BONUS Episode 6: Our Conversation with Cooper Beckett

Transcript

This podcast contains explicit language and is for mature audiences only. If you're under 18, this show is intended more for your parents. So, take that mental image with you and get back to doing your homework. We are a couple choosing to share our personal experiences and opinions that should in no way be misconstrued as professional advice. Hello everyone, I'm Mr. Jones and I'm Mrs. Jones and together we are the hosts of the We Got a Thing podcast. We are in the Mid-Atlantic area and we just started podcasting a few months ago.

We are going to stray a little bit from our normal format today as we have an opportunity to have a conversation with Cooper Beckett. And Cooper is, well, we'll introduce him when we get to that segment, but we're just excited that he's able to, you know, join us and have a conversation about his new book. As we have entered into lifestyle over the last year, we have really relied on podcasts and books and other forms of research to help us learn about what a healthy relationship and the lifestyle looks like.

And of course, Cooper's podcast, Life on the Swing Set has been an integral part of that. And some of the books we have read have really kind of been a disappointment. There's a lot of good podcasts out there that we've been able to find that resonate with us. But the books are kind of hit or miss. And Cooper Beckett has just put out a new book about a month ago. And it's called My Life on the Swing Set. And this book has really been an eye opener for Mr. Jones and I.

He chronicles his adventures in the lifestyle, both the good and the bad and the ugly and the positive throughout the five years that he has been in the lifestyle. And, um, some of the, the chapters have been really, um, home runs for Mr. Jones and I, as far as our takeaways from them, it's like we could have almost written it about ourselves. So we are just so excited to be able to talk to him today. Right. And podcasting in general, I mean, because this is, you know, we're using the term normal now for being in a lifestyle. We've come a long way in a year, honey. Yeah, I know.

But Cooper and other podcasters that we've listened to over the past year or two have really helped us to understand what a healthy relationship looks like. Whatever your flavor is and however you come into this, it's just good to have kind of pioneers around who have helped to clear the way, smooth the path over for us a bit as we've started our podcast and made it easier for us to follow along. So without further ado, here's our conversation with Cooper Beckett of Life on the Swing Set. Okay, well, welcome everybody. This is Mr. and Mrs.

Jones from the We Got a Thing podcast, and we have a bit of a special treat today. We are talking with Cooper Beckett, who really probably needs no introduction, but I'm going to try to do that anyway. It's always good to remind people. Yes, it is. Cooper is the founder and host of Life on the Swing Set. And I think, if I'm correct, about five years you've been podcasting. Yeah, it's five years on March 4th. Okay, and approaching episode number 200, I think.

Five years and episode 200 on march 4th excellent congratulations we had uh we realized that it was going to be very close and so i don't if people listen to our show they'll notice a few just like extra episodes sort of got stuck in uh-huh to fudge the numbers enough to make those happen on the same day right to sync everything yeah got it yeah because i i couldn't pass up an opportunity for that type of synchronicity right that's good marketing yeah yeah and so cooper um is a board gamer a web designer and now an author and i think one of the more interesting things cooper is is you're a knitter i am a knitter yeah i've knit uh i really just knit scarves because i'm not a talented knitter.

I totally get that. I crochet, and I can do an afghan because that's just like a big scarf. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but that's about the limit of my capabilities. The nice thing, especially I prefer tube scarves, so you knit in the round. Oh, yeah. It doubles the thickness and weight, and all you do is just start knitting you never even have to flip it around if you don't change colors you just keep going until it's long enough that's it I mean it's the simplest thing in the world well I don't know I think you have to have a lot of patience I try to watch Mrs.

Jones do that every once in a while and it just drives me but i i admire you for i actually i find it incredibly soothing though i i've decided to do uh the dude sweater from big lebowski and uh it's really challenging because i have to knit and purl and i have to change colors and i have to go to different gauges so i can't't just zone out while I'm knitting. I actually have to pay attention to the knitting. And I'm not sure that I enjoy that as much. Yeah. So anyway, Cooper, you have a lot of great quotes. And I'm not, I don't know if I can attribute this to you, but I'm going to.

So, you know, the one thing that... I'll be honest. I'll tell you if I said it i said it or not okay well that's optional for you but um so you say i believe changing the world one couple at a time yeah and and you know that resonates with us because that's one of the reasons why we started to podcast ourselves and so you know to be able to um a lot of times today i think with the media and with with society, we're trying to blanket cover so many large groups of people.

And really, if we're going to make a difference, I really tend to agree with that quote of changing the world one couple at a time. So we want to talk about this book, My Life on the Swing Set, that you just released at the beginning of last month, I believe, right? The beginning of January? January 6th, yeah. Yeah. I mean, this whole idea of personal digital publishing and podcasting, and I'm not sure if this is a word, but I like to think of it as like an individuality influence now that we're being able to see.

And I'm just wondering if i can use uh one of your phrases against you this you know this the sense of self essay and this idea of breathing new air and and the fact that this this is the first book that you've done and i'm wondering now that you've had a couple of months to kind of breathe this new, if you might just reflect back and let us know what the last couple of months have been like. It's been a lot more work than I thought.

