Episode 126: The Many Flavors of Jealousy

Transcript

This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey you teenagers out there, if you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a longtime married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us?

hello everyone i'm mr jones and i'm mrs jones and i'm katherine of expansive connection coaching and we want to welcome you to episode 126 of the we got a thing podcast so keeping up with the coaches segment one in our collaborative podcast series with with Expansive Connection, Catherine, you and your staff. We've been around the block one time with each person, and we're happy to have you back. It's been a lot of fun, very enjoyable, and we're learning a lot too as we go through this, as we record these episodes with you. But before we get into today's topic.

why don't you introduce yourself briefly and then tell us what you've been into both professionally and personally. Well, thank you for having me again. My name is Catherine again, and I'm the founder of Expansive Connection Coaching, although I feel like you two get to be founders as well, because it definitely would not have happened without your encouragement after I reached out from your very first episode where you discussed jealousy. So lovely that we're coming back to that another time.

Since I started the company, there's been such a demand for coaches and therapists that are walking our own journey with ethical non-monogamy that I have expanded my practice. There are four of us now, and we all have a little different area of specialty or heart spots, we like to call them, where we really love to dive in. So I am excited to be doing this podcast. That's part of one of the things I've been doing professionally is growing our educational outreach with our ability to be with you all once a month. So I'm very thankful for that opportunity. I've also been digging into retreats.

And so this, instead of just doing one-on-one coaching through Zoom, which is the majority of what I do now, it's a nice throwback for me because I spent 15 years in practice in person before I moved to this niche that needed the Zoom to connect with people all over the country and even in other countries. And so the retreat space is nice because we're in person. Earlier this year, I co-led a women's retreat of the lifestyle with Kate of Monogamous Marriage. And it was really lovely to do some good therapeutic work.

We did coaching we did writing writing, we did yoga and we were able to dig into things deeply in person. And I just, I loved that, that opportunity to, to be in person with people. So Kelsey and I have decided to offer a couples retreat and we are, it's actually was only out for two weeks before we filled it. So we have 10 couples coming together to do some exploration. And we've vetted it. And we actually waited to decide what our teaching points were going to be until we met all the couples, which we have now done. And it's so interesting. All 10 couples are in a very similar stage of life.

And every single couple mentioned the issue of how to reconcile differences, how to honor who they are as individuals, and what happens when they want different things. So it's really neat how you put something out in the universe, and then these people come to us, and they all are looking for similar things. So I'm really enjoying that, and then hoping to collaborate to offer a Mastering Menopause Ladies Retreat coming up from all sorts of different physical and emotional and relational and spiritual angles. Sounds like you got a full plate. Yes, it's certainly fun.

It's a nice way to get, you know, I get to go and be in these settings and these retreats. And also it helps me make connections that lead to client work as well, because we've had a chance to get to know each other and do some work. And then we can really hit the ground running when we're doing one-on-one work. So what's going on with you personally? I know holidays are coming up. You must be busy with quite a few things going on there. Oh, always. And my birthday is in December and my daughter's birthday is the end of November.

So it is a whirlwind from, from the end of November through the first of the year. And I'm also going to be a guest speaker at the event at Hedo in the first week of January. So it's a between, I'm on one hand, I'm wrapping Christmas presents and then I'm going to consignment stores looking for sexy dresses that the college students have sold for beer money. So it's a really odd month. But as always, for me, my personal and my professional work is so intertwined because I don't just like to get online and help other people with their work, if you will, in quotes.

I really love to do that work myself. And so the stuff I've been working on a lot for my own life always trickles out into my professional life or people will come to me with an issue and we'll start working through it and it'll remind me that I need to do some work on that issue. So I've been doing a lot more with inner parts work, which you all know, I love. We've talked about that way back on the drama episode, I think. So I've continued to do that, but also a lot on nervous system regulation. I found, I've been finding that I love to teach tools and skills and they, they're great.

And they make a lot of sense when we're sitting here, you know, very adult and our prefrontal cortex is clicked in and we're not flipped. But all those tools are crap when we are dysregulated. When we flip our lids, we just are not able to use those tools very effectively. And I've noticed that in myself. That's actually one of the ways I'm learning to master menopause is, man, I am more emotional than I used to be. And I've always been a pretty emotional person. So learning how to regulate my nervous system so that I can use the tools that I need to, to succeed in my relationships.

I've also been playing some in the, I would say, energetic BDSM world of masculine and feminine in energy and polarity. I love the term erotic leadership and surrender. I don't really like pain, so I've always thought I couldn't really do BDSM. But it's very fun to explore energetically to say, will you please just take over tonight and let me surrender? Or, wow, it looks like you had a really rough day. Why don't you sit there and just let me take care of everything? That's been adding some fun spice and energy and edginess to my bedroom.

Yeah, that's one thing that a lot of people misunderstand, including us, and that is every time we hear the term BDSM, you're thinking of hitting somebody, you know, or being hit. But the power exchange dynamic part of it is really what it's all about. It's fascinating. Speaking of lid flipping, when we get into segment two, you're going to teach us how to not flip our lids, right? Well, I don't know so much about that.

We're going to dive into jealousy and maybe some of the why's so that you can understand a little bit better why your lid is getting flipped and maybe do some do some work on it so it'll stay put a little more often all right well we'll be back in just a minute All right. Well, welcome back to segment two. We are discussing the many flavors of jealousy today with Catherine from Expansive Connection. Yes. And we have had three different episodes in the past that touched on jealousy. Two of them, you were, Catherine, you were with us for episode, excuse me, you were episode 41.

We talked about it in episode three way back a long time ago. And then we also talked about it in episode 94 when we talked about envy and jealousy at the same time and how sometimes we get those things confused. So we're going to revisit this. You know, when we talked about, oh, well, we've talked about jealousy a couple of times. And I think the comment you made, Catherine, is, well, this is an oldie but goodie. It's so true. I will say that even though I was not recording with you at episode three, I was right there with you when I was listening.

And again, that is what made me reach out to you and say, thank you so much for being vulnerable and sharing that because I was right in the storm of my first big jealousy episode, I would call it. And it was so comforting to me to hear what you all went through and how willing you were to talk about it. And it really, it was absolutely a catalyst for me to dig in and say, oh, okay, this is part of what I've gotten into. What do I need to learn? What can I understand?

And then talking to you, and then here we go, and I launched a business really based, I would say, on that jealousy journey that you all helped me through. Yeah, and you use, I like the way that you use the term flavors. So maybe you can talk about why you chose to use that word as we start to talk about jealousy again. Well, I guess for one thing, I think when we talk about flavors, it has a positive connotation. When we go to Baskin Robbins, it's so exciting to see all the different flavors of ice cream or all the different flavors of donuts at the donut shop.

