's episode is titled Seduction and Foreplay with Dr. Jess O'Reilly.
Today's podcast is an interview with Jess O'Reilly who's a sexologist based out of Toronto in Canada and the reason we're talking to Jess is actually because she just co-authored a book called The Ultimate Guide to Seduction and Foreplay. And it really fit in with some of the topics that we wanted to cover specifically relating to seduction and foreplay. So seducing your primary partner at home, how to manage new relationship energy, how to seduce and flirt your way from the bedroom, the bar to the bedroom and defining your seduction style.
Those are some of the things that we actually cover in today's podcast. So it was a great opportunity for us to get together with Jess and really kind of tease out how the book would relate to putting these things into practice, specifically in the non-monogamous lifestyle. Now I do want to give a shout out and a big thank you to Dr. Jess O'Reilly for coming on the podcast today.
today this was not a sponsored podcast we've been asked in the past to identify whether or not podcasts are sponsored or not this is not it was just a matter of us wanting for many many years to get jess on the podcast and what a better way to do so with talking about the new book and you know putting some of these things into practice as i said before so this was co-authored by marla stewart now we're going to put the links of this book in our show notes today. If you're looking to get a copy of that, jump over there. They're not affiliate links.
We just want you guys to be able to have access to some of these amazing resources. That's what you guys can expect in today's podcast. Before we get into today's episode, a few items on what's new for Swinging Down Under or SDU. We just recently switched podcast catchers. Finally, you guys, after five years of hosting our own podcast on our own site, we've now switched over officially to Podbean.
So if you guys are out there and you have the Podbean app, you'll actually be able to now get our podcast through the Podbean app as well as everywhere else that you've been getting it from iHeartRadio, iTunes, et cetera. But just for those Podbean app users out there, you can now access Swinging Down Under there as well. We also just released a new video series. If you've been following us on social media, you may have seen us refer to these swingers react movies. So Daryl and I are on Vimeo now, and you can catch that on our website or in the show notes.
And we've released two videos so far where we're reacting to popular Hollywood swingers movies. And it's all in a bit of fun. So jump over there and have a look at those if you get a chance. What else is happening down here? We are still in quarantine, you guys. It's five months and 10 days and counting. And we're not allowed to actually see any friends until they're saying maybe July this year. So no more dates, no more swinger friends for us, not until at least July. And that's only within the country.
We're still not able to really travel internationally at all as well, which leads me to my next thing, which was the Podcasterpalooza postponement. So we did move that event from May to October, and that's, of course, in Miami, Florida. Thank God we did, you guys, because actually we wouldn't have even been able to get there and host it. That's kind of what's happening in our world at the moment. We're still indoors. Daryl and I are still working in the same office. We haven't killed each other yet. So we're pretty stoked about that.
And lastly, and before we get into the interview, again, a big thank you and shout out to all of our Patreon members. We've had a few new members actually sign up throughout the month of May and we wanted to give you guys a shout out and thank you so much again for all of your support of the Swinging Down Under podcast. It really means a lot to us. But otherwise, let's go ahead and get into today's interview. Really excited to share this interview with Dr. Jess O'Reilly with you. Thank you so much, guys. Have a great day. All right, everybody, and welcome back.
We are very excited to introduce our guest today. Now, this is actually somebody who we have been, I'm going to say watching, but not stalking for the past roughly five years. I think you've been stalking.
I think it's borderline stalk stalk it is a little bit and just definitely at the beginning of our lifestyle journey um this person played a really large part in that probably unknowingly so we have on the line with us today uh dr jess o'reilly thank you so much for joining us oh it's my pleasure thanks for having me now for everybody out there who perhaps hasn't heard of uh dr j, the two, three people that have been living under a rock for the last 15 years. Sure. Dr.
Jess is actually a sexologist based out of Toronto, Canada, an author, pet lover, TV personality, and has a weekly podcast titled Sex with Dr. Jess. What I love about Dr. Jess as well is that you travel the world, So you do have a lot of cultural understanding, you know, understanding on how to perhaps educate and also dismantle some of those barriers. And that's really something that we strive to do with our podcast. And so we're really excited to run through some of the topics that we have for you today, Jess. Oh, likewise. Excited to chat with you two.
And I follow you on Twitter, so I know what you're up to. Oh, good. Well, thank you very much. Not much lately. None of us. Well, I'm having a salad tonight. Tomorrow, I will have some pasta. I had a whiskey tonight, so tomorrow morning at 9 a.m., I'll probably have a whiskey. Why not?
Now, what we're going to be talking about today is seduction and foreplay, but we really want to narrow this down for non-monogamous now jess has just released a new book out and i do have to give credit because you obviously are a co-author with another individual and so i really want to mention that it's not just dr jess on this particular book um that has just come out so this is the ultimate Guide to Seduction and Foreplay, and it's been co-authored, co-written with Marla Stewart, who is the brainchild behind Sex Downs South.
So that's some of the topics that we're going to delve into today. We're going to take that book that you've written that I've had a look at, and we're going to kind of run through it, but we want to talk about it a little bit more specific to non-monogamy. Sounds great. Absolutely. And we certainly both wrote this with all relationship arrangements in mind, maybe with the exception of relationship anarchy, but certainly with consensual non-monogamy as well as monogamous people in mind.
And if you've read the book, you know that it's really intended to be applicable to people of all gender identities, all sexual orientations, and all relationship inclinations. I mean, I feel like I need to dig into one particular thing you went across there, which is sexual, sorry, sexual anarchy, or relationship anarchy, I should say. That's a new one to me. Can you help me out? I'm just trying to understand that. Oh, sure. So I wouldn't say I'm the expert on it, but relationship anarchy would be a form of consensual non-monogamy.
And of course, with all language, there is no universal definition, but oftentimes it involves not prioritizing one relationship over another. So it's not just non-hierarchical polyamory, but for example, a friendship can be just as important and just as intimate as a sexual relationship because we do tend to prioritize our intimate and sexual and romantic relationships. And even within consensual non-monogamy, if you take swingers, for example, usually you have a primary partner and that partner is the person who gets prioritized.