One of the reasons I did what I did in my first book is a collection of essays from the website is because I was having trouble getting a few of my actual new content books written and I thought well this will be an easy way to get started an easy first book and it turned out that it's actually not that easy to take pre-existing content and fit it into a book that creates a narrative because all these essays, they have overlapping content because they're written.

content and fit it into a book that creates a narrative because all these essays they have overlapping content because they're written over the course of years and so there's it's not just callbacks it's designed to tell someone something who hasn't read the other essays right so immediately when I started putting these together, I realized I needed to do extensive writing work on it and then figure out an order to rearrange it.

And so it became an awful lot more work than I thought it was, but it also became a lot more rewarding experience than just here's a bunch of essays dumped on the internet which i think i was really tempted to just do just compile them and dump them sure but uh as i was working on it i found the narrative and i found the the arc of the story and it really freaked me out at the beginning because i had no idea how to arrange them because chronologically didn't make a lot of sense because they're essentially It really freaked me out at the beginning because I had no idea how to arrange them because chronologically didn't make a lot of sense because there are essays that don't have anything to do with timelines.

And then when I put them in order of blog posts and articles, that didn't make sense. so i finally found this structure when it was suggested i do it in different parts and i came up with the okay the conceptually this part is about being a newbie and this part is about uh opening up more and this part about is is you know the hey we're doing this right and then this part about is you is aftermath-ish. Well, I love that, though, because it allows us to watch your growth. And the growth isn't always linear.

Sometimes you take a step forward, and then you're like, uh-oh, and you have to kind of really back up and rethink it. And maybe that pushes you in a new direction, but you can kind of see that as you work through the essays in the book. I'm glad that came across. And what I found interesting is the essays are pretty extremely out of order. And if you're really, really paying attention to the chronology of what's going on, you can tell that they're out of order.

But I think thematically it works in a narrative structure more so than actual arrangement so all that work and right up until the deadline like I submitted it to Amazon I decided I'm only going to release it as a Kindle at first because Amazon had a great program for releasing a Kindle book, and it locked me in with an exclusivity deal with them for 90 days, so it's exclusive to Amazon until April.

But I wasn't going to worry about other things, and then so you have to submit it seven days before release and i changed it every day i submitted a new and i i sent a message like why have my changes posted and amazon's like well you're really not supposed to be resubmitting it after the this you know you have a seven day lock window right it's like oh i'm didn't know. Yeah, that's why when they say final, that's probably what they mean by final. And then the subtitle, Adventures in Swinging and Polyamory, I came up with that on the day of release at midnight. Oh, gosh.

So I realized, oh, my God, I don't have the word swinging in my title. I don't have the word poly the word polyamory in those are keywords you might want to try to catch i know so how the hell are people going to find this on amazon and so at midnight i had they had locked it so i couldn't change it anymore and then at midnight it gets released and as soon as it got released it unlocked. So I was able to update all the data. Oh, wow. Okay. And I've made a few minor updates. See, as I'm going through, I'm recording the audio book right now.

And as I'm going through and doing that, I'm seeing little grammatical things that I'd like to change. So I'm making minor tweaks. And the cool thing about the way I've published is it's print-on-demand, so there's not a stock somewhere, which means I can upload a PDF, and now every new book has those changes. Yeah, that's cool. And so there have been minor tweaks here and there. And the same thing with EPUB is you upload it, and within 24 hours, it's a new version that people are downloading.

And all of the emotions that come along with this, and you've been through this before with your podcast, but I'm just thinking in my mind, and because we've recently gone through this, is first you're writing it, you're creating it, you're patching it together, you're meeting a deadline, then it's out there. And so then you're marketing and you're watching the downloads and you're talking about an audio version and you're thinking about a hard copy. So all of this is going on at the same time.

So, you know, can you talk about what it was like to be Cooper in Cooper's mind at that point in time?

Well's it's been incredibly um stressful but incredibly rewarding because I mean this book it's it's funny as a podcaster I didn't realize how few people read the website and as a blogger I didn't realize how few people listen to the podcast it's it's like we have two segments of our our audience and getting them to cross over is actually surprisingly difficult because people who read articles are likely to read them in a feed reader and you know they're they're reading them on their um well they're reading them on the toilet you know when they're when they're sitting there and taking a moment and people who listen to podcasts are listening to them on their commute or while they're exercising and so they're not reading it's the same thing like i i get irritated when i see something that looks like hey this sounds like a great read and i get a video instead right it's just like well i'm not going to watch that because i'm at work and i can't watch a video but i can read something and no one knows yeah so there's that disconnect between the two of them so i realized as i was writing this know, I'm used to people knowing a lot about me when I don't know a lot about them because I'm very open on the podcast.

So when I try to tell someone something who's a listener, they're like, oh, yeah, we know. It's like, oh, right, you're one of those people. Okay. Well, tell me what you don't know and I'll tell you something new. But I didn't realize that people who, even people who do read my work, probably haven't been reading for multiple years, probably haven't read all of it. So it felt like old information that I was giving them. But at the same time, it's brand new information for most people. Right. And putting it together in this semi-memoir format, it really changed it.

So I started to get a little nervous about that because it is, the book is like a vivisection. It's here, take a look at my insides while i'm still here to watch you looking at my insides right and it got really intense when people started responding to it because you know i thought people would like it i had no idea the the level of connection people would have to it. And I mean, it more than blew me away. It actually made me, it's made me question. It's like, okay, now you're not just saying that, right? You're not just telling me what I want to hear. Right. That's awesome.