So I think right away, it puts a little bit more of a positive connotation and I hope a bit of a normalizing. I've been working with ethically non-monogamous couples very intensely for the last six, seven years. And people are still so hesitant to quote, admit that they're jealous. It's this hush hush, or they'll, they'll come to me and the partners have just gone round and round. And finally, I'm like, you guys realize that we're just talking about jealousy, right? Oh, no, we're not jealous.

And I'm just like, the time and effort that has been wasted on tiptoeing around or trying to defend yourself that you aren't jealous or deflect blame that it's jealous. It's just, to me, it's such a waste of time so let's let's normalize it so I was like let's make this exhausted so I made this exhaustive list of the different quote flavors of jealousy to really emphasize how varied the emotions are the responses that come up all that kind of fall under this jealousy umbrella because jealousy is not just one single It shows up in lots of different ways. It can be triggered by different things.

It can come from different things within us. So my goal in calling it flavors and making this exhaustive list that we're going to share with listeners is so that we can stop wasting our energy denying that jealousy exists or that we're feeling it. Stop shaming ourselves or our partners for it and just realize that it's natural and normal and let's start putting our work toward now what right and i like when we were talking about this earlier there's a difference in uh handling jealousy in monogamous relationships versus non-monogamous relationships. Yes. Yes, for sure.

And I think jealousy is meant to get our attention. It sets off our alarm system. There's a wonderful podcast called Making Polyamory Work, and Libby Seinbeck does this great episode about saying thank you to your jealousy, which I think many of us would be like, oh, God, come on. But her point is, it's meant to get our attention. Now, the difference in monogamy and non-monogamy without alarm system is that in a monogamous relationship and our monogamous culture, if there is jealousy, then we remember some iconic rom-com scene, we feel really justified in being jealous.

We tell our partners to quit it, and that's it. So I think in monogamous culture, jealousy is a stop sign. Stop doing that. Stop making me feel uncomfortable. We need to rearrange how we interact with other people. We need to have the same Facebook page instead of separate ones, so then we can't get jealous. But in ethical non-monogamy, jealousy is often just the beginning of a journey. It usually doesn't take long for it to creep into the relationship, again, because it's very normal and natural.

But in ethical non-monogamy and the lifestyle, we have to see jealousy as a yield sign, telling you to slow down and proceed with caution with caution but yes you do need to proceed because it offers so it puts you on this journey that offers so much opportunity for self-exploration and growth in your relationship so of course a lot of afol's another fucking opportunity to learn which we always are talking about Yeah, and it's ironic that in the monogamous world, jealousy is a fear that oftentimes does not play itself out because neither party is, for the most part, let's just say, that it can be innocent.

It can be somebody feeling something or feeling threatened, but neither one of you are really going to act upon that. But then in non-monogamy, you both have agreed that you are going to share each other. And so it's counterculture to what we have grown up and been programmed to believe. And so we find ourselves in a situation where I feel like I want to do something. And then I run into that yield sign that you talked about.

And I wonder, that makes me wonder if, and this is a more rhetorical question, but I wonder if folks who are in monogamous relationships ever deal with jealousy, because that's the expectation that I'm jealous of this, you're going to stop that behavior, and then we don't have to address this again. Bingo. Which comes back to one of the things that we hear over and over about why people love the lifestyle or love ethical non-monogamy, because they've never felt closer to their partner.

Well, when we just sweep things under the carpet, all of a sudden the carpet gets so big and lumpy that we can't even find our partner across the room. But in ethical non-monogamy, we can't sweep things under the carpet. We have to talk about the things. We have to address it. And so as we're going to continue to talk about here today, jealousy is just the alarm bell. Then we get down to work. But again, if the idea is we don't want to feel uncomfortable things, so let's fix the environment around us so that we don't have to feel this icky feeling. Okay, that's great.

And certainly there's some environmental factors, but they're missing the opportunity to look at what's going on within themselves and within their relationship that's leaving them susceptible to this feeling. Okay, well, let's get into your flavors. Take it away. Okay. Well, so I'd like to say once jealousy, once the alarm bell has gone off, and you say, thank you so much, jealousy, for getting my attention, then we need to do a few things. The first thing is slow down.

When there are alarm bells, we want to move fast, we want to be furious, we want to like solve it all in one night, stay up till four in the morning. And we're just sure that that'll do it. Nope. Don't talk it out. Go to bed mad, sleep and wake up and you can fight about it all day, but don't do it in the middle of the night when you're exhausted, your brain is not going to do you any favors. So first slow down. And then you've got to remind yourself to not feel shame about feeling jealous. Just don't waste your energy on that. Put your energy into these next steps.

Wasting that energy on shame is just going to slow down the process and it's going to make you feel bad about yourself. And we don't tend to do our best work when we're feeling bad about ourselves. So just let go of the shame. It's so normal. You need to acknowledge that there is jealousy and then you got to slow down again. Oh, okay. That was a lot. I'm jealous. I'm not going to beat myself up about it. Yeah, honey, it's okay that you feel jealous. Let's not beat you up about it. But, and let's, let's just acknowledge that there's jealousy here. Okay. There's another slowdown.

Then you want to get curious about which flavor, and I'm going to give you this exhausted list. We're, we're really like breadcrumbing them here. We're getting excited about this list, aren't we? We're going to look at which flavor it is. And here again, I want you to slow down. Don't just see the first flavor that sounds right and then throw the sheet away. We're going to give your listeners opportunity to have this sheet of this exhausted list. Really slow down as you read this list and see what resonates in your body.

Maybe even have your partner read it to you and see if hearing it resonates something different. Read it a few times and really get clear on maybe you circle 10 of them. Maybe it's like three, but these two are are really similar we just want to slow down that process so you're really in that curiosity mode about what flavor is is like hitting your buttons okay slow down again are you noticing the yield sign pattern here so once you kind of get an idea about flavor then we're going to consider what parts of this situation are an inside job versus This is an outside job.

So what I mean by this is… Learning iPad. flavor, then we're going to consider what parts of this situation are an inside job versus an outside job. So what I mean by this is, yeah, so inside job is, I've gotten jealous because this is triggering something old in me. So for instance, one of my, one of my flavors of jealousy is feeling left out. And so once I realized that, then I started doing some internal work about what does that mean? Well, I happen to be an only child whose parents were really kind of into each other unless they weren't together.

And then my mom and I were like super buds. And then as soon as my dad would come around, my mom couldn't be bothered with me. And so I was left out. And then they get to go in this room and close the door and come out giggling. And I didn't know what was going on in there. I was just lonely and sad waiting outside the door for them. So that was an inside job.

So when I saw my partner really engaging in something fun in a closed door and coming out giggling, you know what I'm talking about, these feelings came back up that were from 1989, 1986, not anything that was wrong with what was going on in the present moment. So that was my inside job. Now there are other times where I've gotten alarm bells that were more an outside job. Always look inward first, own your stuff.

