Episode 141: What Newbies Need to Know and Veterans Need to Remember

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey, you teenagers out there. If you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello, everyone. I'm Mr. Jones. And I'm Mrs. Jones. And I'm Misha from Expansive Connection. And we want to welcome you to episode 141 of the We Got a Thing podcast. And this is actually take two. We are all set to go. I'll edit that out. Yeah, fortunately, we only got like three minutes into it. And I realized I hadn't hit the record button. So it's not only the newbies that are, you know, you think you've done this many times before and you don't screw up. Well, I think we're going to find tonight when we talk about newbies that many of us experienced folks still make the same mistakes or still need to know the same things that you're going to share with us. That's right. But anyway, we're glad you're here. And that gave us five extra minutes to talk to you. Yeah. I'll take it. I'll take it. And we get you guys every now and then. So I'll take it. So I'm going to ask you to share your story again. You were just sharing a story with me before we started recording. And everyone should know ahead of time what you just experienced in case there's anything that comes out of your mouth that doesn't sound exactly coherent. Okay. I was sharing that my boyfriend had a really hard day at work today. And so he came home and I was like, great. like it was like an hour ago and i was like oh let's give him a really great back massage he can take a 30 minute nap and so he had just got this like cbd oil and so i was like we'll try this and i'm like lathering the cbd oil and he's like you know hey make sure you're kind of like moderate with it because i still have to do some paperwork afterwards it's like no worries i'm just like putting it all over his body and then i'm starting with the like big massager that we have and i'm working on his back and like just being all loving and then like eight minutes and i'm like oh shit i'm not wearing gloves and i have to do a podcast So I finished the massage and like 10 minutes later, my eyelids are like, we can take a nap. And I was like, no. So I am drinking coffee. So if I sound really fast, it is because I am well caffeinated because I was like, oh shit. But here we are and it's going to be wonderful. Yes. I know. I was telling Michelle, I feel like I need like a martini or something so I can catch up with her. I mean, like I'm boring. I just came straight out of work and drinking water all All right. Well, it's good to have you back. And before we get into our topic, which we're excited to do for the newbies, but introduce yourself in case there's anybody out there that doesn't know you yet or anything about Expansive Connection or anything personally you want to share before we get started. Yeah. So I am one of the coaches with Expansive Connection. And there's four of us now. And we're an online and sometimes in person coaching practice that deals mainly with E&M, all things E&M basically. We've started doing retreats as well. We've been doing hotel takeovers where we go in and we teach workshops as well. We've done a couple with you all, which has been pretty awesome. And we do individual coaching, couples coaching, more sums coaching. So we just are really committed to improving relationships within the E&M community. And then something, I guess, kind of personal about me. I've been walking my own E&M journey since 2019. And I have one kind of like anchor partner. And then I have a constant comment that I have been with for actually longer than my anchor partner. And then in the middle of all of that, we do some lifestyle stuff. So I like to just swing myself up and down the continuum of UNM. It makes me very happy. And yeah, that's about it. That's where I'm at right now. Well, that's exciting. I think every time we talk to you, you're doing something a little bit different. You know, which is really good for your job. You know, it gives you a broader sense. It's research, right? Yeah, a broader experience. It just happens to be incredibly fun and gratifying. You can relate to more people and you get to make a lot of and share that with people. I do make a lot of mistakes. This happens. I also get that whole, are you psychoanalyzing me right now? This looks like you're doing research. And so I'm always working on things like, I'm not doing research. I'm totally doing research, but I'm working really hard for it to not feel that way. And so, yeah, that's my own little shtick where they're like, put the no-put down and just sit here with me. And I'm like, all right, I'm sitting. So yes, I do make a lot of mistakes, but I'm always like, how do I use this? Well, I think that just makes you a better teacher. Thank you. That's why we're so good. Because we made all the mistakes too. And we're going to get into what newbies must know when entering the lifestyle. But my disclaimer before we start this is this doesn't mean that if you're not a newbie, you don't need to know this stuff or be reminded of it. Because I think sometimes we who have done this a while, we get a little and we let things slip a little bit. And then we find ourselves right back in front of a lot of the things that you want to talk about tonight. And we've... Well, we're kind of preaching to ourselves because, you know, we're just getting back into the lifestyle after being, you know, on pause for over a year. So, like, I thought it'd be like, oh, like, get back up on the bike and just start riding again. And it's not as seamless as a reentry as I thought it would be. Yeah. Yeah. I often find that like depending on where I am and the context of relationships I'm at I'm always coming back at some point to this whether it's I've added a new partner who's never done lifestyle stuff before or we've closed it down for a little bit and then reopening it up again later on like I'm always starting back over from square one on some levels depending on my partner's comfortability so and also my And sometimes I don't have the bandwidth for things and then I have to start all over again. So it's not always done. So yeah. Or there might be people listening who have given this a try and then stopped and want to restart just because they had a bad experience or they weren't properly prepared. So there's six things that you've got that you want to talk about with us today. So we're going to turn it over to you and start the conversation going. So where would you like to start? Well, I always like to tell people where we're going. that we're gonna be looking at and then we'll go back to number one if you're cool with that yep so the first things that we'll be looking at is radical honesty as the starting point um shifting mindsets from specialness to uniqueness number three is navigating jealousy with conscious awareness four boundaries agreements and people pleasing guilty as charged five navigating different paces in the journey And I kind of smushed five and six together. So six is also co-creating evolving agreements. So I broke them down because I think they all kind of feed into each other. So there's no like right or wrong way to start in this. But to me, this just makes more like logical one, two, three, four or five cents. Yeah. So I'm really