And in a monogamous sense, similarly, we say, oh, you have to make your family the priority or your partner the priority. But relationship anarchy takes a different approach and acknowledges that there doesn't necessarily have to be a hierarchical organization to your relationships based on the type of relationship. And in addition to that, some of these relationship boundaries can be very fluid, kind of, you know, if it feels good and you're treating people well, go ahead and do it.
So it's definitely not my area of expertise and somebody can probably chime in and tell me what I missed and they will. Yeah, that's, don't worry, We have an email address that regularly gets hit with that when I get things wrong, so we'll let you know if we get an email.
No, and thank you for that, because it is always interesting, and look, we're definitely, you know, we are learning a lot, and as you said before, Jess, there is a lot of definitions around things, and even our own interpretations of things can be very different from the next person, so we do appreciate that, and it actually ties something that that i really wanted to sort of set the scene for today's conversation um up front and that is what you just mentioned was that that idea of the primary partner so daryl and i are non-monogamous but we've been together for you know 12 years and and i do clarify him as kind of my my primary partner you know i live with him it's Is it?
I'm not sure. Let's not make that correction live, shall we? Can I blame Corona for not knowing how long we've been together for this week? Absolutely. But it is an interesting topic because, you know, when we do talk about our primary partner, and especially for those relationships that are delving a little bit into non-monogamy, new relationship energy is exhilarating. And we get a lot of questions around, you know, how do I continue to keep my primary relationship at a very good balance Thank you. new relationship energy is exhilarating.
And we get a lot of questions around, you know, how do I continue to keep my primary relationship at a very good balance, but not get overthrown or too excited by perhaps this new relationship energy? So Jess, you know, how would you say for Daryl and I, how can I keep our home life alive with my primary partner without perhaps getting too excited or too interested in elsewhere and maybe then, you know, not giving Daryl what he needs. Well, I think you can do both of those things at once.
So I think you can go ahead and let yourself enjoy that new relationship energy and maybe even be too into it and overwhelmed by it. And at the same time, invest in this existing relationship. Because I think even just the cognitive piece of knowing that the reason this is so thrilling is because it's new. The reason this is so thrilling is because there is an unknown and it's just all about discovery.
And as long as you don't get overwhelmed to the point that you think, oh, well, maybe really I should be prioritizing this person because they seem so much more exciting, so much more exhilarating. I think that as long as you know that that will wear off inevitably, in no circumstances will it last forever, I think that it can be a really healthy thing to engage and indulge in something new and exciting and at the same time recognize that in a long-term relationship where the relationship energy is not new, you have to do things.
You have to invest the effort to create opportunities for novelty, for excitement, and most importantly, for risk. Because oftentimes the reason we don't have that same type of energy in long-term relationships is that there's no risk. It's too comfortable. We know each other too well. We've done everything to make one another emotionally safe. And emotional safety, of course, we all, you know, humans desire that. It's a wonderful place in which to exist. And at the same time, it's not a panty dropper. It's not a boxer brief dropper.
So you can get really comfortable and be in this amazing, fulfilling, loving relationship and still not be so sexually or erotically thrilled by that person. And so that's when you, you know, one thing I talk about is your elevated erotic feelings. So with this partner with whom you have this loving relationship, can you explore some of your elevated erotic feelings? Like meaning some of the emotions that take sex and just the interactions to the next level. So just to backtrack one moment, I always talk about your core erotic feelings.
So your core erotic feeling is the feeling that you require in order to potentially get in the mood for sex. And it's different from person to person. So you might need to feel relaxed. You might need to feel loved. You might need to feel desired. You might need to feel sexy.
you might need to feel relaxed you might need to feel loved you might need to feel desired you might need to feel sexy you might need to feel happy you know everybody's core erotic feeling is different so it's kind of similar to the love languages but but more broad and more nuanced and that's something I spend some time talking about in the book how to figure out what your core erotic feeling is so that at least sex becomes possible but when your core erotic feeling is so well taken care of, which is kind of what we want in the relationship, so sex becomes possible, but we don't always want to do it.
That's when you have the feelings that are at the fundamental, at the foundation of sex for you. These are taken care of. So you can move on and look at what other feelings can we play with? What oftentimes subversive feelings can start to turn us on in an entirely more intense way? It's the reason why people can be turned on by feelings of jealousy. We always hear in consensual non-monogamy, oh, well, how do you manage jealousy? Okay. Sometimes you talk about it. Sometimes you work on it. Sometimes you use cognitive behavioral therapy approaches to attenuate the effects of jealousy.
And other times, for some of us, we lean right into it and we enjoy it and we get turned on by it. And sex and the relationship itself becomes all the more thrilling because this subversive emotion becomes a positive, exciting, erotic experience. So I do think that part of new relationship energy is the way you interact and novelty and doing things differently and injecting risk, but also there's the emotional element that is so well worth exploring. Can you look at what your potential elevated erotic feelings may be and play with some of them?
I mean, we know people who are in the kinky community, many of us turned on by feelings that we wouldn't want to feel on a Tuesday night at the dinner table, but in the throes of passion, with the oxytocin, with the adrenaline, with the endorphins flooding our body, with our disgust factor and our inhibitions plummeting, they start to feel good. You can be turned on by being degraded. You can be really turned on by being humiliated. Me, for example, I like to feel inadequate. Now, would I ever want to feel inadequate in my relationship? Of course not.
But because my core erotic feeling and the basis of the relationship is so emotionally sound, and that doesn't mean every day of every year or of every cycle in particular for me, but once those things are taken care of, that's why I can have fun with these other feelings. And that's how you can inject not new relationship energy into an old relationship, but emotional experiences that are as thrilling and as passionate and as pleasurable as new relationship energy. I find it interesting you touched on cycle there.
And the reference that I'm looking at here is more the typical relationships, or not typical, but relationship cycle that I think we tend to run through, or certainly our relationship has over the past, where at some points in your your cycle you're much more interested in in being intimate with each other and other times you're not and just depending on what's going on at work and what's really interesting though about that is that with some of our longer term non-monogamous friends we've found that we've all been through similar very similar cycles individually which we then discussed as a as a group and in some cases a team to figure out how we can lift that individual back up.