But then it was like, okay, you know, yes I haven't I have a left out issue here but you know I kept trying to engage in conversation with the two of you and I felt like you were literally ignoring me you looked at me and kept talking and that happened three times so that doesn't feel good that's not what I want in this relational space and so in that sense the alarm bell was going off because it was an outside job, which was telling me my relationship needed some work. We needed to renegotiate our expectations and what this was going to look like.

Does that make more sense, inside job, outside job? Yeah. Yep, it sure does. Yep. Okay. And then once you figure out kind of which is which, you need to gather the tools for addressing the inside job versus the outside job. And I'd say for most, I mean, honestly, a lot of that is going to be education, listening to podcasts, getting a coach, seeing a therapist, doing relational activities together, whether that's coaching, whether it's taking a class together, read a book together and talk about things.

But if you know which parts are an inside job versus which parts are an outside job, it'll make it easier to know which tools, if it's more about you resolving something within yourself from your family of origin versus we need to work on some relationship communication or dynamics. All right. And I understand what you're saying, slow down a lot. So I'm picking up on this idea that that's an important thing in this conversation.

But the reality of this, though, Catherine, is when my lid gets flipped and the alarms are going off, and I know when you said earlier, go ahead and go to bed, you know, feeling this way. But the reality is you stare at the ceiling, you can't think of anything else. It consumes your whole mind. You start imagining things and then your mind just makes it worse because you've already thought two or three or four things are going to happen in the future because of this. And sometimes it's hard to just slow down.

And then on the other hand, if you're the partner who has done something to cause somebody to feel jealousy, then there's, what did I do? Well, we're just not going to do this again. Or there's a defensiveness that comes up. Well, I did that, but that was okay. Remember, we talked about this. And so even though we're talking about something pretty methodical, when the lid is flipped for one person, this is the reality of what we're feeling. And sometimes it just feels like, I need to get this out now.

So I know there's no magic bullet with that, but maybe it's more of just when you start to have that feeling, understanding what it is and what is not. Absolutely. And remembering that that immediacy that you're feeling, it's confusing because that immediacy is driving you to do something. But keep in mind that if your lid is flipped, and please go back to episode 41 if you want to have a better explanation of what we're talking about here, but once your lid is flipped, meaning your prefrontal cortex is offline, then now your amygdala is driving the train, your Amy G.

Dalla, and that is going to be a part of the, that's a part of the brain that doesn't understand linear time and isn't very good with specificity. And so So that part of the video is going to be a part of the, that's a part of the brain that doesn't understand linear time and isn't very good with specificity. And so that part of the brain is always going to say right now, run, fight or flight now. Don't think about it. It's because that it's, it's your emotional memory to keep you safe. And so if once you're flipped, it is hard to slow down. And that's actually why it's so imperative.

Because if you go rushing in with your Amy G. Dala driving the train, the decisions you're going to make and the damage you may do to your relationship or to yourself or your thought patterns, your lack of sleep, that's when we really get into trouble. That's when we're doing damage that we then really need to clean up. Getting jealous, having these things come up, that's pretty normal and natural. What we're trying to do here is mitigate damage that happens because of the feelings you get when you have this, right? So I agree. It's not just a magic bullet.

It isn't just easy like, oh, we'll do 10 deep breaths and you'll be fine no I get it believe me I've stared at that same ceiling I have been on the bathroom floor like how am I going to get through this I have been there and that's why I've been talking a lot about nervous system regulation earlier because before we get into any any discussion about the flavor of jealousy or what we're gonna which different relational patterns we're going to do, none of that's going to work if our lid is flipped. None of that's going to work if we're dysregulated.

And so that's again, where you may, if you think that you might be prone to jealousy, which most of us are, or if you know that this is an issue for you, that's often when people come to us, they want to start with these fancy communication plans. And I'm like, it's a waste of time until I really teach you how to regulate yourself when you're dysregulated. Right. And those of us who have been in the lifestyle or non-monogamous for a while, we've had a little bit of practice with understanding and wrestling with that feeling. So it gets a little bit more recognizable, I think, with experience.

I don't know that it necessarily makes it easier, but it is more recognizable. That's such a great way to put it. Because again, when I was saying that immediacy, you know, your Amy G. Dala, your amygdala wants to tell you that it is the first time and the most important time and you must act right now.

And then if we kind of keep a shred of lid on we're like oh wait i remember this and i remember how it feels like i absolutely have to hit send on that email right now or the world is going to end and the damage that that caused and you know what i bet if this email feels this good tonight it'll be even better tomorrow at the light of day so if we can recognize it then it gives it gives us a little bit of like, it's almost like we're talking to ourselves.

Like, yeah, or I also think about it like that little gecko lizard, you know, like my primal brain is like just going into these primal reactions. And I always think about like tapping my finger on the top of that little gecko's head, like, oh, little lizard, I know you want me to do this right now.

But let's just a minute and i want to do this first i want to you know write my feelings out i want to go see my therapist first i want to go for a run i want to do some deep breathing i want to hold my hand to my partner's heart and theirs to mine and look in our eyes and take 10 deep breaths before we have the conversation so you're finding these ways but i love the way you said that recognizing the feeling so you don't get swept up into the immediacy of it. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And unfortunately, the only way to recognize it is having had been through it before.

So a lot of people email us, Catherine, and some of us are research oriented and we just want to explore. We want to research. We want to learn. We want to know. We want to anticipate. We want to be armed to the teeth with information so that when we get into this, we don't have these issues. But then it never fails that no matter how much of that you do until you get in it and start acting upon it, you really don't know how you're going to respond as things progress. Awesome. And so that, again, if you've done all that research, good for you. It's not for naught.

You have done it and it is in there. The problem is it's in the part of your brain that has flipped to the back of the room. So once you get regulated and you get your brain back on, all that research will be there for you. All those great communication strategies will be there for you. But you do have to make sure that you're moving in a direction that's getting yourself regulated so that you can find all that great research you've done. Okay, let's get into these flavors. All right.

So before your listeners start sharpening their pencils and try to keep up with me, we are going to make this PDF available to anybody. We'll just have a link you can go to and get access to it. So I'm going to read it kind of quickly on purpose. And the reason for that, again, is to show you how vast, how broad this umbrella of jealousy is.

So in the reading of it quickly and how exhaustive it is, I'm hoping that people will feel normalized and realize if they were like judging someone else for feeling jealous, being like, oh, that makes so much more sense because I know this and this and this about them. Okay. So you can put your pencils down and just listen because it'll be available later. Okay. So we have betrayal. We have envy, which is sometimes referred to as sadness that someone has something that you don't. Humiliation, which is embarrassment at the hand of another in front of others. The fear of being left out.

