Can You Be a Christian and a Swinger? A Former Pastor Speaks Out

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast is intended for adult audiences. Over the age of 18, it contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to us, and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice. Welcome to the Swing Nation podcast, a podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle. Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe. Interview the experts, learn and grow together. Join the nation. So Lacey, people are asking, how do they get to go to a party or an event with us? They check out swingersociety.net, you create a profile, you sign up for an event, and you come hang out with us. Super easy. That's right. If you want to party with us and the other faces and names that you know from social media and TikTok, head on over to swingersociety.net. Can't wait to see you there. Hey there, pineapple people. And welcome to the swing nation podcast. We are your hosts, Northern guy and Southern girl. And today we have a special episode. Yeah, we're going to talk about a subject. We've actually been avoiding for four years. If we're being honest, we've been avoiding this subject for four years. We get asked about it all of the time. Some of our guests try to go down this path and we steer them away. And it's almost, Most forbidden thing to talk about in the last time. Religion and politics. Yes. Are the two things you don't talk about. And we're going to break that rule. But we're going to break it with a very open mind and a very special guest. So I'm going to introduce you to Cade. And that is his fake name. He's under disguise here with us. Now you're going to have people look at me. Don't put that in there. And Cade is a former pastor. Yeah. And so and him and his wife are now members of the community. And so he's going to talk to us about religion and the lifestyle. Hello. Yes. Hi. I didn't I didn't know if I could speak yet. I didn't know this. This is this is it. This is it. You're here, man. The listeners can't hear it. They can't they can't see it. But you know, you had me in a holding tank. And it's it's really nice in there, actually. but thank you for letting me out i'm glad to be here yeah uh hi hi nation yes okay the way we kind of like to do it here is the same way you start any kind of lifestyle conversation is kind of the like tell us about yourself like how did you get here give us a little bit about your background now i know you could probably go the full hour on that but i'll give you like maybe you know five like five ten minutes on that so when i get when you said former pastor and now you're that I'm going to talk for a straight hour. It's time for lunch. That's a real thing, right? Pastors like to talk. That's true. So yeah, I mean, I grew up in the church, grew up super Southern Baptist and decided in high school that I was going to be a pastor and go that whole route and met my wife at that church, met her in that youth group in high school. That's when we got together and we went to a Christian college. We got married in college. because if you're a good little Christian boy and girl, that's what you do. And looking back, it's definitely the only thing that I have zero regrets about of all of my years in that faith world. She's definitely the best thing that's ever happened to me. So I did one thing right. And then I left that, got a degree in Christian studies, so studied Christians for four years. if you want to be one. And I, uh, just kidding. I was really, I was really good at it. And then, uh, went to seminary and shortly after that became a pastor and I was a pastor for 17 years. And, uh, yeah, about two years ago, we transitioned out of that. And there was a time of, for me, probably a couple of years leading up to the end of me being a pastor. There was some deconstruction happening. And there's some relationships that really helped that. For example, I have a twin brother who's a drag queen and super gay. Like not like a little gay, like very, very gay. When he calls you on the phone, you hang up. You don't even know how it happened, but you have glitter on you. I love that. He's very gay. And, you know, he married his husband and they, you know, I'm looking at that. and going, well, this is good, you know, and if I were going to use the Bible's definition of love, which is patience and kindness, and it's not arrogant, it's not rude, like all of those things, I'm like, that's, yeah, that's them, that's how they love each other, that seems good, that seems like a good thing, and, you know, I'm going back to my church and my leaders, and they're like, no, it's not, I was like, this isn't going to work, and so I start, I don't know, there's a lot of things that I started to deconstruct and things that I'd never, I thought about or questioned. Yeah, then a couple of years ago, I was like, I don't know if I'm going to continue doing this. And then before I could make a decision, the church was like, we've decided you're not going to do it anymore. And they got rid of me. And so it's a tale as old as time. Anyone who's been in church work has heard it. Anyone who's been hurt by a church has heard it. I was a threat to some of their money and their because I believed differently about a lot of things. I was critical of a lot of things that were going on. We got run out of town on a rail. We were publicly shunned and shamed. Literally, they told people, don't talk to us, to turn their backs on us if they see us in public. People still do that to this day. Part of that shunning and shaming was about our private Sex Life. They read my text messages between me and my wife. And then, and of course, we talked about, you know, sex. And then they read those to the church publicly. They read our messages. Wow. And these were church phones. That's how they were able to do that? Yep. Yep. Yeah. Legally, they could have printed them on a billboard if they wanted to. Wow. I would have thought, you know, just ethically and just as being decent people. They wouldn't have done that, but they did. And so it's kind of a great ending or a great turning point, really a summary of growing up in the purity culture movement that we both grew up in, where we've been shamed our whole lives for having sexual desire or for acknowledging that part of our life. And so for my time at the church and for my time in faith, I don't consider it myself a person of faith anymore. For that to end and that be involved in it, it's kind of poetic. And so about a year after that, uh, I talked to my wife and I said, what are we doing? Like, okay, we're healing up. We've been going to therapy. Um, I don't want to unalive myself anymore. So that's progress. Let's, we've lost our community. We've lost everything. Um, you're still horny, right? Me too. Okay. So, So what are we waiting on? Why don't we check out this community? Why don't we see what it has to offer? And that was in January of this year. And she said, yeah, I need to think about it. Like I'm an internal processor. I need all the podcasts. I need all the books. I need all that. And so she found Swing Nation, found you guys. And about a, I don't know, two or three weeks later, she talked about your podcast constantly. And I remember listening to it the first time and I was like, God, Lacey sounds great. And I was like, dude, what's the guy's name? Very typical. That's most people's response. Yeah. But honestly, Brian, you do a great job. And so the, so the, yeah. And so she came to me and said, do you know anything about, you know, the swinger clubs and all these other things? I said, not really. And she said, well, I've been listening to this podcast. I want to give it a shot. And I think, Lacey, it's probably you who said it because it was wise. You said something like, you won't know how you feel until you try it. It was something like that. And so she just said, okay, we just have to go. We just have to go and try it. And that was in February. And I think every week since it's October, we have done at least one thing. lifestyle related, whether it's a house party or going to, you know, a lifestyle club or I don't know, or going on a date with another couple. So we've, I mean, it's been great. You jumped right in, huh? Oh my God. Did we, did we ever, we went full force in and Dan, I don't know if you want to leave this in or not. Um, is one of my, like, I think it's a very funny, uh, story of how we got started. So, um, my wife listened all these podcasts. And again, she's getting everything in her head. And once it clicks for her, like it's done. Like I did. She's like, I did all the research. I've done all the processing. It's done. So we're headed to, went to Secrets for the first time. And we're headed to the pool party on Saturday. And we don't, I mean, we know what we've read. We know what we've heard. We know what you guys have said about it. And I was like, well, based on what they said, I think there's always a merch table. set up somewhere. Uh, there's an Italian restaurant. So we went and, um, on the way there, she said, I, I don't know if I want to do anything today. And she said, in fact, I don't even know if I'm going to fuck you today. I was like, all right. Okay. But you are though. Right. Funny joke. Right. And she goes, no, I just don't know. Like, I don't know how I'm going to feel. Yeah. And she said, but I reserved the right to