Are Dirty Vanillas A Swingers Lifestyle Epidemic?

Transcript

Speaker1: You're listening to the Wanderlust Swingers podcast with Aussie hosts Kate and Darrell. If you're curious about exploring your sexuality or the swinging, hot-wifing and non-monogamous lifestyle, you've definitely come to the right podcast. Or maybe you just love travel adventures. Either way, we share our personal, sometimes juicy, sexy stories as well as Swingers Club and event reviews, interviews with other sassy people and of course our global swinging adventures. We try to bring you a look into the Wanderlust Swingers podcast with Aussie hosts Kate and Darrell. the diverse lifestyle that the swinging and non-monogamous community has. We hope you enjoy. Now let's get into the episode. Welcome to Hot Takes with Wanderlust Swingers, the show with hot topics, hotter opinions and absolutely zero chill. This week we're diving into sexy parties versus swinger parties and our dirty vanilla is becoming a lifestyle epidemic. So buckle up. It's about to get spicy. Good morning. What? We're going to unpack the rise of dirty vanillas. Couples who love the lingerie, the lights, the energy, but don't play. So from empty playrooms at a Dutch takeover, which we've discussed recently, with zero play spaces and entire event organizations in the USA that are more MDMA than moaning. Is this evolution, dilution, or just a different lane of fun? We had some podcast reviews. Okay. So episode 205. Thank you, Kate, for a really informative and helpful episode on STIs and safer sex. There was no judgment or bias, just clear and realistic conversation about managing exposure to risk in the lifestyle. I appreciate it. Don dub aid. Okay, don dub aid. So lovey. I was like, oh, cheers. We also got a great message on Instagram from Trisha. So Trisha listened to our last episode about not getting laid and she said, I listened to this episode. Thank you. Mostly for me, I'm a single woman. I genuinely enjoy talking to everyone and have no idea if someone's floating with me. I find it really hard to switch from social to sexy. on it over the next few weeks as I've got some events coming up. Goal, get laid. Good luck to you, Trisha. Yes. I'm sure you will achieve your goal. So I thought I'd give a little shout out to Trisha. I really appreciated the DM you sent me on Instagram. Thanks for that, girl. And look, from Daryl and I, you know, just get out there and get laid. You know, we're rooting for you. Oh, my God. Only Australians are sighing at that pun. That is such a bad pun. And it's so, so singularly countryed as well. Why is that so funny, Daryl? It's not funny. Yeah, that's kind of the point. Why is it punny? It's punny because, well, it's not even, that still includes the funny. It's just not funny. Root is the Australian, isn't it? Ye olde Australian word for getting laid. Yeah, so there you go. I'm going to get a root. Got a root on the weekend? I just rooted her last night. It's so gross. It's only gross to you. Most of the rest of us just used it in normal conversation. I hated it. My old flatmate used to use root. Yes, he did. Oh, you're going to get a root this weekend? Rad. Let's talk about, what we've noticed, right? This shift of swinger parties becoming sexy parties. And we've spoken about a few events in the Netherlands that we've personally experienced that are more on this sexy party vibe. Now, I've obviously got a lot more exposure in the US and a lot more exposure just purely based on knowing about events in the space and everything else. From your perspective, what we've seen here personally experienced in parties in the Netherlands? Yeah, I think the definition here of swingers, per our definition, has changed something. Because initially we said that anyone who's around the lifestyle, they don't have to be playing, is somebody who's a swinger. And unless that's changed, these are swinger events. They're just non-play swinger events. So... That's what we're going to definitely debate. I actually want to debate about that because I have been known to say that and I think my position has changed on it. Okay. So there were three events, essentially, that we've been to recently that were more sexy events. than play events, and I think the wording there should be not swinger events, but play events versus non-play events. There's one that was a club takeover, and again, good energy, good crowd. Typically, these events are, you want to be seen at, or people want to be seen, so high-class lingerie, generally a younger crowd that is just more fluid in their everyday life, rather than just like us, who save our everyday Weekends and stuff. There's nobody in the playroom. Typically, everyone's dancing. There's a lot more drugs involved at these events. That's certainly one aspect. The Dutch takeover, club takeover was one of them. We also went to Amsterdam. There was 1,200 people, basically. And it was also marketed as a swingers event. And this also had a very similar thing. So there weren't any play spaces. No one in Amsterdam. I mean, yes, there was people fucking in the theatre, but technically they didn't get the licensing permission for a play. And then we went to one in Belgium as well. And it was