Episode 143: Swinging & Polyamory- Are We More Alike than We Think?

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey, you teenagers out there. If you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello, everyone. I'm Mr. Jones. And I'm Mrs. Jones. And we want to welcome you to episode 143 of the We Got a Thing podcast. A very special episode outside of our normal banter. Yes. We were fortunate enough to be contacted by the good folks from the Multi-Amory podcast. Who have been podcasting as long as we have. 11 years. Yeah. They're much more professional than we are. Well, we try. You try. Yeah. They have been, yeah, they've been podcasting a long time. They have a really loyal following. They reached out to us and said a lot of our listeners are asking questions about the And we said, imagine that because a lot of our listeners tend to reach out and say, hey, we're interested in what it's like moving into the polyamorous space. Yeah, we have a space in our community called the Morsems space. And there are a lot of people who are finding themselves in relationships with feelings. So it turned out to be very good timing. So we want to thank Dedeker and Emily and Jace for reaching out and for taking the time to collaborate with us. And we, as soon as we go over a few announcements, we're going to play the episode for you that we recorded with them and they've already released. So thank you also for all of the positive feedback that we got from our conversation with Catherine last month on episode 142. I'm sure that was a, it was a tough one to record and I'm sure it was kind of hard to listen to. Yeah. And she, she was worried that some of the feedback that she may get would be somewhat judgy or snarky but she's been pleasantly surprised that of all of the support that she's received so we appreciate that and she's going to come back with us in a couple of weeks and she's going to talk about the same topic but from a counselor's point of view yeah which i think you know as as we were talking with her and and as you and i have talked about it and listened to it you know it it had to have been So maddening to have all of this knowledge in your brain, and you're going through the very thing that you help people overcome, and not being able to, like, air quote, fix yourself, right? Sometimes we just can't be fixed. We end up in situations where the outcome isn't what you want, but that's the reality. Yes, and those are the very things we're going to ask her about. What is it like to be a coach and a counselor and non-monogamy and then have things go wrong in your own personal life. So we're looking forward to that. Sorry that she had to go through that, but one of the things that we've tried to do over the years is to make sure that everything that we air on our podcast or record is truthful and straightforward. Yes. We like it when it's fun, but real life isn't always fun. Yes. So we want to make sure that we're putting our a realistic view of what this is all about out there yes and then we are also going to be recording and ask us anything episode when we travel to desire pearl next week which will be our seventh or eighth year ninth year in a row yeah it'll be the eighth year that we've taken a group and we always do we always record a podcast from desire and this year we're going to record a ask us anything yes which Which you and I do every Friday morning. Yes, we do. Bright and early. Well, yes. Bright and early. One of us is chipper and the other one is drinking coffee. Yeah. But it is fun. It is fun. So we do these live streams every Friday morning within our community. And people post questions. And you know the questions ahead of time. I do them cold. Yes. On half a cup of coffee. Yeah. Sometimes not even a half a cup of coffee. I know. I know. But it's kind of fun. And the questions are all over the place. Because it's truly ask us anything. Yeah. So we're going to take that same format to desire. And it's going to be great. Because not only can they ask us anything, we can look around the disco where we record this episode every year. And we can beg for help and get other people to chime in. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So if you have a question, you want to send us an email at mrjones at wegotathing.com maybe we can get your question answered as well yes also we have a virgin cruise we went on this virgin cruise with the devious dragonfly folks last february and we're going to go again and i cannot wait we have about 25 couples signed up the boat is not full yet so if you want to go again you can email me and i will send you the details if you're interested in cruising with us in february out of Miami. Yeah. I mean, February, Miami, Caribbean, Virgin Cruises, and a bunch of sexy friends. What's not to like? I know. And lastly, before we turn this back over to Dedeker and Emily and Jace, we wanted to remind everyone that we have a brand new single guys only space. You can find it on our website, wegotathing.com. It is outside of our community. It's a space just for single guys. And what we're trying to do, to coin a term that you use all the time, Mrs. Jones, is help guys to become quality single guys in the lifestyle. Yes, yes. Because quality single guys in the lifestyle, to me, that's the true unicorn. Yes. It's very, it's easy to find hot guys, but then to find guys that are intuitive enough to know, like, how to fit in with a couple and that couple's fantasy. And so I think that there's an art to that. Yes. So for a nominal fee of $5, Single Guys can come into this space. There's a couple of mini courses in there. We also have a recording, audio recording from a panel discussion we did with three single guys in our community. Three quality single guys in our community. Sorry, three quality single guys. Actually, and they all had different levels of experience. They did. So it was a really good conversation. Yeah. We also have a lot of resources in there for you. Other podcasts about single guys. And there's also a chat. So you guys can come in there and chat amongst yourselves as you learn how to be quality single guy. And then what we're going to do is make them quality, help them, help to make them quality single guys and then turn them back loose in the world. Yes. To go and spread their cheer. And no, I do not get to personally screen them before we set them loose. No. That probably wouldn't be exactly right. All right. But that actually might not be a bad idea. Wait, why hadn't we thought of that before? I see the wheels are turning over there on the other side of the table. All right. Well, let's get out of the way and let our friends from Multi-Amory Podcast take over. And we hope you enjoy our conversation with Dedeker, Emily, and Chase. I think the word swinger just has a really negative connotation I don't like the word like I don't like to call myself a swinger we tend to say the lifestyle a lot yeah I'll give you a little story behind it we'll get emails from listeners and they'll say first sentence we are not swingers now we have had a threesome before and my wife has you know had a single guy before but we're not swingers I'm like, well, can you define for me what you think it is? And it's the perception of the word. The reason we use We Got a Thing of Swinger podcast is because that's how people find us. You know, it's almost like we're forced into use that label, but then we have to help people understand that the definition of that, it's changing and it's evolving. And that's one of the things that we're trying to hopefully, along with you all, educate people. I think the words ethical and swinger, just you never hear those two words in the same sentence. Welcome to the Multiamory Podcast. I'm Jace. I'm Emily. And I'm Dedeker. We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past. Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you and we're here for you. Thumbs I know I did Forcing me to form myself to fit On this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're talking to the hosts of the We Got a Thing podcast, Mr. and Mrs. Jones. Their podcast chronicles their journey into the swinger lifestyle over the last decade. And so this episode is going to be a little bit of a special one. We're going to do an interview swap, where we'll be talking to Mr. and Mrs. Jones about the state of swinging today, and then they'll be interviewing us about the state of polyamory today. And then we'll have a third section where we're going to talk a little bit about NRE, new relationship energy, and how to manage that. If you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show, you can check out our book, Multiamory Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com slash book or wherever books are sold. Mr. and Mrs. Jones, thank you so much for joining us today. J.C., you've got the terminology down already. Swap. Swapping episodes. Oh, there you go. Nice. Nice. We're on the right track. Is this an episode hard swap or a soft swap? Wait, what is that man? Well, you know what? We don't know you guys well enough yet. We need to know people first. So we're in the pre-swap phase of the relationship? Yeah, your potential swap. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, great. Okay. Okay, so the two of you, you've been hosting your show for a long time. It's been what, 10 years plus now for the show? Yeah, 11. 11 years. Yeah. Oh, so we're very similar. We're also 11 years. Yeah. Wow, things were really happening in 2014. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. What's the biggest thing that you've seen shift or change within the lifestyle community over the last decade it's just it seems to be touching mainstream a little bit more than it was in the past i'm not saying that it's touching it accurately um but we are we're seeing it more in television plots we're seeing it more on talk radio shows um and and you guys know this when we started our podcast i think there were two or three other lifestyle non-monogamous phrases like that that most people whip out that I probably should know or maybe listeners should know. Well, Mrs. Jones, as she said, she used to be a teacher and there are no silly questions, Emily. Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Well, I mean, just to keep it like quick and simple, soft swap just means there's no penis and vagina sex. Okay. You know, that's what full swap or hard swap, those are kind of interchangeable. That's basically what that means. There's also what we call parallel play, where you might really have a connection with a couple, but you haven't really decided that you want to interact with other people yet. For example, if you're in a sex club, or even if you have somebody over to your house, you can have sex with your partner right next to that other couple. So you still have that energy and that chemistry there, but you have those guardrails up. Yeah. And another thing to, I think a lot of people misunderstand is it's not hierarchical. A lot of people think you graduate from one level to the next. And, and I think maybe that comes naturally just when people get comfortable. But what we've learned is that it really depends on the situation. It depends on the couple. It depends on the connection. It depends on what, what people, what their boundaries are, what they enjoy doing. And so we've learned that the, it's not a goal oriented sport, uh, As much as it is learning to connect with other people. Right. It's situational. Like, every time you kind of have to assess, like, what are you in the mood for? Like, what fantasies are going through your mind as you're thinking about interacting with this other person or this other couple? I think, you know, I think, again, it goes back to, like, middle school, you know, first base, second base, third base, you know, like, that kind of stuff doesn't really leave your head. Let's say high school. There you go. There you go. Yes. Well, it's interesting you put it that way because I think as a culture, we're already having to unlearn, even looking at sex as a goal-oriented sport. And so, that's interesting that it seems like some of the work that you do is trying to disabuse people of that notion as well. It is. And a lot of it we had to figure out between the two of us. I mean, we really, we had a good sex life, a great sex life before we decided to try non-monogamy. But everything unbeknownst to us, I mean, we got married young. We didn't have many partners before each other. We only knew what we knew together. And it often was goal-oriented. It was good, but it was goal-oriented. And now it's not a goal anymore. It's an experience. And it should be fun. And we should do it in a healthy way. And there needs to be consent and there needs to be conversations about safe sex and all of that prior to what I think a lot of misperception is about quote-unquote swinging is that we'll just have sex with anyone and there's no connection. with the other people and i and i'm sure and it can be done that way i mean yeah you know again it goes back to like what you're interested in like what are your what are your your fantasies as a couple so i there's just there's so many ways to do it but i think everybody when you hear oh my gosh those people are swingers like it goes back to the whole 1970s key parties where it's just very random right well so speaking of misperceptions i did want to rewind. You know, you mentioned how you're starting to see it touch the mainstream more, though not necessarily accurately. And it is kind of funny because I think we would say the same thing about the way the other forms of non-monogamy and polyamory are portrayed. What are your biggest complaints about the ways that in this day and age swinging is still portrayed? Well, it seems like the shows, like if you're watching a TV show, for example, the shows always end up with an unhappy ending, right? It's like people can't do but write and still have a you know have fun swinging and still have a great marriage or a great partnership um that's you know that's just a huge misconception and maybe that's just the the producers you know idea of what makes good drama yeah that that's what it comes down to the drama is yeah it's funny because we our goal is to eliminate drama but if it's going to be successful on the screen you know producers and writers and directors are used to there's gotta be drama somewhere so what do they do they choose jealousy they choose misbehavior they choose lack of consent you know they choose all of these bedrock issues that we don't acknowledge or we do in a different way and they inject that into the show and and there's believe me there's a lot of other ways to put drama into this besides something so negative yeah i've often said in the past when we're talking to people who are more in the tv or film world where I'm like if you made an accurate show about healthy polyamory it would be a really boring show to watch exactly right if that were the focus of your show and that's always something I wish for is that like we could have more shows more movies where various forms of non monogamy show up and they don't have to be the central plot element they don't have to be the part that holds the conflict right exactly there could be other things I have gotten over the last decade the idea that a lot of polyamorous people feel like polyamory is over here and swinging is over here and the two are not necessarily going to meet as much as perhaps they actually do in some senses so if there's anything specifically that you've felt like polyamorous people get wrong about swinging can you talk about that a little bit yeah i think i've touched on it briefly but just the a couple of times well we had a we had an experience of being outed publicly. And when people tried to handle this in the very wrong way, they were almost indignant that, oh, we've been in your house and we've hugged you. Like they were fair game. How dare you sleep with someone else after I hug you? That's so strange. Wow. Yes. Yeah. And it's almost, they come across as it's really, it's offended them that for some reason I must have been sexually attracted to you and I must have just been lying in wait. For this opportunity to jump my wife's bones. And these are people that are intelligent people that we've known for a long time. And so watching them behave that way really was kind of shocking to us. Like, what do you think this is about? And I think the other thing, Emily, is feelings. I mean, feelings are so complex. And, you know, there's such a different level and depth of emotions and connections with people. we use the term connection, but that certainly could equate to caring for or loving, you know, in a certain way. And so there is a lot of, we have deep friends that we don't say we are polyamorous with, that we would trust with our lives. We love them. You know, we don't live together, but we certainly have a deep affection for them. So I think there's a lot more in the blurred lines area of this than a lot of people. on both sides of this issue, really, imagine. And honestly, that was a very unexpected outcome for us. Like, we didn't expect to develop these, like, really caring, long-term, like, loving friendships with people. We thought you either had friends or you had play partners, and that those two things shall not intersect. And lo and behold, they do, and it's actually such an unexpected blessing that's come out of this. Yeah, and I think typically what happens when, and we were like this too, but a new couple will, in a relationship, will decide they want to give this a try. And they'll say, I don't want anyone to know my name. I don't want them to know my kids. I don't want them to know my profession. This is just a taboo thing that we do as a couple. And we enjoy being with these people, but they don't need to know anything about us. But then once people get into it, and they get into the community, and they start meeting people, and they're like, wait a minute, these people are just like we are. healthy relationships just like we are. They care about their families just like we do. And so it was unexpected for us. And I think to a certain degree, more and more people are discovering that that's not only okay, that seems to be becoming the norm. I feel like that's not the first time I've heard that kind of arc described like that. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I remember when we had Kate from Swinging Down Under on, this was several years ago, I always remember her Pants On Pants Off Friendships. That has just like stuck with me ever since then and I think is really beautiful. Yes and you can switch between the two through your life as we've learned as well. Yeah. Do you have connections that have lasted for almost the entirety of the time that you've been in the swinging community or for many many years? Do you mean do we personally? Yeah. With other couples. Oh yeah absolutely. I think it comes down to, I don't know if you all have that illustration of your core friends and your, what is the, you know, the concentric circles, right? The connected, the community. We only have enough time in our lives for a certain number of meaningful relationships. And so, there have been some that we've been close with that have drifted away, just like any other friendship, but then there are some that have lasted. And if we don't see them for six months or eight months, it's like we see them and we We pick right back up. We know their story. We know their family. We know their kids. We know where they live. You know, when you know somebody sexually, it gives you so much of a stronger connection with them that the time that goes between the opportunity to see each other really evaporates when you get back together. Sure. I think one of the things I really like about this whole arena of non-monogamy is that when you are connecting with people, it's like there's very few topics that are off-limits, except your typical religion and politics, right? We don't have time to talk about that stuff. There are way better things that we can talk about that you normally can't talk about with friends. So, I think that just having that freedom to have conversations about very intimate, personal things with people really expedites how close a friendship can get. Well, I'm wondering, you know, how important do you think it is for someone who's new to the lifestyle to be doing that friendship building, connection building, community building? And I could take a guess that the two of you, you know, similar to us, are biased in the pro-community direction, right? Like, you know, being very connected to community and building community and things like that. But I'm imagining, you know, if there's a couple who's like, yeah, we just want to go to the local club, get in, get out. like we're not