And I think, you know, what spoke to me is because it was written over a period of time time a lot of times when you get professional advice or you're you're educated by a professional or you're reading a book it's somebody that's really in the future of where you are thinking back but they're coming from a different perspective the way that you wrote your and compiled all of this when we hear something that happened five years ago you wrote it five years ago and so you're better better able to connect with me because that's where i am today and it's not really filtered through future cooper it's really you know real time cooper and i i know people don't plan to do that because that's like you know why would i take five to ten years to write something i want to You know, so the way that it came together, I think, maybe is a part of that connection that you're getting along the whole chain of people in a relationship or in a lifestyle like this.

Right, because people knew like us. I mean, we can relate to where you were at the beginning, and now we can, you know, read some of your more current essays and see how far you've come. And then we know that, okay, there was hope. Sometimes you just have to push through this or just, you know, sometimes like, um, in a, one of your essays you were talking about, it was the one about Zen and about just letting it happen.

You know, and I, and I just think that, um, that, that really spoke to us because, you know, when you have limited time to get out there on dates, you just, you just want it to happen. And sometimes you just can't make it happen. Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I made a conscious effort as I was reworking the essays to, I was changing, um, content, but not intent.

so when i wrote the essay i felt this way and so everything i was changing for clarification purposes for grammatical purposes it was with the i'm preserving exactly where this essay came from and what this essay said but but I might change how it's being said. So it was actually a process of putting myself back to that moment, remembering how that was feeling. And I was able to even elaborate on those feelings, but still not change what it was about. right so why don't't we get into some of the questions we have around the chapters that we read. Yes, please.

And, you know, one of the things that struck me that, you know, from greetings from the deep end, it's good to be me. You know, I remember the first time that I saw Mrs. Jones with another woman, And it, and it wasn't, it wasn't, it's good to be me that came to mind. But when that's exactly what I was thinking at this point in time, like somebody's transported me into another area that I had no clue that I would ever be in. And right about now, it's just good to be me. And, and how the hell did this happen?

I mean, you know, so around that, I guess, you know, the other thing that you mentioned there is so many people have poor monogamous relationships. And we've experienced that a lot in our vanilla lives that you can kind of look at a couple that's been together for a while and they just don't seem to get it.

They don't seem to happy and I'm wondering how do you start a conversation with somebody around that when you have that observation and not come across as being I've got something that you don't have it's really hard and I was really bad at it at the beginning because you you tend to be evangelical, like severely severely evangelical when you first discover something that works better than what you've been doing you know and it's it's great to be able to get to a point where you can mention how your relationship works and not mention how they should be doing it, you know, because that's really the key to not being the douchebag non-monogamous person who's just like, hey, you know what?

You should have an open relationship. Right, exactly. Unless that person is coming to you with the request for advice. It's like, look, this is where I'm at. This is how I'm feeling. This is how we're interacting. Then you can say, absolutely.

Well, you might want to ask for this type of opening up because that might solve your specific issue but it definitely has to be your specific thing makes sense you know you don't want to you don't want to just throw out non-monogamy as the solution to any problem right because you know then you're just a dick right i think um in the in the why we swing essay you know you you mentioned something about you know, then you're just a dick. Right. I think in the Why We Swing essay, you know, you mentioned something about, you know, you were talking about why everybody swings.

And it's different for everybody. But one thing that you wrote really resonated with us. And you said, we swing because it allows us to see the best in each other and to see why other people find us attractive. And I think we were having a conversation one night and I kept asking Mr.

Jones why he wanted to swing I mean he he kept saying you know I want to watch you with other people because that brings me pleasure when you're experiencing pleasure and um I and I think I I kept thinking that that was kind of a cop-out on his part um but when you put it the way you did about being able to see the best in each other that's really cool i really really like that well it's it's great because you forget you know monogamy has this way of stripping out your memory of beginning dating this person and it's just the factor of time which changes how you interact because everything streamlines over time you I don't know.

And it's just the factor of time which changes how you interact because everything streamlines over time. You know, conversation streamlines, sexuality streamlines, your romanticism streamlines. And it can streamline to a point where it's almost nonexistent anymore.

And you start to think, well, well she finds me attractive that's just the way things are but this other person this is why affairs happen this other person finds me attractive like real attraction you know my my wife finds me attractive because you know we're married and that's what it but wow and it's it's being able to recognize that the feelings haven't changed I'll see muted by time. Right.

And so when you see someone really find your, your partner attractive, then you can look at that and be like, well, my God, like I, uh, he finds her attractive and he's a good looking guy and I find her attractive. She must really be, you well, my God, he finds her attractive and he's a good-looking guy and I find her attractive. She must really be, you know, like you get to see that new impression. And when you find those people who are just like, man, you're a lucky guy, you're a lucky woman, then you get that, wow, yeah, I am a lucky guy. I know.

And I think it's the coolest thing that i can watch this beautiful woman flirting with my husband and say yep that's my guy he's pretty good isn't he yeah that that person is coming home with me that's right that's right yeah and we've been married 30 years and so congratulations yeah thanks and so when when i see mrs see Mrs. Jones in another situation, interacting with another man or another woman, there are things that I learn about her after 30 years. You know, you would think that after 30 years, you know, good grief, you got to know everything about each other.

But what this lifestyle has done and what this particular quote really means to me is I'm seeing Mrs. Jones in a different light. So it's everything that you just mentioned, but it's also, I'm discovering new things about her that I didn't know before. And that just enriches our relationship so much more. Yeah. Well, that's the, that's the beauty of, uh, non-monogamy is it of, by virtue of not being able to get stale, because it can't, because there's always new, you can discover all these things. You know, without non-monogamy, I never would have looked into BDSM, neither.