interested to hear how regular honesty is not good enough. It needs to be radical honesty. Actually, this is something that I feel like I didn't coin. It's been the people in my chair who have told me about like this is day one the thing that they encounter from their partners and in their relationships. And it's like literally the carrot that keeps them going through E&M is the honesty that they find and the depth and the radical honesty because they think they've been honest with their partner before. And then they open the E&M door and they're like we have an honesty here we've never had before. There's a vulnerability here that we've never had before and they love it and because they want more of it they're like we'll walk through this scary door that has some dark lights down the hall you know and it keeps them coming back for more and so this one isn't actually something that I would say it's been the repetitive nature of it throughout all of the people I've talked to. And don't you think there needs to be honesty with yourself as well before you're honest with your partner because a lot of this a lot of this comes up you know the perception before we get into this is it's you know it's it's uh cd it's it's bad you know there's negative connotation it's going to hurt me and sometimes if we're programmed that way we can't even be honest with ourselves about why it is that we're doing this so being i i like the fact that you don't use radical communication because that's really vague but honesty does bring that level of vulnerability with yourself and with your partner and i think what we learned is having sex with other people. It sure does make everything else in life easier to talk about. That's very true. Yeah, in my like vanilla world where I'm a therapist, one of the reasons I decided to specialize in sex therapy was because I was like, if you can get people talking about their sex life, you can walk through just about any other door in their world. Because sometimes for most people, that's like, like the most like, it's not scary, but it's definitely like a private, do I hold my cards closed? How much do I let you see? And so once you've been able to explore that room with them, it's like everything else kind of feels easier. Right. Well, and I think like the whole idea of radical honesty, it's like, okay, I've never told you this before, honey, because I don't think I realized it myself. You know, like the way I feel about something or a desire I have or what I want, you know, in the bedroom, either with my partner or whatever. with a lifestyle partner, right? So I think it's learning to be honest with yourself. To me, that's the radical part because that's the aha moments. And then it's kind of exciting to share them with your partner. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think that honesty is foundational for trust, for connection, and relational growth. I think honesty with yourself, like you said, is so important because then it's like, hey, not only am I being honest about the relationship, I want to be honest about me which creates authenticity and allows your partner to begin to trust your yeses and nos right as you are honest about where you are and you were able to say yes to some things and to firmly say no to things they can trust both of those if i can trust your no i can definitely trust your yeses um so it just creates deep honesty and the deeper the honesty the deeper the intimacy and that sense of safety because that's the thing also that helps us move forward in this is that sense of safety we're co-creating One of the things that I enjoy about reading your outline is some of the stuff I understand, but a lot of it I like to guess of what I think it is. But embodied visualization I struggled with. So you're going to have to help me there. So with embodied visualization, I was talking about how I think it's really another word for it is like acting is at fright. or the bed and running through visual scenes in your head of the things that might feel really scary to you or might feel a little threatening or things that make you like break out into a little bit of sweat and just embody that whole experience let all those emotions build up um even if it's the skited one to steal a term from glenn and doyle where you have this scared and excited together like maybe you're going on a date for the first time with a couple that you're both equally attracted to you're excited about it but you're also kind of scared you know um and so when you embody that and visualize it maybe like things will pop up for you that maybe wouldn't have done before if you hadn't fully embodied that experience and you can say things like hey when we go in to have dinner actually i think like because i feel so reactive in my body like i'm sweating a little bit my heart started racing a little bit do you mind sitting really close so our thighs can touch so i can we can co-regulate a little bit i can steal a little bit of your strength and your comfort while we're sitting there. And so you can ask for things like after you've kind of felt this whole thing together. We're just trying to help identify emotional gaps or areas where you might need more support or to establish more rules or come up with boundaries. Like, you know, maybe when we're like hanging out with everybody, I don't care if you guys make out on the front seat of the car. I don't care if like things go a little further, but if you guys hold hands, I just envisioned that in my head. And that might send me into like a wicked spiral. So maybe not that part. Yeah. Well, I wish I would have heard that 11 years ago. That hit home a little bit. But the other thing that I think we missed or I messed up on is when I was doing this visualization as a guy, I spent most of my time envisioning myself with somebody else. And I didn't spend a lot of time with all of a sudden. And realizing, wait a minute, another guy might be having sex with my wife. And even though initially the idea of it, I think most of my thought process was evolved around me. And I think a lot of guys get, spend a lot of time trying to get their partner into this space. And then when they get there, they're like, oh, shit, I forgot to think about what it's going to be like for me to see that. Yeah, no. I hear that a lot, actually. Or it's like, you know, I thought we were great. I was just excited for the fun part. And I didn't think about things that might be triggering for me. I only thought about the fun parts. What are we talking about with full circle experience with honesty? So with a full circle experience with honesty, I'm just trying to make sure that we are able to, like, have the honesty, have the hard conversations, and then it circles back around, like it's like feeding itself. Like the hard conversations, the yeses, the noes, the boundaries, being able to emotionally prepare yourself to ask for things helps you to then create more honesty, right? Like I want it to be like a big circle. Like you go through the hard bits and it comes back around to it being a good thing, which leads to more radical honesty. Right. Yeah. So it becomes easier to start the conversation when you've been through that cycle a couple of years. Yes. Yes. And it also reinforces that this doesn't lead to bad things. Like this type