basically a theme night with a DJ. At least though I can say the music has been good at all of these, which is probably par for the course as well when it comes to this style of event. Because given there's a lot more drugs being taken, it's typically a place where people want to party and dance a lot more than they want to get involved intimately. Yeah. And I think to your point, swinger parties, sexy parties, play parties, you know, they probably matter. The issue I take with it, is that all of these parties are using the word swinger to sell the tickets. What I did find, especially with some of these other parties, is that they were heavily advertising on swinger dating sites. And in those swinger dating sites and on the verbiage they were using, it was a swingers party. However, what I also found is that they were also advertising on TikTok and Instagram and other event platforms like Eventbrite or, you know, local event calendars. And they were advertised as a dance party. What I found out through talking to some people is that they just go, okay, no, that's the dance party. That's not a swingers party. So what we were seeing, same event, multiple versions of marketing, some to swingers saying, hey, guys, this is definitely a swingers party. And then some to potentially Dirty Vanillas saying, hey, it's a dance party with lingerie. Yeah. So it's almost like they're marketing to get the venue filled. Yes. Oh, capitalism. Events, these events now, they seem more about imagery and energy and the party culture. which is not necessarily a bad thing, but less about that connection and that play culture, which historically has been. I think it's less about play. Well, do you think, though? Because what I've found, though, is that these events as well, people generally tend to come with a built-in crowd, so they're not really mingling. So it's not about connection. They're just on the dance floor dancing, vibing. I'm fairly confident that the people who are on MDMA are vibing with a whole lot of fucking people. I mean, it's literally known as the love drug. Fair enough. There's a lot of people meeting other people. these events. They may not be forming long-term bonds, but you could say the same about a swinger, one-night events. I wonder if there's a book out there called One Night at a Swingers Club. Actually, I think at the Times sent somebody, there was a woman who went to One Night at a Swingers Club. There's an article on it. Probably. It's pretty old now, I think. So, Dirty Vanilla, is this changing swinger culture and is it changing it for better or worse? We're going to start debating it, what it is, what I've spoken about in the past and maybe my position has changed on it. So, the common term, dirty Vanilla often used negatively. And people would often say, hey, we never go to this particular party. The music's too loud and it's just a bunch of dirty vanillas anyway. Meaning, hey, other swingers, if you're wanting to play, don't go to this party. If you're wanting to dress sexy and be in lingerie, go to this party. Now, there are multiple, multiple events in the US that fall into this category. I'm not going to name names, but I know that there are kind of three or four major event productions around the US that this is very well well known for. They have great headlining DJs. The crowd is energetic. High drug taking often at these great dance parties and very, very sexy lingerie. Generally a sexy crowd. I'm curious as to whether you think the lingerie is any less sexy at a play event. I do actually. I would say that by and large the effort that I see for. So the effort. I'm talking about the lingerie itself. You keep saying. That's included. So I would see generally more honey bedette, more, more experience. more expensive lingerie, more body jewellery, more effort, everything, the sexy lingerie at these events, then I would see your average swingers party. Okay. Because what we know is I'm probably not going to put $1,200 worth of lingerie on my body. I'm probably going to put a $20 Amazon special because it's not going to be worth it for long. It's going to be off and it's probably going to get broken. So we're less inclined, I think, by and large swingers. I think that most people would go, no, I'm probably not going to spend. I feel like we're going to disagree a lot in this podcast. Well, that's fine. You know, your opinion is your opinion. It's wrong, but it's yours. What is a dirty vanilla? Have you heard the term before? No. No. Again, because I'm kind of in this bubble of the lifestyle in general and you're really not. So a dirty vanilla is a couple who is monogamous or exclusive. They like the sexual atmosphere. They like flirting. They like the aesthetic vibes in your spaces, but they have zero intention to swap or play with others. All valid. My problem is the expectations. People show up for swinging. We do. and we get a sexy social instead. That's my issue is with the expectation. So they're not wrong for being there. This has nothing to do with the dirty vanillas and more to do with the arseholes who are marketing it inappropriately. That's actually one of my points that I'm going to bring up later. Absolutely. Can't we bring that up