Episode 139: Our Enneagram Coaching Session

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey, you teenagers out there. If you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Hello, everyone. I'm Mr. Jones. And I'm Mrs. Jones. And I'm Calla with Expansive Connection. We want to welcome you to episode 139 of the We Got a Thing podcast. Or 136 part two. First of all, I want to say I love the Enneagram. It is a tool that I am passionate about. I have been trained and been learning about the Enneagram for about five years now. I've gotten certified as an Enneagram coach. I have trained under about three or four different modalities. I love learning. It is one of my favorite things. But when I learned about the Enneagram, it made so much sense to me and opened my eyes in a way about myself that I felt like I had not experienced up to that point. And so I love the idea of being able to come on and teach you and your listeners about it as a tool that they can use. And also the idea that they may use it to make their relationships better, to have more compassion and more understanding for themselves and others, which is really what the Enneagram is a gift to. We are going to do a little exercise where I actually allow you two to be in a coaching session that I would do as an Enneagram coach with a couple. a tool and it's one of the tools that I use as a coach to help couples understand their differences and you guys were so kind and generous to have me a couple of months ago where we talked about why differences are so beneficial for us sometimes we hate them we don't like them why are they really good for us and this is sort of just a continuation on that vein in we are different let's all be aware of it let's not pretend it's not true anymore and let's even lean a little bit more into understanding the difference between us and then using that as instead of a conflict idea, a compassion, and a more communicating way to talk to each other. So if I can learn your language and then I can start to speak it to you, wow, we just made our relationship a lot easier. I guess this is our deep dive into our Enneagrams and what makes us tick and what makes us buttheads. I've got the bottle of wine, the boxing gloves, everything I think I might need to withstand this. I don't know. I might need some This is going to be great. It's going to be eye-opening. You're going to have so much compassion for each other and yourselves. It's going to be positive. You're not going to eat any of that, I promise. I'll hold you well. I always do that. Okay, well, we are in your hands. Good, good. Okay, so what we are inviting your listeners to is sort of like we are in session, and we are you doing an Enneagram typing, an Enneagram coaching session, which I do all the time, and so what what we're doing is just letting them listen to one. And I think it'll be really interesting because they can hear what that's like, but they'll also learn more about the two of you, which will be really exciting for people. So we're just going to jump right in and I'm going to do the coaching the way I would do the coaching with any couple. And this is how it will kind of go. What I'm going to do is I'm going to teach a little bit deeper dive than we did the last episode where we went really high level and all the numbers about each of your numbers. So we're going to kind of reiterate all of the things about one, but I'm going to add some, some nuance and some deeper things. And then, We'll do the same thing for sixes. And what I want, you guys each have a job as we're talking about each number. So when I'm talking about ones, Mrs. Jones, your job is to listen for the things that really resonate with you, where you go, yes, that has been true forever. That has always been true. That shows up in my life in all of these areas. That is such a big aha moment for me. Like to hear someone explain it that way is just like kind of being inside my skin and feeling it. I really want you listening for those because I want you to take in the, there's so many people that are like this, that you are not alone in the things that are hard or the things that are wonderful about your personality. Mr. Jones, your job is to do that same thing. But you're listening for the places where suddenly you have like this small window of light on things that Mrs. Jones has done for years. And you're like, oh, my gosh, that wasn't just her being difficult. That was this thing about her personality. And there's tons and tons and tons of people who are just like that and think just like that and see just like that. And so, again, it's we're really looking compassion for myself compassion for you and a little bit more understanding of oh my god that's why you do that thing that's why i do that thing so that's what we're listening for and then we'll share so we're going to talk about ones and then mrs jones i'm going to invite you to say the things a few things that pop up for you so you may want to take notes of like yes this is such an answer yes this makes so much sense yes this is what i've tried to explain forever and i couldn't have words and then mr jones you're going to do the same thing okay so what's going to happen is then you're going to share and anything that it feels like oh my gosh we've struggled with this or we we bounced this idea around forever and this is why those are great things to share too but share whatever feels comfortable for you so we'll do one and then we'll do six and then at the end we'll kind of talk about what are some of the strengths of a one and a six couple and what are some of the challenges for a one and six couple so we'll just kind of talk about that if we were doing a real long session we'd go into a lot more we go into for some couples we're going to pairing styles for some couples i go into conflict styles for some couples i go into their wings and their stress and security. And maybe their, you know, their feeling triads or their, you know, centers of concentrate or intelligence. There's a lot we could dig into, but we're not going to do that today. We're just going to do the basics about your number and then how you guys relate to each other well and where it can be challenging. So, are we ready? Okay. Ready. Okay. So, let's start with our ones. So, Mrs. Jones, again, to reiterate what we talked about our last episode about the Enneagram, you are the perfectionist and the reformer. And we talked about this inner voice. And we're going to talk more about that because I really want you to understand how different that is from every other person. But I think the thing about ones that is the most interesting to me is ones notice everything. So ones notice their thoughts and their feelings and their behaviors. And they notice other people's behaviors and maybe some of their emotions because ones are really intuitive and they can pick that up. And they are sort of judging those all of the time. So ones have a mind that is judgy and comparison. Not judgy like I'm better than you. It's judging good or bad, right or wrong. Think about a judge in robes in a courtroom. It's that kind of judge. It's this pure right or wrong holder of justice type of brain. So your brain is a judging comparison brain. And you are noticing all of the things and you are judging them all of the time. And you don't just judge them and go, well, that's bad. That sucks. you judge it as bad and instantly try to figure out how to correct it so it's this constant motion machine it is oh i'm thinking this thought that's not a good thought to think i need to fix that oh i'm feeling this feeling that's not an appropriate feeling i need to change that feeling oh i'm doing this behavior that's not getting me what i want i need to change that behavior and so you have this amazing brain that is constantly doing that work for you and then it's putting out such an incredible outcome that are unbelievable. I mean, if I need an accountant, I want a one. If I need a brain surgeon, I'm going to find a one. They are going to do things so incredibly well because of that judgment in their brain to do it well. Now, what that leads to is a tremendous amount of frustration because as hard as you try and as hard as everyone tries, they can never actually make things perfect. So there is this always this layer of being a little bit frustrated and a lot disappointed because things just don't ever seem to measure up no matter how hard we are working and they are always working so incredibly hard so there's this this dissatisfaction that happens it's not being good enough feeling and it's just it's it's just really tiring to be honest it's really hard and it's really exhausting but one show up every day and they do it and you barely can ever tell that they're so exhausted because they are so beautiful in their way that they just always show up and do it and we just don't ever sometimes know that they're feeling this level underneath i want to talk about the voice just for a little bit more, because one of the things that we couldn't have said, we just didn't have time, is how important the center critic is. And I want people that are not ones that are listening to me to understand this and have great compassion for ones in their lives. I want everyone listening to think about the thing that they have the most shame about in their life. The thing that when I say, think of your worst moment, you think of. And I want you to think about the way you feel and the way you talk to yourself about that moment. ones talk to themselves and feel about themselves all of the time. It is crushingly difficult to live with that amount