Episode 120: The Benefits and Challenges of Non-monogamy with Expansive Connection

Transcript

This podcast contains explicit language and content and is for mature audiences only. Hey you teenagers out there, if you're under 18, this show is more for your parents. So now that you have that mental picture stuck in your head, put some music on and get back to doing your homework. We are a long-time married couple who's decided to chronicle our personal adventures and share our sex-positive discussions as we navigate our way through the swinging lifestyle. Care to join us?

hello everyone i'm mr jones and i'm mrs jones and i'm kel from expansive connection and we want to welcome you to episode 120 of the we got a thing expansive connection edition podcast which is really episode one of the we got a thing expansive connection podcast it is. And last month, and what was, this one's 120. So last month, and let me do the math, 119. We had Catherine again from Expansive Connection at the very end of that podcast.

We talked about how we are going to go into this more formal partnership with Expansive Connection because we've been working with you ladies and gentlemen now for quite a few years and we're really excited that we're going to add an additional podcast every month and so we're just going to actually this first segment guess what it's going to be called what keeping up with the coaches get it i got it that's very clever thank you i think that was Catherine's idea. It was definitely Catherine's idea. She loves alliteration. Yeah.

So let us go over the purpose of these podcasts and how this is going to be different from ours. As I mentioned, We Got a Thing has had a longstanding relationship with Expansive Connection and even Catherine before Expansive Connection came into existence.

existence and we've done events together we've done podcasts together and as katherine mentioned people kept asking her to start her own podcast and she had no interest in doing that um so i said well we'll be happy to help you with that uh and so this is kind of like what do they call it a spinoff uh I think this is like our first spinoff of the We Gotta Thing podcast. So anyway, that's why we're here. And I think, Kel, you wanted to mention from your perspective, how is this going to be different?

And, you know, I've heard a lot of podcasts where you hear a lot of counselors and therapists, but you all had a very unique way of handling this. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your approach to this? Absolutely. Well, we were talking about this partnership for a spinoff. I think what we felt like we could add or that would be a different voice would be our own personal experiences in this journey we're all on into non-monogamy.

So we really wanted to take those and be able to express those to people listening, but also the beauty and the gold that we have set and listened to for hours and hours and hours with our clients. We have heard so many amazing stories. We've heard so many amazing lessons. We've heard so many amazing horror stories, to be honest. And we just felt like if we could bring some of that to people listening, it would be another way for them to learn, another way for them to think about this idea of what non-monogamy or a little less vanilla, to coin Mrs. Jones, a life would look like.

So we just wanted to add that to what you guys are already doing so beautifully. So I think it's going to be like a good like mashup of how we kind of collect our topics for these episodes going forward. Like we're going to be getting questions from podcast listeners. We're going to be getting questions from our community members. We're going to be like going back to old We Got a Thing episodes and revisiting topics. And then, like you said, you guys have a wealth of information that you've gathered with all of your coaching experiences. Yeah, absolutely.

And we can just kind of add our take on all those amazing things that are going to come forward. And, you know, we've mentioned expansive connection and we've mentioned, Kel introduced herself, but Kel, why don't you tell us, since we're going to be talking about this from a personal standpoint, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your relationship and where you're coming from in the lifestyle? Sure, absolutely. So my husband and I have been together for, gosh, we've been married almost 25 years. We've been together. I mean, he's sitting right here.

So should we do, is he going to fact check you during this episode? I doubt it. I'm hoping he doesn't look at me and then I'll get all, oh gosh, what am I getting wrong about this? I'm not the memory keeper of our relationship. That is definitely his role, but I'll do it for the microphone. Let's see. So we've been together a long time. We met in high school. We were the traditional No, I don't know. memory keeper of our relationship. That is definitely his role, but I'll do it for the microphone. Let's see. So we've been together a long time. We met in high school.

We were the traditional high school sweethearts, and we got married really young. We also grew up in the church, so that was kind of the thing you did in the South. And, you know, we had a wonderful marriage. We've had wonderful children. We have wonderful families. And about 10 years ago, we started to explore just a more fun sexual experience. We started going to clothing optional resorts, clothing optional places. And that was just kind of a fun dip your toes into not so vanilla of a life. And it was fun. It was wonderful. And I was really sure that was all I ever wanted to do.

I was not interested in going any further into this journey or any further along on this spectrum. And so he came to me and said, I really am interested in exploring more and seeing what else is out there. And I've been listening to podcasts and I've been researching because that's just what he does. And so he brought me all this information, and I very kindly told him I wasn't interested, that my original intent still held, and that was not going to happen. And he patiently waited, I think, about a week and came back to me and said, well, no, I really, really... Wait, patiently a week?

Uh-huh, yeah. Oh, okay. Go ahead. I was just clarifying that. That was pretty patient for him. So he waited about a week and then showed up and said, no, I really am serious. I'm really interested in this. I just want to have a conversation with you. And I repeated that, no, I wasn't interested and that was not going to happen. And I didn't know why he was even coming and asking me again. And so I think he may have waited another week again. He's a very patient man. He's the patient of a saint And came to me again. And finally, I guess I wasn't going to get out of it that easily.

So we sat down and had many long conversations about it and discussed why, how, what that would mean. And finally, I said, okay, you know what? It's very important to you. I'll give it a try. And if I don't like it, we're quitting. And so that was at least eight or nine years ago. And we haven't quit. And we've tried a lot of things and explored a lot of things. And we keep showing up every time. And when things go great, they go great. When they go poorly, we just try again. So it's gone well.

And then you have found that your personal venture into this then intersected with your passion for teaching and coaching. Absolutely. Well, and we, like lots and lots of couples that travel on this road together, had hiccups, had problems. And so one of the times that we experienced that after listening to this great podcast called We Got a Thing, we heard this really smart, intelligent woman talk about the hard parts of non-monogamy and her name was Catherine. So at that point, we were just two average people living our lives and reached out to her for our own personal coaching.

And she worked with us and just transformed our relationship, taught us things that we just didn't know, couldn't have known and introduced us to a lot of learning and growth. And after, I guess about six or seven, maybe eight months of that, um, Catherine kind of approached me and said, wow, you're such a good student. Um, why don't you consider being a coach to which I also politely told her, no, I was not interested. Um, there's a theme to my answers when people ask me questions. So she waited another week and then came back and asked you again. Yes. Yes.

She waited another week because we had another session so she could bring it up and I was paying her. So, um, she told me she really advised me to reconsider. Um, and I talked about it, um, with Jeff and we decided that we'd give that a shot too. So I dove into a lot of certifications and a lot of learning on top of the things I already knew from my just previous professional life. And here we are almost five years later, I joined her practice and we've added two other incredible coaches and we're always collaborating with other people.

And this little baby company that she started at your insistence, Mr. Jones, has grown and grown. So I'm really pleased to be a part of it. Yeah.

