Episode 69: Consent- More Than Words

Transcript

This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey you teenagers out there, if you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a long-time married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex-positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello, everyone. I'm Mr. Jones.

And I'm mrs jones and we want to welcome you to episode 69 of the we got a thing podcast consent more than words it's the title of a song and whoa whoa wait a minute i'll be editing this part out no you will not yes not even mr jones came up with a title and it's the title of a song okay anyway we've and you actually have sung this song that's true at a wedding at a wedding that's true i forgot about a good friend of yours yeah that was a whole long time ago yes it was a long time ago and they're still married speaking of that uh happy podcast-iversary i know five I know. Five years.

Five years. Who'd have thunk it? I know. And six years in the lifestyle. Yeah. I think we might know a thing or two. I'll learn the hard way, but that's okay. Yeah, so we're going to talk about consent tonight. And this is something that a lot of people have talked about in the lifestyle. A lot of podcasts have talked about, and we have had this on our list to talk about for a while, and we're waiting for the right opportunity. Right. We wanted to be able to frame it so that it was kind of authentic to our journey. Yes.

And I think we have finally had enough insight where we feel like we can kind of speak to it to make it relevant to not only us, but to our listeners. Yeah. But before we get to that, though, in just a couple of days, I can't believe it's been a year, but we're going back to desire again. I know. Six years since we went there the first time. I know. It's amazing. Yeah, like I did the laundry yesterday, and that was it. That's the laundry. We're not doing any more laundry. Suitcases are out. Yep, we're getting ready to pack.

It's amazing how much stuff you pack to go to a clothing optional resort. Yeah, especially you ladies in your shoes. I know. But you know you like it.

I do like it, especially the're gonna i would much rather leave my over the knee thigh high boots they take up extra room and you never complain about me putting those in the pile nope no you can you can leave some of the other stuff i have silver shoes i have to take red shoes just for they have like a couples movie star theme night and we're going to be um sandy and danny from greece so i have to take red heels and black leather pants and oh that's sexy yeah i gotta do the big curly fuck me hair i know and i got a nice uh pre-desire uh fashion show last night i know like lingerie night like what lingerie am i gonna wear corset night which corset do you like that i approved everything i know but i don't think i was much help that's what i was just gonna say like at some point you have to say pack this one not that honey you look good in everything oh you're such a well-trained husband But thank you for that I'll take it It led to some pretty good sex afterwards too It definitely did.

So we're looking forward to seeing about 60 or 70 of our closest couple friends in a few days at Desire. That's right. And speaking of Desire, we are announcing tonight our Desire 2020 week, which is November 14th through the 21st. Yes. We are in a rut. We always go the full week before Thanksgiving week. Well, we've always gone up until this point. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what we're doing again next year. It fits into our schedule well. And I think once people get there, I think they really appreciate the escape from reality before, you know, going home and just having it hit you. Yeah.

So we already have a link up on our website. If you want to travel with us, and I've said this before the past couple years, this will sell out. Yeah. And we had 10 or 15 couples on a waiting list this year. So go ahead and check out our website and book through our link to be on the official guest list for November 14th through 21st of 2020 yes for our desire trip yep we had a big announcement this week we are next we got a thing event our weekend event is going to be the weekend of February 6th through the 9th. That's a Thursday night through a Sunday at 2020 in Austin, Texas. Yes.

I have been doing... Working your ass off. I have. And I have had three other couples that live in the Austin area helping us come up with the perfect hotel to book and the restaurants and just some of the fun different events that we're going to do throughout the weekend. And it's kind of growing a little bit, like not size wise per se, but we're going to actually start it on Thursday night this time. Yeah, we're expanding the weekend. We're going to start on Thursday night. We're going to do an extra workshop on Friday morning about erotic journaling with your partner. Yeah.

And we are going to do a group dinner. So we're adding a few more things, but we're going to keep it to 50 couples. Yes. So there is a link on the events section of our website. If you think you might be interested, it's open right now for registration for those in our private community. And then on December 1st, we're going to open it up for everyone else. December 2nd. Okay, December 2nd. Yeah. All right. We need to come home from Vegas first. Oh, right. Yeah, we expect that that's going to sell out too. We're going to go to a lifestyle club on Saturday night.

We've got a group dinner on Friday night. We've got all kinds of things planned. Yeah, we've actually rented a whole section of a restaurant, like an upscale Tex-Mex restaurant, and we're going to do a group dinner in a private setting on Friday night. Actually, for people rolling into town on Thursday, we're going to go to a comedy club. So we've got all kinds of fun stuff planned.

It's going to beatherine's coming again so we're super excited about that so i'm sure you and katherine and i will put our heads together and come up with i figured something meaningful to talk about i figured out why katherine comes to all of our events because she has a crush on us no well me oh does her husband have a crush on me whatever if. If you've never met Catherine and her lovely, extremely handsome husband, yeah, you've missed out. Yeah, so we're looking forward to that. She's brains and beauty. Yeah, I know. So keeping up with the Joneses, enough for the business.

All of that information is on our website. So keeping up with the joneses we just got back from a surprise birthday party for one of our community members in kansas city i know and i am drinking what's it called regerts reger's reger's bourbon kansas city whiskey we bought some while we were out there so tonight i am drinking a manhattan made from reger's whiskey well we went to a speakeasy See you next week.

whiskey we bought some while we were out there so tonight i am drinking a manhattan made from rieger's whiskey well we went to a speakeasy there and this was like a legit speakeasy like it kind of had a storefront and i thought oh that's where we're going and and our friend said oh no we have to like walk around the back alley yeah you have to go to the back door and there was like this industrial like it was literally the back of like a not a strip mall because it was in in a town but it was like the back of a commercial building where the gray metal doors and you had to like bang on the door and then you went in and and like yeah said the secret password and go down the rickety stairs there was no electricity downstairs it was all candlelight it was yeah there were no lights it was all candlelight it was a super like mysterious well it made it extra um easy to flirt and uh with the with the couple that we were with because there were no lights on that's true candles that's true and you and i had it easy because we're not from kansas city so we knew we wouldn't run into anybody we knew.

Well, so, you know, we really feel honored that we were invited out there. Absolutely. And so, you know, invite us. We're open to all kinds of invitations. I know. We decided to go out there, and it was a surprise that we were going to be out there for this. There was a lot of surprises for this particular person. I had never met the birthday girl in person. You had, because you've gone to Kansas City on business and gone out to dinner with these folks. I had never met the vast majority of them. So, yeah, and we went. And it was hilarious. So, like like she had no idea we were there.

And we rolled into town on Friday night and everybody except for the birthday couple got together on Friday night for dinner. I got to eat. Oh, I had like real Kansas City barbecue. Jack Stack barbecue. That brisket, you didn't have to chew it. It just kind of melted in your mouth. It was so good. So we had so much fun Friday night, just kind of like hanging out with everybody, doing Thank you.

that brisket you didn't have to chew it it just kind of melted in your mouth yeah it was so good so we had so much fun friday night just kind of like hanging out with everybody doing a great dinner and then on saturday morning we were told like you and i didn't plan anything we were just told what to do when it was nice it was awesome yeah so we were told to go to this hotel room number at this particular time and we were going to take the birthday girl and her husband. We were going to surprise her. We were going to surprise her and take her out to brunch.

So we knock on the door and they're like okay like come on in and like I walked in first and I've never met her in person before so I didn't really you know I knew it would take like a split second for her to process. She had seen pictures of me but But anyway, I walk in the room, and she just kind of like cocked her head to the side. There was no reaction. No, her chin was, her mouth was open, and she was just gazing around like very confused. And her pretty little head was cocked to the side, and it was like process, process. You could just tell like she was trying to get her brain to work.