interested in like trying to maintain any kind of friendship like do you think that that is sustainable and like people can pull that off and like that's totally fine or do you think that no like a part of actually making the sustainable is having these like connections and friendships and community support yeah i think the stronger the relationship the more you're going to stay connected and it's sustainable and and typically what happens dediker is that people get into this. And look, I mean, we were interested in non-monogamy for a whole year before we could wrap our heads around it. And we were interested in it. So to have an expectation, somebody's going to come through the front door, day one as a couple, and they're going to get it, is not, you know, that's not really possible. And in most cases, they have to come in, do some experimenting, connect with some other people. Oh, these people aren't so weird. They're just like us. Oh. Oh my gosh, they're similar in ages. They have families. And there's a progression that occurs that allows people to become more open and vulnerable. And once that starts to happen, then there's a realization that I don't, I can choose my friends now based on things other than the fact that they live next door to me, or the fact that they go to the church, you know, that we go to, or that we're colleagues. You know, friendships that we had before were based on geography Now we're choosing to be with people who we want to be with who are like us who are have the same ideas the same open minds the same sorts of relationships that they want to try to explore and grow. I think it also has it depends on what season of life someone's in you know if this is a if it's a younger let's say we're talking about a couple and they're younger and they are like still doing the weekend soccer tournaments and you know dance and all the things like they don't have time to really get out there and nurture these friendships. Like our kids were already out of the house when we found the swinging lifestyle. So we can get on an airplane and go visit people or get on an airplane and go to events where, you know, people with younger kids at home, as just one really common example, they don't have that luxury. So maybe they do need to limit themselves to going to the club, you know, one Saturday night a month and just having like sexy fun together and if they meet a couple to hook up with that's you know icing on the cake and maybe that's where they're going to stay for a while and then maybe it'll just kind of fade away but i think season of life really has a lot to do with it because we know some younger couples that are juggling kids and stuff we're like oh my gosh how do you how do you have the emotional energy to do that on the other hand we do see that the next generation seems to be a lot more open-minded this is true With opening their minds to different, to owning their own relationship. It's like, just because our parents did it this way, our pastor told us to do it this way, we were coached to do it this way, society. You know, I think it took Mrs. Jones and I longer to get through all of those layers that had been draped over us by society, but I think the next generation down, they seem to be a whole lot more acceptant to the possibility of what a relationship looks like. Sure. Yeah, I think we've definitely noticed that as well. I wanted to quickly ask a little bit of a clarifying question about more terminology. So, something I've found is that, you know, I always called it swinging, and, you know, swinging, or maybe the swinging lifestyle, but I find that with younger people, they tend to avoid using the word swinging, and will more often just say lifestyle. Is that accurate, or are there other terms out there that we should know to clarify? No, I think you're right. I think the word swinger just has a really negative connotation. I don't like the word. I don't like to call myself a swinger. We tend to say the lifestyle a lot. Yeah, I'll give you a little story behind it. We'll get emails from listeners and they'll say, first sentence, we are not swingers. Now, we have had a threesome before and my wife has had a single guy before, but we're not swingers. I'm like, well, can you define for me what you think it is? And it's the perception of the word. The reason we use We Gotta Thing, a swinger podcast is because that's how people find us. It's almost like we're forced into use that label, but then we have to help people understand that the definition of that lifestyle, ethical non-monogamy, it's changing and it's evolving. And that's one of the things that we're trying to hopefully, along with you all, educate people. I think the words ethical and swinger just you never hear those two words in the same sentence and that's problematic interesting yeah yeah but it's consensual right like everyone involved knows what's going on and everyone is okay with the situation that you're in I am pro reclaiming the word swinger because to me and it is the weird thing where like I've never identified as a swinger and I've never identified as a lifestyle person despite like having gone to clubs, having gone to parties, having gone to events, having participated in all the behaviors, right, that we tend to associate with these things. And yet still, I consider myself, like, not a total outsider, but maybe, like, an adjacent outsider to the world. And when I hear the word swinger, I just think someone who's much more relaxed than most of my polyamorous peers. Like, I'm ready for a reclamation. That's just me as someone who's, like, kind of on the fringes here. Because, yeah, I feel like... I like that. We need your voice out there. I think what this has done is it's a means to an end. And what I mean by that is at the atomic level, we're all human. This is a human connection. But if we, when you can have a, and because we're also sexual beings, most of us, that's another atomic level, a part of who we are. And when we connect at that level, everything above that becomes is less important, whether it's a label, whether it's your career, whether it's your age, whether it's your gender, your skin color, all of that kind of falls away the closer we get to that human connection. And so I think that's what we've kind of stumbled upon. We didn't really, we weren't able to wrap our minds around that when we started this podcast, but that's what we're learning. And as we listen to multi-amory and we listen to other people talk about their sexuality, It's almost like at the atomic level, we're all the same, but we need these little labels to help meet people where they are, but then bring them into a closer relationship with their sexuality and with their partners, and then it all starts to blend together. That's very well said. Absolutely. Do you feel like you have specific aspirations for the swinging or lifestyle community? see and hope for the future of this community well it's probably gonna be not in our lifetime that we see a lot of this because we're also realist so you know we do what we can we're just two voices um we do have a virtual community and so it and it is growing and people are learning um but we have a long ways to go and i and i guess our hope would be that in a community like we have where people can be vulnerable They can feel free to explore. They can share knowledge and they can learn. And they can connect with other people. It's almost they're finding their tribe. And they're finding that. And I think this is really important. When we first started, we didn't have anybody else to talk to about this. It was just the two of us. I couldn't go to my dad. I mean, I could have, but I didn't. You know, you can't go to your friends without the fear of judgment. And so we feel like, gosh, it's just the two of us trying to figure this out. So in community, when you can come, and in our community, we have a group for just for ladies and a group for the guys. And every other week, the guys meet and we talk to other guys about what this is like, and the ladies do the same thing. So it does give you a good, a healthy community gives you a forum that you at least have other people that are not going to judge you, that are not going to, you're not going to feel shameful, and you can share the most vulnerable things and people aren't going to, they're not going to laugh at you or not take you seriously. most appropriate thing to do. But just to be able to kind of make that part of what you converse about in everyday life, that just opens up the different types of relationships that you can be involved in. You know, you don't necessarily have to lead with, oh, you know, I want to have sex with, you know, two other girls this weekend or, you know, whatever, whatever it may be. But just talk about your sexual, first of all, sexual health, sexual fantasies. You know, I got this new toy. Like, it is fantastic. I think women are still afraid to talk about that with other women a lot of times. So, it sounds like what your wishes would be that you see a world where essentially there's just more of a normalization of ourselves as sexual beings, that it doesn't necessarily have to be siloed into these very particular spaces. Yes, exactly. And I think we've learned that through our careers when we have to take sexual harassment training or, you know, as a man, you know, Don't look below her neckline. And don't say anything inappropriate. And don't, you know, no fraternizing. I mean, society has tried to suppress this by making rules and making us sign a piece of paper. But really, we're wired to be sexual beings. It's so freeing to be able to talk to a woman now the way that I talk to a man. And to be honest with her. And to, you know, enjoy her whole self, whether that's sexual or not. You know, there's no longer this fear that, oh no, she's going to think I'm creepy, or I'm not supposed to do that. So again, we have to retrain ourselves to understand that other people are human. Let's be human together. I can get to know you now. Women are, I still don't claim to understand, but are fascinating. I don't understand myself, so we're in the same boat. Well, it's like, Chase, it reminds me of that line from The Last Action Hero, where Arnold Schwarzenegger is like, I've just I've never talked to a woman before it's neat yeah exactly exactly and then you know the and then when people are together for 10 or 15 or 20 or more years and