change my mind. Like I, you know, if I'm going to change my mind, I'm feeling comfortable, whatever. And I was like, I'm, we're moving at your pace, right? You move the pace of the slowest person. Absolutely. And so we get there, we're laying out by the pool. We've been there a while. And both couples on either side of us are completely naked. And so I go, Hey, you know, pull your tits out, you know, like break the seal, you know? And she got, she looks around and she just pops one of them out. Just one. Which is fine. It was my favorite one. I was like, oh, it's good to see you, John. And so she pops it out. And so at the end of our time there, we did end up in the playroom. And so she's like, can I go down on you? And I was like, I don't want to be rude. And so I'm just like, this is great. I never even thought we'd get here. And then, again, I don't know what you want to leave in or leave out. We leave all the things. We don't edit any of this. This is all great. This is all, yeah. Very funny. She just goes, she's sucking my dick, and then she just goes, God, I wish someone would fuck me right now. And I was like, oh, uh. I'm like, I'm like looking around. You know what I mean? Excuse me, sir. Sir. That's exactly what happened. That's exactly what happened. This couple was walking by, and I go, and they stopped to look at her, because she's stunning. And I was like, oh, uh. And he was like, he didn't really speak English. And he was like, uh, uh, and I was like, uh, and I'm just pointing. We're just cavemen at that point. And so he comes in, his, his wife went and grabbed him a condom. And my wife never turned around, has no idea what he looks like to this day. Uh, I always tell her it was you, Dan. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Never believed this. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. And that kicked That kicked it all off. It's been non-stop ever since. Which, as you know, is dynamic. It's not been a smooth sail. It's a rollercoaster. Up, down, up. Absolute rollercoaster. Because you don't know what's going to upset you until you're in that moment. Sometimes things upset me and then the next time they don't or vice versa, you just never know. That's awesome. It's nice to hear that whole progression. And it's, you know, that when you hear like, oh, we listen to your podcast. Those are always the stories that I think impact us the most. Because as you know, when you put out stuff on a podcast, you really don't feel the impact, right? You're just kind of talking into space. Yeah, when you see like downloads and numbers and those, you know, you're like, okay, that's good. But you don't, when you go to, when we go to events and we meet people and they come up to us, they have these type of conversations. That's when you're really like, man, the things that we set out to do, we're actually doing and impacting the people in the way that we hoped that this would. So it's definitely, that's a good feedback loop for us. But I want to get a little bit back to your story because I think it's a pretty dramatic one. I think it's like the perfect Netflix documentary almost. So when you said, you know, they started getting suspicious of you. And for some reason, they read your text. And is it because of the questions you were asking the church? And you were saying, hey, but what about this? What made them open up those text messages and read them? Or are they just doing that all the time? No. So it's a long, convoluted story. But basically, someone on our staff had said something about me, which started a rumor, which wasn't true. And my suspicion, looking back on all of it, is that there were other reasons they didn't want me there. And this was the reason they needed. And so they treated the rumor as if it was true. To this day, they still, as far as I know, they still believe that those things happen. And so in their investigation, they were like, we're going to go through here. And I gave it to him. I was like, yeah, I have nothing to hide. I don't care. Right. Look at it. And, um, yeah, so they, they looked at those messages and, uh, you know, we had, we had talked about, I would say lifestyle adjacent things, you know, and, um, even like, uh, try to interact with people online about it, but that was it. And that was, uh, yeah, they, they made that public because as you guys know, I mean, you've, you've been through your own Revealing Things Happening. It's salacious. Oh, yeah. Those type of stories, when they catch fire, will go through a community faster than any story. I could only imagine being a pastor. We could donate a million dollars to charity. Nobody would know about that. But once, like you said, something that has the drama like that in it will go through a community. You go to one charity event with your dick out. That's what they talk about. Right. Yeah. Everybody knows. It's like, what the hell? You give a million dollars, they don't care. You hang a little brain. What are we doing? Exactly. Okay, so this happens. Yeah, go ahead. Well, my next question was, then they pull you into church and publicly read the message and shame you? Kind of. They didn't pull me in. They wouldn't let me be there. When they fired me, they told me they were going to have these meetings. And I asked to be there. And part of it, too, was not only did I, at the time, did I want to take all of the blame away from them. You know, honestly, that was my goal was to try to, because I still believed in what they were doing. You say away from them, you mean like the church leaders? You want to make it very clear that this is about me. Yeah, I'm fired anyway. So let me tell them that this is about me. Like, I'm a piece of shit. Let me be the piece of shit. And they wouldn't, they wouldn't let me. I mean, I think it's obvious why, right? Because they wouldn't have been able to say all the things they said or do all the things they did if I was standing there. And they dragged my wife through the dirt. And she wasn't employed by the church. She was just my wife. She didn't do anything. And so, no, I wasn't there. But yeah, they had multiple meetings and they read our messages and told people to shun us that for us to repent, We need to suffer and feel how bad our decisions are. It was wild. Again, I grew up in church and I had been a professional Christian for 17 years. I'd never seen anything like it. Even as I talked to other pastor friends or former pastor friends, their current pastors, former friends, when I would tell them what happened, they couldn't believe it. Obviously, I don't have the experience you have. I didn't go to school for this and all this, but I went to Bible camp when I was a kid and all that kind of stuff, and I didn't know shunning was still a thing that churches did. I thought if somebody was a sinner that you were supposed to bring them into the fold, and you're kind of supposed to show them the light, and that's kind of the idea, not to cast them out. Yeah, but kind of related to our topic today, that the church's hyper-focus on sexuality and sexual expression, part of what they've done is they've created a boogeyman out of it. And so they have to demonize that shit, like, all the time. Like, the minute it raises its head, we're not talking about forgiveness anymore. We're not talking about Grace or Mercy like we got to get that shit out of here and when you look at like major scandals for mega churches or you know big evangelical churches whatever they're sex scandals those are the ones everyone talks about so they're looking at their multi-million dollar campaigns they're running and all these things and they're going if he goes down we all relate and it's a sex scandal we all go down so let's just tell everybody that you know He's a wolf in sheep's clothing. And, you know, he was the sex fiend or whatever. And, um, yeah. And, uh, a lot of, a lot of people, a lot of people bought that message. So we were really alone for a long time. And what's been so incredible about the swinging community is immediately we found a place that this is how the church should be. Yeah. And what I mean is, uh, I don't I've never felt judged in that in that context and I've met people so fucking different than us you know people that I don't think we agree on anything you know if I were to say the sky is blue they would say well there is no sky with the earth is flat and it's all a hologram or whatever yeah we've met people like that and even them I don't feel judged by I don't feel like that's not what it's about yeah it's a vulnerable Like, that's what I always say, is that when we walk in there, and that's what church is supposed to be, right? It's supposed to be we're all fucked up and we all need help. But the minute someone finds out how you're fucked up, now they're going to fucking beat the shit out of you because it makes them feel better about how they're fucked up. But in the swing community, we all walk in with the same vulnerability and no one's looking to make themselves feel better. I think if someone like that exists, you're not going to last very long in that community. everyone's coming into that vulnerability saying, hey, we're going to open up, we're going to walk through this thing that there aren't really very many rules for us. We're all figuring it out. It all looks different for everybody. And we're just going to figure it out together. There's an immediate kinship with