So it is, I understand what you're saying around the cyclical nature of a lot of things that go on in this, because it's all built around other things that are going on in your life as well, not necessarily just that intimate moment that you're looking to experience with your partner right now and you know building on that with with what you mentioned about some of the humiliation humiliation aspects and things like that it's uh i think when you when you're in that potential down cycle having those things exposed you know when they're when they're red and raw may not be the ultimate uh time for that for that to be done so i find it interesting that there's you know, when they're red and raw may not be the ultimate time for that to be done.
So I find it interesting that there's, you know, that humans are kind of driven somewhat by cycles. And in my experience anyway, that there's this constant ebb and flow in relationships and not only intercouple, but intracouple as well. Yeah, I think that's a great point and something to be really aware of and accept because our notion of relationships, you know, especially in kind of more Western cultures is so tied to romance and passion.
And we have this, you know, erroneous belief that it's really about finding the right person or the right people, as opposed to acknowledging that, you know, it's the work you put in. And as those cycles occur or as, you know, as you said, as the feelings and experiences ebb and flow, can you be okay with those things? And also can you talk about them? And can you make lifestyle, behavioral, you know, transactional and attitudinal shifts in response to those as opposed to just saying, oh, well, I guess we're going through a rough patch.
Yes, we can accept that this may not be the best time in our relationship, but what can we do to maximize the positive outputs and minimize some of the negative effects so that they don't pop up in the long term, so that they maybe don't have as deleterious of effect as something that you just let go and let it simmer and ignore it and hope that it goes away. Yeah, certainly front on is the way that I tend to approach this, which is not always the way that Kate likes to receive it, unfortunately.
Not always, but I mean, honestly, you know, it is fantastic for us i mean sometimes yes that the receiving and you know me receiving that information i might not be in a place to to be appropriate receiving that but but then obviously i go off and do that but jess you did touch on something there and i want to backtrack and slash tell a story and ask a question here and it was about you know that the lack of risk and the known and having you know my partner that I'm living with especially now and in chapter two you talk a lot about seduction fantasies you know how we can tap into sexual fantasies and I want to bring that back to something that has been happening between Daryl and I and we've spoken about it you know at length so this is nothing new for us to be bringing up, but it is the lack of seduction in our relationship, the lack of flirting.
You know, Daryl, and as he just mentioned, likes to tackle things head on and came to me one day and he said, you know what, you don't flirt with me enough, you don't seduce me enough, how can we together work on this? And so my question to you is, you know, are there any kind of key points or sort of working things that we can do to really understand, well, what is it that Daryl needs and what does he define as being seduced and flirted with? And in the flip side of that, you know, how can I better understand or put those things into practice?
Well, one thing that we talk about, thanks to my writing partner, Marla, and I want to make sure Marla gets credit for this, are the seduction learning styles. And so I don't know if you got to read all of this, but Marla's theory suggests that the way in which you learn is oftentimes the way in which you want to be seduced and receive pleasure. So if you're a visual learner, an auditory learner, or a kinesthetic or tactile learner, the same approach is often desired and reflected in the way you want to be seduced.
And so we spend a little bit of time fleshing out how to seduce a kinesthetic learner, how to seduce an auditory learner. And of course, nobody fits perfectly into a box. So you as a, as skilled seducer, want to be, you know, kind of want to be skilled in each of these areas and really explore different ways to seduce a lover visually to flirt with them with your words to flirt with them with physical touch. And, and another piece is really the planting of sex seeds. And I love this approach.
I like the visual element of like, you know, really planting a seed in advance of when you want to seduce them. Because we're not light switches, right? We can't go from talking about whether our kids are constipated or whether, you know, whether the dog's been walked to like, hello. Well, hello there. Let me tear your clothes off. And so, you know, I refer to this as eroticizing daily interactions and being more playful and being more flirtatious. And that language in and of itself is inadequate. We really need to talk specifically about what that looks like. How do you want to be seduced?
And all of the different pieces of that. So one thing that we've done in this book, and it's my favorite book that I've written, I feel like all the other books kind of pale in comparison, is we've given people specific instructions and specific prompts and really hundreds of them so that you can talk these things through with yourself as considerations for yourself, but also with a partner. So with the seduction interview, we want you to answer questions like, what are the best and worst times to initiate sexual contact? When do you like to have sex? What time of the day?
Do you like to be woken up when you're asleep? What are the best days, the worst days? Are you open to having sex when you're menstruating? Are you open to having sex in the middle of a workday? Or do you need to finish your work first? What about, you know, the kids' schedules? How does that relate? And then we get people thinking about, you know, can you think of a scene from a show or a movie that represents the type of seduction you desire? Is there a scene you want to reenact? Are there celebrities or shows that turn you on?
You know, are there shows where the romance and the interactions feel believable? Are there shows where they really accurately represent your seduction style? What characters do you find attractive and why? And really like the why becomes the important question in every possible conversation. You know, are there words or phrases you like to hear that might build a foundation to put you in the mood for sex? Should they be romantic? Should they be raunchy? What's the situation for either of these? Do you like to hear the same words or phrases or should they be different every time?
So for example, auditory learners like me, we like a variety of words. I don't like hearing the same thing over and over again. It can drive me wild on a Tuesday, but if you repeat it on a Saturday, I'm like, yeah, boring. Come up with something new. But I need to communicate that to my partner or partners. There's just no way that they're able to get into my mind. And then we get into the physical side. Do you like platonic touches? Are you a fan of being in close intimate proximity? Do you like light or aggressive touch to begin with? Can you show me what that looks like?
And it seems, you know, there are hundreds of questions like this that we're asking people to consider. And it seems like work. But what you're doing is you're gathering information so that you can be better in bed. Just the way before you go to a job interview, if there's something you can find out about the person who's interviewing you, it's going to be useful to you or before you, you know, pitch to a client. If you know that they're really into one thing and not another, then you're going to use that angle. And so this is really just about improving understanding.
And I do find that sometimes people who have been together a while and are still having sex, they say things like, well, we know everything about each other or I just know what they like. And that's when sex starts to get boring. If you think you know everything about your partner, what is there to discover? That's why you'll never have the thrill of NRE, of new relationship energy, because, you know, ultimately you know everything already. The excitement is in the discovery. The excitement is in the unknown.
And most importantly, and I think the thing most people miss, I think what we miss is that the excitement is in the fear of rejection. When we don't know whether or not we're going to get it right, there is a thrill. Those butterflies in your stomach are not in response to finding someone different or more exciting or finding the one or finding someone with whom you have chemistry. Yeah, that's a piece of it. But the butterflies are a fear response. They're a fear of rejection response where your digestive tract starts contracting.
