Episode 146: How Relationships Change Over Time

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey, you teenagers out there. If you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello, everyone. I'm Mr. Jones. And I'm Mrs. Jones. And I'm Kel with Expansive Connection. And we want to welcome you to episode 146 of the We Gotta Thing podcast. Our final podcast of It's a good thing you didn't pause after that final podcast. Yeah, true. Leave everybody on a cliffhanger. Yeah, a little bit of a cliffhanger. That's right. Final episode of 2025. Yes, and we are happy to share that with Kel from Expansive Connection. We're happy that the relationship with Expansive Connection and We Got a Thing has continued and we're actually moving into 2026 together. We were just chatting about that with Kel before we started to record. We have some really exciting things ahead. But anyway, we'll talk more about that later. Welcome back, Kel. And just in case there's somebody out there that doesn't know who you are, if you'll introduce yourself and maybe a little bit about Expansive Connection, that'd be a great way to start. Sure. Always happy to do that. I'm Kel, and I'm one of the now five coaches with Expansive Connection. And we are a group of lifestyle coaches. is that every single one of us is a trained practitioner. We have licensed therapists, we have master of social work, and we have lots of certifications amongst us. So we're all trained in counseling and coaching, but we are also all participating in non-monogamy in some way, shape, or form. And so what that does is gives us a unique perspective when we work with people in this community, interested in this community, thinking about this venture with their love life or with their marriages or their partnerships. And so that's what we do. We work with people on an individual basis. We'll have a chance to talk at the end about what's coming down the road for Expansive Connection. But what do you have? What's on your calendar? Are you ready for the holidays? Any travel in your plans? Yeah, of course, I'm always ready for the holidays. I'm a holiday girl. I'm known for my festive wear, my husband's festive wear. We like to represent the season of the year. But yeah, my house is all decorated and presents are under the tree. So I'm excited about that. And I'm looking forward to the new year. I get really kind of, you know, it's like new calendar and it's like first day of school. Mrs. Jones, like, you know, I love that energy of the new pencils and, you know, get a calendar and get an agenda and it's all blank and, you know, beautiful. And so I love the new year. I love restarts and the ability to kind of turn the page and start fresh. So I'm really excited about the new year. And yeah, we've got a couple of fun trips ahead and, you know, just some kid stuff and mixed with fun, sexy stuff, mixed with work stuff. That's usually my agenda every year. So I know I like it when it gets all mixed up, you know, that you don't just get hyper focused on one, like one aspect of your life. But I have to, I have to go back to something you just said. So your husband does festive wear as well during the holidays. He has lots of fun shirts. Mr. Jones has been a of my husband's fashionista ways. We've got Halloween shirts, and we've got Thanksgiving shirts, and we've got Christmas shirts, and we've got Valentine's, and Mardi Gras, and Easter, and all the things. He's got a great sleeveless USA all the way, tank top he wears for the 4th of July. We like to rock out for the holidays. We were at a brewery last weekend, and this young family walked in, and this guy was probably like, I don't know, I don't know he was in his 30s he was a very handsome dude and he had on like a short sleeve button-down shirt and it was a black shirt but it had Santa Claus faces on it but it was kind of understated like it wasn't like bright green or bright red you know it was a nice black button-down shirt and I'm like Mr. Jones I what would you wear that shirt that's a really cool shirt and I mean y'all can't see him but he's like shaking his head ruefully right now nope like oh my gosh put yourself out there I'm gonna have a partner that's gonna wear festive shirts with me yeah i like i love a matching outfit yes yeah well i wanted to go ask him if he was wearing that on his own volition or you know was his wife leveraging something over him you know i always i'm always suspicious of of guys who match with their wife and their kids and their dog as they're out walking as to whether they're doing this man was willfully well i know that but that didn't have anything to do you can tell he was a well-dressed man no matter what i I think there was some coercion. Oh, whatever. That's all I'm saying. Either way, Mrs. Jones thought he looked great. So. Yes. Yeah. And please don't come. And I'm sure your husband does as well. Well, I was going to say, don't compare me to her husband because he rocks it. I mean, he, he, you can tell when he wears it, he's confident and he wants people to ask him about it. I know. I like that about him. Yeah. Yeah. He does. He does love some fashion. So. All right. Well, the, the topic at hand, we, boy, over the past few months, we've talked about with Catherine and her marriage ending and talking about some really emotional and deep stuff. And of course, we are friends with Catherine and we know what she's been through. And those two episodes were a little bit emotionally draining for the two of us. For all of us, yes. And I know for Catherine too. So this month, Kel, we're talking about relationships again, but I think it's fascinating the way that you posed this. So rather than me butcher it, why don't you talk to the folks about what the topic is going to be this episode? Absolutely. Absolutely. So our topic today is about transitions and relationships. And I would have really wanted to talk and kind of to piggyback off of the two conversations that you had with Catherine that were so beautiful and so vulnerable. And we got so much great feedback at Expensive Connection. Catherine, I can speak on her behalf, was so grateful for the outpouring of support and kind words and Me Too stories. that she got from people all over that have been listening to the podcast and also in your amazing community. And I think that what I felt like was there's a few things that maybe just still could be said about this idea that her marriage, like a lot of marriages, didn't survive its last iteration of marriage in this. And so I really wanted just to kind of jump off of that conversation and talk about the fact that relationships are not static and that change is inevitable. And so what do we do about that? and what does that look like? And what does it look like in marriage? But then also we have a unique, you know, ability to talk about other relationships besides those that are married that are also intimate and close. And those are relationships in the lifestyle. And so what does it look like for relationships in the lifestyle to change, to transition, to change and be different? And so I think there's a lot of fear and fight about that in both buckets, whether you are just in a long-term marriage that is monogamous and closed, whether you're in a marriage that's in non-monogamy or whether you have a bunch of other relationships through your non-monogamous relationships structure. Any change in any of those tends to send people off in a tailspin. And I think maybe we could have some conversations about how that could be maybe not so difficult. And we could sort of see that as a path, not necessarily a bad path. Okay. Yeah, I like the fact that we are talking about how marriages evolve. So I'm not going to give any of it away because I could get ahead of you. But You know, why don't we start with marriages or what primary partner relationships, however you want to describe it, where you have your one and only, allegedly. Yeah. And let's start there. Yeah, for sure. So let's talk about, I think, the fact that there's an amazing quote that Catherine also, if you listen to the episode she had with Catherine the past few months, she quotes the amazing and talented and genius Esther Perel in saying that most people will have two or three marriages. in their lifetime. And some of us will have them all with the same person. And I think Catherine did a great job of talking about how it was just the last iteration of her marriage that failed, not the ones that came before it. And I talk to people and couples all of the time in the coaching chair about the idea that sometimes there are seasons in marriage. Sometimes there are large events that happen in our marriage, you know, big, hard moments that can happen. and they can forever sort of knock our marriage off the course that it was on. So it's sort of like a boat in the water and we're really going on a heading and then suddenly a big storm comes and suddenly we're off that heading. We're going a different direction. And that happens in marriage and in primary partnerships, whether you're legally married or you're together for 20 years. The idea that this marriage is exactly the same as it was as in people get married in their teens, late teens and 20s and early 30s. And then they're turning around in their 50s and maybe early 30s. and