of radical honesty leads to good things. Okay. So number one was radical honesty. Number two. Number two is shifting mindsets from specialness to uniqueness. So in this particular relationship dynamic, right, we go from feeling like we are a person's only everything. You know, I'm a person's only sexual partner. I'm a person's I'm the only person that they get to do post-coital snuggles with. Or I'm the only person who gets to wear a lingerie for you that I'm excited that you're going to like. And what I hear from a lot of newbies is they get stuck here because they're scared of losing that specialness. They're scared of what happens, what makes us different from everybody else. How do we make sure we don't just become roommates if I'm sharing this special space with someone else? I want to acknowledge that for some people, it does feel like a death of specialness, right? I want to validate that. I also want to say there's an opportunity here to shift from specialness to uniqueness. And so it's looking at like, how are you a very unique individual person? There's no one else like you. There's nowhere your partner can go and find you again. No one that has your lived experience, your perspective on life, the way you handle things, maybe the way you make them laugh during the fight. No one else can do that quite the way that you can. And so letting go of this idea of specialness, you know, I just want to make it a little easier for people to say, like, it's not like you let it go and there's nothing else. The uniqueness of you is just as important. This gives you the opportunity to maybe concentrate more on what's secret in the relationship, but something that only is created between the two of you. And then making sure that whatever choice you make in E&M is reflective of that specialness. Like, yeah, we're going to do this. And I get to remind myself, like, this part, when we get back home, that's just us. We were just talking about this a little bit. We just got back from a vacation to Greece, and we went to a club two different nights. And we were with one other couple that we're friends with. But as we were coming home and we were reflecting on that, Yeah, almost the specialness becomes, can you believe we did that? Can you believe we did this together? Can you believe what some of the things that we've done and what we've done with our relationship? So that's a specialness that we probably would not have experienced if we hung on to those, quote unquote, special things that we, those physical things that we did with each other, this lifestyle that we've chosen and just the crazy, even after 12 years, I'm like, that was crazy. but we had such a good time and because we're getting back into it like mrs jones was saying it was like it was like starting over again it was really the buzz was in the air we were meeting people we didn't know we didn't speak the language in the country you know it was just it was fun yeah it was fun i would say that this this is uh probably the conversation i have the most often with newbies like you know at a bar or in the pool on vacation, I like the way you explain this. I'm going to totally steal this going forward because they're so afraid to take that first physical step, right? And now, you know, knowing that it's still going to always be unique between you, that it's not replacing anything or it's not letting go of anything. It's just kind of redefining it. And so I think that there's also kind of this fear in this, that you're going to have to compete on some level, but because it's not the same way that you would compete in a monogamous structure, it feels kind of enigmatic on how you would even compete in this space. And so I just want to give a lot of people like grace, like there's no competition. Right. Right. Like no one else can bring exactly what you bring. Right. So we're competing together. We're a team. Yes. You know, so the things that we're doing, even though we may split apart and be with different people, we're doing this together. So it makes, I mean, you know, you got the right word. It's special. I mean, I think it's still special and it's unique because we're doing it together. Okay. So number two was shifting mindsets from specialness to uniqueness. And Mrs. Jones is going to totally steal that. Go for it. I like how in number three, you talk about jealousy, Like I've said before, I'm not a person who feels compersion. I really wish I did, but I don't. And so I look at it from a space of like, it's probably not going to happen. I find the context really sexy. I'm going to eventually enjoy this sexually, but the compersion piece, I'm not that non-selfish. Like I'm just not. And so I, I like to just state for people who don't have that part that it's okay. And that we can navigate it kind of like any other emotion. And like our society is built up in a way for us to say, oh, that's jealousy. You should never feel that. Let's do all the things. So we avoid feeling this. And so I want to normalize that jealousy is a natural emotion, just like joy, just like sadness. So let's not avoid it. It's not something to hide from. I fully believe it's an umbrella emotion, kind of like anger. And when you sit with it long enough, little other things start to bubble up. And so you might even have some body sensations that come with that. I think a lot of people have a physical body response to jealousy. And so sitting with that in curiosity, instead of like resistance or like, how do I get rid of this as soon as possible is a really great way to learn more about yourself. Yeah, when these two things, so you might want to, compersion is just enjoying when your partner is receiving pleasure or with somebody else. So you're putting compersion and jealousy together. And the interesting thing that comes to mind in society, when we stand at the altar and we say, you know, you're mine, forsaking all others, you know, and we're trained that you are going to be my only one, I'm going to be your only one. So whether that's 5 years, 10 years, 40 years, whatever, that's what you're thinking. Not only that, but it usually doesn't enter your mind at all to think that you're going to enjoy your partner being with somebody. So those things coming together mean, I think what you're saying is whether it's jealousy or compersion, even when you're sitting in this embodied visualization, the reality that you get yourself into you really don't know yeah which which one or two of these things is really going to take over and it's and when you people say they're not experiencing jealousy then they're probably experiencing compersion so it's it's usually one of those yeah those two things and boy did did i not understand that when we got into this like when i started i don't even think the word compersion had hit my ears or anybody else's i think it's kind of like one of those is relatively kind of newer terms out there. Not that the feeling hasn't existed for forever, but like the term for it is kind of new. Yeah. I mean, when we first started talking about getting in the lifestyle, I remember saying, I'm an only child. I've never really had to share. So I don't think this is going to really go over well with me. I thought I was going to be the jealous one. And from the get-go, I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, he