And she you and of course she's hung out with you before so you know she knew who we were but it's like her brain just would not catch up to reality yes it was hilarious so there were probably about what eight or ten couples that that were there for the party so we we went out that afternoon they had the wicked wine walk in downtown kansas city and we did that and we just went from bar to bar drinking wine and we ended up at a karaoke bar and i have i knew this was going to i have a love hate relationship with karaoke and and i despise it because people get up and they think they can sing and i'm such an audiophile and such a snob i am a snob and when people get up and i can't help myself i just start laughing but anyway we had had enough to drink and they put i think what happened was we were in this was the end of the wine walk yeah we were in the big room and i think we were so bad that they escorted us into our that was a little weird yeah like they they did have like a few private rooms in the back that's because we were bad oh my gosh that's where they put the bad so we'd be embarrassed or proud no i didn't It wasn't my party.

I was just following the crowd. But yeah, so our group got put in this private room. And I mean, it had a little karaoke machine in there. And it had two different screens so you could read the words. And you got to choose your songs and everything in there. And it had like a soundproof door to shut. And we had so much fun in there. And there are way too many pictures.

and maybe a video yeah so anyway we went to um we we stayed there for a while we went to um a house party but it was a club in kansas city yeah what was the name of it do you remember the kansas city book club yeah we went there um saturday night and it was a pretty happening pretty happening Halloween party. Actually, I was very impressed. I felt very comfortable. It was clean. I felt like it was well run. It just seemed like people were vetted. People were behaving properly, and music was good. I thought it was great. Yeah, nobody was shot.

I swear yeah well that happened in Kansas City I know it did at the other club so anyway we really want to say thank you to the people that organized this birthday party and invited us out and we are so happy that we were able to come you know it was nice to be able to go to an event that we were not hosting and in charge of well and it was so nice to meet them in person for me for you because you would you would was there anybody there that you hadn't met yeah yeah okay so but i i didn't know a lot of the people there and it was just so much fun to go and and just hang out and be part of the crowd yeah and just talk about some genuinely good people they are good people and they're sexy people too and i'm pretty sure that every guy was a really good kisser because i'm pretty sure i i kissed every guy oh you're such a slut maybe more than once we did have so we did have some fun that's a sexy crew for sure so when we come back we're going to talk about consent in the lifestyle and more than words and we're going to explain what that means in just a second yep stay tuned welcome back to segment two on consent We'll be right back.

welcome back to segment two on consent more than words more than words and you know it's hard to believe that we've done so many episodes without really getting into this topic i think we've talked about it a lot but not focused on it it. And there's no question that consent is probably the most fundamentally important principle of engaging with other people in the lifestyle. Right. And I think, I mean, there's been tons of podcast episodes and blogs and such on consent. Yeah.

And, you know, on right um when they talk about consent but i i think one of the things that you and i have uh been kind of batting around is that there's really more to it than just asking for consent up front and i think that's what most people focus on is the verbal part of it yeah may i do this or do i have a mission to do that and then and then once they get that yes they're like hallelujah and they just like go full steam ahead and sometimes maybe don't pick up on or that maybe they don't stay aware well that's really not true because a lot of people do talk about verbal consent like every minute or every five minutes oh well there is that too so i i just think what we're saying is we're going to go broader than just verbal consent yeah so i think we've broken it down into like four different ways to look at it yeah so obviously verbal consent with consent with others.

That's kind of the easy one. And I don't mean easy as in doing it. I mean easy to say. Obvious. Yeah, it's the most obvious one. Yeah, thank you. And then you have nonverbal consent. So, you know, I think that one is a little more subtle. Yeah. But I also think it's more telling. Yes. And I'm sure we're going to talk about that when we get into it. And we're also going to talk about a different kind of consent that maybe you haven't thought of before, and that is giving yourself consent to touch and to be touched by others.

So in other words, when somebody asks you, before you verbalize an answer answer you have to make a decision in your own mind yeah and give yourself consent and we'll talk you'll understand that hopefully a little bit better you know when we get to that part but before we start there's probably some background we need to set up um first of all it's you know it's it's impossible sometimes to understand the intent of and motivation of other people especially when you don't know them right you know if you've just met them like you have no way of knowing what's going on in their head exactly so that's a given and that goes in daily life a lot of this of this is appropriate in daily life, too.

We're also talking about consent that's from a starting point that both parties intend no harm to the other. That is true, and I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind. Nobody's being forced to do anything and um you you have to go into it with that mindset you know people are there because they at least think they want to be there yes yeah so the context of our conversation is from the starting point that both parties intend no harm right okay because that's a totally different conversation oh Oh, of course. Somebody in 10 time.

We're also coming from this perspective that both parties are choosing to engage in lifestyle. Right. This is not just cocktails. I mean, as far as where you're getting to where it's time to start asking for consent.

so both parties whether it's two four or five however many people have willingly come into this lifestyle and are engaging with others with the distinct possibility of there being some sort of physical interaction right and it doesn't have to be full-on intercourse i mean just any kind of interaction that wouldn't be considered like the norm in mainstream society so we wanted to set that as a baseline also um participating in the lifestyle at any level means you're subjecting yourself to the possibility of some sort of physical contact with others right so this should not come as a surprise to you i know that somebody's going to reach across and touch your arm or touch your elbow or want to hug you so you know that you know you're we're choosing you know to do this right and I think you know you have to accept responsibility for your decision to participate in the lifestyle and that means that if you've made that decision to do that you've got to be prepared to either ask for consent or to answer when somebody asks you for consent to do something right so as an active participant in a lifestyle you should have already thought about how you're going to navigate the the idea of consent and honestly i remember that was really scary at first just like that thought of that first time when i kissed another man well remember we thought everybody was going to want to attack us and have sex with us we did think and that was a mindset that that we were just naive as far as how right we thought it was going to be a free-for-all yeah yeah and and it's not like that at least not in the you know arenas that we attempt to engage Right.

You're right. We thought it was going to be a free-for-all. Yeah. Yeah, and it's not like that, at least not in the arenas that we attempt to engage. Right. You're also, we have to understand that you're responsible for understanding how sometimes advances may impact you personally. And this, again, is beyond this podcast because... Well, it is beyond the podcast, but, but not really because many of us, and, and of course I'm, I'm speaking on behalf of the females out there, but it's happened to men too.

If you've been a victim of sexual trauma of some sort at some point in your life, um, you've obviously had a lot of processing and dealing, um, to overcome that. And, and it's amazing that you've come from, um, someplace where you've had to endure trauma like that. And you've gotten to the point where you think you're ready to engage in the lifestyle, but you're probably, you know, going into it with a little bit more trepidation than someone that has not experienced that trauma.

So you just have to be really aware of what kind of triggers could come up during play very innocently that are going to put you on guard. And what I'm saying is that if that's the case with you, which it is with many people, what we're saying tonight is not, it's not medical advice. It's not therapy. We're not trying to provide that. No, we're trying to provide perspective. And like the whole mission of our podcast, we say we're doing this from the perspective of where we are and we can't possibly put ourselves in somebody else's shoes who's had that experience. Right.

So just understand that that's where we're coming from. You know, there's different types of physical touch, too, before we start this.

We've talked about flirting before and you know how we've talked about, you somebody touching the smile of your back or your elbow or your shoulder your forearm it not in a sexual way just as a way to start making that physical connection right you know where it it really wouldn't be inappropriate in a normal public setting right so when we talk about physical touch for consent we're not talking about me touching your elbow or reaching across and putting my hand on your shoulder. Oh my gosh. I'm a hugger. I know. So there's, you know, and some people don't like that.

