Have you ever broken a rule in the Swinging Lifestyle? We did and today we share all about it.
Swinging Rules
The lifestyle is full of rules & boundaries, we put them there more often than not to safeguard our relationship but what happens when you break a rule? Today we’re talking about breaking our #1 swinging rule, we’re going to share the ups and downs, the emotional discussion afterwards and what it means for us moving forward.
We share some exclusive patreon content that we recorded within days after the rule was broken.
Has your partner broken a rule?
We also get Catherine from Expansive Connection Coaching to share some insight into how to move past a rule. Some of the triggers we might have and some support on how to work through the emotions after you or your spouse has broken the rule. Check out Catherine and the entire team at Expansive Connection here https://www.expansiveconnection.com/cnm
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Transcript
you're listening to the wanderlust swingers podcast with aussie hosts kate and darrell if you're curious about exploring your sexuality or the swinging hot wiping and non-monogamous lifestyle you've definitely come to the right podcast or maybe you just love travel adventures either way we share our personal sometimes juicy sexy stories as well as swingers club and reviews, interviews with other sassy people and of course our global swinging adventures. We try to bring you a look into the diverse lifestyle that the swinging and non-monogamous community has. We hope you enjoy.
Now let's get into the episode. Hey guys and welcome back to Wanderlust Swingers. This is episode 143 and this is about a broken rule. Now we're going to hear a lot about our broken rule, what happened, how do we break the rule, what happened afterwards. I'm going to play you some extracts from audio that we recorded a few months ago directly after we broke the rule. I'm going to share some audio from a counsellor, Catherine from Expansive Connection. So we're covering all of that today. And what I mean by broken rule, the swinging lifestyle, of course, it's full of rules and boundaries.
We put them together generally more often than not because we want to safeguard our primary, our core relationship. But what happens when you break that rule? So today we're talking about breaking our number one rule. We're going to share the ups, the downs, the emotional discussion afterwards, and really what it means for us going forward. So I hope you guys will stick around to hear a little bit of insight into sometimes things do go wrong and what happens and how do we work through them. But first, what's news with us?
So we went to Australia over the holiday period, which of course blew up with COVID while we were there and our New Year's plans got cancelled. And so we just ended up spending the night at home singing karaoke with our good friends down there. Daryl went flying, which was fantastic. He actually went flying in Australia and he's been doing a lot of flying in Croatia. In fact, as I record this, Daryl's actually in Slovenia also doing some flying. So there's that for him.
And it's my birthday in like two days, so if you know me, if you've been around me, I have every time it's my birthday, and I don't mean this from an aging perspective. I mean there's probably a little bit of that, let's be fair. But I have a slight breakdown, man, and it has to do with the fact that I reflect back on my last 12 months and I think to myself every year, have I achieved enough? Have I done enough? Have I improved? Have I learned anything new? And it, I don't know.
I mean, we moved to Croatia 12 months ago, just on 12 months ago, and it is been a journey here, which by the way, our journey is coming to an end. The reason that this podcast is slightly delayed and the reason that I just decided to record it without Daryl is because of the fact that we are moving countries again. And this happened so quick. If you are on our Patreon, you know where we're going. We will be announcing it probably in the next episode or the one after that to everybody out there listening. But yeah, we're moving countries again. It happened very quickly.
We got made an offer and we just basically pulled the trigger and said, yes, we're out. So we are in the next four weeks, basically after my trip to the United States in a couple of days, we are moving countries again. So keep a listen for that. That's going to be interesting for us, packing up and shifting again. But first, a little cultural tidbit. Now, the reason our podcast is called Wanderlust Swingers is we like to kind of give you guys an insight into swinging around the world.
And that's great that we're going to move to another country because we kind of get to give you that more insight. And by the way, it is definitely a city full of sin. Let me just tell you that much. Cultural tidbit for Australia. Because we were down in Australia over the holidays, I want to share this with you guys. Currently, it is illegal in Australia to pay sperm donors or to import frozen sperm. There is also a limit of 10 families who can use the sperm from one donor.