people that you meet in the lifestyle because I love this thing. And I know you love this thing. And I want to make it work for you because I want to make it work for me. and I want to make it work for whoever is going to walk through the door next because they could be really hot and I might want to fuck them. So yeah, it's been an incredible experience. I think it is a mix of, I think it is a community and we all realize we're in this together and that we're all different from society in the same way that we're open, willing to open it up. So I think there's a lot of that. And I also think that just that the fact that sex is somewhat on the table at all times, right? Like when you go to an event, 99% of the people there you're probably never going to fuck. Maybe 90% of them you probably wouldn't even consider fucking. But just because it could maybe might happen. This guy? Well, I'm open. I always joke that I'm open to 80%. Usually 80% of the women at a party I would probably fuck. And that's probably pretty accurate. You say you're open to people over 80? Is that what you said? Yes. Everyone there over 80. I will watch in the corner with popcorn. Like, we tried church, and it was kind of fucked up. And, you know, we go to work, and it's kind of fucked up there. And, you know, whatever. But here, we can come and, like, completely be who we are and let our hair down and be vulnerable. And it's not fucked up. So, it's just, I don't know. It's hard to explain that community to people who've never been in it. And it's so funny now, looking back on it with my wife. about the nerves that we felt and the fear that we felt, you know, looking back on it now going, we were about to walk into the sweetest group of people we've ever known. And we had no idea. We thought we were going to walk into a fucking 1970s key party. Yeah. You know, and like, you know, and, and that's not what it is at all. It's a genuine connection and it's, it's really special. It's a really special thing. So we're in it. We're in it to win it. All right. I think now's the perfect time to take a little break and hear from the partners and sponsors of the Swing Nation podcast. But then when we get back, I do want to talk a little more religion in general and maybe even like religious views on non-monogamy. You know, because we get all this criticism online about how we're going to hell and stuff. And then I go back and I look at the Bible and I try to find references on where they say we're going to hell. And I'm confused by all of that. And so I kind of wanted your take on some of that here on the backside. Yeah, I'll tell you if you're going to hell or not. Perfect. All right. Stick around. Lacey, one thing I don't leave home without when going to a swinger event is my ED medication. That is correct. Performance anxiety is 100% a real thing. with 100 people in there is way different than having sex at home in your bedroom. It is. So I like to have what we call little insurance policy and have some of that ED medication in my pocket. Shameless Care is who I use for that. And they actually just came out with a new product called the Shameless Duo. Yeah. Which is a combination medicine that has Viagra and Cialis in it. So that one, you can be ready whenever. But also it's got that dose that you can take when you're as you're getting ready to go to the playroom and you need that to kick in. Yeah. So I love it. I mean, I used it at Hedo for the first time and that combination. You've kind of pretty much switched to that, haven't you? That's basically what I use all the time now. Yeah. So if you're looking for ED medication, if you're new to the lifestyle and you're going to an event, you might want to get some and have it just handy in case you need it kind of thing. Yeah. And the really cool thing about Shameless Care is they don't set you up on a reoccurring plan. So you're not going to get all of this ED medication that you have in your nightstand built up when it's time. that you need more. You'll get an email from them and they'll ask you, hey, are you ready for another round? And you can respond back. Yes, please refill it or no, I'm good right now. Thank you. So it's really cool because you don't end up with all these extra pills and spend a bunch of money that you're not, you know, you don't need to spend. Yeah. And my favorite part is you don't actually have to go into an office and talk to your family doctor or a military doctor. You can do it all right online from the privacy of your home. You just go to the website. you fill out some forms the doctor reviews it approves you disapproves you and you move on from there so if you would like to get some medication you can go to the swing nation dot info click on the little recommended apps and products scroll down to the shameless care icon click on that and that's going to take you over there there's some discount codes there for you so you can get a discount off your first order but I highly recommend if you're going to some events or parties go get you some lifestyle insurance All right, guys, check it out. Dan, so when we're doing the podcast, a lot of times we'll tell the listeners we are filming our content for OnlyFans, right? Mm-hmm. So how do they find that content if they want to see, like, the videos that go along with the stories? Yeah, so that's a great question. So you are correct. We do film for OnlyFans. You know, when we're going to clubs and events, we talk about sometimes, oh, we did OnlyFans with so-and-so. So if they're interested in that, they can go to theswingnation.info, and they'll see right there on the front page a link to your OnlyFans. We are running promos. We are. And it could be anywhere from 50% to 80% off right now. Yeah. So I think right now it's 80% off. Wow. So you'd have to go grab that right away. But if you like watching orgies, if you like watching threesomes, if they want to see you take DBP, they want to see, how big of a dirty slut you actually are. They can see all that right on your OnlyFans page. We kind of call it, it's like another tier of education. No, I was about to say that because I think like if you go to some of these major porn sites and you type in like swinging, you're going to find some things and it's usually not very good. Let's be real. We actually will get and we try to get as many orgies on camera as we can because a lot of people that are joining the lifestyle, see us do a full swap with a couple or they want to see us engage in an orgy and these are the same people that we will have orgies with at the swing club with obviously without the cameras we just kind of recreate it um you know at opportunities that we can film so if you're thinking about joining the lifestyle and you're like man i need to know i need to see like how they're navigating this our only fans can be kind of educational if you ask me i agree so go over to the swing nation dot info click that blue and white button and go sign up today. Yeah. Check it out. We appreciate you guys. Lacey, if you're going to be a swinger. Yeah. You need to be a responsible swinger. I agree. And part of being a responsible swinger is getting tested on a regular basis. Yeah. Now something I didn't know is not all STI STD testing is the same. That is correct. Not every family doctor fully understands how you should be getting tested. That is correct. What one doctor thinks is a full panel. another doctor may have a completely different version of that. And being somebody in the lifestyle and engaging with multiple partners, what you should be getting tested for is probably different than what they're thinking in their head. Yeah, because they don't know your lifestyle. Or even if they do know your lifestyle, there's a like, for instance, there is a new one called Imgen. And we just recently met a doctor at a lifestyle party and said, that she had never even heard about it and so she was awesome that we had educated her on that so a lot of these doctors don't they don't know it all right so if you are going to participate in the lifestyle you probably need to get tested from people that are meant to do this yes um so we use i know my status it's the same people behind talent testing who are the it's a company that tests all the porn stars so they're used to testing people that um engage with multiple partners They know all the latest on what STIs are, you know, coming up and spreading and they track all the stats. I mean, they know how to test people for STIs. They're the experts. They are. And if someone that you engage with, you know, if they have used I Know My Status, they can actually give you a QR code and you can scan it and you can see their results right on your phone so you can confirm everything that they're telling you. Yeah, 100 percent. So please, if you're getting tested, get tested the right way. We recommend using I Know My Status. You can go to theswingnation.info, recommended apps and products, scroll down to the I Know My Status icon and you can get a discount off your first test. But please, if you're being, if you're swinging, if you're engaging with people in the community, please be safe about it. Go get tested. Yeah, because we want you to fuck like a porn star. For sure. All right, guys, welcome back. Thank you for listening to our sponsors. We love our sponsors. We do. All right. I can't wait to buy all of their products. Yes. Thank you. Sling it for you. Yeah. Sling