of condemnation. And knowing Mrs. Jones' story the way I do know it, I also want to tell you that so many people that are ones and grow up in the Christian faith just so unbelievably believe when they're little that this voice that they hear is the Holy Spirit. And I've talked to so many people that have said, well, I just thought it was God telling me all the things I was doing wrong, which breaks my heart into a billion pieces. But again, it's so present and people that have been in church and been around church feel like that should be present. And so they get this idea that religion is this condemning, you're bad, you're bad, be afraid, do better kind of umbrella. That's how I felt when I was little. Yes. For sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I say all of that to stoke compassion in yourself for yourself, but then also to let other people have compassion for the ones in their lives now ones have that hard road to hope for sure but ones also have the incredible gift of improvement and ones have this gift of doing things well you know i don't want to build furniture from a box with anybody but a one because i'm not going to do a good job and that one is going to find all the pieces and they're going to do that thing that i never do which is like oh they're supposed to be seven widgets we need to count and make sure there's seven widgets and oh if we don't have we can't build this bookshelf. Because I'm not going to do something not by the instructions and not to where it's correct. Because again, then the whole bookshelf will fall down and we'll be all in trouble. Ones are gifted at that. They are the kind of people who read the instructions. They are the kind of people who are bothered by imperfections. Please don't write to Mrs. Jones in an email and not have good grammar and not use the correct punctuation. That's going to drive her baddie. She's going to hate that. And she's going to notice it. She's going to see it. she's going to be like who wrote this a third grader that would not be a way to her heart to write her something with really bad grammar because she's going to notice it and she can't not notice it so let's let's talk about that in life when you are showing up and when ones are showing up in their life they see all of the things that aren't perfect and it's hard for them to rest when they aren't fixed so a lot of ones and and i also want to say like a lot of times people have done a lot of work on themselves so we're kind of pausing for a minute and If I have done a lot of work, relational work, self-worth work, I may have corrected some of the things in my personality that may have been really hard when I was younger and now that I'm in the prime of my life, I'm better at. So I always want people to think about your personality from way back. So maybe you've worked on this and it doesn't bother you, but you can probably remember a time where if you were sitting in the living room and everybody was kicking their shoes off and putting their feet up and you looked around the corner and saw a sink full of dirty dishes, there's no way you could sit there and relax. that's not supposed to be like that. Or there's dirt in the corner over there, I got to just go and dust it. Or there's things that are a little crooked, I've just got to go fix them. Ones feel a compulsion when they notice to fix. And it's really hard for them to settle when things are not fixed. It's just hard. I mean, they may be able to use self-control and not do anything about it, but internally they're just like, oh, I hate this, why is this not bothering anyone else? So it can cause ones to take on too much. ones, I will say, have this incredible high bar for themselves. And they are just so good that they meet it. And then what do they do? They raise it. So ones are the kind of people they're like, well, if I can be great at this, I can be great at something else. And then I can be great at something else. And they are constantly saying yes to things. And then they have to do them to the best of their ability, which means they can get really burnout really fast. And I will say that ones struggle when they do so much well in other people. don't do things well for them or don't do things well around them you know to go to work every day as a one and do your absolute best work and see people who slack oh that is going to make ones feel so terrible and gross and they're not going to want to be in that space at all i think that ones is interesting every number isn't a part of a feeling triad so ones are in the anger triad eights nines and ones are all living in the triad that is around anger And ones actually would not say that they really feel a lot of anger because again, good people don't get angry. So anger is a hard emotion for ones, but it leaks out in all these other words that ones often say. So ones will say they're stressed, they're frustrated, they're tired, they're irritated. And what that means is they're raging mad, but that's a more appropriate way to talk about it. And so ones kind of have this anger that can sometimes be under the surface, a good way, a good boy or a good girl way to express that anger. And so it simmers and it kind of feels that this yucky way and it can leak out in resentment. You know, ones can be bothered by something for a really long time and their partners don't know it at all. And then when they tell their partners about it, it's like, oh, and by the way, it's a mountain behind me that I've just been like sticking in the closet and closing the door and I can't do that anymore. So now you're going to get the whole mountain. That's a common, common thing for ones. So I think that the other thing is that, as we talked about, each number sort of umbrellas their people under it. So I want everyone that I love if I'm a one to be good. And what that means is I just can't help myself but seeing your faults. So Mr. Jones, she can't help but point out the things that she sees that are wrong with you and hope that you fix them or encourage you to fix them. And then when she tells you about them and you don't fix them, she just is very confused. So she's going to tell you again about them and she's going to nag you about them. Because again, why are you not fixing this thing that obviously and correct about you but that is loving it is not trying to be hurtful or cruel it is always done in this way of i care about you and i want the best for you you know as we're talking about my husband and my driving i care about you i want you to drive as safe as possible so i'm going to criticize your driving every single day hoping that you change because ones are always hoping that the people they love will change ones think and speak in a lot of should and a lot of musts and a lot of rights you know the right thing to do. We must do this. We should do this. That's a lot of their verbal. I think that they also don't multitask very well because ones want to do everything really well. So if they can try to multitask, but then they sometimes get upset because they didn't do everything as perfectly as they wanted to. So it's kind of a fool's errand for them to multitask. Ones are super black and white thinkers. There is a right and wrong. There is a left and right. There is a good and bad to everything. They have a lot of trouble with gray. And they run on accountability and details. They are time, figure it out, be on time. Ones are on time. They just, they usually show up on time. They don't want to be late. They don't want to get in trouble. I think another way that ones express their love for people is by doing things well for them. So I love you and I'm going to do this thing so perfectly for you to show you that I love you. And the problem with that is a lot of people don't feel love that way. So a lot of people don't feel love through criticism. And a lot of people don't feel loved through perfection. So ones can get really sad when they don't get the response from people that they expect when they worked so hard to make something so perfect. And the person's just like, oh, that's nice. And they can't believe you don't see the hours or the agony that they put into this thing that they're giving to you. I think that ones really take their family responsibilities seriously. They really take their work responsibilities seriously. They really take their community responsibilities seriously. They are going to do a good job. and they are going to really want to be recognized for that. And if it's work or if it's a relationship kind of promoted for that. So a one isn't going to want a promotion that's just like, well, you've been here five years or well, I haven't, you know, you're a nice person. They want it to be like, well, give me the whole folder of everything that I did well and give me all the feedback and I want to know what I did wrong. They want that feedback. They don't want just, you know, oh, here's your yearly promotion. No. If you don't do a review with a one, they would be I think that ones have really high expectations for themselves, but they have really high expectations for the people they love. They're always raising the bar on themselves. They expect a lot from the people they're with. They expect a lot from themselves. It's not anything different, but man, I expect you to do the things and be the things and grow the things and step up into the things. They really expect that from others. And I think that, again, it's very important to think about being in a relationship with a one, how you're going to bring your complaints. How am I going to bring the things that bother me to the person I