Episode 136: The Enneagram- Know Your Number!

Transcript

Speaker1: This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey, you teenagers out there. If you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us? Welcome back, Cal. It's good to have you again and we're happy, well, I think we're going to be happy to talk about this Enneagram stuff. Evidently, we did this a few years ago. And my memory being what it was, or what it is, I remember taking the Enneagram test, but I don't remember much of anything after that. I just remember we were not the same. Shockingly, shockingly, we're not the same. You're going to love this. This is going to be super fun. And as hard as it has been to type you, and I'm not even 100% sure we have your number right, Mr. Jones, then yeah this should be an interesting an interesting conversation for everyone so so when he says he's a simple person we can just throw the flag and say no you're not i agree i agree you know what i i had this problem before when i worked for a company and we had to do this personality test i don't remember which one it was and i and i scored high or medium on several of them and it was frustrating because i want i want to understand myself better and How can I do that if I'm scoring high on three or four of the things? And anyway, I'm sure by the end of this conversation, I'll feel much more informed and much better about who the heck I really am. And more importantly, hopefully I'll understand you better as well. Yes, get right to the goal, Mrs. Jones. She's jumping ahead again. So anyway, Kel, before we get started, I know people know who you are, but just take a minute and introduce yourself. Absolutely. I'm Kel. And I'm one of the four coaches with the Expansive Connection coaching team. And we are a group of coaches that are thrilled to be affiliated with the amazing We Got a Thing community. And we all are practicing non-monogamists and also practicing coaches. So we work with people in their relationships, especially in the vein of their journey into non-monogamy. So I'm thrilled to be here talking to you guys again today. All right. Well, you know what? I'm going to do something that I'm probably going to learn about myself. But I am turning this entire podcast episode over to you, Kel. I can't even say it with a straight face. But no, you're going to take it and run with it. And we are going to just respond and ask questions when we feel like we need to jump in. But we're really interested to learn a little bit about why this is two episodes and then you going right into what this Enneagram stuff is. Absolutely. I'm happy to. Thank you, first of all, for trusting me with your baby here and letting me drive the ship a minute on this podcast. But I, first of all, want to say I love the Enneagram. It is a tool that I am passionate about. I have been trained and been learning about the Enneagram for about five years now. I've gotten certified as an Enneagram coach. I have trained under about three or four different modalities. I love learning. It is one of my favorite things. But when I learned about the Enneagram, It made so much sense to me and opened my eyes in a way about myself that I felt like I had not experienced up to that point. And so I love the idea of being able to come on and teach you and your listeners about it as a tool that they can use. And also the idea that they may use it to make their relationships better, to have more compassion and more understanding for themselves and others, which is really what the Enneagram is a gift to. So we're going to talk in this first episode all about all things Enneagram. I'm going to I'm going to talk about the numbers. I'm going to talk about this tool and why I like it and why I think other people would really get a lot of benefit out of knowing it and out of learning it and using it in their lives. And then we are going to do a little exercise where I actually allow you two to be in a coaching session that I would do as an Enneagram coach with a couple. So again, we talked about this as being a tool and it's one of the tools that I use as a coach to help couples understand their differences. And you guys were so kind and generous to have me a couple a couple of months ago where we talked about why differences are so beneficial for us. Sometimes we hate them, we don't like them, but why are they really good for us? And this is sort of just a continuation on that vein in we are different. Let's all be aware of it. Let's not pretend it's not true anymore. And let's even lean a little bit more into understanding the difference between us and then using that as instead of a conflict idea, a compassion and a more communicating way to talk to each other. So if I can learn your language, And then I can start to speak it to you. Wow, we just made our relationship a lot easier. So we're going to take an opportunity in that future episode. And the three of us will have a coaching session. And I'm going to teach you all about each other, things you haven't known in decades. It's going to be so eye-opening. It's just going to be nirvana for your relationship. I'm really excited. I think after 40 years, we probably should have done this maybe a little sooner in life. There's no time like the present. Absolutely. There's no time like the present, Mr. Jones. We're going to do it today. and it's going to be life changing. I make big promises. So first of all, what is the Enneagram? What are we talking about? People that have tuned in are like, what is this weird word they keep saying over and over again? And what does that mean? The Enneagram is a personality typing system. It is a system of putting people into big categories based on their personality. And the Enneagram has nine types and they are all given a number one through nine. If you look the Enneagram up, you're going to see a symbol that's sort of a circle. with nine numbers around and all these crazy lines going everywhere. And that's the tool. So this is not a belief system. It's not a religion. It is not a one-stop shop for every single thing about you. It is just a way to help people identify with a number that represents their personality. And so before we get too far ahead of ourselves, well, what's personality? Because a lot of people will complain about the use of the Enneagram and what they complain about it and what I think their complaint really boils down is, they will hear people talk about the Enneagram and they will not feel very seen. They will not feel like that encompasses all of who they are, that people are just boiling them down to some number. Well, that's not it at all. Your personality is a part of you. It is not who you are. We are not our personalities. Our personalities are the masks we pick up as children and how we interface with others. So you don't need a personality with yourself. you and you there's no personality you don't need it it's not necessary because you being with yourself is really you being you but the minute i put someone else in the room the minute i bring another human being onto the scene how you're going to interact with others and that could be one person it could be a hundred people it could be your family it could be society you learn skills you learn a mask you learn a way based on and what the enneagram uses which is so beautiful your motivations and It just sort of designs how you interact. And it's so wonderful to know that there are 7 billion people in the world. Most people are going to fall and identify into one of these buckets. So you aren't alone in this way that you see the world. And that's really what the Enneagram is. It's how you see the world through your personality. And the idea that you see it differently than the people around you, at first could be a little jarring, but is actually very, very soothing. because now I know everybody in the world is just not doing it wrong and I'm doing it right they don't see what I see they aren't seeing the facts on the ground the way I see them and then reacting in a bad way they see the facts completely different and they're just reacting in their way and I think that's so incredibly freeing from some of the just judgment and conflict that we have with people we can let that go and so for me this is sort of a map of nine different ways to see the world and Once I know what yours is, and once I know what your partner's is, I can allow you to step behind them and see a totally different way to see the world. And that is really a beautiful gift to give someone in a relationship for sure. So do you think when people come to you, at least, and do people come to you and say, hey, I've heard about this Enneagram, I want to learn more about it? Or do they come to you for help? And one of your observations is, you know what, they might not understand who their other person is. I should bring this up as a recommendation. Both. Both. I have people that come to me and know that I am certified in the Enneagram and do coaching in the Enneagram and they know a little about it and they think it would be super. And usually the way that happens, Mr. Jones, is one person in the couple knows about the Enneagram and they're like, oh, this would really be helpful. And they know there are two and they think their husband's a seven and they want to talk about it. And so they bring it up in session. And we do that work and it's wonderful. Often I will see couples struggling. with different ways of seeing the world. And they are stuck in this mindset that there is one correct or one only way to see the world and their partner's just not getting it. And I can bring this in as a tool to bust that open and allow them to go, oh my gosh, I had no idea that this is what you were motivated by and this is what you were afraid of. And it's so different than what motivates me and what I'm afraid of. And so it really allows, I think again, that word, you're going to hear me say this word a dozen times, compassion. I'm not so angry with you for doing it. it wrong. I suddenly have this deep well of compassion for how hard it is for you to see things the way you see them. And I just think that's a beautiful thing. And so again, this is a tool. This is not a methodology. This is not a spiritual, you know, religion. It's a tool. It is a thing to use. And there are tons of personality tools. Myers-Briggs, Strength Finders, there's tons of them out there. This is just my favorite. And the reason it is my favorite is because of the things I've mentioned. It's based on motivation. Look, I can do a personality test of things that are observable. Behaviors. But if we both do