You know, you know, I wouldn't have explored my bisexuality until it built to a point where I could no longer contain it and probably would cheat that would have been it and being in this lifestyle it's just being around people that are so open-minded it gives you permission to think about things that used to be so incredibly taboo because now you can actually openly and frankly talk with people about it and you don't feel ashamed or weird.

And to me, that's one of the most amazing surprises from being in the lifestyle is just the friendships and the conversations that we can have with people that we can't have with friends that we've been friends with for years and years and years. And that's the funny thing. I think that's one of the things that you want to talk about vanillas and have it not be a dirty word, but that vanilla people are missing is the ability to have real conversations with each other.

I think most vanilla couples have very very um surface conversations with other vanilla couples and i think a lot of that is because there's an ongoing sexual tension that you just can't talk about right if you are if if there's four attractive people two, regardless of how everybody feels about their partner, odds are they're also going to be attracted to the corresponding person on the other side and possibly to the other person on the other side. So you can't mention that without it being weird in, quote, polite society. Yes.

And without it being, OK, okay well now we can't hang out with the johnsons anymore because they said you're hot right and that's weird bullshit and by you know it's it's one of the oddest things that swinging opened up was the ability to have really legitimate conversations about sexuality and attraction with other people that you're actually interested in even if you're not going to do anything with them right you can still have these conversations right you know what i'm thinking of right now cooper is um and i know you love this place i'm thinking about all the conversations we have around the pool and in the hot tub at Desire.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That is a place where you can talk to anybody about anything, and it's just the most amazing environment. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason that I go every year. There's a reason that I will try to never miss a year at Desire for the rest of my life. Yes, we spend a lot of time there, too. We've been there three times, and actually we're going to go back in June again. And, you know, it is truly like going home, and it's hard to describe.

You can look at a website and look at the amenities, and, you know, until you're there and you experience that environment, it's really hard to describe. But really, it comes close to being this nirvana of an environment that, boy, if you could capture that and bring it home and bring it and have people sit in the middle of that and look around, that would be the best way, I think, to get people to kind of open their minds a little bit and understand what this is all about.

And I think it has – I think it's a lot – to me, it's people describe burning man is i'm not a burner i've never been to burning man i don't really think it's my scene but from everything i've talked to people who do go to burning man they describe it as we spend the year trying to figure out how emotionally to get back to that place yeah that when we go back to that place, it is home. And then we come home and we try, how can we bring that place to our home? And desire is just like that.

It's how can we recapture this indescribable environment, this indescribable connection the rest of the year because it almost hurts when you can't be there i know the whole sliding glass door thing yeah it brought a tear to my eye when i read that it's awful walk of shame the walk of shame with your normal clothes on the morning you have to leave. Oh, yeah. That putting my jeans back on, because I don't wear those the whole time. I know. Oh, my God. It hurts. It does. So I wanted to ask you about, back to the first breath of new air can cause panic in the sense of self-ess Yeah.

Um, Hey, let me, does it get any better? Does it ever get better? Or do you, you know, do we have to experience that? Uh, you know, I think what I'm asking is, um, you know, it is, it is a little bit scary, but once you go through it a few times and it starts to become familiar. Um, so does that sense of panic, um, ever get a little bit easier? I don't know. I'm a panicky guy. I tend to freak out every time I try something new. I tend to freak out when I'm doing something that I've done before. So maybe, probably for normal people, it does. Not for me. Right, okay.

No, I get that because we tend to err on the side of caution because we don't want to have to experience that panic.

So I don't know that we've actually ever really missed an opportunity, but we know know what that feeling of panic feels like and it doesn't always feel very good no i will reward is worth the risk but what you have to do is just start ignoring it yeah i'm i've never see that's what it is it is there all the time but you can just pretend it's not right and do the things and then the things are amazing and they are amazing it's um it's like for me the the approach and talking to someone new is incredibly difficult for me and i do really well at a place like desire where everybody around me is there because i have a podcast and hey they probably want to talk to me so i don't have to worry about approaching people because odds are they would be interested in having at least a five-minute conversation with me if not uh you know rim jobs yeah you know mrs jones accuses me of overthinking a lot too so Ha ha ha the difference cooper um because i'm an overthinker as well but so where is that line between you know kind of overthinking and reflecting?

And is this another question that you can't really answer? I don't think you can answer that question either, honey. Okay. Well, I think overthinking tends to be in the negative portion. Reflection is about learning. Reflection is about learning from the way you interacted with people. Overthinking is about doubting the way you interacted with people. Good. I like that. Yeah, that's good. And so, I mean, reflection is wonderful. And it is some of the best things you can do. You sitting back and looking at a new experience and why did it work and why did it not.

You know, I got, I asked for a phone number without being weird for the first time in my life on Wednesday. You know, I always dance around it and be jokey and be weird about it because I'm not comfortable just being like, hey, you attractive i'd like to call you right and i did that for the first time unfortunately uh she is monogamous and actually apologized for being monogamous because she was so into it you know uh and and it's like well okay can can i can i still be your friend? Is that cool? She's like, oh, yeah, absolutely. But it was – I don't know how I'm doing it.