love that's a one? Because I got to be really careful to not feel like I am beating a dead horse if it's something that they're struggling with or they know about. Because I promise you, as you said, Mrs. Jones, there's very few things that someone's going to come to you and point out that you have not already said to yourself 10 times and you are not already beating yourself up about. So I don't want to be another voice in that. But I also have to be able to tell you the thing. And so that's something for every couple. There's a one in the couple to talk about. You know, how can I bring you things that are bothering me and you not feel the weight of that criticism and you not feel like I'm doubling down on your voice or you don't feel terrified that you didn't see that and you didn't already get that box checked. I think something that's important for ones is that if I really want a one to rest, I have to send them away. Because if a one's in their space, they can't rest. a nice hotel or a nice resort where there's nothing to do because for me, a one's idea of a staycation is not a staycation. No one is taking a staycation. They are catching up on the laundry or painting the baseboards of that bathroom they forgot two years ago or ordering the thing for the closet they should have done. So if I really want to allow my ones to rest, I'm going to take them somewhere where they don't have any responsibility. There's no dishwasher for them to unload. There's no dust that they're worrying about cleaning and that will actually let them discharge some of that energy and really, really take the rest that they need the there's a really really beautiful um enneagram tradition which is to talk about the childhood message that you lost and what you need to hear to heal and i really like that to always end an enneagram with that and so the childhood message that once heard was it was not okay to make mistakes and the healing message that they need to hear is you are good just that really simple sentence that you are good And that is all of the things about a one, Mrs. Jones. Wow. So tell me. You were in my head the whole time. It is a little bit unnerving for people. I think that's one of the reasons I like the Enneagram is because it's so deep. This is not like, you know, you pick your dry cleaning up on Fridays or you always cross your eyes when you put hearts at your eyes. This is deep stuff. This is, I feel that in my bones. I know that to be true. And I do think it does have, people do have that reaction. I'm like, oh, that feels like you were in my head. And that's a little bit close. So is this the part where you fix her? No, she needs no fixing. Were you not listening? Were you not listening? She's a perfectionist. She is obviously already perfect. No. This is the part where we talk about how that helps me. Again, because what's the point? That's a good question, Mr. Jones. What's the point of knowing this stuff? Well, the point is, if Mrs. Jones, you have tendencies related to your need to improve and you realize that for some reason they are just not serving you anymore or you're like, well, I don't even need to be afraid of that because I know I'm good. I have done my work and I know I am good. But is there are there behaviors that have not caught up with that message? It's a great thing to look at and say, you know what? I still do do this thing where I'm straightening up the bookcase or I'm refixing the thing or I'm telling you you got something on your shirt. And I want to work on those behaviors. Well, now that you know what was driving them, and you know that you don't have to be afraid of that, or you've worked through that fear, you can actually start to change them. So that's where we can have conversations. I think, you know, because I have been around a few years, I think a lot of this stuff, I already knew about myself. And I've, and because we have such different personality types, and I've had so many bad reactions from Like you said, I'm judging or analyzing behaviors to figure out a better way, right? Sometimes that isn't well-received by the love of my life. And so I've had to learn to stop myself and figure out, maybe I can't completely stop, but can I rethink the way I'm going to word that or present that to Mr. Jones, right? like a lead balloon. But at least I'm aware now that it's not always received well because he does have a different personality type. Absolutely. And I think that's the goal. The goal is, again, I don't want to change the way and I can't change the way you see things. But if you can realize that Mr. Jones does not see them that way. And then when things are really important to you, you are either trying to explain it in a way where he can come behind you and he can get an idea. of what you're looking at, or you can go behind him and say, hey, the way you see the lay of the land, this is kind of what I need from you or what I'm asking for in your topography over here. It's that. It's that translation of either can I try to speak me to you or can I speak you to you? And when we know they're different languages, it allows us to actually do that well. Yeah. So was there anything you heard, Mr. Jones, that were like, yeah, uh-huh, that's my life? Yeah, especially having to get out of the house and get away so that she can get out of work mode or mom mode or whatever mode she's in. And I think what I've noticed, at least at this house, with our screened-in lanai in our swimming pool, that seems to be far enough away from the desk that if we stay out there long enough, that seems to do the trick. But yeah. But again, to her point, I've known that for a long time. And that's one of the reasons we travel so much and that we try to get out so much is, and I can't remember what you used to say, Mrs. Jones, but you would, we would get, sometimes we would get to the hotel and we would get before we could even unpack and she would want to have sex. And I'm like, where are you? Where are you at home? And she goes, well, that's all, that's the whole point. You know, we're, we're on vacation. I'm, I'm allowed, I'm allowed. to think like a sexual deviant now that I'm not, you know, in my own house. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because she doesn't have to be a good girl who's doing all the tasks and doing all the things. You can just let all that go and be free. Well, and it also what resonates with me is, you know, we were outed in 2017. So eight, seven or eight years ago. Most people in our lives know we have this podcast and know. And so I don't give a flip anymore, mostly, about who finds out. But it still bothers her that so-and-so can find out. They might find out. Like, they might find out. I said, yeah, then they'd be like all the other people in our lives that find out. So it's that she wants to be good. She's not going to be perceived as being good. Or she's going to be perceived as being bad if this person finds out something that everyone else already knows. So that I see. and described in as one. Another thing, if I can keep going down my list, is a lot of times you say, I can't understand why. Like, I can't understand why you won't try this, or I can't understand why. I do say that. And I'm like, you don't have to understand it. You just have to accept it. You know, maybe you're never going to understand it. I don't understand why you chose that parking space. I don't understand why are we going this way when we're We should be going the other way. I'm like, don't try to understand. You know, just let me. Just accept that this is what I've chosen to do. So that one kind of stood out a little bit. But yeah, I mean, mostly everything else. Well, I'm definitely a one. That's all I can say. The other thing is, you said she uses other things to, like, she makes bodily noises when she's, like, sighing. Like, if something's not perfect, there's a fork in with the knives. Or, you know, there's, that doesn't go there. You know, and that, to me, I'm very, like, I read body language a lot. And to me, what I hear are words, to your point about her not being able to maybe say that it, you know, to be able to express anger, that frustration or that whatever it is, is coming out in the body language. language. And then I take that as it's being directed towards me, which I've learned is not usually the case. It's just the fact that the situation. Yeah. So whether she put the fork there or I put the fork there, she responds just the same. So I've kind of had to learn to just let her make that noise and I don't take it personally. I try not to anyway. Well, and the other thing is trying to learn the whole food on the face thing kind of resonates with us. And I want to reach over with a napkin and wipe the food off of his face, but then he gets so offended. So I'm like, okay, honey, what kind of signal can I give you if we're in a restaurant, especially if we're on a lifestyle date, and you have food hanging off your face? It's worse than that. Do you want it presented that way, or do you want me to give you a signal? No, it's worse than that. It's worse than that, Kel. What I do is if I see her make the gesture with her fingers to wipe something off the right side of my face, I will intentionally reach to the left side of my face and wipe it off. And then she goes, no, it's other side. And then I'll miss it on this side. And so I antagonize her and it just irritates her even more because I'm not, and you know where it is, get it off your face. You're not doing it right. Yes, absolutely. That's not a personality. type, that's every 13 year old boy. That's a humor, a sense of humor. That's different. Different. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the way that I try to process it in a way that I don't get defensive about it or I don't get angry about it because to me, I'm like, well, you know, I'm sure half the guys in here have spaghetti sauce on their shirts. Why are you pointing it out? No one's going to see it. I see it. Yeah. Yeah. And again, about that in a protective mode. It is, I am trying to keep you safe from whatever rejection, the threat of other people judging you. It is this, it's always in this caretaking way. You know, I think when people think about the ways that people love you in their way as a caretaking way, it just doesn't feel very caretaking to us. And so again, the work can be, it's always in the way to translate. So does Mrs. Jones translate it into a softer way or do you start hearing it in a softer way? Yeah, both of, I think we've done both of over the years because, and I don't know where this fits in my Enneagram, but I'm the oldest child and I'm, I liked, I'm very responsible and my love language is words of affirmation. So as I'm putting the dishes away every morning, uh, what I hear is you put this in the wrong place. And to me, that means you didn't, you didn't do a good job. Like you only had one job and you put it in the wrong place. in the wrong place. That's not what she means. She's trying to get me to remember next time that it goes over there because she's the one that gets stuff out and I'm the one that puts stuff away. So, but, but my tendency because of the way I'm wired is to take it personally. Like I really needed words of affirmation that, you know, thank you for putting the dishes away, even though it's, you don't necessarily have to thank me for that. But instead there's some, there's something wrong. Like in my mind, I overly think that there are more things wrong. And that's an exaggeration on my, what I'm saying is when I hear something like that, it cancels out like 10 words of affirmation, but that's just because of how I'm wired. I know she doesn't mean it that way. So I've gotten better. Again, I use my sense of humor a lot to, to deflect a lot of it. Well, what I say now, instead of, honey, you put the measuring spoons in the wrong place, I'll be like, hmm, if I were a measuring spoon, what drawer would I be in today? Which one would I go to? And then they'll help me hunt for them. Yeah. And I think also it's just, there's a beauty in the way, I think, that your language already is. I think that is a lovely softening. I also really loved the way, Mr. Jones, you said that when Mrs. Jones says, I don't understand. because I think that is already such a softening of you're going the wrong way a lot of ones that weren't as evolved and maybe weren't as healthy they wouldn't say well I don't understand I don't understand as a bridge I don't understand as a help me understand because she's right she's like we should be going left and you're going right and instead of saying you're going left and we should be going right she's going I don't understand why you parked there because what she's thinking is because it would have made a lot more sense to park over there so there's some translation that you guys are already doing with all these decades of loving each other If you want to go down this wormhole a little bit more, Kel, this is the way that it goes. She will, no matter how long the trip is, whether it's 10 minutes to the grocery store or 10 hours, she's on her phone, not paying a bit of attention to me until all of a sudden I picked the wrong parking space. And then I'm like, wait a minute, for the past nine and a half hours, you haven't looked up. We've gotten here safely. You know, I did. Maybe I didn't go the way that you wanted to go, but all of a sudden when it suits her, she'll point out something. And we laugh about it now for the most part. As you're grinding your teeth. Well, to me, what I hear is someone who's lucky that she's not paying attention for nine and a half hours because she'd probably have comments about things all the way. So you're kind of lucky she's keeping them to the end. That sounds like a win. Yeah. We're trying. Yeah. All right. Well, good job. Okay, so again, Mrs. Jones, you can do more digging into your Enneagram number with your wings. So you probably have access to a two wing and a nine wing. So you have a lot of feelings around being a helper and being a giver, but also around being a mediator and a peacemaker because those are your two wings and you definitely have access to both of them. Also, your stress and security numbers are going to be four and seven. So you're going to have some resonance in those numbers as well. So you can do some deeper dives into those numbers as well and really kind of lay out a lot more information about your personality. All right. I mean, those wings, as soon as you mentioned the wings, because I didn't really understand that before. I was like, yes, because I do like to avoid conflict. I mean, you know, that so that's really, really interesting. And I think it's spot on. Yeah. And I think something fun about about ones is that ones move. So we travel and we borrow. information or energy so you kind of go to seven in security so what that means is that when you are feeling great about everything and you are in a healthy space you're going to go over to the enthusiast and you are going to be the life of the party you are going to be the woman who's like where is a margarita and where can i find another one you are going to be able to let go and savor and anticipate life because you again you're in this space of security and you can travel there and you can really kind of lean into that energy and have some amazing experiences you can go to seven if things are really going well. Because I always tell people being in security is just sort of like the opposite of being in stress. Being in stress can be good or bad. It means we're really being taxed. Being in security means things are going pretty well. Some people do great when things are going well. Some people are not their best when things are going well. When things are too easy, some people really don't actually go to a place of health. They can go to a place of unhealth. And so it just depends for you which one that is. So you could go and travel if things are going really well and you're not in that much stress to seven and it it could be great or it could be negative it just depends on you however when you're in a place of high stress you move to four which means you're going to borrow some of that moodiness and some of that broodiness and some of that melancholy and some of those deep emotions and that could be beautiful and wonderful you could use those to be creative and be passionate and feel your feelings really well and really get in touch with that or you could take that stress on and it could be in an unhealthy way where you are tense and moody and broody and everybody is you know getting all of this emotion from you that they don't normally get. So again, it's really fascinating because that's another place where Mr. Jones can comment. And this is something about Enneagram coaching. I can start to point out things that maybe are happening that I'm noticing and be curious about them. So let's say that things are going great and swimmingly and you are suddenly behaving in a way that's not your normal personality, but it's really more set in light. You're like, where are we going here? And when are we doing this? this and when can we see these friends and we can see these friends and that's a lot of savoring for you that's a lot of anticipatory energy that's a lot of enthusiasm it might be a good thing to say hey like wow i see you're really leaning into your enthusiast is everything okay like does that feel good to you are you are we are you too bored do you need more things to do are you feeling a little bit lackluster and things it's just a way to be curious because again i'm seeing behavior that i'm not used to you know it's the It's funny, when people move numbers, a lot of times it'll be like, they're acting so unlike themselves. I'm like, great. Then ask them about it. Are they really stressed? Well, then they're taking on some attributes that aren't really in their personality. And that's a great way to have conversation. It's interesting because, you know, we're, we're at the point of our lives where we're trying to gracefully slide into retirement. And Mr. Jones keeps regularly asking me, what are you going to do with your free time when you drop another client? And, and he's really, he won't let me brush that off and and be kind of vague about it he wants to specifically know how i'm going to spend my time because i think i think you are concerned about the fact that i need to stay engaged in something well yeah not only that but you have uh i don't know how do i say this i think you've told me before you're you're a homebody like we can't we don't normally go places two weekends in a row because you're you want to be at home but it's the home is where the work is. I know when you're not at home, you're able to enjoy yourself. So there's a little bit of, that's my concern about when you have more time is, well, if we're going to be in the home and you don't have something planned and we can't plan to go anywhere, I see those two things as being in conflict because it's going to be hard to get out of house mode if we're in the house. So that's something, I think that's where that question comes from. The other thing that I just realized was, you know, Mrs. Jones has always said she's not the one who, she