now? I mean, we can. We'll mess up the whole flow of this. The issue that I have is that it's clarity. So when a majority of an event is full of these swayers or dirty vanillas, the energy shifts from being sexual and connected to performance formative sometimes and party vibes. Again, we love a good party. My issue is with the level of expectation that I have when I go to these events. So the big question, the debate, are Dirty Vanillas ruining Swingers events or is it evolution? It's got nothing to do with the Dirty Vanillas. It's got to do with the people marketing it. Yes. So, I mean, they're not doing it. not doing anything wrong. They're turning up to an event as it's been marketed to them. And the only issue is we're turning up to an event that's been marketed differently to us. It's multi-level marketing. This is not an uncommon practice. It's just a bullshit practice. It's a good way to fuck people over in one way or another. It's been done with property in Australia. It's been done with property in the US. It's where you sell to, you know, in Australia it was to Asian buyers. They were sold at a higher price than what the local Australians could buy at. This is not an uncommon thing. It's just people being dicks and making as much money out of an event as they can. I think you'll find that the guys who are dirty vanillas also don't want to be around people who are fucking in playrooms. So with that in mind, they're not doing anything wrong. They're turning up to an event that they've been sold as a sexy event with a good DJ and a good party. Correct. And if people are hitting on them. Yeah, it's fucked. They're hating that aspect of it. So I don't think anyone's taking over anything. just greedy and instead of actually running an event that caters to the people that want to be there they're trying to cater it to four or five different groups and it's not working this is not only dirty vanilla the same issue extends to fetish as well i mean if you look at that event one of the events we're talking about there it was advertised as a fetish event to some people as well yep we've got fetish swingers and dirty vanillas all at one event these are three different worlds yep and again doesn't mean they can't have a good time with each other and talk to each other. But if your expectation is to go to a fetish event and do fetish things, talk to fetish people, be in fetish wear, and then you see somebody that's completely opposite to that. People in white lingerie with sparkles all over their face. Yeah, this is the opposite end of the spectrum. It's basically Barbie versus 80s goth girl. Can they have a conversation with each other? Yes, but are they going to, you know, be doing the things that they want to do with each other? Not unless Barbie's willing to get, you know, bull gagged and beaten. You know, when I went to the the island last year, the island takeover, and there was a heavy contingent of fetish people from Germany there. Heavy contingent. And I remember at the white party, they were kind of turning up like, well, what do we do here? Because a lot of our gear, and when I'm saying fetish, I don't mean, you know, the average flogger or, you know, the average leather piece, leather harness, like I'm not talking about that. These people were in head to toe, some were in full gimp masks with the funnel on their faces, like actual fetish people. And so there was a moment where I was like, this is a really weird vibe, because you've got these There's people over on this corner that are very, very different to these other people. And maybe everyone's not getting the expectations or getting those desires met. Yeah. So I think in some cases also it may not be the marketing side of things. It may be that a particular fetish couple or group decides to go or dirty vanilla group decides to go and they bring others along with them. And then when people see that they're going from that lifestyle, they then come along as well. So I don't think it's always marketing. the marketeers that are driving this. But I think it is a lot of the time. I mean, the three events that you're pointing out here that we went to previously, these were all marketed very differently to very different groups. Well, okay. So taking that out of it then, what about a high percentage of dirty vanillas that go knowingly to a swingers takeover, a swingers club, a swingers resort, what have you, with no intention of mingling with people really, with no intention of like connecting, playing with people, high percentage. Does that become bothersome? You just spent four grand to go to a resort. Half the people there. Half the people there are dirty vanillas who, you know, they're going on there. They want to get a little bit frisky. They want to wear, you know, frisky laundry in public. No intention of really adding to the vibe there. Wait, wait. That sentence is not right. They add to the vibe. That's not the problem. They add to a specific kind of vibe. The problem is you can't take them back to a room and have sex with them. That's not a vibe. That's a very different choice. No, it's not changing for the worse. And I seem a little bit more on the yes, it is. I'm going to take the cons. So in