Your anal sphincter starts contracting because you're feeling fearful. So it's not true love. It's not NRE. It is just your anal sphincter contracting out of fear. And isn't that fun? Like that, that's what's exciting. I call it the roller coaster rule. When you fly through the air on a roller coaster of 500 miles an hour, the reason it's so thrilling is that the old reptilian part of your brain believes you're about to die. That's what makes it exciting is that, oh my gosh, this is death.
But what makes it exciting and safe and works for you as a human being is that the modern, you know, developed part of your brain knows that it's safer than any highway you drive on on any given day. So it feels really risky, but it's actually really safe. And that's what, you know, I kind of call that the formula for passion in long-term relationships. And when you're in a consensually non-monogamous relationship, it can be easy to only go and get your thrill from something new. And for some people, that really does work.
There isn't the, you know, feeling of lacking in terms of thrill with the, let's just say the primary or original partner. But for people that can make us feel you know jealous and not jealous in an exciting way but in a way that we you know we feel threatened the relationship feels threatened and i know we use the language of compersion and deriving pleasure from other people but even if you have experiences of that that does not eliminate jealousy and threatened security we are human beings who crave some degree of stability, of course, different degrees for different people.
And that can depend on your personality type and your attachment style. But we crave social connection. We crave stability. We crave love. And so when those fundamental needs get threatened, whether it's because a partner seems to be more into a new partner, a new person, and they're on the high of the new relationship energy, or because they're not communicating with us, or because we're just feeling disconnected for a different reason, we do feel a real threat. And that's not the type of threat we want to have.
We want to have the foundation where there is so much trust and love and care that we have our social needs and our attachment needs met. Then we can go do the things that feel risky. And that's why for many couples, not every couple, but most of the couples that I see, if you are experiencing new relationship energy with another partner, you still want to be investing in the excitement and passion of your primary relationship. And I use the language of primary knowing that not everybody functions with that hierarchy. And so I see this in entrepreneurs.
So I'll give you kind of an example that might be clear for monogamous folks. So I work primarily with entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs and CEOs. That's why I'm traveling. That's why you'll see me in all these countries is I'm working with two different organizations that are membership organizations and you have to qualify to be a member in terms of dollar value of your company. So these entrepreneurs get a thrill from their work. They love it. They're successful. They're powerful. It's exciting. There are all these moving parts. There is risk, which is what's exciting.
And so they get all this risk and thrill from work and then they come home to their partner who probably isn't an entrepreneur in many cases. Maybe they stay home with the kids or maybe they have more of a regular nine to five job, but they don't get a thrill from their job the way many entrepreneurs do. And what do they want from that partner and that relationship? They want stability.
They've gone and got their thrill someplace else at work and all they want is a quiet space where they can relax their mind, not engage, not riled up and have their stability and i can tell you that i've fallen into this you know i'm on the road yeah every day like this week i'm supposed to be in france italy spain and then next week portugal and romania but no i'm going from my bedroom to my living room instead yep you just need to put little names on the little names on the floor for each country one for the bedroom one for the one for the lounge exactly there's a few things i can take away from some of the things you've said there the first one is i'm fairly sure brandon's got a thesaurus and dictionary stuffed under his pillow in the bed and i think kate's got a little bit of time up her sleeve in terms of psychological help around convincing her front brain that being on a roller coaster is actually safe.
Yes, I was going to say my lizard brain takes over entirely there. There is no convincing me that that's, I mean, even the hundreds of thousands of air miles that I've done, I'm still sure every time I get on that plane I'm going to to die. Well, that's a great point. I think that's an important piece though, that our threshold for risk varies from person to person, but also the type of risks we like to take vary from person to person. And we have to be so careful.
And I especially noticed this among CNN people, we do sometimes, well, all people do this, but we do have a tendency to assume that our experience can be generalized to others. And it simply can't because, you know, the way you experience something, Kate, is 100% valid and 100% psychologically sound. Well, nobody's 100%, but pretty damn close, right? And the way I experience it. I'm going to say 60 to 70. It's a solid 41, a solid 41. Exactly. Whereas my experience of that same scenario, let's just say we could control for variables, which of course we can't.
I might have a totally different experience and it's just as valid. And so we have to be really mindful of prescribing to other people the experiences and especially the feelings and the the management of feelings that we have and that's where like you know i like to challenge people with compersion okay if you experience that that feeling of deriving pleasure from somebody else's pleasure amazing but if you also feel jealous if also feel insecure, if another person feels threatened by that, that can be just as amazing because it can lead to really meaningful conversations.
I think some people in CNM relationships think that if a situation, especially an early interaction with non-consensual non-anogamy goes wrong, that it could be disastrous. When in fact, if you've been talking, if you've been really seriously having vulnerable conversations, not just about what you want to do, but about why you want to do it or why you don't want to do something, right? The why, you know, that disastrous, let's just say, you know, we have a really terrible experience and one of us maybe experienced some sort of sexual dysfunction or the other gets really upset and storms off.
Sure, that's, that could be a negative experience, but also it can lead to some really positive conversations and deepen the relationship. So I don't think the measure of an experience is what happens in the moment, but oftentimes it's what happens after. No, I agree with that. And, and, you know, you few times now, and I think that definitely it became a very big buzzword in the consensual non-monogamy community. And I almost felt like it was being put on a platform. And if you don't feel compersion, then you're not doing consensual non-monogamy correctly.
Unfortunately for me, I was under the pillow looking in Brandon's dictionary to figure out what compersion was when the first time I heard it. You're right, it is valid and there are so many different emotions that go along with that. And years ago, I came out and said, yeah, I felt jealousy. And initially, I was very concerned about bringing this up with Daryl because I felt ashamed of it.
And then in the end, now I think it's actually quite powerful because, as you just said, it opens up points of conversation, which, and not to get too nerdy, but what I really enjoyed was the fact that there was some homework in this book, Three of the Chapters. And something that I do always say is that we often in our lives have conversations about, you know, where do you see yourself in five, ten years?