then all of a sudden they're back in this environment a lot of us feel like we're back in high school how do I talk to a woman how do I flirt yes you know I've my wife has been I've been with my wife I've been faithful you know how can I do this so really your whole world is turned a little upside down so again to have an expectation that everyone else is going to understand what this is by a soundbite or a single podcast episode is a little unrealistic. So I think we need to change our expectations to let's take it one step at a time. Let's be the voice out there that people can listen to. And the more voices that are out there, the more communities that are out there, then I think the better for everyone. Yeah, first of all, we appreciate you guys reaching out. You don't know how the timing is just perfect for you to reach out. and for us to have a conversation with the three of you. And it's going to get to the first question that we want to ask you. And it's very similar to what you asked us. There are these labels out here, non-monogamy, polyamory. In our community, we call it a moresome. So that's anything more than two in any way that you define it. And what our community is learning is that we don't necessarily understand this to begin with. We don't necessarily feel we're wired this way, but all of us all of a sudden we're bumping into people that we have a connection with and then all of a sudden the f word comes out which is feelings and we don't a lot of us don't really we didn't expect that we didn't we don't understand it and so maybe you all could help the dispel some of the myths or or explain to us and our listeners our our community how do you define polyamory oh wow i wasn't expecting that one actually weirdly I can take a crack at that. Great. First, yeah. And I'll start by putting so many asterisks in front of it because of the fact, just to say, get the caveat that language and terminology is shifting and changing constantly. And I think over our decade of being in this community, we've seen definitions change and we've seen arguments over definitions change. So that's all of my caveats and asterisks. But I think the, you know, the textbook definition that I tend to get that, you know, polyamory is the practice of maintaining more than one concurrent romantic and or sexual relationship at a time, and that these relationships can run a spectrum from being very heavily entwined and entangled emotionally, financially, logistically, to being not very entwined or entangled. I'll put a period on it there because, of course, I could probably, like, you know, talk for four more hours about all the ways that that looks, but that's where I would start. Or do you feel like I missed anything major, Emily and Jace? I think something that's worth clarifying, because this kind of goes into what are some of the common misconceptions that show up in terms of how it's shown in media and what kind of news article coverage there is, is that while polyamory leaves a lot of room for different types of connections and different ways that can look, the way that it actually looks in practice most often is still two-person relationships, but that are just kind of interlocking with each other. Like, you might have your wife, and then your wife has another boyfriend, and that boyfriend might have another girlfriend and another boyfriend, or whatever, right? That it's kind of like this interconnected thing versus what tends to be portrayed on TV is the like, oh, we all live together in a house. You know, all three of us, four of us, five of us, whatever. That that's actually rare. It does happen, but that's actually much more rare than kind of the interconnected relationships like that. You know, what if you closed your eyes? It's almost like they described our community and how we defined that, too. Do you think, you know, early on, Mrs. Jones and I went to, gosh, this was the second year of our podcast. We went to a conference called CatalystCon. And it was all the whole spectrum of sexuality. And honestly, I was there just to get podcast content. We got invited to a party. Yeah. I told Mrs. Jones, like, what could possibly go wrong if it's a disaster it'll be it'll be fun to talk about we were in a room with a bunch of people there was a whole lot of stuff going on in this room a lady walked in and she introduced her and i'm gonna get the wrong terminology her narrow more metamore metamore yeah thank you and maybe in a minute you can you can define all of this for sure so so i went into interview mode and i said oh my gosh how does this work like tell me are you what how do you do this why do you do this and she basically had a spreadsheet and she said well i've got four different types of needs and my primary provides this and this and somebody else provides this and this and it was almost a mechanical math well it was a matrix you know she said there's five types of intimacy and i get this one from this person and wow yeah it was it was very logical for her so and then of course since then we've come to realize that that's probably not the accepted you know definition of what it is but early on to get back to what our perceptions may be of polyamory that's what we were exposed to and that's what we thought so do you i guess my question for you is do you all believe that people are can be pre-wired for polyamory or do you think people stumble into these connections and relationships and then realize they have the capacity and a need to be close to somebody else wow okay that's a great question but emily do you want to take defining metamore first. Oh, sure. I can define metamore. It's essentially just your partner's partner. So we often will talk about that it's similar to if your spouse had a brother and that in-law basically is somebody that you don't choose, they just are somebody that is related in some way to your partner. You might have a friendship with them, you might not, but somebody that is in your partner's life that is important. I see the humanity in you and let you see it in me kind of thing. And not just, oh, there's this person out there that is a little scary to me, the idea of them being with my partner as well. Yeah, I would just add kind of the point of having a term for it at all. Because I know like in swinging in the lifestyle, you'd have the same sort of thing, right? It's the spouse of the person that I'm hooking up with right now or that I have a relationship with. But I think that having a label for it of metamore kind of gives you that way to express, This person's significant in my life, but not necessarily directly to myself. Gives a little extra nuance to that relationship. Right. Well, it's interesting that you met someone who, yeah, I wouldn't say that the whole keeping track in a spreadsheet is necessarily typical. However, that was representative of the fact that, like, Polycules, I think, have been God's gift to the whole Google suite of productivity tools, in that this is a community that loves a Google Calendar, that does love a spreadsheet, that loves a shared Google Doc, right, for keeping track of so many things. Your question about certain people being wired to get it right out the gate, that's a really interesting question because, I mean, I think at least what we know from the research is, you know, no one's pinned down a particular, like, polyamorous gene or genetic profile or stuff like that. They have been able to pin down that the people who, you know, where they're tracking, like, the big five personalities, So it's like people who score higher in openness, in adventurousness, and low in neuroticism are more likely to be people who choose a non-monogamous relationship. But in saying non-monogamous, in the research that I'm thinking of, it's not necessarily specifically polyamory. You know, they roped swinging in the lifestyle under that umbrella as well. So it's like those are things that we know is that, yes, like we could be seeing personality variation that might leave someone more predisposed to perhaps be more interested in a nontraditional relationship or perhaps more comfortable exploring a nontraditional relationship. But even within that, of course, there are those situations like you described where, yeah, people bump into this, people stumble into this, and sometimes realize, oh, actually, this is really interesting, or I can see myself really thriving here, or this has hooked me in a way I wasn't expecting. Something that I've increasingly started to notice in my practice with clients, and I would say that this has started in the last five-ish years or so, is I've gotten more people coming to me, people who are single, and they're coming from a place of, I'm not sure what I am. I'm not sure if polyamory is right for me. I'm not sure if an open relationship. I'm not sure if it's swinging. Like, I'm really not sure what it is that I want. I just know about myself that I never want monogamy again, right? or I just know about myself that I don't think I'm capable of doing monogamy. That's been something I've started to see. And I think that that's a product of, again, like the positive parts of things like swinging and things like non-monogamy and polyamory, again, touching the mainstream and more people being aware of the fact that, oh, there are options for how I conduct my relationships. But yeah, I think that's what I've seen. I mean, Emily and Jace, I don't know if you have any opinions on this whole, you know, being wired for this or not. It's the question everybody asks. And I think there's a lot of debate around it. Whatever researcher can pinpoint that will probably get a lot of grant money. Yeah, I don't know if it is pinnable, really, but maybe. Yeah. But it's definitely a thing where for some people, like, I would put myself in this category of, like, once I learned this was a thing that people can do and, like, do it ethically and learn about it and learn how to do it better, there was no going back after that point. who was just as like, oh, okay, like I found the place where I belong or like the thing that makes sense. Almost like finding a belief system or something. Whereas for other people, it's like, okay, yeah, I could see that. You know, maybe for a while, maybe forever, maybe I dip into it and out of it throughout my life. And then other people who can't get there are just like, I can't get past that. And whether that's a mental block thing or