other words, yes, it's changing. And I want you to take the pros as in like, these are all the positive things. So the cons, play spaces are less used. So swingers can feel frustrated because there's lacking on sexual energy in shared spaces, which we saw physically at the club. I think there was us and one other couple playing. Harder to identify who is actually available for play. So if you've got a grouping of 100 to 200 people, some are there for various reasons. It's more difficult to figure out who's available to play. I don't think people actively want to go out and hit on dirty vanillas if they don't want to be hit on as well. People in the swingers lifestyle have been talking about flipping vanillas for a very long time. That's a whole other... So this is... So maybe some people are like sport fucking out trying to flip these vanillas. Yeah. Maybe that's true, yeah. Sex can come a little bit more performative based, I believe. Content creator culture at a lot of these events, not here in the Netherlands, more in the US, there's a content creator culture coming to a lot of these. And it's a great opportunity for them to collaborate with other content creators, create content, get their money back, create social media content. Wait, are they having sex at these? Is that what you're talking about when it comes to content? Yes. Porn creators, sex workers. So they're having sex. With the other. So they're playing. Some people are with each other to create content. Yes. So they could be in a playroom having sex. No, because you can't film in playrooms. They're back in a private room together. There's a pool area. So there's dance spaces. They're more prevalent to get their phones out and film. So that could create privacy risks. I would say more drugs. Personally, that's what I've seen. So that can obviously blur a little bit with the consent culture. And it becomes more of a nightclub culture, not a swingers culture. So some swingers aren't going home satisfied either because they've spent money on something that it wasn't or they feel like they aren't getting laid. And yes, sure. Let's just be honest and upfront that some people are going to get laid. And if that's the case, they don't get laid. If there's a high percentage of people that don't want to fuck. That can be a con. Over to you for the pros. Okay. So I think some of the cons are pros as well. Okay. So you say play spaces are less used. What swingers event have you gone to where there's enough play space when it's a proper event? Oh, when they're heaving? Which one? Yeah, but the problem is, okay, I'll take my events as an example. They open at nine and they close at two generally. At 9 p.m. to say 10.30, barely anybody in the play space. Barely anybody. So you would look at those play spaces empty and go, oh, there's a lot of room here, kind of less utilized. 11.30 to 12.30, they're heaving sometimes, shoulder to shoulder, and there's no available play spaces, right? So then you would look at them and go, fuck's sake, Kate, put some more play spaces in. It's a hard one to play because they're empty at times and then full at times. Like, what are you going to do if I put more beds in? Thank you for aligning with my argument here that the play spaces are less used. You're absolutely right. At Swingers events, there's a a surge that happens at a particular time of the night, and there would be less of a surge if there's people there that are not there to play. And it would also spread it out because if those people are going to have sex, they'll have sex with each other alone in a playroom away from everyone else. Or in their room. Or in their room at a time that suits them the most. Yes, I agree. Okay, so the view here is for the nose, it's just an evolution. I don't think it is an evolution. I think this has always been there. It's just that there's a younger group now who is much more more comfortable with their own sexuality and much more comfortable walking around in lingerie. Okay, well, here's a question then. Why don't those people have their own events? Because people are advertising that this is their event. This is the problem. So it continually comes back to the same thing. The people are turning up to an event that they know as a dirty vanilla event, as the way it's been sold to them on TikTok, because you can't sell anything else on TikTok because you're not allowed to put up any sexual content. You say that, but Jesus. Oh, fuck, I know it's full of it. The thing is, I think, you know, we're looking at this as if they're taking over the space. It's not. It's just people desperately trying to make money in a crowded market. So, you know, is it younger? Yes, because the younger you look, the more people are comfortable with their sexuality because the idea of gay rights and trans rights are things that just didn't exist when I was a kid. I mean, fuck. No, I mean, this is, what are you talking about? This didn't exist when you were a kid. Your best friend's gay, and he spent most of his life in the closet because he didn't feel that it was appropriate for him to come out. Now, it's a lot different. People are a lot more comfortable. It's exposed. They're exposed to gay and transgender