So there's different cultures. Um, you know, there's different backgrounds and where the part of the world we live in and the family we grew up in shaking somebody's hand is a polite polite thing to do. And that's a physical contact. And when somebody reaches their hand out, you typically take it and you don't take it like somebody's being aggressive with you. Or if somebody comes to hug you, it's because they're greeting you warmly.

And so there's a big difference in our minds for some sort of a greeting or salutation or physical touch with flirting than there is during playtime when you're in the bedroom. Right. And, you know, I think, um, I think humans are wired to desire physical touch. And again, I'm not even really talking about sex yet. I'm just talking about that's the way we connect with people. That's part, that's one of our senses. So I think that that physical touch is important. But you know, this is where the whole more than words comes into play.

You know, if I'm standing there talking with somebody and you know, I'm starting to kind of like get a little goofy and I'm laughing and I keep like touching their, you know, arm or their shoulder as I'm telling a story. And and I'm not picking up on the fact that they're kind of withdrawing from me because I'm like they don't like that. Then that's bad on me. Like I need to be aware of how somebody is reacting to my. Yeah. To my physical touch. And we're going to talk about that when we talk about body language, that exact thing. Yeah, you're right, though.

The other thing is that you may disagree with our approach tonight when we're talking about this, and that's perfectly fine. I think people just need to understand that they're coming into an environment where some of us may see this as more than a black and white, a verbal, nonverbal thing. And be prepared to be vigilant. If you're the type of person that needs that type of consent, that verbal consent for a handshake or a hug, you know, you're going to have to just prepare yourself for that. Well, I think that's what I was talking about earlier.

If you know that but know you're going to have to just prepare yourself for for that well i think that's what i was talking about earlier if if you know that culturally you're in the minority because let's say you did not grow up in the united states and and you come here and you grew up in a in a culture that is much more formal in their greetings um you just need to have that awareness now you're in another culture just if we travel overseas, we have to be aware to be very respectful of those social norms.

So while you may disagree, it's probably more of a cultural thing or something from your past that is making you react differently than how we're you know, what, how we're reacting. Yeah. And speaking for you and I, um, an innocent touch of the hand doesn't not, does not offend us or emotionally harm us if we're not interested. You know, we don't, we don't take it that way.

It's yes, it's physical touch and maybe it's even necessary to know if there is some sort of a spark or chemistry but it doesn't if it's you know it's not an unwanted it's just something that we're not going to have a negative response to right um now will it make my spidey sense go off sometimes yeah yeah it does yeah but i think that's kind of what you're getting yeah that's an input signal yeah yeah i mean that's something to learn because if somebody touches you and you get a feeling that's not positive then we don't get angry or defensive is what we're saying we learn from that and say you know what um that's my body's way of saying um let's not give consent here exactly right so we're going to define consent um permission ask to touch somebody else and then that permission has got to be granted or acknowledged acknowledged and granted by the other person so for our purposes for this conversation that's how we're defining consent okay i think that works are we ready to go?

Sure. Let's start with verbal. Okay. Use your words, use your voice. You know, sometimes, well, I struggle with using my words, but I do know to ask for consent. Yeah. You know, I'm pretty good at saying, may I kiss you? Yes. Yes, it's required. Yes. Verbal consent is not optional. There are things that lead up to that and things that follow that, but there has to be some sort of verbal question. It doesn't even have to be in the form of a question, but you have to ask and somebody has to acknowledge that. That's pretty much the prerequisite.

Another thing about verbal consent is it can be awkward because, look, we've been married for 35 years now, and we haven't had to worry about verbal consent between the two of us for a long time. Or it's more of a conversation that it is, hey, it's Saturday night. What are we going to do tonight? Well, like if we're going to try something new, we talk about it ahead of time. Yeah, that's true. You know, or we'll stop in the middle of play and talk about it. But, you know, that I'm not afraid to ask you something. Right.

You know, I know sometimes, you know, like I wouldn't want to do something crazy without asking you first and catch you off guard, and you're the same way with me, but, yeah, I'm not afraid of being rejected by you. You might not want to do something, but that wouldn't be anything against me. It would just be against that particular act I'm trying to get at. I know, but you know what?

I have to give you credit because as much as i give you a hard time about not fantasizing um you came up with an idea we're gonna see two of our best lifestyle friends here coming up shortly and and the other day you said you know what when we see them i wonder if they would really like to do this and i about fell out you did you really like and i said are you fantasizing and you said maybe and i said well then when we skype with them i want you to ask that question yeah you put me on the spot and maybe like describe my fantasy in front of them you're getting you're getting to the point just what i'm trying to make here this is it can be awkward yes it was because well it was really hot because they thought it was a good idea so then i was like shoo glad i brought it up yeah no it turned into something that you know was which is what's the next thing can be very sexy so you know it went from awkward to being sexy but i have to give you credit because you had the courage to just throw it out there.

I know, and we've known them for a long time, and I was still nervous about that.

So, yeah, so asking for consent or saying what you want and asking if that would be okay can be, you know, a little awkward and scary, and it doesn't feel natural, I guess, is the thing but then when we had the conversation and they they said that sounded like a lot of fun now the wheels are turning yeah now we're looking forward to that wow we have that in the back of our minds right um and like i was saying it can be sexy too uh i like well like and it doesn't even have to be a question like sometime when i'm when i'm with woman, I'll say, you know, I've really wanted to kiss you all day, or I really want to taste you, you know.

So I don't, sometimes I don't ask a question. I'll just make a statement like that, and I- And see how she responds. I wait for an acknowledgement or a response to that, and then go from there. Because I'm not one of these people that says, may I do this, may I do that, may I do this. Now, at first, I tend to do that more, like may I kiss you? Is it okay if I kiss you? But beyond that, once you start engaging, it can be really sexy the way that you ask and the way that you prompt and encourage conversation during sex. But you know what? It can be annoying too.

Well, I guess the thing about asking for consent is if you don't know the person very well and maybe everybody's a little bit nervous and you can feel that nervous energy in the room, you might tend to overcompensate by asking too much too often. And if you don't know the couple very well, you don't really know what the right balance is or the right level of asking.

So if you have to ask every 30 seconds, it does kind of start taking the little sexy out of the equation i guess but um you know so you you want to be polite and you want to make sure everything's okay but are you are you ruining the momentum by over asking well and this is a good and that's a hard question to answer this is a good point that you could decide that you're not compatible with somebody because if somebody really needs to ask every couple of minutes if this is okay then obviously that's what they need that in order for them to have a good time i'm not somebody who needs that and nor do i want it because after a while it starts to be a distraction yeah and i can't or I can't get into it.

So at that point in time, instead of getting angry at each other about having different ways to communicate, we should just say, you know what, this is probably, you know, maybe we shouldn't do this. Maybe we're not comfortable with each other. And so rather than argue about consent, you're two different people. And remember, in this lifestyle, we're looking for connections and we're looking for people who are fit or complement who we are. Right.

Well, see, I've been wanting to talk about this next one because to me, everything you were just saying, I'm thinking, if you could just read somebody's body language, then you wouldn't have to ask okay so let's talk about number two which is verbal con non-verbal consent yes to me this one is really important it's it's more challenging to pick up on and to um i guess be confident about but i think reading somebody's body language is more telling than their words you know what this if i ask somebody if i can do something and they say yes but then i start playing with them and their body's not responding right that yes wasn't really very helpful i know that's what we're going to talk about down here what i wanted to say clearly i am not following mr jones's outline body language let's just start with body language because it's got the word language in it yeah it's it's almost like um talking with somebody from a different country that speaks a different language, and you want to communicate.