if it's a personality thing or it's built in, I don't know. So thank you for that. My next question, if I can get this out the way in my mind, through my mouth the way I want to ask it. So let me give you an example. When in a relationship like we have, if feelings crop up with another person or another couple, we talk about that first as a couple and how we're going to manage that. Can you either tell from your personal experience or from people you've given advice to, how does the conversation go? When you're in a relationship with one other person, and as you all described, this one-to-one relationship, this is not necessarily a couple-to-couple relationship. How does the conversation go with the person who develops feelings for someone and then has to convey that information to their primary partner to get them to understand what's going on before they even can process a lot of this themselves? I mean, how does that go? experience and also the experience of like working with clients starting a relationship where both people maybe already identify as polyamorous or already identify as some type of non-monogamous the conversation is going to go down very differently in that relationship right for obvious reasons because opening a relationship that has up to this point been monogamous is a whole different ballgame and it's also a lot harder in my opinion and i mean i'm sure people go through that when like they've been monogamous for most of their relationship and then decide to like start sleeping with other people right or playing with other people that there can it has to be a big mindset shift somebody has to be the freaking brave one to bring up the conversation first right or like start to ease their partner into it you know that yeah it can be really really scary the conversation around hey i'm interested in this whole polyamory thing i've seen that conversation be much more successful when it's starting from a place where somebody doesn't have like someone they have a crush on waiting in the wings because then that can create this like hyper focus on oh like you already have this person you're targeting and now all of a sudden like we need to get on this accelerated timeline to open up our relationship so that then you can pursue this person and it doesn't tend to set up the relationship for success necessarily that doesn't mean that people don't pull it off right i think it just requires a certain amount of care for sure yeah and i think if it's coming from a place where you've already got some non-monogamy going on, right? Like if you're already in the lifestyle, that conversation might be a little easier because there's a sense of, okay, we've already opened up this area of conversation. But I do think it's what Dedeker's mentioning is those situations where it's a lot harder is where it is just that, you know, I've developed all these feelings for a coworker that that kind of can come out of left field to your existing partner and feel like, oh gosh, there's been this whole thing going on behind my back that now you've got all these feelings and getting the trust and feeling of safety there in the first place is so important and that can make that more difficult i mean it's still possible but it's and i think i think we'll touch on that when we get into new relationship energy too but but the way i look at this is okay i stumble across the multi-amory podcast and i start listening and i go oh my gosh that's me you know then then what do i do with that like i'm then i've been with a partner for x number of years and now i've got hey listen to this Well, it may not mean anything to them. So, it's more of, yeah, I realize that what they're talking about is really attractive to me, but do I keep it to myself and live this way? Or do I, you know, talk to my partner and risk losing the relationship? And, you know, this is kind of a rhetorical, and it's very similar to what the conversations that we have and the conversations that people in the lifestyle have. And like Mrs. Jones said, you gotta have somebody that you have to have a trusting relationship to begin with to even sit down and Yeah, I think that's trust is the big factor there. Because again, like Jay said, if you have somebody kind of waiting in the wings, that almost feels like a breach of trust. Because the paradigm for so long has been, we are monogamous, we are not going to be with anybody else. And then it's almost as though this thing is happening behind your back that, oh, I'm interested in somebody else and developing feelings for them without your knowledge. And now I'm going to tell you about it with the intention of I will get to eventually do something with them. That feels far more challenging than just I stumbled across this podcast, or this is something that I've been thinking about for a while, and I'd really like to bring it to you because I think that this is something that could enhance our life, not just mine, but also yours, and maybe even enhance our relationship in some way as well. I think that's a very different place to come from than the other, in my opinion. But way back, like, I'm thinking about way back in the day, you know, the last time I was in a monogamous relationship and, like, my first foray into non-monogamy where we opened up our relationship, for me, it came from a place where I was noticing that I had a pattern of developing feelings for other people and then feeling really, really bad about it. Like, I never cheated. Like, I never acted on it, but, like, I would feel really bad about it. I would spiral. I'd get really depressed and felt like I was trapped in this no-win situation of, like, Like, either I do decide to act on it and cheat, which I didn't want to do, or I have to just have this crush and then just like wait for it to go away. Yeah. And so for me, you know, I did that. I mean, I didn't have a podcast to stumble onto, but it's like I stumbled onto, you know, like The Ethical Slut and Sex at Dawn and like all of these books and it really resonated. And I started looking at people's live journal entries and was just like so amazed. And then I all but created a PowerPoint presentation for my boyfriend at the time. I've thought about all these things and I've read all this and this is what we can do and yada you know and so I pitched him on it and so like that part went okay the part after it that didn't go okay was like we didn't have any of the important follow-up questions right of what does this actually mean and how do we manage feelings and how do we manage time outside of the house because also we were like in our early 20s and didn't know how to communicate and didn't really know what we wanted out of this anyway but that was the last time I've ever had to tackle that sort of situation it's very different and it's been different for me ever since then, where like all of my relationships have often started from a place of like, we're both polyamorous or we're both open to developing romantic connections with other people. So we already know that that's a given. But then there is a trickiness of checking in with your partner and being open about the fact that like, hey, actually this person that I've been going on dates with, I actually like, I really like and I kind of want to spend some more time with them, right? Or eventually letting your partner know if it's like, yeah, I exchanged I love yous with this other person, right? That Sharing that, it's not like it's necessarily, oh my god, it's this big betrayal because I wasn't expecting it, but it's like it's still delicate. These are still things that we don't have social scripts for handed to us and that we kind of have to carve out on our own. And here's something that's changed. Talk about 11 years ago. Dediker, at the end of your PowerPoint, didn't you have a list of resources that he could use to go learn about this? No, I had the same two books that I had read and some dusty live journal entries. But I mean, now we do have so many more resources. that we can pass out to give people. So, I think it's one of the big changes. And I wanted to, before we move on, that you talked about one of the things that we say is that this enhances our relationship. Our communication skills are better. Our sex life has certainly evolved, you know, and is better between the two of us. We've had more fun with sexual relationships. How does it change the relationship when you're polyamorous? And I think, Emily, you just did mention, it could be better for for both people in the relationship. So, what does that look like? Yeah, for me at least, because we contain multitudes, as it were, there are so many different facets of self. It is such an amazing thing to get to kind of discover different parts of yourself through the lens of others. And I think that that's something, especially as you said earlier, in sexual relationships and in romantic relationships, sometimes that accelerates and makes those things known more quickly than if you're just just developing kind of a slow burn friendship with someone and so it's really fun in my opinion to get to go out with a new person and have all of the exciting fun things that come with being in new relationship energy which is something we'll talk about even more in the third part but then also be able to go home to an existing partner and have all of the lovely things that come from that relationship and from the things that the two of you do well together and i think that When it's consensual, when both of you know that this is a thing that you'll both get to do, I mean, that just offers for, like, personal expansion in a way that sometimes, at least in the monogamy that I've had in my life, it often, like, almost limits me into this sort of box that I expect my partner wants from me. I've had not great monogamous relationships in my life, because often I just sort of limit myself to my perception of what it is that they want out of me instead of allowing myself to be an autonomous human who can exist without needing to limit myself in the eyes of another human. So, last question. And if you can answer this question, we can just stop. This can be our last episode. Okay. We won't have any more. Sticks are high. We've solved all the non-monogamy problems of the world. What does it take to shake these social norms that we've all been programmed with to believe over however many years or decades to get to a point where