It's, it's, and what's fascinating about this is, and we've been around the block a time or two, and I've listened to a few podcasts myself and very rarely do you have an opportunity to talk to a professional who is also themselves, you know, um, experiencing a lifestyle lifestyle so i think that gives you all a little bit more depth to the conversation and um and and as mrs jones mentioned one of the things that we're doing is going back and and looking at some old we got a thing podcast topics to decide what we want to delve into further and this is this podcast is is from way back in 2017.

So we're going to talk about the benefits and the challenges of non-monogamy. But the title of the podcast was How Deep Is Your Love? Because this was back in the day when you let me choose song titles for episode titles. So I think, you know, I think how deep is your love? I mean, on the surface, you know, that's a cute title to a song and everything. But I think really that it's the depth of your love and your relationship that really helps you discover the benefits and survive the challenges, right? Right. But I think I'm here to make a confession in front of friends and family.

Just because it says right here that how deep is your love doesn't mean that's what I put on when I uploaded the podcast. The truth comes out. So, you know, you're happy, I'm happy. You know, he and I are sharing a microphone tonight, so I can't really like come back like I normally would, but I have so many thoughts right now. I love you. So when we come back to segment two, we're going to talk about benefits and challenges from the lifestyle.

We're going to refer back to episode 33 from 2017 and because we may have had a challenge or two since then and then but mainly we're going to hear kell from her experience personally and from her experience as a coach to help give us all a little bit of a different perspective and a glance into this so we'll be back in just a second I'll see you next time.

and a glance into this so we'll be back in just a second okay well welcome back to segment two we are here with kell of expansive connection to discuss the benefits and challenges of non-monogamy challenges i didn't i thought it was just all benefits you mean there's challenges along with this? We've had lots of butterflies and rainbows, but there's been some mud puddles along the way too, babe. Yeah. If you say so.

I mean, just briefly to go back to episode 33, we talked way back in 2017, we talked about some of these benefits were the personal growth that we experienced not only as individuals but couples and by the way we're not going to go too deep into this because you can always go back and listen to episode 33 uh we talked about the teamwork and a new closeness that we felt you know as we were going through this and if you'll remember back, honey, 33 was four episodes before we were outed. Yeah. I forgot. Yeah. This was when we were living in blissful ignorance. Yes. Yes.

So we did have a few challenges after episode 33. And really that's where the teamwork and the new closeness came in when we had to go through that together. Amazing reconnections, choosing each other over and over again. You know, when we were married 29 years and we got into this and we were always together, it was always us. And I think sometimes you can take your partner for granted after that long of a period of time, but these reconnections that we had really were, I think, a beneficial, a new level of trust.

Obviously, if I'm watching you have sex with somebody else and then you come back with me, I don't have any question in my mind as if you're going to somehow, by some miracle, find somebody better than me out there. Did you want to say something? I got nothing, sorry. I didn't think so.'t think so. And, you know, I think since 2017, there's been a whole lot of other benefits that we've come across. But I think what I'd like to do really now is, Kel, bring you into this and maybe talk a little about from your personal experiences, yours and Jeff's experience as far as what benefits were.

And then we'll talk more about it from your, uh, perspective as, as being a coach. Sure. So I think for me personally, and from our relationship, um, one of the biggest benefits has been this deep gratitude for the relationship that we have. Um, as I mentioned, we had been together, you know, a long time and really had a great and do, of course, still have a great marriage, great relationship, great friendship, great partnership.

And I think that until you step into a space that is different and challenging and offers you this chance to learn and grow, it's hard to really lean into the gratitude for what you have. And so I think that through some of the challenges we'll talk about when we get to that part, but when you survive those, when you go through something hard, it really reinforces how strong and secure what you have is. And so I definitely think that's probably one of the biggest benefits for me is just this realization of how lucky I feel.

And these benefits that you're mentioning, if we reflect back to Jeff coming to you a couple of times asking you to get into this, did it ever cross your mind that any of the benefits you just mentioned would have been in the realm of possibility when you're being approached by this non-monogamous lifestyle? No, definitely not. I mean, all I could see was the fear ideas and the scary things and the loss or the threat of loss or any of those things that felt very, everything that lives in the unknown was really what I could see.

And so I just couldn't imagine, you know, maybe I could imagine the fun, but I really couldn't imagine much more relationally past fun and adventure. Sure, this will be a fun adventure. But to realize the connectedness that would happen, the strength that would happen, just all of the things that would come between us in a positive way, I could not have foreseen. So yeah, it was definitely the unexpected that I would realize how great what I thought was already great was. And I think it got greater. I mean, we worked hard through hard things to make a better relationship.

And that seems so counterintuitive when you think you're going to open your relationship up to something scary that it can get better. I noticed you didn't put anything in here about sex with other people. So you didn't add this, but I'm going to ask you anyway, because the benefits that we've talked about so far have been emotional, they've been relational, they've been individual growth, and a lot of gratitude and securement and trust and things like this. But what was your opinion after you played with another couple?

I mean, what kind of a benefit did you find maybe in the physical part of it? I think that it was definitely the benefit of understanding sexuality as something that is fun, that is something that was mine and belonged to me, and I could do what I chose to do with it. I didn't have to just be what organized society, religion, my parents told me to do. I think there was a lot of freedom in that fun. Like, wow, this is actually fun. I definitely think it caused me to question a lot of the limits and rules and things I had been told. So I think I was surprised at how fun and freeing it was.

You know, I mean, we have had friends forever in, you know, our vanilla world and done all kinds of amazing things with them. And it just became another fun thing to do with people that we thought were great. It made our friendships, you know, it became a part of a friendship, not the only reason to be in a friendship. I think that it was also probably fascinating to learn. It's almost sometimes you can't know how great things are until you go experience them somewhere else. So it was also this like, wow, we always thought and always knew we had such a great sex life.

And then we went and had sex with others. We're like, well, that was fun. But it almost made us more enthusiastic about our own amazing thing we had. So it was almost like fun that made you want to come home and have even more fun and the fun you've already had. It's an odd way to see it, but definitely it was true. I love the way that you use the word freedom. I mean, it's fun for you as an individual, and it's certainly fun as a couple when it goes well. But I think the freedom that you experience, I never really, honestly, I don't know that I ever really thought about it in that way.

I mean, especially, and maybe I'm stereotyping here, but I think especially for women, to have sexual freedom is a huge thing. Yeah. Yeah. And to make choices, maybe for the first time, that are counterintuitive to all of the things you've been told are the right things to do. You know, it just really makes you think, who decides that? And if I decide it, well, gosh, I'm probably a pretty good judge of what's right for Right. And that self-trust that comes from that freedom is incredibly just empowering. And you take that into so many other areas of your life as well. So it translates.