Communication is what we're after here, right? Yeah. Body language is like a foreign language to some people. So it would be like trying to communicate and play with somebody who doesn't speak your language. You have to pay attention and listen and observe. And so if it wasn't just as important as verbal, I don't think we would call it a language because it is a language. That's a really good point. Yeah. So what's the parts of your body that, you know, that you use? I mean, you gave an example, like, how do you show somebody that you're interested in them through your body language?

Well, I think a lot of it has to do with, like, just proximity. You know, as the evening goes on, there's a less personal space around me. Okay, so you're getting closer. I do like to have a bit of a bubble around me. Yeah. But, you know, when I start relaxing and feeling comfortable with the people I'm around, that bubble shrinks a lot. Okay, so you're letting people closer to you. And keep in mind that you didn't ask for consent there. I mean, you're not going to say, may I stand closer to you. No. Right. So these things start to happen. I'm testing the waters. That's exactly right.

And I think that when I get close to somebody and I'm watching them respond, to me, that's what I'm accomplishing. If I'm getting closer to somebody and they're taking baby steps backwards, then obviously we're not comfortable. There's not consent yet. Maybe they want to offer consent, but they're not ready. So if you stop and think about that for a minute, if we don't close that gap, if I'm standing two feet away from you and I just out of the blue blurt out, may I kiss you, that's probably a little awkward and at the wrong time. Yeah.

Because you haven't gotten physically close enough to pick up on their body language. Right. And to pick up on that chemistry. Right. And to pick up on those nonverbal clues.

So when you get closer to somebody and people start talking with their hands and it's very easy to just reach right out in front of you and and put my the tips of my fingers on your forearm when we're standing face to face so you're not talking about grabbing my boob no of course not no i i mean i i'm but making a joke out of it but the fact that you allowed me to get closer to you is some sort of a body language consent that I want you to move closer to me. Or it's okay if you move closer to me. Yeah. And we didn't say anything. Right. Right?

So then when we do get closer, I mean, the thing that I always notice is somebody's eyes. You know, just is there eye contact? Yeah. And are they checking their phone? Or are they looking around the room? Are they interested in me? you know, just is there eye contact and, and, um, are they checking their phone or are they looking around the room? Um, are they interested in me? You know, that's, so when you get that close with somebody and they start averting their eyes, then that's the signal that, you know, maybe I should back away here.

This person's not as interested in them as, and me as I am in them. Exactly. And on the other hand, when, like recently, we had a great experience with the couple, and I had a very strong connection with her, and it was all in the eyes. And she and I did a lot of eye contact, a very close-up eye contact. And it was somebody's allowing me permission to get that close and to look into her. You know, that's very vulnerable when you open yourself up like that, because it can be very emotional to allow yourself to make that kind of connection. And so for me, a lot of it is eye contact.

Yeah, that's true i mean to me i you're right eye contact's important i i just think the overall body language of something like their posture like how are their shoulders are their shoulders drawn up or you know are there you know are they are they relaxed in their stature yeah you know you can just really read a lot from just the way somebody's holding themselves. What are they doing with their hands? Are they kind of wringing their hands? There's just a lot to be learned about somebody just observing how they're standing or sitting or whatever position they're in.

As far as what's really going on in their heads. And sometimes it has nothing to do with a yes or the no that comes out of their mouths. You know what I'm thinking about? I guess this was all nonverbal consent. I'm sorry, I'm going back to Nashville in that elevator. Oh, yeah. That was crazy.

I'm pretty sure there were there were zero words no there was no consent asked for or given well well let's clarify so when we were dancing we did kiss on the dance floor so we had yes we did some consent there yeah and we we talked about may we kiss you on the dance floor so so we had already kissed them on the dance floor so it's not like we got into the elevator and they were complete strangers and we just no we knew yeah we we had met them yeah actually just that day but we had met them and we found ourselves on the elevator and we turned and then there was just that chemistry and the body like the bodies moved together we right you know into that personal space and we just kind of it was just it was all non-verbal consent yes but we didn't play with them that night we did stop unfortunately yeah so so it didn't you know we did get to a point where we said whoo wow that was something we can't wait to see you again you know and we can you know maybe do something else next time so and we would have had to have had a talk at some point because we didn't know their play style we didn't know anything you know about you know their background or their experience or whatever right so yeah there would have been a point in time but but it was their body language that right just made that so obvious but you what you were just easy mentioning is is getting to the next point about you know the non-verbal consent moves you towards an opportunity to do some verbal affirmation like yeah we kissed him in the elevator but if we would have gone any further we would have had to have said hey before we go any further you know what is your are you guys interested in playing what's your play style?

You know, what's your sexuality, what's your sexual preference? You know, we, so the, so the nonverbal body language stuff that got us all hot and bothered led us to a point where we had to use our words. Right. And I think if you're reading somebody's body language and you're kind of picking up on what level of consent there is there, then I think that makes the verbal consent less awkward. Yeah. Because you know they're interested. You just need to like, now let's verify it with some words before we end up doing something, you know, a little more serious. That's right. And you know what?

A lot of people find that nonverbal consent or body language is very difficult. Some people have a hard time picking up on that. Yeah. Because it's not words. You have to intuit. I mean, you have to observe and you have to have some feeling about what's happening. And some people struggle with that. Well, a lot of people like things to be black and white. Right. And that's what verbal consent does, yes or no. Right. And that nonverbal, it's a little bit more of a sliding scale. It's like, yeah, I think I want to, but I might not be brave enough. Yeah.

That's what the body language could be telling you. And then you know that maybe if you just kind of slow things down a little bit and get to know them a little bit more that I'm not sure could turn into a yes. Now for me, this, this last one for nonverbal consent is the most important. And that is, it is continuous monitoring to use a business term. I am always in tune with the person that i'm with or that's what I'm trying to do. Right.

Where if I ask you if I can kiss you, and then at some point in the future I ask if I can remove an article of clothing, there may be a period of time between those two asks, right? Right. Body language and nonverbal communication is constant. It's never disrupted. You know, I'm always, I'm watching, I'm listening, I'm engaging, I'm, you know, I'm at probing, then I will ask a question.

Or I'll move my hand to a certain place and I'll observe for feedback, you know, like, is she getting uncomfortable need to stop and ask you know is she okay so if you know in my opinion the way that i approach it with that is that i'm super super focused on consent but a lot of it is through body language right and you know some people might be listening to this and saying this is such a no no brainer because maybe that's the way you're wired. You're, you're a pretty intuitive person and you're good at reading people. Right. Some people are like, oh, that's crazy. Wow.

I, you know, I need, I need to keep checking in. You know, I thought if I got the go ahead, then I'm good to go. And that doesn't make one person smarter or better than the other. It's just, that's the way your brain processes things. It makes us incompatible to play. Well, possibly yes. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm serious. Because that person would be uncomfortable with me not talking a lot if that's what they need. And I would be thinking it was awkward to be asked a question every 30 seconds.

So neither way both ways are effective but but we believe a combination of the two is the most powerful way to ask for and grant and and get consent well and when you combine both ways you're meeting the needs of all types of people correct you know so i think that does bring everybody to some middle ground where people are going to feel comfortable. Yes. And, and I was with a, we were with a couple not too long ago. As a matter of fact, she's going to be in my snapshot tonight.

Uh, she does a lot of talking and she asks a lot of questions, but it's very, her, her, it's very curious and it's very playful and, you know,'s not is it okay if we do this is okay if we do that it's like hey i have an idea what do you think about this or would it be okay are you sure this is okay if i do this it's very engaging and playful and yeah you know fun and so she and i like that because it's really turning her on so if i'm going to be engaged that way in verbal communication that that works fine i just it doesn't need to be like a job interview for me I don't know.