we can't even give ourselves permission to think outside of what we've been programmed to be. Yeah, well, I think that role models are a big part of that. And we've been alluding to the fact that even not that long ago, we didn't have a lot of resources and a lot of role models to turn to. And that is changing. I want the older women who have been polyamorous for a long time who are the role models, right? And like, again, this is changing as more and more people are more comfortable with being out, with taking ownership of who they are, of being out and proud, for lack of a better term. But for me, I still feel like we just need more, right? We just need more. And I know a message that we often try to drive home on our show is this sense that, like, you're not alone. You know, you're not a Like, you're not alone. There's actually a lot of people who think this way and who share these values. And, you know, the image that I always think about is the fact that, like, when you are swimming against the mainstream, that's tiring work, right? To be constantly swimming against the mainstream and coming up against, oh, yeah, here's another shitty depiction of swinging or of polyamory, or here's another, like, unintentionally rude question from someone who's close to me, or here I have to explain myself 100 times, like all that takes energy and it takes effort. But like when you're able to have other people swimming with you, it means that you're able to have those moments where like you don't need to fight so hard, right? Because other people are helping to carry you along and we can all kind of like splash in the water as we swim against the mainstream together. So that's my take. What do you think, Emily and Jace? Yeah, I think I definitely agree with having more role models, more people we can look to. I always make the case that And I think this is a little bit different with the lifestyle, because with polyamory, often the relationship kind of becomes defined by the fact that it is polyamorous now. And so there can be this pressure to be sure that as a polyamorous person, you're always portraying only the good, shiny, positive parts of it. Because as soon as anything goes wrong in your relationship, everyone's going to go, oh, well, it's because you were polyamorous, obviously. That's why it all fell apart. When we see monogamous relationships break up, no one ever says, oh, well, it's because you tried to be monogamous, what you expect, even though those two things happen just as often, right? And so, I think getting to that point where we can have both the good and bad examples, like I can look at monogamous friends and go, they seem like they have a cool relationship and definitely don't want to do what they're doing, right? That we can kind of have that variety. I think it'd be nice to have that with non-monogamous people. monogamy and fidelity and stuff is just there is no other choice this is what you have to do even if i might wish there were something else there's just not but like once you find whatever piece it is whether that's the you know swinging lifestyle kind of thing or if it's about having romantic relationships with other people even if they're not sexual or it's about exploring your queerness or something like the other pieces start to come with it and that maybe that's why we see some of this overlap between the communities as well because it's like all the social norms start to fall apart or at least have a weaker hold and then eventually you're topless and then you unraveled the hole which is awesome but as you said the kids are starting to become more okay i think like the younger generations absolutely are questioning the societal norms more and caring i think a little bit less maybe what people think about them in terms of oh it needs to look a specific way or everything needs to stay as it all I am hoping that as time goes on that'll become the norm and not just all of these monogamy centric monogamy focused ways of living that we've had for so so long okay so you're saying it's possible it's just gonna be a lot of work hopefully yeah maybe not in our lifetimes like you said yeah but we're on the way but we're on the way we're on the way yeah okay now you've given mrs. Jones and I a little therapy I'm gonna open you up to our our entire community so you can give the rest of us therapy so let me describe to you what we think is happening you know people say you shouldn't be surprised that people in your community are developing feelings for each other because it's we say we're social first we're social and then we're sexy you know we want to get to know the people we want to get to know connections typically though what we're running into is that we come into non-monogamy as a team it's mrs jones and i against the world. And anything that we go through, we go through together. So, we meet a couple. There's a four-way connection. We really have a good time. Then all of a sudden, one of the or two of the four begin to have feelings for each other. So, already I think you're at a little bit of a different intersection with polyamory than you all would normally experience. I think this is the delineation point. Like, typically, in the swinging lifestyle, it's just all good, clean, sexy, fun. And you're not really supposed to catch feelings. Like, you can be friends with people, but don't fall in love with them. Like, you're in love with me, and you're not supposed to fall in love with anybody else. That's kind of like the mindset of what the swinging lifestyle kind of is about, or what we thought it was about. And some people open up to polyamory with that assumption too. Of like, oh yeah, we can do this, we can have relationships, but they're always going to have to be casual and you can't fall in love with them. Maybe you can like them, but not love. People do come in with that same idea sometimes. So what we see is, gosh, I hope my partner falls in love with the other person so we can continue to do this. Because we're a team, right? We don't branch off and do this individually. So there's a little bit of pressure on the last one to the buffet. So to speak, but then it's, and then over a period of time though, we don't realize how new relationship energy has impacted the way that I'm behaving, the decisions that I'm making, how I'm treating my primary partner, my, my spouse of X number of years. And, and it causes, as you would imagine, a lot of difficulty, but other people talk about how much fun it is and, and how they love these feelings. And then people don't really know. how to handle or identify new relationship energy. And so over a period of time, well, guess what? Whether it's a year or 18 months later, that seems to settle down. I got my wits about myself again. And hopefully I've learned a little bit about what that is, which is a different feeling than a deep commitment of love for a lifetime for somebody. So I guess where you could help us is, how do you all manage? How do you all how do you all work through get your arms around process new relationship energy because we need a lot of help there yeah i always think of head in the clouds feet on the ground so how do i allow myself and also allow my partners right to experience honestly one of the best natural highs we can get in this lifetime the high that chemical high of falling in or falling in love or whatever it is that you want to call the experience of new relationship energy, right? Because I do think that it can backfire when we go in from a state of denial, right? Of maybe thinking that's not going to happen to me or I'm not capable of being got like that, right? Or if it does happen, I can shut it down really quickly. Like it's not helpful to go in a state of denial because often when it's repressed, it can kind of punch through even stronger. So, like, I do think it's important to have a sense of allowance around, like, letting yourself feel those things, but then there's the feet on the ground part, right? Which is, like, how do I not blow up my life and my relationships because I'm, like, all hopped up on, like, brain chemicals over this new person, right? I want to make a callback to, you said something much earlier in the episode about, like, when people are new to this, like, if they've been in a monogamous relationship for a long time, and then all of a sudden, like, like they're going to parties and like flirting with people how they can feel like a teenager again right with the excitement and the insecurities and like that's literally what happens on a chemical level too it's like you think about if you were sober for 20 years and then all of a sudden you take a shot of tequila for the first time that that's going to hit you really really hard and that for some people it is literally your brain has not experienced this chemical maybe since you were first falling in love with your spouse and so it can hit different when it's been a while and our culture also does encourage us to put a lot of like really magical thinking on it you know and so yeah so sometimes people can blow up their lives gonna be like oh my god i haven't felt this in 20 years this must mean this person's actually my soulmate right or i need to like really manufacture this whole situation like try to get my spouse to fall in love with their spouse that i can still fall in love with them and stuff like that and it's something we say on the show all the time is like don't sign anything in the first year of nre don't sign a rental agreement with anybody don't sign a shared cell phone plan don't sign a Adoption papers on a dog or a child together, you know, like the best that you can do, just like don't try to make any life-altering decisions within that first year. Not in the sense of don't let yourself enjoy this person, don't let yourself love this person, but just, you know, don't make any major decisions. And then another part of keeping your feet on the ground, I really, the resource that I recommend to people all the time is Martha Cowpey. She's been on our show a couple times. She's a therapist and she put out this book that's called a clinical toolkit for therapists and their clients and i think some people might want to skip over it because if they see polyamory they're like oh that's not for me but in it she has this wonderful exercise that's called how i plan to handle nre where she essentially walks you through with a series of prompts