Are you considering Polyamory or are you currently in a Polyamorous relationship and want to learn tools on dealing with baggage, trauma and how to navigate the relationship style?
In today’s episode we conduct 2 interviews, the first with Shai and Lea from Leveled Up Love on their relationship style and how they have navigated away from monogamy and to Polyamory.
The 2nd interview is with Dr Jay on the psychological impacts that altering your relationship style has and how we can overcome some boundaries.
Polyamorous Links
https://www.leveleduplove.com/
https://go.leveleduplove.com/experience/retreat
Lea on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lea.aella/
Shai on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/shai_the_poly_guy/
Other Links
Cate’s new TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@wanderlustswingers
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Transcript
you're listening to the wanderlust swingers podcast with aussie hosts kate and daryl if you're curious about exploring your sexuality or the swinging hot wiping and non-monogamous lifestyle you've definitely come to the right podcast or maybe you just love travel adventures either way we share our personal sometimes juicy sexy stories as well as swingers club and event reviews interviews interviews with other sassy people, and of course, our global swinging adventures. We try to bring you a look into the diverse lifestyle that the swinging and non-monogamous community has. We hope you enjoy.
Now let's get into the episode. g'day guys and welcome to episode 147. This episode is all about polyamory and polycurious peoples. Polyamory is a form of consensual non-monogamy and in today's episode I interview three polypositive people living the lifestyle and helping others overcome and understand some of the hurdles. Many people in the swinging lifestyle have questions around the what-ifs of an emotional bond I know we sure did with other people, and in today's episode, we're going to explore exactly that. Later in the episode, I interview Shai, Leah, and Dr.
J from Leveled Up Love, a community committed to helping each other learn, grow, and thrive in polyamorous lifestyles. So I hope that you enjoy today's episode, but of course course I have to start it with a little cultural tidbit. Today's cultural tidbit is actually about the United States of America and the reason being is because that's the only place I could find some decent statistics on and this is the percentage of polyamorous relationships that are identified in the United States of America.
Interestingly I found an article that talks about relationships and a study that was done in the US. And it suggests that polyamory constitutes four to 5% of people living in the United States. Now, there's not a lot of statistical data represented in the, I guess, consensual non-monogamy community in general on a global level. This is the best I could find, but I'm curious what you think the percentage would actually be of people living polyamorous relationships, living a polyamorous lifestyle in your country, or if you are in the United States in the USA.
So let me know whether or not you think that stat is bullshit or fact. What's news with us? I'm so excited to tell you guys that we actually found a house. We are living in Utrecht in the Netherlands. So huzzah. Also, also, I survived my first bike ride after drinks in the city wearing heels when we went out. So basically I am officially hashtag Dutchie. I'm just basically a Dutchie. I'm part of the Netherlands now. I've got my bike, I'm drinking, I'm going out, I'm riding everywhere and I wore heels on it. Didn't fall over, didn't crash, didn't injure myself in any way, shape or form.
So hand claps all around for me, because if you know me, you know that I am so clumsy. And so to do that and to achieve that is just like chick, chick. Excellent. And if you guys are following us on Twitter, don't forget about the 30 days of lingerie hashtag. So hashtag 30 days of lingerie that starts April 1st on Twitter. The intention of this month is to showcase body positivity, people diversity. We want everybody to join in and be part of just this really beautiful month that's been going now for a couple of years, which started by Lolo Lady in Brisbane.
So we'd love to see you guys join us. If you don't want to be part of it, then please come over and support the people who are putting themselves out there for 30 days of lingerie, show your support, like, comment, share, you know, keep it not vulgar and show everybody how much diversity exists in the sex positive community. We would absolutely love to see you guys over there. Now, TikTok banned me at 30,000 followers. So if you guys were following me on TikTok for random fun and lives and good times, unfortunately, TikTok decided that for whatever reason, I violated their terms of service.
I'm still in discussions with them trying to get the account back, but it's not looking positive. So if you were following me on TikTok, my original account is gone at 30,000 followers. But if you check the show notes today, I am going to include my backup account, my new account, and I will soon be posting some new content there after I lick my wounds for a couple of weeks, just being just generally pissed off. Okay, so let's talk about polyamory.
Now, the interesting thing about polyamory, when I think about polyamorous lifestyles, and I guess when we started our non-monogamous journey, we started to look into the different types of non-monogamy and how people approach it. And of course, polyamory does come up. And over the years, we've kind of discussed this with some of our listeners, maybe people that we've interviewed, some of our friends have been on polyamorous journeys together.
And so it's always intrigued me about, I guess, the fundamental blocks of your upbringing and what kind of impact that might have to the relationships that you guys have today. So I have a couple of questions for you guys, and I would love for you to think about them before we get into today's segment. What I'm interested in knowing is what would you say that our upbringing and our foundational blocks, how impactful are they to the kind of lifestyle we lead today?
And what I mean by that is that we all have an upbringing, culturally different depending on where you are in the world or where your parents come from, kind of the family unit that you might have. And I'm curious what ways that may impact how we look at relationships, both sexual and non-sexual, and how we kind of shape and define our lives. So my next question is, what do you think is the second biggest contributor to the way that you're living your life today, or perhaps the way you thought you should be leading your life before you joined non-monogamy.
And I personally think that society is probably the second biggest contributor to how we shape our lives. I think the foundational blocks come from our family and our upbringing, but I personally also think that society plays a massive part in what we deem to be appropriate or how we should be living our lives. And I would absolutely love to hear from you guys what your thoughts are. Talk to your spouse about it. Drop me an email. Email at wanderlarswingers.com. Really want to hear from you guys.
So then I started thinking more about this and I was wondering what I would think would happen if I had grown up in a family unit that had openly discussed alternative lifestyles and ways of living. And I don't just mean sex and relationship lifestyles. I mean everything. You know, I have a friend who became a lawyer because his parents were lawyers. His grandparents were lawyers. And so he just kind of followed suit. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with the path that he's chosen, but he did have a passion for art when we were going through high school.