it bikini should be to the top of your list of the things you buy. I've already ordered it. Oh, I just got the notification. It ships that fast. What a great company. Yes. Thank you. We appreciate that. You're a huge help. All right. So I want to talk a little bit general about religion. And I also want to make it very clear that, like, We're not trying to take a side here. You might be a little more jaded. No. I don't think there's anything wrong with faith. I want to be clear. I think it serves a great purpose. I think the problem is dogma, not faith. Dogma, faith says, this is what I believe. This is what I choose to put my trust in. That's great. And you can find a community of people who do the same thing, and you can find acceptance there. You can find purpose there. That's fantastic. It's dogma. It's the belief that what I believe has to be what you believe. And if you don't believe it, then we got a problem. And that dogma in any realm doesn't work. When you meet dogmatic people in the political realm, it doesn't work. When you meet dogmatic people in the religious realm, it doesn't work. Like, so I don't, yeah, I have no problem with people figuring out their own personal faith journey. Do it. If faith is your thing, pray. If that helps you with purpose and meaning, we run into the problem when we start holding on to dogmas and we start saying, this is universally true for all people, what I believe you have to believe, or we're not going to be okay. Yeah, that's kind of like why we fight all the wars we fight. Anyway, so I have no problem with faith at all. I think it's great if that's something that's important to somebody. Okay, so I guess that's a good first question then, because that's a question we get asked all the time. You know, we have people that reach out to us in emails and will text us on social media, and they'll say all these things, and they'll say, you know, hey, me and my wife are really interested in this lifestyle. You know, we listen to your podcast, you know, but we are people of faith, and they're basically almost like asking us, I think, for permission to explore this lifestyle because they are, you know, they identify as Christian. And so I don't have, you know, and this is kind of why I wanted you on this podcast is because I don't have the background. I think, you know, people ask me that question. I'm like, I don't know. We can bring him on and he can give everybody permission to be in the lifestyle. I don't know if he's going to even say it. That's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah. Everyone fucking just do it. What are you doing? Yeah. But, but I do think burning, I guess there is a question is if you are a person actively that's actively involved in the Christian faith, do you think that non-monogical is in stark contrast to that and that the two can't co-exist. Can I answer that in two parts? Sure. And we can put an ad break in between both. Perfect. So make sure to pick up your swinging thongs. I don't know. I didn't see the advertisements. I couldn't hear them. They're not live. I don't know. I'm going to tell everybody. They're not live. I didn't hear them. But I'm sure they're great. their own bodies is because it's going to sound weird this is a clippable moment right here is because jerry falwell senior wanted to keep his christian school segregated in the 70s wow let me explain so in the 1970s the evangelical church you was was like the biggest the biggest voice was jerry falwell senior in the evangelical church you You remember him? Do you guys remember? I've heard of him, yeah. Whatever you believe, if you're a Christian or not, we can all agree, he's a piece of shit. He started Liberty University. He came out on 9-11 and was like, it's the gays. It's God's judgment against us because of the gays. Yeah, that guy. That guy sucked. But there's a great documentary on Hulu about his son who took over the college, and he was a cuckold, and they they had a pool boy fuck his wife and like get in business with them and it was like a huge scandal because like a christian university or whatever it was fantastic yeah i'm gonna look that up okay it's really really good yeah so um anyway he wanted to keep his christian schools segregated and the irs said well then you can't be because now you're violating the civil rights act you can you can't be tax exempt and so he started to go well okay Then we won't say that we want segregation. Instead, we'll say that you're against Christian values. And so they started to lose the popularity of the idea of segregation. And so they pivoted because he wanted political power. And that's when he started the religious right. I'm sure you guys have heard the religious right. The reason every president since Reagan has had some sort of faith committee is Jerry Falwell. He started it in the religious right. And so they had to find things to be upset about. They had to find things that they're going to fight against. So it's the first time Christians cared about abortion. That's the first time. Like, it was like 1979 when he, like, established the religious right. Before that, you didn't talk about abortion in church. No one talked about it. It's a personal matter, whatever. But they picked abortion. They picked gay people. And they picked... And because of that, they picked like sexual morality became their big, their big thing. And so the church became sex obsessed. And I grew up, I was born in the 80s. So, you know, I was baptized, well, 89, 90, something like that. So grew up in the 80s and the 90s in the church. And there was something that came out of that movement called the purity, purity movement, purity culture. And I'm sure that There are people listening right now. There's some people who are, uh, all the hair just stood up on the back of their neck. Um, someone probably vomited. Um, it's, it was a traumatic, traumatic thing. Do you guys have any familiar? Did you go to church when you were a little kid? Yeah. I mean, I grew up, I grew up in a Southern Baptist church as well. So I, yeah, all of this, all of the things. Purity pledges and things like that. Right. And I can, I can remember, you know, purity rings. I had a purity ring. Yeah. My, my parents gave me one, which is just such a fucking, I have kids I'll never give them jewelry related to their genitals like that's not going to be it's just not going to be our thing you know like no judgment on your house I guess but um but actually no a lot of judgment on your house don't do that it's weird yeah but yeah I mean we had true love weights um we had uh we had all these purity pledges we took and and all these things and basically what ended up happening was the church was saying don't and so what that meant was no one was teaching us how to do it no one was teaching us like all we were told is like our sexual urges are bad they're bad masturbating is bad um i mean it didn't stop me i was a teenage boy so i was just like uh right so but then you still do it and then you feel some kind of self-shame about it right like horrible yeah horrible shame horrible shame and there's there's this teaching especially within the purity culture movement it still happens in churches today is that when you are sexually active with someone else, you're giving a part of yourself away that you will not get back. And so the way they would teach that is they would pull a scripture out and say that when Jesus talks about marriage, he says the two will become one flesh. And so it's like, see, see. So he's talking about consummating your marriage. So when you have sex, you become one. And when you separate, when you mix these two things together, If you try to separate them, it's not going to be a clean break. Anytime you have any type of sexual interaction, you're giving a part of yourself away. When one day you're with your spouse, you won't be able to give them 100% of yourself. All your flesh went to all these other women. Obviously, that's scientific and proven. We were taught to be ashamed of ourselves and taught to be ashamed of that part of us. And that started in 1979 with the religious right. That started because Jerry Falwell couldn't say, I want segregation anymore. But he wanted political power, and he thought Christians should have it. And so he found new things to be upset about. And so the moral majority became a thing. The focus on our sexuality became a huge thing. Before my generation, before those born in the 80s, if you grew up in church, you grew up in a youth group, no one talked about jerking off. Your youth pastor wasn't coming up to you going, how short are your shorts? I mean, they were. I mean, obviously, pastors fuck people that shouldn't fuck all the time. But that was our youth group experience, was my wife getting yelled at because her shorts were too short. other Sunday, the youth pastor just being like, hey, every time you jerk off, an angel loses its wings. And I'm like, how is that fair? Poor angels. When you pull your pud, they pull a wing off. And I'm like, oh, my God. And that was, yeah. So the fact that these listeners, sorry to circle back, the fact that these listeners are consenting, loving, people in a stable relationship, the fact that they're going, I wonder if it's okay if I do something with my own body, that's a direct result of the evangelical movement at the end of the 70s led by Jerry Falwell Sr. and that there's no evangelical