The fear of being chosen over. Compare and despair. This is in capital letters with four exclamation points. Mine. Mine. As in difficulty sharing something of value. Comparison. Do they still like or love me the best? Body issues. Body image issues. Body or performance insecurities. Belief that someone would be better for your partner than you. Resource scarcity. And there are potential real ones like time and money. Those are scarce. But resource scarcity can also just be perceived, but not necessarily true, like that there is a scarcity of affection and attention and love.

And that is much less scarce than time and money it will ever be. The fear of displacement, the worry that somebody else gets the best parts, the light, the free of obligations part of your partner, and you get the leftovers that are laden with all the complications of a shared life. He, she, they never does that for me. They never say that to me, but they say that to her or him. The fear of abandonment. I want to make a note here that true abandonment can only happen to young children. Young children are the only ones that can truly be abandoned in the way that threatens their survival.

But that old fear that we have of being abandoned is deeply rooted in the oldest part of our brain where that little gecko gecko lives and doesn't always recognize that we will survive if a partner leaves us. In the moment, it can feel like death, like it would be for a little child if they were abandoned, even though we would be okay through the hurt. another one is he or she will see in um they will see in real life that there are people out there that might be less emotional or more easygoing or that they could get along better with.

The idea of seeing others get something, but you're not getting it yourself. There can be a preoccupation with fairness and equity. Another one, this is again in all caps, this is my turf and I was here first, meaning y'all can do whatever you want, but not on my turf. Another one could be a fear of sharing the quote sacred parts, whether that's your own bed or your own kink between your partner, your pet names, a favorite pair of panties, or the one thing that we only do with each other, a certain type of sexual act, anything like that. It's a lot.

Yeah, no wonder we need four episodes to cover this. Right, it's complicated. Okay, well, let's, let's go back to envy, because a lot of, and, you know, we, we did an episode on this and I remember in that episode, we talked about how we're kind of just envious of our friends when they are going to be with somebody else. But, but a lot of people say, oh my gosh, we, we did, we took all, we did all this research. We put ourselves out there. we met this couple, we connected, we played with them, and now they're going out with other people. That seems to happen a lot.

And isn't it interesting, I think, sometimes that the compersion we may have for our own spouse sometimes doesn't bleed over into feeling compersion for our friends who are then out playing with other people. Well, first, let me say, let's define compersion, because I'm not sure that it's in the dictionary yet. The compersion is the feeling where we feel joy when our partner is feeling joy. We feel pleasure when our partner is feeling pleasure. And so it's something, it's not just like, oh, I'm happy for them.

It's this like, you have this embodied feeling while your partner is enjoying something. So that's, some people say it's the opposite of jealousy. I'm not sure if it's really on a spectrum in an opposite way, but that's what compersion means. But I agree. This one comes up a lot where people have done, like you say, have done all this work, and then they get tripped up when their special friends are playing with other special friends.

And if we go back to the definition of envy that there are lots of different definitions, but the one that I have here on my list is the sadness that someone has something that you don't. And I would say in that case, it's time with those special people. You're wishing you were out with them. So we're envious of those other people that are getting their time and attention. And I will also say that this particular flavor is one I love. You guys are so vulnerable and put it out there. This is one a lot of people won't talk about.

This one almost embarrasses them more than being jealous of their own partner. And so actually, Jason and I are doing a workshop on why am I only jealous with other partners? We're doing a whole workshop on that at the end of January because we hear this all the time and people are whispering it to us.

And we're like, all of you whisperers should get in a group and talk to each other this is very common i just i think also it just comes with experience just like a lot of this stuff because um once we realize that there are other people attracted to us and we we can have more than one couple that we're friends with you know i think a lot of it is just lack of experience Well, I think it goes back to the comparison thing. You know, if, if your friends are playing with other people, then it might be a natural instinct to compare yourself to the other couple that they're playing with.

Like, you know, are they hotter? Are they, you know, more fun or, you know, whatever. Um, it's so, you know, and again, that comparison is a problem. Absolutely.

And it also goes back to some of that primal brain where, especially if we're being sexual with this other couple, even though in the smart part of our brain, we know that we're not having sex with this other couple to create more humans to keep the tribe alive, our bodies set forth this whole round of chemicals after we have sex with somebody that's like, okay, go bond with them and create a life together to protect this young child that you've just created. And we're all like, whoa, no way. I'm not thinking that. Of course we're not up front.

We all know that in the smart part of our brain, but our bodies can just go into this default auto mode of now I need to attach myself to this other person. And again, this is one of those experience things I'll never forget early on in our experience. We were driving away from a wonderful play session and I noticed that my brain was doing that. I was like, oh, when can we see them and And we can invite them to this. And we could do this. And we could do this. And I'm like, my connective self is trying to barnacle onto them. And I laughed.

And I was like, oh, look at my lizard brain trying to make us a little commune. But I know I didn't want that. But again, with experience, you can notice like, oh, look, my brain's thinking they're going to be our, our, you know, polyquad or whatever. And maybe that's the case, but not necessarily. And so I think once you've had that experience of really clicking with a couple, enjoying it, and knowing that there will, that will come again, and that they are wonderful people in your lives, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

It's a little bit easier to slow down when it's envy or when it's comparison because i still have my partner on my side you know if if it's jealousy with my own partner i feel totally isolated and abandoned but if it's another couple i'm like it's easier for me to get a little bit more logical and say wait a minute what am i what am i worried about here i'm not losing anything i'm coming home and spending time uh or with with my partner which before this lifestyle was something that i just adored so why am i even upset about this so I think even though that's a little bit, it's hard to be logical like that, when you have a teammate with you that can remind you of that, or you can hold on to each other and say, lick our wounds together and say, look, we're the same age.

So we're just going to commiserate together. But you don't feel so abandoned, I think, in those cases. Oh, that's such a good point. I remember we were, sounds so middle school, but we were dumped by a couple one time. And they did it in a really pretty shitty middle school way. And it was really hard. I mean, obviously, I'm a pretty sensitive person, given what I do for work. It broke my heart in a way. I mean, I was really sad. I mean, obviously I'm a pretty sensitive person given what I do for work. It broke my heart in a way.

I mean, I was really sad, but it was lovely to be able to lean into that sadness with my partner. So it wasn't as lonely as a breakup out on the single scene, I'm sure. It still hurt. It still had a lot of things we had to deal with. But yeah, we could And, you know, we could just put on our sweatpants and watch Netflix together and lick our wounds. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And then from a guy's perspective, I guess, and I, I don't know, I think I'm biased because I am a guy and I've had this experience, but to the performance aspect of it, especially as I age and my health situation has changed.

It's easy for me to look across the bed and be a little bit envious or jealous of what more is going on over there than would be if she were with me. So I don't know if women feel that way about themselves, but i know guys do. And it's a blow to our egos. And it's just a reminder that we're aging and that I can't keep up. So a lot of times that enters the guy's mind. Well, and I think, and Ms. Jones, I would love to hear your thoughts on this from the lady's perspective, but I will remind you, Mr.