saying, well, gee, this doesn't seem the same. Well, thank God it's not the same because none of the people in the relationship are the same. And so I think just recognizing whether your marriage comes to a close and ends, you know, comes full circle to just be completed and that means it doesn't continue until one of us, you know, is no longer on this earth or not, it is not going to be just the same state for 40, 50 years. And even if it is, you know, I don't know that that's even a good thing. There's lots of wonderful conversations that people had about how we praise the 50-year marriage. And, you know, we have parties and we have celebrations and, you know, all of these things. And sometimes that's not necessarily something to be praised. I mean, I've known some people that were married a really long time and they were absolutely miserable and couldn't stand each other. And yet they were being praised for longevity but not necessarily health and beauty. Yeah. When we, of course, we've been married over 40 years now. And this is Joan's uses this phrase a lot. You say we kind of grew up together. Yeah. Because we got married when we were 21 and 22. And what the heck do you know when you're 21 and 22? And I think if we were to describe the changes, sometimes the changes are brought about by children, careers, things not necessarily outside of our control, but things that we've chosen to do in life that compete with our relationship. And so sometimes we are concentrating on being parents. Sometimes we are concentrating on a career, then family and friends, and you're dividing yourself up so much that a lot of times what gets lost is that core connection that you had when you meet. And so understanding that you do have a choice when it comes to paying attention to that part of your relationship. I don't know, did you want to, is that how you think about it? Well, I think we're like on the third iteration of our marriage. You know, we had the raising kids and honestly getting to know each other phase. And then we had our emptiness sexual evolution phase. And then, you know, and then we got in the lifestyle and this has certainly changed our marriage of course absolutely yeah so and who knows where we're headed from here yeah and i think that's a beautiful thing that people probably know intuitively but have not put language to you know often challenge couples to say look back and tell me where these sort of you know again course correction for better for worse you know you've you've made it so obviously you were able to to succeed through that. But where are they? And I think most people, you know, we've been married over 25 years and we definitely feel like we're probably in the third iteration of our marriage. And I'll say some of the shifts were from very rocky places. We didn't shift, you know, change doesn't always come just because things are going great. That's not normally what produces change in people, right? And so normally change happens when things are not going well at all. And we kind of come to this place where our brain does this math and it goes, well, it's going to be more painful to stick with this versus go to this new hard. And finally, it shifts to the new hard. And so I think that there are so many of us who, once we start to think about it, have had many marriages, have been in different marriages just within the same relationship. Now, let's talk about the fact that a lot of people listening are not in the same marriage with the same person. You know, the fact that marriages do end and the fact that some marriages are not, they're not able to do that shift that you you guys talked about how beautifully you had done and face these different stages of life and do it with this mindset or both people being willing to come at it with, okay, let's look at this with new energy and new eyes. And, you know, we do live in an environment where marriage still continues to have about a 50% success rate. And that's not great. You know, I can tell you right now, if airplane travel was 50% landing and 50% crashing, you'd never see this girl get on a plane. You got that right. We have people signing up for marriage left and right still. So we want to roll the dice. and we want to go into these spaces. We know they continue to not have the best, again, if we make success mean that they last until death, then they don't have a great success rate. I do think it's interesting to just pause for a minute and think about kind of what's happening with divorce right now. Because I think it's interesting to have conversations, especially Mrs. Jones, you mentioned sort of you guys have been in the sexy empty nest phase. Well, I will say for a lot of people, the empty nest phase is coming with a lot of divorce. So right now, there's This amazing statistical information is coming out about something that if anybody is an Oprah fan, she did a podcast and a whole episode about this idea of gray divorce. And so what that means is that for people who are over, the most divorces that are happening in this country right now are people over 50 years old. And that is 40% of every divorce that happens is someone who's over 50. And 70% of those are initiated by women. So we have conditions where even though less people are getting married, statistically. And people that are getting married are tending to be people who really go into it with this idea, I want this to last forever. And they think they're wiser and older. You know, what older and wiser may be, you're getting married later in life. They're coming from divorced households, which didn't happen three or four generations ago. We still are seeing a tremendous amount of people who are coming to marriage, especially after 50, and just saying, I don't want to be here anymore. And most of those who are making that decision are women. And so I think it's just a great And what people are saying is that why women are initiating a divorce so often, especially in that age group, is that they have financial freedom. There is not this bargain where I am a woman and I have to be with this man because I can't get a credit card in my name or I can't get rent. I can't take care of myself. Women are in the workforce as much, if not more. They are not earning as much money, but they are earning enough money to take care of themselves. And so they don't have dependency. on another person, especially a man. I think that there is this desire from women for more from marriage. We hear this often. Women are asking men to show up more, more intimate, more emotionally intelligent, more in touch with them, and able to give them more than just, again, a roof over their house and stability. And so that's catching a lot of people in this. Well, if you're not going to be able to show up and be this best friend and be this, you know, soulmate and be this partner and be this encourager. I'll just do it on my own. And then I think also that people are living longer. So, you know, you could be 50 and think, well, gosh, you know, maybe five or six generations ago, you've been like, well, I'm going to live five more years. So let's just stick it out. Well, now you could live 50 more years and 40 of them could be incredibly healthy. And so people are looking at that and going, well, I don't know that I want to be miserable for 40 years. And I think that if throwing numbers out like that, as accurate as they are, some people may hear that and have the impression or the, that's bad. Women shouldn't be asking for divorce. But really, if you do what you were just suggesting, and we look underneath of it, when I think of my mom's generation, and she was just telling us this the other day, she couldn't get her own credit card. You know, she couldn't buy anything without my dad's name on it. You know, she wasn't treated equally in the workforce. And you know, that was just the generation that she grew up in. And because she had this on him, it probably would... No, I mean, they have a really good relationship and they love each other. But when you have that dependency on somebody else to get to a point in your life where you're 20, 25 years in and think that you even have the means to choose to end your marriage, it was a big hurdle and a barrier for, I think, a lot of women to independently think like that. But now, with Mrs. Jones and I, and I look back at our marriage and You know, we both went to school, we both graduated, we both worked, we both at one point cared for the kids. We shared a lot of that responsibility. And so our professional lives were evolving and developing at the same rate. And so when we got to that point where we were empty nesters, she had much more autonomy, you know, than my mom did, you know, in the previous generation. So a lot of it is, I think, a result of some positive change that has happened. You know, I'm not saying divorce is good or bad. I'm just saying that really does help explain why women are in such a better position now to make their own choices, whatever those choices might be. Well, and I think that if I had the opportunity and I was in a loveless marriage, I think you would be less lonely if you were on your own. Sure. I was going to say, I think that piggybacking off that idea, Mr. Jones, look, these are things that are true. You know, again, marriage is