And so I got to thinking about that. How does our family unit modify our behavior and what would happen if we had the luxury, I guess, of exploring a more open way of living? And again, it doesn't necessarily mean that the family unit would say, this is the only path and you should go down this one. I think it's more of a matter of, here are the available ways that you can live your life. Here are the available ways that you can identify. And there's no shame in that. And please feel free to go and research and decide which way you want to live.
And the last thing I started thinking about was, do I think I'm capable of polyamory? And I'm curious what you think about that. Do you think that you are capable of polyamory? And do you think there's a difference between polyamory between same sex or different sex people when it comes to those emotional relationship ties? Oftentimes in the swinging lifestyle, I think that we just sit back and we go, yeah, it's sex, nothing on it. You know, I like the people. They're cool. They're fun to hang out with. They like wine. I like wine.
Let's be best friends, you know, but at the end of the day, I think often we think it's no emotional bond. And so I'm curious, do you think that you would be capable of polyamory? And do you think there would be a difference between dating and having a polyamorous relationship with the same sex or opposite sex person? So that's all I have to say about polyamory. I'm now going to get into my interview with Shai and Leah from Leveled Up Love. And then after that, I'm going to share a really interesting interview with Dr.
Jay, because he's going to come and give us a little bit more about how the human brain works, how our emotional responses work when we start to see our spouse having an emotional bond with somebody else. So if you have been curious about polyamory, maybe you're polycurious, maybe you're starting on that journey, maybe you just want to know about all forms of non-monogamy, I hope that you really enjoyed this episode. And I'm going to be back after my interview with Dr. J to talk to you a little bit about what we've been up to and some things we have coming up for April.
Guys, welcome back to our polyamorous episode. And I have two very interesting subject matter experts on the line. I have Shai and Leah from Leveled Up Love. Welcome to the podcast, Shai and Leah. Hello. Thank you for having us. Hello.
Now, it is great to have you on the episode today because I don't know a lot about polyamory and some of the people in our community certainly have, I don't want to say dabbled, but maybe have started on their journey or they've thought about being polyamorous or maybe they've had that special someone come along into their life and they've thought, hmm, is this for us? So we're going to talk about polyamory, but before we do that, I'd like to maybe get a little bit of information on the two of you. Who are Shai and Leah? Sure.
Shai and Leah are the co-founders of a global community called Leveled Up Love on Facebook. This community has over 8,000 beautiful souls from all over the world who are all really gathering for a common mission, which is to learn how to create secure, fulfilling, and sustainable open relationships. So we are speakers, coaches, facilitators, but really most of all, we are on our own journey teaching from the foxhole and just trying to connect people who are interested in this way of life to the kinds of experts and guides that can help them through that journey.
And so are you in a polyamorous relationship together? What does your relationship style look like? Yeah, we've been polyamorous since we've met about six years ago. And I've been dabbling on the non-monogamy spectrum. I've explored different styles, but for the two of us, it's been polyamory for the last six years. Okay. So you met straight away and then went straight into a polyamorous relationship six years ago. That's really, really interesting that I guess you've got that history in non-monogamy, but that your relationship just went straight out of the gate into here's what we're after.
Exactly. Well, in a manner of speaking, he was actually polyamorous before I met him. I had just come out of a gate into here's here's what we're after exactly well in a manner of speaking he was actually polyamorous before i met him i had just come out of a 12-year monogamous marriage literally weeks after that happened we met and he was very well experienced with it i would say that that was the template that if i chose to explore that was the template to do it and i thought hey, after that experience, why not try to explore a different side of love that I hadn't seen before?
And obviously, it's working out very well for you. When we look at non-monogamy, and you mentioned the spectrum before, there are so many different ways that people approach things. What is, in your opinion, the biggest misunderstanding of polyamory?
gosh i wish we had three hours but let's see I would say the the top misperceptions that I hear is first that there's no commitment in polyamory it's just an open revolving door of people no one commits everyone's avoiding true intimacy and depth and I was one of those people because I had a very specific notion that depth and commitment was only available in monogamy. And I couldn't have been more wrong.
What polyamory forces you to do is rather than building the entire foundation of safety and commitment upon one Jenga block, if you're building a Jenga tower and you're building a whole tower on top of one block, which is exclusivity, when you remove that, the entire tower comes crashing down. So in this case, we have to learn how to redefine commitment and depth in other languages than exclusivity.
And that can actually lead to a very, very rich and even more secure foundation because now your security is built on so many other things than just being the only people you're allowed to interface with. And so had you in your 12 year monogamous marriage then, had you ever heard of polyamory? You said you had this, I guess, preconceived notion yourself. Were you even aware that this kind of lifestyle existed when you were monogamous? No, I was aware of non-monogamy, especially the non-consensual kind.
But I had experiences with my ex where we would go to strip clubs and I was beginning to understand that I had bisexual aspects to myself and also we had a friend couple who made a total mess out of trying to open something up in a very unconscious way so that was sort of my exposure when i heard of polyamory my mind traveled to a preconceived notion i think a lot of people have around communes and harems and and things like that And once again, going through this process with Shai, I realized I had really a lot backwards. I couldn't have been more wrong.
It's not to say that doesn't happen, but it is such a wide spectrum that really the sky's the limit with what's possible. And that was just not something I was able to see in monogamy. If I could chime in on that, a big question, too, is when people say polyamory, it does mean different things to different people. Yes. A lot of people take that label and some people in the swinger community consider themselves polyamorous. So it's important to differentiate what defines polyamory for different people. For us, at least for me, one of the aspects is a metamor relationship.
Leah actually just came up with an amazing new term called ecoamory. So where we put a lot of emphasis on building friendships with our metamores, that means if Leah picks up a new partner, a new lover, my relationship with that man is a really important part of what we do. And for me, that is what distinguishes polyamory from other non-monogamous styles. That's right, because people do approach things so very differently. And we have polyamorous friends where they don't engage with their partners, other partners.