I don't just feel free to make decisions for myself or speak up for myself in the bedroom. I took that freedom and really took it out of the bedroom and was like, wow, I could say that I don't want to go to this event or I can't volunteer on this committee or I don't want to, you know, go to this movie. I mean, I could say no to things because I had learned that I could say yes to things. And that just really was fascinating. I think saying no is very hard for women as well. Like we, oh, sure, I can bring cupcakes tomorrow for, you know, 25 kindergartners or sure, I can do this.

And you don't want to do it, and you don't have time to do it, and you have to sacrifice other things to do it. So yeah, I think learning that we have freedom, and then being supported by your partner at the same time to use that freedom to make your life go in a more healthy direction, more authentic direction. I think the word I'm searching for here, as I heard you say something that is t-shirt worthy, and that is when I learned how to say no, it helped me understand how to say yes. Really what we're talking about is now we realize we can make choices. It's a choice.

And I think some of the things that are presented to us in life, whether it's a yes or a no, we don't understand that we can choose. We don't have to do something or not do something because it's implied or because society says so, or because somebody says don't do or don't do this. So I think that's a really important thing to bring out. It's so much more than just the sexy fun with people, but really never thought of it that way before, but it really is empowering.

Now, from a coaching standpoint, though, now you sit into these sessions, as Catherine explained what these sessions are like, some of them in person, but most of them in Zoom, and some of them with individuals and some of them with the couples, and I'm sure you've done hundreds of them. So from your perspective, from a coach's perspective, what do you see other couples and individuals benefiting from in the non-monogamous lifestyle? Well, I think it really piggybacks off what we were just talking about, which is this ability to communicate things that are hard to communicate.

And, you know, as Mrs. Jones said, for me a long time, the ability to say no to someone, anyone, was really, really difficult. This ability to speak up for what I really wanted and what I didn't want. And especially when what I didn't want, the person looking at me really wanted. That is an incredibly terrifying place to be and definitely was for me. And I think that when we work with couples, we help them learn to find a voice that advocates for their own wants and needs, and can lean into relational wants and needs too.

So I think that people have the misconception that either I win, or, you know, in this case, my husband wins. And they feel like there's cost in both of those. And so if I say yes to him, and wants to do this thing, that's going to cost me because really I want to say no. But if I say no to him, that's going to cost him. And I don't want to cost him anything because I love him and I want him to be happy. And what we find is that we teach people a different way to communicate and that people that walk in the space have to learn a different way to communicate that is relational.

And relational is not necessarily I win or you win, it's we win. And it's how can we both win if we're not both being honest, if we're not both saying what we want, and then we're not laying that on the table for the two smartest people in our relationship to try to figure out. And I think what happens is that people and couples come to us and they are holding back so much of how they feel, what they're afraid of, what they want, what they think you want, and they're terrified of, or they're worried about, and they're creating all these scenarios in their head.

And we sit with people and get them to kind of pour all that in the center of the table and be honest about it, and then allow the two people in the room that are the, like I said, the smartest people in the room, but they're also the most loving and caring people in the room about the relationship and about each other. And wow, when they can make those decisions together and solve those problems as a team versus kind of, well, I got to decide for us who pays the price here. And I got to decide for us who wins and who loses. And then I'm just going to throw that out there as the decision.

And then somebody's going to be happy and somebody's going to be sad. That's just not the best way to communicate. And we have to learn that in this space. Well, and I think, you know, when you're learning to communicate in this space and you've been together as a couple for a long time and now all of a sudden you have to force words out of your mouth that you never expected yourself to say to your partner, that's terrifying, you know, and, and I think, you know, that's one thing after being married for 40 years that expansiveions has helped Mr.

Jones and I with is to learn how to just get the words out and give the other partner some credit for being able to accept what we're going to say, whether it's either something we want to try that's a little out of our norm or something that we haven't like been happy with that we need to work through and redirect. Um, it's the, so that I think the benefit is to learn how your partner like accepts your words and how they're going to receive your words. Yeah.

me ask you a different question i i would imagine um when a couple comes to talk to you and i'm going to just describe a typical scenario and i'm sorry i'm generalizing here but let's say that the gentleman is asking the woman to get into the lifestyle and the and the fee and the she's having difficulties And so they're talking to you about this, how difficult that is, is it for you to look at them and say, and I'm thinking in my head, first of all, buddy, you don't know what you're asking to get yourself into.

And second of all, Mrs., you don't really understand what you could possibly learn from this. So you have the, in a way it's like being a parent to a teenager and comes home, they come home and they say they're in love. And the first thing you want to do is roll your eyes because you know what it really is, but you can't roll your eyes and say, oh honey, but it's only this. As somebody who's a coach and who's been through this, how difficult is it for you to, you see the writing on the wall.

You can see clearly where they're both coming from, but how do you let them start to work through that as a couple to get to where you can see that really where they are and where they can be? Sure. I think one of the first things that we do is instead of saying, you know, in that situation, what you're saying is, you know, somebody's saying, I want to go left. And the other person is saying, I want to go right. You know, it's almost like they feel like they're at odds. This is this black and white, right and wrong type of conversation.

And what we always try to do is bring it into a space of, why do you want to go left? And why are you so concerned about going right? And what do you think is going to happen there? We really, really challenge people to talk about, you know, what are all of the reasons this could be wonderful? And then what are all of the reasons this could go terribly? And are there things that we could have conversation about that are nuanced in between those? Like, what if two things that you think could go wonderfully actually did go wonderfully?

And what if two things that you think are going to go terribly actually do go terribly? Then what? I think it, you know, to use our kind of tagline, it's an expansive conversation where people want it to be such a small conversation. They want it to be no, yes. And we really want to delve into the thousands of other ways that this could turn out besides great and awful.

And when we do that, and we talk about why would you want to do this, and what could go well, and what could go wrong, and what could you learn, and what could and what could you lose they start to actually kind of you know sort of put legs to it like oh wait maybe there could be something great in this oh wait maybe there could be something really challenging in this and are we ready do we have what we need and i think that realization then leads them to understand that we need to talk more yeah that this is not just uh, we can do this or no, I don't want to do this.

Because you're introducing a whole lot of other stuff that at that point in time, the guy's probably thinking, oh, shit, why did I even come here? Because I thought this was going to be a very simple thing. And now I have to communicate with my spouse. Yeah, I was just trying to get us to have some fun. Why are you making this a big thing? Well, it's a big thing. And I will say that translates into all the thing about skills is that what we know as teachers and coaches is that skills translate.

And so when you learn to have more nuanced, more expansive conversations about sex or about non-monogamy or about what you want and what you don't want, it's almost impossible for that not to happen about your finances, about what your plans for your children are, about your vacations, about how to remodel your home, about your in-laws. It just happens more and more and more. And you learn that so many of these things are not a win-lose or right-wrong. They're just the start of a teamwork type conversation. Now that I've got you off track, I'll try to get us back to where we were going.