I can't explain how it's changing. I don't know how the confidence works enough to explain it. But's it's a there's nothing nothing bad will happen to you by asking for what you want right if the worst thing that'll happen to you is no no thank you that's not bad that's just you didn't get what you want this time and i don't know why it's so difficult to understand that not getting what you want isn't uh this horrible thing why a no isn't a horrible thing um but i'm afraid that that box is going to have a dead cat under it. That's the problem.

If if a horrible thing um but i'm afraid that that box is going to have a dead cat under it that's the problem you know if if it does you move on to the next box right right and that's that's the recognition it's that's it because that's all it takes and when you start asking it does get easier i no doubt right and then on the other end of it, it gets easier telling people, honestly, no, thank you as well. Yeah. And I'm the type of person where I'm overly considerate. And it's very, very difficult for me to say, you know what, I really appreciate you. You're really attractive.

But, you know, there's just the spark or the chemistry is not there. And at first, you know, you struggle because I have to reply because I don't want to leave people hanging. Right. You know, so I think I'm getting a little bit better. Right, Mrs. Jones? Yes, you are. throw me a And at first, I, you know, you struggle because I have to reply because I don't want to leave people hanging. Right. You know, so I'm, I think I'm getting a little bit better. Right, Mrs. Jones? Yes, you are. You're going to throw me a bone there. No. Yeah, you're doing much better. Okay. So.

So the last thing I wanted to ask you about, Cooper, was your kissy face chapter. Okay. Making out. Yeah, it's funny because I read this chapter after having three dates in a row with couples that have a no kissing rule. Oh, man. Oh, man. It's been rough. It's been rough because we do not have a no kissing rule. And kissing is very important to both of us.

I'm probably very hard on the people who have the no kissing rule simply because i don't understand it at all yeah we don't either you know i i and i don't mind saying that i don't understand how kissing is more intimate than oral sex i don't understand it it doesn't make sense to me and i mean I mean, because it's the same thing, isn't it, with sex? You're saying that I'm able to disconnect this from love, right? Right. So how are you not able to disconnect kissing from love when kissing is such a light impact thing? Right.

Well, it's a light impact thing, But like for me, it's a very important thing. That's kind of how I kind of get my motor going. And when I can't do that, then I start doubting myself. You know, well, am I allowed to kiss his neck? Am I allowed to nibble on his ear? Or is she, you know, and then the bottom line is I begin to wonder if the woman even trusts me at all with her partner. And then that just doesn't really help my libido at all at that point. I have noticed that the people who have the no kissing policy are pretty new or have major jealousy issues.

Do you like that sweeping statement that I just made? Well, yeah. If any of your listeners who are upset about that can just contact me directly. Because seriously, that's, it's, I don't, I'm going to stop making broad generalizations. It's something I think that should be really, really seriously reflected on why that is a deal breaker for you. Right. And question your motives on why that is. And I think that should be true of anything that is a hard no. You know, some things absolutely, like bareback sex. Right.

That's a hard no for me with my partner in my swinging situation, but it's a hard no for these very legitimate reasons.

And because I can reflect on my rules and say, okay, well, I am protecting from these things which have the potential to impact me in this way that's i i feel legitimate about that and i feel legitimate about the oh okay please don't call this person sweetie because that's a relationship thing that we do you know i i get that i don't get the kissing thing at all no i don't either yeah i don't i don't think we can solve that one here i would like to think that you know by the time we're ready to play with a couple they would have been able to observe mr jones and i enough to know that they have nothing to worry about that the intimacy that we're going to share with our partner from kissing them is in no way going to interfere into their relationship or do anything to separate our relationship.

It's just part of, of having fun and, and making that, I guess emotional is not the right word, but to make that connection with the person that you can actually enjoy the sexual experience you're getting ready to have with them. Yeah. So Cooper, we, we know where we appreciate you taking the time. I'm happy to continue. Okay. We're going to go a different direction. But before we leave the topic of your book, I just want to say congratulations on the book. Thank you. You know, we both really enjoyed it. Yes. And we highly recommend it to people in all stages of swinging.

You know, it's great for new couples. It's good for couples that have been around the block for a while. And some of these foundational building blocks that you draw out don't even necessarily have to apply to the topic of monogamy or non-monogamy.

I mean, when you're talking about exploring and changing your perception and communication and risk-taking and relationship building those are fundamental building blocks of like society and humanity so well that's why i think i think non-monogamy has made me a better person and it wasn't that i was a bad person before but i i have been very self-centered i have been the bad friend in the past and opening up Thank you. for. But I have been very self-centered. I have been the bad friend in the past. And opening up, non-monogamy is not responsible for me now being a great person.

Non-monogamy is responsible for me being better at empathy, being better at communication, and being better at asking for what I want so I don't become the guy who doesn't get what I want and just sulks all day and is a bad friend. Right, exactly. And for somebody who's been married 30 years, you know, you get to a point and you think you got it figured out. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you, non-monogamy has just, you know, I keep saying, oh my gosh, I thought I was a good communicator. But, you know, now we're taking this to a new level.

So we certainly hear, you know, even after all this time, we're seeing that, you know, and that's how I think it's easy for people to kind of fall into this sense of, like, I think I'm happy, or, you know, I'm just going to coast through the rest of my life because I've got these things that I've collected. But, you know, us taking this chance and this risk and this step at this point in our relationship has been wonderful because it's just renewed everything in your book and your podcast and other podcasts that we've listened to have really made a difference in that.