I don in verbal communication, that works fine. I just, it doesn't need to be like a job interview for me. That's sexy, Mr. Jones. Well, I'm just telling it like it is. Yeah. Okay. So that one is a little bit more difficult. I think we agreed than verbal. Yeah. Right.

Well, I don't think it, I don't think it's difficult i don't either i think it just leaves um more it's more open to interpretation so you have to be paying attention right you have to check in i mean yes means yes and no means no that's obvious i like the word interpret that that's a good word so if i'm picking up on body language and i act upon it then it's my responsibility to check with you to make sure that i interpreted that properly oh that's good yeah because if you if you all of a sudden recoil or if you back away my interpretation is okay i didn't understand i must not have understood you and then there'll be some sort of a conversation right is this okay yeah if you need to interpret that then you need to ask you know for that kind of interpretation right it's a good point okay so now we're going to talk about giving yourself consent okay what in the world do you mean by that well you already spilled the beans on this one so we'll go back back to the, you said earlier that you may tell somebody yes, but maybe you didn't, or you didn't really want to.

Well, I think you sometimes try to talk yourself into something, you know, it'll, it'll be okay. It isn't that you don't want to do it. It's just, you're not sure how you're going to respond to it.

so you know it'll it'll be okay it it isn't that you don't want to do it it's just you're not sure how you're going to respond to it so you know i think you you have to make a decision as an individual am i going to go ahead and and just try this and see how it goes or should i just you know cut the cord now yeah so let me give you an example um let's say that there's four of us playing and I'm on my side of the bed, just having a good old time because that's typically what happens.

And you are in a situation where somebody asks you to do something and your first thought is that's not something that I really want to do, or I don't really feel like doing that at this moment because I'm not comfortable. But you look over on the other side of the bed and you see I'm having a good time, the other woman's having a good time, the gentleman that just asked you a question so far, and so you start to compromise with yourself. So you're really going against your own consent because you don't really want to do it, but verbally you say, okay. But maybe it's not enthusiastic.

Maybe your heart is really not in it. So when we say give yourself consent, you're the first line of defense in your own head. If there's something that somebody asks you, and it even is worse if the person that's asking you is more of a verbal person, because they're not going to pick up on the body language that all of a sudden you said, it's okay if we do this, even though you don't want to do it, I would pick up maybe on your body language, not being enthusiastic, but other people said, oh, I got a green light. She said, yes. So I'm just going to plow forward. Right.

And I think the reason people struggle with this is because, and I've had this happen before where I haven't really wanted to do something, but I've agreed to do it. And then it's been awesome. Yeah. Right. You know? Right.

So you're going through this little like mind struggle with yourself and like right instantaneously because somebody's asked you a question and you're expected to respond right and in your head you're thinking okay why do i not want to do this you know i'm i'm a little afraid and is it just because i haven't done it before it's because i didn't have time to talk to my partner ahead of time um is my partner going to be okay with that and and it's just like you know all of this stuff is spinning all at the same time right um so yeah how do you how do you make a good decision and give yourself consent to try something new exactly and in the heat of the in the heat of the moment yeah because i you know, like the idea of pulling hair.

Okay, I had two sisters, so I pulled their hair a lot. So maybe I scarred them. I don't know. But a guy may say, maybe he's doggy style, and maybe he goes and grabs a handful of your hair, and he says, is it okay if I pull your hair? Yes, it is. Yes. I like that. Well, for you, yes. Right. But if you're somebody that thinks of a woman being dragged by a caveman, when you think of hair pulling and you think it's subservient and you think somebody's dominating you and that's what you want, then you're going to have a completely different reaction to it.

So you have to decide, is that hair pulling something that is going to bother me? Or is it just something that, meh, if he wants to do it, that's fine. We'll give it a try. But it's up to you. You're the only one that knows what's going on inside of your head.

You're the only one that knows what experiences you've had in the past and what your feelings are about that and then to your point you have to decide hey you know what i gotta get over this hey go ahead give it a yank yeah but it's really up to you it is up to each individual and and again the the problem with this whole consent thing is that the the play partner doesn't know your past. Right.

You know, your partner does, your life partner does, but your play partner does not know your past, does not know if there's something that's happened to you in the past that is, you know, going to affect the way you respond to certain things in the heat of the moment. Right. Right. And another thing is that if somebody asks you something and you've already had your talk about the boundaries and they ask you to go beyond the boundaries, then it's more than just hair pulling because we didn't talk about that.

It's we talked about soft swap and that's what we agreed to and now you're asking me to full swap. So that is more of a trust issue and a bigger issue. You're not going to want to give somebody consent if you've already addressed this, right? Right. I don't think it's fair to ask for consent to push that kind of a boundary in the middle of play. Right. It's kind of dirty pool. Right. Because you're putting somebody on the spot and that person isn't going to make their best decisions with all those hormones raging at that point in time.

Because I'm assuming you've had fun up to this point and now all of a sudden you know you want to try something um you know if you do want to push a boundary like that you know think about de-escalating the play and letting the blood come back into the brains of of everybody engaged in the in the play session right so that an informed decision can be made right you know not in the heat of the moment um it'll be okay kind of decision because that's really not fair right that that's just playing dirty pool and and those are the types of situations where um the next morning you just kind of regret it yeah and you listen to, you know, have there been any other red flags during that play experience?

You know, have you talked about your boundaries? You know, is your body responding positively to this person? You know, all of this is going on at one time. And somebody may, even though you've talked about boundaries and and you talked about soft swap if somebody uh says can we full swap that person may think even though they're wrong that oh i'm gonna ask consent this is what you're supposed to do but no we already had that conversation so this is not about consent you're pressuring me right now i mean mean, that happened to us at a house party years ago. Yeah.

And I didn't, for whatever reason, it made me mad. Yeah. And that, yeah, that was like game over.

Well, it made you mad because when, well, first of all, there's a couple of different different scenarios here the one you're talking about we had agreed to soft swap but i don't think i was i was in the restroom when that conversation occurred you were and when and when we started playing the other gentleman is the one who popped up and said hey do you guys want a full swap and i popped up and looked at you and said what do you think well that was putting you on the spot right because you had already said soft swap right so that was you know i didn't bring it up it was bad on me because i gave the wrong answer right and you didn't say hey that's a great idea you you did defer to me yeah um but yeah that you said no yeah i did i said honey we agreed to be a soft swap couple tonight and i think i was gnashing my teeth when i said it okay yeah but you know that guy he yeah that wasn't right yeah to do that yeah and and lastly um are you feeling pressured into saying yes like and that pressure could be over, it could be intentional, or it could be just pressure that you're putting on yourself.

So if you're giving a yes, and it has something to do with you feeling pressured to do so, then that's maybe not what you should say or that you really want to say. Yeah.

So using the word but you're not following through so the point here is that a lot of people who are verbal they hear a yes but really you didn't want to say yes but because you did say yes i'm i'm going forward and i'm not paying much attention to your body language because i just got a yes yeah so yeah and that can end up in a pretty bad ending you know correct people get hurt that way and and then they end up not wanting to try again because they think every experience is going to be like that that they're going to constantly get pushed out of their comfort zones yeah and the other thing about it is um hearing a yes but sensing a no and i think we talked about this a little bit earlier when Thank you.

pushed out of their comfort zones yeah and the other thing about it is um hearing a yes but sensing a no and i think we talked about this a little bit earlier when we were talking about body language too like when somebody says yes you may do that and then i start doing that and their body language changes then you know if you're the type if you're with the if you're with a person that picks up on body language, that's good because like me, I'm going to say, wait a minute, something's not right here. Is there a misunderstanding? Am I doing this wrong?