doesn't do well texting with other people. I'm the one who does that. But when she does text people, it's on Friday night or Saturday or Sunday because she's not in work mode. You know, we're out back or we're at a restaurant or we're drinking a bottle of wine or whatever. And so it's not that you can't text people or you don't want to text people. It's just that you're in that. Well, when I'm in work mode, I can't think of anything clever to say or sexy to say. Right. Yeah, and when you get into a more secure and a lot more security, again, just easy street. Think about it that way. There's not big rocks in the way. It's just like things are going pretty well. Then you have more expansion and more room to be a little bit more spontaneous. it's a little bit more flirty a little bit more life of the party yeah you lean into that and that's a good thing absolutely and it's a it's a personality thing absolutely okay let's move over and start to talk about sixes and more specifically mr jones as a six so i want to say we talked about how when we did the last podcast about enneagram that there's fewer fours than any other number and a lot of people never meet a four several enneagram teachers that i follow say that there are more sixes than any number that it is the most common number in the enneagram and more people are sixes and that would be the biggest bucket of all of the numbers and i think it's probably could it could easily be true in my experience just talking to people um so sixes are i think a fascinating people and i'm going to tell you that we're going to start with the fact that their sixes are the only number that have two sub personalities in their personality so we're going to start there and then we'll work our way back so there are two kinds of sixes there are phobic sixes and there are counter phobic sixes so both are from a place of wanting security and safety but what phobic sixes do is they find security in authority so i'm afraid and what i'm going to do is i'm going to look to someone or something and that could be a person but it could be a system it could be anything could be you know a country it could be a faith it could be you know your spouse and that's I'm going to put all my security. So I'm going to submit to what they want. I'm going to agree to their rules. I'm going to do the things they say. And that's where I'm going to find my safety. I'm going to go, OK, I am afraid. I'm going to put my fears over here. I'm going to go under this umbrella of this person and this thing or this organization. And that's how I'm going to be safe. So those are phobic sixes. Counter phobic sixes are exactly the opposite. I am afraid and I'm going to be suspicious of all things. I'm going to be doubtful of authority. I'm going to be rebellious of authority. I'm going to question authority. So where phobic sixes are going to submit to authority, counterphobic sixes are going to push against authority. They're going to test authority. I want to find the holes in authority. And so they're going to rebel versus surrender. And they're going to try to conquer. So I'm not running from what scares me to hide. I'm trying to overcome or conquer or overcome the thing that's scary to me. So I say that because think about how different those two people look. They are the same personality. They just express it in very different ways. So I always say that first because a lot of people will hear all of this and maybe they're a really counter-phobic six and they're like, I don't think that resonates with me. But it does when they look at it like, yeah, you're right. I'm going to join a group, but I'm going to poke holes in the leadership and make sure that I trust them. I'm going to be sure that if I'm a part of this, you know, political affiliation, I'm going to ask all the questions. I'm going to make sure they know what they're talking about. And I'm going to make sure that they're, you know, this happens a lot. in faith communities. A lot of people are sixes in faith communities. And what has happened is they have found a group to get underneath. And everything that scares them, they don't need to worry because there's an answer for it in the church. There's a reason to not be afraid because the church has got some answer about that and that's what they go under. And some people would go into that and they would be like, I'm going to find every single hole in this organization and I'm going to push against it. I'm going to rebel against it. So think about a kid growing up in the same house and one's a counterphobic six and one's a phobic six. Wow, they're going to really rebel against parental, you know, how mom and dad look as heroes or as the people we've got to rebel against and point against and see if they push against and see if they can hold something to make my safety with. So let's talk about some characteristics of six. Sixes are, I think sixes are the best planners. They are the best planners. And the reason they're the best planners is because they have these brains that really can see steps ahead ways that other people can't. So sixes are really focused on now and they are able to see like what's going to happen now. And they're fuzzy about the future, but they have an imagination that really works to their positive and their negative. Their positive is they can see what things could happen and make plans for them. Sixes are genius minds. And they're like, oh, that might happen, but we would do this. That might happen, but we would do this. So see, they're anxious, but they're not like just sitting in they're planning, they're preparing. That's such a gift, but it is also a hardship. And some sixes will tell you that when they feel fear about things and they worry about a future outcome, they feel it in their body like it's happening. So they will think about something bad happening and they will feel it in their body. They will have a sensation of what it would be like if that happened. And then they will create a plan for it. And I'm not a six, but to me, that sounds terrible. To feel that fear about all these things and then to use that fear to plan these amazing plans. Wow, that's incredible. But wow, that seems heavy and hard. And because that's sort of how they do it, they sort of visualize it. It's also why they're so passionate about making sure things don't go wrong. I mean, they are always trying to know the rules, create stability, want to know what's going to happen. And then they're always a little worried about it messing up. So it's needless to say sixes like control and they like order and they like rules and they like plans. They don't like flaky people. They don't like people who say they're going to do one thing and don't do it. Say they're going to be here and don't show up. That's going to make them feel very uncomfortable because they really are looking for stability. I think that sixes are very focused on community. They love to join groups. They are very loyal. They have high values. They don't have to be the boss. of a group they will if they feel like they need to or if they create their own thing but they're perfectly happy working behind the scenes they don't need a lot of credit they don't need a lot of attaboys they just want things to go well and be safe and sixes ask a lot of questions they are incredibly curious and sometimes that will feel like doubt to others like well you're just you're you're barraging me you're interrogating that's not what happening what's happening at all and they are really trying to care about you by asking you a lot of questions. Like, I want to know, well, what do you think about this? And what are you going to do if this happens? And it's not in this you're not prepared. It's I want to make sure you're prepared. And I want to know what you're going to do. And I want to think about it. They really don't doubt others as much as they doubt themselves. Sixers have a lot of self-doubt. They have a lot of what if I fail? What if I let these people down? What if I'm not prepared? And so they really sort of have this place where they sometimes don't trust themselves. They also are a little bit suspicious of others and can be really wary of people having hidden agendas. So sixes can sort of, and I would say to a six that, and they would go, well, I'm just realistic. Like they really, really think that a lot. Like, well, I'm just a realist. I know that everybody doesn't have good intentions. So I'm going to just kind of be wary and prepared that people might have ported intentions for me. And they're not really surprised when people do. So when people, hurt us as sixes. I mean, I'm hurt, but I'm not actually like shocked and surprised. I'm like, yeah, people are people. That's just what they do. So now these people are just, you know, going to do that thing and we just have to move on. They're real prepared in a way because they sort of aren't surprised that it happened. And it doesn't mean they don't trust everybody. And it doesn't mean they walk around not making connections. It just means in their back of their head, there's always been a little bit of a plan that somebody might not be good to them. It's just one of a million plans they might have. So when it happens, they're kind of like, okay, well, let's go with that. And that can be like, well, aren't you shocked? Aren't you surprised? Aren't you devastated? Yes. And I kind of considered it. So I'm already ready to move on. They are very clear with their goals. And I think as curious as sixes are, they love to answer other people's questions too. They love people to be curious about them. They love to give