the same thing, but we do it for completely different reasons, I'm not really getting at the heart of what's happening here. So behaviors can be fake. Behaviors can be aspirational. But motivation, the why inside of me is totally different. And the Enneagram doesn't judge behaviors. It judges motivation. So it's going to really have two drives for every person. And one is going to be what you are motivated towards. what you're trying to get and the other thing is what you're afraid and you're trying to move away from. So every number is going to be decided by those two things and they are different for each personality type. And so when we talk about drive, we talk about motivation. The other reason I love the Enneagram is because a lot of people will come and what they truly want is to change. You know, I know that I have this tendency to get stuck and not be able to make a decision and to procrastinate. Now what? You know, okay, so I can observe that behavior, but I don't know what to do about it. Well, using the Enneagram, I can figure out the why of that behavior. And then I can start to figure out how to mitigate that why with different behavior. So the thing about the Enneagram is once I know what I'm afraid of, I can start to figure out what else I can do to mitigate that fear versus the thing I keep doing that's making my life harder or making my partner's life harder and so on and so forth. So it sounds like the meat of this is fear and motivation and how you have been conditioned through life, whatever those circumstances are. So do you know why there's nine and not six or twelve? So let's talk a little history. One thing I'll say about the Enneagram is it is very trendy right now. The Enneagram is having a moment and it's everywhere. And a lot of people are talking about it. And a lot of people will have heard about it. If you haven't heard about it, ask your college-age kids about it. When my college-age kid was dating a girl and she found out I was an Enneagram coach, I got calls from every sorority sister she had wanting to know all about all of the things I knew about the Enneagram. But it isn't a new thing. It's an old thing. So the idea of the Enneagram dates back hundreds of years. And people saw it in reference to mysticism. They saw it in old Christian traditions. In Greek philosophy, there's some ideas about it. And the reason there are nine is because it was sort of based on the idea of the seven deadly sins. In old Enneagram language, we use the idea that each personality has a sin. Now we kind of use this idea of passion. It's sort of this big feeling that they feel. And so we just took those seven and added two more. So it is an old system. It was sort of this idea about inner transformation. It was this kind of just universal truths about people that people had seen way back in the before we wrote things down and talked about it and it was an oral tradition. You shared it with people orally and they sort of taught it, which is still a great way to learn the Enneagram. And so then in the 1900s, the diagram was created and people started to see it as sort of this typing. And then in the 70s, it started, the 1970s, it started showing up in literature around psychology. So people started to assign it as a typing system. We could type people into these nine numbers. They started to name them. They started to get some information about it. Then in the 1980s, it really went on the scene because some great books were written. Rizzo and Hudson wrote their fame as The Wisdom of the Enneagram. And that book really took off, especially in evangelical Christian circles. So the church picked it up and was like, oh, we recognize words like sin and words like fear and words like lust and envy. We're all about this. And they kind of disseminated it amongst their congregations. And it really got some mainstream press. Now, today, it's still used in a lot of Christian faiths. But it is used in business. It's used in team building. Because again, if I'm building a team at work, I need all of these numbers. You know, I don't need a team full of nines. Wow, that would be a terrible team. They would get along beautifully. They would get very little done. So I need a team that's made up of a bunch of different personalities. Also, what better way to manage your employees than to know what motivates them? Because a lot of times people are, businesses are trying to give people the same reward. and pizza or money don't work for everybody. But if I've got a lot of threes on my team, they need awards. They need accolades. They need praise. They need achievements. They need, you know, little medals that we put on their desk that says they're the number one whatever every quarter. Well, I need to know that because that's what I'm going to want to do to motivate them. So it's used in leadership. It's used in teams. It's used in coaching. And again, it caught fire in social media. The Enneagram is made for social media. There's tons of influencers. and tons of memes and tons of images that use the Enneagram. So it's a new thing for a lot of people, what is an old system that has been around a really long time. So let's talk about, again, what people care about. So as we talk about the numbers, which we're going to dive into in just a minute, I always tell people, how do I figure out what number I am? Because again, you know, people are interested in the things that matter to them and what personality I am matters a lot to me. So I've got a typing that I like. I don't recommend a ton of different, you know, if you're taking an Enneagram test and there's 12 questions, it's not going to work. There's a very long form one that the Enneagram Institute uses. It's 165 questions. Buckle up. You're going to be there a while. I think it costs about $16. It's a good one. But what actually works for people to figure out their number is a little bit more study. this podcast today, and they're going to get to the end, and they probably are not going to know which number they are, with a couple of exceptions. There's a couple numbers that have bells that ring, and that's true. But everybody else is probably going to be like, well, maybe I'm a three, but maybe I'm a seven. Okay, great. Dig deeper. There is information about the Enneagram everywhere. You can find a podcast, you can find a book, you can find somebody that teaches about it anywhere. So I would really recommend that people listen today and think about what resonates with them. Some numbers are not going to resonate with you at all. Some numbers are going to hear that personality and you're going to go, oh my gosh, I can't believe there are people that this is their personality. I couldn't be that if I tried. But some are going to feel resonant. You're going to be like, oh, that sounds like me. And I'll tell you, another reason I love the Enneagram is the ones that make you uncomfortable, ding, that's probably the ones that are about you. Because it does get into us. It's a, again, it's a, this is what you think. This is what you feel. And that's kind of unnerving for people. So when you hear a number and it makes you uncomfortable, I'd write that one down. That might be one you want to do some more digging on. But I think the way that people can figure out their number is there are some tests. You know, I do a different typing than just a test. It's a series of questions that people read. And then I kind of follow up with some emails and really kind of dig into it. And I've sat down with typings where people, we get five minutes in and they're like, yep, that's not my number. And we have to zig and zag into a different number and figure it out. it out, because it's really something you feel to figure out what number you are. Are there combination or pairs of numbers that when you sit with a couple, you go, oh my gosh, this is going to be a tough one? Like, are there numbers that pair together? I don't know what the right word is. Easier than others. Are there complementary numbers? Yeah. So let's back up one step. There's no good numbers and no bad numbers. There's not, you know, I was speaking at a conference once about Enneagram. And I gave my talk and one of the guys, it was a business conference and this guy raised his hand in the back of the room and I said, yes, sir. And he said, yes, I'd like to make my kid a one. He's two. So how can I do that? And I stood second and I said, first of all, why do you not like your kid? Because being a one is really hard. And two, you can't do that. You know, so we don't get to, there's not great numbers that we all want to aspire to. Also, Enneagram numbers are set. So before we get too far and people are like, well, it used to be a two and now a seven. No, that's not true. by the time we're five our personalities are kind of set anybody that has kids knows your kid is born and you nurture a little and you nature a little but they kind of have this for better or worse personality by the time they go to kindergarten and that kind of sticks with them for a very long time and that's how in your gram works so your number is the same your whole life it's pretty much set by the time you're a child there are no better or worse and so in relationships they're not really better or worse i think there are more challenging personality combinations than others i will tell you you would I think this wouldn't be true, but two of the same numbers is one of the hardest combinations to have. And you think, well, gosh, that would just be easy straight. We both see the same things and we both do the same things and it's not. And so I think that there are numbers and when we talk next time about you guys' numbers, yeah, there's challenges in every combination because there's challenges for every personality and there's challenges being partnered with every personality. So yeah, there's not more problematic. There's maybe a little bit more challenging. There's no complimentary. a couple can make their personalities work together with some tools and skills so. That's funny I was as you were telling that anecdote of at the conference and about the father I was thinking that when when if I were to go to Mrs. Jones's father and ask for her hand in marriage instead of giving me a blessing he really should say do you realize she's a one or you're going to need to be this if you think you're going to be able to live with the one. And for those of you who are not on video, Mrs. Jones is not laughing at this point. No, she's not laughing. She's not laughing. And before we start talking, we will self-disclose our numbers so that people who are listening