There were a couple of things that you wanted to mention about other benefits that couples may experience. I think one of the things that I think is really fascinating and that people don't think about a lot is this amazing thing that happens when a relationship like mine that's existed and thrived for a long, long time still can find some newness. When there's this ability to see yourself or your partner in a brand new light with a new role, you know, we learn so much about each other in the space of not knowing what we're doing. And I think that that discovery is just fascinating.

And I, I hear couples all of the time report back to me. I never knew this about my partner. I never would have imagined that. And that's a gift. And it's a gift that I don't think you get, you know, doing the same thing year after thing year after year summer after summer and when you use the term new role do you mean like me watching mrs jones interact with another gentleman sure so whether it's intellectually emotionally physically it's that's the role you're absolutely absolutely i think that you see her in a different way like that but i also think that sometimes Mrs.

Jones, and I would guess that she's changed over this journey. And so now she even has a different role in your relationship. Maybe she has a louder voice about things that she didn't. Maybe she's less of a pleaser and she's more of a decider. You know, I have a feeling and I've got to advocate for that feeling. And, you know, I think we just, we get different skills. We, we put on different roles than we've had in our traditional relationships.

We have to, you know, you and I talked about this early in our relation or when we started the lifestyle and it was, I remember saying, I remember saying, I'm learning something new about you after X number of years, because we get to a certain point when you're married 10, 15, 20 or more years. And you're like, well, it's the same person. I know everything. No, I'm learning new things about her, about her interests and about, you know, what she desires and what she enjoys. And it's not just about sex with somebody else, even though that's pretty hot.

I'm learning new things about her after all this time. And that creates that new spark in your relationship that keeps it new. What do you mean by emotional management? So remember when we were talking about how learning to speak up for ourselves and learning to say no so I could learn to say yes was really important? Well, a lot of times, this is going to be a big surprise to you guys, but when I actually learn to speak up for myself and say no, the person in front of me doesn't really like to hear that. And so they may have big feelings about that.

You know, it's what people come to me and come to the other coaches and they say, OK, I want to learn how to say this, but I want to say it in a way that they're happy to hear it. And I just laugh and laugh because that's not possible. What actually we need is to learn whose responsibility is it to manage the feelings that you have. I can feel however I want to feel, but it is my job to manage those feelings and express them in a way that is kind and healthy and good for our relationship and good for me. And it is my husband's job to do that too.

And wow, do people get confused about whose job other people's emotional management is. You know, the thought that comes to mind when you explain that to so well, by the way, is, Mrs. Jones, when you and I were talking a few years ago about how the lifestyle enables us to separate, disentangle love with sex, you know, it was all jumbled together. And then through the lifestyle, we learned that they're two separate things, or they can be two separate things.

And what you just described, Kel, is more, if I can put out of my mind how another person is going to perceive this or take this, then I can concentrate on the issue itself and I can make a decision and a choice. Once I make that decision and choice, being unencumbered by that other thought of how somebody else is going to feel about it, then I can turn to that and I can say, okay, do I need to deal with that or not? How important is the person to me? Do we need to take the time to go there or do we just not? Because you've always said, Mrs. Jones, we're beholden to no one.

So at a certain point in time, unfortunately, people are going to get their feelings hurt. And it's not intentional. And it happens to us on the other end of it you know as well well i think it goes back to that to that word freedom i mean you know we have the the freedom to speak up and and i think as you said as long as you deliver a a message that the other person doesn't want to hear with kindness, then at the end of the day, that's the right thing to do for everyone. In the moment, it's going to sting. Sure. Absolutely.

And I think that what happens is that people will be really clear that they're being kind and they still will be hesitant to speak up because they don't want to carry the cost of someone else's reactions. Because that's really what we're talking about is when someone, everyone has a right to be disappointed. But it's the way that people react when they're disappointed that causes people to be like, oh, gosh, I don't want to deal with that. Well, emotional management is, guess what? You don't have to. That's that person's to deal with.

That is whoever you're speaking to and whoever is feeling disappointed. It's their job to manage that. And when we feel like we can't do that work of what you said, Mr. Jones, getting clean about what I need to say and how I feel without the noise of how somebody else is going to feel about this thing and then what are they going to do about how they feel? That's just chatter. And it really interrupts the job you're trying to do, which is, golly, what am I even trying to say here? And what do I need here? And what's important to me here? It's not your job to worry about the other thing.

And so again, that's sort of management. It's, well, whose is this to do? And that's a really good lesson. As much as I would like to talk about benefits all night. They're so much more fun. Now we need to talk about the challenges. And though back in episode 33, Mrs. Jones and I didn't talk about challenges in that episode, you've heard us over the years talk about a few, maybe one or two challenges that we've had in the lifestyle, staying connected, being one of them, preserving us, you know, we get pulled in a lot of different directions.

And as you're in the lifestyle and you meet new people, and there's all this other stuff that we want to do with them, how do we preserve, you know, what we have? Because we found after a period of time, like, wait a minute, we're, and Mrs. Jones, you mentioned this to Catherine not too long ago, we were leaning on our relationship so much that it was something we were beginning to take for granted. And after a while, we realized that, you know, we can't do that. We need to preserve us and we need to stay connected as a couple. So that was, those are just a few challenges that we've faced.

And there may be one or two more that I'm not recalling. Well, you know, this episode that we're referring back to was, what, seven years ago? And I mean, we have had new challenges. And part of the new challenges that we're facing is that we think we know what we're doing after 10 years, you know, and, you know, I can't say that with a straight face. You're always going to have challenges.

And I think part of our challenges as an experienced couple in the lifestyle is that sometimes the way we've always done it and it's worked like a charm doesn't work anymore and you know it's like well why did that happen like you know we've had this type of experience so many times in the past and we've come through it completely unscathed and now all of a sudden you know we're kind of falling apart so I think overconfidence on your with your experience can be a huge challenge yeah Yeah, definitely. The unpredictable nature of what we're doing is definitely.

So we're going to hear from Kel, the person now, but I have a suspicion because I heard you sneak the word religion in earlier this evening. So I'm going to guess that might be one of the things that you experienced as a challenge. Am I right? It definitely, it was probably definitely the first big challenge for me when we had this discussion originally. And I think that it was more the identity that I had held of what it meant to be a person of faith, a good person, someone with good moral character, you just fill in the blank there.

And for me, you know, gosh, if you grow up in church, there's 10 big rules. And, you know, they're not the hardest ones to keep. They're like, okay, well, gosh, I'm not going to steal. I'm not going to murder anybody. And oh, by the way, there's that adultery one. And I think it was really difficult for me to untangle what it meant to me to be a person of faith and what my faith meant versus these rules and kind of the lessons I had been taught for 20 plus years, 30 years or probably at that point. It was just difficult. It was really hard to untangle that.