information. I think that they are so incredibly responsible. of caring for others. You know, we talk about that umbrella of safety. Sixes, I think, have the biggest umbrella. Like they are really wanting to care for and protect lots and lots of people. It's their house. It's their family. It's their partners. It's their co-workers. It's their community. It's their faith people. It's their neighborhood. They just have these huge umbrellas. And they just consider all of those people when they're planning. They consider all of those people. when they're thinking about what could go wrong or what could happen they are extremely kind and extremely loving and sixes hold our groups together i think that having sixes in groups because they are so loyal and because they are so committed they are like the glue of groups they they really are and that's you know again why they're called the loyalist is because they are just they just stick when you're their person you're their person and they've got you and they're gonna walk you through hard times and walk you through tough times and they're gonna have your back and they're gonna watch over you. And it's just a way that when they get into a group, whether it's an organization for business or it's an organization for a community, there's just a stability there that people are drawn to. And they're just like, I want to be in that group. I want to be with that person. Sixes don't measure time really well. So they just, it's just one of the characteristics of their number is that they just, they aren't as time conscious. It doesn't mean they're late all of the time. It just means things take longer or they can get into the zone and time kind of stops for them. in a way that it doesn't for other numbers. And I think that they are needing reassurance. So think about a six being a person who is always planning and always preparing and always trying to keep people safe and always trying to control things and make sure things are good. What they're hoping most of all is that they don't let themselves or others down. And so there's some love that telling a six they're doing a good job and telling a six that you can see all of the things they've done for them. That reassuring voice is is extremely loving and important for sixes. I think that one of the things about sixes that is the most true is that they have this belief that if they prepare and they cover all their bases and they do what's expected, everything will be okay. So that's happening at the same time they are planning for if everything is not okay. And I love the duality of that. Like they have this intense belief that, okay, I'm going to prepare and I'm going to do a good job and everything's going to go well. This optimistic, but underneath the surface they're like the duck just like okay but if it doesn't we're gonna do this and if we can't do this we can do this and if we can't do that we can do that and i just think that the beauty of that is just again the confidence of i really do believe it's going to be fine but i'm going to always prepare in case it doesn't is just really caring and loving to me for sixes um i think the sixes really like to think they are big thinkers they are big planners um they really really do have sort of a what if a what if kind of belief system like what if this what if this and it doesn't mean they're negative again they would just say they're realistic but that can feel kind of hard for people sometimes when it's constantly like well what if this happens and what if that doesn't do well and what if you're wrong so it can sometimes be hard um to be in the space of that and their anxiety doesn't look like other people's anxiety because sixes aren't going to sit with you and just worry they're going to plan and so it's like well we're just going to do this i'm going to do this and they're so resolute like okay well this is what we're doing and so again it can be hard for people that are just like sitting in their anxiety because they just want to sit there. But sixes are like, absolutely not. Let's make a plan. The wounded message that sixes hear as children is that they can't trust themselves. So this childhood message that sixes usually pick up is that they can't trust themselves. And so they start to trust plans and they start to trust, you know, goals and all of those things. And the healing message that sixes need to hear is that they're safe. You are safe. And once sixes believe they are safe, remind themselves they're safe, then they can start to let go of a lot of the behaviors that they've had as sixes in the past. So those are the things about our sixes. I think the ex, when you first described the phobic and the ex phobic, I was thinking I was phobic, but then the more you talked about it, I'm, and this has come with age, I'm a troublemaker. When it comes to work, If it's not a part of our mission, why are we doing this? Why are you asking me to do this? It's not what we're supposed to be doing. Where is it in our mission statement? What is the motivation behind this? Because I thought we were doing it for this and we're not. Same thing with the church. Oh, wait a minute. We're supposed to be unconditionally loving people. Where is that? I don't see that. And so where other people will just go with the flow because the boss at the end of the executive where a table is dictating it or the person in the pulpit is preaching it or the person in the head of the party or the government is saying it, we are supposed to fall in line and believe it. Like, no, wait a minute. So this critical thinking has always been a part of. But on the other hand, if it meets our mission, you know, the money is really not that important. I feel like I'm with you. I'm on board. If that's where we're going, I'm going to give you 100% and that's what my team's going to do as well. And we want to see that we're making a difference. You know, that is what motivates me. But as soon as somebody goes off on their own and their motivation becomes self-serving, I call it out, you know, because that was my job. As far as planning, I kind of have a double-edged sword here. I do like to do the five-year plan, but don't ask me to make the detailed plan on how to get there because I don't get into the details. I just, yeah, that sounds good. Or I think this is where I think we're headed. Or, hey, you know, this is where we're going to be in our careers. This is where our kids are going to be. This is where our relationship is going to be. So let's talk about what that might look like. So I'd like to do that a lot. And I like what you said about feeling in my body things that I haven't done. And I think I've shared this with Mrs. Jones before. The reason I could never cheat on her is because I already know what it feels like to cheat on her. Even though I've never done it, I know what it feels like. And so that feeling prevents me from even going to a place. And there's a lot of that that I can feel. I can feel feelings through other people, through their situation, through a drama, through music, the feelings that those things stir up, they're real feelings, but I also know that they're stirred up by something. It's not necessarily factual. It's just that I can feel it. About community, yeah, I mean, obviously we do have a community, but I also agree that I don't, I'm not necessarily, I may be the glue that's holding it together, but I don't own it. You know, it's owned by the members. It's owned by the people who are, who believe the same things that we believe or I believe. You know, curiosity was always a part of critical thinking and curiosity. If you don't give yourself permission to be curious, then you're really just doing the same thing over and over again and really not understanding why. You know, to be able to, to be able to ask any questions, of anybody at any time just out of curiosity without being accused of being a traitor or a troublemaker or i just like to you know get people to think of different things for different reasons because we fall into these patterns and especially as we age and i mean we're living in a community now where it's 55 and better and so many people here are just they're not going to change you know they're they're the ones that sit in front of tv every night and watch the same show I'm like, oh my gosh, let's be a little bit energetic and curious about life. What can we do now? And then, you know, hidden agendas, I've always, and this is where the lifestyle comes in, because I can see other men specifically when we're with another couple say one thing, but I can tell their motive is a little bit different. I may not know what the motive is, but I can feel that there is an ulterior motive, and I'm like, oh my gosh, let's be a little bit energetic and curious about life. What can we do now? And then, you know, hidden agendas, I've always, and this is where the lifestyle comes in, because I can see other men specifically when we're with another couple say one thing, but I can tell their motive is a little bit different. I may not know what the motive is, but I can feel that there is an ulterior motive, and I'm like, oh my gosh, let's be a little bit energetic and curious about life. What can we do now? And then, you know, hidden agendas, I've always, and this is where the lifestyle comes in, because I can see other men specifically, when we're with another couple say one thing, but I can tell their motive is a little bit different, but I can tell their motive is a little bit different. I may not know what the motive is, but I may not know what the motive is, but I can feel that there is an