And then so typically I'll say, does this feel okay? Or why don't you tell me exactly what you want me to do?

do yeah or do you want to try something else right yeah yeah so this say hearing somebody say yes and then but you sense that they really um maybe it's a no right i mean it goes back to just just look at their body look at their posture you know if they're not relaxed and you know responding to whatever physical activity you're engaging in at that point in time you know then that's not a yes right and another thing you can do is just slow things down yeah because when you're new to this man this stuff it's it happens fast and it's overwhelming and it's like everything is moving really quickly if you're new to this, and you've never done this before.

So slowing down is actually a good thing, because you can, your breathing can slow down, you can gather your senses about yourself, and then you can start exploring a little bit slowly, you know, to make sure you didn't misunderstand something.

Right, or just, you know, actually have a conversation a conversation and you know i i don't want to give the impression that you know you can't change you know change your mind with on things midstream absolutely because we've done that before and it's really worked out well yeah you know and and i think um but i just think there needs to be some sort of regrouping just to make sure that everybody is like truly on board you know everybody has their faculties you know you don't have to like stop and put your clothes back on right you need to let everybody kind of get a chance to catch their breath and and then just make sure like look somebody in the eye and say would you be okay if we tried this yes you know so that but again that's that's asking for consent midstream yeah or you got to say hey i need some feedback here yeah because if i go down on a woman and i you know some women within a couple of minutes they're having an orgasm and then others maybe there's not going to be one and at some point in time i need Thank you.

And I, you know, some women within a couple of minutes, they're having an orgasm and then others, maybe there's not going to be one. And at some point in time, I need somebody to knock on the top of my head because I'm, I'm not goal oriented, but I'm a people pleaser. And I want to, if, if something's not happening, I'm thinking, what am I doing wrong? You know, and that would be a good time to like knock on the top of my head and say, it's okay.

Um, I don't usually orgasm through oral sex you know so that you know that yes you can go down on me but then there needs to be some feedback and conversation along with that um and you know another another clue is that did the yes come from the other partner? Like when, like when you asked to do something and the husband says, oh yeah, she really likes that. Yeah. Like, well, we really need to hear it from her. You know, we haven't had that happen to us in a while, but it seemed like we went through, it was kind of at the beginning.

We, we ran into a couple couples relatively close to each other where he would like try to completely speak for her every time like she didn't have a voice or a mind you know she didn't have like a a say right in what was going to be done like she was just a puppet or something and i didn't like that right and you know where you know i just thought of something that maybe I'm guilty of doing this myself. It's when you get your strap on out or you say something to the other woman about, hey, have you ever used a double dildo?

And what typically happens is me and the other guy, we start jumping up and down. We're like, oh, yeah, yeah, we want to see this and then i'm thinking the poor woman is now she's on the spot she's on the spot because we're jumping up and down acting like teenagers and you've you know put an invitation out there so i'm as much as i try not to get overly excited well and i try not to put the woman on i try to kind of get a sense for whether she's going to be open to that before I ask. Right. Because I know that she's going to be put on the spot for sure. Right. Do I always get it right?

I don't know. Yeah. You know, I've never gotten any feedback. Like, you know, like maybe, you know, that I wasn't really ready for that or whatever. So I, you know, I guess I try my best. Well, you know what it is with you, honey? You're, you're very good at making other people feel comfortable. Like when you get your toy bag out and you say, you know what I got in here? Have you ever used one of these before? And then if they say no, um, you'd say, well, um, do you want to try it? And this is what it's like.

And, and, you know, I'd be happy to, you know, to show you and the guys can, you know, help us by doing this. And you, you kind of make it an easy yes for somebody who maybe hasn't done that before. Either that or I'm just really good at talking people into things. I don't know, But honestly, at the end of the day, it becomes up to that woman to give her self-consent. She has to use her words at some point and say, you know, I'm not really interested in trying that or I'm not ready for that. So at that point in time in her court, but she, and she's going to have to respond. Yeah.

And if she feels put on the spot, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the third type of consent that we want, that we wanted to talk about. The first was verbal. The second was nonverbal and body language. And the third was giving yourself, are you being honest with yourself? Um, and are you putting yourself in a position where you're going to possibly be uncomfortable with the lifestyle, like a consent issue? And I mean, um, well, like we're going to desire next week, right? Right. I mean, you're going to a resort, you're paying a lot of money. It's clothing optional.

You're going to be in a pool or a hot tub with a lot of naked people. There are people there who are going to be in the lifestyle and some who are not. If you're choosing to go there, you're putting, you're going to be putting yourself in an environment where there's an opportunity for a consent issue to arise. Right. And I think it's a big mistake for us to think that everyone out there is going to be a gentleman. They're going to be a lady. They understand consent. They're going to read my body language. They're going to ask first because you're going to be disappointed.

Well, the vast majority of the people are going to be polite and ask for consent. There's always one. I mean, we joke about it, and it pretty much happens every time. However, I think the point you're trying to make is if you're putting yourself in that environment by choosing to go to a club or a sexy resort or whatever, you have to be prepared to stand up for yourself. And you have to be prepared to explain yourself. You know, in my culture, you know, we don't kiss, you know, or we don't hug when we first meet somebody. Right. And you just have to explain that.

I'd be like, oh, my gosh, okay, I'm so sorry. You know, because I'm a hugger. And I don't even, we've been to Desire so many times. I hug people naked all the time and I don't even think about it. It's not sexual for me, it's just affection. I know, but here's the thing that bothers me and this is how I handle it. Like the whole ping pong ball game. When you're in the hot tub and people start throwing the ping pong balls that says, you know, go kiss this person or do this. Right. That's a huge consent issue for me. So I don't even, I don't even play the game.

And I know that people think I'm a snob because I don't want to play that game. Oh, you're a snot about it. But, but I don't want to, I don't. No. But you're right. Let me, let me, I'm, I'm trying to get to your point about i know myself and I know I'm getting into that hot tub and I see that bucket of ping pong balls over there. So I'm taking responsibility for the fact that I am going to have to deal with that. That's my issue. And earlier we were talking about the bubble, the barrier, the getting close to somebody.

I don't want to pick up a ping pong ball and then walk six feet across the hot tub and touch a woman's boobs that I haven't even talked with before. Because that's a huge consent issue for me. So what do I do? I choose not to play the game because I don't want to be put into that situation.

So that's what I'm saying, whether it's speed dating or the ping pong ball game or whatever the what is it the darts the uh oh the kinky darts well that's with your own partner so that doesn't really count but but putting you know you're going to be putting yourself in a situation where consent is gonna have to come up you need to understand and prepare for that that's that's what i'm saying and if you think that everybody's going to handle it like you want them to most of the times it's okay but but to have an expectation that everyone is going to sense what you need and give you that that's a little bit naive well right and and it's up to each us to, to communicate what we want or need from other people using both our words and our body language.

Right. You know, and then I think you can go and have a good time.

But again, if you've had some sort of situation in your past where you know that you're very vulnerable in certain situations, be aware of that yeah um it's not somebody else's fault that they they touch you in a certain way um that they think is innocent yeah you know it you know and it's unfortunate on on both ends because the person feels like they've done something wrong when you know technically, technically they haven't, but because you responded negatively, you know, they're confused and now, you know, you're hurt because this keeps bubbling back up to the top.