They may see them when they come over and drop something off or hang out or in passing, but they don't really have, I guess, any kind of even surface friendship relationship. So you're digging in a little bit more where you want the people that Leah are seeing to have a relationship in some way, shape or form with you as well. Exactly. It's not required to do polyamory, which is really full emotional relationships, romantic relationships.
However, we have found that with our eco-amory approach, it generates a more familial atmosphere that creates more generous thoughts, more giving attitudes, more just feel good feelings going all around. For example, I'm dating someone with Leah and they're relatively new to polyamory. So I've done a really, I think, good job reaching out to that, our partner's husband, and, you know, just offering support, and so on. And that's gone really well, you know, because then at the end of the day, what separates polyamory from just an open relationship, or don't ask, don't tell relationship, right?
So at least, again, for me, that's what distinguishes polyamory from other open relationship styles okay so we've done the misconceptions which is the hippie commune lots of bare breasts running around and gardening right that's the if you're into that i'm not judging but actually to be honest like the way the way things are changing in the world today and with you know co-sharing financial responsibilities and gardening i'm all about it but my my next question then I mean we've spoken about the benefits I guess at a surface level of polyamory but surely there's going to be hurdles you know when somebody's changing their relationship from a monogamous one or starting even just a brand new I guess exploration into a polyamorous one what are some of the key hurdles some of the key problems or barriers that people might face joining this kind of relationship style?
It's a great question. One of the best books that's answered this is the Polyamory Breakup Book by Kathy Labriola, who's actually one of our VIP coaches.
But in general, what's interesting is that people think that the hurdles are profoundly different than in monogamy, and they're actually not actually share a lot of the same hurdles but what we experience when people start opening up is they dive in too fast it's like once you start realizing this way of life is possible all of a sudden all of these years of repression and restraint have just like are bursting at the seams to just explode and start dating everyone and create relationships and interrupt the flow of family time.
And there's a lot at stake for many people who are considering opening relationships, children, homes, businesses, you know, families. So what I like to say is if we were going to learn to ride a bike or learn to drive a car or learn to perform surgery, we would get a lot of training, a lot of guidance and practice. And amazingly, this is not what we receive when we go into love in either whatever form it is. So we always like to say, like, if you're going to climb Mount Everest, you don't do it naked with no shoes, no guide and no rescue plan.
So you have to start asking questions like, what are the slowest steps we can take to start exploring? How am I going to feel when I see you look at another person and you're allowed to do that?
How am I going to feel when you tell me you're attracted to a person when you want to go on a date with another person when you actually want to spend time with because you're excited about this person how are we going to stair step and handle those conversations because what i'll tell you is that what polyamory will do is if you have any insecurities in love at all polyamory has the potential of bringing them all to the surface it makes it a powerful vehicle for healing, but only if that container is really geared towards helping each other through rather than leaving people kind of on the sidelines to deal with their own stuff.
So with that being said, the kind of mentality, I guess, of walking before we run. Yes, crawling. Yeah, crawling even. Do you then suggest that people explore other avenues of non-monogamy before jumping into a polyamorous relationship so they can see, how do I feel when X happens? What are my thoughts when this goes wrong? You know, et cetera. What are your thoughts? Do you have to have, is that the crawling before the walking before the running or does it not work like that at all? That's a really good question.
When I get these complicated questions, I always refer back to our core human needs. We all want to feel safe, seen and loved. We all want variety, growth and service. So having these conversations and digging deep into which of these needs do you lead with as a person based on your own life cocktail and experiences and history of wounding. And based on the answers to those questions, you start to formulate a plan.
So if you are somebody who just sees yourself wanting more safety, emotional safety, and for you, the strategy is to have a steadfast rule that you don't fall in love with people you have sex with, then maybe swinging is a better way to start because that's how you can get your emotional safety need met and variety at the same time however for some people they might want deeper connection and love and not just who they are when before they have sex and that means that for you being poly is the better strategy to start with but it all depends it's such you have to take a deeper dive into each partner's core human needs and how they lead with those needs well let's take a deep dive because i am going to put you on the hot seat soon but before i do that i want to put myself on the hot seat you have a quiz that's called ready for polyamorous relationships on your, I took the quiz earlier today, and I'm in a non-monogamous relationship now.
I identify more on the swinging side. I'm a bisexual woman. I scored 69 out of 100. Does that mean that you just said before everybody's journey is different? Maybe it's not for you. Is it not for me? I mean, what does 69 out of 100 scoring mean for me? Am I not built for polyamory? Well, I'd have to know exactly how you answer those specific questions in the quiz. That would give me a better understanding of where you're at. But generally, believe it or not, that's an above average score, actually. So you're kind of on the right track of being ready.
So with a little bit of refinement, you can get up to an 80 out of a hundred say, right? So you're not like some people come in, it's scores of like 20, 30, 40. They just have no preparation for at least a successful open relationship. And are those the kinds of people that don't want you to eat a chip off their plate? Because I actually have a real problem with people that don't share foods. Ooh, you and me. I share that. Okay. So really what you're saying is maybe everybody on some level is available to learn more about this, but it's all down to our own personal emotions.
And I guess some of the upbringing that we've been privy to, right? I mean, that's how we would know whether or not this is going to work, whether we need to, I guess, retune ourselves, think in a different way. Yeah. And, you know, I don't like to get caught up in scores and labels and have that sort of determine someone's destiny in this. To Shai's point, it's really a starting point. And it's really more about thinking about various aspects of what could be different about the way we're doing things now.
How would I feel if someone has told you about past sexual exploits from an ex partnership? How do you feel about that versus your emotional depth with that person? How do you feel when someone's really attracted to someone else or really thinks they're amazing? How do you feel about your partner having other deep friendships with people who could be their love partner? So I think that's more of the interesting area to drill into versus making it too much about like the readiness level.