is so hot when he is having sex with somebody else from this angle. You know, because when you're having sex, you only get to see one angle of your partner. And it's like, oh, I like to see him from all the sides. And it's fun to watch your partner have fun. Yeah, we're in it for like the sexy goodness of it just as much as we're in it for the changing parts of ourselves. So that is amazing. Yeah. So what do you mean by time jealousy? So time jealousy is this thing where time is our only real resource, right? So when we see our partners with other people, a lot of times when you really piecemeal it out, it's like, actually, I wasn't upset that you were talking with that person at all. Like, I'm happy you were having a great time. It's that you spent 30 minutes talking to them. You didn't turn back around to chat with me or to check in with me. or anything like you were just so absorbed that you completely forgot about me and so now all of this time you've spent with that person that's the part i'm actually really upset about and that we could do a whole nother podcast on new relationship energy boy but when those hormones are going and you've had a little bit drink and you're with somebody who's just captured your attention all of us well you know what it's like when we first met remember we would we would lay down at the in the watch and watch the TV or we'd be sitting in the car, like staring at each other. And, and I'm like, what? It's, it's been three hours already, you know, because you have a little bit of that infatuation and it's easy to lose, not only lose track of time, but lose track of your partner because you're really so consumed in that moment. Yeah. Or if you find somebody who has like the same interest as you do, because I think like last time we had a, we did a podcast together, Mrs. Jones was talking about how like opposites get together and then you break off and you find with somebody who has the same Zs as you, and watching your partner get absorbed with someone else who has the same Zs, you know, you might be like, well, shit. Yeah, it's like, but it also leads to like FOMO or the Me Too energy of like, well, now I don't know how to interject because I know nothing about cars, or I know nothing about like what's happening with the stock market. or politics on this angle. Like, I don't know any of that stuff. I'd love to be included, but I'm not. Or they hit it off with somebody else. You're not upset necessarily that they're hitting it off with somebody else. You're more upset that you're sitting on the chair, not connecting with anybody the way that they're connecting. So it's like, me too. I want to do some of that. And so some of that is the jealousy. It's not necessarily like, I don't want you talking to anybody else. Right. Yeah. And it's so hard to find those four-way connections. where, because if the other person is really into the person they're speaking with, then they don't care as much about the time, you know, because they're having a good time too. But it's really that elusive four-way connection at one time when you're each equally attracted to and involved with the other person. But usually there is one of the two of you who feels a little bit slighted, especially at first. Okay, so number three was navigating gel. policy. Number four, boundaries, agreements, and the dreaded people-pleasing. This one's a good one. I know that people will probably be like, why wasn't boundaries like number one? Because that's normally what people come in here trying to figure out is like, how do we do boundaries? And just wanted to say that it's a big one, but I don't necessarily know that that would be the first one I would list. I would definitely still go with honesty and open communication. The thing that makes up boundaries is agreements and expectations. And you need to, this is an interesting one. I always think expectations are like tricky because sometimes people will say, I thought we both knew this and it was a said unsaid. And my interpretation of the said unsaid is different than your interpretation of the said unsaid. And so it's really important to verbalize those expectations. So expectations plus agreements to make up your boundaries. Let's talk about the agreements first. So I think agreements help to foster mutual respect. They create physical and emotional safety. They allow for your person to feel heard and appreciated. It also lends to an engagement of more honesty about what you can or cannot do or give at this time, right? We don't want to white knuckle our way through things. We don't want to say yes and then hope that like somewhere down the line we get into it. Like it's okay to say like right now in this moment, this is my comfort zone. We will eventually maybe have more flexibility, but this works for me. And then you don't feel like down the line, you know, someone's crossed a boundary or disrupted an agreement if you've talked about it. And then with boundaries, these are more about what I do in response to stimuli, not what I tell you you can or cannot do. Right? Boundaries are my response. I like that. I don't know that I've ever really thought about it that way it I always think of boundaries of what we're gonna do or not do I kind of feel like those go underneath agreements right like what we will and won't do those those fall underneath agreements because I want to make sure you feel respected just like you want to make sure I feel respected and so let's agree to do this so they both feel mutual respect respect and it's also like this far and no further because you only feel comfortable here and i only feel comfortable here so this is the agreement because agreements might change yeah that's that's what we hear a lot from people i i get and it's funny because i'll get an email from a person an individual who is a part of a couple and it's almost like they're pleading their case to me like i want to do this but my husband only wants to do that and so i need you to tell me what to tell him so he'll do what i want And I have to go back to what you just said about trust. If you don't establish the trust, if somebody doesn't say, you know what, I accept that because I want you to enjoy yourself and I don't want you to worry. And just saying that you'll stay at a certain level and agree to that builds the trust with your partner so that the next time they're probably going to feel more comfortable and eventually, you know, move a little bit forward. But so many times people are like, oh, come on. I told you. You just have to trust me. We're going to enjoy that. And they don't realize sometimes that the other person then starts digging their heels in the more they're trying to talk them into something. That might just feel like, oh, if you are trying to talk me into it, then what happens when we get there? And so they'll create this whole narrative in their head. So when you meet in a comfort zone for the both of you, it allows that person to go, oh this feels safe okay if i take the next step i know what safety with you feels like in this space let's move forward a little bit yeah and the people pleasing one has been a struggle for us because when it's just the two of us we've been together for so long uh mrs jones has a a little bit of a look that she gives me or the way that her