in. And no matter, I think sometimes marriage is in, as Catherine, again, just to reference, told us that sometimes that's not always just because of two people deciding. You know, marriage is based on two people. And one person can just say at any moment, I'm out. I don't want to do this anymore. And so I think the fact that a marriage is not or I would say, I hope that marriages are not judged just on their ability to be forever relationships. And I think that this idea that only successful marriages last forever and marriages that end are failures, that's something you hear a lot, their marriage failed. Again, I just want people to be thinking about it in a little bit more nuance, a little less black and white. And I think that the idea that we do not hold any other relationship in our life to this forever sense, other than parent-child. In parent-child, we hope and pray that those are going to be relationships that last until the parent is, you know, passed away. But there's no other relationship that we are, you know, you don't meet a coworker in your 20s and go, well, you're with me until we die. Hope you like me a lot. Like, we understand some relationships are transitory and some friendships and some coworkers and some familiar relationships other than maybe parent-child. You know, everybody's not close with their cousins and doesn't have relationships with their siblings. And I think we're able to hold that with some respect for transitions or respect for people's choices of what's better for them. And I think we still carry a lot of judgment again about marriages being that way. And so I just really want to offer to people that are listening, whether you've gone through a divorce, whether maybe that's going to be the next step for you, that doesn't mean that you are a failure and it doesn't necessarily mean your relationship in its entirety was a failure. And so I just really think that that's important for people to hear and to consider. Now, let's flip that All of us sitting here talking want marriages that are going to last forever. We are very committed to this idea that we want a marriage that lasts our entire lives or our partners' entire lives or both. You know, hopefully we all die sleepy on our front porch rocking as 102-year-olds, you know, watching our grandkids play in the yard. That's my plan. Absolutely. That is still the dream, Mrs. Jones. So I thought, you know, maybe we would kind of end this segment about marriage talking about, well, if I am a person like that, If I'm not in a loveless marriage, as Ms. Jones said some people are, if I'm not a woman who necessarily has the ability to seek freedom and to seek choices and wants to stay, if I'm just happy and I'm like, gosh, you're right, things can change and things aren't static and I better put some time in, I thought maybe we'd talk about what are the things that contribute to lasting marriages? What do we think with our three people as a brain trust that really make marriages last a long time if people want that? Yeah, I think going back to the word change may be a good launching point for that, because the word change is a neutral, subjective word. It could be brought about because of something voluntary or something that's involuntary. So I imagine that there are changes we would consider to be helpful to the continuation or growth of a relationship, and some changes that we would think would be really relationship busters. So I didn't know if you wanted to touch on that at all before we move into that next section. Sure. You know, I think it's an interesting question because I think one person's relationship buster might not be another person's. I think that's going to be really subjective. Let's take infidelity, for example. I've talked to dozens and dozens of couples for whom infidelity is a part of their story. And a lot of them, it was not a relationship buster. And I think sometimes when we get married in our 20s, at least I know for me, I really had this idea that there was just a few things that would make me pack my bags really dramatically. You know, like I grew up with a grandmother who loves soap operas and man, in a great daytime soap opera, those women could leave a room, leave a marriage in the most dramatic fashion. Like, you know, light a cigarette and then throw the lighter behind and burn the house down as they're leaving. Like these were dramatic. when someone did what? Cheated on them. You know, if there was any sort of physical altercation, these were like, well, these are the big, absolutely not. I will forever leave if that happens. And I think as I got older and more mature, I was able to realize that, again, these, you know, to use this idea, Mr. Jones, of these relationship busters, they depended on the person kind of in the people in the space. And for some people, infidelity would be absolutely not. I will never get past this. I will never be able to move forward. For some people, infidelity can be an eye-opening direction header change that really, really creates a better version of their marriage. And so I don't know if it's as easy as, you know, I've seen, I've talked to couples who've had incredible grief through the loss of a child or the loss of a parent at a young age and that end of their marriage. I've talked to other couples who that created a strength that they didn't know they had. So I think it really boils down to how wired for change are you and how open to being the kind of couple who has this faith that we can get through anything if we just stick here a while and go through it. Yeah. Do you want to tell the story, Mrs. Jones, or do you want me to tell the story about the dream you had and how you got upset with yourself? Do you remember? Which dream? Which time? I know. I came home from work one And of course, as a guy, you know, when you walk in the door and you look at your wife's face, you can usually tell what kind of a day that she had. This was early in our marriage. That's my point. This was back to the infidelity. Like you said, I had a dream. You came home from a business trip and I was doing your laundry and I found a pair of women's panties in your luggage. And she said, that's not really what made me mad. What made me mad is, I took you back. I let you get away with that. And I was dumb enough to tell him this at the age of 29 or however old I was. Yeah, but I think also, Kel, to your point, when you're facing something that is maybe more of a negative thing, and you probably, I imagine, and you would know this, I mean, if you're a couple and you want to try to work through that, you're looking at a lot of energy, maybe a lot of money, a lot of time, A lot of effort, a lot of humility. I just wonder if sometimes people just say, well, you know what? I would just rather wipe the slate clean and just kind of start over again. I don't think I have the energy to go through the work. So do you find that there are probably relationships out there that could have survived, but people just didn't want to try to begin with? Of course. Absolutely. I think the amount of... commitment, energy. I think, you know, building back trust is literally that. It is almost like rebuilding, you know, people that have traumatic brain injuries. Science has found all of this ability and all of this amazing, you know, neuroplasticity that our brains can grow new ideas and grow new parts and all of that thing. I think that's a lot like relationships that are damaged. You have to kind of grow a new relationship. And it's not as easy as like putting in some soil and water it once a week and every once in a while you forget, but you went back and it's droopy. No, it's not that simple. It's every day. And so you're right. I think that there are people who kind of get into these situations and I might argue there wasn't enough there there to make that effort worth it. Like it was like, well, you know, again, no, one's going to say this quite as bluntly, but this was a mediocre marriage anyway. And so what am I going to do? Spend the next six months, a year, forgiving this person and working in therapy and going through all our childhood trauma and how we got here and our patterns and our attachment styles just for a mediocre marriage. And so sure, I wouldn't blame someone that just didn't feel like they wanted to stick it for that kind of marriage. Right. Okay. Now, I'm sorry to interrupt. I'll let you go back to where you were taking us. Absolutely. So let's take this to, I guess, more of a, if we're thinking about change, I guess maybe I would look at these this list is very short of of things that either I'm gonna feel like wow I'm really nurturing kind of to go to that like the work and the commitment am I working and am I committed in these areas and if I'm not well great wonderful you can go and have some homework after you listen to this podcast and talk to your partner and figure out how you could work on this how could you create these kind of situations so one of the one of the things I want to start with is something in very passing and listening to your conversation with Katherine, she mentioned. And it was this idea that we had a woman reach out to her that had listened to your podcast. And she was actually, I think, a therapist herself. And she was doing a lot of research about