You know, what sort of a job, career, where do you want to in five ten years you know what sort of a job career where do you want to live how many bedroom house you know how many children do you want to have you want to have a dog but very rarely do we actually then sit down and give ourselves that that space and peace of mind to actually have these more sexual based conversations and so somebody like me really gets value out of actually being asked the questions because I can't think of them myself you know I just don't know and so having that flow and daryl's seen this before where he'll ask me you know what's your sexual fantasy and i'll just stare at him blankly like but don't know lasagna you know i don't and sorry so i haven't quite gotten to lasagna uh but but it is a good point and to kind of roll this now over so so we've sort of spoken about, you know, Daryl and my relationship and how to kind of keep some of that seduction alive and how we can sort of roll that in and make sure we're keeping ourselves, you know, feeling in risk and everything else.
But taking that now into a situation where you do have people meeting each other for the first time maybe and, you know, they're out there mingling and they're wanting to make those solid connections. And, you know, you did mention before about the different seduction styles, taking that though into a really quick scenario. So, you know, I know how Daryl learns, but I don't know how Bob at, you know, the mingle meet, consensual non-monogamy meet, you know, how he functions.
How would you say I can kind of feel that out so I can see what Bob's interested in and see how I should kind of adjust my seduction techniques with Bob to get him in the bedroom? Well, I think that's a great question. And you can pick up on cues, right? So if you see them being very, you know, if they're fingering material or they seem to want to, you know, touch the sweater or you see that they're kind of drawn to different textures, they're probably more kinesthetic. And oftentimes we communicate in the language that we desire.
So if they seem to be using their words more, then they're probably drawn to words. If, you know, if they seem to be want to hear you speak, then they're probably more auditory. And if they are admiring you and, you know, offering compliments or remarking upon different visual elements, then they're probably more visual. So you probably pick up on these cues even more than you realize, especially as you become aware of them. I think the challenge for most of us is that we convey our desire in the way that we want to receive desire.
And so we just need to stop, take a moment and just observe what the other person is doing. Yeah, I think I really like that. I mean, the association here with the learning styles is something that, you know, my way through business is something that we've been taught all the way through to try and help, you know, help bring people up the curve in a manner that best suits their personality and best suits their learning style. And certainly for me, you know, tactile and probably kinesthetic are my two main engagements, the way that I deal with this.
Certainly the visual style is actually not, it's no good for me at all and i can i do understand that now put in this context when i look at some of my history of engaging with other couples how i deal with that and and normally i am the person who reaches out not necessarily in any sort of offensive way but certainly reaches out to touch a shoulder or something like that. So there is obviously a consent component to that as well, though. So we have to be aware of where we sit and who we sit with to make sure that we're not interrupting where they sit in their position.
And actually, if I can just interrupt there too, this is a really interesting point because, Jess, the amount of times we walk away from a date and Daryl will turn to me and he goes what the hell you didn't even flirt with him or her and I'll say what what are you talking about man I was flirting up a storm back there and it's because he has the very different style than I do and with the touching and everything else whereas you know I'm very more subtle and I'm I'm words and I'm talking to them and I'm you know eye contact and everything else so when I think that I'm flirting up a storm and he's walking away going, what the hell is wrong with you?
You didn't even touch them on, you know, example, the shoulder once to, you know, to let them know you're interested to make sure that they're aware of your body language.
And it's just interesting how not only do, you know, could we perceive that incorrectly in others that we're actually trying to flirt with, but within our own relationship looking at each other flirting with other people we don't even know what we're doing you know it makes a lot more sense now work it's totally terrible I love that and I love that you you bring up the differences because they're also really significant differences from culture to culture.
And, you know, your international folks who travel internationally live abroad, and you probably see the difference in terms of flirtation from culture to culture and even region to region. And I also really appreciate the piece around gender because we do, you mentioned that you're not very visual, whereas we, of course, generalize that men are visual creatures and they just like to look. And, of course, I mean, part of my job, I do feel, is not eradicating gender roles, but breaking down some of these gendered stereotypes.
And we hear it a ton in the CNM spaces, I'm sure, like especially in swingeringer spaces, you know, we hear that women have to initiate and women are the gatekeepers and whatever the women want that the men are fined with. And this is really can be very costly to men who also want to set boundaries and also should have the capacity to say no. And when you touch someone, I understand that, you know, people make fun and say, well, it's not sexy to say, can I touch your shoulder?
But there are so many different ways to cultivate consent and to read people's body languages, but also to check in, right, with the only universal language that we have of kind of yes and no, like, does that feel good? Or do you want me to back off? Or do you want more of that? Are they leaning toward you, right? If you go to give someone a hug, and they kind of pop their butt out to not press their body against you, you have to be able to pick up on that.
And of course, everybody's capacity to read body language is different, not only again, from culture to culture, but we also have folks who are neurotypical and neuro atypical.
And that's why we do have to use our words a lot and if if people think it's not sexy um you know i think it's it's much sexier than violating somebody's consent and and also making assumptions based on gender that it's okay you know like i hear from uh people with penises all the time who say that you know they're at some of these parties and that uh women think that it's okay to grab them grab their butts grab their penises. And, you know, that type of physical, you know, assault ultimately can be damaging.
Now, I know there's people who are going to laugh and say like, I don't mind who grabs my penis. That's fine. That is fine for your penis. But I can tell you and therapists will tell you that, you know, they hear about people feeling violated. And that exists regardless of gender. So we need to be a bit more mindful. And I think that the whole lifestyle or community is just becoming a little bit more sophisticated with our conversations. It's not the same as it was even five or 10 years ago. And I'm happy to see that.
I'm happy to see this because we have to be really mindful of people's feelings and boundaries.
And that is a conversation that's worth having as as well certainly around the you know i myself have have felt that in certain situations where where it was an unwelcome touch and and a very unwelcome touch in some cases and and not because i found the the person you know unappealing to look at or even in terms of their engagement but just the fact that perhaps the way that that Kate felt about their partner, and we play generally as partners, so there was a problem on the other side as well that was driving my need to be further away from that sexual environment.
So that's absolutely something that I know personally I have felt more than once. And this is another personal thing that I'm trying to change in the lifestyle community what i've found along the way is that is that you know typically it's very common for ladies to give other ladies or i should say you know um women to give other women compliments around how they look what what you know the clothing they're wearing their hair things like that but it's very for women to give men compliments.