will know where we're coming from as our numbers. And so per our typing, Mrs. Jones is a one, Mr. Jones is a six, and I am a nine. So just so people are listening and they'll know where we're coming from, those are our numbers. And I will tell you, typing others is impossible. So let's also talk about as you listen to this, you're going to listen for yourself and you're going to really lean into, I think I might be a three. You are not going to go, oh, and my husband is a seven, and I am sure of it, and I'm going to go tell him right now. No. And I will tell you, one of the shames of my Enneagram coaching journey is I have no idea what number my husband is. I know my kids. That was easy as pie. I don't know what his number is. We have talked about it off and on for five years. He has taken a test, and he gets a bunch of different answers. He's a lot like you, Mr. Jones. He gets a bunch of different things. He takes it one week and it's this. I go back to him a year later. He gets a totally different thing. I'm like, why are you so difficult? I don't understand what's happening. But I live with this person. I have lived with him for 24 years. And I have no idea what his Enneagram number is. So if I can't type him, you can't type your person just by listening to this in your car and then going home and being an expert. So please don't do that. People don't like to be told what their type is. And it's very difficult to figure out what someone else is. Because again, what I can see is his behavior. And as much as I know him, and as long as I've known him, I really don't know all of his motivations. Right. Well, maybe you're just such an influence on him that he's evolving through the numbers to become this perfect being. That's what you're doing. Or he has multiple personality disorder and he's just going to create personality through. I don't know. I don't know what's happening. I just know that I don't know what he is. about the numbers. So what's going to happen is your listeners and you guys are going to hear me say a little bit about each number. This information is not going to be a deep dive. Why? Because you can find this information anywhere. There are so many great teachers out there and there's so many great podcasts out there that would do just as much in a little different spin on these numbers. So I'm not going to take, you know, if we were going to talk about every single thing, about every single number, we would be here till December. So we're not going to do that. And I'm not going to go into all of the different things about each number because again we'd be here till december so this is going to be a very high level very kind of skimmy um about each number but i think it'll give people a sense about each one and if they feel like that's their number then they can deep dive a little bit more into each one so just to kind of give a disclaimer at the beginning you're not going to leave this and be an expert on each number and we would be here forever so okay so let's get started and talk about our numbers and i always start talking about enneagram numbers in order A lot of people start at nine and they go around, but I start with one and just go all the way around. So that's what we're going to start with today. And the beautiful and amazing Mrs. Jones is a one. So we'll start with her number, which seems fitting. So ones are, are, and there's nicknames for the numbers because it would be kind of boring to be like, well, I'm a one and people do not really know what that means. So there's lots of sort of pet names or nicknames for the numbers. And a lot of them are hard for me sometimes to get my head around. I'm like, Oh, what's that mean? An enthusiast. What's that? And one's nickname nails them. And it's perfectionist. So ones are our perfectionists. They also are known as reformers, which I also think is a nice way to think about them. I think that's nice. Yes, I do, too. I do, too. I like the first one. But people can resonate with that perfectionist. They're like, oh, yeah, I got one of those. And so there's a core desire and a core fear we're going to talk about for each number. So the core desire for ones is to be good, to be right. to be ethical or moral, whichever of those feel the most resonant to them, it is to do things in a correct way. And their fear, which we'll see this often is sort of the inverse, is to be bad, to be wrong. So correct, what I'm trying to go for, good, bad is what I'm trying to always be away from. And I told you that there's a couple of bells that we can ring for numbers that are 100% that is what you are. and the ones have it. And what the ones thing that is a just deal breaker, you are a one if you have this that other numbers don't have, is ones usually as long as they can remember have had an inner voice that was very mean and critical to them. So everyone has self-talk, everyone has talking to themselves in some ways, but ones have this constant loud voice that is chronically telling them all of the things they have done wrong or are doing wrong or may do wrong in the future. And I want to say right at the beginning, being a one is really hard. You know, of all of the numbers, I have so much compassion for ones because I can't imagine having that level of criticism happening in my head. I always say I don't need anybody to tell me what I've done wrong because I've already beat myself up a hundred times in my own head. Absolutely. Because that's the right way to be. Absolutely. Good job. Absolutely. And so when we think about the numbers, we're going to kind of talk about this in two ways. What does it feel like to be a one? And what does it feel like to be in relationship with a one? I think that's going to resonate with the most people that are listening. So what it feels like to be a one is what we just said. To have this harsh voice in your head constantly telling you what you've done wrong. It also feels like this compulsion to improve. So ones are incredible because they have an ability to correct and perfect and improve everything. Ones come into a room and they survey the room and they instantly like that could be better. They have this gift of improvement. But they also have this compulsion to improve. So if I see something that could be better, it's hard for me to sit on my hands and not make it better. And it's hard for me to see things in you that could be better and not point them out to you so you can be better. See where I'm going with that? Oh, yes. Can't we just skip to part two? No, you have to be patient. Darn. I did give up control. Yes, you did. I'm driving and we are going to do our little bit of one and we'll go deeper next time we talk so ones are always trying to be good they're constantly trying to be good and they are always trying to find a way to make that happen for them and their loved ones you know every number umbrellas the people it loves underneath it so when I'm a one I want everybody to be good that I care about and I want everybody to be perfect that I care about you know we never really live in a vacuum when we're relational beings I kind of umbrella everyone under my oneness. And that means I'm taking everybody with me and I want everybody to be as good as they can possibly be. So what that's going to feel like for me as a one is I'm going to see you and I'm going to point out the things that I think you could be better at. And I don't understand why you don't want to hear that. Because why would you not want to know this about yourself? So a little story. For a long time, I thought my husband was a one. I'm not sure. Again, he's all the numbers. So I could have a story for him. about every number, but this one is really one light. I am the driver. You know, every couple has a driver and a passenger. And so, you know, a lot of people, one person's the driver and one person's the passenger princess. Well, you know, he's the passenger princess and I'm the driver. And I just like to drive. I don't like to sit still. Being in a car ride is like agony for me. So I like to drive. However, I'm a really bad driver. And we'll talk about my number later about why I'm a bad driver, but I'm a terrible driver. I'm not a good driver. I stop at green lights. I never know what the speed limit is ever. I go the wrong way. way, not on the wrong way on the roads, but like, I'll go one way and he'll be sitting there, but why are you going this way? I'm like, I don't know. This was the road I followed. I don't know where we're going. So he constantly, I don't know, I've driven us for 25 years and I really don't know if we've ever ridden a car together where he didn't point out a flaw in my driving. That is a one thing to do. He is not trying to be harsh, trying to be critical. He loves me and doesn't want me to die in a car crash. So he is criticizing what I'm doing out of love. So ones love you by criticizing you. It's their love language. Hey, it'd be great if you this. You'd be happier if you did this. That's what they do. So then what does it feel like to be in relationship with the one to bounce off that? It feels like being loved with criticism. It feels like being with someone who struggles to see you in a way that is without flaws. Now, it doesn't mean all of the time they do that. but it's like you just kind of always have a little something you know it's like oh there's a little something on your face right there like there's just never a time where there's just nothing to be pointed out about yeah so that's what it feels like to be in relationship with the one it also feels like having a partner who you know is the most responsible human being you've ever met it is being with someone who has the utmost integrity it is being with someone who you know at the end of the day will never do anything that will worry you or make you nervous or scare you. They are steady eddies. They've got it. They're going to do their best. They're going to do things well. You can depend on them with everything. But it also feels like someone who struggles to relax. It also feels like being with someone who when you go to them, as Mrs. Jones just said, and say, hey, by the way, you got a little something right there on your face. to it. Because again, I'm always trying to make sure that I'm good and I'm perfect and I've got my things together. And when you come to me with information, either I've already told myself that three times. So it's, you're just another loud voice in the crowd of my head, or you got me on something I didn't see. And that is scary to a one. So anytime you bring criticism to a one, you're either stoking the fires of their loud