couples. And what she was finding was there was a very, very strong connection to people who were in long-lasting, we would consider extremely successful, extremely life-giving marriages, had a very strong romantic and sexual connection. connection. And so when Catherine kind of talked about her story with Ray, one of the things she mentioned is that she didn't really have a very strong romantic and sexual connection with Ray early on. And that was fine with her. She wasn't looking for that. And, you know, following up to that, whether or not that was a contributor, I'm not sure. But what researchers are saying is that that through line, we have a lot of romantic energy. So think of romantic energy as all the lovey-dovey attentiveness, the care, the concern, but that's more more than you would a friend. It's this above friendship level affection. And then, of course, our sexual connection is just hot sex and making sex a priority. So Emily Nagowski is an amazing author. She wrote, Come As You Are and Come Together. She's also a sex researcher. And she says that prioritization of good sex creates this protective space for the relationship to live in. So I like to imagine that when we invest in our romantic and sexual connection. We are like building this cocoon around our marriage. And what's inside the cocoon is this deep connection. It is this, this pull to this person that makes me want to stick, you know, to that idea of a mediocre marriage. You're not going to have a lot of mediocre marriages that have a tremendous amount of romance and a lot of great sex. And so I think that is a place that couples that have been able to have that luckily right out of the gate, but couples that have nurtured it or tried to create it or have done things to make that a priority are really setting themselves up for a long-lasting marriage i think what i'm thinking of as you're describing that is you know like when we have like some crazy kinky sex like you can't just talk to anybody about that you know even like you're like your best girlfriend i mean even and i'm talking like just normal like not lifestyle sex just good sex between mr jones and i like i i really don't I don't have a girlfriend. I can go into the nitty-gritty details of that with. I can say, we had a lot of fun last night and just kind of leave it there. That's kind of our dirty little secret. Air quotes, dirty little secret. I like having that. That creates this connection that I have with Mr. Jones that I don't have with anybody else. I kind of think that that is some pretty strong glue. I would agree. I think it is. I love that idea, Mrs. Jones. It is a glue. And I think that there's a safety that is created. Again, thinking about it, I like to think about it like this cocoon. A cocoon is a safe place for this caterpillar to do all of this work to become a butterfly. There is safety in that. There is something that bonds you, that makes you feel like, wow, this relationship is, it's something else. And that something else is this romance and this sexual energy. Like, yeah, it's not, you know, a person you've been friends with forever that is an amazing friendship. And there's strong trust. And there's a lot of maybe the other things we're going to talk about that are on this list, but not that one piece. So I think that's a great, a great way to say it for sure. Another part of, I think, long-lasting marriage as a contribution to that is a really strong trusting friendship. So Sue Johnson, who's another pioneer, a therapist, and she developed emotionally focused therapy, which is a lot, a practice a lot of with couples, she says that the question is, are you there for me? So when a couple can look at their partner and ask them, are you there for me? And that answer is 99% yes, maybe even 95% yes. That is a strong trusting friendship. It doesn't mean, you know, you're always around. It's in these moments I need you. Are you there for me? And again, I think that there is something that just radiates trust. I'm not asking that every day. That might not be an actual great attribute of a long-lasting marriage. You just know it. It's like, oh, they've cut my back. They're going to have me. We're going to face hard things, and we'll figure it out. I had some outpatient procedure done a while back, and Mrs. Jones was in the waiting room, and I went back with the nurse, and she was asking me all the standard questions, birth, blah, emergency contact. And she said, who is that in the lobby? Is that your friend? And I said, well, yeah, it is my friend, but she's also my wife. But, you know, the first thing I could have said was, no, that's not my friend. That's my wife. But immediately, because we do have that type of relationship and that friendship and things that we have shared with each other that we haven't shared with anyone else. Yeah, what a beautiful, I mean, what a beautiful response that you're, yeah, I think probably most people would have been like, no, that's my wife, you know, but I love that you're like, yeah, she is probably my best friend, if I'm really being honest, but I'm also lucky enough that she's my wife, too. So I get to have hot sex with her, but I won't tell you about that, because we're not friends. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we want to have that strong friendship. And I think another thing that kind of goes hand in hand with that, but it's a little different is this idea of vision. I think what I see from couples that make it, couples that go through a big hard, couples that come and are really, really willing to wrestle it out to make their marriage last is this idea of shared vision. And I think that it needs to be long-term and short-term. And a lot of couples have really, really great short-term vision. You know, we want to raise these kids. I know that seems long-term, but actually that's going to be over at some point. You know, I want to, we want to work hard in our careers and buy this house or get this beach house or whatever. and so but there's this idea of a long-term vision that i think a lot of couples just aren't quite as maybe detailed about and so it's just like we'll be together forever well how doing what in what way and beyond retirement planning like i'm not saying we've saved for the future and that's sort of like well i got a pin in that that's great a lot of couples don't have conversations in terms of what do i want to be doing when i don't have kids or i don't have a career and you don't have kids and you don't have a career and how do we mesh that together. And what does it look like for you to support me? And how do we balance time together where it's not too much and it's not too little? And how do we grow into these years together? And again, that looks like more than financial planning. It looks like more than, you know, God forbid, having medical directives. Like there is a vision. And then when I think about vision, I think about dreams. You know, I don't just think about pad to pencil planning. I think about dreaming dreams with your partner. And again, we're great at the short-term ones. We were great at the picket fence and the house and the wedding and the kids and all the dogs and all the things. And I think if we could, couples that put something in, even if it's just the conversation world around, what do I want our lives to look like? And one of the things I think is great is this doesn't have to be plans. Vision can just be, my vision today is we're going to, you know, retire and spend six months a year in Europe and explore the world. Tomorrow it might be, well, I don't want to I want to do that. I want to sell this house and get an RV and travel the whole country. Like it's just together adventuring. It's this idea of knowing. Yeah. And I think that the way that we look at it is whether instead of getting too micro about this, we want to experience new things together. That's kind of been our mantra since our kids got older and we started to realize we could focus on each other again. So when you think about experiencing new things together, that could be, the lifestyle or it could be traveling, you know, and seeing things that we haven't seen before or making new friends. You know, I think that freshness of not experiencing new things individually, although that's important, but we want to do it together because when we experience new things together, our relationship just gets that much richer. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So we got one last thing and then we'll be on to what other relationships. we can talk about transitions in. And I think I saved this for last because it's the hardest. One thing that we see and research says really contributes to a lasting marriage is realistic expectations and acceptance of your spouse. And so I think what that means is that there is a part of us that has to sometimes come to the realization that the person we married is who they are and that there are the things about them that maybe we don't love, that we don't enjoy the same maybe kind of movie or they're chronically late or they have a hobby that we don't enjoy at all and they're not going to give that hobby up for us. And finally, when we're in this power struggle phase of marriage that's sort of like, well, you change. No, you change. Well, bend for me. No, you bend for me. And we're fighting it. Couples that make it sort of get to this place where they're just like, you know, you're who you are. and I'm who I am. And I don't have to be 100% happy with everything about you. And you know what? The fact that I'm 92.5% happy is just fine. The amazing Terry Real, who I've studied with, has a quote that he says, a good marriage has to reconcile this equation. Are you getting enough to grieve what you are not? And I'll tell that to couples and they will either sigh in relief because they're like, Oh, so what that means is I'm never going to get this other part. Like there's not a hundred percent. And I'm happy with that. You know what? I'm definitely, definitely over the 50% line of getting enough to grieve, but I'm not. And I think what happens is they can let go because grief means put it down. You know, we don't grieve things that are changeable. We change them. Grief is reserved for the unchangeable things. And I think there's a piece that comes with that of like, I can just stop fighting this And you're right, that math works in my favor. And there's other couples that I say that to, and they were like, absolutely not. Absolutely not. As long as there's breath in my lungs, I'm going to fight for 100%. And I'll tell you, of those two, you know, people that are sitting down with me, the ones that sigh and relief are the happiest. They have, I think, a better chance of maybe not being successful. I'm certainly not going to be the judge of that, but of being at peace and of being happier where they are. And so I think acceptance of your partner. is a really, really great thing. Yeah. So Mrs. Jones, you're going to have to just grieve the idea that I'm going to wear Christmas shirts. There you go. That you're not going to wear Christmas shirts. That I'm not going to wear Christmas shirts. Go ahead and grieve that right now. Yeah. I think that's a good example. Absolutely. When your sense of humor is a little too out there for me, then I just have to take a breath and just let it go. You know, every time we're on with Kel, it's just great marriage therapy for the two of us. See, the benefit you're getting. But I will say, I know for a fact that Ms. Jones is getting enough to grieve both of those things. Yes. I mean, I think you just, and I think that's one of the good parts of growing older is I think you get to the point where it's easier to just shake off the small stuff and acknowledge, okay, he's annoying, but in the scheme of things, that's, you know, small potatoes. Absolutely. And just let it go. Yeah. But we know he's an an enneagram six or a nine or whatever it is. So she, I tell you what, she's pulling that out a lot too, Cal. So you. Well, obviously not that much if she doesn't know which number you are. I know which number he is. He doesn't know which number he is. But she knows what number I am because she's a one. Yeah, there you go. Cause she remembered, she did her homework. Thank you. She's got a spreadsheet on that. Yeah. Okay. Let's move on to the non-monogamous side of the coin here. Absolutely. So as we shift to thinking about relationships that are based in non-monogamy. And so I'm not talking necessarily about primary relationships now. You know, we've covered that already. So these are these ancillary relationships that you have with other people. So I think, I thought it'd be interesting for us to kind of talk about, you know, if we're thinking about transition, that means there's sort of an A to a B to a C to a D, you know, idea. With marriage, it's sort of like, well, you're married or you're divorced. Pretty black and white there. But this is a much broader, idea of what relationship could be. So I really think if we're going to talk about maybe, and we'll do this in a broad sense, we're not going to be able to cover every single kind, of course, of relationship. But I think there's some common stages or types of relationships in the world of non-monogamy. So, you know, what do you guys think some of those are? Well, I mean, obviously the first stage, when you're thinking of non-monogamy and you're meeting new people, I think everybody's impression that the first stage is going to be like this magnetic sexual attraction you have to people, you know, and that's going to be like your brain's primary focus because it's going to be probably controlled by hormones, right? Sure. And I think that at least for us, it's connecting with somebody on maybe more of a friendship level before there's movement, you know, anywhere beyond that. So, you know, that's the way that, that's the way I think that's a perfect, perfect one. So I think there are a lot of people who will meet people in a environment, a sexy environment, and they create this sexy friendship and there's not any physical element yet. And that could be yet, but it could be never. You know, how many people have you guys met in your journeys that were incredibly smart and gorgeous and you had this great flirtation, but it was never going to be what we like to see with pants off. Right. Right. that we make in this space that are much more sexually charged. They're probably a lot different than our vanilla relationships. We talk about different things. There's a tongue-in-cheek laughter and we make jokes that we wouldn't make in church maybe or the PTA, but there's not a sexual connection. So sure, that's our first or one of our stages. I think kind of almost the flip of that is there are people in this space that have relationships that are completely physical and very little friendship. you know we call those kind of those people sort of DTF. And so that means they're showing up and they're there for the sexy physical fun. I'm here to have sex with other people. It's really like there's my business card. That's what I'm looking for. And they're not really looking for relationship. They're not looking to get your number and chat later or go have drinks or whatever. They're just there for the physical and maybe not so much relational. So that's another genre or another stage of this relationship type. I think there's another one that I would consider just traditional swinging. You know, I think I think that most people who step into your community, for example, and into a lot of other communities that we're a part of are both. They are looking for the magic sauce of amazing, sexy friendship and a physical element that could be an entire different spectrum that we're not even going to get into. But there's some physical connection that is also happening in those friendships. So there's three. Four, I think, would be probably people that choose, and you did a great episode about this with Catherine, about like what she called it, So they are maybe, again, it's swinging, but there's a much deeper and a much more emotional connection that is formed. Other, they just wouldn't call it just friends. Like, well, we're something more than friends. You know, we're just in this middle place, but it is definitely intense. They see each other multiple times a year. They really prioritize. They really make time. They're very committed to these relationships. Right. And then I think last on the other side, maybe the spectrum, you have these closed relationships where people are very deeply and sexually committed a lot of times they're not interfacing with anybody else it's it's a closed system so we might call consider that polyamory or a closed quad or closed however many number you have but again there's a little bit of exclusivity and a little bit more sort of of a monogamous with a bunch of people whatever that word is but there's that element to it it is a different kind of commitment and i'm trying to equate that to our marriage before we were non-monogamous because I won't speak for Mrs. Jones, but when we first got married, I was DTF. I mean, it was very much at the forefront of our relationship as we got married and got into this. And then the friendship element developed over a period of time. And so a lot of the changes that you just laid out with non-monogamous relationships, I think, also are similar to the way that a relationship changes. Maybe the expectation is different to begin with because a lot of us come into this saying, this is all I want. I've got everything over here. This is all I want. But then you get into it and you realize maybe that's not all that you want. Where a marriage, you're committing at the altar from day one that this is going to be it and you're going to be the one. That doesn't mean that the walk through life is going to get you there. But that's stated up front where most of the times non-monogamy is not, you know, that's not, we don't know that because we don't know that area. We don't know that environment. We don't know what we think we know, but we really don't. Right. I think you're completely correct. I think when we think about these different types of relationships, which is really what we kind of described them as, I think that there is a transition that is going to happen. And so we think about sort of, you know, some of those could ebb and flow. through some of those different, you know, columns. So maybe you meet a couple and you start off as sexy friends with no physical. You know, we meet at an event and we have an amazing conversation and