So just wanted to say, you know, just a personal thank you for that as well. Oh, man, my pleasure. And so here's a—let me give you a philosophical question to chew on here. Okay, hit me. I'm ready.

Okay, so where does Cooper Beckett or non-monogamy—in five years from now, what are things going to look like in your world and in the world of non-monogamy, do you think i i think you know non-monogamy is on a really really strong solid boost right now the the news media is covering the idea of monogamy is passe marriage is changing and you know dan savage is getting a network television series it's it's becoming more obvious to people that the boxes don't fit everyone and that is what will allow us to change because that is what we need as a society is to realize that all these boxes all I love you.

That is what will allow us to change because that is what we need as a society is to realize that all these boxes, all these assumptions we've made are correct for some people, but not most people. And I think the LGBT movement has been really pushing that door open as well because we're seeing varied interests. We're seeing trans people learning about themselves and defining who they are, some for the first time ever. And it's really a beautiful time to see the evolution of relationships and marriage.

And what's funny is the media is still trotting out this weird concept of marriage where 50 ends in divorce but that's hasn't been true for a decade the divorce rate is actually falling what's been changing is people are getting married less and less so people who are getting married are doing it for better reasons but people are recognizing that they should actually explore it first and determine what they want in life more so than they used to because people are starting to think for themselves beyond the societal conventions you know and that may be an overly optimistic view of what's happening and there's obviously still shit everywhere but i think really we're on a trajectory that it won't be uncommon in five years to know people in polyamorous relationships.

I think swingers are going to stay underground. The classic swingers are going to stay underground. But I do think that people in open relationships in a broadly defined amalgam of swinging and poly, excuse me, which is how I practice. I, I don't, I don't, um, I don't think they're going to, there's going to be nearly the stigma in five years that there is right now. And I think a lot of that is people are really embracing their need to talk about it. You know, look at all the swinging podcasts. It's amazing because what, you know, I'm going to guess for you two.

You listened to swinging podcasts. You discovered swinging. And you thought, hey, we should talk about this. Right. Yeah. Because that's what happened to me. And that's what happened to every other swinging podcaster I know.

And that's what happened to me and that's what happened to every other swinging podcaster i know and that's what happened to everybody writing books about swinging that i know it's because we want to share this cool thing right and the more people that are sharing this cool thing will be get more people sharing this cool thing which will mean awareness is built because that's what we need more than anything else in non-monogamy is awareness and to not fight with each other you know the poly people and when you hear somebody you know like you you can tell you're a highly intelligent person and you just well of course i'm gonna say that no i'm kidding But, you know, you listen to these podcasts, and they're like normal people that have this extracurricular part of their lives, and it makes it seem less taboo, less weird.

And that's what the world needs. I don't think general society understands what it's really about. They need to see that we're not unusual. Right. You i think 50 shades of gray is an interesting flashpoint for open discussion of sexuality because on one hand it's putting concepts like anal fisting and butt plugs into the heads of mainstream America who have likely never heard the words anal fisting in a film ever. So that's awesome because what that's doing is it's putting the germ in. The seed is there. And for some people, that's going to grow. Not for everybody.

obviously it's it's putting the germ in the seed is there and for some people that's going to grow not for everybody obviously it's just it's it's not going to change the world but that one aspect is these people are then going to go to other people and ask questions right and the more normalcy can come out with it you know because christian gray is douchebag incarnate here uh he's not normal guy who's into this thing right and normal girl in this movie is trying to change him back to normal guy. So we need to show normalcy. Because when we do, it's really hard to discount us.

And that's the value of opening up and coming out of the closet. I recently told my parents about what I do. Yes. And my parents have decided we're not going to talk about it, which is fine because we don't need to talk about it. But the next time that comes up in conversation amongst their social circle, they're unlikely to make broad sweeping judgments about it because they know me and they know I am pretty normal. Exactly. My siblings know about it. So when they hear about their friends doing these things, it's less likely to be judgmental because I do these things. Right.

And I think we're hoping that, and we just saw it last night, and Mrs. Jones read the books. She read all three of them, and then she convinced me to go read the three of them so that we would be able to talk about that, and we did.

And then we just saw the film last night, and I think what I'm hoping is that your comment about opening the opportunity for a conversation, you know, I hope that people that are in the lifestyle or non-monogamous will not be too harsh or judgmental on people who still don't get it, but use it as an opportunity to inch the conversation forward a little bit in a genuine way so that when you come across somebody, you don't have to beat them up and say, and be holier than thou, but maybe come across and say, well, you know what, let's talk about that. And what does that really mean?

And, you know, I thought about that when we left the theater last night. I mean, I felt strange because when we got up to leave, I would say that the ratio were probably about 80%, 85% women to, to men. And there were clusters of women sitting together. And, and I walked out scratching my head thinking, what sort of relationship is at home when these clusters of ladies, you know, and it may not be a bad thing, but it was just an observation of where potential relationships are and where potential conversations could be had, starting with the point of Fifty Shades. Oh, I fully agree.

And I think it's been it's been rather detrimental how a lot of our bloggers have approached it because they're so quick to just say oh my god and you know i i think it's a piece of trash in general you know the writing is incredibly poor and as a film it doesn't hold up i'm a film guy and as a film that is poorly constructed it's it was good to look at i will give it that but what they've been doing is they're they're so negative about it that people who want to talk more are not going to and so really the really smart blogging, the really smart sex toy store move is what I've seen them doing, which is say, hey, you liked Fifty Shades of Grey?