Jones, that we sadly in our society, one of the ways that we socialize boys and men is that the way that they can get intimacy and connection and love and validity is through sex, which is this organ that sticks out, right so there is so much riding on focused on this appendage because it isn't just about a pleasure center it's again it's where you get love it's where you get connection it's where you get validation and and so I think that the way men compare their penises in all these different ways shape size hardness performance longevity I'm performance.

Because there has always been so much focus on that one area of your body giving you so much in the intimacy arena. Well, I think performance, we can probably, I don't know, this sounds, I don't know, but like we can fake it till we make it in a way.

Not that we fake orgasms, but our bodies, you know, our bodies are a little bit more um accommodating i guess during play where men like if you know if they're not going to get an erection they're not going to get an erection and you can't really hide that whereas you know we might need a little bit of lube to get things moving along, but then that usually fixes the issue. Sure. I think our games, our challenges can be in our heads a lot. And again, you can compartmentalize that if you need to in the moment. Not that you should, but it's probably easier to fake.

I think there is one way that you can, because I've always bragged about mrs jones is the um best blow job i've ever gotten i've ever received that's no pressure no but i but i know a lot of ladies have made a comment like did i what did i do it okay was it okay did you enjoy it and uh you know why didn't you have an orgasm or you know so I think I think there is a little bit of that sometimes that but you know I think for the most part and I can pretty much answer for all guys as long as you're not using your teeth it was really good well and I'll also say that some of the performance insecurities that I've heard from women would be things like if they are one of the very many women that can't orgasm through penetration, and then their husband is with a play partner that's having multiple orgasms from penetration, that can be a compare and despair.

Or, of course, the elusive squirting can be another compare and despair piece. Or somebody that's really flexible and despair. Or of course, the elusive squirting can be another compare and despair piece. Or somebody that's really flexible and athletic and can do all sorts of different positions that maybe your body doesn't fit in.

And then I think, of course, men and women, but I'd say this is happening more for men, sadly, and just as much, if not more for women, is body insecurities and the ways that we compare and despair our bodies and the performative factor that porn has put out for men and women about what our bodies are supposed to look like, what our orgasms are supposed to sound like, how many they're supposed to be, what's supposed to come out of our bodies. There's, yeah, it makes sense that people get a little jealous about it. Yeah.

So I want to go back and talk about about you mentioned when you were going down your list the best the best parts she gets the best parts or he gets the best parts and we have a couple of different friends in the lifestyle who we've intentionally said look if i ever get to be too wifey for you or too much of a husband then tell tell me because I just want to be the fun person. I want to be the friend because if you, it's really not fair to your partner because we, we raise kids, we handle finances, we've got family issues. Uh, you know, we've got our own health concerns.

We've all careers, all of these things that are a part of a partnership in a marriage or a partnership. Sometimes our play partner friends don't have the encumbrance of carrying all that. And so there can be a little bit of jealousy in that, well, they just get the fun part of you, and then we got to come home and deal with real life. Yes, absolutely. I've heard a lot of couples struggle with that and that is often an issue that they bring to coaching or therapy.

And a lot of times the way that we address that is a little bit two-pronged is, of course, number number one making sure that you are taking the space and time to be the fun one for each other and you know going and I can't tell you how many times I've suggested go get a hotel room just for the two of you not because you have sexy play friends coming into town go have hotel sex just the two of you you know the date nights the things like that and and I think when we when we're especially new in the lifestyle, we want to spend every little bit of time we have away from our kids or our family or our responsibilities going after lifestyle opportunities.

And I think that's a big mistake. It's a common one. It makes sense why we would want to do that. You're with me anyway. Let's go. You've got to pepper in the fun time, just the two of you to try things. The other way, the other prong that we use in that one is flipping it a little bit to remind each other that that's the security, right? You've built so much security together in knowing that you can deal with health issues and financial issues and family issues and career issues. You have years of experience with that.

The concrete security that you have in a house and your children and all this, but also that security of going round and round hard things with each other so many times, that's kind of your anchor in a good way. Not to mention, I always talk about sames attract and swing. I think we may have talked about that before. It was some great advice we got from the first couple we were ever with, like opposites attract and building a life together and sames attract and swing.

And so the men that I've had the most fun with and the most connection with this, this particular guy, for instance, our first couple, you know, we're just, we're talking and talking and talking. We have all this, we want to like nerd out on all this stuff. And then he stopped and he's like, but imagine living with me on like a Wednesday afternoon. And I kind of recoiled. He's like, yeah, that wouldn't be so fun for you and me, would it? And I was like, oh my God, no, I'd be craving my husband like crazy.

And so to remind yourself that that shiny best part is really fun on a Friday and Saturday night, but probably not on a tough Wednesday when you got a health diagnosis or your kids, we got to go back to see the principal's office. You probably wouldn't want that person there. I think we talked about this briefly when Cal was on with us a couple of months ago, because the whole idea of sharing something sacred, the marriage bed, the PIV sex, penis and vagina sex, that we've taken these marriage vows and now we're potentially going to interrupt that or let people intrude upon that.

And I remember us talking about the positive things that you get from it. It's not more of what you're losing, but maybe you could look at it like what you're gaining. You're gaining a connection with a couple that you've never experienced before. Or the two of you have shared something sexy with somebody else, and nobody can take that away from you. I'm wondering what your, you know, kind of opinion is on the things that people are afraid to give up because they're sacred.

I would say that a lot of this is driven by our very normal and natural and primal desire to feel special unique um like we are the only person in the world that could do this or that for you job security is another way to think of it because again if you go back primally we wanted to ensure our place in the tribe and so if we were the very best hunter then we're never getting voted off the island if the the chief felt like the way that you cooked this certain mead was the best then you're not getting voted off the island and so we have a very deep and primal desire to feel special to feel unique like no one could take our place and then when we so then when we bond with someone when we're when we have our partner we create esther perel talks about this where we we create what makes our us our little pet names our little rituals our little jokes and the more the longer you're together the richer that gets.

And that is part of what creates security. Like nobody will ever get it when, you know, that certain line from friends comes on, we can find each other across the room and burst out laughing because we remember the party and, you know, whatever. And so I think that that goes into, I think that the, the hesitancy to share something sacred makes a lot of sense. And I often will say like, okay, so even if you're ethically non-monogamous, you can choose which parts of your relationship are monogamous. And maybe the only thing that's monogamous, you're wide open in every way.

You can love, you could live with somebody, whatever. The only place, the only thing that's sacred for you is a certain pet name. hang on it, love on it. That's great. That can be your thing. And it's that desire to feel like I'm the only me in the whole world to this person. Okay. Well, I don't know if I'm better armed now or more depressed now because I thought Jealousy is so simple and it means there's a whole lot of other areas that we need to be prepared to experience if we wander into a space that we're unfamiliar.