This led to such a shortage of donors that the Reproductive Medicine Centre in Aubrey has advertised in Canada, has advertised in a Canadian university student newspaper, which kind of is a bit interesting, but we'll just leave that where it is, offering sperm donors a $7,000 package including return trip accommodation for a fortnight and a daily spending allowance. Sperm. It's a whole thing. That's just, what is happening? So apparently we need some sperm donors going on down in Australia.
Like that just blew my bloody mind um so thank you to all of those canadian uh gentlemen who made their way down into australia and was like fuck yeah i'll go for a holiday like jack off a bit and and uh you know bob's your rani i don't know right now let's talk about the broken rule if you've been listening to us for a while, I mean, we've spoken about rules and boundaries over the years, like when we first started, as they evolved, we kind of went back and spoke about boundaries, I think about a year ago. You know, we've touched on this topic so, so many times, you guys.
So it's hard for me to point out which one to go listen to because there are so many, but just check the titles if you want to kind of go back and have a look at our different progressions I guess through and changes through our rules and our boundaries but essentially we have one rule one rule and then we might have some boundaries like really one hard and fast rule and that is protection and condoms that is our number one rule and that is the rule that we broke we played unprotected in other words we had bareback sex with somebody we fluid bonded with somebody else and we broke that rule for the first time in six years of us being in our swinging lifestyle journey this has never happened to us before and i know that when we're thinking about breaking a rule or when we're thinking about boundaries there's so many what ifs in our mind how am i going to react And truly you do not know how you will react to a broken rule or broken or stretched boundary until it happens.
Honestly, it's the same thing with jealousy. You, you can have, if you're new to the lifestyle, you can try all these different kinds of scenarios. You can play them out into your head until the cows come home. But honestly, until it happens, you do not know how you're going to react. So that is our number one rule. That is the rule that we broke. We had unprotected sex with a couple at the same time. Now, how did we break this rule? I just said there it was at the same time. This is where it kind of gets a little bit complex.
So we were talking, engaging with a couple, and we went to play with the the couple and both of us on the same night had unprotected sex in the same room on the same bed. Now this is not, as I understand it, not normally the case, but Hey, if this has happened to you guys too, like hit us up on email.
I'm, I'm really interested to, to know about your journey because some of the stories that I've heard is more so about one person breaking the rule so it might be about one person in the couple breaking the rule and then there's guilt involved there's hurt feelings involved there's finger pointing involved there's of course emotions involved and and I think that is perhaps even a more difficult roadblock to get through harder to get through as a couple whereas what happened with us is that we were playing with a couple and both broke the rule at the same time.
Now, how do we actually break this rule? Honestly, it just comes down to a complete and utter lack of communication and assumptions. You know what they say? Assumptions make an ass out of you and me. And yes, yes, they do.
So we're playing with this couple and I thought Daryl was playing without a condom in my mind i'm like okay this is kind of happening we were in this very libertine kind of uh idea at the time and i mean why were we in that mindset really we could dig a lot down into this like why were we in that mindset why do we think that the other person was doing it why do we think that it was okay for the other person to do it but essentially i thought Daryl was having sex without a condom. He thought I was having sex without a condom.
And so both of us collectively decided like, hey, we're having sex without condoms, which is insane. Insane. He thought we were already having sex without one. I thought he was already having sex without one. And so then kind of the rule book just went out the window. And this is what I mean by the fact that I think it might be slightly easier as a couple to work through this, because even though I can sit here and say to you, I thought he was, and he can sit there and say to you, I thought she was, there wasn't any finger pointing and there wasn't any blame. Was there guilt?
Was there emotions? Hell yes. And I'm going to dig through those in a minute, but that's how we broke it. And I want to say it's a little bit innocent.
Honestly, When I think back to this happening, and I'm going to dig through those in a minute but that's how we broke it and I want to say it's a little bit innocent honestly when I think back to this happening and I'm record we are recording this a little bit after the actual incident because one we wanted to process this but two just out of pure respect for the people that we were playing with it's it's been a bit of time and as I look back and as I reflect on it even the day after the night of like talking about this realizing what was happening to now you know it does feel a little bit innocent to me and it doesn't feel malicious in any way it doesn't feel like it was even though you looked over and you thought something was happening with your partner it didn't feel like it was a well I'm going to get mine too which can so often happen when a rule or a boundary is broken.