Let's talk about that. Right. And, you know, the book Fifty Shades almost single-handedly saved brick-and-mortar sex toy stores in America. So if nothing else, we can thank E.L. James for revitalizing our wonderful sex toy stores because they were hurting hard from the recession. And then this book came. And then people started talking about it. Right. And so, you know, E.L.

James, not to compare her to you, but still, you have somebody, you know, somebody had a, some individual had a message, did not go through a traditional publishing house and editor staff and, you know, and all the old brick and mortar rules of how you publish a book. And a message gets put out there. And arguably, you know, whether you like a writing style or whether it holds up, the fact that she was able to do that and draw so much attention and the fact that you've been able to do that and going back to what you said about Dan Savage and this momentum that the lifestyle has.

So this vacuum that's being created created how does life on the swing set and how does we got a thing our podcast and and how does and maybe this leads us into the conversation about catalyst con you know how do we galvanize and how do we understand that this opportunity is there and how do we you know kind of come together and and ask and and kind of let's quit the nitpicking between the different genres of non-monogamy and let's look at the bigger picture so you know how do we kind of help get into that vacuum is my question oh man heady um it's it's scary because this is not the first time non-monogamy was a nexus point in society.

You know, in the 70s, non-monogamy was a thing and a thing that a lot of people talked about and did. And I think a lot of that was it was the teenagers of of the 60s grew up and still wanted to embrace that. Unfortunately, something really bad happened, the 80s, and AIDS, and ruined it. I'm really hoping that we as a community can impress the value of what it is we're doing beyond we're fucking each other. Right. Because, you know, that is awesome. And that is why I got into this in the first place. Because I wanted to fuck a lot of people. And I get that.

And that's the thing that the the right wing doesn't understand or they understand it but they don't like it because we shouldn't want to fuck a lot of people we do yeah they won't acknowledge it right exactly or if we want to we should repress that but you know it's it's it sort of reminds me like we have this great momentum and there was a there was something hunter thompson said in fear and loathing where where he was talking about the 60s and the glory of the 60s that we thought our message was so true and our energy was so right that we had the momentum and we were riding the crest of that beautiful wave but hunter thompson's wave rolled back and that terrifies me because it does feel like we're riding this momentum and we're we're seeing society we cracked it it's It's been cracked open, you know, and as these kids who are taking endless nude pictures of themselves on their phones and sending it to everybody, you know, and I'm not in any way judging because I take lots of nude pictures of myself on my phone and send it to people consensuallyually they ask for it i want to make that clear but these these kids are going to grow up and then that's normal you know as as the old guard dies and really that's what it is is we're seeing the last of a generation start dying.

How morbid is this discussion suddenly? No, but it's true. That whole mindset. The younger people are looking at things differently. And that's just the way it is. And I think over the next five to ten years, we're going to see a steep drop in the current conceptual idea of conservatism, a steep drop in the importance of religion in society.

You know, atheism is the fastest growing portion of our population and those those things as they start falling they're going to leave in their wake a whole lot of people searching for meaning and the value of searching for meaning is maybe you get to discover meaning on your own because when you discover what means to you, it has so much more value than somebody telling you this is what should mean something to you. And that's what traditional society and religion has done for us is it's told us what values there are rather than letting us find them. Right.

And that's where we come in because we hope that through examples um, through examples that, um, life on the swing set have started. I mean, for us to start a podcast now was so much easier than it would have been two, three, four, five years ago, because, you know, we, we get out there, people know what a podcast is and the bank cereal. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

And then, so we've been picked up by other, um, you twitter feeds for and other uh podcasters and and so we're we we have an audience out there already we just have to connect into them where before you had to kind of trudge through that and create it so we're hopeful that and you know we're going to try to get to um catalyst con because that looks like a great kind of the beginnings of the the bringing together of of the right sort of thinking and the right sort of people that can kind of galvanize and then and then flow into that vacuum and so we um we're really hoping that we're going to be able to go to that and meet you all i hope so too you know next month and uh we certainly appreciate you taking you know more time than we had asked you Cooper to do this today this was a fun and surprisingly heady discussion for early in the day on a Saturday well I guess there are we're from Washington D.C.

so there's a lot of cynicism and politics in this town so I guess we'll forgive you for being surprised by the heady conversation that might come from the mid-Atlantic part of the country. Well, and I've gone ahead and done my usual thing, which is irritate the religious people, irritate the conservatives. So I feel like I've done my part here. Well, that sounds like a topic for a future conversation. So maybe we'll corral you again in the future I would love to come back Okay, well, Mrs. Jones did you have any...

No, I just appreciate your podcast and your book and just all of the little tidbits that we can pull that really resonate with us as we grow in our relationship and as we try to figure out what direction we want to take our podcast in to help educate and enlighten people. I'm so happy it spoke to you. It's really I don't have to. Thank you. Yeah, that's right.

Because somebody, you you know you need to be able to see the reality of people i think it's so much easier to follow someone who you believe is real and has flaws right right exactly well and the bottom line is that we're all going to make mistakes yeah but you have to just know that that's going to happen and you have to trust in your relationship that you're going to say okay well i guess we won't do that again or that didn't work or and you laugh it off and you dust yourself off and you get up and try something else yeah absolutely well thanks again cooper and um can i can i talk about all the ways to contact me oh i'm sorry absolutely yes okay so if you want to find the book you can find it at my life on the swing set..