And it's actually even more uncommon for men to give men compliments, certainly in the sphere that we operate in. With that in mind, you end up with a scenario where the men in the room are not receiving any compliments and can actually walk out of there feeling a lot worse about themselves sometimes than what they did on the way in.
So I do my best to openly compliment men and women on on my way through all of these events purely just to try and change that that current scenario you know because i think there are men out there that like myself i think everybody grapples with their own you know with their own demons around how they look and whether they're okay to be there or whether they're the they're the secondary to the to the gorgeous woman or man or you know insert insert sex here there's you you really have to be aware of the fact that you've got to be um engaging with people as well around that i think well actually i want to actually bring something up then because you've just given me a very good lead and thank you very much Daryl it's almost like you've been on this podcast for a while now.
In the book it talks about how to seduce with confidence and I'd like to just very quickly talk about this but it says boost your confidence with positive affirmations and I thought something fun that we could do in the podcast today is to share a little positive affirmation each. I've been thinking about this since I saw it in our show notes, and I still haven't come up with one. So I'm going to be like the guy that orders the pastor last because everybody else at the table order pastor. Well, to give everybody an example, in the book, it says, I'm kind and loving.
That's an example of a positive affirmation on how to seduce with confidence. And my positive affirmation I'm going to leave myself with today is that I'm an extraordinarily thoughtful individual. And I think that that is a value that I really love and cherish in myself. So I'm a very thoughtful individual. Jess, what would be a positive? Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, I'm going to go to Jess next. I'm still thinking. Jess, what's one of your positive affirmations if you would like to share it with us? Sure, yeah. I think I try and make people feel good about themselves.
And yeah, I try to do that in every interaction, whether it's a stranger or the people I'm closest with. So yeah, thank you for doing this. This is great. Thank you. And Daryl? Okay, I think I have one. Faster than he was expecting. I know, right? I know. Could somebody insert some more conversation here? For me, I think I try every day to make the world a better place than what it was when I started the day. So that's one of the things I enjoy about myself. Yeah, good. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. And I feel very violated in having to say this out loud just quietly.
It's not something that I don't regularly stand in the mirror and have these conversations with myself, but perhaps I should do more of that. Yeah, it does feel a little bit uncomfortable and that's why I wanted to do that because, you know, as Jess said before, sometimes getting out of your comfort zone, adding a little bit of risk into your day is not such a bad thing. And so, yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I need to drop right now. I fly helicopters to engage that part of my risk as well. And it also gives me a chance to tell everybody again that I'm a pilot. Good job.
So what I want to do now is skip away from some of those chapters. And there's some fantastic, as I mentioned before, some workflows in there I particularly liked, and it's very poignant for right now, which is eroticising your daily interactions and cutting back on complaining because I know I've been doing a lot about that lately. No, you haven't.
But moving on actually, Jess, if we had a couple of minutes, a few of our community members actually sent through some questions for you and I thought that they were some great questions and something that perhaps our listenership could get something out of. So, do you have a couple more moments with us and we'll ask you a few questions? Of course. Thank you. Okay, perfect. So, this first one's actually from Jeff and Jeff has two questions here and I'm going to ask them all together because I think you can probably roll it into the one answer.
answer but he says on maintaining the seduction just taking up a lot of air time flirting spark um in a long-term relationship so he's relating it back to what we said earlier what are a few strategies to help um deter from the well-traveled neural pathways when flirting and seducing a long-time partner and how can i present some novelty to my beautiful wife so something we kind of touched on. And then he said on flirting and seduction in ethical non-monogamy, he's a self-diagnosed overthinker, self-doubter.
What's some reliable clues that a woman in an open receptive would be open and receptive to flirting and being seduced? And so he's just wanting to make sure he doesn't feel like he's coming across as he said, as a perceived as a dick., pushy, boundary, boundary disrespecting guy. I really like that. I've met some of those. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it really depends if you're meeting on person, in person or online because so many folks right now, but just generally we, we meet online for many of these connections.
Um, so I think, you know, gauging in person, it might be eye contact, they might be moving toward you, they might be dancing with you. And they'll be answering in full sentences, usually. I'm really, I'm always reticent to say, like, here is a sign that someone is into you. Because I could say, okay, one word answers might mean that, you know, they're not into you and they want to end this conversation. But in some cases, one word answers mean that they're nervous and they're excited by you and they want to keep going.
So I think, unfortunately, we have to, you know, create an opportunity for that person to say yes or no. So it might be something like, oh, do you want to go to the bar? And two words that I love and I think really put someone like me and a lot of women who have been kind of socialized to be people pleasers at ease are no pressure. Like if you send me a message, are you interested in this? No pressure. Because I have a tendency to want to say yes to everything, everything. And I really like even in work, I don't have time to.
But if people say no pressure, it helps me, first of all, evaluate the situation rather than worrying about what I'm doing for someone else versus what I'm doing for myself. So I think just those two words when you're chatting online or in person, like, no pressure, do you want to go over here? No pressure at all. So that they can feel as though they can get out of it. Because we talk about yes or no or enthusiastic consent.
But sometimes, you know, we do say yes, because we feel pressured into saying saying yes or we don't know how to say no i mean i've been in that situation i think about like my first time ever in one of these scenarios and both brandon and i kind of didn't know how to say no because it just happened um and rather than you know somebody using their words with us so i'm a big fan of using your words regardless of the type of learner you are. If you speak the same language, that's a universal language and body language is not universal.
I think no is an uncommon term as well in terms of using it in an everyday language. You know, it's not common for a human to give a no.
It's normally a no but or a no if or, you know, there's some other, in other in my experience again something else trailing that that gives you the the ability to soften that somewhat because it's unusual i find it very unusual to just hear an outright no which is why i've always felt it uncomfortable as well to say that and i know i know i speak for kate i'm sitting here trying to figure out the last time i actually said no to your point daryl i mean you know the, you know, the postman comes, I go to the grocery store, like just in everyday life, I cannot remember the last time I said no.
Whereas a yes, you know, a yes is a much easier word to get out, especially in a pressure situation, which some of the times that's exactly what these things are, right? They can be, and they're positive pressure, but still a pressure situation. Or it could be a negotiation as well.