we do exchange numbers and, you know, but nothing happens. Well, then we see them in another event and something physical happens. So now we've got the sexy friendship and we've added the physicality. Well, that becomes so fun that we decide to not just wait for another event. We're going to be intentional and we're going to have a weekend together and, you know, out west and blah. And so we plan that and we see them again. And then that turns into another weekend. And that turns into another weekend. And suddenly we've created a deeper relationship. There becomes feelings. There becomes, you know, attraction. There becomes commitment. But we're still open with others. That's a common story that we hear a lot from people. So those moved. And that people were happy with that. It was a rich, rich transition. We were thrilled with it. I think people can move from sexy friendship to DTF. it's like hey you're fun let's go have sex and they're like i don't really want to exchange numbers like if we see you again we see you again that's great and people are completely fine with that as well i think there are some movements that we just really accept those of us who are in this lifestyle it's like yeah sure you could go from a to b and b to c and maybe even b to d and that's okay right i think the challenge becomes which of those relationships do we feel like once they get there or do the people that that we see that get into those relationships feel that once I'm in this state, well, it's this or until death do us part. And maybe death is the death of the relationship. There's no way to move backwards. And I don't really love the progress feeling like forward and backwards, but there's nowhere to go. So I do hear a lot of people that get into close, deeply emotionally and sexually committed relationships with others. And they have this perspective of, well, we're here forever. and they don't really have any movement or even the idea of any movement from that place, which is totally different. Most people would never say that they were going to limit themselves to a sexy friendship with no physical and say, well, I'm never going to play with these people, no matter what, in any way, shape or form, and then continue to be friends with them. They'd be open to, you know, I don't see, feel a physical connection, but I don't know. We could see them again and it could be there. Like they're a lot more open to change. I just think it's hard to quantify those delineations in a non-monogamous relationship when it starts off I mean when again when we when you get married you're like okay kids a house the job you know these are things that we put the finances the joint checking accounts you know the retirement savings these are things that throughout normal air quote relationships and marriages that we have on our list that we are going to step through. When you get into a relationship with another couple in a non-monogamous world, those steps don't necessarily, you don't know what they are. Like, well, I already have kids. I already have a career. I already have a home. I already have my retirement set out or whatever. What are the things? And then I've got this new relationship energy, so I want to be around the person. But after that, what is it that we want to achieve together? Who are we? How do we define where we're going? And I don't know that there's a lot of examples out there that people can grab a hold of to say, ah, I see what they have. They've modeled that. So now that I can kind of plant that in my head is maybe that's where we're headed. So it must be just so much more difficult to navigate that kind of friendship as it evolves over time. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like it's challenging for people because, again, there's no road marks. There's no roadmap. There's just not. We do have a roadmap of marriage. We do have this relationship escalator that we use that people we date and then we get engaged and we get married and then we have kids. And again, that doesn't exist. This is more like a merry-go-round, if anything. It's just kind of a bunch of horses and we're all riding them up and down and we get on different ones or we get off. And so it doesn't feel very tracked. And to your point, Mr. Jones, we don't have a lot of examples. How many millions of examples of a classic marriage do we all look at and understand? We don't have examples in this, even in lifestyle and non-monogamy to look to. I think that there is, there's, there's a challenge that comes because I think most people come into every relationship with what you described as all of these wonderful things. New Relationship Energy is just another amazing hormone that floods through us when we meet new people that we're energized about. We have that. We create these commitments sometimes. We create these relationships sometimes. And then, again, it's this idea of shared vision. Well, how hard is it? And I think to sort of say where I'm trying to go with this before we get there is when we talked about marriages and we talked about the fact that some marriages are just not going to make it, not going to be because they're not going to go all the way through the end of their lives, and that's okay. I just want to offer that that is how this works as well. Just because a relationship ebbs and flows into a much deeper, much more connected emotional and sexual relationship doesn't mean that it has to stay there forever and that it is stuck in that space. And I think that we sort of get in the same rut as marriage, which is, well, there's nothing else I can do here, and we're unhappy, and this is isn't working and or one person isn't working because now we've got four people at least and sometimes six and you know who knows how many the numbers are and again it i think that if we can look at this from the beginning so if you are someone who you just described mr jones has fallen sort of into this well here i am and i've got all these things happening or you've met people and maybe it's a sexy friendship and you want to move it into a physical element so we're not even talking about this heavy emotional we're just talking about transitioning from a to b relationships I would encourage people to start to have conversations like what does this look like right now and how would we feel if this was a six-month relationship and not a six-year relationship and you know I just don't think there's enough conversation around what happens if this ends or what happens not necessarily if it ends but if it needs to transition back you know I have some amazing friends and they have been able to in non-monogamy, come out of non-monogamy, and keep their friendships that they found in that world. And guess what? There's nothing left but sexy friendship. And even the friendship isn't really that sexy. It's more just like a vanilla friendship. And I admire them so much because I think that's such a rare thing for people to be able to do well. And so I think that there's a conversation to be had in these communities of what happens if we aren't all going to live in the old folks' home together, and you're going to have a bed, and I'm going to have a bed and sometimes we'll swap beds and we'll really mess the staff up then how can we make sure that if this relationship needs to flow into another space we can do it with grace well communication i think one way to to have a conversation like that is to not use the word end sure but use the word change what if our friendship changes what if our uh you know relationship with each other the way that we relate with each other what if that changes you know what if our sex life together changes. You know, are we still going to be friends? So it doesn't necessarily have to end. I think marriage, when we, Catherine pointed this out beautifully, you've referenced it, but it can change. You know, you're not legally married anymore, but you still co-parent and you still have a relationship, some sort of relationship together. It doesn't necessarily end. It just changes. Yes, legally the marriage ended. But, you know, maybe if we're looking at it like, and we've had this conversation with our friends, because we've said, we have some really close friends, and we've always said, and they have too, the friendship is what's most important. The friendship is what's most important. And when you say that, what that does is it allows you to bring other things into the conversation by saying, okay, we need to talk about something, and we, and our goal here is to protect the friendship, you know, so here's what I think we need to do. to talk about because we need we need to protect the friendship in other words i don't want to hurt anyone i don't want to lose you i don't want this to end remember it's our friendship that's most important yeah and i appreciate that restatement because i think you're right i think that what happens is people come into these things and say well we can't exist like this anymore for whatever reason and it has to end right that creates the reactionary things that you've seen and i've seen dozens of times right in in couples and in in groups is this You know, again, for a lot of people, you have such a strong reaction to a relationship transitioning at least into a way that doesn't feel like