That is an interesting, interesting thought process as well, because I, again, I kind of go back to my own emotional journey since I became non-monogamous and yeah, hearing your partner talk about past lovers or hearing them talk about somebody they find attractive, or like you just said, maybe even a deeper emotional connection, it can bring up thoughts and feelings that they're just dormant and you have no idea until they kind of bubble up to the surface, right? Yes.
And then when you actually see them act on that versus first exploring how all that's going to feel, that can feel very challenging for a lot of people. I really feel like this is going in the direction of some potential virtual reality sessions here because I can see that that might be a benefit to people to physically see that and then feel the elevated heart rate and stuff like that. I think we might be onto something. With biometric feedback, right? Exactly. Yes. I'm a yes. I'm going to put you guys on the hot seat.
After I looked at the quiz and scored my 69 of 100, I started looking around the Leveled Up Love website. And on there, you talk about how polyamorous jealousy can be frustrating. And so my question really is then, what makes you so skilled to talk about things that might influence how people do react, things like past trauma, which could impact yourself or a relationship. So walk me through, I guess, how you're able to help people. Wow. You know, that's a really great question with kind of a few angles we want to answer.
When we say it's frustrating, we're more talking about the response to it. but we say that with a tremendous well of compassion because we feel that jealousy is an invaluable teacher and guide towards helping each other heal and healing ourselves personally shine i don't have any fancy degrees from institutions around psychiatry or psychology but we are students of, the nervous system, complex PTSD, and we're literally learning, implementing, testing, and teaching as we go from that foxhole, as I said.
You know, when we can't find our own answers, much of the way that we've grown is by pulling in the experts who we rely on. So maybe Shai can speak to that. Yeah, we've surrounded surrounded ourselves with gosh, I've lost count, maybe over 20 coaches, guides, psychotherapists who often come and help build our program. And what we do is we do focus on on trauma healing and healing past wounds and relationships from a variety of aspects, including we have one guide who comes and talks about the use of plant medicine to heal trauma, psychedelic medicine.
We have another guide who comes in and focuses on BDSM and kink and parts work to heal past wound.
We have Tantra is a big part of the workshops that we have to help partners slow down everything slow down how they handle a rupture in an open relationship and how they touch each other how they make love like really just slowing things down so i think a combination of our own studying our own coaching experience we've had some great success and surrounding ourselves but with an incredible team where we can source even more knowledge as needed to support whoever's in, you know, feels like they need that support. It definitely sounds like these people are surgeons.
You just said a rupture in your relationship. And my immediate thought was these, you know, relationship experts standing over the top of a couple just going, okay, here, we're going to operate this like scalpel, pass this to me. It's actually pretty accurate.
Yeah, it's like a superhero team with different specialties and we're going to operate this like scalpel pass this to me it's actually pretty accurate yeah it's like a superhero team with different specialties and oh we're gonna we're gonna need a little bdsm here a little tantra there some magic mushrooms over here and then and then you're back back in good shape mix it all up in that beautiful cauldron that's right so is that what the secure poly collective is because again i was looking through the website the Poly Collective came up a number of times when I guess these panelists, these experts were there.
Is that what the Poly Collective is? What is it? And I guess, why create a community that is outside of other non-monogamous communities? Why have it just be that that Poly Collective? Sure. Well, Polyamory does have its own unique aspects to it.
it however we're finding that there are some monogamous partners in the secure poly collective and folks on more on the swinger side of the spectrum as well because a lot of the workshops that we have really just help you win in relationships period and the secure poly collective is a collection of experts who facilitate workshops anywhere from 75 minutes to 90 minutes. And we have multiple workshops per month in a particular, not in a particular sequence, but to address the five main pitfalls of non-monogamous relationships. The first being community, so we have community-type events.
The second being education, starting with communication, which is one of our favorite things to teach emotional attunement nervous system regulation and so forth the third being addressing trauma i think a lot of people in open relationships just don't address the elephant in the room we all have little t trauma where you know you've had experiences that are with you that you've buried from childhood and from other relationships so workshops that address different trauma healing modalities then there's um dating that's another pitfall that we cover so we try to offer solutions for people dating as polyamorous people because that's a whole animal in itself and then also there's this other pitfall that is a legitimate one, which is losing a depth in your relationship.
Love is, some would argue, limitless, but time is not. It's finite. So slowing down and having really high quality connections with all your partners, I think is a really important piece. If the quantity of connections is going to be hampered by an open relationship and using Tantra to slow down and deepen connection when you are with your partner is another set of workshops that is included in the Secure Poly Collective. So stepping away from our goddamn phones and actually spending some quality time together, I imagine would come up at some point during these discussions.
That is not relegated to polyamory in any way shape or form. If anything polyamory forces you to recognize that there are other people now taking the time and attention away from your relationship so it's hard to get complacent. Now you really have to work to create and schedule and plan quality time together so that you're nourishing your connection and creating that specialness in the face of other connections being out there. I'd love to add there was an element of why did we create another yet another polyamory community, right?
So in total vulnerability, what we found most challenging in the beginning is we just felt utterly alone in our process and the way we were doing things, how we were doing it. I couldn't seem to find other books or anything to describe what we were doing. So when I would try to go online to find support in other communities, what I found was there was a very harsh mentality sent towards anyone who felt jealous or scared or had rules and restrictions. It was almost like if you couldn't go to the Olympics, you shouldn't be allowed in the pool at all.
And with a lot of the trauma that I've experienced around feeling rejected and not belonging, I felt like there was nowhere for me to go. So we created our community to to create create a space where no one will feel alone with their feelings. All emotions, all scared parts are welcome. And we hold those tender parts in community so that we can all heal together. Yeah. And you're right. I mean, even if we take jealousy, sometimes in the swing lifestyle, you'll see people say, well, if you're jealous, you shouldn't be doing this. And I'm of a complete different mindset.