around things like what are the things you value most what are the activities you value most like who are the people that you value most that you want to stay in contact with how do you want your partner to feel about your non-monogamous relationship basically letting you tease out what your value system is so that you can have a sense of even if I'm really excited about the new shiny I know the actionable ways I'm still going to be showing up to maintain my integrity and maintain my relationships. One piece that I just wanted to add to this I don't know how much you've already talked about this in your recent episodes but I think for me and maybe this is just being the son of a neuroscientist but to me it helps to understand a little bit about the chemical and hormonal stuff that's going is that these hormones evolve to happen this way to try to help us fall in love with each other so that we constantly want to be around a person early on in our relationship so that we can develop enough shared history and understanding of each other to then bond that then we can stay together longer term. And so, you know, we're in a situation here where, you know, we need to be aware of that and understand what those chemicals are doing. And I say this also as someone who has depression, that I found that But understanding the neurological part of that actually can really help me with that too. Like there's this sense of I feel a certain way but I also understand a certain amount of that as chemicals that are happening in my brain. And so it like gives me just this little bit of being able to like step back from it. Yeah. And kind of observe the feelings instead of just being right in the middle of them and swept away by them. Yes. So what you just described is what we're trying to help people understand. The separation between and the energy that you're feeling. And the book that you recommended will definitely recommend as a resource. But what we're also looking for is, for example, in the swinging lifestyle, if you as a husband have given your wife permission to have sex with somebody else and you're enjoying that, but all of a sudden you have a new love interest with new relationship energy and you don't want her with anybody, that's a clue. You know, there's a little bit of an indicator there. Or, if the person that you have this energy with wants to also play with other people, and you have a problem with that, you know, there are these behaviors that, the situations that come up, that we try to help people understand. This could be a red flag that your neurons, your brain, you know, is taking, is holding you hostage. Yeah, something I find myself saying to people a lot is NRE can create this sense of urgency. I have this feeling and like I have to act on it or I have to confess or I have to manufacture some kind of situation and urgency in general is pretty much never your friend. Like unless you need to get out of a burning building, in most situations urgency is not really your friend. And so it's funny that sometimes it's actually really important to to think about emotional regulation. And we're often talking about emotional regulation in the context of you're really angry or you're really sad or you're really stressed or you're really anxious. But I think that feeling all hopped up on NRE can also be a situation where it's like, you might need to regulate a little bit. And again, not in the same way that we don't want to take anger or anxiety or sadness and just like squish it down, pretend it's not there, try to distract. It's like you want to acknowledge the feelings while also not necessarily letting them be in the driver's seat of, your life and your behavior yeah and i and i want to i think that occur i think it was you that said earlier that this glorious feeling that it's not drugs or alcohol you know it's it's naturally produced and why not be able to enjoy that so i don't want to come across as being all negative about it but can you talk from that perspective like what are what are the positive things about this and how can a relationship benefit from an energy like new relationship energy yeah Yeah, I mean, the ways that it's played out in my own life and the ways that I've seen it play out in other people's lives, that there really is something magical about, you know, I think about there's this comedian that I like a lot, Mike Birbiglia, and he describes falling in love like this idea that like, you have this secret, and then you discover that somebody else has the same secret. And the secret is that like, you're both awesome, you know, and it's like, Oh, my God, you're awesome. I'm awesome, too. Did you know I'm awesome, too? Yes, you're awesome, too. Right? Right? And it's just, like, it's so wonderful. And wonderful, like, what it can do for things like your self-esteem and your confidence or your sex drive, right? To have this experience anew, potentially many times throughout your life of, oh my god, like, somebody else sees me and they like what they see and, like, that feels really, really good. And I find it's really hard to keep that separate from bleeding into your other relationships, right? That sense of feeling energized and feeling alive. I know a lot of people report that they, I think, similar to the lifestyle, that it's like you can get this energy, the sexual energy boost, right, of being desired or perceiving that you're attractive that then you bring back into your more established relationships, that they get to enjoy that juice as well. But for myself personally, I know a really important piece of being on the other side of it, right, of like having a partner who's experiencing NRE is, for me, it's really important, again, to have that sense of trust. And also to, especially, you know, Jason and I have been together for, like, 200 years. And so I've gotten to experience him dating other people multiple times. Sometimes that results in a really strong NRE connection, sometimes not. But, like, I have the benefit of having experienced him fall in love with other people and then, like, still be here, still show up to the relationship, like, me not feeling betrayed or feeling dropped in any way by him experiencing NRE. And that's something that, like, I also try to do. I've been better at sometimes in the past and worse at other times, right? But I do think that's also really important. Like, for my time, for myself personally, when I've gotten really anxious and insecure in relationships has sometimes been when I'm with a partner where the relationship is still relatively new and I don't know how this person acts if they fall in NRE with somebody else. I don't know if they're gonna catch feelings for somebody else and then completely drop off. off the face of the earth and like stop communicating with me or stuff like that so like there's definitely still a riskiness that is part of the developing trust and attachment and getting to know somebody that you're dating is like how are they going to act when they're addled on brain chemicals right like are they still going to show up for me and i think you you blew right by a very important point and that is you said you've experienced this over and over and over again boy when we get to be mid-career mid-life We've mastered our education. We've mastered our career. You know, we're parents or we're successful at whatever we do. We're mature adults. We have mature friendships. And then all of a sudden, we're thrown back into this middle school, high school emotional cauldron of excitement, confusion, all these emotions, these hormones. And we're not used to having to go all the way back to that point in our lives and say, I'm an adult. Like, I should be able to handle this, but I've not seen it before. So I like the fact that, and I think what we tell people is, if you're going to give this a try, and Mrs. Jones and I had this conversation extensively, like, are we in this for the long haul? Is this just a blip or something that we're going to go try? And a lot of people will email us and they'll say, hey, we had our first experience and it was great. Or, hey, we just had our first experience and it was terrible, we're going to quit. And I say, look, both of those data points are bad because if you had a great experience, your expectation is they're all going to be great, and they're not. And if you had a bad experience, your expectation is going to be they're all going to be bad, and they're not. So, give yourself a chance. You know, work through what you need to work through, and it comes back to your relationship and trust, like we said at the outset. What am I going through? I mean, when I had experienced jealousy at my age, I'm like, I'm not a jealous person. You know, what is it? What is this that I'm feeling? And it took my wife to slap me around a little bit to really understand what was going on. Well, I liked what Emily said earlier. You said something about it. The personal growth that you experience, right? Opening your relationship can create, you learn new things about yourself, right? So now your partner's learning new things about you. And in return, the partner's learning new things about themselves. But I think what it does for your relationship is it just, Some of this new relationship energy is positive because it comes into your relationship. Like, we always say reconnection sex is best. You know, so after we have a play experience with others, when we come back together as a couple, like, that sex is just a little bit sweeter. Yeah, I've absolutely found that to be the case as well, that it's really fun to, after, you know, my partner has an experience with someone else, or vice versa, that we're able to come back and have sex together and have that really be a sense of reconnection. And, yeah, talking about having some of those feelings that you didn't recall were there or never knew were there or having these new experiences, I mean, I think it is kind of beautiful that throughout the course of our lives, no matter how old we are and how much we've been through and how well we think we know ourselves, that we can have new experiences and learn new things about ourselves and our partners. And I think NRE is a part of that, just figuring out, okay, I can have these experiences. again. I remember, like, Chase, I feel like I heard you say a few, maybe a year ago or something, you were like, God, am I ever going to feel NRE again? And, you know, the fact that I think absolutely you will, and that we all have the capacity to do that, and that that is a really beautiful thing, and that even if your partner is the one who is experiencing it now and that's putting a strain on you because all of this is new and feelings of jealousy may come up, there's always the possibility that you're going to be in that seat as well and you're going to have the opportunity to feel these amazing things too and then hopefully from the experiences that you've had you'll get the opportunity to more easily help your partner through any challenges that they may have. Yep and I think lastly the inverse like when you're with another couple sometimes we look at another couple and we only see their exterior we get to know them a little bit again they're successful they're you know mature in life you don't know what's going on inside their head. You don't know what kind of energy they're dealing with. And so, we have this misperception that, oh, they got their shit together. You know, look at them like, no, something doesn't seem right. Other people are likely struggling with a lot of the same things that we struggle with as well. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that kind of desire to compare ourselves to other people can come up in a lot of different ways, right? In that sense, it can come up couple versus couple, kind of like comparing our mess to what we perceive as them having it all together. Or in polyamory, often this will come up of like, I'm comparing myself to the other person that my partner's dating, right? Of like, oh, well, he's more successful than I am, or he's taller than I am, or whatever it is, right? That's easy to do. Or I think that this can be hard if you're looking at people who are just more experienced than you are, that I think sometimes if people are talking to, like, if guys are talking to me, and they're newer at non-monogamy polyamory, and I'm kind of talking about how, like, oh my gosh, I love when Dedeker, you know, has a solid relationship where she wants to go on trips with that person and, like, spend the night over at their house, because I love getting my space to myself sometimes, and, you know, I get to catch up on my shows that she doesn't like to watch, and I just have a great time, I love it. Like, I kind of like it when she's dating more people than I am, and for them, because they're newer in this, And more of the thing at the forefront of their mind is the fear, right? Because they haven't had that repetition of seeing, okay, I can trust this partner. I can trust them to not just leave me at the first sign of excitement somewhere else. That can feel like I could never get there, so I should probably not try. Like, this isn't meant for me. Like, we can kind of overly compare that way, too. So, yeah, I mean, anything we can do to both acknowledge everyone's got problems, but then also, even if they don't, that doesn't mean that we, can't get to that point eventually too. Right. Yeah. Something that I did want to toss out there when you were talking about NRE, just like a couple big ones that come up for the person who's experiencing the NRE, because often you're the one who's the most befuddled, right? Like you're the one who's got all the chemicals going on that a couple of things to keep in mind. One is that what Dedeker said is that don't sign anything in the first year tip. Think about kind of the thing we've seen a few times is the person who's does blow up their life because they open up their relationship maybe they've dated a few people and then they finally find someone they really connect with and they feel all that NRE and then it's like I'm gonna divorce my wife move out of the house with my kids like be with this person because they must be my soulmate kind of like Dedeker was saying like we've been socialized to over prioritize that feeling of falling in love it's all the Disney movies that all you need is that and then everything's easy from that point on is just to kind of keep that in mind like don't do that don't blow up your life don't Don't, you know, jump and make a change. Let that feeling wear off, you know, and you'll get to experience it for what it is. But the other one, just from a more practical point of view, is if you are at the point where you're seeing someone separate from your partner, right? So there's this experience of I'm going off on a date or we're having sex in the other room or whatever it is, and that's that person who triggers those NRE feelings in you and you're all excited about it, to realize that you're kind of buzzing after that. And if you go straight from that to with your partner who's not been experiencing that, there's like a big disconnect in the energy you're coming in with. And they're like, whoa, I'm not ready to handle that. All my feelings, I've been sitting here feeling alone, feeling scared, whatever. And now you're coming in with all this. Oh my gosh, isn't life amazing? This is so great. That is a tip that I give people sometimes is find some way to give yourself a like, come down period. So if you've gone out on a date, somewhere else. It's like don't go straight home from that depending on time of day. I don't know, stop at a coffee shop or go for a little walk or just do something to kind of like... Decaf. Yeah. Right, yeah, decaf coffee. There you go. Yeah. Or like listen to some music in your car or something before you come in or like something to just kind of like regulate. Get back to a little bit more of a normal state so that you can meet your partner where they are. And if you're, you know, at a club or something and you just did this in the other room, maybe that could be a little harder. I don't know if the two of you have any tips for how you might do that. But just something to keep in mind. You want to meet your partner again closer to the same wavelength. It just makes that easier. I think that's really valuable advice. And like you said, if you're a couple and you're at a club and you just had individual experiences, you don't have that opportunity. Just have the awareness that you're bringing a lot more to the table than your partner is at that moment. And just try to dial it back a little bit or build in some forgiveness. that they're not as happy for you as you thought they would be in that moment. Yeah. And sometimes they might be, but not always, right? I think one of the things that we've learned, whether it's new relationship energy or it's a situation, a play situation that didn't go well, we've learned to think, you know what, let's talk about this in about three days. Or, you know, we'll do a Sunday morning walk. And usually on our Sunday morning walk, that's when we give each other permission to, you know, kind of unload or comment on how things have been going, but it really does give both of us some time to process what's going inside of our heads so that when we do talk about it as a couple, we're not talking at each other. Not emotionally charged. Yeah, we're not as emotionally charged, right. I'm a slow processor, and it took Mr. Jones a while to figure out that I wasn't pouting, I was processing. And sometimes, like, I would be, I'm way more emotional than he is. So, I, I knew that I needed to keep it in until I could logically convey my feelings instead of just, like, vomiting all out of my emotions. And then he'd have to come up with a shovel and, like, clean up my emotional mess. Yeah, we call that chewing versus spewing. Yeah. There you go. Some people are the spewers, right? That it's, like, they need to process in real time and, like, their partner needs to be skilled at catching the mess. And then, yeah, the chewers, that we need to digest it first. So here Dedeker is the chewer, and Emily and I are both spewers. Yeah, much more. Yeah. Well, first of all, again, I want to thank you guys for giving us the opportunity to chat with you. I've learned a whole lot since, you know, listening to a couple of your podcasts, and the conversation that we've had tonight has been really helpful, but more importantly, I think a lot of our listeners and a lot of our community are going to learn a whole lot. So thank you very much for taking the time to have us on. It's been a lot of fun and it's been very enlightening. So we appreciate your time. Thank you. Yeah, I hope the same for our audience to kind of get more of a range of perspectives and see like maybe that's a better fit for me. Like that's what we're always trying to get people to is just look at their options. Yeah, I'm so glad that we can make this work. Where can our listeners find more of you two and your work? So the best thing to do is go to our website. W-E-G-O-T-T-A-T-H-I-N-G dot com. That's where you can also find our podcast on Apple Podcasts or anywhere out there. You can follow us on X at WeGotAThing and also on Instagram at WeGotAThing as well. So thank you for that. And we'll be cross-posting each other's stuff when this episode comes out. So if you go to our Instagram, you'll find them and vice versa. Absolutely. The best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is in the episode discussion channel. in our Discord server or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com slash join. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Instagram at multiamory underscore podcast. Hey, this is Jessica. If this episode stirred something in you, curiosity, comfort, or that quiet, I've been looking for this feeling, don't stop here. Go listen to episode 131, Finding Your Tribe and the We Got a Thing community. the conversations go deeper, the connections get real, and you discover that this journey was never meant to be taken alone. Because if you're listening, chances are you've got a thing. A craving for more honesty, more freedom, and a space where you feel understood without having to justify who you are. And we've got a thing, a thriving community built exactly for like-minded couples and individuals ready to explore, grow, and connect with support that's as deep as the desire that brought you here. Head to WeGotAThing.com and come inside, because a thing you've been craving is not just a fantasy, it's a real community, and we're waiting for you. Follow us on at WeGotAThing on Instagram and X, that's W-E-G-O-T-T-A-T-H-I-N-G, for a glimpse into the energy, inspiration, and intention behind everything we do. I can't wait for you, I can't