more of the same or more of more. Maybe it's going somewhere that feels less. And we do have this really strong reaction from people. And I want to give grace to those people because I think that there's a lot of history we have around relationships getting smaller that, again, feels like failure. You know, to switch back to marriages, there's a lot of marriages that exist. that becomes smaller. You know, that sometimes couples will decide, you know what, we don't have a romantic and sexual connection, but man, we're great financial partners, and man, we're great housemates, and man, we're great co-parents, and man, we're great children of older parents together, and they decide to change their relationship and not have the sexual component be a part of it. And it's extremely successful, and it's less. And sure, there's some grief there, but they're able to do it. It's rare. Most people don't want to give anything up. If I can't have everything, I'm going to have nothing. And so I see that a lot. a lot in non-monogamous relationships where you're right Mr. Jones what happens is that we would hope that people would want to maintain the friendship but what we see is that they want to have everything. Right. And when they can't have everything. That's right. They have this big reaction. Right. It becomes you know a breakup. Right. And they don't know how to manage that and I would say to those people well why? Of course we're all rational completely We don't have flipped lids. Our lids are very well into our very adult-share-centered people most of the time until someone tries to take something away from us that we value. And I'll just say a couple of things. Most people don't have practice breaking up with people. If you are in a marriage that you guys mentioned, you've been married for 40 years, when's the last time you broke up with someone? Right. You know, for a lot of us, it was middle school, maybe high school, maybe freshman year of college. Well, guess what? None of us- a note that she slipped her friend her friend gave me yeah absolutely we've all got we've all got a great breakup story from our l our adolescents yeah you know there's been some research that came out this this week that said adolescents an adolescent brain lasts until your 30s now well wonderful so none of us had fully formed adult brains the last time we broke up with someone and if and if you reflect back i don't if there was somebody else in our community that we're friends with and she said why can't why do you Why do we think we can't celebrate the relationships that we had that were a lot of fun, but for whatever reason are over now? Why can't we celebrate that? Why do we have to look back in pain or suffering or anger? Because it's no longer going on. And the only illustration I can think of, and it's not a good one, because you don't choose your boss, but I had a really horrible boss, but I have caught myself saying so many times, you know what I learned from him, or you know what I remember he did for me, or you know, there are still things about that time that he was my boss that I took away as positive things. Yeah, of course, of course. And I think that there is a, you know, another cost there that's awkwardness. I think that what happens is that we don't know how to interface with these people, not just look back and celebrate, like, wow, that was a great relationship. Why can't we look back and cheer for what was and just say, well, it just isn't, it's just not there anymore. I think that people feel really awkward. And I mean, I've been in that position where you have a relationship that has transitioned from, you know, sexy play fun to now just friendship. And it, there's, there's a little bit of probably it wasn't unanimous. You know, a lot of couples aren't, you know, level headed enough or emotionally mature enough to sit down and have a conversation like you just, you know, modeled for them of like, well, the friendship is the most important thing. Some people, the friendship wasn't the most important thing. It was the sexual connection or it was the emotional attachment. And so I think we step into a world where we are not skilled and we aren't used to. Again, if we go back to high school where you broke up with your girlfriend and it was dramatic and your friends didn't talk to her anymore and you didn't talk to her friends anymore and we were never getting back together. Thanks, Taylor. And that was it. And now we're in our 50s and we're seeing the same people at the same events and the same things. And we don't know I think that as an individual though, if it's just a couple, I mean, there's always residual damage when feelings get hurt and things end. But if it's just you and your partner, that's one thing. But if it's you and three other people, and you're the one who doesn't want, that wants a change, and the other three or two of them don't, and one of them is your partner who you care about, that, you know, you talk about not having an the experience and how to deal with that, those conversations are, first of all, daunting to begin with. And it's got to be difficult because you're actually going to be hurting the person that you care about the most when you want to do something like that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the message that we're trying to share with people is, you know, A, don't be afraid to get in these relationships because, you know, they may change or they may end or whatever. But instead, what if we could create a culture where we We started to have conversations like, well, what happens when this relationship needs to change? Again, if what I quoted earlier is that marriages have a 50-50 shot of lasting forever in air quotes, well, my goodness, there's no universe where we don't have that or less for these relationships to last forever. Just there's so much working against them. We don't have the stability and the structure that a marriage has. We don't have mortgages and co-parenting and dogs and pets and shared in-laws. There's just so little in that other than relational connection to keep these, you know, these ties. And so just sitting and saying, well, you know, again, I'm not saying that planning to get out tomorrow, but what would it be like if for some reason this relationship needed to change? How do you think you would handle that? How would you want us to approach that? You know, what are our feelings about now that this is four people or three people or however many people? What do we do if one person feels that way? How are we going to celebrate that person? and being brave and not shun them for being, you know, the problem. So how do you answer the response that is, okay, I'm thinking about four people now. I'm thinking about a four-way relationship I have in non-monogamy. And we're talking about discussing with them and each other, what will this look like if it possibly ends? Are we prescribing, you know, newlyweds to sit down and say, all of this buildup, all of this hoopla, I just made this commitment at the author, and now do I have to talk about what if this doesn't make it? Because so many people in non-monogamous relationships that are serious or more polyamorous, they may say, well, I never talked to my partner about it ending. Why would I talk to them about it ending? It's almost like I'm insulting the relationship because because we're not talking about this. So how do you handle that discrepancy between the two relationships? Well, and I've really thought about that. And here's what I'll say. It's a lot like what we just said about how hard it is to understand how these relationships can change and what does the escalator look like for non-monogless relationships when there's not enough cultural or friendly or familiar examples. I think that the flip is true for marriage. I think that when two people get married today, there are so many avenues and so many examples of how a marriage would end that, okay, well, what's it going to look like? Well, we have 50 examples of what it may look like. And we have so many resources for what that would look like. We have unconscious, we have conscious uncoupling and we have, you know, partner divorce and we have one house where we live separate and raise children. I mean, that's just three of 3 million ways that people can get divorced. I would say to people that are in non-magnobis relationships are like, oh, well, I never did it to the marriage. Well, you didn't have to because if that ever became a road or an exit you had to take on this road, there were so many different exit ramps for that and so much support for you that you didn't have to recreate the wheel there. There wouldn't have been, oh, well, what will we do if we don't want to get married? Do you know what people do when they don't want to stay married? No, we all know what people do when they don't want to stay married. And so to me, it's that same thing. Okay, well, you're in a relationship structure where there's there's so few rules and there's so few examples and there's so few beautiful works and beautiful examples that you can look to on how to structure this. And structure from the beginning, structure in the middle, and structure towards what the change may be to transition to different. And so you're going to have to do all