You know, it's not necessarily's not necessarily a no you know to your point maybe they're asking you to go to the bar and your response could be i'm going to consider it i might do that or i'll maybe go there later you know maybe not right now it's as opposed to a no so yeah i get what you're saying there it's interesting i think another option too is like do you want to just chill here i'm going to go to the bar do you want to join so you're kind of giving them two options as opposed to having to say no right yeah actually you're giving me the option to chill here so i'll just I'll see chill here, even though you're going to go to the bar.
And I think the other piece of this is rejection. We don't talk about rejection. And, you know, humans, of course, are wired to resist, to avoid, to withdraw in response to rejection, because we're social creatures, and it doesn't feel good to be rejected. And again, you know, we're talking about sexual rejection, but even when a waiter is rude to you or the barista is flippant, those are experiences of rejection. And so I think we can really practice getting better at working through and managing rejection in our lives.
I spoke with someone named Karen BK Chan on our podcast who talked about emotional literacy and how to get better at being rejected. Because if you are better at being rejected, you will be less aggressive in the way you approach. You will be less manipulative. You will be more straightforward and you will create opportunities for people to reject you. And that's really what we should be doing is, yeah, here's what I'm into. And also, I really want to know what you're into. And if this isn't what you're into, that's totally cool.
You know, I know this other sexologist who, she says, she's like, I don't want to sleep with you. I only like guys with six packs.
And she, you know, she was seen as, you know, a brute or brutally honest or a bitch or any of those things but we're just so not used to people saying you know what that's not my thing you're not my thing instead we say oh it's not me it's you or I just don't have the energy or I'm on my period or any of these excuses that we use and I don't know like I mean it's interesting of course as a so-called expert being asked these questions, I struggle with this stuff, too.
I mean, I struggle with it maybe even more, not wanting to reject people, not sexually as much as just personally, not wanting somebody to be upset about me. And then for those of us who have trouble rejecting, can we ask ourselves about our capacity to be honest with people, right? I saw this really interesting thing from Dr. Donna or Ryoho the other day on Instagram, and it began with, people pleasers are liars. Oh, wow. That's really powerful. Uh-huh. And I've been meaning to get her on the podcast to talk about it because I had to sit with that. And I am a liar.
Like, I really, you know, this desperation desperation to have people like me and I make excuses for it, right? I have all my reasons why I need people to like me or what, but I have to work on that myself so that I get more comfortable. And I think these are skill building capacities, skill building opportunities that we need more in our community. Like, yes, we have all these different communication workshops, but we really need workshops on rejection and on emotional literacy. All of us. Well, I look forward to that, Jess, because Daryl just pointed at me so hard across the table.
He was like, that is you. You're a people pleaser. You're a liar. Well, people pleaser is definitely part of your standard operating procedure, I think. And I think there is an aspect of that that comes through your childhood. And I think a lot of people are driven by this, by what they understood, you know, on their way through life. So, it's always interesting to me to see what the outcome is from, you know, different childhoods, different upbringings, different environments.
because because you know like like i explained to you before my my environment was very different to most being that my hometown has 15 people so i i had to i had to learn very quickly to ask whether i was related to people before we got to the sexual conversation so um certainly asking questions was always part of what I did, but, um, the, the rejection is, you know, again, growing up in a country area to say no to people was almost unheard of, you know, it was come, come and, come and mow my lawn. Okay. Otherwise I'm going to tell your parents. Exactly. Right.
So, yeah, there's, we really, sorry to interrupt. We really have to think about gender in here. I think it's so important to understand why women in particular become people pleasers, not only because of socialization, but we have to think about survival, right? So gender, race, income, status, all of these things lead to the way we interact with people. So sometimes we don't say yes, because we don't want to hurt your feelings.
Um, we just don't say no, because we don't know how you're going to react, especially when, you know, we always hear about that when folks, well, why didn't she say no? Well, because that no might've turned to violence. So we thought that placating this person would make it easier for us to get out of the situation. Like if, if, you know, a guy puts his hand on my leg and I don't want it there, um, I should be able to say, get your hand off my leg.
Like, who are you to think you can put your, but I won't always, because sometimes, you know, you, you have pressure not to start cause a scene or you're fearful that if you say something like that, it will escalate to him becoming physically aggressive with you. So, you know, I talked about men having their penises grabbed and certainly, you know, there is a very serious violation there. And I want to emphasize that when you are a smaller person or a weaker person, physically weaker, as many women we are, not all of us, there is an additional threat and that informs the way we communicate.
And I just wish these were conversations we would be having slowly, you know, not in like, not just in a tweet, not just, not even just on a podcast, but at workshops. And if we're, if we're going to have these communities, let's, let's take the time to delve into this deeper stuff as well. Absolutely. I'm all for, you know, women supporting themselves in these sorts of scenarios.
it is, I find it, you know, very, it's just disgusting to me to feel that Kate, you know, being the person that I love dearly or anyone else for that matter is put into a situation where they feel obligated to say yes to something that they don't want to do.
It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth to understand that people are put in that every day and and it just shouldn't be the case so the more education we can do in our lifestyle i'm certainly happy to hear it and happy to happy to spruik it whoever whoever decides to pick up that mantle and run with it so on moving on now i'm going to i'm going to skip over the next question that that we had Mark here, and it's a little bit of a throwback, I suppose, because Playboy Swing's quite a while back now for all of us, and I suppose that's probably our introduction to you, honestly.
That was the first time we met you, from a distance, of course, but it was always interesting to see your interactions and and see which color dress you were wearing yes honestly jess i do remember that i was like i wonder what kind of sleek sleek colorful dress jess is going to be in this episode yeah and we decided there was an awful lot of blue blue in there but that's a whole different conversation so uh anyway what has mark got for, look, he wanted to ask about Playboy Swing and ask what you believe were the long-term effects on swinging from that particular experience.
And also, I'm going to extend that to some of the other things we've seen around swinging and just more open lifestyles that we see becoming a becoming a little more common now? Yeah, well, so Swing was such an interesting project and I almost didn't take it because, you know, just from a logistics perspective, but I'm so glad I did because, you know, it impacted people's lives so positively. So many people still to this day come up to me and say, I saw Swing and it just really changed our relationship.