Like, oh, they did that. So insert spite here, or they did that. Therefore it's okay. So I'm going to go and do that. There was, there was really none of that, but that's actually kind of how we got to the situation where we broke our rule. Now you're sitting there, you probably, your jaw is probably on the floor because honestly, when I've heard podcasters talk about breaking a rule and talking about it in a, in a way that seemed to me as a listener to be quite flippant, it was for me listening, going, what the fuck guys? Like what the actual fuck? Like this is a huge deal.
Can you not just be so laissez faire with this situation? Right. And I get it. If you're sitting there listening to this and you're like super calm, with this situation, right? And I get it. If you're sitting there listening to this and you're like, super calm, Kate, like, what is happening? I get it. And it's probably because, as I said before, there's been some time, but there was no malicious intent. And so, yeah, I feel you. If you're listening to this and you're like, what the fuck is happening? I get it. I get it. I'm with you. I also kind of feel that way a little bit.
So this leads me to what did we think about after the rule was broken? Now, there's a few things here that went through my mind.
What I'm going to I also kind of feel that way a little bit so this leads me to what did we think about after the rule was broken now there's a few things here that went through my mind what I'm going to do right now is I'm going to play you some content so directly after this happened Daryl and I separately we hadn't really discussed this broken rule in a little bit we had we'd kind of said to each other like well that happened and shit you know and I mean it was like oh it's really late, actually early in the morning, like, let's get some sleep. Let's kind of sleep. It's fine.
Neither of us were angry, right? Let's get some sleep. And then we were doing other things and like, we just didn't talk about it. So what happened was we actually recorded separately some Patreon content months ago, fresh as soon as this had happened. We recorded the Patreon content separately. I recorded my own, Daryl recorded his, and we played it for Patreon. We hadn't listened to these before we played it for Patreon separately. I didn't know what Daryl was saying. He had absolutely no idea what I was saying. We've since listened to them. We've since spoken about it, of course.
But I want to share with you some audio we recorded very close after the incident. The full content of this is up on our Patreon. Like I said, it's months and months old now. So if you guys want to join our Patreon, you can check out the full length of this recordings, but I'm going to play the snippets for you right now, and then I'm going to come back and talk a little bit more about it.
The interesting thing about telling you guys this, to be quite honest, there's a few things that are running through my head, but one of the things is that i somehow in the lifestyle now feel actually let me let me say this up front i'm not interested in doing that again that was um it's not something that i'm interested in doing we haven't done this with actually very very good relationships before you know which is something that i know sometimes couples might explore if there is testing done and communication involved and isolation and things like that people might be interested in in doing this kind of fluid bonded play it's not really been something that I've ever been interested in and I can tell you that it's not something that I'm interested in doing going forward which leads me to my next point somehow telling you this right now my feelings are interesting because i feel a little bit tarnished in terms of the lifestyle um saying this out loud to you guys which is of course a limited group of 85 people um for me feels like people that might be listening might be judging but it also means people might be listening and thinking they don't want to play with me now because of this which is probably an interesting emotion and I'm probably going to have to actually delve into that a little bit more, but it does feel like I've tarnished myself in terms of the lifestyle.
Following on from that, of course, like we've done the standard thing, which is that we have not been playing with anybody else since this occurred. We've gone and gotten tested, which I know is not foolproof. We have to get tested again as things develop and everything else. But it is interesting. So we broke our one rule and we played unprotected with somebody else. And, of course, alongside that, there's the risk of things like pregnancy. There's the risk of STIs. But then furthermore, there's the risk of what does this mean for your relationship?
Oftentimes, couples might only be fluid bonded to each other. And aside from being emotionally tied to a person, that might be something that we as lifestylers say, well, that is our remaining thing that we keep together. You know, that's the one thing that we keep in our sexual lives that's just for us. And so it feels a little bit like we've broken that. Interestingly, I know that this has always been something that actually Daryl has wanted to try.