ulterior motive is, but I can feel that there is an ulterior motive. We call it your spidey sense. Yeah, my spidey sense. I said, this just doesn't seem right, or this, you know, I'm just sensing something. So, but that kind of goes back to what I said earlier in that what is your motivation? If your motivation is true to what you're saying, and it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be true to whatever the company or the church or the community or the couple, if you're in the lifestyle, what are you looking for? Why are you in this? And if people, don't answer those questions confidently, then I start to get a little bit worried. Well, maybe, you know, we should veer off in another direction. There's something going on here that I don't quite understand. So, yeah, those were just kind of the thoughts that, you know, but I think on the other hand, because I can feel those things, sometimes it's a curse, because that means if, you know, like Catherine and you all have said, Feelings is one thing, but how you act upon them is something completely different. So I've had to learn, even though that feels real, I could be misinterpreting the reaction to the feeling, and I've learned to just let it go. When Mrs. Jones sighs or puts something down a little bit too loud, I don't automatically just jump to a conclusion that I did something wrong or it's, you know, maybe it's that she just needs to express herself. And I try not to take, you know, ownership. Stay out of the way. Yes. Yes. Steer clear. And that shows the work you've done on yourself and in your relationship. There's a lot of people would feel that. They would feel that threat of her sighing or putting something down. And they would immediately take the conclusion of, well, I need to do something about it. Because again, sixes are going to be like, plan, do, make something happen. And you've learned to not have to do that. And I think that's really beautiful. And one of the things that, and to your point about having a backup plan or having something, you know, if something goes wrong, I do think that way. But part of what I say to Mrs. Jones all the time is, look, we've got a financial plan like everybody else. And okay, what if the market doesn't do this? What if this happens? Or what if the, you know, I'm like, you know what, we have been there before. And I have confidence that the two of us Well, if I need to go back to work or if you need to pick up a client or if we need to make an adjustment in life, we've done that before. So even if I don't have a specific plan, I have the confidence that we've been through life long enough now together that we're going to survive. We're going to come through it. So a lot of it on the planning side and having an ulterior plan is more just confidence that that I think together or as individuals, you know, we're going to find a way to overcome, you know, whatever it is that we need to overcome. Yeah, yeah. And I do feel a lot of that. You know, we talked about your numbers and stress and security. Your number in security is nine. And so I think you've also just come to a place in your life where you're probably spending a lot of time in that sort of traveling over to that nine, which is this just things will work out. Yeah. I just, things will be fine. Everything's going to be okay. One way or the other, it'll be, it'll work out. And that's so much nine energy. And I think you probably really do have some resonant in that because you are at this place where you've worked really hard to not be in so much day-to-day stress and so much whatever. And you're kind of in this, well, things are okay. And that allows you to pull in that energy from that triangle of feeling a lot of that nine energy, which is really interesting, which really makes a lot of sense. And where we are right now, I mean, the finality of life as we get older, I mean, we're in our 60s now. We're not going to be around forever. And we have a window of opportunity. You know, we're healthy. We've done everything you're supposed to do to prepare for this. But there's still a little bit of hesitation. Well, we're going to cut the cord. You know, we're not going to worry about income as much anymore. And it really is something, on the other hand, I look at my parents and how old they are and what they're able to do and not able to do. And I can do the math between their age and my age. And I can see that number shrinking. So I'm like motivated to like, while we have the resources and the time, this is when we really need to make the jump. But then on the other hand, there's a risk, you know, involved in that. Well, what if, what if this doesn't happen? What if that doesn't happen? But I, but you know, somebody I've heard people say, and I know this This is probably more of a saying that it is true, but I don't think many people get to a point later in life where they regret stopping working or stopping worrying about that. I wish I would have done that earlier. Or I'm glad that I did it when I did. Mrs. Jess, what do you think when you heard a lot of that six, did you feel a lot of like, yeah, that feels like some of his personality and some of the ways that he shows up in the world? You know, it's funny because like when I was trying to analyze my husband ahead I had him pegged as a nine. So I think it's very interesting that, you know, that that's part of what makes him tick. But I do see the six in him, like you described it perfectly. Like he, he is very much, very responsible, very much a leader in our family. He's the glue that holds us together. Like we wouldn't have any friends if it were up to me. Like I would stay home and watch TV and read my Kindle. Like, you know, he is the... They're joiners. Absolutely. Yes. He and that sense of community. Like, he likes to organize things. And, you know, we invite people over all the time. And that's him. That's him. Like, once he gets it on the calendar, then I'll, you know, plan the meal and kind of plan the evening out or the weekend out. Like, I jump on board and I'm with him. but he's the big idea and you know i say his head's in the cloud and mine's in the weeds you know but i guess when you put that together maybe we maybe our personalities do well and i know well even though we are so different i know when i tell her on monday morning that we've got something coming up this weekend i know how she's going to respond but i also know how she's going to respond friday night when we get to where we're going right you know she's going to say oh my gosh i feel so much better so So I can put up with the resistance because I know that when she gets out of this environment, it's going to pay dividends for me. And I'll tell you, that's why you're not a nine. Because a nine wouldn't go, they wouldn't overcome that conflict of her going, oh, I don't want to, and I don't want to. They would just be like, okay, fine, we won't. So that's the six. The six has a little bit more energy, a lot more energy, actually, to get stuff done, to make things happen. And nines don't have that much energy. So that is the joiner energy. Yeah, that's six all day long. Nines don't have a lot of joining energy. They're just, they're all so happy to sit home and read their Kindle. We would have a nice date night. Me and you, Mrs. Jones, us and our Kindles, we'd be so happy. So, well, so let's, let's talk about then the way you guys kind of said what you said, Mrs. Jones, the positive parts. What are the, what are the, the great things about a one and a six being in a relationship together? Well, there's four things that are really great. One is this idea of shared values and responsibilities. Both of these numbers are going to do what's right. They are going to take their commitments very seriously. They are going to value responsibility and honesty. And together, they're going to create a really stable, dependable, dependable foundation. You guys are both solid personalities. And that's a wonderful compliment to each other. I think there's also a sense of mutual trust and loyalty. We just talked about how loyal sixes are. ones are to be trusted above all else they are always going to be right and always going to be good and always going to be correct and you can always trust their integrity so you've created a bond where you guys don't have to worry about that like i know you've got me and i know you've got me too and that's a beautifulness about this partnership i think there's a complementary energy that's kind of what you said one person is going to be leading the charge about this and the other person is going to be like sure if that's important to you and the other person is going to be leading the charge about something else and the other person is going to follow along And so it's not that you both are going to be go about the same things, but you're going to complement. You're going to balance each other. And the things that you are passionate about, Mrs. Jones, Mr. Jones is going to be like, sure. And the things he leads you to, you're going to get there and be grateful that he did it. I think the last thing that's really positive is that both of these numbers are growth focused. There is an improvement level that shows up in both of these numbers for different reasons, but there is a self-awareness and a growth orientation that both of these personalities share, and it really encourages them both to be their best versions of each other. It's like, hey, I want you to grow, and I want you to relax, and I want you to try these things, and I want you to have more fun, and I want you to put the work aside, and I want you to not worry about things so much. That's what's happening in your union, and it's for both of your good, and which means it's for relationships good. You know, we've always said that we're each other's cheerleaders. Yes. And that we've always been brave enough to challenge each other. And I really think that, though, that's paying off now because we're watching our friends that we've had for decades become stagnant. And neither one of us want to do that. You know, and I think that, like, he won't let me stay at home, you know, because he knows that I'll have fun once I get out. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. Okay. So let's talk about a little bit of the challenges. And you guys have talked about these. And I think a lot of these, you've already created things to overcome them. But for people listening that are in the same, you know, complimentary connection, we'll share them with them. I think one of the ones is that both of these personalities share anxieties, but they express them so differently. So you both are have personalities that are going to be concerned about things, but you're going to express them in different ways. And both of your concerns are actually around what's safe. You know, for ones, safety is about being correct. And for sixes, safety is just about being prepared and planning and foreseeing danger and all of those things. So you both care about really similar things. It's just the expression of how we get there is different. So ones are going to like, let's do it right. And sixes are going to say, well, let's do it the way that gets us there. And let's see which way, you know, we might need to poke a hole this, especially for counterphobic sex, is like, well, yeah, this is saying it's that way, but I don't know if I trust that. We better go around the back door and make sure there's not a side entrance. That same idea, it's just going to be in a different expression. I think that this idea of judgment and doubt. So we talked about ones having a judging mind, that they're quickly going to judge. Well, that's, you're going to do that, Mrs. Jones. And then Mr. Jones is going to be like, well, but what about this? So he's going to doubt, he's going to have some doubt around the correctness of that, some doubt around the stability or the surety of that. And so that's going to show up as kind of a, well, I don't know if I want to really lean into that as hard as you do. I'm going to have to ask some questions you don't want. Once you've decided it's right, I don't want 500 questions. I just know it's right. It's right. See, it's in the book. It says it's right. And that's going to be a place of challenge. I think both of these numbers can be conflict avoidant. I think because they both sort of are afraid of the part of conflict that they don't like. So, sixes are afraid of disconnection. They don't want to be disconnected. They don't want to be abandoned. They don't want to be left unsecure. And ones are afraid of being angry and not being bad. So it can be a dance with conflict is that, you know, I don't want to get too disconnected from you and I don't want to get too mad at you. And so we have to kind of learn how to dance that dance around conflict. And the last thing is, I think both of these numbers really have a fear of failing or disappointing the other. Letting you down is a big concern. of mine. And so it's going to look different. I don't want, you know, the way ones are going to let people down is to not be good. The way sixes are going to let people down is our plan falls apart or our backup plan doesn't work or we somehow, you know, fail our community or fail whatever. But it's still both there. So we both are kind of wrestling with this. I don't want to let you down. And I think the answer to all of those is communication. It's this magic answer that's the answer to everything. But when we have these challenges and we know they exist. And we know that they're actually in service to us all wanting the best for each other. But just the fact that we want to do it differently or express it differently, it allows us to have this really amazing bridge. We both want the same things. We just want to get, we just look different. We both want the silverware to go in the drawers where it goes. It just looks different how it gets there. And we can have conversations around that. And it doesn't have to be a big deal or it doesn't have to be personal. And you can be frustrated when the spoons are with the knives because spoons and knives don't look alike. So I don't even understand. and how the spoons got with the knives. But we can talk about it in a way that doesn't feel like it's relationship damaging. It's just kind of the way it is. And we see it differently. And it's not that big of a deal to me. Yeah. You know, to just kind of illustrate an example of one of the hardest times in our marriage, it's when we were outed. And we were, it was like the second night after it happened. And we were laying in bed. And Mr. Jones said to me, this still makes me emotional. It's been eight years. He hugged me and he said, I feel like I failed you as a husband. Like he had led me into, you know, this life of like sin or whatever you want to call it. And, you know, and that he failed me as like the leader of our household, which is just the very traditional Christian. way to think about it but you know like i told him that night like we did this together like we decided together i did not just go along with it i wanted to do it too and i think that that was this this sense of being the the family leader and and being the glue that binds us together right i mean that's definitely what i'm hearing you say about a six yeah and then sure and then the thing that we still haven't figured out after four decades is that conflict. You know, that's where the personality types, I think, are still our biggest struggle. Because I do, like, I know he's not going to want to hear it because he's going to think I'm disappointed in him or whatever the case may be. So then I hold it in. And like you said, I have that anger. And then it just vomits out every now and again. And then I know it's going to be ugly. But I mean, actually, that's one thing that Catherine is helping us do. She's saying, we can't kick that can down the road. We have to talk about it. Yeah. One of the funniest things I heard someone describe, I was coaching a one and another number. I don't remember what the number was. And she was talking about it. And her, it was a woman. And her husband said, yeah, it's like suddenly it's volcano Sarah. And she just erupts with all of this magma of anger comes out of her. And then it's just like, she's back to being a Sunday school teacher. And then it's just, and he said, it's so disturbing because it's, I know it's been there, you know, building up. and building up that pressure, but she was just afraid. And he's like, but I'm more afraid of Volcano Sarah than I am of these low doses of anger that could happen every single day. And so again, and you're right, it's how do we manage the fear I have about this, but the need I have for this and how do we balance that? And again, the Enneagram is just another tool. You guys have so many tools in your toolkit. So many people listening have so many great tools in their toolkit. I hope that they consider adding this as just another thing they can use in their to really help them understand their partner and understand themselves and have compassion for both well just hearing you describe a six um you know now and and i guess i probably intuitively understood it anyway but to have it spelled out for me you know why why mr jones like doesn't like conflict because he's supposed to be the fixer he's supposed to you know kind of keep it all together and have a plan and if i'm you know contradicting All right. Well, before we let you go, how can people find you? And is there anything that you all have going on at Expansive Connection that you want to share? Sure, absolutely. People can always find us at our website, which is expansiveconnection.com slash ENM. And let's see what we have going on. I really think the thing I want to highlight is retreats. We are in retreat season and retreats have become something that are very passionate. So if they go there or they email us, we can give them lots of information about retreats. And we have our couples retreats in September of 2025 and in February of 2026 that we are filling up. And we're really excited about inviting some couples to come and spend that time with Catherine and I and work on their relationships. And we also have two ladies retreats that Catherine will be a part of one in October and one in November. And they're both happening in the Tennessee mountains. And one is about pleasure, the one in October, and one is about learning about menopause. And that's going we happened in November. So if I could share one thing, it would be, yeah, if you haven't been on one of our retreats or been on a retreat with us, it's a great way to see us in person and really do a deep dive on a topic or your relationship. All right. Well, thanks a lot, Kel, for joining us. And we'll see you again very soon. Thank you so much. We would love for you to join our We Got A Thing community. You can find information on our website at wegotathing.com, W-E-G-O-T-T-A-T-H-I-N-G.com. Or you can contact us either through our website or you can send me an email. MrJones, M-R-J-O-N-E-S, at WeGotAThing.com. Or me at MrsJones at WeGotAThing.com. So thanks for listening. We are Mr. and Mrs. Jones and We Got a Thing. What's your thing? We'll see you next time.