body language is i already know that there's something going on. But when we're in the middle of play and she's being a people pleaser, I'm looking at those signs and they're not there because she wants the other person to think that she's okay with it, but I'm not picking up on those same messages. So it's really difficult sometimes when you're with one person sending one signal, but you want the other person to know you're in distress and you know picking up on those changes is really difficult yes so especially when you get into like the sexy brain because everybody knows like your iq points drop a couple exactly drop a couple dots when you get in the sexy space um so it's like even if i wanted to be aware my reptilian brain has clicked on and i'm a little dumber so i'm gonna need you to be clear yeah um but yeah so that's i think social and sexy spaces can be really hard. I think it has to be kind of overt a little bit, at least to the two of you. You know, I think that's so that can be missed. That happens. Well, and when you get to that point, Miche, it's like, go back to rule number one. All right, we got to have an honest conversation here. Without judgment or blame. Or defensiveness. I love that. Okay, so I think people pleasing can sabotage consent and authenticity for the person who is people pleasing so you may say yes to like boundary violation or like smudging the boundary a little bit and i used to be like oh like well you can just say no but like i've met some people who are like i was in a group dynamic and i felt like if i said no to this or i wasn't enjoying this or can we change it then it would change the whole dynamic of the group and did i really want to like let down or disrupt the entire group because of this boundary that we had and everybody was having such a good time and so i could see where it would be really hard for some people to say like no you know or this doesn't work for us however um it at the end of it it might actually cost you more emotionally than it would have if you would just stuck to the boundary in the moment and i think if we turn that around and look at it from the other side of the bed And what I mean by that is we also will have friends and couples say, oh my gosh, we are with this couple. We texted ahead of time. There was chemistry. We got together. We played. Everybody had a good time, but now they don't want to see us again. But they had a good time. We don't know that because one of the other two of them could have been a people pleaser. And when they had their conversation, he or she may have said, you know, I really didn't have that good of a time, but I couldn't say it in front of them. So I think understanding that other couples are going through or other individuals are going through the same mental gymnastics that we are and that we shouldn't take a lot of this stuff personally, you know, because that person could have been a people pleaser. And even though that might be a little bit hard for my ego, you know, to hear, if we're going through it, why can't we acknowledge the fact that others are going to go through that? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I like that so much. Just like to like project grace. Like I would give other people grace if they were going through this. I'm going to assume that they will be able to do the same for me if they really knew what was happening behind the scenes. Okay. That was boundaries, agreements, and people pleasing. Number five, navigating different paces in the journey. Okay. So this is a big one, right? Like I, people come in and they're like, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to do this. the full swab and then the tango and the upside down pineapple like i'm ready to dry all the things and the other partners like i would like to try taking my bathing suit off thank you um and so there's just there's an acceptance here of recognizing first that your partner is their own individual different person and i think that happens while learning that you both have different paces and so there's a way to um to begin to build bridges that meet in the middle so that you guys can have a pace that's mutually agreed upon where someone's slowing down a little bit and someone's maybe stretching a little bit. So that's kind of like the gas and the brake pedal. That's a better metaphor for some people if we're going to steal a term from Emily Nagowski. That interrelationship can look like one person who's ready to lead into new situations, different people, different people, different sexual interests. That would be the gas. Someone else is like, I want to go slow and be methodical and talk through everything. I've had couples before where one person, as they start to explore what they like and are honest with their partners about their own desires, realize they're more into the BDSM kink world and their partner's like, I'm all for blindfolds, but anything else besides that isn't really my bag. And so one of the beautiful things about E&M is that you can find other people who were interested in that with you. And you don't have to put all parts of, you don't have to put some of your parts on a shelf for the relationship or the sexual energy to work, right? You just have to find the right people. So you get to explore and you don't have to dampen certain things about yourself. But that does require you while having those honest conversations and adjusting the pace. Like I'd love for you to have this type of BDSM experience with someone else. Can we talk about how fast we're going to go in that search for that other thing or person and how far into that kink world you want to go? You know, we had one of the guys in our community in the men's chat that we have every other week. He said, you know, I don't look, I don't like the break in the gas. I like to think of it as a bulldozer or a tractor where one track is going faster than the other track. and it veers you off of course so if you think of if you've ever watched a bulldozer or a tank you know when one of the tracks stop or slows down and the other one gets faster that the tractor starts to veer off to the left or to the right and so it's it's almost like he was saying we get off course you know we we get off track if we're not you know keeping those two accelerating or stopping at the same time so i thought that was an interesting way to to look at it too it's a good reference for like, how do we stick in this together? Right. Well, and you're never, I mean, it would be so rare for people to go in that perfectly straight line where both sides of the bulldozer were going at the exact same speed, right? Because it's like, it's constantly like, you know, one person gets ahead of the other and then the other person catches up and then the other person's like, oh, let's try this. And I think there's just that constant back and forth, but that's the way you end up moving forward together. Right. Yes. Yes. And it's also like the sitting and the novelty, like reminding yourself like, yes, it might be scary, but can we move it into this skited place where it's like scary and exciting? Like what parts of this are we excited to experience with each other together instead of it just sitting in the, well, if we both have different paces, does this mean we're incompatible? Or does this mean