on TV, in music, in all sorts of things. This has just not been the case for a long time. So, they're also exposed to non-monogamous relationships, open relationships. They're exposed to polyamory. You know, all of these things are now common phrases in people. who are in their teens and 20s. Yep. And also the other thing is being more scantily dressed is something that, I mean, you have a dress that you used to wear when you were 22 that you felt it was so short that I remember somebody pulled on it once and you fucking shat yourself. Where was that? It was at a Christmas party for a company we worked at. Yeah. And you shat yourself. Right. You thought the world was ending. Okay, yeah. wear that now without any... There's no qualms to this. They'd wear that to church on Sunday probably. This is a standard length dress. This is not a concern. I mean, it's just a changed world. I don't think it's about the people taking over. I think there's a generational difference between where we sit and where they sit. And I embrace that. I fucking love where they sit and I wish my generation was that bad. I don't give a fuck. So looking back into our definition, of the lifestyle. We've said that the lifestyle is inclusive of anyone who wants to be there even if they're not involved. That's what we've said historically. I know you're about to cut me off and say I think I've changed on that but we've always welcomed new people and the main reason behind that is because those people who come in as dirty vanillas may find themselves attracted to the swinging lifestyle. You were about to say doctrinated, aren't you? We've now brought a whole lot of people across into a more open, more communicative environment. where they can also have sex with other people in a non-monogamous scenario. I think that's a great situation to have these people around people who are more involved in swinging. It's certainly driven by drugs and good music. It's a much more fun atmosphere. It's a much less driven to a singular goal atmosphere. There's people there to party and the definition of party varies for them from one end of the spectrum being that they don't even engage with each other or others all the way through to the other end where they might have sex in a playroom alone but not necessarily with anyone else so that's something that's really refreshing it also allows people to enter the lifestyle without any stigmatization so they can turn up at an event they can look around they can see whether it's okay they don't have to go to a club anymore i mean you don't have to go to a swingers club and stand there and feel like a fly on the wall getting looked at by everybody yeah i do want to talk about the taboo as being a pro for a second i think that the reason that these events in particular rise so well. And again, there are a number of these events in the US that don't actually even have playrooms on site. So they're advertised as swingers events on swingers dating sites, but they are a party lingerie kind of vibe. And I think one of the benefits to that, to be honest, and why they do so well, why they're marketed so heavily across all forms of social media and attended so well, especially by a younger group of people and with their faces out, it's because those people, to your earlier point, are not good. going to a swingers party. They're going to a dance party in lingerie. And that, for your younger generation, is entirely acceptable and palatable versus I'm going to go to a swingers party. Yes, agreed. So they can actually even put their outfits up on Instagram, on social media and be like, we're going to this dance party, even if it's technically advertised as a swingers party. But for them, it's like, no, we were going there to dance and have fun in lingerie because we are about body positivity and just general positivity. and everything like that. And so there's less of a taboo that these people face against it. I think that's positive. Yeah I mean I fail to see any significant negative out of a group of people being. The only negative I see honestly is a negativity of the false advertising that's driven by people that are looking to fill venues without taking any care for the people who are attending. Corporate greed my friend. It's not corporate. None of these events that we went to are corporately driven. The large one yes. There is a problem when it It becomes a high percentage and those expectations Those three large or four large event organizations in the US that I know are more about drugs and lingerie I know what those events are So if I wanted to go party at those I would go party at them I go to say somewhere where I think it's going to be about potentially to play and I'm looking for playing and talking to people and flirting with people and touching people When there is a high percentage of people that are specifically there That's the issue that I have. That's when I think it's difficult. Because again, if you've got 100 people in the room and 70% of them are not there for that, it makes it more difficult. And now you're running in a pool of 30%. Yeah. Which is kind of shitty. I mean, yeah. And who's driving that? The people who turn up? It's not like the people, all