He has actually mentioned this a couple of times on the podcast, the potential to be interested in seeing how a fluid-bonded play situation would work and just to experience it. And it's something that I've been adamant that I'm not really interested in. And still to this day, I can say definitely, like I said, it's not something I'm going to pursue moving forward at all. Interestingly, though, a lot of the time when somebody breaks a rule or breaks a boundary or manoeuvres a boundary, shifts a boundary, there's hurt feelings involved.
And with those hurt feelings, there's sometimes guilt involved. And with the guilt, there can sometimes be an amount of finger pointing. And what I will say is that if you'd have asked me two years ago, what would happen if one of us or both of us, which is both of us in this case, but if one of us had played unprotected, what that would mean for our relationship. And honestly, two years ago, I can probably say to you that there would have been some very argumentative, yelling, fighting possibly involved because it is a hurtful, potentially hurtful thing.
You know, I know a gentleman asked Kate whether they could have sex, and I heard that, so she made a conscious decision about that, and I also did, but just in a different frame of mind, frame of reference.
So, that's probably the biggest thing that I find interesting about this, is that we either both had it in our mind, or we, well, it was either, that or it was spite, and I I don't think it's a secret that I'd hope to see Kate have sex without using protection and it was a very exciting prospect to be had been for some time and in this particular instance it just happened spontaneously which made it a little little unusual and weird and you know we hadn't prepared for it or spoken about it so let me lay out the night as I see it we'd been drinking drinking with a couple for quite some time and we found them very interesting they were they were a lovely couple they are a lovely couple they're not dead they're a lovely couple and they and we really enjoyed our time with them so we were chatting to them and drinking with them for quite some time and it was getting late in the night and we were actually making the decision uh to call it so we we were ready to to go home and catch up with them again another time go back to our room and then the gentleman of the couple actually said hey how about you come back to our room and i looked at kate kate looked at me and we nodded and went back to their room now everything happened very quickly once we got back to their room there wasn't a lot of time for conversation there wasn't even any foreplay realistically it went from it went from kissing and chatting to to hardcore in like no time at all it was it was a really interesting shift I do have to mention also that daryl was in the car when he was recording that part of his audio so apologies that it is not super crystal clear and awesome it is what it is you know so so there you go but that was kind of a little bit about what we were feeling afterwards the interesting thing that i can tell you that probably i didn't include on that Patreon content, so this will be new for everybody, is it did feel a little bit icky the next morning for me.
Having somebody's cock go inside my pussy unprotected did feel new and different and a little bit icky because of the fact that that is something I have not done with another human for over 12 years since I've been with Daryl we play protected with all the other partners we've ever been with so since Daryl some 12 plus years ago I haven't had another man's cock unsheathed inside my pussy before and so the feeling and the sensation again wasn't anger afterwards it wasn't all of those things that you would probably think it was it was a level of like holy shit that happened and how am I processing this because that moment that thing has been reserved for my partner for the last 12 years and do I feel like a dirty whore you know and do I how do I feel about it now he didn actually come inside me.
I think there would have been other elements of me feeling differently if he had come inside me. And on that point, actually, Daryl did in fact come inside the other lady. And there was afterwards some feelings on my side of like, whoa, I think it's one thing to have unprotected sex with somebody.
And again, I feedback guys send me send me your emails let me know what your thoughts are i think it's one thing to have unprotected sex with somebody and i think it's completely another to be fluid bonded in terms of actually coming inside someone i think those are two different things pulling out and coming on someone's stomach versus coming inside someone's pussy. I think they're two very different things. Would I have felt differently if he had done that to me? I think yes. Did I feel a little bit interesting and a little bit strange that Daryl had done that with another woman? Yes.
Was I angry about it? No. I mean, I was like, well, that's, I don't particularly like it. I feel odd about it. I feel feel a little bit strange these are new feelings I don't quite know how to process them but I wasn't angry and I wasn't passing blame I was just like huh I probably would have preferred if you had not come inside of her but it happened and let's move on let's move past it so that's kind of what we felt afterwards and in the weeks following. In the Patreon content, you would have noticed Daryl mentioned that it is not a surprise to anybody that he has wanted to see this.