inner critic, or you are exposing a place where they missed it. And that makes them feel really afraid so yeah it's a difficult place to be but it is a loving place to be it is a kind place to be no one takes care of their people like a one so it's it's a really safe place to be too okay so let's move on to our twos we'll come back to ones in our next episode twos twos are our helpers and our givers so twos core desire is to feel loved and needed to love them and need them. And they're afraid of being not needed and not wanted. Mainly not wanted. I don't want you. I don't have to have you around being discarded is what twos are afraid of. So what does it feel like to be a two? Twos have this ability to see and feel and know what other people need. So this is an, they feel it in their bodies. It's, it's a integral part of them. It's an empathetic, an empathetic kind of gift. but it's also just a sense so twos come into a space and they instantly feel other people's emotions and not only do they feel the emotions and just kind of get caught up in that they think i know what they need they need a hug they need a blanket they need a glass of wine and they go do it so i'm coming into a space i'm feeling your emotions i'm knowing what you need and i feel compelled to go and get it for you so they are very these are the definition of people pleasers Like, this is your people pleaser personality. I know what people want. I know what people need. I'm going to do it. So they are generous. They are all about others. And they are really auto helpers. So if you've ever been in a relationship with someone and it's just like before you even ask, they're right there doing it or they're right there handling it, they might be a two on the Enneagram because they foresaw what you wanted and they were right there doing it. twos to feel their own feelings i don't feel my feelings i feel your feelings so when you are a two and someone comes to you and says well what can i do for you i don't know i have no idea i don't know what i'm not i'm not oriented that way i'm oriented out i'm not oriented in twos also think everybody else can do this so again we all kind of think everybody's our number and they're just doing it wrong twos feel that way a lot so twos Those live with a low simmering resentment about other people not towing them back. So the amazing and lovely Catherine is a two on the Enneagram. And I often have to tell Catherine, Catherine, no one else is going to Catherine you because she's overdoing and she's overloving and she knows what everybody needs. And then she's standing there going, why don't they do that for me? Because they're not a two. So it's a struggle for twos because they often feel like they don't get their needs met. They don't get their desires answered. And it's because they don't say them out loud because they think everyone else has the ability that they have to know them. So they kind of feel that way. When you have friends that are twos and you're not a two, I kind of feel guilty. Of course. Because they do so many nice things for me. And I'm just, I'm oblivious that, you know, I need to do that back. I mean, I guess I logically know it, but it doesn't come naturally to me. Because you're not a two. Absolutely. So twos have to always work to advocate. for themselves, to learn what they need and realize these people are not going to guess it. I am in charge of speaking it out into existence. So what does it feel like to be in relationship with the two? Well, first, you can feel some of that resentment from them. You can feel a little of the cold shoulder that all of a sudden you're getting from them when they've decided it's their third anniversary of your first date and you don't remember, but of course they know it and they know what you would like, or they get sick and you don't know that they love this tea and they like this blanket and they should this thing on Netflix because they know all of that about you. So it's, it's, there's some strife there when you don't show up the way they show up and they get a little upset with you. I think that twos also feel a possession of others because they sort of feel like they've done so much for you and know so much about you and are so valuable to you that you, you belong to them. And so twos really can be possessive of people because they feel like they've got so much invested in you and they don't want you to go off and find somebody else to do it the way they do it. And so they can be kind of clinging with people. But twos, to be loved by a two, is to be loved in an unconditional way that is so incredibly generous and warm. It is like the warmest, softest pajamas and blanket you have ever been enveloped with. It is to be seen in that way, to be loved in that way, to be doted on without even asking it. It is every wonderful thing about being in a loving relationship is what it feels like to be with a two. It is so warm and so gracious. Until they passively aggressively are mad at you because you didn't know what they wanted as well. So. All right. So threes. Threes are our achievers and our performers. And threes poor motivation is to be successful and admired. Let me say, for a lot of threes, that means what we as the world in our American culture consider successful and worthy of being admiration. It is very image conscious. It is very what you drive, what you wear, where you go to school, where you live, what team you follow, how high on the corporate ladder you have climbed. A lot of threes are classically that way. My son is a three, and he has been the three-est three you've ever met since he was five. The kid went to school. with a belt in kindergarten because he was like, well, this is what kids that go to school. I need to look like I'm serious about kindergarten. I was like, dude, your friends are not even making it to the bathroom on time and we're wearing a belt to kindergarten. But that was the image he wanted to portray. I am studious. I am serious about it. And he has been that way his whole life. For some threes, that's not what they want to be successful at. They want to be seen as the most generous human being, the most giving, the most, you know, you know community minded so it might not be don't get caught up on you could be a three and you don't care a bit about what car you drop or what clothes you wear but man you want to be admired for the way you work your neighborhood you want people to know that you're a PTA president and you care about that and that's a big deal for you so they are always looking for success and admiration and they are running away from this idea of being a failure because if they are a failure then why would anyone want them if I'm not If I'm not winning the awards, if I'm not getting the praise, then what does anybody want with me to begin with? So what it feels like to be a three is to be driven. Threes get stuff done. They make the world go round. Threes are the ones that are to get there. I have to do this, this, and this, so I'm going to do it. And because they are ambitious and they're ambitious about what people can notice about them, they do great things. I mean, even somebody that wants to be the best community activist, man, they're going to rock being a community activist. and everybody is going to love them. And the way threes do that is they have this ability. We talked about twos and neighbor numbers are going to be similar. So twos can read you and know what you want and what you need. Threes can read a room and know what the room wants and what the room needs. And that's totally different. So if I'm a three and I come into a space, I'm going to pick up on what that space wants and needs me to be and I'm going to do it. So threes are our motivational speakers. pastors threes are our politicians because from a young age they could run a room and if you can run a room you can run a group if you can run a group you can run an organization so threes are always going to be our super achievers or high up in you know business or in again religion whatever kind of thing they're going to find some success and i think to be a three it also feels very scary because you don't let people see beyond your successes. It is hard for threes to show people their failures. It is hard for threes to be authentic about the places they struggle because they think people are there for the good. They're for the wins. They're there for the medals and they don't want to hear the costs and they don't want to know the strife. So threes tend to be emotionally distant. They feel their feelings, but then they set their feelings aside because I don't need that. That doesn't help me achieve. And then they don't ever go back to their feelings. So what it feels like to be in a relationship with the three is it can be very emotionally distant. When you're trying to get deep with them about their hurts and their vulnerabilities, they don't really have time for that. That doesn't serve their goals. And so it can feel sort of lonely to be in a relationship with a three because you don't ever know where it's hard for them. You know, they're always just showing up and they want you to say, good job. Well, that's, I'm stuck in this treadmill of I got to come up with all the good stuff and I got to hide the other stuff. And they can be sort of secretive about their hidden things. Threes, have a confidence that everyone loves. Being married to a three, being in a relationship with a three is this inspiring, confident person that is just coming into a room and everyone loves them. Everyone flocks to them and everyone follows them. So it's being with someone very charismatic, very just natural leader, natural decision maker, which is great. But in intimate spaces, when it's just you, they are needing those accolades. They're like bugging you about, the, well, did you see what I did today? Did you hear what I did today? They want that praise because that's kind of how what runs their tank is praise. And so again, they can get a little antsy if you aren't going, good job, because that's sort of what fuels them. Fours. Fours are a lot of teachers of the Enneagram feel like the rarest of all of the numbers on the Enneagram. So most people that teach the Enneagram think there are fewer fours in the world than any other number. Some teachers will tell you you'll never meet a four. And fours are our and our individualists. So fours are motivated to be understood, but how they want to be understood is as these very unique creatures. So fours believe that they are flawed. Now, again, we talked about ones earlier. They believe they're bad. This is