the people you've just described are not wanting to go to swingers events. They don't, there's very few people who go, I want to go to a swingers event and 100% not get involved with anything. Yeah. So why are they there? It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they don't want to play with people and they want to be around swingers. They're there because that's what they were told they were going to. Yeah. And again, I'm not suggesting or advocating for the fact that these people should fuck if they're going. That's not what I'm saying because I realise not everybody's going to want to fuck everybody. Looking at our track record, what percentage do you think we've gone to a club and actually had sex? No idea. Looking back over our entire 10 years? No idea. You don't have no gut feel to that at all? I don't know. 70% of the time? Yeah, so 30% of the time, we're also these people. True. Yes and no. I mean, we're there with the intent. And this is where, you know, I said about the vibe earlier. And you kind of came down on me in that. But what I mean by the vibe is that if you get somebody who's going to say a swingers event, and it is a swingers event, maybe it's a club takeover or something like that, or a resort or something like that, with zero intention of mingling with people, talking to other people, and I'm talking about, like, Like sitting at the breakfast, like if you're at a resort, sitting at a breakfast table with other people. I'm not sure. Resorts are not included in this. Lots of people go to swingers resorts. Sorry. Have you ever had an experience at a swingers resort where it was, it had been taken by dirty vanillas? No. So it's a, it's an extreme case that is not real. Okay. Let's talk about tips for success because otherwise we're just, This is just a ranting podcast where we're challenging each other. If you are a swinger specifically seeking play and you're at one of these potentially mixed events, I would say ask early what brings you here tonight, right? Don't assume shared definitions because again, what we've just discussed is that there is different definitions for swingers, sexy party, etc. Look for body language of availability, right? You're going to see some people there that, well, what I would say, look the swinger part. In other words, they're dressed in lingerie. They just look like they're a swinger and they're just not. So... If only there were like a bracelet system that people could use to identify themselves as... Which is what happens. I mean, again, if you want to market to three different groups, for the love of fuck you people out there that are marketing these events to multiple tiers of people, just have a bracelet. Yeah. If you wish people to come, if you wish swingers and dirty vinyls to come back, because keep in mind, it may be an event where there's a lot more swingers than there are dirty vanillas and the dirty vanillas feel that they're being attacked and poached on constantly right you're damaging your own brand by just not offering a simple identification meet and if you are a dirty vanilla going to these ones say early we're here for the vibe not here for the play we love meeting people so i would say you know try to still add to things like try to still cover conversation people but yes let them know in advance we are not swingers like we're here to just dance and have a good time. If you're a swinger and you're at an event and you see a person who's bouncing on the dance floor with their significant other, whatever that might be, fair chance they're less there for the play than they are for the dancing. This is relatively obvious stuff. The events we're talking about, how do we know that there weren't people there to play? How do we know? Ten years of swinger spotting? So we didn't ask anyone. I asked a few people, but yes, to your point, I did not go and ask 100% of the room. So how do I know that 50% weren't swingers? Exactly. So this is what I'm saying here. We're potentially seeing something that isn't even a reality because they may be soft swap or they may just be parallel play. Here in the Netherlands, I have specific personal interactions with the US stuff and I can guarantee you 90% of those people are not there to play with other people, period, full stop. But wouldn't they, I mean, those have been marketed that way as well. A Dirty Vanilla event. Ish. Or a swirl event. Yeah. Mark it as a swirl event. The problem here does not lie with the people who are coming. Yeah. I have an issue with that preface. So that's what I've got there. My general thoughts on this is it does require absolute clear communication from the club, the event host, the couples and the individuals. I mean, just getting normal communication from those three groups is not generally easy. Hey, we do have a listener question. This is from Tim. Not swap. We are exclusive, but we love the Swingers Club vibe. Can we go for the energy and not for the swapping? Yes. Tim, keep on coming, buddy. Keep bringing your partner along with you wherever you're going. If you don't feel welcome, tell them to fuck off and go somewhere where you are welcome. I disagree wholeheartedly with this because I enjoy the fact that