But on the other hand, you're giving us some good tools and resources, you know, from which to, or to use to battle against that. So that's good. I was gonna say, I think some of that back and forth for you is is why that AFOL acronym is something that we hang on to. And you know, the tongue in cheek, another fucking opportunity to learn. We love opportunities to learn. And sometimes we're like, can the school day be over yet?

And we've talked many times that when couples understand that this is not just about sexy fun, this is also an opportunity to know yourself deeper, more fully than you ever have, to know your partner more deeply and fully than you ever have, to be on a growth edge for yourself, which keeps you interesting to your partner because you're a different person every day because you're growing, to keep your relationship on a growth edge so that it continues to be exciting into its fourth decade. There is so much here for you to use to grow. So AFOL, AFOL, another fucking opportunity to learn.

Like, oh, this makes me exhausted. And I always want to keep growing. This is what I've signed up for, right? Yeah.

So what I hear you saying is you need to slow down number one and you should be grateful and you should be grateful for another opportunity to grow and learn bingo and then slow down again right all right when we come back we we canvassed listeners and community and people had a lot of comments and questions about jealousy and so when we come back we'll go over some of these situations and we'll see if they sound familiar to you all Okay, well welcome back to segment three we are going to dive into some of these questions and hear what nuggets of wisdom katherine has to share so the first one is i really want to contribute as i'm trying to figure out what my is.

I have felt the typical or traditional jealousy before, but rarely in the lifestyle. I've had moments where I was afraid the other husband was becoming too attached to my wife. Not sure what kind of feeling that is, but it was quite strong. Thankfully, we were able to address it with a simple conversation and trying again, so to speak, but it was a weird time in the early stages of our journey. I think this one's so great. This is why we call it flavor, right?

There might be at Baskin-Robbins 12 flavors that are chocolate, but there are 12 different flavors of chocolate that add different things. This one's a very nuanced one. And I just love that this person shared this with us. So I hear this as a protective form of jealousy. And the other thing that came to me is the idea of the golden rule, which is something I teach a lot. And we all know, you know, treat others as you'd like to be treated. And that works well for our social niceties.

But it really messes us up if we use the golden rule to try to figure out or assume what another why another person is doing something right so if we if we assign what what we would do but if we did x it means y then the other person does x and we assume it means Y for them, but not necessarily. So I'm going to, I'm thinking this might be some golden rule, a golden rule would be helpful to look at this. So imagine this listener that you became, when you became really attached to your wife, how much it affected you. It drove your decisions.

It probably changed your life in so many ways, changed the trajectory, the direction, what mattered to you. So maybe some part of you assumed that if this other person became attached to her, that he would move heaven and earth to be with her too, and therefore maybe try to displace you. So you remember when you felt so strongly about your wife. So if this other person's feeling so strongly about your wife, it's going to set the same dominoes in action, but not necessarily. Yeah. Yeah.

I remember saying the same thing way back in episode three, because I thought, well, wait a minute, I'm married to the most amazing woman there is. So obviously other guys are going to fall in love with her the way that I did. It was just kind of a normal thought. But I like when you talk about the fear that we have based on a narrative that we've told ourselves, that gets in the way of communicating.

Because if I think I already know the reason and the end the story then i'm not really listening because i already know so i think the hardest thing to do there is to clear your mind and say okay i don't know so i need to listen for the first time so that i can better understand because i think once we've once we've convinced ourselves over and over again I know what's going on here. Even if the person is telling you a completely different narrative, you're sometimes not hearing it because it doesn't jive with what you know is the actual truth. The quote truth.

Well, that actually reminds me when you were giving that example earlier about laying in bed and looking at the ceiling and coming up with what you're absolutely sure has happened i thought of that when you said it then that when we when we sit there and we ruminate on that and we create our capital t truth then when we do finally talk to our partners anything that they say that isn't in line with our capital t truth we could even think they're oh you're getting defensive you're defending yourself. You see, you're lying because this is the truth. And it's the other person's like, what?

Because they haven't been following your head as you've been looking at the ceiling the whole night. So it is so important that we slow down those stories and assumptions. And, you know, if this, if this listener had, you know, had not stopped and had a conversation and cleared the air, then every time he was with his wife and this other couple, he could have been gathering evidence and tidbits to put in this file of he's going to steal my wife because he's falling for her.

And that's all he'd be able to see and not be able to keep it in perspective of what the actual truth of the situation was. Right. Okay, here's the next one. My jealousy has always stemmed from a fear of being replaced or being deemed, quote unquote, not good enough in comparison to another. I think it comes down to a confidence issue on my part and trust in my partner. First of all, I just put my hand on my heart with the not good enough and how many of us in different areas or times in our lives or arenas, we felt this. And it's just, it's such an awful feeling.

And so I'm feeling empathy for this listener who has had to feel that not good enough. And I also want to remind you how normal it is. So when I hear people talk about lack of confidence, not feeling like they're enough, worry about trust in their partner, I know this is shocking, but I'm going to say dig deeper. So I would encourage this person to dig deeper into that lack of confidence.

Because if you just say, oh not very confident what is that confident about what there's no specificity there and so the more you can dig on in what areas you feel like you're not good enough or where your confidence lacks the more specific you can be the easier it will be to actually address those issues if you can or soothe yourself if there are areas that you just need to accept about yourself. But just saying, oh, I'm not very confident, that's not, it's too broad. We can't do anything with that.

We need to understand what we're working with so we can move into action or move into soothing. And I would say it's pretty similar with the same kind of thing with feeling lack of trust in your partner.

Specificity is going to be the key key here you need to understand what specifically you feel you can't trust and then I'm going to really encourage you all to listen next month when Kel is going to twist your head around and put it on upside down about the way you look at trust because it is not what you think and so when we say oh it's trust in my partner a lot of times it's more like they're not doing what you think they should do and therefore you think you can't trust them so if users are saying I don't feel like I can trust my partner first and foremost you need to get specific about what you mean and then let Kel put it through some uh put you through some uh through some filters and some rubrics and and see if you if you can get some more information there.

I liked a little bit of a teaser there for next month. Yeah, this situation is the one that speaks to me the most. The one time that I really felt, I don't even know if jealousy is the right word. I don't know. I need to like come up with a new word for it but um it was a situation where Mr. Jones had a a mental connection with someone that was like him and not like me because Mr. Jones and I are very opposite and you were just referring to that a minute ago, Catherine, about being attracted to people that you're like.

And she could offer him something that I can't because I have a very different personality. So I wasn't feeling a lack of confidence. I was just feeling this big divide that I couldn't step across because I'm just not like that and so I really couldn't like come up with a solution because I am who I am you know as far as like you know I feel like you know sometimes one of you has to be the bad guy you know like I'm the organizer of the house I'm the get in the weeds and do the dirty work work. And Mr. Jones is the big thinker and the creative one and the fun one.