different. Fours don't think they're bad. They think something's sort of wrong with them. And nobody else either has the thing they have or everybody else has this thing. that they're lacking. And that makes them feel sort of like they're one in a million. And sometimes in a good way, but most of the time in a bad way. So they want you to get them and understand them, but you can't possibly get them and understand them because they're so weird and rare and flawed. So they want this thing that they can't really get, and they're afraid, their fear is to be disconnected from people emotionally. So fours, to be a four, feels like needing and wanting the most deeply intense emotional connections of any other human. Fours want deep emotional relationships. They want to talk about deep things. Please don't corner a four with small talk. They will run because they want to talk about your saddest memory or your highest high or the thing that you did in the past that you regret more than anything. That's the kind of information you're going to get from a four. they are wistful they are nostalgic so fours sort of live in this if only i could go back to this moment in time they kind of sugarcoat their past in this way of like i've already had the most beautiful sunset that has ever occurred and i'm never going to have a sunset that was as beautiful as the one in 1989 when i was on the shores of long island that's how they think everything is this big grand thing and they've missed it it's behind them now so they kind of have this melancholy way about them where they're just sort of moody and broody. And they're fine with that. They're okay with that. They're not, you know, trying to cheer up before is a waste of time because they don't want to move and they're comfortable there. So leave them. They're fine. They're wistful and they just are comfortable suffering, but they wish they didn't suffer. So I'm comfortable here, but they always kind of have this, I wish I could be like everybody else. I wish I could be fancy free and footloose and just lounge around my days and not feel I feel this burden that I feel of deep emotion. You know, a teacher I love says that the emotional roller coaster that a lot of people will go on over the course of a month, fours go over four or five times a day. It is feeling. They are feeling all kinds of feelings. And they like it. They don't like mundane. They don't like ordinary. They want to be the saddest sad they've ever been or the happiest happy they've ever been. And anywhere in between is kind of a waste of their time. So what's it feel like to be in a relationship with a 4? Well, honestly, I haven't talked to a whole lot of people who are 4s. I have several. I will tell you, one of the most rewarding things is one time I coached a woman and she had been actually diagnosed as someone who had bipolar disorder. And she just really was struggling and it wasn't really, you know, what was happening for her. And we did an Enneagram test and she was a 4. And we started, she deep dived, I mean, because 4s deep dive, they love to deep into things. And she came back to me and she said, I don't think I have bipolar disorder. I think I'm a four on the Enneagram and these mood swings are just who I am and I don't want to change and I don't need to change and this is not you know and she had just been as a young person she was so moody her parents took her to a psychiatrist and they're like oh well this is what's wrong with you and really nothing was wrong with her at all she just had a personality that was incredibly mood swing driven and incredibly broody and she was just one of those classic teenagers and her parents didn't know what to do with her so being in relationship with someone like that is tough this fours want to get all the time. Like, I couldn't do it. I'd be like, I can't be the saddest sad again. It's just Thursday. Like, can we just get a pizza? I don't have it in me to do that. And I think that fours feel misunderstood and they are constantly telling you you misunderstand them. And that's also hard to have someone that you love tell you you don't get them. And fours really don't think you get them. And you probably don't to their benefit. I think that fours want to get them. want to share themselves with you in a way they are so deep and vulnerable and if you crave that and if you can sit in that it's amazing to be so wide open with people you love to have access to someone's heart of hearts is a beautiful thing and so if you can do that and you can take that for the beauty that it is being in a relationship with the four is incredible i think that you are also in a relationship with someone who is going to be the most creative person you will have ever met in your life fours are usually our artists our writers of music and our creators of deep works are usually fours. Why? Because they see the pain that we all feel, but we don't know how to express. And isn't that a thing about a song or the thing about a piece of art that you see and it just touches you in this deep feeling place? And you're just like, I didn't even know I felt that because a four wrote it and they felt it, but they could express it in this way that we could not. And that's why it's so touching to us. So fours are huge gifts to us. we would have the beauty in this world that we do have without a force so fives fives are our investigators and our observers these are our intellectuals these are our brainy brains of all of the numbers this is the most intellectual of all of the personalities and they are motivated to learn to understand to perceive things they want to know everything they can possibly know and they're afraid of being helpless or So what's it like to be a four? You're always trying to learn. You're trying to gain knowledge. You're trying to think. You're trying to measure. You're trying to figure everything out. You are learning constantly. Fives have a measured amount of energy for every single day. So fives are very measured in everything they do, especially their energy. So fives wake up every day and they have this much energy and they go into the world with this much energy and they are trying to get home before it's gone. costs five something social interactions cost five energy physical touch costs five energy so they don't engage in that a lot because it costs them a lot so they're not real social they're very introverted and they're not very touchy because again that costs them a lot in fact what we say about fives is that being in an intimate relationship costs fives the most of any number so if you're in a relationship with a five what's it feel like it feels like being with someone who is giving them you themselves every single day I know it's costing them that. And I think it's probably one of the most beautiful things to see. They're not wired for it. They're wired for solitude. They're wired for learn, be by myself. So when they choose relationship with you, they're really choosing sacrificial love. And it feels like a calm companionship. Being in a relationship with a five feels like an intellectual connection. It's the smartest person you've ever met. It's a curious person. They're asking you lots of questions and learning about you. But they lack ready emotion. It is not going to be a very emotional dynamic. it is not going to be a lot of tell me what you feel they're going to tell you what they think and they're very protective of their time and space so they're very guarded with their time and their space sixes mr jones's number we're here now with our sixes and sixes are known as loyalists they have three names loyalists skeptics and guardians and guardian is one i just heard and i absolutely love it so i'm thrilled that i've got to get to add that to my nicknames for sixes because skeptic was always a little bit they are They are going to be a little bit like, hmm, I'm not sure I buy that. And they are loyal to a fault. Six is going to go down with the ship with you for sure. They are your ride or die. But they are at the heart guardians of themselves and the people they love. And so sixes are motivated to be safe and secure and supported. And they are afraid of being without that. So being exposed and being dangerous and being in danger and being unsecure. like being security oriented. Whatever that means for you. Every six is a little different. The things that make me feel safe are going to make another six feel different. Not quite as safe. And everybody's going to have their own way. But they are really looking for safety. And because of that, they can foresee problems before everybody else. A six sees a problem coming a mile away. And has a solution for it. So I see the problem and I know what to do about it. Because they are excellent troubleshooters. The best troubleshooters in the world are sixes. loyalty, different. I always say sixes are worried about the future. They are great in the present. So a six in an emergency is who I want. They've got it done. In the present, they've got it. But sometimes when they're thinking about the future, they can spin a lot of anxiety. And that anxiety, they're going to pacify with plans. Sixes are great planners. They're going to be like, oh, well, if this happens, we'll do this. And if that happens, we'll do this. So they don't always look anxious. And we'll talk about this on our next episode when we deep dive into sixes. Some sixes look super worried. and some sixes look very confident. So again, we can't judge behavior. But underneath, there is this level of what if that sixes run with. So when you're in relationship with a six, you're kind of dealing with that all the time. You're getting a lot of questions. You're getting a lot of, well, have you thought about this? And that can feel a little jarring. But they're doing it because they want to make sure you're safe. I think also that sixes can be a little reactive. or defiant if you question them. So they're going to question you about all the things. But if you go to them and start questioning or poking holes in their plan, they can get a little bit riled up about it. Because again, sort of like ones, if they haven't thought about that, they've failed. So if you're thinking about it and bringing it to them, oh no, that's a hole they've missed. And if they missed that hole, did they miss another hole? And did they miss another hole? Okay, we've got three more numbers to wrap up. Sevens. Sevens are our enthusiasm. And that is exactly what they are. Sevens are the easiest number to describe because their motivation is to be happy. Done. Checkbox. That's all they want. To be