you've got an open mind and are open to watching live porn. I mean, it's better than sitting at home in a dark room jerking off in front of a computer screen. That is actually what I was going to add to this conversation is a question back would be intention. Are you adding to the vibe? So what I'm talking about is you just mentioned go and be exhibitionist, go and be voyeurs. Like that for me. You didn't say exhibitionist. Okay, voyeurs then. If you're adding something to the club, that's a very different feeling for me than not. Like if you're just back sitting in a corner or not doing anything, not talking to people, refusing to talk to people, whatever you're doing there or snubbing people on the dance floor. To me, is you're not really adding to the atmosphere, but if you are being a voyeur, non-judgmentally walking to the playrooms, being a voyeur because exhibitionists fucking love that, that to me, you're adding to the atmosphere, you're adding to the vibe, and then yes. I think, again, Tim and anyone who's like Tim or his partner, go wherever you want. If you don't wish to have sex with people that you're there with, that's fine. This is your choice. It's your decision. I make that decision regularly when I don't want to have sex with someone, or I do want to have sex with someone. to have sex with someone. This is absolutely 100% your decision. Extremes are bad. Extremes are very bad. Because when you get to an extreme, you can't see the other side's opinions. If you have a 50% split, there's still plenty of people there for us to talk to and play with. And the other people that may not be wanting to play are dancing and enjoying things and keeping the vibe. That's what I want. Yeah, so 50% is fine. I mean, but why? The events you've gone to where it's been majority, vast majority, Dirty Vanillas, the dance party is hopping. Absolutely. And if I'd have gone there with the expectation of it being a dance party, happy days. And we're back to the marketing problem. Happy days. And we're back to the marketing problem. So everything, this is what I'm trying to draw here, is the difference between the actual problem being at the event or the marketing problem that's driving that. At the event, a 50-50 split is fine because you have 50% of the people who are dancing and partying, enjoying, keeping the vibe alive in the dance area. Then you've got 50% and who'll wander off and potentially play with each other or others. Once you get to 60%, 70%, 80%, the vibe dies in one of those locations. Yeah, absolutely. So this has, again, nothing to do with the people who are attending. This has to do with how it's marketed. It's even worse if you break it into three groups. If you've now got fetish, dirty, vanillas, and swingers at one event, you've now broken it down to a smaller pool. So you get a smaller split of people who actually want to do the thing. you want to do. So, at best case, even if it's a 33% split each, a third each, you're looking at a scenario where you've modified the group from that 50% down to potentially 30. You know, so 50 in 100 versus 30 in 100, it's a pretty significant change. This is why when you invite multiple stakeholders from different lifestyles to one event, with the idea that this is an event dedicated to them, that it becomes a problem. And back to Tim, I think that at the crux of it here, it's, say you did go, right, people, Dirty Vanillas are going to a swingers event. If they're going with an open enough mind, no issue whatsoever. Globally, what's the percentage of assholes that you've met in each country? I'd say it's something around 5% in every country, no matter which country we've been in. I would agree that ownership of some of these issues sits with the event producers. If they're marketing on a swingers website It doesn't say like playrooms and this, that and the other. If it's just like, it's dance party. No issues with that. My issue is when it is almost maliciously done where they are specifically saying to swingers, it's a swingers party. To Dirty Vanillas, it's a dance party. So excited by the fact that I've managed to bring you around to the train of thought that I started with, which is that it's the marketing problem. It's not the people who are coming to the events. Because if they marketed it appropriately as a Dirty Vanilla party, we wouldn't go unless we want to party unless we want to dance and enjoy the night without any intent of sex. You can dance. You can dance. Everybody look at my pants. So I think a lot of this comes back to how it's marketed. If we see something that's marketed on TikTok, on Insta and on a swingers site, we can assume that that is predominantly a dance style event. Yeah. A dirty vanilla event. Maybe the issue here is that we just haven't got the right assumptions built yet. Yeah. Because when we see a single guy now, we unfortunately regularly assume that they're going to be a pain in the ass to organize something with. Because that's our experience. So we have a framework that we've built that around. Whereas all the events we've seen advertised on STC or any of the platforms, as an example, we always consider that they're a swingers event. If they're advertising on a swingers