Yeah, and, you know, we're in a strange situation as podcasters and somebody very smartly mentioned to me lately or recently that she was observing us at an event and she was observing other women with me and she made the point what she said you know I didn't think of this before but so many people know you they know so much about you but you don't know anything about them and it's awkward because sometimes there's sometimes there are people that say we're just like you so we know you're gonna like us and and we have to deal with that as and we don't get you and i we're playing catch up yeah but but i want to ask you a question because i just thought of this and you and i have never talked about this before when we go and meet a couple and and typically it's a couple that we've communicated with before or maybe in our community um and when we greet them for the first time you normally like put your chin up and and pack the guy on the lips uh not normally on the lips it's more of a just okay just on the side yeah we'll see we'll see I lose sight of you once you go you know yeah I'm so short but I always hug and that so my question is I wonder if it's the woman who who um sets the tone there no I don't know that's a good question yeah because my default setting is if i have never met you before um i and i mean i'm a hugger so i'll hug guys too but if it's it's the first time i've met a guy i i hold out my hand and if it's a woman i i especially if they know who we are i observe her i watch to see if she wants a hug and if she wants a hug I'll hug her but I don't I'm not the one that makes the first move because I think if I've never met you before it's a little creepy for me to just assume it's okay to hug you but but normally I can tell by their body language and then and then I'll hug them but I never like kiss a woman on the lips or most of the times not even on a cheek if I've never met her before.

Oh, I always kiss people on the cheek. Yeah, and I know that's why I observe that as a difference. Well, lifestyle people, I guess I would say that. Yeah. Not a potential business associator. But I think my point is that you and I have a system down. And so we've been doing this for a while. So as a couple, we know how to manage that. And so the point I'm trying to make is that whether you've never done this before or whether you've been in the lifestyle for a while, you and your partner should have a game plan for consent. Yeah, that's a good point.

And talk with each other about what offends you or what makes you uncomfortable or how you want to be introduced to somebody, because maybe your spouse can help clear those hurdles for you. Maybe, you know, working together, you know, it's a lot more, it's a lot less frightening, maybe, or intimidating to be together. So, you know, work as a team to come up with a plan about if you're going to meet a couple, how are you going to introduce yourselves? Because that's really, you only get a chance to do that one time. And it can be creepy. Right. Or it can be pretty sexy. Yeah, that's true.

Now, you know, speaking of the creepy part. Yeah. Like, here's one thing that we haven't really, we've skimmed over this a lot tonight. You know, what happens when you don't give consent and that person doesn't respect that? Okay, the first thing that we need to say is we're not talking about anything illegal or anything. So let's just say that. Right. We're talking about boundaries that get pushed without consent, let's say. Well, the first obvious answer there is stop.

right you know hopefully your partner's in the same room with you and you can just sit up like like when we were talking earlier when we were at that house party and the guy asked if we could full swap and i said what do you think and you looked at me and you said um no i mean i didn't even i my shivers went up my spine because you looked at me it was a death stare so if somebody's taking a liberty with you or somebody's not respecting you and you sat up because after you did that like i lost my erection i was done for the evening because i went into like horrible i went into defensive mode because you were it's like you were in distress he well he he didn't i know he asked i know he asked but but i didn't we've had worse happen i thought something might have happened the way that you were you were speaking to me right because we had had something worse happen before but that's my point if you're especially if you're a female and you're you're feeling vulnerable and somebody is crossed a line with you, you have a lifeline right there on the bed with you, hopefully, or in the same room.

So again, working as a team, like, um, I need to go back to my husband. Now, if a woman says that in the middle of play, everything normally stops. Now, if I say, hey, it's, I to go that's i think i want to go back and fuck my wife that's a different thing but when somebody says i need to go back to my husband like alarmingly yeah so that would be my recommendation if there's something that's happened even if it's a misunderstanding you can talk about it later but i want to go back to home base. Right, right.

Yeah, I think that laying there and taking it you know whatever it is whether it's a soft swap to full swap situation or some other form of play that that you're not comfortable with and that you didn't agree to ahead of time um you know it it's not going to get better. Well, you need to stop it. Okay. Well, let's talk about the, what if I don't ask for my husband? What if I just put up with that? Then you start to feel guilty, right? Because you're like, I should have stopped that. And I didn't.

Now you're, now you're feeling guilty and you're angry at yourself and you're really mad at the other guy. Yeah. And, and I did not feel very good about myself the next day when that happened to us that one time. Thank you. And you're really mad at the other guy. Yeah, and I did not feel very good about myself the next day when that happened to us that one time. Yeah, somehow his misunderstanding, or no, he didn't misunderstand. He changed his mind.

His decision to not respect my boundary ended up making me feel bad about myself right you know that's ridiculous right but it happened right so so what do you do i mean you don't keep it to yourself because if if you're on your side of the bed and i'm on my side of the bed it could be going on and i might not even know and we might leave and you might huff out of there and i'm like what's what's going on right you know you have to be able to talk about it you can't just push it under the rug right that's not going to be the healthy long-term solution for sure right so debriefing with your spouse or your partner you know is the first thing that you need to do yeah and come up with a strategy to to keep it from happening again and i think that's what you were referring to earlier when, you know, you need to do.

Yeah, and come up with a strategy to keep it from happening again. And I think that's what you were referring to earlier when you need to have a discussion about consent and what types of situations could arise where you're not going to want to give consent. And I think the last answer on this is one that I don't even know that we would do this. So it's probably rare, but it's certainly a possibility. And that is to have a follow-up conversation with the couple or the individual. That's hard to do. I know it's hard, but... You know, we did kind of do that once.

And luckily, we've only had a very small handful of negative experiences. And I think out of all of those, we've only talked to the other couple once about it yeah yeah that was a long time ago right i mean the easiest thing to do is to well you know i guess it depends on how did it trigger something in you um like because if it like was your attitude like ah that was a mistake i'll just go take a shower and live and learn. Or did something happen that really caused an emotional response from you? And those are two completely different types of responses.

And I think your response was more, well, geez, you were mad about it, but, you know, you picked yourself up and, you know, we went on and learned. Yeah, that's true. But, but again, he didn't end up doing anything I didn't want him to do. I just felt like he disrespected me. Right. You know, but I guess in the defense of the other person, you can't always assume that that other person intended to do something wrong.

They could just be really ignorant and, or let's just say, well, selfish in the heat of the moment or naive, maybe they're not good maybe they don't have high emotional intelligence and they really can't pick up on body language and you know if they understood your yes to mean like a green light all the way home you know um maybe they're just kind of like a blockhead yeah and and didn't really understand that they were crossing a line that you thought had agreed to not be crossed.

Yeah, it's hard not to get upset with the people because you're my most treasured possession, and if somebody disrespects you... I'm your possession? Yes.

What millennium are we in my dear all right uh what what's the right word you you tell me i don't know i you my mind is blown now i can't even think of anything um i'm the most important person in the world to you you're the most important person in the world to me there you go and if somebody um disrespects you then i i am i'm as your husband i my first response is that fight or flight you know that i've got to defend you and your honor and all that stuff right so it's really hard for me to feel sorry for somebody or it's really hard for me to give somebody the benefit of the doubt and at that point in time i think we would probably just leave and never correspond with them again right you know but there is always if especially if it's somebody that you know or maybe even a friend or somebody you've played with before and there's more more at stake than just walking away, you know, maybe there is an opportunity to say, that's true.

Hey, we need to talk about this because something happened that really bothered us and we, we need you guys to know about it and let's talk about it. So that, that's a possibility. Um, but that's a really tough thing to do. Yep. For sure. Okay. Wow, that was heavy. Yeah. Well, I think the bottom line here is consent is a whole lot more complex than just a verbal yes or no. And it's easy to sit here in front of a microphone and cast stones at people and say, this is how you should be. And I can't believe people are like this. And you know, but the reality of it is, is it's not a simple thing.

And, and human beings are complex. And we're talking about interacting with at least two other people who have a relationship. And then there's four way connections.