happy and have fun. They're afraid of being trapped in pain. Stuck somewhere where they're not happy. And so what it feels like to be a seven is to live for what's next. To live for what's fun. To live for what's exciting. To live for what's happening. Sevens are spontaneous. They are the people that call you in the middle of the night and go, let's go here or they call you on a tuesday and say let's fly across the country they are spontaneous and they are adventurous and sevens love to savor so say it sevens love two things to savor what i'm doing now and to anticipate what's ahead sevens have to have something in the future to anticipate if you can't be happy if you don't have a vacation on the calendar you're a seven if you can't be happy if you don't know what cool restaurant you're going to the next time you go to that place you're a seven you're anticipating you're dreaming and dreaming over that thing that's coming. Sevens don't feel fear the way other people feel fear. Because when sevens feel fear or sadness, they quickly reframe it into positives. So we say sevens live on one half of the emotional spectrum, the happy half. Anytime they travel over to the hard half, they come back. So when something bad happens to a seven, just like that, it's well, but here's the positive. That's what they do. And it's a gift, but it's a curse. Because at some point, bad things are going to happen that they can't spin. And when that happens, it can be very hard for sevens. So sevens are our number that are the most prone to addiction. Why? Because when I come to something that is hard and I cannot reframe it into positive, I can't feel it because I don't have any tools to feel it. Because sevens aren't in touch with those emotions and they don't use them. So I've got to numb it. And nothing numbs. emotions They're always doing that thing. And they're always kind of trying to reframe your heart. So you're dealing with a death or a loss or a grief, and they are trying to get you to turn that frown upside down. And that doesn't feel good to people. And sevens aren't doing it because they don't love you. They're doing it because they love you. Because why in the world would you want to do that thing where you're trapped in pain? They're trying to save you from their biggest fear. me, when I want to feel grief, or I want to feel this thing. So sevens don't really do well bearing witness to your pain. And that can be really hard in long-term relationships. It's also exhausting to be married to a seven. If you are not a person that wants to take 25 vacations a year, or go, or go bowling at midnight on a Wednesday, sometimes being with a seven is really hard. Because again, they're trying to get you into that space and have you do the things that they want to do all of the time. But sevens are funny, and they are lively, and they are joyful. Okay, Eights. Eights are our challengers and our bosses. And Eights are motivated to protect themselves and others. So again, not to keep you safe, to protect you. They're going to be big and strong and protect themselves. And their fear is to be weak or to be controlled by others. So what's it feel like to be an 8? Well, I will tell you that 8s have the most energy of any personality. feels like a person who can't sit still and is constantly having to do things but eights only do things they're passionate about so eights dive deep into things and it becomes their personality so i'm sure you guys know someone who's gotten into pickleball because pickleball is the thing that everybody is getting into all the time eights that are into pickleball went and played pickleball and decided pickleball was now their life and they're in leagues and they're in championships and they're wearing t-shirts and they've got bumper stickers on their car and their life is is now pickable. That's an eight. Because eights feel passion. And that's the emotion they resonate with. They are passionate people. They are big energy people. And they dive way deep and they get way into it. And they want you to do that too. They want their people and their relationships with them to have just as much energy and just as much passion as they do. Now, one of the things about eights that's so beautiful is they take that bravery and that passion and they put it on causes that they think are important. So eights are going to be the people that see the underdog and defend them, that protect them, that take care of them. That's an amazing thing. They're brave. Aids always tell the truth. They do not have a filter for you not liking what they hear. So Aids are brutally honest and they don't understand why everyone is in that way. Aids are going to tell you exactly what they think and they don't understand why people don't want to hear it because that's what they would want to hear. 100% of the truth. Don't lie to an 8. Don't try to sugarcoat things for an 8. They hate that. So they're not going to lie to you. And they're not going to sugarcoat things to you. So being in a relationship with an 8 feels like a lot of harsh truth. It is harsh to hear an 8 tell you what they think. And they don't understand why you don't like it. Because it's just true. Now 8s are ruled by right. They're good. Remember we talked about 1s. They are ruled by correctness. That's not what this is. this is right. Right is this idea of right. Correctness is I can find it in a book. This is gut. So eights are driven by their gut and they are always kind of saying, well, this is the right thing to do and the right way to be. And so again, that can feel kind of yucky to be in relationship with. One thing I have to say about eights that's so important. Male eights are seen as our leaders. They come in, they have courage, they speak the truth, they're telling us what's what, they're passionate, and we follow them to the end of the world. And that's just the truth. My best friend in the whole world is a female ape. And she has been labeled a bitch her whole life. And she does exactly the same thing. She comes into a room. She tells people hard truths. She's passionate about everything she cares about. She speaks up for things that are unfair and unjust. And people don't like her for it. And it's just true. And so it is one of the most unfair things about personality and one of the hardest a lot of teachers say to be on the enneagram as a female eight because you are constantly doing what you think is right and you are almost always being shamed for it in our society at least that is not still the best thing in the world have a strong willful mouthy smart woman come on the scene and eight struggle with vulnerability for that reason it's hard for them to be vulnerable because again i don't want to see you be seen as weak so being in a relationship with an eight it's going to be hard to have some vulnerability Remember, everybody's hung in this long. We're at nines. Nines are our peacemakers or mediators. So nines are the people who are motivated to feel peace and harmony. That is their only motivation. So what they are afraid of is conflict and disconnection. Simple. I want peace and harmony. I don't want conflict and disconnection. And when I say nines don't want conflict, they will do anything to avoid conflict. Anything. So a nine is going to feel like someone who wants everyone to get and that nothing is really that important too. And here's why. If I'm in a room and everybody wants to go somewhere and I want everybody to do it along, I'm just going to go, that sounds good to me and we're going to go do that. Because if I speak up and say I don't like it, what's going to happen? We're going to have conflict and I don't want conflict. So nines learn from an early age not to speak up and to be easygoing and get along with everyone and nothing really matter that much and be able to go anywhere and be happy. They are mergers. Now, lots of numbers, twos, completes. The difference is when a two does something that you want and they don't want, they don't forget they didn't want to do it. They're there, but they're a little bit irritated about it. Nines go where you want, and by the time they got there, they thought it was their idea. Their brain makes it work for them because they have to, because they can't have inner conflict any more than external conflict. So when I think about that, too, she's sitting there. that's in our conflict a nine can't stomach that either so i have to want it so i have to be able to wire my brain to not only go along with you but then when i get there to want it as i said i'm a nine on the enneagram there's no food i won't eat why because i don't have preferences about stuff like that i'll eat anything you want to go to indian let's go to indian asian asian turkish turkish vietnamese vietnamese i don't care read alligator alligator sounds good bring it up i will eat anything and it's because I will go anywhere. Nothing is that important to me on that kind of level. I'll wear whatever. I'll vacation anywhere. It doesn't really matter that much to nines. So they have this ability to just go along. Now, it is a beautiful thing to be a nine because what you can do is see everyone's perspective also. So not only can I go along with you, but I can understand why you want to do that. I can see everyone's perspective. And I'll tell you, this is a gift in coaching. of me, I can really understand and see where they're coming from and where their partner's coming from. And I'm not faking it. I see it. I feel it. I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense, too. Everybody thinks I agree with them because I do. And that feels really good to people. So that's why nines are natural mediators. A nine in the business world is what you want to make peace. If we took a bunch of nines and we got them on a plane and we flew them to the Middle East, Middle East peace would be achieved in 10 minutes because nines could hear everyone's point. and come up with a solution. Everyone would like them. They are beauties at that. So they're great. Now, where they're not great is that they don't like making decisions. So to be in a relationship with a nine means you're going to be with someone who doesn't care. That's great until it's Friday night and we're trying to die for dinner and you ask what they want and they don't care because they don't care. So it's hard. They don't care about where you go on vacation. They don't care about where we spend Christmas. They don't care. It's just whatever. And that's frustrating for people because I want to know you and I want to know what you like. And it's hard for nines to access that. They also procrastinate