You know, so those types of things create this jealousy. And I think I was just jealous of the situation, not really the person. Or yeah, or to watch him light up in a different type of connection, which you'reeing up beautifully for the next one um but you're right it's it's i think when that happens like you say there isn't necessarily solution but i would say that it's important to lean into the places where you are the unique special only person in the world there's so many more of those that you could point to than this one with this one woman who had a mental connection with them, right?

But again, when we get scared, our brains are going to look for, our brains register threat to our survival way higher than benefit to our survival. So our Amy G. Dalla is going to remember where the tiger den is a lot more readily than where the mango trees were, because we can go for a long time without eating. But if we have a fight with a tiger, we're out of here in minutes, right? And so in that way, it seems like maybe your brain was really focused on this one area where you weren't quote as good as or didn didn't have quote as good a connection.

And in that, in doing so, it was so myoptic that you missed all the other ways that you have a much deeper connection and you are the most unique person to him. Right. Right. And I mean, my lid was so flipped, like the logical part of my brain knows all those things. But, but, you know, I think when our lids get flipped, like, like you were talking about, you know, trust and, and I, and I trust Mr. Jones and I trust our relationship, but none of that was applying in the moment, you know? And I, and I think that's the, that's the toughest part about reading and jealousy.

All of this makes perfect sense on paper or listening to the podcast. People are probably nodding their heads. Yep. Until their lids flipped. And then like, it's like, well, the rules don't apply here because like, this is my issue. So then if we can just get them to remember one rule, slow down. Yeah. Just slow down.

You know, because if you slow down, you might have, you might realize that there is one shred of your lid left on before it's completely flipped and you might be able to lean on that and that shred might be i need to we need to go ahead and leave and snuggle together and agree that we're going to make it and talk about this tomorrow and that's the last little shred of adulting or lid you have left on. But if you don't slow down, you'll never see that shred and you'll just be zooming on into that direction. Yeah. So Mrs.

Jones, would you like to read this next one that you teed up so beautifully for us? How about jealousy over non-play activities? It's okay to watch your partner fuck loudly but when they're sitting next to those same people laughing and he puts his hand on her leg and your stomach clenches what the heck no actually i can i can take this is the one that resonates with me because way back in episode three i got jealous the day after we full swapped with the couple. The sex part of it was great. And then the next day, the four of us were laying on one of the pool beds. And Mrs.

Jones reached over and was holding his hand and kind of caressing his hand because he was telling a very emotional family story. And I saw that hurt her holding his hand. And that's when I started to feel different. I said, something's going on here. I'm not sure what this is. It couldn't be jealousy because I just watched her have sex with somebody last night and that didn't bother me at all. Yes. And see, that's why we need the exhaustive list of flavors of jealousy. Because you're like, oh, well, jealousy only is this way. And I was fine when she fucked him. So it must be something else.

No, it's all jealousy. And it's all the same idea of inside job, outside job, right? But here, in this way, and you both are talking about this kind of indifferent and similar, it's different ways that you felt it but it's a similar idea that I think can really be nicely exemplified when you talk about the different types of intimacy and when I say the word intimacy most people think you know sex or penis and vagina and I always correct my clients what do you mean when you're saying that and when you hear it a different way I think it'll shift it for you. Intimacy. In-to-me-see.

There are so many different ways to see into a person. Yes, you can use it with your protruding erection. You can see way deep inside of her vagina. But that's only one. You can see into a person through their mental capacity and what they're interested in. You can see into their heart through their emotion. So you were watching Mrs. Jones share an emotional intimacy of empathy with this person. She was empathizing with his pain and that was a way to see into him and that felt scary. But having this guy see into her lady parts wasn't so scary for you, right?

The other types of intimacy can be spiritual intimacy. It can be physical touch that's non-sexual, emotional. There are lots of different ways that we can see into a person and want to be seen into. So it's really not uncommon to have jealousy in one area, but not the other. I worked with a couple recently, and the reason they came to me was similar to what you all are talking about, where she struggled with jealousy See you next time. not uncommon to have jealousy in one area, but not the other.

I worked with a couple recently, and the reason they came to me was similar to what you all are talking about, where she struggled with jealousy because her husband had an intellectual connection with this other woman, which is an area that they don't have a very easy alignment. So her husband and this other woman had a similar type of job. And so they could nerd out and talk about all the details of stuff that makes her brain just like fry because it's so boring to her.

But she could watch, she saw her husband light up talking about this with this other woman in a way she'd never seen with herself. But she also said, I get it. It's boring as hell. I don't even really want him to talk to me about it. But I'm watching him light up in a way that I can't get him to light up. And so while her, again, her rational brain saw kind of that that wasn't really fair, it was a little hypocritical, it got something in her because it was, whoa, this woman is getting a response from him that I'm not able to get.

And so we had to work on that and understand these different types of intimacy and have her lean into all the other areas and not just focus on that one and lots of different things. Yeah, and those are the things, Catherine, that really make a meaningful connection with people, with humans, because you can have, and I'm learning this more, I can have that type of intimacy connection with another guy just like I can with another female because of the way that we think and the way that we interact together and how well we get along and what do we have in common.

So it's almost to the point where men and women, you can equally be attracted to intimately from that perspective, from personality, from, you know, just intelligence, conversation. But when the sex is thrown in on top of it, all of a sudden it's a threat, you know, to you because you see it completely different because it's somebody of a different gender. So I think that's pretty interesting.

Well, to bring a happier ending to our story because we both just told you know situations where we we really struggled ironically a couple that we're really good friends with now um both of the scenarios we just described like you know her having the same personality as mr jones and me being like physically affectionate, like the whole handholding thing with the other husband.

Like we experienced that a lot now with the other couple and it doesn't bother us because like we, you know, we've kind of been through it and, and we've had to, I guess, face those demons and, and realize that is there and that, you know, our relationship is our relationship and those people can be part of that, but they're not replacing it. But you've got to suffer through the learning periods of that. Yes. And you too have, and that is a beautiful way to wrap that up.

And again, it kind of comes back to that, recognizing what's happening and saying, oh, oh, they're clicking in that personality way. Oh, if I'm not careful, I could let that bother me. But I remember the work I've done or, oh, wow, look at her grabbing his hand. I remember what this feels like. And I remember what this, where my brain could go with this, but I'm going to rein it in and I'm going to focus on the other ways that Mrs. Jones and I are really connected.

So the recognizing that feeling, again, this comes back, it's a lovely way maybe to wrap us up here is when you can recognize your most likely flavors of jealousy, then you have a chance to stay on top of it. You have a chance to know when it's likely to show up, what situations. And that doesn't necessarily mean avoid them. It's just more like, okay, episode 41, we talk about there's no bad weather, only bad clothing. So, okay, you know, this particular area might be a little stormy for me.