So when Jeff came to you the first time and the second time and you simply just rejected him so coldly and harshly, was it the religion part of it that was your number one concern or was it him having an interest in another woman? No, I really think it was probably what does this mean for the idea of myself as this person who is good this person who is um you know upholds her values who is i worked really hard to be a person that i felt like you know was who i who I believed I wanted to be.

And a lot of that was based on things that I had just been taught in Sunday school and things I had been taught in youth group. And I never really stopped to question those things because they just were. And I think that it was the first time that I really was going to have to question those things. And alongside being the kind of wife that my husband was asking me to be in a partnership with, I was going to have to do that hard work. And it was hard. It was a struggle. I think that as a shout out to Mrs.

Jones, you guys did a beautiful podcast episode about that all the way back at number four, where you talked about your own struggles with that and your own decisions about that. And I think listening to that was one of the things that really helped me open my eyes to, wait, there might be more than one way to still be good, to still be the kind of person that I really have worked hard to be. And maybe I need to discover what those rules are and what those rails are for myself.

And again, to go back to that word freedom that we talked about in the benefits, to realize that, you know, part of being free is being able to make choices and trust yourself in those choices. And that was really hard, but has paid a tremendous amount of benefits to me outside of this, just as a person.

Well, I think, you know, the way we're brought up as young women in our society, we're, you know, we're taught to be modest, you know, But then you go into the marriage bed and you think okay well i'm you know i wore white at my wedding i'm pure i'm demure like it's all you know love and flowers and then we're supposed to come become these crazy sexual beings but then you're supposed to be this beautiful pure mother that gives birth this baby. You know, so there's just such a dichotomy of these roles that we're wearing. And it's all the same role. You're being a life partner.

And you have all of these ways that you partner together with your spouse. And we just don't talk about the sexual part of it in society, but really it's what binds you together. Yeah, absolutely. And I can remember sitting in church and hearing sermons about sexuality to where they were really geared towards women having more sex. And it was like, hey, let me find all of the Bible verses that say that you should be, you know, meeting all your husband's needs in this area and saying yes and, you know, submit and all those things.

And so it felt like such a mixed up message that it was something that was good, but it was only good in these certain parameters. And to me, either something is good or it's not. And I think it was really busting it out of, again, who does this belong to? Who decides this? And having some freedom to make those choices for myself. And I want to continue to use these words, bad and good or wrong and right. Because the way that you expressed your feelings at first, it was, for whatever reason, this would be wrong.

But then I suspect you get to a time, because we did, when all of a sudden, it felt right. There's a gap between those two things. And that is what people tend to forget. They hear us on the side of being at peace with this, and they want some magic pill about how do I get there. You got to go from the, from the thinking that it's bad or wrong to, to defeat to making it feel like it's right. You have to put yourself in that situation and, and you have to have the courage, you know, to do that. And it's, and it may not be something that happens overnight, you know?

So a lot of this is us understanding that there's no easy bullet. We've been programmed for any number of years to believe something and it may take us a while to get there. Yeah. Well, I think that when you get to the point and hopefully you get there at some point, it might not be at the beginning, but I think when a couple gets to the point where they realize that they really are on the same page and that they're both going into this as a team with their eyes wide open, to me, that's when I realized that our marriage covenant is ours. It's our covenant. It's our agreement.

And we're doing this together. So how is it wrong? It's the pledge we made to each other. And we are caring for one another and we're respecting one another. So I think that was when I finally made my peace with it. Right, right. Yeah. And I think that there's a beautiful thing that you kind of I kind of boiled my you know I talk to people all of the time about faith and about how they feel about their faith and how they translate their faith into this space and you know I say well for me it really boiled down to what do I think it means to be good you know, and that word of good.

And, you know, I was like, well, gosh, I still hold my faith dear. And I still, you know, have all of the things that I believed about the wonder and the creation and all the plan, you know, I'm one of those people that just believes there's always a plan and, and trust that. And I also love people. And for me, if I translate it into those two simple things, what I'm doing in my marriage covenant is loving to us. We're honest. We are forthright. We talk about more things than we ever could have talked about. I know my husband better than I could have ever known him before this.

But we're always loving others. We care about people. We care about how they are. We are very cautious and conscientious about people that we interact with and people that we spend time with because we don't ever want to be a hindrance to them, a hurt to them. And so we're caring about this. And so I think as long as I'm able to hold those two things, it was more important for those rules to be mine instead of someone else's. And I think one way, kind of a way to know whether or not this is where you are is the word expected comes to mind.

Give yourself permission to ask, is this something that I'm expected to do? Or is this something that I really am choosing to do? Because there are so many expectations depending on what role you're playing, whether you're the employee, the mother, the grandmother, the wife, you know, what is society or what is some other entity expecting you to do? And is really, is that what you want to do? And I think if we ask ourselves those questions and where there's a discrepancy there, give yourself permission to explore that a little bit. Yeah. So what's this big word, codependency?

You did a great job pronouncing that one. So codependency is one of those things that I had never heard of and definitely didn't know that I suffered from until I started to work with Catherine. And so I remember it wasn't very long into our work together that she introduced this term to me and said that she thought it was something I should look into, that I definitely probably suffered a little bit from it. And when I looked up the definition, I was like, dang it, I definitely am this. And so it was definitely an eye-opening. And I think the easiest definition is this.

It's this other focused way of seeing things that really puts all of your okayness in other people's okayness. So I felt completely fine and I would have described myself as happy at peace as long as everyone that was in my circle was also happy and at peace. And so it's this like temperature taking where I'm always trying to take my own temperature with someone else. And I can never really get a sense of what healthy is or what good is or what, you know, what's the temperature that I want to be in? What's comfortable? That's the best word.

I could never be comfortable unless I knew everyone else was comfortable too. And their temperature was good, then I could be good. And let me tell you, A, that's exhausting. But B, it really, really doesn't lead to healthy, great relationships. Because there's so much pressure on me. Because guess what? I want to be comfortable. And all these people out here are not doing their job of being at peace and being happy. So what does that mean I have to do? I have to make them be that.

I have to control and manipulate and help when they don't want it and advise them when they don't want to hear my advice and boss them when they don't want to be bossed because I've got to make them be okay so I can be okay. And it is a really, really hard way to live. So you got over that in a couple of days, right? Oh, absolutely. By the time Jeff had talked to me the third time, I was completely cured. The second session with Catherine, I had all of the skills I needed to no longer struggle with that.

I will say that that is something we talk about codependency and there are amazing resources. Um, codependency is a lot like alcohol or narcotics abuse. It has an absolute system that works like that. So, you know, you can go to Codependency Anonymous, and you can go to meetings. And what really great people that have studied this say is that this is actually an addiction to behavior. It's an addiction to a way of being in a relationship with people that really becomes an addiction. It becomes, I can't be okay without making sure other people are okay.