This has actually been something that is of sexual interest to him. And he has voices many times in the podcast and he's voiced it many times to me, but more in a controlled environment where he is there and getting to see the person come inside of me and those kinds of things. Not, I guess, the way that this had played out. Now you might be wondering how the sex was. Maybe you're not. Maybe you're still picking your jaw up off the floor and you're like, what the fuck is happening? The sex was amazing. It was really good.
I mean, I know Daryl briefly mentioned there in his Patreon content that we just kind of just got down to fucking. And honestly, we did. And sometimes that's a lot of fun as well. You know, sometimes it's a lot of fun to have the buildup and the foreplay and the teasing and all of that. And I mean, some people like the edging. I hate it. It makes me angry, but that's fun. And sometimes just fucking and walking into a club and fucking and then walking out that also sometimes is fun. And I think that is the mood that we were in. We loved these people. We enjoyed their company.
They are great humans, great individuals. Would we date them again? Absolutely.
Would we actually go on a date with them absolutely would we play with them again most probably but the sex i think for us that night was more about just fucking and more about having a good time and being obviously a little bit careless and maybe being a little bit more libertine and throwing kind of care to the wind it was fantastic sex to be honest did it feel different for me not really the actual sex itself did it feel different being with somebody without a condom no honestly it didn't but the sex was absolutely fantastic just animalistic just savagery just absolutely fucking for the sake of fucking that in amongst this all there is a very real situation that's unfolding afterwards the sex was great you may have felt a little bit icky the next morning but the reality of having sex with somebody unprotected is greater than the evening and it's greater than your emotions and yes what I'm talking about is sexually transmitted infections diseases and pregnancy I actually can't get pregnant so that is for me a non-issue.
I mean, I still get tested, whatever, but mainly because for whatever reason, my OBGYN continues to test me. I think out of the theory that some divine influence is going to come down and maybe one of these days I'm going to miraculously fall pregnant.
But the very real situation was that this required some afterthought because we do care about the people that we engage with i mean we also care about ourselves of course we care about our own personal health we care about the health of our partner but then the broader effects of this is that we care about the health of the potential other people that we're going to be playing with and so the very real situation that unfolded after of course was things like testing and no sex with anybody else for a very long time. And yes, I am aware that things take time to develop.
So there was a number of rounds of testing. It wasn't like I went, I had unprotected sex one day. The next day I was back at the, I was at the doctor's getting some tests and they came up clear and I was all like hunky dory. No, that's not what happened. We had a series of different tests timelined out from when this actually occurred. By the way, this cost like $700. So this was not a cheap situation afterwards either. But then we also sustained, we completely didn't have sex with anybody else. And we also use protection in our own bed afterwards.
So there was some very real conversations happening after the fact, which included, what about these other people? And the interesting thing about having unprotected sex, sometimes when people are talking about it, if it is planned, you talk about the testing. You might want to see some test results. You might be abstaining from sex with anybody else, then get some test results and then meet up because you know you're going to be fluid bonded. There could be a whole process involved.
We did not know whether, I mean, this is the first time time we've done this we don't know if this is the first time the other couple has done this I mean I would assume yes because I like to assume the best in everybody but realistically we didn't know whether or not this couple actually does often like to play bareback we did not know that and so the impact on the other couple as well for us was of something of consideration.
You know, we wanted to make sure that the other people were also healthy, but we also wanted to make sure that we weren't going to be doing the wrong thing by anybody else that we've played with. And when I talk about getting STI and STD testing, when I talk about panels, I'm talking about a very, very comprehensive results, which is why it was so expensive.
Everything from a pap smear to blood tests, to oral swabs, I always get HSV added to it, herpes simplex virus, because again, I've said this in the past guys, but if you are getting tested, most of the time, these tests do not test for HSV1, HSV2. You have to specifically ask for it. So when you were looking at testing, please make sure you're getting something that's comprehensive and not something that's just surface because otherwise, what's the point? So yeah, there was testing. There was no sex with others. That's the reality of what it meant. Now, what else did it mean to us afterwards?
And I touched on this in my Patreon content, but honestly, I felt a little bit broken. I felt like I had broken a cardinal sin and that basically, as I come out into this community, the whole community is going to shun me, point at me, put me in a corner and say, dirty whore, and not in the good way, but like dirty whore, you had bareback sex with somebody else. You are disgusting. You are disease ridden. Get out of here, Kate. We never want to see you again. And honestly, that people might hear this episode and say, I don't want to play with Kate.