and they are very stubborn. So a nine is easygoing until they get to a place where they don't really know or there's too many options. They can dig their heels in and they can kind of be like a rock that won't move. We talk about inertia with nines. If they're going, they don't stop. But if they've stopped, it's hard sometimes to get them going because they're stubborn. And nines don't speak up about things until it's like mock 100. So again, I'm going to quiet my voice about my preference because that's not really something that serves me. But at some point, I'm going to have said no to my own preference so many times that that has built up in the back of my head. And then all of a sudden I'm a raging inferno and these people have no idea why. So nines are prone to this all of the sudden freak out moment where all of the stuff they've been ignoring. and merging with comes back to bite them. And that can be really hard in a relationship as well. And really hard for the nines. So we have gotten through all our personalities. Look, we did the marathon in record time. We did a great job. Yeah, you know, I'm trying to, as I'm listening to you, and I'm thinking, boy, it sure is nice to know, wouldn't it be nice to know whoever I interact with, whether it's in a business world, or in a relationship, or the lifestyle to know what number they are so that I know that I better understand them but then I'm thinking there are all these things that you know we're different generations we're different genders we come from different cultures we have different influences in life we're wired differently we geographically we live in different regions we we have love languages we have sexual blueprints we have family dynamics and I'm the firstborn or I'm the middle child and all of these things, I'm just wondering, is the Enneagram another one of those things? Or is the Enneagram more honed in on, regardless of all of that, at the atomic level of who I am? I guess what I'm asking is, is that a number I can depend on and not have to worry about being influenced by all those things? that is the Enneagram cuts through all of those other things okay so if I'm a nine and I'm a firstborn nine which I am and I'm an extroverted nine which I am and I'm a highly intellectual nine which I am it cuts through all of those things because at the core of my being I'm definitely desperately afraid of conflict and I'm always using being firstborn to be a peacemaker I'm always using being extroverted to get people along with mediation It transmits through all of those things. It cuts through, and it shows up as that personality trait in each of those buckets. So yeah, I'm a firstborn, and that's a single bucket, and it makes me act a certain way, but I'm a nine as I'm a firstborn. And I'm an extrovert, but I'm a nine extrovert. And that's different than a three extrovert, and that's way different than an eight extrovert. So to me, it is, if I was going to learn anything about someone, I'd pick this. Why? after this, everything else is kind of window dressing. It's just another layer of something about you. But man, if I know what you're afraid of and I know what you're running towards, that's what you see. Think about what we see as humans. We see what I want and what I don't want. And everybody is wired strongly in one of those camps more than the other, trying to go towards what they want. Sevens are so wired towards motivation. I want. Sixes are so wired away from bad and danger and problems. And that's what I want to get behind you and look. I want to see what you see. I can't change what anybody sees. No one can change what they see. But I can change knowing how you see it and I can understand how you see it. And that's what I can understand about myself and that's what I can understand about you. So the other thing that came to mind was, you know, I'm listening to you say six and I'm nodding my head a little bit. But then when I hear you get to nine, I'm like, well, you know what? That resonates too. So what does it mean when you have maybe some maybe I'm the the average of the two know what you are is and this let's talk about a couple of things that would be the next thing I would study if I was interested in this for any grand people so if you really are fired up about this and you want to learn more great go learn about your number go learn a little bit about the numbers of people you love and then learn about two things one is your wings so wings in any grand language are the number on either side of your number and they've influenced your you only are sort of influenced by feet So you will have a secondary fear that is your wing. So I'm a nine and for my whole life I had a really strong one wing. Which means I was also afraid of being in trouble. I was also afraid of being bad. That was a secondary fear to my fear of conflict. So I'm afraid of being in conflict and I'm afraid of being seen as bad. So your wings can only be the numbers that are your neighbor numbers. I can't be a nine with a six wing. That doesn't work. I'm only a nine with an eight wing or a one wing. And what we learn in Enneagram is that when your first half of your your life you have one wing you're like a weird chicken with one wing and as you go into the second half of your life you start to access the other wing so you start to take on some of the qualities and start to see some of the things about that other side so for me as a nine i've started to move into my eight which means i'm really concerned about not being controlled i i want to make sure that i'm speaking up for myself and doing some things which is really different than nine really different than one but i can feel that energy happening the older i get The wings is something I would have people look into because that secondary fear is going to really color your color a little bit different. The other thing is what you just mentioned, which is your stress and security numbers. So if anyone's looking at a diagram of an enneagram, they're going to see all of these crazy arrows that are pointing to all the other numbers. Why? Because numbers are connected. And for you as a six, you have two numbers that are one is your stress number. So it's a number that you travel to when you are in stress and you borrow the characteristics. to help you or hurt you. Just depends on how healthy you are. So you might travel and you borrow some energy from, you're going to go to, and your stress and security numbers are three and nine. Six, three, and nine are the only numbers that share all their lines. So a six and a three and a nine only travel between six and three and nine. So as you listen to those, you're going to resonate with six and three and nine, because that's your traveling. When you're in stress, you're borrowing from those numbers. And when you're in security, you're borrowing from those numbers. So you're going to feel a ton of resonance because you've been at both of those places and stay the night at their house many times. So that's another thing about the Enneagram that people want to research is you want to learn your stress number and your security number. And you want to know what happens when you go there and what do you do when you go there and what do you borrow? You do not become that number. You borrow characteristics. You borrow things from it. And sometimes it's to help you. And sometimes it just makes it worse. It just depends on when you go there, what you're doing. So the last question I have before we get to the fun part, what does this have to do with non-monogamy? Like, after listening to you, Kel, and now I'm trying to learn what Mrs. Jones' number in and how that affects our relationship and vice versa, I'm kind of envying the DTF people because you don't have to worry about any of that. Let's just have sex. I don't have to know you yes yeah yeah so how does this influence who we connect with in the lifestyle or does it so here's what I'm gonna say it doesn't go and meet anybody you're connected to and I think that people that you become really good friends with if you get interested in as you want to know them yeah you're going to be a better friend and a better play partner and a better connection with people if you kind of know their triggers and you kind of know their fears and you know what they're dealing with and it's just common language so you know it's really would be to me in that situation just a fun thing to know about people now if you're in a deep relationship people that are interested in some sort of deeper emotional connection yeah i'd know it i'd know your paramours and your poly partners or your swally partners oh yeah i'd know it made them scared and i'd know it made them motivated for sure just like i would know it about my own partner but for other people it's it's a it's a great fun thing to know now what let's let's do a fun little thing that's gonna be real quick which is just how would your number show up in non-monogamy so that'll be you know pretty easy and also will make people probably laugh. So let's start with ones again. Well, what do we say about ones? They think there's a correct way to do everything. So my gosh, do they think there's a correct way to do E&M? Like there's one right way and they know what it is and probably they read about or learned about or saw, you know, they read the ethical slut and the ethical slut is their Bible now. That's the way we're going to do it. So the whole boundary thing was my idea. Absolutely. Of course it was because that's the right way to do it. Of course. Of course. You were going to Is that the way, you know, the Mrs. Jones way, which was the correct way to do it? And nobody wants to deviate from that. And nobody's going to, you're not going to be talked out of it. Because again, it's what makes you feel safe. No, I printed it out. I laminated it. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I would expect no less. It's a tattoo on my chest. Yes, I see it right there. All the rules and boundaries. It's printed. It's also hanging behind you in your house. I see it. It's right there when you come in. Yeah, of course. Of course, because that's what makes you feel safe. And when people try to say, there's another way to do it or you're not doing it the way that they think you're going to get ruffled about it of course okay twos so twos are going to over please like that's what they do they're pleasers so they're going to come into the space and they're going to be like hey i want to make everybody happy and they're going to read what everybody wants they're going to do what everybody wants and that's fine that's great actually the for twos the problem is that they it's that possessive part so twos are really caught up in their ability to please you and guess what happens when they start seeing somebody else please you, they get super threatened. So if a two sees someone else giving to their partner in a way that either they do, that feels threatening, or a way they can't do, that feels threatening, that is bumping up against their need to be needed. Because twos think you need me because I'm so good to you in this way, or I'm so great to you in this way, or I give to you in this way. And if somebody else can do that, uh-oh, I might be unwanted. So it's really, really hard for twos when they start to have to with that idea that someone else could give to their partner. Threes. Threes, they absolutely show up with image. For threes, this is going to be really image driven. And again, I don't know what that image is going to look like, but for most threes, it's going to be about going to the right parties, being in the right groups. Oh my gosh, I can't imagine being a three and doing your online profile. The image you've got to put out and the way it's got to look and the way we're portraying ourselves to others is always at the front of their mind. They are overly focused. Yep. Absolutely. They are overly focused on appearance. What we're wearing to theme parties. I can't imagine. We throw stuff together at the last minute. These people would have years, books, portfolios of what we're going to wear for theme nights. So they have to do it the way they have to do it. And that's the way they do things. So for fours, fours are going to run into that trap of feeling really deep feelings and emotions and then wanting to tell people about it really early. So our fours are in this space and they're feeling all of these feelings. But fours can't feel feelings. and not share them with others. So suddenly they are really getting deep and really getting vulnerable with people that they just met at the bar. And that can scare people. So you're in a play party and you're hanging out with this person. All of a sudden they're telling you about the worst moment of their lives and how this is this. And you are like, where is my jacket? And I have got to get out of here. So they can be too deep and too entrenched and too. And again, they fall hard and they fall fast. So going on this with journey with a four, I don't know how to boundary a four's emotions. And a four doesn't know how to boundary their emotions either. So I would know that. And I would planning for that if I was going to this space with a four. Fives. Five's easy. They're going to overthink. And they're going to overresearch. And fives like to learn about, don't like to do. So if you're with a five and you've been talking about non-monogamy, let me tell you, they've listened to every podcast. They've read every book twice. They've listened to every podcast a second time. And they're still not quite ready to do it. Because they like the prep and they like the learning and they're not so concerned. about the doing. So that can be really frustrating if you're with a five. Sixes. So sixes of course are going to plan for an individuality and they're going to have a plan and they're going to work the plan and they're going to share the plan with others. But actually the thing about sixes I think the non-monogamy is they're so loyal they can stay in something that's not serving them for too long. So sixes can stick and try to make it work way longer than they need to and to their detriment. Because again they're so they don't want to let anyone down and they don't want to walk away and they don't want to hurt anyone and they figure that they can plan it and figure it out if they just stick at it and that can be really hard for success sevens sevens ever do it they they burn themselves and their people out sevens are like how many times can we go to desire in a year 18 sounds like a good number to me and they do and they do they're the people that go and like oh premier members well we're going to get good use of this we're going to be here in two weeks and then two weeks and they're also to go to a party in between and they're also going to have two online profiles and they're going to go to dinner on a Thursday night and a Friday night they burn people out and they burn themselves out and they run through the whole thing in six months that would take people six years because again they're just like this feels good let's do it more and it can really exhaust their partners and themselves eights eights become overly passionate and can kind of take over everything so again we talked about eights being the challenger but they're also the boss and so when eights get passionate about something. Again, when we talk about pickleball, it becomes their identity. And it's different than sevens because sevens are doing it and it's fun and eights are doing it and it's not so fun. It's like an obsession. It's like we got to do this all the time. We got to be in this all the time and there's a right way to do it and they feel so much passionate about it and so it can make it not so much fun. And they're telling you all the truth about it and then that's upsetting you and they're telling everybody else the truth about it and that's upsetting them too. And so last, how do nines show up and sometimes struggle in monogamy? they don't speak up. And so again, think about one of the hardest dynamics in the lifestyle, which is that four person in a room. And we're all talking about what we'd want to do. We're all talking about our boundaries. And you've got yes. And then you got your nine sitting there. And man, he doesn't know. He has nowhere to go there. Because he doesn't want to be the lone voice. And he doesn't want to cause there to be any conflict. So he's going to agree. And then later, he's going to have some payment to make. And nines do that all the time. They agree to things to be in the group and to not have any conflict and they pay for it later. And that can be a place where I see couples all the time where now you've got a really angry and really resentful man who didn't want to do any of this anyway but never spoke up. So common, common thing that I see with any grand people. So it reminds me of a co-worker I used to have who said something to me that really stuck with me and that is, a weakness is a strength that's carried too far. And that's something that's always stuck with me. with me. So if you know your tendencies, if you know your number, and you know what motivates you and what you're afraid of, then it might be a little bit easier to know when you're getting to that point where it's becoming a weakness and is no longer a strength. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we'll talk more about that when we do you guys' coaching about how do I use the Enneagram to help my partner and for them to help me with that strength becoming a weakness or weakness becoming a strength. And that's I think that's one of the beautiful things about Enneagram. Well, thank you very much, Kel. This has been, I'm on brain overload right now. I know, my wheels are spinning. Trying to. It's so funny, like every personality type, as you were going over them, all of these people in my life were coming to mind. You know, it just, it's really eye-opening. Yeah, I think one of the most loving things you can do is learn the people you love, Enneagram type. Because, again, it's also this thing where I'm not upset with you. I'm upset with your personality. And so, again, if I can depersonalize a lot of things, if you're not being an overly righteous perfectionist, but instead you are being a one, and what that means is that you are always trying to correct and perfect, and you are doing that to keep you safe and me safe, well, that's a totally different vibe. You know, I'm not so worked up against it. It's not against me. You're actually doing it for you and for me. It just doesn't feel like that to me. And so if we could depersonalize, I often tell couples, use Enneagram language. Hey, this thing you're doing feels like it's your personality, but it doesn't feel good to me. What can we do about it? And that's a lot different than you're being a jerk and we're going to have a problem about it if we don't do something. So again, personality is just the mask you wear with others. And if that mask is making people uncomfortable, I don't want to do that. They don't want to do that. But we need a way to talk about it that doesn't feel so in my face and makes you feel so defensive and the enneagram's a good way to do that all right well before we let you go um what would you how can people find you and is there anything that you all have going on at expansive connection that you want to share sure absolutely people can always find us at our website which is um expansive connection.com slash uh enm and um let's see what we have going on i really think the thing i want to highlight is retreats we are in retreat season and retreats have become something that are very passionate um we are very passionate about. So if they go there or they email us, we can give them lots of information about retreats. And we have our couples retreats in September of 2025 and in February of 2026 that we are filling up. And we're really excited about inviting some couples to come and spend that time with Catherine and I and work on their relationships. And we also have two ladies retreats that Catherine will be a part of, one in October and one in November. And they're both happening in the Tennessee mountains. And one is about pleasure, the one in October, and one is about learning about menopause. And that's going to happen in So if I could share one thing, it would be, yeah, if you haven't been on one of our retreats or been on a retreat with us, it's a great way to see us in person and really do a deep dive on a topic or your relationship. All right. Well, thank you very much. And I wish I could say I'm looking forward to the next time that we talk about this. It's going to be great. It's going to be great. All right. Well, thanks a lot, Kel, for joining us and we'll see you again very soon. Thank you so much. We would love for you to join our We Gotta Think community. You can find us information on our website at wegotathing.com w-e-g-o-t-t-a-t-h-i-n-g dot com or you can contact us either through our website or you can send me an email mr jones m-r-j-o-n-e-s at wegotathing.com or me at mrs jones at wegotathing.com so thanks for listening we are mr and mrs jones and we got a thing what's your thing...