And that's not really different in our brain that I can't be okay without having, you know, a whole bottle of wine every night. It's really a similar thing. And so this is a really difficult thing to get over. It is very hardwired into us, and it is very hard to overcome. But I think also it'll be something I struggle with a little bit forever, but at least I have awareness about it now. And all of those things we talked about in terms of benefits, learning to speak up for myself, having good, you know, communication, being able to realize it's not my job to manage that everyone else is okay.

Help me in every day, you know, not being so codependent. So before we move to your put, ask you to put your coaching hat on, was there any other personal challenge that you wanted to share? um i think that it really will sort of link to what we work with, with seeing challenges with coaches. But I think that Jeff is a great saying and it's that we've only ever gotten in trouble in this when we were too nice. And so I think that is being other focused and taking sort of the thing I just said about codependency and like putting it on everyone.

But the antidote to that, if there was one, would be boundaries. And so I think that we as a couple and we each as individuals were very boundaryless. There's not a lot of benefit to growing up with a really good set of boundaries, which is my limits for other people's behavior and then then my, what's mine to do in terms of emotions, in terms of my thoughts and feelings. And so we both were boundaryless. We just thought that if someone asked you to do some things, you had to say yes, it didn't matter what you wanted.

If someone's having a hard day and they told you that it was your fault, it was your fault. You know, I grew up in, and the biggest thing that you could do was hurt someone's feelings. And so everything that I did was trying not to hurt someone's feelings. And that learning that through boundaries was that, oh my gosh, not only is that the worst thing you can do, but also I can't even hurt someone else's feelings because they have their own brain and their own history and their own emotions that are completely separate from me.

And they create their own feelings based on their history and based on their thoughts and based on their experiences. And so this idea that a lot like you guys, you always say, we're beholden to no one. Well, how you're able to do that is because you have good boundaries. You're able to say, we have to make a choice for ourselves. We can't care if it upsets you. We have to do what's right. We're going to be kind as we tell it to you. And everything that happens after that is not ours to manage, not ours to take care of.

And the reason you do that is because you run into people or you get into situations where people request things from you or they want things from you that you just can't give. And man, if you don't have good boundaries, you're going to struggle with that. I'm going to take a guess as we segue to you putting your coach's hat on. I'm going to guess that one of the challenges that you find with many people might be jealousy. Yes, absolutely. I would say, and actually people come to us with the fear of jealousy before the actual experience of jealousy.

So we see more people who come and say, I'm so worried about being jealous or I'm so concerned this is going to overtake me before they've even actually done enough of anything to experience it. It's such a scary thing for people. And, you know, it's such a funny thing because it's just an emotion. It's just a feeling There's a ton of them And this is the one that really makes people feel like I just won't be able to handle it I won't be able to take my care of myself.

I won't be able to do anything about this And of course i'm going to reference later on that they should go back and listen to the amazing podcast that katherine did with you guys about this. But the other thing I'm going to say is jealousy is not a bad thing. It's just a thing. There's no bad emotions. There's no bad way to feel. Emotions are just our brain telling us information. And so the biggest thing we sit when we talk to people about this challenge of jealousy is, okay, what are you going to do about it? What do you want to do about it? What do you need to do about it?

And I think that that really kind of frees them from how scary it feels when they are like, oh, wait, there's tools for that? Yes, there are. Oh, wait, there's strategies for that? Absolutely. And then it doesn't feel like the boogeyman hiding under their bed. It's like, oh, if I feel that way, first of all, it's perfectly okay. And second, there's something I could do about it. Yeah. And after being with somebody for 29 years, I didn't really have to worry about being rejected.

But now all of a sudden we're in this lifestyle and I'm feeling like I'm 13 years old again and asking somebody to go to the dance with me. So talk about the idea of opening ourselves to rejection. I think that what we do see and I do see people is they come to us maybe before they feel jealousy. They definitely come after they feel rejection. So this is definitely something that surprises people and how deep a wound it can be to be rejected. I do think we get out of the habit of putting ourselves out there, which means risk, and we just are kind of out of practice with it.

And so definitely when you go into a space where you're opening yourself and your marriage to someone else's judgment, yes, I like you. No, I don't. Like you said, Mr. Jones, like they've got a little piece of paper, check one if you like me, check two if you don't. It's scary, but it's hurtful. And rejection is an old wound. You know, it's one of those things when people work with us, they love when we bring up how everything's tied to, you know, old things like their childhood or their youth. And, you know, we just are kind of the same person, just older and all that stuff's still there.

We don't get over anything. We just carry it with us. And rejection is one of those wounds that when we feel it, it tends to reverberate to a lot of other times we've felt it. And it can have a really big impact on us. And it becomes something that we really have to kind of dig in and say, okay, where's this coming from? How old is this? What are you going to do about it? It's going to be probably a fact of your journey if you continue in this. So how can you work on healing that? You know, it makes sense what you said earlier. You know, we're out of practice of being rejected.

I think when you're a kid and you're trying out for teams or, you know, you're in school and you're taking tests and sometimes you do well and sometimes you don't and then you're applying for college, like there all kinds of opportunities. And breaking up with boyfriends or girlfriends, you're rejected a lot. But then you get married, you get into a career path, and things are pretty steady. So you don't have that. And then all of a sudden, here we are back again, 16 years old and trying out for the volleyball team or, you know, whatever it is.

I think, yeah, there's probably an art to emotionally managing that. Absolutely. And sometimes it's twice as bad because I used to think if we got rejected, it wasn't they were rejecting her. It was all me. Sure. Then I felt twice as bad because not only did I get rejected, but I got her rejected at the same time. A lot of people have said, but he's the only one I've ever been with, or we've only been with each other, or what we have together is sacred. And now somebody's talking about giving that up. So what kind of a conversation do you have with couples? Because it's true. Sure. Yeah.

I think it's kind of the inverse too. We talked about how one of the benefits can be seeing your partner in a new role. Well, one of the challenges can be losing sort of this only role that we've played for each other. So whether you met young and you've been each other's only sexual partner, or whether you are just been the only current sexual partner for a long, long time, there's still a specialness that comes with only. And when people step into non-monogamy and they decide to put that aside, people have a lot of feelings about it.

It's really fascinating to dive into people's idea of what makes them special to their partner. And the sessions that we have with people where we really kind of peel back the onion about all of the ways that you are irreplaceable, that you are special, that even in this space where maybe you're not the only sexual partner that your husband or wife has, but there's still a specialness to your partnership with them. And what does that mean? And it's really, really interesting.

So an example of that would be, you know, for Jeff and I, we had been together a long, long time and we've always enjoyed kissing. We would meet couples and they're like, oh, we have a no kissing rule. And we were like, well, bye. And, you know, we were just like, well, why would you, you know, miss out on that fun thing? And that was just our personal preference. And people have lots of preferences and they have lots of rules that are important to them. But that one was one that we were like, no, that's just not going to work for us.