I don't see jealousy as, you know, the green-eyed monster that's going to come and eat us all. I see it as a part of general human emotion that can be recognized, evaluated, and then actioned after. You know, I don't see it as a problematic thing. I think it's a very human, natural reaction. We recognize it. We don't let it take over, but you know, certainly we can do something about it on the other end. I think just kind of suggesting that nobody should have these human emotions. Well, we're not, we're not bloody robots. You know what I mean?
And oftentimes this is the first time we're doing this. So cut us some slack. Exactly. Yep. It's all about how it's looked at and handled and held. And jealousy is also a very useful emotion that allowed us to survive this long as human beings. It protects Thank you. It's all about how it's looked at and handled and held. And jealousy is also a very useful emotion that allowed us to survive this long as human beings. It protects our resources. So sometimes it's coming up for a valid reason too. And I think that's important to keep in mind. Absolutely.
Now you're hosting an event in April that's kind of, I guess, bringing all of these things together. And it's a very specific, very niche event. So I guess as we're getting ready to wrap up and lead out, talk about your event in Florida this April. What's the point of the event? Who is it aimed at? What are we looking at here? And I guess, how is it different from other events that might exist out there? And I'm not just talking about swinging events, but just non-monogamy in general. I'm not sure that this event, the open love experience, is like anything we've ever seen.
It's kind of a combination of all the good things that you'd find, maybe at high-end swinger events and also maybe polyamory seminars. It's basically a high-end retreat for couples that are curious about consensual non-monogamy. of them may be in the swinger community some of them may be monogamish and wanting to explore so we'll have a full day of education we're going to be bringing in some top speakers like jessica fern the author of polysecure for example and these are going to be a series of events we really see huge potential There's a lot of demand for us to launch this event.
So the first day will be full of education, more in a speaker format. The second day will be coaching, deep dive coaching, both in groups and private one-on-one coaching. And then we're going to incorporate private festival style performances. If think Cirque du Soleil, think like a bit of extravagance in terms of performances. And then all that leading into a very centrally erotic evening that I think our attendees won't soon forget. Well, it sounds good. Sounds good to me. I mean, it sounds like a lot of work. So you've got seminars, you've got coaching and stuff on site.
So when I look at different events that we've been to or seen, I around the non-monogamous communities your event really does start to lend itself to coming away differently transformation yeah transformation of sorts is that kind of the the mindset that you're aiming towards giving people tools having them in sessions letting them bring everything to the table so when they walk away they're actually walking away with something that's not just hey I had a great weekend but it's a little bit more in depth that's exactly right yeah we don't want want it to be a party and we don't want it to not be a party and then we also don't want it to be just a lot of you know intellectual labor and lectures and seminars and we want the coaching the teaching to be transformative we want people to walk away opened up and different than when they came in so you're spot on with your assessment and so that was the open love experience so guys if you are listening to the episode today and we've spoken about a lot of different links so we've spoken about leveled up love we've spoken about this cure poly collective open love experience everything that we've spoken about today is going to be in the show notes so you can connect with Shai and Leah.
And I really, really appreciate all of your time today talking to me about polyamory, Shai and Leah. Is there anything that you'd like to leave us with as we get ready to exit out of the interview today? Yeah. I mean, what we just want to say is that this is a really big, beautiful, unexplored territory. Even for those in the swinger your community where there's an openness, it can really feel like a much bigger challenge when it involves matters of the heart. And what we want people to know that we didn't know when we started is that whatever you're feeling or experiencing, you are not alone.
And we believe that you truly heal in community. And that is what we're setting out to do. So we welcome it all. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you again for joining me on the podcast today. And I can't wait to hear more about everything that you're doing in the coming months. And maybe we can check back in after April and see how everything went. Perfect. Sounds good. Thanks for having us. Thank you, guys. All right, everybody, welcome back. We have been talking about polyamory. You've just heard from Shai and Leah from Level Up Love. And now I have the luxury of having Dr.
J on the phone with me. Welcome to the show, Dr. J. Thank you, Kate. It's a pleasure to be here. Now, among other things, I know that you are a licensed counselor, nationally certified psychologist, you're a certified diplomat at the Academy of Mental Health Practitioners, diplomat in psychotherapy. You're very impressive. I mean, there's a there's a host of other things that I could go on and on and on about about you.
But before we dig into, I guess, some of the psychological changes that may occur when we change something in our life and certainly our relationship style, how about you kind of dig a little bit deeper, tell a little bit about Dr. J and who you are. Yeah, I'd be happy to. My greatest successes are my failures. Honestly, I've really failed forward in many ways in relationships. So I have the unique and somewhat unique experience of being married and divorced to the same person twice. The mother of my four beautiful children, she got cancer during our divorce initially.
And as a result of that experience, I decided to go back. We reconciled. And then we continued to live together for about eight years, raising our children and getting her cancer free. We did come to a mutual decision several years back where we reinitiated the divorce and learned a good lesson in life. Doing the noble thing for others is not always the right thing for you. And so we've uncoupled and are still best friends and co-parents today. I am remarried, have been for the last five years, four years in the erotic lifestyle.
I'd identify myself as polycurious in that I'm more interested in the emotional, spiritual, physical connection. My spouse currently would identify herself more as consensually non-monogamous, more of a lifestyle interest absent the emotional connection. So we're in an interesting conversation ourselves about poly at the moment. Well, I mean, first of all, let me just say that I'm glad to hear that your previous partner I have a good idea. style interest absent the emotional connection. So we're in an interesting conversation ourselves about poly at the moment.
Well, I mean, first of all, let me just say that I'm glad to hear that your previous partner had recovered from cancer and that you were there to support that family unit. I mean, cancer touches so many of us. So thank you. That's amazing. And I'm very happy to hear about the health changes there. But yes, what an interesting story.