So if you want to find the book, you can find it at mylifeontheswingset.com. If you want to find my podcast and our website, it's just lifeontheswingset.com. We have a huge podcast network now that we've just added a number of podcasts to. I think we're up to six right now. Yes, yeah, we've noticed. And it's swingset.fm is the URL for that. You can find my website at coopersbeckett.com You can find me on Twitter at SwingsetLife and on Facebook at facebook.com slash cooper dot Beckett. And they can find you at Desire Resorts in November? Yes, lifeontheswingset.com slash desire.

You should come to Mexico with us because it's amazing. Yes, it is. And we've already got a huge crew coming. Good. What are your dates? We are going from November 7th through the 14th. Now, I'm doubting that last day, so I'm going to just scroll through my calendar. November 7th through the 14th, yes. Okay, great. I might have to be sick that week. Well, what's really cool is J.V. Altharas and Shara from the Ending the Sexual Dark Age podcast. Your editor, yes. One of our favorite podcasts and the editor of my book.

They came for the first time last year to our trip, and they loved it so much they went and booked their own trip that same week, so they've got a block of rooms.

And because of that, we may manage to fill the resort with people who are fans of theirs, who are fans of ours, would just be fantastic we were so close last year that it was it was a lot of people in the remainders of the resort just kind of looking at us like wondering okay who are these people well you know you're you're the episode that you did um and i believe jv may have posted it also the conversation that you all had at the end of your trip um and just hearing people going around you know and and you would think when you have a group of people i don't know how many were there in the hot tub or the pool at that time or wherever you were 20 or 30 but everybody had something very unique to say yeah about and that that testimonial um that that and we listened to that i think i listened to that one twice because we we've had those we've been there we've had those conversations and it's so resonated with us that that's what this is all about so um and we will put all of that information on our show notes and into our into our website and the links too, Cooper, so people can find you that way.

So did we miss anything else, or is that... Oh, if you are going to Catalyst, you can use the promo code SWINGSET to save $10 on your pass. All right, that sounds good for us. That's not bad, hey, that's for you and for your listeners. Okay.

Oh, and i have an audiobook coming right and uh my goal is to have that out in the beginning of spring and i'm not being any more uh exact than that because it turns out an audiobook is also a ridiculous undertaking and despite the fact that i talk a lot um doing that for an audiobook really really wrecks my voice so i can't record more than like a half hour in a in a given session yeah i've heard you read a couple of snippets from your book and and you definitely change into a persona when you do that. Yeah. It's been interesting. So yeah, but then I think that's it.

I think that's all I have. Okay, well thank you very much, Cooper. We really appreciate your time. Oh, it was my pleasure. Alright, take care. You too. Well, wow, that was quite an awesome interview.

We were supposed to have him for about a half an hour and ended up hanging on to him for just a little bit over an hour so it was a great conversation with cooper um what did you think well i'm you know i'm a little starstruck it's just it's so exciting to be able to meet people that have had such an influence on us as we have, you know, learned more about, um, the lifestyle and, and, you know, what we want to take away from it as a couple. And, you know, Cooper just has so many insights and he, you know, he, he kind of makes it sound easy.

I mean, he admits that he screwed up along the way, but, you know, he's learned so much and he, he just has the ability to kind of roll with the punches and and you know take something positive out of every experience that he has um had along the way yeah and you know i'm kind of i mean you know me i'm kind of a cynical person that may not come as a surprise to you and mr jones and cooper beckett have a lot in common i mean especially after talking to cooper today and you know i've i've seen it in print i've heard his podcast but today I'm like oh man I keep looking for reasons not to like the guy but I can't help it yeah I think you're kind of almost looking in the mirror when you listen to him well he's very genuine and um and we were just so flattered that he reached out to us and we were happy to be able to do this so um thank you again Cooper and hope that, um, all of you out there listening to us and maybe some of you for the first time, um, we are Mr.

And Mrs. Jones and we have, um, as we mentioned at the outset, we're the hosts of the, we got a thing podcast. Um, and if you'd like to follow us or, or contact us or listen to us, uh, we have a website, uh, we got a thing.com. And on that website, you'll find all of our podcasts and well, all five of our podcasts. We're getting there. Yeah, we're getting there. And you'll be able to contact us through that website. We're on Twitter at wegotathing. You can contact us through email at wegotathing at gmail.com. We have a Facebook page. You can find us there. We have a Cassidy community.

You can find us there. We also have a phone number listed if you'd like to leave us a voicemail. Or, of course, you can comment right on our website itself. So, again, we're just happy to have been able to do to do this and, um, any clothing, closing thoughts before we sign off here? I just, um, want to thank everybody for listening and, you know, just check out our episodes on the, we got a thing podcast. We, I guess our niche in the community is that we are, um, a couple that's been married for 30 years and we've only been swinging for a year.

So this has been a big shift for us and it's been quite the wild ride. And, you know, we've come a long way, but we've got a lot to learn. And our goal is just to kind of share our experiences with everybody. Yeah, good teaser there, honey. I hope so. So if you want to know more about a couple and why in the world it took us 29 years to get to where we are. Yeah, we're slow learners. Yeah, check us out at wegotathing.com. So anyway, we'll call it a day. And we are Mr. and Mrs. Jones, and we got a thing. What's your thing? We'll see you next time.