And when we started in this, we, we found that kissing other people was so different. And it was just, it boggled our mind. We're like, wow, how can this be so different across spectrum of people? And what it made us, it made us realize is how incredibly special and intimate and just great that own small part of our sexuality between the two of us was. It, it we opened ourselves up to being no longer the only in a lot of different ways, absolutely. But we still found and still find to this day that only does, they're still sort of favorite. And that favorite part, we still have.

And, you know, we just really were able to kind of hang on to those or cling to those or just love those things that made what we had even more special, even though we were sharing it with other people. I like that. So in other words, if I understood what you guys just said, you experienced something very special that had it not been for your choice to get into non-monogamy, you may have never discovered about each other. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I would say that has happened more times than it has not happened. Like there is something about different that is exciting and fun.

And, man, that's why we're here. We're here for different, but there's also something about different that makes you glad to go home. And that's a beauty thing too. I would share something personal, but I'm going to save it for a snapshot on our next episode. So I think the last thing we wanted to talk about here, Cal, is probably the thing that we get emailed about mostly. As a matter of fact, I got one the other day. He wants to do this, I want to do that. Or he wants to do that, I don't want to do this.

So differences between the partners and what they want out of this, I imagine you see that quite a bit. Yeah, I would definitely say that the number one thing that lands people in either the chair in my office or a Zoom call with me is they don't know what to do with difference. And, you know, it's so funny because we get involved with people and we have marriages and we think that the ways that we're different are so cute. You know, he's an extrovert. She's an introvert. He's a great cook. She's a terrible cook. And we know these things.

Like we are very aware of the ways we are not like our partner. But our brain sort of files those in the not a big deal category. And it really, really files the things that we have gotten on the same page about year after year in the really big deal. So most relationships survive because couples come to agreement on the big things. Are we going to live in a house? Are we going to live in an apartment? Are we going to have children or not have children? How are we going to raise these children? What relationships are we going to have with our parents? Are we going to save money or spend money?

How are we going to celebrate religious holidays and other holidays? All of those things, couples make their success on agreement. And so the brain goes, those are the big deals. And wow, it sure is safe to be the same. And so what happens when people step into the space is that quickly they realize, oh, wow, we have a lot of differences. And some of them are big and some of them are scary. And our brain screams at us that those differences are dangerous.

And so couples will come to us and they will say, you know, he wants to do this where we just go and we just have parties and we meet people and maybe we, you know, have sex with them and maybe we don't and then we never know them again. And I need to make deep relationships. That's a really different way to go about this. And they feel like the way the other person wants to do it is so scary and so dangerous. And the fact that they don't agree is so dangerous for the relationship.

We have people that come in and say, you know, my wife wants to do this now that we've started having a great time every weekend. She wants to spend all her time in this new hobby. But we have kids and we have regular vanilla friends and we have obligations and I don't want to walk away from those. How do we reconcile how different this is? How much money we spend? Where we go? It can go on and on and on. But that is a really hard place for couples who have Thank you. how different this is, how much money we spend, where we go. It can go on and on and on.

But that is a really hard place for couples who have considered themselves successful. And a lot of the reason they thought they were so successful is because they got along and they agreed and that was just how they did life. As we begin to wrap up, before we get to a couple of listener questions.

the first thought that comes to my mind after we've been talking with you, Kel, is I wish we'd have talked to you a long time ago, because so many of the things that you're saying resonate, they make sense, they're things that we can relate to and that people have been through, but I like the way that you contrast this thing that's in front of us, whether we see it's a great, great benefit or a huge challenge to, yeah, but if you look at it on the other side, it can look this way, or there can be a big benefit from that.

Or, you know, you make it seem like this is not insurmountable and other people have done this um so it took us 10 years to get here i'm sure if we would have had some help early on we probably wouldn't have this many podcast episodes out yeah all this content came from challenges yeah but the other thing that i would say as we begin to wrap up is that we've been doing this 10 years and we still face we still are experiencing new benefits and we are still faced with new challenges and so the things that you're talking about the methods and the tools um it's not like you're going to use it one time when you're brand new and put it away and never have to go back to it again.

Yeah. And I think that as people think about benefits and challenges, there's always going to be benefits and challenges. Like done is not, woo, we've got this all figured out. That would be so boring. I think it's seeing challenges as opportunities. What can we learn here? How could we be better here? How could I appreciate this hard place we're going through right now from some future place where I'm looking back on this and going, wow, that was tough, but man, it paid dividends.

I think that's the beauty of this is it gives us an opportunity to, you know, see the beauty and the joy and the sorrow of life and just doing life in a different way that just is a lot more fun. Okay, well, fortunately, we got a couple of questions as we threw out to our community.

So in just a moment after we take a break to refill our glasses, we're going to be back to answer a couple of listener questions and then tell you what we're going to talk about next month with jason okay welcome back i think we're ready to dive into our two questions we are challenged with a he's the gas and she's the brakes dilemma. Will this last forever? How can we each learn how to take our feet off of our respective pedals? Yeah, I love gas brake conversations. They're fabulous. It's a great conversation starter when you meet a couple. Hey, who's the gas and who's the brake?

They usually have a pretty good idea about it. I think we've talked a little bit about this, this idea of one person coming in with a really strong yes and one person coming in with a really strong no. So I think some of it applies to that. But I will say, as humans, we tend to be very pendulum-like. So in other words, the harder that I am holding up my side of the pendulum and not wanting to let it fall, my partner feels like he has to do the exact same thing on the other side. So it's like we get really pushed up against our corners or against our walls.

And we don't want to let go of our pendulum because it's going to swing all the way into our partner. So if I'm the brake, I don't want to let my foot off the brake because I'm afraid that my partner is going to push the gas all the way to the floor and suddenly we're going to be going, you know, 140 miles an hour. And he is so concerned about being the gas because he thinks, well, if I let off the gas, we will never go anywhere. So what I often tell people is what if you both backed away from your side just a little bit?

So what if for a while I wasn't so much of a break and you weren't so much of the gas and we sort of let some of that, I need to hold my side of the world up and you need to hold your side of the world go. And we actually found that we could find somewhere in the middle that would actually work for both of us yeah and i usually tell people i usually would suggest that the person who has the foot on the gas should start to ease off that pedal first um and and then likely what you're going to find is the other person lets off the break. Yeah.

So I think, and I think the other thing is you mentioned, Kel, when you, when you meet another couple and you, it's a, it's an icebreaker question. If I don't hear that answer, I'm a little worried. I'm a little worried if I hear somebody say, we're both a gas or likewise, we're both the break. Yeah. Well, yeah. That'll be interesting encounters with both of those couples. Well, you know, in our relationship, I tend to be the brake and Mr. Jones tends to be the gas. Although you're not a crazy driver. You're a very moderate gas pedal person.