church today that was not shaped and formed by that movement. None. And it's sad. It's nobody's fucking business And the thing that I always say to people Because when you talk to people And when I've talked to other Christians Who have been opposed To the swinging lifestyle And things like that They'll do the logical fallacy argument Of slippery slope, right? They'll go, okay So if you let gay people get married Then what's next? Are they going to marry their dog? Or whatever Are they going to start marrying kids? And I go, okay Okay, that's super dumb, but I do think a wedding for a dog would be really cute. But I said, no, it's consent. Don't be dumb. The line is consent. And as long as there's consent, a dog can't consent, unless you're Dr. Doolittle or whatever. A child can't consent. And he's like, well, what about if you want multiple people to get married? And I was like, if they're consenting adults, what the fuck do you care? So the line is consent, but what the church has done with this, again, the purity movement and all that, is they push the line back. It's not consent. It's what we say is appropriate. I mean, to this day, getting into the lifestyle, my wife is, I mean, it's been 30 years since she was in this youth group, and yet, when we first started in this lifestyle, she was afraid to show her body. body off. And I was like, so hang on, let me get this straight. You'll fuck everybody here, but you don't want to walk in like your ass hanging out. Like, what's that about? And it's, that's what it is. It's the, it's the church. It's all of that, like still in there. And so, yeah, it's sad. And so I, there's some people out there that maybe are struggling, like they're, they're Christians. They're like, I don't know if I should be in. I don't know if I should be out. I just want to say to you right now, we can talk about the Bible in a second. It is not a biblical issue. This is a cultural issue. Right. This is an evangelical cultural issue. Period. Yeah. There were a group of men, straight white men, who said, this is good and this is bad. And for the last fucking 40 plus years, we've all gone, okay, yeah, okay, this is good and this is bad. It's bullshit. Yeah. It's bullshit. Well, I think, you know, you don't have to study the Bible or study religion to see that. I can just look at religion in my lifetime and see where the line keeps shifting. Like you said, with the LGBT thing, when I was a kid, that was a hard no-go if you were any type of Christian faith that you were against gay marriage and that kind of thing. And to my knowledge, the church has really changed its opinion of that and has openly started to accept that community. Some have. Yeah, some have. Not many. Not in the evangelical tradition, unfortunately. But yeah, I mean, it does change. It does change. So honestly, this whole issue is, from my viewpoint, it truly is cultural. But if people want to talk about the Bible and have a better understanding of that, we can do that. Do we want to throw it at a commercial? No. We only do one commercial. But I am curious what you have to say about the Bible. because when I look at the Bible, especially when you look at the Old Testament, there's non-monogamy everywhere. There's concubines. There's people with multiple wives. There's, you know, it seems like these men were having sex with everybody. Yeah, sounds pretty great. Unless you were a female, then it sounds awful because some of them were like literally sex slaves. Lacey, you would hate it. I'm alive in the right time. But it would be great. No, it's terrible. But no, so, where to start with the good book? When people have purchased the Bible, the first thing you need to remember is that you're reading somebody else's mail. Like, it was not written to you. It was written to somebody else. You're not just reading someone else's mail. You're reading somebody else's mail from a completely different culture and time than you. And so, and when you do that, Like we do with everything. No matter what you're reading or consuming or interacting with, you're bringing your own story to that thing. And you're putting yourself there. I mean, that's what makes movies so great, right? Is that you watch that movie and it's relatable to you. Right. It strikes a chord. Like it reminds you, oh, that makes me think of my dad or my kids or yeah. Yeah. Like Dan, like probably like the way you feel when you watch Forrest Gump. Right. That's my life. You know what I mean? And you're like, that's me and I'm going to run. And I don't know why I'm being so mean to you. I'm so sorry. I like you so much. He deserves it. Please don't edit. Please don't edit me out. So just like the introduction. So commercials. That's it. And then there's more commercials. So the so so the same thing is true when you come to the Bible. I heard a stand up comedian recently who was gay and he said like his like his aunt or something was like, aren't you upset? Like doesn't Doesn't it make you upset? Or aren't you afraid? Because in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he says, like, being queer is bad. And he said, no. And she said, why? And he goes, I'm not Corinthian. You know, like, that's not that wasn't written to me. Like, why are you reading other people's mail? So when you read the scriptures, you're reading someone else's mail. It wasn't written to you. If you believe that it's inspired by God and that, you know, he wanted you to read it one day. You can say it was written for you, but you can't say it was written to you. It just wasn't. It was written to another group of people at 2,000 years ago in a completely different culture. And when we remember that, it's completely different when we go to the scriptures to see it. So yeah, Dan, you're right. When you go to the Old Testament, it's non-monogamous out the frame, right? And people try to reframe that. So for example, Solomon, King Solomon had just a shit ton of wives, a shit ton of concubines. I mean, I don't know. He must have found like the early Cialis or something. I don't know what he was doing. Yeah, he was a busy man. Yeah, tying it to a stick. I don't know what he was doing, but he had a lot of the ladies. And these are people that were close to God, right? Like these were people that God held up on a high. And when you say they had concubines, explain what a concubine is for people that don't know what that is. I mean, so it's not very cool, but sex life is basically what it is. Right. I mean, it's like they would like when you took over a village, the women that were left there, they would bring back to the castle and give them to to the people of power and they would be their concubines. I mean, that's yeah. I mean, and if you think like, oh, only bad guys did that. Nope. Nope. The Israelites did it. They were. There was a command of God when they conquered a group of people that they were going to kill everybody, but any of the women that were young and were virgins, they should keep them. Especially like childbearing age type women. Yeah, so it was very common. And so Solomon, I mean, people will try to reframe it and go, well, he was brought down by all those wives. And I'm like, that's not what the scripture says. It says that his wives, who served foreign gods, turned his heart away from God. It wasn't that there were multiple wives. It was that they were pagans. That was the problem. Because then you have King David, who is the greatest king in the Old Testament. It says a man after God's own heart. He did rape somebody and have their husband murdered to cover up that rape. But great guy. And so David, same thing. Like, multiple wives, concubines. That was never a problem. That was never addressed. That wasn't an issue. And so then you get to the New Testament, and we really want Jesus to agree with us, right? Like, because he's the best. If you've not read the Bible, let me tell you, Jesus is pretty sick. He's the main character. He's like, you know, if you haven't read Harry Potter, that Harry Potter guy is pretty cool. So you want Jesus to agree with you. You want him. So that's what the church has done is they've looked around, they go like, oh, well, we're monogamous and we're whatever. So when Jesus is talking about marriage or whatever, it looks like my marriage. And again, I have to say, you're reading someone else's mail. So 2,000 years ago, the way that women were treated and the way that marriage was treated was so completely different than what we're dealing with today. And when you look at the Old Testament, you're right, you see polygamy. you get to the New Testament, and you don't see polygamy. But you know what else you don't see in the New Testament? Is you don't see a prohibition of polygamy. It's never talked about. They're never like, don't fucking do that. Well, in the Greco-Roman world, for reasons completely disconnected from the Christian faith, monogamy was the norm. It was cultural. It wasn't that, oh, well, now we're all closer to God. No. The first century, when Jesus was walking the earth, In the Greco-Roman world, they were already monogamous. It had nothing to do with whether you're... And so people will point to a scripture. The scripture talks about if you're going to be an elder in the church, then you need to be the husband of one wife. And so people will point to that and go, there you go. There you go. It's got to be monogamous. You've got to have