I don't want to play with her anymore because she's careless, you know, and she's had unprotected sex with somebody else. Like, what a slut. Honestly, I did feel that way for a little while. I felt like, holy hell, coming in and telling people this. Because as content creators, I think sometimes we forget what happens on the other end, but I'm also a huge consumer of content. I read blogs, I read books, I listen to podcasts, like I follow people on social media, I comment, I engage.
And so I think sometimes as content creators, we forget the impact that we can have by talking about these things, but also we forget the fact that there are people, like I said before, who are listening going, what the fuck is happening? You know, I thought I knew Kate and Daryl, like, what are you talking about? This whole time you talk about protection and you talk about being super safe in the community and you talk about ethics and morals, and then you're going and having unprotected sex. What the fuck, guys? So yeah, I did worry about that. I felt a little bit broken.
I felt like I'd done the wrong thing and not necessarily within our own relationship I mean Daryl and I are good we're solid we spoke about it we went yeah whoop you know whoop but more so I was like what the fuck are these people gonna think what are people out of my community gonna think what if I go to an event and I'm talking about a seminar and talking about testing and talking about making sure that you're you know doing the right thing by the people that you're playing with and leaving them in a better place than when you found them and then somebody in the crowd's like oi I heard that episode where you had unprotected sex with somebody so you've got no right talking about this these were things that I actually really thought about so you know I was worried the community was going to shun me as a result of it please don't shun me um please don't shun me that's all I've got to say about that so look lessons learned let's talk about lessons learned and let's talk about working through it I'm actually now going to take a pause and I'm going to play some audio from Catherine Catherine is from Expansive Connection Relationship Counseling her details will be in the show notes today I reached out to Catherine recently and I said hey I going to do an episode on broken rules.
Daryl and I have our own thoughts about how people should handle this, but let's see from a professional because, you know, two bogans from Australia, like don't maybe know what they're talking about. So maybe let's talk to somebody who, you know, is a licensed professional. So Catherine sent me some audio through, this is recorded on her phone. So you can hear a little bit in the background, but I want you to have a listen to this because it's not just from Catherine.
Catherine actually went and workshopped this with the other counsellors at Expansive Connection and I'm telling you what when I was listening to this I'm sitting there going this is really valuable. So this is for the people out there who have broken a rule, broken a boundary, maybe torn a boundary however you want to phrase it or if you're worried about it happening and you're thinking, how the hell are we going to get through this? This next section is for you. And I really want to thank Catherine from Expansive Connection. So I'm going to leave this with you guys and I'll be back soon.
Hi, CND. This is Catherine from Expansive Connection Coaching. Thank you so much for asking me to weigh in on this episode, which I think is so important and exciting. And as always, I want to give you guys huge props for being vulnerable and willing to talk about the shadow sides of all this fun that we have and being willing to put yourselves on the hot seat, so to speak, about breaking a rule and talking through it together. I just, again, I really appreciate you guys being willing to do that and normalizing it for all of us.
So the first thing that I would like to say is that I took this quandary to my other coaches, Misha, who is a sex therapist and trauma specialist, and also Kelsia, who is an Enneagram and adult chair inner parts work specialist. And we brainstormed this together, which is always wonderful to have a team to do this. So these are not just my thoughts.
This is a group think and brought, we're bringing you ideas from our varied experience with clients and our own personal journeys on this, because that's the deal with our coaching business is that we are walking this journey as well and happy to share the ups and downs with our clients. So first of all, I would like to normalize that this happens. We break rules. We have the best intentions. We sit down with our sharpened pencils and we make rules and guidelines and boundaries. And we are smart and scholarly in doing so. And then the sex happens.
We were all laughing about the amazing cocktail of hormones that happen when we get turned on. And studies have shown that our IQ points drop the more turned on we are. And so what makes perfectly good sense when we have our prefrontal cortex online and we are, you know, buttoned up professionals or in our most adult chair, if you will, in our relationships, those feelings and that drive doesn't always translate once we're super turned on. So this is a normal occurrence.