site, immediately my assumption is it's a swingers event. Well, that assumption likely is now wrong. Maybe that's the problem. It's our problem. not the marketing problem is that we're so used to just saying if it's on a swingers event site it's going to be a swingers event but as fluidity becomes more prevalent more normalized more normalized yeah this dirty vanilla parties are going to start advertising on swingers dating sites because why would they not yes because it's it's a normal part of the spectrum that people are involved in so there you go we ended up coming around full circle and saying in fact it may not be the have a mindset that doesn't fit with the current reality because it's changed underneath us because we're now old you're old well i mean when it comes to the people we see at clubs that are in their early 20s we're both fucking old we're so old but this is the reality of this change and it's exciting change i really am excited by the fact that people are able to be just whoever they want yeah it is it is kind of disappointing that we didn't get to do that more often i think growing up now and having that ability to be that way instantly with less stigma and taboo pushed on you. Well, I mean, that's one aspect of it in terms of the cultural stigma, but you also have to take into account your family situation as well. And I still think you may have missed out on a whole lot of that just because of your programming. Just going back to these event producers. Another pro, a significant one, I actually think, is that a lot of these event producers are well-oiled machines. They're businesses that... I debate the well-oiled machine. Businesses that have business protocols, they know how to produce an event, right? They're event organisers. They're event organisers. And I think a pro to this concept of these events becoming more prevalent today than they were 10 years ago is that you've now got actual event producers producing high quality events in that space versus 15 years ago, the hobbyist that was like, oh, I can get my dick wet or I can make a gay a couple of bucks by running a swingers event so that's what i'm going to do and it's just not so great you know you've now got i think the possibility for this to kind of level up the lifestyle space yes i think it does help the entirety of the sex positive space this was actually the beginning of my entire argument for sure is that it helps the sex positive space having people there that are in any way okay with being more sexually exposed and lingerie is sexual I believe What do you guys think? Have you noticed a shift in your local club, in your local events, on social media, on dating sites? Are you seeing more parties being advertised on your local swingers dating sites that are perhaps swirl events or dirty vanilla events? Drop us a message email at wanderlustswingers.com Next episode we're going to share some stories from our Halloween weekend in London and also an MFN that we had recently So drop us a podcast review. If you value what we're doing, join us over on Patreon to get some behind the scenes and support the show. Daryl, you came to, I wouldn't say argue, but you came to get your position across. Do you think you did so? No. No. I mean, I think we started, I started at a point where I shifted the blame to potentially other people. And now I see that it's just a changing lifestyle and we need to look at how we're looking at things. We've looked at things through a singular lens for a very long time. And that lens is needing to change. Yeah. I think that's a very big part of this. Yep. Is that we're looking at things the way they used to be and they're not that way anymore. And that's a good thing. Yeah. Well, we did actually say after those events that had we gone with a different mindset. The events were awesome. We would have had a great time. Yeah. The events were great events. Except for one of them. Except for one of them. The other events were good events. And I would happily go back to those events again. And we did say that. With a different mindset. Yeah. So after the takeover at the club, We said people were dressed well. There was high energy. It was a great dance party. We'd go back 100%. And same thing with the SDC World Party. We said the same thing. Like generally pretty happening event. Lots of people. Lots of different dance. DJs were great in some areas. You know, all good things. So it's expectation on our behalf. You're probably right. So next time I'll have a look at the dating sites and see what events are being advertised. I might have to go in with a different lens. Yeah, I think so. I think that's a good start to make sure. we end up at a place we feel the most comfortable. Yeah. All right. Well, that has been today's episode. Debating whether or not dirty vanillas and sexy parties versus swinger parties is actually an issue. I think we've covered a lot of ground and what we're here to say is no. The answer is no. It's not an issue. I'm not sure that you agree with that at this point, but yeah, certainly I don't think it's a problem. All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening. Hope you have a great day and we'll catch you on the next one. Ciao.