one. No. No. First off, again, it's not written to you. But second, is that that requirement is not saying that having multiple wives is a problem. It's saying that if you're going to be a leader in this new church movement we're doing, you can only have one wife. That's what it's saying. Now, you can interpret that and say, well, that means we should only all have one wife. You have no idea why he wrote that. There's no like, and I'm writing this because polygamy is bad. There's none of that. So it's like, if you want to join our club, our rules are this, is what the letters essentially say. Well, not just, yeah, if you want to be a leader of our club, it doesn't say anything if you enjoy the club. So were there early church members with multiple wives? Probably. You could interpret that as you only can have one wife. Why? Because you'd be fucking busy. You'd be so busy. Well, in my understanding, a little bit of the research, a big reason the Romans went to monogamy is because they didn't want their... Lineage. Right. The lineage and their wealth, they didn't want it divided. So when they passed their wealth down from, you know, from the king to the next heir. They didn't want to divide it amongst five different families. So basically, you have to pick one family so that you can kind of remain in power longer because your wealth will just go down one lineage instead of getting split up into multiple. It was about law and lineage. And that's why in the Greco-Roman world, you'd see adults adopting adults because they decided, I want my wealth to go through you. And so they would adopt an adult and be like, hey, 40 year old man you're my little boy now because they were they were trying to get their lineage to go that way they were disappointed in their children and they wanted they wanted their lineage to go to go that way and like what but also not too many men of power during that time that were truly monogamous like they were having sex with everybody i mean there was orgies there was all the things right absolutely yeah absolutely again in the new testament there's never a condemnation of that behavior. Never. And so it's silent. And then people go, again, like, and people go, like, what about Jesus? Because he defines marriage in the book of Matthew. And I would say, you're right, he does. But when he talks about marriage, he says, he points back to Genesis, he points back to the creation myth of Adam and Eve. And by the way, when I say myth, I mean that it's an ancient the ancient Hebrew myth, like all other creation stories told at the time, and if you're a Christian, that doesn't mean that there's not truth to it. And what I mean is the creation myth—sorry, you're going to cut all this out, Dan. No, I'm not. I really am not. But the creation myth—the point is the ancient Hebrews weren't—they knew they were telling a myth. They said, hey, we need to come up with a story to tell people about our God and how we He believed that He created everything. And so you can be a Christian and go, okay, so it probably wasn't a literal Adam and Eve, but I think God started everything. I think that God started everything. And I think Adam and Eve, which Adam is literally Hebrew for man, I think it's showing how God desires to have a relationship with mankind and with us. And so Jesus cites this story, and He cites their marriage. and he says that the two will become one flesh, like a man will leave his father and mother and the two will become one flesh, right? And people will go, see? There it is. One flesh. You got one. There's one there. There's no prohibition against doing that multiple times. Like the point of it, the point of that teaching is completely missed if you say, well, that's about monogamy. No, it's about family. It's about connection. It's about commitment. It doesn't talk about number. It has nothing to do with that. And so, again, we're reading into it. And when you look at Jesus' teaching—the last one, I'm sorry—when you look at Jesus' teaching on lust, when they say—Jesus says that if you have lust in your heart for a woman, then you've committed adultery with her. Like, he says it that much, right? Same thing, like if you have hate in your heart, then you've committed murder, right? Like he's trying to, he's speaking in an allegorical way to say to people that, specifically the religious people who are like, well, I've never fucking killed anybody. He's like, you ever hated anybody? Then you basically have. And so he's teaching that way. And so what my youth pastors used to do and what our church leaders used to do is they would take, when he says, if you've lusted, then you've committed adultery in your heart. And they would say, so don't ever lust. because you're committing adultery. My whole fucking life, I'm walking around going like, I can't look at anybody, right? And I would just try to hide my eye and I felt all this guilt, right? And that didn't even always work because I was like, you sound curvy, right? Like I just, it didn't matter, right? But that's how you, you know, this is how you end up with people in burkas and stuff. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's where they get that kind of, you know what I mean? Like it can take, you can take that to such an extreme that a lot of times is I think people trying to do a good thing and end up forcing people to suffer in a lot of ways. You know what I mean? A hundred percent. And Jesus' whole point there was not about, it wasn't about lust or adultery. His point was about, one, was about don't think you're better than you are. But two, it's really about, it's about respect for other people. people, it's about not objectifying and using other people. Like, when Jesus gets upset in the New Testament, when you see him go into the temple and flip tables, when you see him make a whip and run people out of the temple, when you see him getting really upset, it's always about the marginalized people being more marginalized. That's what pissed him off. And the book of James says that true religion that's pleasing to God—I can't believe I remember all this stuff—the book of James says true religion that's pleasing is to care for the orphan and the widow in their distress. That's what it says. So it says, like, the only thing God gives a fuck about, you really want to please God, forget your offerings, forget all your, like, all of your, your, uh, standing on the street corner and praying, go take care of orphans and widows in their distress. What's he saying? The most vulnerable people who are getting taken advantage of all the time, fucking stand up for them. Like, don't catch me. Don't get, don't let me catch you doing what everyone else has done to those people. And so I think when it comes to the lifestyle, I know this is kind of a funny transition, but I think that's one of the beautiful things about consent being at the center of this lifestyle. Because I think that, again, when Jesus teaches on this thing, on these things, it's about not objectifying and belittling and dehumanizing and taking advantage of people. That's what his teaching is about. And so when we come to this lifestyle, if you are respecting—the Bible talks about we're creating the image of God, meaning that there's an immutable dignity about me and about you and about every other human on this earth that can't be taken away from them, no matter the decisions they've made. I think that's a beautiful idea. I don't necessarily believe in God anymore, but I love this idea that there's some divine spark in every person I meet. that there's a dignity in them that can't be taken away, no matter the mistakes they've made, no matter what they look like, where they've been, no matter if I agree or disagree with them. That's a beautiful thing. And we need to protect that. We need to protect that. And I think to objectify, belittle, take advantage of, you do the opposite of that. And so in the lifestyle, as long, again, as consent is at the center of it, I would say, Hey, Christians, I don't think you've broken a single fucking teaching of Jesus. As long as, again, like we, we consent, we're walking into this going, I want to connect with you in this way. It's a legitimate, um, real way that you and I can enjoy one another, connect with one another and like provide a moment of joy with one another. one another. I sure do try. They don't always get there. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I think that that respects that divine spark in you. Yeah. I have a few comments on that. So I think, one, if I look at my own religious journey over the years, I very much struggle with taking this book in literal sense, which I don't think it was ever meant to be. But to your point, the teachings of the Bible, if you look at it as this is a compass that we've passed down through the generations to try to help the next generation, is like a guiding light on how you should act to be a good human. There are some core fundamentals into those teachings. Take care of your neighbor. Feed the hungry. Take care of the poor. Like you said, take care of widows and children. Man, that's something I think everybody on this earth should be able to get behind. And to your point, I really think that that's the whole point of this, is to just be a moral foundation that us as human beings can agree on how we're going to treat people. Yeah, but see, dogma, we're back to dogma, we're back to structures of power within churches. They're all about who's in and who's out, right? Because if I don't say you're out. Then maybe I'm out. So I'm in. You're out. And we have to line up. And we have to. And that's why you get wonky things happening. Especially around sexuality. Like our lifestyle is so easy to see from a distance. Like it stands out. You know like if you. If I'm having a conversation. And I throw out three things about myself. And Swinger's one of them. It doesn't matter what the other. I used to play basketball as a kid. I murdered my parents in their sleep, and I'm a swinger. They're not going to hear the first two things, right? I'm going to get away with murder. And so that's a thing that people can point at, and they can go, that's out, that's out. That's not in that's out. And in church, they can do that. That's out, that's out. But let me tell you, as a pastor, there were people who came to my church who were There was a guy who, he had had an affair. He was having an affair. His wife knew about it. She didn't want to break up the family. And so he was just like, I don't care. And so he's actively hurting her. That dude fucking showed up to church and sat there with his wife. But he played the game. They pretended, so nobody... No one can see it, right? And so gay people, you're absolutely welcome in church, as long as... they can't tell right but then don't wear a don't wear a pride t-shirt point at it right if i can point at it then you're out and i'm in and so this lifestyle is so different it's easy to see it from afar and to be able to go oh that's out we don't do that that's out and you know and it's a shame it's a shame and then one last thing i want to touch on because we're you know we're running short on time uh lacy can you can you just for one second we're trying to talk here i'm She's a loud mouth I'm just taking it all in I'm listening The last thing How we got to this podcast is me and you met at Secrets and had a conversation I was like man I would like to get parts of this onto the podcast You call it a conversation I call it something We were in that stall together for a while I don't know if I would. Exactly. We weren't supposed to talk about that part of it. We celebrate all things. But one of the things that really struck me that you said during that conversation is that finding the lifestyle, you felt like you found everything the church was supposed to be. And so I'm wondering what you what do you mean by that? Yeah, I mean, we would. in every church I was a part of, we would use the language like it's home, you know, like this is a family. And as a father, and I look at my kids, I have like teenagers. And so I have boys who are so funny and just they're just dumb. They're dumb little animals. And I have a daughter that I'm deeply afraid of. and they there's nothing that they're going to come into my house with looking like doing that I'm going to say you're out they'll never say that to my kids you know like they're always in and that's what I that's what church was supposed to be it was supposed to be a place where we were family and it's okay Hey, it's okay. It's okay for me to walk in and be a little fucked up because you'll never say I'm out. And they did. And it's not just me. I mean, there are people, it gets on my nerves because people will hear my story and they'll be like, one church hurt you and blah. No, motherfucker. I was in churches for 17 years. I saw them do this over and over. And I kept thinking, well, I'm just going to, I need to find a good thing. We haven't talked about it much, but your brother being an openly gay drag queen, they must have pointed to him and said, he's out, right? And that's your brother who I assume you love and care about. Yeah. He pointed at them and said, I'm out. Yeah. Good for him. He's a lot smarter than me. Yeah. But even if he wanted to be there, they wouldn't have allowed it. No. And that had to be hard. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is hard, and it's funny. I think about his... If the people... If I was still in that world... Well, I mean, I don't have to say if. It fucking happened to us. If people in the world found out what my sexual proclivities were, they would turn their back on me. I don't have to guess. I know they would, because they fucking did. And it's funny, because that's what the church has done to gay people. I was talking to my brother, and I was like, I think I kind of understand your plight a little bit, you know, like you're just trying to live your life and be true to yourself. And all these people hate you for no fucking reason. I was like, I kind of understand. Like, I kind of understand the gay experience now. And then I realized I didn't because I called my parents and they still answered. So I was like, OK, maybe I don't exactly understand the gay experience. Yeah. Yeah. We've used that comparison, too. And I'm always careful because, you know, yes, we're swingers and people will not talk to us and won't let their kids come to our house. and things like that. But no, he's tried to kill me. You know what I mean? Like, no, nobody's like, it's not, you know, it's a little, I think it's a little bit different of a path. Not yet, Dan. Right. Well, that's true. That's true. I mean, you guys are getting so successful. I mean, you're going to have some terrain. Right, man. Yeah, it could happen. Like, if I can't have him, nobody can. She can, she might can have him. I mean, I'll shave her. That's the whole point of this. Don't kill me. You can probably, there's an 80% chance you can have me. Like, let's be honest. If you're over 80. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is like a conversation and like we get so many emails. I'm a pastor or we're in our church. We don't want anybody to find out. So I think this is an important conversation to have. There are actually, we've met multiple pastors in the lifestyle that are still actively participating in their church and, and come to events and things like that. That's wild to me. And it's not because I think it's, it's that, that it's incongruous with their beliefs. Cause I really don't think it is. but it's wild to me because in that culture it's very not okay and so the minefield that they're walking should really show everyone the power of pussy and dick I mean like you'd walk right in that minefield my god that's pretty good stats up alright Yeah. No, it's I think that's true. And I think, you know, there is something to the more repressive of an environment you're in, the more likely you, you know, the whole preacher's daughter, you know, why are there more strip clubs, strip clubs and swinger clubs in the South than there are anywhere else in the country? You know, I think there is something to the more you try to repress somebody, the more they, they find ways to, to explore that. Well, my wife, my wife has said, we've had, we've had some really fun experiences and, And we've checked some stuff off the fuck it list that I thought there's no way on God's green earth. Sorry, I don't say God anymore. Oprah's green earth that she would ever go for this. And whenever we tell people about it, like you tell your craziest stories, she always goes, well, I just want you guys to know, I was very repressed. She's like trying to like, listen. I get it. I know. It's crazy, but I was so repressed. And honestly, something my brother and I talk about is, he said, you know, I didn't make being gay an identity for myself. The church did. Like the church said, that's who you are. That's all you are. And yes, that is who he is. That's not all he is. But that's what the church did. And he said, you know, if the church didn't talk about all that stuff, like if they didn't make such a big deal, about sex and about, like, sexual identity and sexual expression, if they would just leave that alone, he's like, I probably would still be in the church. You know, like, I probably would still believe. I probably still, you know, and I was like, I don't, I wouldn't go that far. But he, you know, like, it, it is, it's, it's wild because these people reaching out to you, why are you even worried about it? Like, I, I, I hope that I could say, To every Christian who's listening. The scriptures always talk about how truth sets you free. If you're living your truth and you feel like you have to hide, something's wrong. Be free in your truth. If this is who you are, if this is what makes you happy, and again, the line is consent. Jesus said that there's two commandments that all of the law and the prophets hang on. He's like, these are the only two things that matter. You have to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. I don't do that one so much anymore. The second one is you need to love your neighbor as yourself. And he said, and those two are the same. You can't do one without the other. So Jesus said, basically, the most important fucking thing in the whole world is how you treat other people. Do that. Do that. But if you walk into a modern church today, the most important thing to God appears to be sexual orientation. That's all they fucking talk about. The most important thing is apparently monogamy. That's all they fucking talk about. But that's not what he said. He said the most important thing is love. So if you can, and if you want a definition of love, go to 1 Corinthians 13. Let's do a Bible study, guys. Go to 1 Corinthians 13. It's