So I'm going to bring an umbrella or, you know, I'm going to be, I'm going to brace myself and be ready for that. Right. Okay. Last comment. And I think we touched on this a little bit. And that is, I feel like we all know the feeling if we are jealous for any number of reasons, but what about when our partner gets jealous over another play partner? How do you support them in this instance? What do you say? I find it interesting. You can have a complete compersion with your spouse, but the green giant creeps in with play partners.

yes and again this is uh this is the one that isn't discussed very, which is why we're doing a whole workshop on it. But I think that I will say one of the pieces that Jason and I have been kicking around as we've done our research for this workshop is comes back to that unique thing, right? Where we want to feel unique and special and we want to have security. And so if you think about the two of you, you have so much security in the decades you've been together and all the different ways that you've created security in your relationship. And now you are really enjoying these other people.

Well, you don't have that security with them. And so it is natural to have some of the jealousy that gets kicked up from insecurity or lack of relational security, because you don't have that longevity with them. And I would say this one is interesting, though, when they're saying that their spouse is feeling this, and how do we support them? I think the fact that you're asking this is the first thing.

It's just lovely, because what it tells me is that this listener hasn't just spun into defense or story or blaming or shaming their partner for feeling that way, but saying, wow, I see that this is happening for you. And I see that it's hurting you and I want to support you. And so I think continuing to do that, normalizing and saying, yeah, this is hard. And what can I do? And I love you. And, but making sure that it doesn't go into, well, why are you so focused on them? Well, why don't you just focus on me? Don't you love me enough?

Like making it about that person's ego is so distracting and misses the opportunity to support your partner through a difficult feeling. yeah well as we start to wrap up 126 the just the thoughts that through a difficult feeling. Yeah. Well, as we start to wrap up 126, just the thoughts that I have summarizing this is we probably will have another jealousy episode at some point in the future because there's a whole lot more to this. But I think because we're able to think back and we've had so many experiences that what I mentioned earlier is now where we are.

And that is, yeah, I mean, we might get bent out of shape or feelings get hurt every once in a while, but nowhere near to the level it did the first time I experienced jealousy. So I have a whole lot more confidence in what this is. And I have a whole lot more knowledge and experience on what real connections are in the lifestyle, and I feel like we're both on the same page. We both want the same things. um but yeah slowing down if that's possible especially at in the early parts of feeling jealous that that definitely is the key because if you.

I don't know that we touched on this, but if you don't slow down, you're just possibly inflicting more damage.

Because the things that come out of your mouth to your partner could be so abstract and so out there and think oh my gosh this what's going on here this is really scary or they are really this or you know they're saying things to me that are hurtful uh you know so not only is it a good thing to slow down so that you can reframe and, and get back to reality when your lid flips, but you're, you're also not, uh, expressing yourself through all of that stuff that's going through your head.

Well, and I think, um, as the one whose lid tends to come off a little easier than yours does, I think, um, you know, I, I, as it's happening, obviously you can't control it or it wouldn't flip to begin with, but I think I can, can get a handle on it quicker. And the thing I really want to express here is that you had to learn to not, I remember one of the first times I got upset about something, you said, that's ridiculous. And you didn't mean it to insult me. You meant it like, oh my gosh, there's no way that you should be insecure about that because I love you.

And that's what you were trying to say when you said, that's ridiculous. So you've had to learn how to reframe your response to my lid coming off and you have to help me like pat it back on top of my head yeah unfortunately i've had a little bit of practice at that just like anything else but the good news is you've learned from the practice yes yes yeah so what do you think how do sum this up, Catherine? Well, again, slow down, normalize. Don't spend all your effort trying to figure out what this is so that it couldn't possibly be jealousy.

Look at this exhaustive list and see if you see yourself in it. Remember, inside job, look at your stuff. stuff outside job check in with the security of your relationship slow down and just you know remember that there's so many opportunities to grow and learn in this crazy extracurricular that we have and that is the true to me that's the benefit of The sexy fun keeps us on the journey, but this opportunity to keep learning and growing and knowing our partners, it's just such a gift. Yeah.

And just to give a little bit of a plug for Expansive Connection, it's also a good time to talk to a third party because just like we talked about with you, Catherine, when we podcasted about the value of coaching and therapy in the lifestyle, just having a third person in the room reduces the opportunity for the lid to flip. It keeps you in the adult chair a little more consistently.

Yeah, and so that is another thing to think about when you're in a situation like this is especially if it's the first time and you feel overloaded and you don't know how to handle it and listening to podcasts just isn't quite enough. You know, that's what expansive connection is there for. Absolutely. We'd love to, to help people walk through their journey and, and find their, their flavors and the tools that they need to stay regulated and grow closer. We'd love to do that. So you mentioned a PDF that we're going to attach in the show notes, and you mentioned a podcast earlier.

Did you have any other specific resources for jealousy that you wanted to throw out there or at least get to us to include in the show notes? Well, definitely would like to plug our workshop coming up at the end of January about what happens when you feel jealous about other partners. So we'd love to have people come in that.

We're going to do a mix of teaching and group processing and learning from each other, which we find that if we ever do a class and all we do is lecture and we don't let people get in breakout rooms, people hate it because of course, ethically non-monogamous people want connections. So they love to get in groups and talk about this. So we make sure to have plenty of time for that. And yes, we'll be happy to share the flavors and a couple of the podcasts that I mentioned, we'll make sure to throw in the show notes to keep the learning going. Excellent.

And then if they want to learn more about Expansive Connection or the workshops coming up, where do they go to find that? So we have a website, expansiveconnection.com. That's our vanilla website. And then if you add slash E&M for ethical non-monogamy, then you'll find the spicy side. And that's where you can get access to all the podcasts we've ever been on. So lots of free learning there. The self-study offerings that we have, the live learning offerings we have. You can sign up for our newsletter, which I highly recommend. We send one out once a week where we share resources.

We tell you what the coaches are listening to. We'll tell you where we're going to be speaking opportunities to to hang out with us we'll give recaps of events we've been to so it's usually like i say it's once a week and you get to keep up with what we're doing so check us out there we also have an instagram account expansive.connection.coaching and so any and they can contact you through that website as well and you can find find a link to Expansive Connection on the wegotathing.com website.

And if you are in our members-only community, Expansive Connection, all of the coaches from Expansive Connection are in our space and provide a lot of workshops and resources there as well. And if you're not in our community, you can learn about that on our website at wegotathing.com. And you can follow us on Twitter. So, Catherine, thank you again for joining us. Another successful year collaborating together. We're excited about the podcast together. We're looking forward to seeing you and your team at some point in 2025 as we begin to make plans.

And as we mentioned, Kel is going to be with us next month to talk about trust. So thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. And we always love our collaborations with you. So thanks for listening. We are Mr. and Mrs. Jones. And I'm Catherine. And we got a thing. What's your thing? We'll see you next time.