There have been a couple times, and I wonder if you've run into this in any coaching sessions, there have been a couple times where I have surprised Mr. Jones with my lack of braking. Let's just put it that way. Yeah. Those are really interesting sessions when suddenly the person who's been very hesitant runs ahead. And so the person who maybe was the out in front person is suddenly now in the rear. And yeah, that's a different perspective. And it can be really, really scary for that person that's been go. And then suddenly they look and their partner is way off ahead of them.

And that's a little scary. So the first time it happened, I don't know if you know what I'm talking about off the top of your head, but the first time it was a couple that we met and there was just so much easy chemistry. Like they were easy to be around, super confident, happy couple. And there was just this huge comfort level. And I didn't need to have the break on. I assumed Mr. Jones could pick up on that. And so without a lot of dialogue between he and I, I was just ready to move forward. And he's like, wait a minute, this isn't how it works.

Yeah, it freaked me out a little bit because I'm expecting the break and I get the gas in it. And it takes me by surprise a little bit. And I thought he was going to be proud of me. Yeah, of course. You know, look at me. So then we had that to deal with, you know. Yeah. And I think what you just highlighted, Ms. Stones, is a really great thing of why you could let off the break. That's another really great conversation that we have when people come and ask this question is, have you turned to your partner and said, why do you feel like you need to be the break?

You know, what are you scared that I won't break for? Why do you have to be, you know, it's like when our kids learn to drive and they're in that like student teacher driving, there's a break for the teacher and a break for the kid. And it's like, you know, we both have breaks and we both have gas. And I think it's an interesting question of do you trust me as the gas that I also actually have a break and I will use it if I need to, if I think it would protect us, if I think it'll protect you. And I think that can be a really beautiful conversation for couples to have.

Question number two, we are fairly new to non-monogamy and have recently hit it off splendidly with another couple. Our challenge is that two of the four of us, us ladies, want to consider being exclusive and the guys are more hesitant and want to play the field. Any thoughts on how we should proceed? So I think this is another place where more words are probably going to be needed. You know, I love to ask a really curious why. And so for me, it would be why both of them feel that way.

You know, probably, I hope, if they haven't already, that they both as couples got into this with a really good idea of what they wanted, what they didn't want, and what their goals were. And so I think if they go back to that original intention, they might find that what they wanted, maybe was safety, maybe was connection, maybe was ease, you know, gosh, I want to find people that it's Thank you. think if they go back to that original intention, they might find that what they wanted, maybe was safety, maybe was connection, maybe was ease, you know, gosh, I want to find people that it's easy.

But maybe they also wanted adventure, and they wanted novelty, and they wanted new, and they wanted all of those things. So I think that it's really important to consider what both parts of each of these couples, because it's two couples, so there's two entities there, what all four people really wanted out of this experience. And so if it's safety that these ladies are finding, or if it's comfort, those are amazing, great things. But they can be a little bit opposite of adventure and novelty. And so we really have to just sit down and say, what are our goals now? Have our goals changed?

They said at the beginning, they're fairly new. Well, they haven't had a lot of experiences to figure out where they're going and what else is out there. And so it's really just about why. Why are we doing this? And so I think that would be where I would probably point them in is why are each of you in this? And is this relationship meeting those whys? Is it giving you what you want? Is it keeping you safe from things you don't want and just explore from there? The word that you use that we keep hearing over and over again is why.

And again, we get so many emails and my reply is, did you ask why? you know what the reason we don't ask why it's the same reason maybe we don't want to go to the doctor you know we have this fear that if i ask if there's anything wrong you're going to tell me that there's something right and and if i ask you why and you say because you have feelings that's a scary thing if i ask you why and you're going to tell me because he's better at something, that's a scary thing. So I think a lot of times people avoid the why. But what you're saying is, sorry, bud, this is the way through this.

You each have to ask each other why. And there's no really simple turnkey, black and white answer to this question. It's something that you all have to work through by, but asking that question wise is a good start. So speaking of answers to all of our questions, I love how in our community, Expansive Connection is so good at sharing resources for whatever the topic of the day might be.

So do you have an, and we'll, anything that you're going to share with us tonight, I'll be sure to put in the show notes of the podcast too, but any resources based on what we've talked about tonight that you want to refer people to? Absolutely. Um, this episode, I just have three podcasts that we'll put in the show notes that I think are really great for people to go and listen to, um, to get Of course, you guys' We Got a Thing, episode 33, that we're talking about here about how deep is our love, as Ms.

Jones said, and all the benefits you guys talked about and expounded on much more than we did. I also think that talking about one of the biggest challenges in jealousy, go back and listen to We Got a Thing, episode 41, where Catherine really, really talks about the struggles with jealousy. She also dives into a lot of emotional management there. She even talks about a little bit of boundary work. It's a great episode with a lot of really great tools and tips. The last one is a podcast called Sex and Psychology. And Episode 215 is about dealing with differences in non-monogamy.

And it's a totally different take on what I talked about, but it's really a great lesson about how difference shows up and what difference is, and then how we can kind of have some strategies to talk about those differences. Okay, and we'll have those in the show notes. Next month, by the way, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you. Yeah, really excited about doing this. And now that we've got one under our belt, I even feel more excited about it. But next month from Expansive Connection, it's Jason's turn.

And we will be talking about the idea that, you know what, if you haven't figured it out through this episode, non-monogamy is hard work. How much are you willing to pay? So if anyone out there listening has questions or one or two questions that we'll try to answer on that episode, again, the topic is non-monogamy is hard work. How much are you willing to pay? So expansive connection, where can people learn about expansive connection? Absolutely. You can find us on our website, which is just expansiveconnection.com. I really encourage everyone to connect with us there.

We will add you to our newsletter. We send a weekly newsletter out that has amazing resources. It has where we are, where you can find us, events we're going to, things that are happening that we want to share with you. So it's free every week. We send it and it's a wealth of information about us. And of course, you can find us in the We Gotta Think community. We're really pleased to be one of the trusted partners there as well. Yes.

And if you can't remember expansive connection.com, if you go to, we got a thing.com and go to places we recommend, you can find expansive connection as a link from our podcast. And of course, yes, expansive connection is in our community. And we're really excited about that.

If they want to contact you, Kel, or if they want to contact somebody from expansive connection um is it the website they're going to go to they can or they can email us at connect at expansive connection.com and what about social media where are you guys we're on instagram so they can find us there and just yeah look for us for expansive connection we're there great um a lot of fun that and by the way thanks for making the trip absolutely face to We are here in person. It's so lot of fun. And by the way, thanks for making the trip to do this face-to-face. Absolutely. We are here in person.

It's so much more fun. It is more fun. We're here in person. We're thrilled. We appreciate it. And maybe next time we'll just make this a habit. We appreciate that. So, thanks for listening. We are Mr. and Mrs. Jones. And I'm Kel. And we got a thing. What's your thing? We'll see you next time.