you're going to like shoot off and like leave me or get tired of waiting around for me? Or you're going to put the brakes on and shut the whole thing down, right? Like what parts of this can we be scared and excited to experience together? Yeah. And again, there's another couple you're with or another person and their pace between the two of them might be off and between them and you as a couple. So that same respect that you were talking about earlier when you're with another couple and they say, we are full swap and you say, oh, well, we would just like to soft swap. You want somebody to say, you know what, we just want to spend time with you guys. And if that's what you're comfortable with, then that's what I'm comfortable with. So a lot of the lessons that we're learning about each other as a couple also need to apply when you're with other people to understand that their pace has an impact in how things are going to go as well. Very, very true. So what do you mean by the bridge work of connection? So with the bridge work of connection, as you're recognizing that your partner is exploring their own differentiated sexual thumbprint, which might look different than yours, What we want to do is start building a bridge where your thumbprint and their thumbprint meet in the middle of this bridge, right? And so we want to build bridges between differing experiences and timelines in E&M. And that requires empathy, patience, nonjudgmental dialogue that sits in curiosity and avoiding comparisons or shoulds. It avoids trying to speed up your partner's pace or to put on the brakes to the point where your other partner feels like, well, maybe we should just get out of this because this isn't going to move at any pace that I'm comfortable with. So we're just trying to co-create evolving agreements. We're going to go back to the agreements a little bit. And these just make sure that we're all on the same page. These are different from red lines or hard nose, right? That's a different space. So the agreements should be a living document that kind of sits in the co-creating of what it is you both want. So we want to create flexibility in this. We want to make sure that we're saying, well, the person who feels a little like their pace is slower, what would be your growth edge? What would be a stretch for you? And what part of that stretch feels uncomfortable slash comfortable enough to sit in for a little bit? And then you want to ask the person who is like a little faster, like what's a trot for you? And where could you sit in that where it feels like slower but still comfortable? And in that, that's the middle. That's what we're shooting for. So everybody gets a little bit of something that they want. Yeah, so this really is a nuanced dance that continues on. And I wonder, you probably see this more in your practice as a professional where the two people says, I'm not comfortable doing that. The other person will either agree with it or disagree with it. But I wonder how often the question is, why does that make you uncomfortable? Like, what is it about that? Is there a fear attached to that? Is there a trigger that's attached to that? Is there a past experience that are attached to that? And I think sometimes that's where people like you all at Expansive Connection come in to, because so many times we either don't want to go there or we don't understand the need to go there and and a lot of times we'll just say oh okay well if you don't want to do that i'm fine with that you know we'll but but we don't really dig into it a little bit more to to discover is there something underneath of here that we need to you know to work on and i think it also goes back to trust a little bit to be able to say like maybe in this fear i don't trust that you would be able to do this or that this won't lead to a snowball going down a hill or that it's going to erode at our personal relationship. And so in those moments, I think it's so important to lean into, well, how can I support you in that while we start to make small baby steps towards this so that you feel like every time that worry comes up for you, you're met with my challenge of, nope, I've been here the whole time, I'm still here. here, I'm supporting you what you need. Yeah. And I think that as you get experience in this and as you, the whole environment becomes less overwhelming and you're able to take more of it in and process it. I mean, I remember when I had the jealousy issue early on and Mrs. Jones was saying, well, maybe we shouldn't do this. And I said, no, I need to figure out, I need to figure this out. You know, I don't understand why I'm like this. And it wasn't that it just dawned on me, but after a period of time and getting back on the bike, then I thought, you know what, I bet you it's this. And probably the way I'm like that is because of this thing that happened in the past. So it wasn't anything that I discovered or we discovered overnight. But if we would have stopped and backed away, whatever that is that's underneath is still there and could, it could, you know, rise up again in the future. I see this. When we run into couples that have this huge imbalance, and it does appear to be like a lack of trust, I think it goes back to number one, having that radical honesty and those radically honest conversations with your partner. I just don't, I just have this feeling that that's not happening. And the husband's pushing the wife. And it's not like the one instance I'm thinking of. I think she really is curious and wants to have fun in the lifestyle. I just don't think they are on the same page. And I don't know. It's so frustrating because I think they're both like super sexy, interesting, fun people that want to have fun. And because, I mean, the good thing about it is that they don't really do much. because I think they know they can't handle it, but they can't quite figure out why. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I think like with those, it's kind of like, let's explore like what, where are the, I want to see where the breadcrumbs are, you know, kind of like what's behind that? Not that I want to change it, but just so that you're aware of why your no is a no. Yeah. So that's, that's, honey, that's brilliant. Okay. I just, I just connected something. Every once in a while he hears me and he's like, wow. No, I remember we would go with, we'd meet a couple or, and, and they would be attractive. They'd be intelligent. They'd be in it. And I'm like, you know, there's something, there's something that I'm just not quite comfortable with. There's a little bit of a red flag and I can't explain what it is. But what I think you're touching on here is that if we've been honest with each other and with ourselves from the beginning, but another couple has not, that, that really does come through in that And so I think this really validates your point, Miche, that you do have the right number one is the good number one. And I think that's why a lot of people are comfortable with us, because we are honest with each other. We've had the conversations. We're safe and we're trustworthy. And boy, does that make a huge difference when you meet somebody. Also, like in reverse, what an amazing thing for them to bump up against someone who has had it. So they know what that feels like and what