of that on your own. And if I had to do all of that on my own with very little reference material, I'd probably start my reference material early. Like I'd probably start building a library of, well, what if this? And what if this? And not in an anxiety way, but in a proactive way, in a respectful, hey, I care about you. And you're right. I don't want that to end in a way that hurts you. So what would you want? And what would it feel like to you? Almost like more in like a medical advanced directive type way. You know, if I have advanced directives, I'm not planning on, you know, expiring in the hospital anytime soon. But I'm just like, well, these are the things I'd probably want. Not enacting them tomorrow. however they're there and so i think of it more like that so do you have any as we kind of start to wrap this up do you have any uh words of wisdom i mean you you guys are usually pretty good at throwing some tidbits and tools out there for people to practically take what we've talked about and and move forward uh or or is it that like you just said these blueprints aren't created yet we have to we have to try things that we think might work best i would encourage people and now that we're, you know, we're talking about people in the nom nom in the space. I feel like, again, if you think of yourself as an explorer, you've got to sort of cut your own path. And so what I, what that means to me is if you are in any of these types of relationship with another group of human beings, two or one or however many, having a conversation, hey, where are we? And does it, does it seem to be working for you? It's working for me. And, and what would you ever want to do? want done if it wasn't working. If this no longer met my needs or no longer fit into my life or started to cause me some undue stress or cost that I couldn't pay, I think that's a great thing for people to do. And it doesn't, to your point, Mr. Jones, mean I'm like, okay, well, this is coming and I'm just giving you a heads up. No, it's being proactive. It's, again, creating some resources that you can go back to with people that you don't have probably a 40-year history with. And so I think that that's a practice. It may feel uncomfortable. But again, there's some trust. You know, just going back to what makes marriages long-lasting, what makes any relationship long-lasting is a strong, trusting friendship. And so being able to have a hard conversation is one of the hallmarks of having a strong, trusting friendship. Yeah, well, you know, we thought this lifestyle was just all about having fun and sexy time with other people. And then you met Catherine. Look at this can of worms that we've discovered and opened. Yeah, it's really, It's really fascinating to be able to talk about these things because we, in a way, even though there's no pattern or blueprint out there, that means we get to make one. You know, that means we, and then ultimately we need to share that. And I think especially within our community and with other communities, when you're, when you are on the outside, like if you're viewing another friendship with four other people and you're observing their relationship and you see it evolve and change possibly, end. You know, there's more learning opportunity the longer that you're in this and kind of understand what those different pathways are that normal, us normal married people already know plenty about. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's an opportunity to learn new things and create new things. And again, we always talk about this as a big adventure. And part of adventure is, I don't know what I'm doing. That's okay, because we're on an adventure. Yeah. All right. So anything, Anything else before we, I guess we need to ask what's going on with Expansive Connection? What do you guys have coming down the road that we have to look forward to? Well, one of the biggest things I get to be the person to announce is we have added a new coach to our team and we could not be more excited. Mitch has joined us. He is going to be taking clients starting in 2026 and he's actually going to be joining you, both of you, next month to tell a little bit about himself and about his journey his just very unique blend of his career path. And that's led him to join us. And I won't steal that from his thunder next month. You're going to love him. He's an incredible human being. And we are so excited to bring him into our team. I'm excited that he and I are going to be leading a workshop in January of 2026 all about how to merge the very different but aligned backgrounds of religion and non-monogamy. And so we're going to host a workshop that's going to delve into really three sort of ideas about how people that have a deep religious background and maybe a deep faith even now and are practicing or interested in practicing non-monogamy can merge those two worlds and we're going to talk about some of the shame and some of the beliefs that we have about sexuality especially people that grow up in religious backgrounds and how that can really cause us some strife and some hardship in this space and then we're going to talk about what does it mean to sort of deconstruct those beliefs and then what does it mean to reconstruct new ones in the faith background and active faith now. It doesn't mean that just because you are interested or want to be in a non-monogamous relationship that you have to leave your faith behind and you get to just kind of create it to really match who you are now. And so we're really excited about a workshop. We're going to be hosting in January for that. One other thing, just always, always going to be able to share, Catherine and I are hosting another amazing couples retreat in February in Destin, Florida. It's going to be a great, great event. And so if people are interested in being with us in person and getting to be with other couples that are in or interested in non-monogamy, then please follow, come to our website. You can get more information about that. We'd love to have you join us in Destin. Outstanding. And based on the little bit of tidbit you've fed us about your workshop with Mitch, I'm afraid if we ever podcast about that topic, it might be three or four or five episodes long. Good luck with that. Well, as always, this has been a lot of fun and learning for us both. I think when we first started talking about new relationship energy and polyamory and quads back in the fall, and then we led into Catherine's conversation about her marriage, I like this conversation has a little bit more light at the end of the tunnel, you know, that this isn't the end of the world. It really shouldn't surprise people when it happens. And, you know, it's just a part of these new experiences. that we want to share with each other, you know, staying together as a couple and navigating them through just one more challenge that we have to think about. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's what we're here for is we want people to feel like, you know, change is, again, change is not a bad thing. It's an inevitable thing and it's going to happen. And how can we support you through it? And how can you feel prepared to face that with, you know, your best face forward? So I hope people left today's conversation feeling that way. Okay. And if they want to learn more, about everything that you just talked about or anything Expansive Connection has, where can they find information on the web? Absolutely. The best way is just to go to our website, which is expansiveconnection.com slash ENM. That's where all of our courses, workshops, retreats, anything and everything else you can find right there. And also we're thrilled to be a part of the We Gotta Think community. So if you are not a member of that amazing community, do yourself a favor and join and you'll find a ton of amazing resources from us and all of our coaches have profiles there and we're all active in that community as well well kel thank you very much for your time please give the best to your husband and we look forward to seeing you guys in the flesh hopefully what we can do next year is do another in-person recording yeah that's so much absolutely we will definitely make that happen all right well take care all right thank you hey this is jessica if this episode stirred something in you curiosity or that quiet, I've been looking for this feeling. Don't stop here. Go listen to episode 131, Finding Your Tribe and the We Got a Thing community. It's where the conversations go deeper, the connections get real, and you discover that this journey was never meant to be taken alone. Because if you're listening, chances are you've got a thing. A craving for more honesty, more freedom, and a space where you feel understood without having to justify who you are. And we've got a thing. a thriving community built exactly for like-minded couples and individuals ready to explore, grow, and connect with support that's as deep as the desire that brought you here. Head to WeGotAThing.com and come inside because a thing you've been craving is not just a fantasy. It's a real community and we're waiting for you. Follow us on at WeGotAThing on Instagram and X. That's W-E-G-O-T-T-A-T-H-I-N-G for a glimpse into the the energy, inspiration, and intention behind everything we do.