And I think what it did was it created conversation and dialogue around swinging and it took it away from the sex. Yes, sex was a very important part of it. I mean, I was never there for the sex, but apparently that was an important part of it. But, you know, it really humanized and put a face and dialogue and conversation to the experience of swinging. So it really isn't just about swapping partners, but it's about the fun and the flirtation and the nerves and the buildup and more importantly, the afterglow, right? The discussion of what affected that have on our relationship.
And so I think it's what the show did and to no credit of my own at all, really, I was just a, you know, host thrown in there. But to Wendy Miller, who created the show and was managing programming for Playboy TV at the time. And in fact, Wendy has a podcast. She'd make a great guest. She has a podcast called Sex Ed the Musical now. Wow, that sounds interesting. Yeah, and, you know, she comes from television. Like she worked, you know, for the Oprah Network and NBC and then somehow got moved into Playboy TV and is really one of the best things that I think could have happened for the network.
Now, this is just my perspective because she's very bright, very funny, and created this program that helped people see that there are different ways to live your life. You might be a swinger and identify as a swinger, or you might not identify, but you can still engage in some sort of the behavior. And so that's what I can say I've observed among younger couples.
So let's say like couples kind of my age and younger, like, you know, in their twenties and thirties or early forties, um, who might've seen swinging as something that was for older people and that was for, uh, you know, other people like their parents' generation, they realized that they can do all these different things and it doesn't, you know, we don't have to qualify it as like soft swap or full swap, you know other people like their parents generation they realize that they can do all these different things and it doesn't you know we don't have to qualify it as like soft swap or full swap you know that worked for the language of the show at the time but they can they can play and they can explore and they can talk about these things or they can just watch these things and allow it to fuel their sexual desire and excitement and create a little bit of discomfort that leads to the tension and risk that makes you feel like you're in a new relationship again.
So I think it was a really cool project. I'm thankful. I can say proud, but really, it wasn't me. Really thankful to have been a part of it. Yeah. And you're so right.
I think it did create a lot of conversations between a lot of people out there and hopefully then led and hopefully then led them into you know figuring out what it was that they they were interested in or for that matter not interested in you know i think that's something we always say you talk about it doesn't mean you have to be interested in it you can turn around and say look it's not not for me and and at least you know that information now and you didn't before and i have to say just on the the self deprecation part of the conversation from your side there, please don't undermine the fact that you provided some legitimacy, I suppose, to a lifestyle at that point that hadn't been seen in that way.
So, you know, having you there as a steadying presence and as, you know, somebody who had the education behind the conversations that were being had as well that certainly drove for for me and for well i'll speak for me because i'm not sure on your behalf but certainly for me it drove the fact that this was not just a show for a show's sake it wasn't something that was thrown together for purely comedy or entertainment or or to disturb just to rock the boat it was something something that was there that had some legitimacy to it.
So, yeah, I'm going to throw a little grenade back your way and say please don't undermine yourself on that because that had an effect on the show in terms of how I perceived it as well. Oh, there you go. That's good. That's interesting. And actually, speaking about education, and Jess, I'm not going you this entire question out, but, but Melody here has, has given you a lot of props. And so I do hope you get a chance to, to read some of her praise for you, but a bit of background on Melody.
She says she's actually studying at the moment, her master of arts in psychology with concentration on gender studies as well. So that, that's, that's kind of where Melody's coming from.
And, and her question is, what what are some straightforward but whilst keeping it hot ways to express or communicate what you are comfortable with and not comfortable with and she says you know anal sex for example when you go to do all the the naked the good naked stuff you know do you drop hints or do you incorporate it into the flirt and it's kind of what you were talking about before jess with you know um consent discussions and there are ways to make it sexy so So Melody's asking. So sexy it up for us. How does she do that?
You know, how does she, how does she say what she's comfortable with, what she's maybe not, but in a sexy, in a sexy way, you know, do you have any hints or tips? Well, I think when you're saying what you don't want, you can also say what you do want. Like, I want this, but not that. I want this, but not that. And, and I think the other piece is, texting now, because so many of us are kind of connecting online and meeting online first. I think it's a great, great way to start teasing. Like, are you into this? I'm into that. Or are you into this? I'm not into it.
I just don't think it needs to be unsexy. And I wonder why people see it as unsexy. And I guess we've just framed it that way. Like we've kind of framed sex education or sexual conversations as clinical or therapeutic when they don't have to be like of course it's hot I always think like if we can reframe it to say to think if we can reframe it so that we think to ourselves they're really into this then it's going to be so much hotter like are you really into this like does this do it for you as opposed to are you okay with it right Right?
Because I don't really want to do something that you're okay with. I want to do something that feels really good for you. And similarly, you had that earlier question about like how you approach someone without being creepy. I think with any, any approach to seduction, if you do what feels good for you, as opposed to trying to follow a script or trying to only meet their needs, it's just going to be so much more engaging and more pleasurable, hopefully for both of you.
But again, we always have to have these kind of, I don't want to say always, but I think that verbal check-ins can be really helpful. Like, does that feel good? Do you want more of that? Do you want less of that? And if they're, you know, not answering you, stop. Stop and figure out if there's something else they'd rather be doing. And I think that she, you know, Melody also says here, you know, does she drop hints and incorporate it into the flirt? And to your point, Jess, you know, I think you can also say, actively give that information to that person. Heck yeah.
Rather than saying, I'm not just asking Daryl how. It's certainly a much easier way to go. Yeah, so, you know, hey, you're flirting with somebody and I can actually divulge that information. Hey, just so you know, I'm really into this or this gets me really turned on or I really like it when. You know, I think one of the things that, you know, we try to talk about is you don't need to try and ask questions of that other person.
You can also offer information and hopefully that then gives them some space and takes away that awkwardness for them to then reciprocate that and say, oh, yeah, actually I really like that too or, hey, that's interesting. You know what I prefer? I prefer X, Y, Z. Exactly. I don't know. Thank you very much, Jess, for joining us on today's podcast. We really appreciated your time this morning and we really hope that everybody gets a lot of value out of this episode. Thank you very much for meeting with us, and we look forward to catching up with you again sometime in the future.
Yes, I hope we get to meet in person. Absolutely. One day. See you later, Jess. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. If you're looking for more ways to interact with Swinging Down Under, you can catch us on Twitter at Swing Down Under.
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