the most perfect definition of love ever. If you've ever been to a wedding, you've heard it. But go look at that definition, that love is patient and it's kind. It doesn't envy. It's not boastful. It's not arrogant. It's not rude. It doesn't insist on its own way. Um, if you can do that, it's nobody fucking go be free and go love people. If you can, if you can interact with people in a way that's authentic and makes them feel like more of a person and not less, if you can give and not take away, what's wrong with that? What the fuck is wrong with that? So I just, God, don't care. that shame anymore, Christians. Like, if you want to believe, that's great. That's wonderful. There's wonderful things about Christianity for sure. But, like, God, don't walk around with all that shame anymore. And if you do, you better have a fucking good reason for it. Because, like, I don't know. I mean, the whole thing about following Jesus is supposed to be a place of freedom. It's supposed to be a place of love and, like, this hiding yourself and heaping shame on yourself and allowing other people to heap shame on you. That's what we did. That fucking sucks. That didn't lead anywhere. Living like that? That's bullshit. If you believe in Jesus, that's not what he was about. He says he came to set you free. Is that freedom to you? Love people and relax. Get out there. Suck a dick. Give your friends a few orgasms. Share. Be a giver. You've been taught your whole life. that sharing is caring. And then you become an adult and you start fucking other people and people all of a sudden have a problem with it. You know me? I don't understand. Can I tell you, we had a friend, I told you before we started recording, who she brand new lifestyle. And one of the comments she made that she preached about the lifestyle that I haven't thought about was she said, I love how you guys play. And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, you even use that language. Like we lose that as adults. Like you, you go hang out with these people and you guys just you're playful and you play and you have a good time and um she's like it's really it's like a really special thing i was like yeah yeah it really is now take your top off so we have a good relationship no that's perfect um okay i mean i don't know what else to say i think we're about out of time is there anything else you want to tell the swing nation listeners um before we go normally i would have you plug all your stuff um but you're still You are still in the closet. So people that are listening, he's still semi in the closet. He's gone through all this. And that kind of shows you how strong societal norms against swinging and non-monogamy are, that you've gone through all this and still really don't want to be overly public about it. So I would just say, if you think you recognize my voice, you don't. Shut the fuck up. No, I mean, I really, really am grateful for this community. And I just can't imagine, if you're out there and you're kind of struggling with that, I want you, the next time you go to an event, the next time you go on a date, the next time you go to a house party, or the next time you go to a lifestyle club, or you go to the the greatest takeover posted by the Swing Nation. The next time you're there, and you're interacting with those people, and you're vulnerable, and they're vulnerable, and you have this respect and love for one another, how does that feel? Does it feel authentic? Does it feel like love to you? Does it feel real to you? Don't deny that, then. Like, one of the things that, not just Christianity, I'm not talking about Christians in particular, but religion does in general. One of the first things it does is take away your ability to trust yourself. I mean, I think that's the origin of original sin. Like, wow, how do we even have that in theology to believe that we're born broken, born fucked up? You can't trust yourself. I know you think this feels right, but we're saying it's actually not right. So forget how you feel because that's just the sin in your heart, you know? And I would just say like, no, if the scripture, if you believe the scriptures, the scriptures say that you're creating the image of God. So like you have his characteristics in you, you have, you have his uniqueness about you. You can trust yourself. Like you can trust yourself. So the next time you're at those events, trust yourself and look around and say, how do I feel? And do I feel more of a person? Do I feel less? The people around me, like, am I able to give to them or am I just taking? And If you can authentically connect and love people around you and you can receive love, trust yourself. That sounds good. I'd probably stick with good. I think that's the, I don't think I can say it. We're going to pass the plate now. I don't think I can say it any better than that. I think that's perfect. You know, and I got to get my commercials in. So I think we end it with that. So I really, I want to say I really do appreciate you taking the time and coming on here and talking about such a kind of a And I do hope that our listeners heard you for what you're saying and how authentic it is. And I think we're coming at this conversation from a good place. And so I think it's affected me having this talk, and I hope it has positive effects on everybody listening. Lacey, I listen to so many episodes, and I've never heard you be this quiet. Well, I get scared when it comes to religion. To be honest with you, I get scared with politics and religion of saying something wrong. Um, you know, you wouldn't know that I graduated from a Christian university, but I just, I don't know. I'm just kind of taking it all in. I have lots of mixed emotions. Um, I don't know what, I don't know how to, I don't know what to say other than that. I think people will, um, there will be people that this will really help. And there will be people in your comments. ripping me a new one. Telling me that I don't know what the Bible says. Yeah. I'm going to hell. Oh, yeah. And to that comment, usually it is funny to me that the people that are the cruelest. Usually have a Bible version. Usually are doing it in the name of, you know, with religion in mind. Yeah. There's no, I always say there's no hate like Christian love. Yeah. It's kind of the. Yeah. It's kind of been our experience. Which goes against everything. I was taught about Christianity growing up, but here we are. I mean, it's funny because the most life-giving things that I learned in Christianity and learned from the teachings of Jesus, as I've been on my own separate journey, just being like, well, what other wisdom is out there that I've always ignored? I mean, there's so much of it that shows up in Buddhism, and there's so much of it that shows up in humanist philosophers. And you go, oh, this isn't unique. to the Bible. This is like, this is how humans have figured out the best way to live the most meaningful life. Yeah. And interact with each other. Yeah. And they've just branded it their own way. But like the best parts are there, you know, like Jesus, Jesus saying that it's better to give than to receive. It's a Buddhist idea. You know, the, um, like forgetting yourself and putting other people first. It's also a Buddhist idea. Like all these things, like they're universally true. And, um, Yeah, so there's helpful things there. And that's why, you know, I don't want to throw stones at people who have faith and call themselves Christians. It's not for me anymore, but there's beautiful things in there, too. There's really beautiful things in there. So, anyway, I don't know. I'm afraid this could be the most boring episode. No, I don't think so at all. I don't think so at all. All right. Well, I think we'll wrap it there. And I appreciate you, again, appreciate you taking the time. And I hope to see you at our next event down there on Secrets. in April. And he has a beautiful wife. He does have a beautiful wife. She's stunning. All right. And if you I guess I'll just send you an email so we can schedule our OnlyFans collab the next time you guys come down here. All right. It was great talking. Perfect. I know dance type and you're she's in. You're good. Oh, I I'm not worried about that for a second. I knew I knew she was in. See, I need to know if I'm in. That's the question. Oh, okay. I think I just bored the shit out of you with the Bible lessons. No, no, you're fine. We'll see. We'll see how Dick the Big is. How Dick the Big is. Yeah. That's one of my favorite Bible verses. Yeah, mine too. All right, everybody. All right, guys, this was super fun. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you. All right, I think with that, in a world full of apples. Be the pineapple. Be the pineapples, guys. Bye. If you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us, leave a five-star review wherever you're listening. If you want to see more of our content, you can find links to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, OnlyFans, and more in the show notes. Come join the conversation with us and other Swinger content creators on our Swinger Society Discord server. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at theswingnation at gmail.com. Make sure you head on over to Swinger Society. to theswingnation.net and keep up to date on all things Swing Nation. We thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time. Goodbye. That's so hot.