There's, there's so much going on here that it's not a simple yes or it's not a simple no right and and at the you know the bottom line is you know as long as you're intending to do no harm um there could be some blunders yeah um it's never you know it it's it's hard to get it all right because like you said there's so many moving parts and and so many nerves and i mean you got four people in uncharted territory yeah you know if you're talking about two couples playing together yeah and you know and i'm sitting here thinking about um single people in the lifestyle like oh my gosh that i'm just sitting here in awe of them thinking they have to navigate all of this alone they don't have a wingman right um whether it's a man or a woman i mean we always think about you know the women being vulnerable but you know a man can be just as vulnerable and end up you know in a really awkward, awful situation.

You know, they really put themselves out there. Well, okay, I know we're about to close, but you just brought up something that I hadn't thought of. I don't know, I think sometimes women are a lot more forward with me than men are with you when it comes to consent. Oh, we just talked about that a couple episodes ago. Yeah.

So I think women need to keep that in mind um look i'm a i'm a easygoing guy and and i love to meet you but your first move shouldn't be like between my legs and and you know but i'm the type of person that and i'm blessed to have lived the life and being brought up by the family that I, you know, that I, there's no triggers, you know, there's nothing in my background that where it's really going to emotionally bother me, but I just shake my head and kind of step away, you know, but, you know, you have to think about that. Yeah. So we got it all figured out, right?

Well it it looks really good on paper um in the heat of the moment it can be a challenge yeah um just you know just try to be a good person and just be aware of the other people and what they're what you know what's going on in their head yeah yeah and as long as you go into it with that attitude you know a little misstep shouldn't be a deal breaker. Yeah.

So go in with a plan, understand that you're going to be put, you're putting yourself in the situation, uh, have a, have a, an escape word, you know, like I want to be, I need to be with my husband, you know, if nothing else, you can blurt that out. Yeah.

Um, and then make sure you're debriefing to understand exactly what happened afterwards and and then live and learn i mean you know you're not going to necessarily we're not talking about forgiving the other person or or taking the person the other person does something wrong they certainly need to share that responsibility but we can learn from it we can move forward and say, okay, next time we're in that situation, here's what we're going to do. Yeah. And hopefully get better at it as you go along. Definitely. All right. It's time to talk about something.

We'll lighten stuff up in the next segment. All right. Well, we'll, we definitely had consent. At least I did for my snapshot. Oh, I'm pretty sure I did too. Yeah. Okay. Can't wait to hear it. It was some sexy fun. We'll be right back. Well, we definitely had consent, at least I did, for my snapshot. Oh, I'm pretty sure I did, too. Yeah. Okay. Can't wait to hear it. It was some sexy fun. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Snapshots. Finally. This is going to be a little more fun. Can I go first? Sure.

This is actually a snapshot that happened a few months ago, but I had too many snapshots last time and I couldn't squeeze it in. We were with our friends that we had played with before. We were in a hotel and the four of us were on the bed. And this woman is very demonstrative. She's very, she tells you what she likes. She's very good with verbal. She is verbal, yeah. And she is very creative also. So all of a sudden she says to me, get up. I said, oh, okay. We get up out of the bed. She says, come over here. There was a mirror in the hotel room on the wall. Like a full-length mirror.

A full-length mirror. And she grabbed the chair and she turned the chair around and she put her hands on the back of the chair. And she said, I want you to fuck me from behind and I want you to watch in the mirror. And I said, yes, ma'am.

and not only did i watch but she was watching and we were watching you were watching yes and we had the whole bed ourselves so we were like woohoo and then we got to watch you at the same time that was that was really hot yes so to be with a woman who's first of all she's really intelligent she's really beautiful um but but to be with somebody who's very clear in their communication not only is there a lot of consent but there's a lot of this is really what i want to do yeah that's really sexy yep and so we did we had sex standing up i was in her from behind and we were looking at ourselves in the mirror.

Yeah, that was hot. Quite a snapshot. Yes. It was a snapshot for her husband and I, too. All right. We'll see if you can top that one. Well, mine's kind of different. This was from a little while ago as well. We have a lot of people come into town and hang out with us. We either go up into D.C., let's say, and go to hotels or whatever, but we also have people come to our home. So we're used to entertaining people in our home. However, we had the chance to go out of town and actually visit friends of ours in their home. And we don't do that very often.

And we went out to dinner with this couple. We had a lovely dinner. We're really good friends with them and we've known them for a while now. So the dinner was just really easy. And then they took us back to their home and we had a cocktail and we got a tour of their house and we got to meet their puppy and, you know, it was just, it was so normal. Like we're hanging out with their dog and, and having cocktails and, and touring their house. And then we got to play with them and we actually played with them in their master bedroom. Yeah.

In their and i don't know like we don't do that very often so that was like ridiculously hot for me because it was intimate they were sharing they were sharing their their like real lives with us um they shared their with us, you know, and we got to have sex with them in their bed. And, um, I mean, gosh, there's both so ridiculously attractive and sweet and nice and funny and sexy and, and you name it that certainly didn't help the situation or hurt the situation, but just, I don't know, it was just so much fun.

And I remember looking over at you with her, and I don't know, I just felt very, very connected that night. Because they let us into their inner sanctuary. Yes. Yeah, because in our house we have a basement, and we have a playroom downstairs, and downstairs and that's where the play occurs yeah we really don't play with people in our own bedroom yeah and if i recall that transition from touring the house and having a drink back to their kitchen the sexiness happened pretty quickly yeah that transition was pretty easy i remember coming up behind her and putting my arms around her.

And then like about five minutes later, we were making out. And then the next thing I know, we were in their bedroom. Yeah. Yeah, that was a pretty hot and heavy sex. That was. Yeah. And he's got this like gorgeous smile. And that's what I remember i i think i was on top and just looking down at him and and you know their headboard behind us and and his beautiful wife and you next to me and and just his face with this like gorgeous smile and like oh my goodness yeah it was very intimate i think that's what you're saying it was very intimate because they allowed you they Yes. Yeah.

And, you know, again, I think that that's the beauty of the lifestyle.

And that's what if you can power through this whole consent issue, because that's it's awkward and it's, you know, you're unsure when you first meet a couple like this whole consent thing is like really like uncharted territory but if you can get through that with a couple and and make that elusive four-way connection and then you end up in this intimate setting with them um it was so easy yeah and it's so hot and and at the same time it's it's hot but it's I don't know, I don't want to sound stupid or sappy or whatever, but I just felt really, you know, like comfortable and emotionally safe.

Yeah. Like all of that consent crap has been put to bed. Well, I mean, consent is mostly important with people that you're playing with for the first or second time. Right, right. And I'm saying. And this've we've been played with for a few times if you invest the energy correct to work that out correct then you get to the point where consent isn't weighing heavy on your heart and your mind right and and you can let your head out of the game a little bit very good so you tied a snapshot in with the topic i did pretty hot i didn't hot. I didn't even mean to do that. So I know.

Gosh, let's wrap up 69. Please join us on Cassidy or Double Date Nation. If you go to our website, you can join either one of those sites and get 90 days for free. We also have a We Gotta Think membership. And if you're going to go to Austin with us, you know, you'll go to our website right now. It's open to members and it's a hot commodity right now. It's exciting. The next we have podcast Palooza next May. There's information on our website about that in Miami. We'd love for you to join us there. That's more than half full, I believe, now.

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That Valentine's Day suite in the mansion at Desire is still available ah that's coming up i know somebody's got to snag that thing i know we've got a couple people in there before then and after that but if you want that valentine's day week let us know that's right so thanks for listening we are mr and mrs j, and we... Excuse me. I, you know... Excuse me. You did not just do that. That was really loud in my ear. Oh, Lord, what were we talking about? Bubbles. Yeah, we were talking about bubbles. I know. I jinxed you. Okay.