that looks like in another couple. So they can say like, not necessarily how do we get to be like the Joneses? It's more of like, how do we start to implement whatever it is that they're doing so that we enjoy being in these spaces and we're not wrestling with ourselves while trying to be with other people. So that energy feels better between us. Okay, well, I learned something, and we're on number five, so it's good. So, okay, that's five, navigating different paces in the journey. The last one, number six, co-creating evolving agreements. This sounds like it's getting a little bit legalistic here. What are we talking about? So, I like to think of co-creating agreements as a living document. So it's something that changes, evolves, morphs as you all change, learn things, keep going. So I've met couples who start baby steps in the lifestyle, go to the normal trajectory of like baby soft swap, soft swap, full swap. They live in soft swap for a little bit. And they recognize that, oh, they live in, they live in full swap and they recognize that soft swap is actually their sweet spot. And so I just want to like make it really clear that there's no arriving in this space and there's no place you're supposed to be. And so when I say living document, I mean like for this particular couple and for a lot of people, as they find their sweet spot in E&M, that agreement had to change, right? Like it had to go all the way open to allow for full swap with them. And then it had to close some doors so that they can enjoy the groove that they both found. that makes them the freest which was in soft swap so it's not supposed to be regimented at all this is supposed to be something that grows with you and contracts with you yeah and i think that what what we've learned or what i've learned is i we had a really good sex life before the lifestyle but i think for me obviously we were a married couple it was consensual we had full swap sex a lot and we both had orgasms and that pattern became, like you said, for a lot of people, that's like the peak. That's what you're shooting for. That's what you're trying to evolve to. But to your point, and as Mrs. Jones has reminded us over the years, if you're not having fun, you're not doing it right. All of a sudden, a sexy fun with other people doesn't have to be that way. It can be any level of whatever is exciting, exhilarating. Yeah, when you hit that point that you're feeling pressure, I think that's when, like you said, you just kind of have to like pull back a little bit and say, okay, well, I mean, obviously that was like sexy and fun and everything. But I sure was a lot more comfortable back here in the soft swap arena. Yeah. And I don't think that, you know, I'm not sure because we can't go back and change the past. But if we have never gotten into this lifestyle, would I know anything about the Enneagram? Would I know anything about my erotic blueprint? Would I know anything about being creative in bed? We've analyzed the heck out of each other this year, haven't we? But what that's led to is it's an expanded view of playfulness and sexuality. It's not as limiting as it was. was before where we had this pattern and when we were done you rolled over and smoked your cigarette and went to sleep i mean that was just the way i mean we don't smoke but you know what i mean i love the way that you've taken like this whole idea of agreement and and you've just made it something very malleable and flexible yeah because people think agreement oh my gosh like you know it's a it's a paper a bunch of papers that have been stapled together and and you know this is it that's definitely like a newbie thing i i will admit like when i came in here i was like yes we are going to sit down we're doing a google doc and we're going to bullet point that all the do's and don'ts like two pages i got it we're gonna be nuanced with this right and then like three years later you look back and you're like we didn't stick to that at all and it didn't fit with the people we we started connecting with right like it had to change with each that came into our orbit and that we played with or had connections with. And so the document itself had to change in order for us to stay in our goals and our values, but also accommodate and be in relationship with other people in whatever level continuum that was. So I just feel like with the living document of the co-creating agreements, however they evolve, that it should be like the goal of it should be a shared goal like what works for us what is our goal what is our why and that's the basis on what all the other agreements that you put into that um are built off of and there's so many things in life that life throws at you that you distract you or um changes your your trajectory and with me and my health issue and having prostate my prostate removed it has forced me to think differently. And it has forced me to realize that that's not, my penis is not the center of the universe anymore. And I've had to be creative and I've had to think about it differently. And I don't know, I don't know that I would have before. And even though I wouldn't want to go through that again, because of the circumstances, like people will email me a lot and say, well, why, how are you still in the lifestyle if you can't get an erection? And, and I, and if you would have asked me that three or four years ago, I would have said, yeah, I don't know how you, how you would do that. But now I know that there's more to me than that. There's more to us than that. And there's more than one way to have fun. And there's, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for making it so concise for me. Last little piece of living agreements and living documents is that I wanted to just like highlight that somewhere in this agreement, there should be a portion of this where you talk about how you come back together. Like that you agree upon how we reconnect, whether that's after we've gone out on a date, whether we've gone to play with other people, whether we've gone to events or not, like what does that look like? like and the cool piece about this is that this can happen for the reconnection space but it also can exist as part of a rupture and repair cycle right and so you get a two for one when you sit down together and talk about what that reconnection looks like and that can look like we've just decided that after we've gone out and played with our people we come back and we do a puzzle together or we walk the dog or we cuddle naked and like remind each other of all the good fun that we just had we're continuing to reinforce this. We're both safe people for each other. And then we're going to practice this radical open honesty with each other. And so that reconnection place exists in this evolving living document that you will have created as your agreements. And it's just as important as all the things you've said, you know, we're meeting in the middle for. Yeah. And as we're kind of wrapping this up, it is almost like an iterative, circular process, this one through six that we've talked about. Because, you know, I guess we get people's attention. If you're a newbie, you probably do need to know a lot of this more than an experienced person. But as we're going through this, I realized that we can't get to a place where we get a