And so you're currently identifying as polycurious, your partner's identifying more of consensual non-monogamy i mean that in itself must be i guess quite a challenge to navigate it is quite a challenge and it just highlights i think some of the unique dynamics and issues for those of us that venture out you know into this type the subtype of uh of relationship. I mean, the beauty is that today we have many, many choices. But what's true is that those choices come with many complex dynamics, which I know we're going to get into today.
And I think it just further indicates to me, and I'm assuming to the listeners as well, that there isn't a one box fits all within even a couple, you know, not just to mention the broader public, you know, even with a couple, there's decisions, there's different interests, you know, so that is really intriguing, because I know that sometimes people may battle with something as simple as one partner being an introvert and one partner being an extrovert, but you've got an additional layer on top of that.
Absolutely in fact the term that i use these days is designer relationships i mean truly we do get to design and create and construct our own relationships and while that's very liberating for many of us what's also true is that many of us are just not prepared for the territory emotionally and psychologically that that takes us into and that's a great i guess showcase for the next section Thank you. that many of us are just not prepared for the territory emotionally and psychologically that that takes us into.
And that's a great, I guess, showcase for the next section here, because we do want to get deep with some of the ways that we emotionally react to changing things in our lives. So I guess my question at a foundational level is how much, if any, does that early childhood or societal impact shape our opinion on what a successful relationship looks like, how we should be within that relationship, I guess the dynamic between the two partners. What does that early childhood, those, I guess, foundational years, what impact does that have on us? That is such an important question, Kate.
We can do a whole podcast on that, I'm sure, but it determines everything about our relationships because the quality of our relationships is definitely determined by the quality of our relationships, and that is influenced significantly by our early childhood experiences. In my work with couples, there are three specific areas that I look at in terms of early childhood impact. The first is woundology, your family of origin, and the attachment style that comes from those experiences. The second would be trauma history, and the fact that all toxicity in families is not created equal.
Some is, in fact, traumatic, and we bring that into our relationships. And then the third is relational literacy or lack thereof. People vary a lot in terms of their competencies and skills in managing relationships. So these three things I think are the most important and we can drill into each if that's useful. And what about society? So we've got that foundational block from our early childhood, then we start kind of going out into the world. As a child, you start watching maybe TV shows or movies where monogamy is heavily represented.
So what impact does then society have on those building blocks of what we consider to be normal? Yeah, it's huge. So the nature-nurture question's really been answered. It's both, right? So I think these things interact with each other. So our early childhood conditioning, learning, and, you know, genetic heritage that we bring with us is definitely interacts with whatever societal, cultural conditioning goes along.
So, you know, most of us are still recovering from the influences of patriarchy where relationship models have been prescriptive and largely limiting you know mostly for for women but i would also make the argument somewhat limiting for men as well and so both have suffered as a result of that you know in terms of notions and assumptions for how we're supposed to be inside of relationships and anything that deviates from that is, in fact, deviant.
So it's a huge impact in our ability to really unpack that and understand how these experiences, both childhood and culturally, have affected us is really the first step in being successful in any relationship, but especially polyamory. Well, let's talk about that. So I'm bringing my three luggage bags along to our relationship, Dr. J. I've got my woundology, I've got my trauma history and my relationship literacy. They're all my three bags that I'm bringing along to my new relationship with Dr. J. What impact does that then have on me?
And I guess then by extension, my partner, when we're considering a consensual non-monogamous relationship? Yeah. So woundology, family of origin, we all bring ourselves wherever we go. And we also take those early family experiences into every relationship where we love somebody. So the thing that people must realize is that no matter how smart or sophisticated we are, we're all wounded in some way, regardless of what level of awareness we have about who, when, and what actually wounded us.
And our ability to understand that, our ability to come to grips with that, our ability to identify what we call in psychology, our attachment style. How do we manage ourselves within intimate relationships is influenced by whatever happened growing up in that family. Did we experience love? Was it conditional or unconditional? Was it toxic? Did we experience neglect, abuse, abandonment, withdrawal, lack of empathy, caring, responsiveness, all of those experiences early in life affect that attachment style, and they will have a direct impact on how we navigate intimacy.
And if we're talking about poly, this is where it gets really interesting. So we have this thing called a central nervous system, which is literally our heart wiring. And it has unlimited bandwidth for memory. And so every emotional experience we've ever had, good, bad, or otherwise, gets coded inside that central nervous system. And when we enter into intimate relationship, whatever is happening in the context of that gets triggered.
And so these reactions that we often see in people that lead to intense conflict, whether that's jealousy or insecurity, often has a history which predates the relationship. And the challenge is that most people have not mapped that territory incredibly well.
So they wind up being in the wrong conversation about the wrong issue and often missing each other and doing damage to the relationship because of that so i'm actually just reading right now about different attachment styles and one of them that is particularly interesting to me as i think about and mold myself into perhaps a polyamorous relationship is the anxious attachment styles you know it says here that there's clinginess fear of abandonment needs constant reassurance so i can imagine carrying some of those baggages into a polyamorous or really any consensual non-monogamous relationship would be difficult so what do you normally say to somebody when you know if i were to come to you and i'll say dr j i have this anxious attachment style i have a fear of abandonment but i want to try and work on this with my partner and become consensual non-monogamous.
I mean, how does one work through that? Yeah, well, first I'd say congratulations. Most people don't have that level of awareness and distinction. So, you know, the first step is to get it, right? Like you really have to educate yourself.
Poly, more than any model of relationship, will trigger us more more than any other and so knowing that is really the first step of managing it having that awareness knowing what those triggers are knowing where they come from and and most importantly being able to talk about them transparently openly with full vulnerability and support i mean it's really the essence of a conscious relationship, which is really, I think, the distinction of people that do poly. You can't do it and be unconscious because these triggers will just eat your lunch. So the first step is being aware of it.
The second is being cognizant of what needs you have that are represented by those triggers and those wounds. For example, that might mean when your poly partner is on a date, there may be an increased need for reassurance, for connection, for a reassuring text, for a ritual of reintegration following time with a poly partner. There are a lot of ways that you can manage it if you're in the right conversation.
And the right conversation is each person being able to take full responsibility for their own trigger and then extract from that trigger what is the need that is represented by this triggering and how can we negotiate meeting that need in our relationship? I just want to point out that I really love the term you just mentioned, reintegration. Sometimes when I see some content being produced and I see that reclaim word, it triggers me a little bit. So I've heard of reconnect, reintegration to me, thank you for using that. That's a new term. I haven't heard it before.
I much prefer it over this whole reclaiming process. Yeah, that's a good point, Kate. And I like the word reintegrate because there's a certain amount of primacy in a coupleship that's important to protect, particularly in the domain of polyamory. And by primacy, I mean that my partner has a certain place, a certain position, a certain relevancy, a certain value, a certain importance in my life. And the fact that I choose to love more than one doesn't eradicate or eliminate that.
And so the reintegration is an opportunity to reestablish that, you know, particularly if there is an attachment style in your example, for reference, that is anxious, you know, that anxious style will be hyper vigilant and looking for potential threat or signs of rejection or abandonment. And part of that reintegration is providing your partner with the love and the reassurance that they need to feel safe. So let's talk about that a little bit more then.
When you start to see your partner, I guess, interact with another person and in the swinging lifestyle, that might just be the person's having sex with somebody. We get asked this question all the time, Dr. J, what happens when you see your partner with somebody for the first time? But polyamory takes this to a different level. This is now saying what happens to our brain and our body on an emotional level when we see our partner having that emotional connection to another person? Yeah, that's a big one. I have experienced it myself. Yeah, it's kind of like getting hijacked.
Your emotions get hijacked. So what's going on in the brain? A couple of things. First, Freud, he was kind of a strange guy, but he was rather brilliant, right? So we have to look at the role of unconscious motivation, which was really one of his contributions. So much like the iceberg with the smallest part of what's seen is above the water, the largest piece of that iceberg is beyond sight. Same thing with human behavior. Most of what drives our behavior occurs outside of our conscious awareness, unless we enter into a conscious relationship with ourselves and our partner.
So the impact of seeing your partner enjoy, have pleasure, be attached and connected to another human being is really an emotional tsunami of sorts where our central nervous system turns on like a Christmas tree on the holidays. I mean, everything gets activated. And what often will get activated are those attachment wounds, those trauma wounds that all of us have. You know, you don't have to have been abused to have a trauma, a wound. I'm working with a woman right now who, you know, her trauma was a divorce as a young child.
And she's having intense triggering inside the context of a poly relationship, which goes right back to the day when she was nine years old that her dad walked out of the house and became a distant father following a divorce. And that's a very common experience for most of us. So it doesn't have to be extreme for it to be significant.
And you are going to get triggered if you choose poly as a model, for actually that's something that leah and i actually discussed during my earlier interview we spoke about you know jealousy being the green-eyed monster and one of the things that i have always said and you can probably say this much more eloquently given your background but i was very jealous when we first started our journey into non-monogamy and one of the things that helped me along the way was acknowledgement of that issue and and sharing that with my partner you know I used to be very ashamed of the fact that I was jealous and I just kind of stopped and I said okay this is a normal human reaction I'm jealous hey Daryl I'm jealous and then his response would be okay well what's maybe triggered it how can we fix this or do better next time is that what you would recommend for these other attachment styles like that fear of abandonment and those types of things is is recognizing and then putting into practice ways to i guess drive some more solutions absolutely first thank you for that comment i think that's really important for listeners to uh to hear that that the experience of jealousy does not mean that you're weak.
It doesn't mean that you have deep-seated psychological issues. It means you're human. Jealousy is an emotional experience which lets us know that we need reassurance about something because there's a threat to someone or something that we value immensely.
So the task is to own the emotion, name it for what it is, and translate the feeling of being jealous into a specific need in the form of an action request that your partner can meet for you, rather than how often it is dealt with where it's a projection, like you're making me feel horrible, and it's your your fault and you need to change how I feel. That's the wrong conversation. The right conversation is to translate the feeling into a need and then make a request of your partner that's reasonable for them to meet that reassures you.
So rather than saying for this example, then we might say rather than saying you are making me jealous because of your actions, would a way that I could say that then would be I'm feeling jealous because this has occurred. I'm feeling jealous because this has occurred. What I need from you and would make me feel amazing is if you could do this. May I ask that of you? Brilliant. Good takeaway then. Workable solutions is what I like. I'm a little bit OCD like that. So, you know, I like to hear that, hey, if there's a problem, what's the solution?
So, and it doesn't always work out in emotional situations, but we try, we do our best. We do our best. I mean, it's complicated. There's a lot of moving parts when a trigger goes off. I always like to lead out then with some gold star advice when I'm interviewing people and given your background, given your knowledge and even your personal lifestyle, personal relationship experience, what would be maybe three things that you might say to somebody who's considering a polyamorous relationship?
And feel free to deviate from somebody who might just be going from a monogamous relationship directly into polyamory. Maybe you can even talk about if you were going from other forms of consensual non-monogamy into polyamory. Take it where you like, but we'd love some helpful tips from you, Dr. J. Yeah, thanks. Great question, Kate. Yeah, I'd say number one, do your work. And by that, I mean, there's a lot of personal development work that has to go in to becoming a conscious partner, and that's really what it requires.
So specifically, commit to a community that can support you, like leveleduplove.com, a great community. There are plenty of resources out there, but that's a particularly great one. Attend specialized events that are designed to equip you with the skills that you need for a conscious, open relationship. In fact, Level Up Love has one June 8th called the Open Love Experience, which I would definitely check out. I think doing individual and couples therapy or coaching on an ongoing and intermittent basis is brilliant. Great investment of time and resource. Have a trigger management plan.