cap and gown and say, here's your diploma. you've graduated, you're a summa cum laude swinger, and you don't need to go to school anymore. Yeah, the day you do that, it's a day you're going to fall on your face. That's right. Very true. And I think no matter, I'm not going to say no matter, you might be able to speak to this better than I, but you know, one of the things that we've been trying to do over the past few years is let everyone know that you don't have to do this the way that we do it. However, this blueprint that you've laid out, these six steps, I believe that if you're doing this as a couple, regardless of your pathway, regardless of what your thing is, this is something that everybody could apply. And if you're kink, BDSM, if you're a morsum, if you're whatever, these things are still important and will help you be better. at whatever pathway that you're on. I mean, to me, I'm looking at this and I'm thinking this applies to monogamous couples as well. Anybody trying to live life together. Yeah. Because you go through these cycles in your life with careers and children and, you know, just all the parts of growing up together with a partner. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. And it also kind of like helps to nudge the relearning of your person. Like, don't get comfortable. like figure out what it is that makes them tick and what makes them happy and how you've changed like i used to like this but now i like this and that's okay okay so this needs to either be a workshop or a book right uh because i do think that this is something that is timeless um information and it will apply to just about anyone who wants to do this in a healthy way um so congratulations i i really enjoyed I love that. I love that. Brilliant. So is there anything else you want to share before we start to close? About this part? No, but I do have some pretty cool things that Expansive Connection is doing that I do want to share. Let's get into the pretty cool things. Okay. Well, first off, I wanted to say that Jason, which is the other coach at Expansive Connection, and I will be doing a workshop on emotion regulation. that we have titled Emotional Cough Blockers. I think that helped us coin that term a little bit, actually. This workshop focuses on how E&M comes with its own flavors of polar opposites, emotions, and vivo experiences, kind of like the ones we talked about with the full embodiment, thinking about things. And so we want to talk about sitting in the dialectic of having two conflicting emotions and kind of how that flips our lid, how we relate to other people, how we relate to ourselves when our emotions are kind of like driving us and how we get back into the driver's seat with our lid fully flipped down and then how we interact with the people around us. So Jason and I will be talking about that. He's going to bring some pretty cool perspectives on this that I'm excited to share with other people as well. And we're not just talking about it. We're going to practice because we're going to have breakout groups. And so we're hoping that you guys get this toolkit that you can use wherever the journey takes you. Okay, and where can they find information about that, Miche? They can go on our website, which is expansiveconnection.com. They can also go into the events portion of the Expansive Connection little page on the WGT platform. And so there's still time and still spots available. If you'd like to come, we would love to have you. It's $40 a person. And it will be held So that's the newest thing. I will also be at the new Libertine event for October. That's in San Antonio in October. So if we're going to that, come say hi to me. I would love to meet you or see you again. I know that Catherine and Kelsey, I just got back from another amazing couples retreat with Diva's Dragonfly in Georgia. There's another one, February 25th in Dustin, Florida. I will also be at that one. So come hang out with us. And then anyone who signed up for our Masculinity Matters Men's Group and the Ladies' Room Peer Groups gets a free workshop. So if you want this to be your free workshop with me and Jason, come on in. So we have a lot of cool things. I think that there's a Wild and Wise Thriving Menopause Retreat with April from Naughty Gym that's coming up. And you can find all of these on the events on the We Got a Thing and also from Stance of Connection. So the Expansive Connection website is Expansive Connection, no S, Expansive Connection.com. You can find a link to the Expansive Connection website on our public-facing website. And if you are in our community, Expansive Connection has a space, an entire area that we've walled off for them, and they share a lot of information there. So if you're in the community, you can get information about all the events there. Okay, and if they want to contact you, I imagine there's a way to do that on your website too. Is that right? Yes. You can find me underneath the coaches section on our website. You can also just email me. It's my first name. So it's M-E-S-H-A-I at expansiveconnection.com. Okay, and you guys have a presence on Instagram. Uh-huh. We're also at, I think it's, I believe it's expand.connect on Instagram. And I post on my website. Mondays. Mine are yummy, just so you know. But everybody posts as well. So come take a look for us. Well, you came through completely sober, Michelle. Thank you. I'll be down. I made it a little strong. I'll do my best. Now you can take the gloves back off and get back to what you were doing before we started this conversation. But it really does help us to understand the sacrifice that you make in order to come talk with us for an hour. So please, thank your boyfriend for he's probably passed out or eating doritos or something but i will all right well appreciate your time uh enjoyed the conversation and we will see you when it's your turn again in a few more months so next next month uh katherine um is going to be with us um and we'll we'll give more details about that she and i talked today and i think that's going to be a a really special conversation that we have with her. So thanks for listening. We are Mr. and Mrs. Jones. And I'm Miche with Expansive Connection. And We Got a Thing. What's your thing? Hey, this is Jessica. If this episode stirred something in you, curiosity, comfort, or that quiet, I've been looking for this feeling, don't stop here. Go listen to episode 131, Finding Your Tribe and the We Got a Thing community. It's where the conversations go deeper, the connections get real, and you're that this journey was never meant to be taken alone. Because if you're listening, chances are you've got a thing. A craving for more honesty, more freedom, and a space where you feel understood without having to justify who you are. And We've Got a Thing, a thriving community built exactly for like-minded couples and individuals ready to explore, grow, and connect with support that's as deep as the desire that brought you here. Head to WeGotAThing.com and come inside, because a thing you've been craving? It's not just a fantasy. It's a real community, and we're waiting for you. Follow us on at WeGottaThing on Instagram and X. That's W-E-G-O-T-T-A-T-H-I-N-G for a glimpse into the energy, inspiration, and intention behind everything we do. We'll see you next time.