We've been talking about triggers today. Every couple needs to anticipate that they will be triggered and discuss how you're going to deal with that. And here's straight up advice. If you don't want to do the work necessary to do polyamory well, don't do it. Just don't do it because it is like a nuclear reactor. It can light up a city and make it shine or it can implode one. And you don't want to become a divorce statistic with an experimental model. The second thing I think couples need to do is ask smarter questions.
I'm a strong believer that the quality of the questions we ask really determine how successful life can be. There's a couple of specific ones I would ask of couples coming into this territory. First one being, is opening a relationship a solution to a problem? A lot of people seek solutions to marriage problems by opening their relationship. That's a disaster waiting to happen. So make sure you do a gut check there. Asking yourself, what type or configuration of open do you feel most safe exploring?
There are many subtypes of polyamory today, and they're all very different depending upon the individual preferences, attachment style, trauma history, and just desires of people? What role will emotional connection and attachment play in your lifestyle choices? And are you prepared for the challenges like the jealousy we just talked about that will go with that? Really important gut check questions there.
And the third thing I would say is what needs are being met by choosing poly or cnm as a lifestyle you know human beings have uh only six needs we all vary in how important they are but why are you doing this what's the motive for doing this the six needs would be safety significance love and connection variety growth and contribution again we all have the same wants but we all seek them in different order and preference and we at the end of the day we choose a model of relationship based on our needs set so be explicit be transparent with your partner about what needs you're attempting to fulfill by your decision to be in a polyamorous relationship and And I guess really one of the things you just mentioned at the very beginning of that section there, and it kind of leads a little bit back to your designer relationships comment earlier, is that it's not going to be for everybody.
You know, I think that some of the time there's so much fear involved with taking this step forward. But I think also that we must realize we can do a U-turn within the boundaries of our relationship if we're opening our communication. And it doesn't need to be that's the path you're on. It's a one-way street and you must go forward. It's not a monopoly board. That's exactly right.
Listen, one of the things that we need to do is slow down and just really check in, like really drop in to our hearts, our souls and in our partners and make sure that whatever model or type of relationship that we're choosing, that we're available, we're ready, we're prepared. And if we're not, just slow down, slow down and focus on doing that work to prepare you for this territory, because it's really one that we're not prepared for culturally or from those family of origin experiences. It's uncharted territory.
Yeah, and it's not to say that this isn't a beautiful way to have your relationship style, but absolutely having that foundational work and knowledge and understanding of how things may occur, I think, is always the best way to go about something. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, Dr. J, I know that we can find you with the LeveledUpLove.com team, and I know that you're going to be heading over to the Open Love Experience in June. But is there anything else that you would like to leave our listeners with today before we head out?
Just that love is the most important thing, I think, in the world, and we need a whole lot more of it. So my compliment to those of you out there in your listening audience who take it serious enough to be mindful, conscious, and committed to evolving, to love at the highest level possible. Well, thank you so much, Dr. J. And everybody listening, please join me in thanking Dr. J.
for his for his time today his knowledge and continuing to learn more both about yourself but even within your work we really appreciate having somebody like you in the community that can help us so thank you so much for your time thank you kate appreciate you all right guys so i really hope that you enjoyed those two interviews if you have any questions about polyamory please do reach out to the team at leveled up love so big thank you to shy leah and dr j from leveled up love if you're interested in a more polyamorous focused event they do have an event coming up in florida in june and that was the open love experience.com that they mentioned please head over and check out that website if you are thinking about how to navigate polyamory.
So of course, as always, check the show notes. I've got a bunch of links in there for you guys if you are interested in navigating polyamory. And as we get ready to wrap up here, I wanted to give you guys a few more updates about what's happening with us.
We have coming up a very, very fun episode where we're doing two truths and a lie but swinger sex stories edition so that'll be out in early april daryl and i are going to record that in the next couple of days and i really hope that you enjoy that fun and to try and figure out where we're telling a lie and where we're telling a truth and on the first of april we are heading up to amsterdam to attend a secret underground party They do takeovers in various cities around Europe, and I've actually been following them for a number of years, and I'm really excited to head to the Amsterdam party.
So we're going there on the 1st of April on Friday, but we're going to release a podcast episode all about that coming up soon. So if you guys are interested in hanging around for April, we've got those sex stories coming up and I'll review and I guess dirty details about what happened at the secret underground party in Amsterdam. But I do have to give a big shout out to our patrons. Our newest patrons for this month are Scott, Lisa and Tim, Stacey and Chuck. And we actually reached a massive milestone for the Wanderlust Swingers podcast. We had 100 patrons sign up as of the other day.
So that is the first time we've ever hit the 100 patron milestone before. And I really just want to say thank you to everybody who supports us. We really, really appreciate that. So if you do join us over on Patreon, here's some of the extra content we have coming up. We are going to be doing some behind the scenes club tours in both Amsterdam and the UK for our Patreon members.
We're also going to be producing a new YouTube video with tours and your name will of course go up on those YouTube videos as a sponsored person helping us to create those YouTube videos and those tours which are just invaluable I think for the lifestyle so people can see that we're not all a bunch of freaks. And the last thing is that I'm going to be doing the 30 days of lingerie for April, of course, on Twitter. But if you want to see some behind the scenes, some additional photos, stuff that I'm not going to be sharing on Twitter, then I'm going to be putting all of that up on Patreon.
So you're going to get the club tours and behind the scenes, a YouTube channel dedication and some of my 30 days of lingerie behind the scenes.
So if you guys want to head over to patreon.com forward slash swinging down under or check the show notes it's five bucks a month and you are supporting us and our endeavors to normalize alternative lifestyles all right guys i hope you enjoyed that episode on polyamory let me know what you think email at wanderlarswingers.com and i look forward to coming and talking to you guys and figuring out if you know when i'm telling a lie sex stories edition bye guys guys and figuring out if, uh, you know, when I'm telling a lie, sex stories edition. Bye guys.