Sex making our IQ drop is not an excuse to keep us to say, oh, well, I was just turned on, I can't be held accountable for my actions. Absolutely not. We are still in control. And we do have a prefrontal cortex that needs to stay somewhat online when we are doing this, too. I like to say I like to set boundaries so that I can have some I can be response, I can be irresponsible in a responsible way.
So we set out this place where we can go and have a lot of fun, but we have set up good guidelines, rules and boundaries so that we are still responsible while we are letting loose and being in our bodies and having that irresponsible fun. I think that the first thing that when this happens, when a rule is broken, the first thing that we need to do, and this was Miche's contribution, is first we need to talk about the uncomfortable feelings we're having about having done it, what was happening during the time. And when we do this, it's very important to have lots of empathy.
And this is empathy for yourself, that you're human and imperfect and you screwed something up, and also having lots of empathy for your partner. For me, this is easier when my partner is not defensive if my partner's like man i really fucked up and here's what i did and here's how i'm feeling about here are the uncomfortable feelings that were going on during and since then it sounds funny but it's like i can already see that he's beating himself up plenty and then i don't need to get a lead pipe out and start banging on his shins for it.
He's already doing the important work that guilt prompts. So guilt is actually not a terrible emotion. Guilt is a wonderful, one of the most effective behavior change agents. So if your partner or you have broken a rule and you feel guilty about it, good. Guilt tells us that we have stepped out of our own moral code. We have stepped out of our integrity and it feels icky, awful, terrible, but it is such a powerful behavior change motivator.
So partner that broke the rule, be honest, let your defenses down, let your partner see that you are beating yourself up, that you are having this wrestle match with guilt and let them know what these uncomfortable feelings are. And then partner who is receiving that, see that they're already beating them up and put your back down. You don't need to beat them up anymore.
Now that doesn't mean that you don't need to share your feelings or betrayals or the uncomfortable feelings you're having about it, but do so with a lot of empathy that they're already, you don't need to rub extra salt in their wound. They're doing plenty of it for themselves. Okay. So then we want to encourage you to revisit the rule. This was Kelsey's suggestion, which I thought was just so smart. So why did we have this rule in the first place? Was it about our safety or was it just about staying comfortable?
Of course, with the example that you guys are sharing, certainly with protection, there is a safety component to that. And so if this feels like it's a safety one, you probably are going to want to keep that rule and figure out how to better set yourselves up for success to keep the rule. Maybe the rule is just about comfort. You know, it just makes me uncomfortable if you side text with another person. Well, the person broke the rule. Did that lack of comfort, yes, of course it made you uncomfortable, but did it push you to do some growth? Did it create some conversations?
Can you be comfortable with being uncomfortable now and again? Do the reasons that you made the rule still make sense to you? Maybe you made the rule two years ago and your relationship dynamics have shifted. What you're looking for in your ethical non-monogamy journey has shifted. So maybe those rules are a bit outdated. I'm always really careful to talk about, as you notice, I said shifted in dynamics. We're not talking about evolved or progress or anything like that.
There isn't a spectrum of what's better non-monogamy and what's worse non-monogamy, as long as it's all ethical, in my opinion. But there are things that shift. And so I know when When we first started, we had hard and comfort for us to continue to move forward. But then a year and a half later, we started kind of craving, wanting to have some of that separate conversation. So we revisited the rule. Does this still make sense? Do we feel more confident in our attachment to each other? Does our foundation feel more secure where we might be willing to step outside the comfort a bit?
So we shifted our rules and guidelines about that. Are the things that created the rule still applicable in your relationship? Does, is it still needed? And then there's the idea of shifting from a rule, which I would say has a lot to do about creating a feeling of safety. This tends to be more black and white. You can think of it more as a law where you break the law or you don't versus a guideline, which is a little more on the ethics side of the discussion, where there isn't necessarily a black and white decision. And it does put quite a bit of trust.
You are able to trust your partner's judgment in the moment. So maybe what started out as a hard, fast rule for us, for instance, was side texting. Nope, we will not do that. Period. Full stop. It was very black and white. We were needing it because we needed to pull the wagons in after some discretion, things things that happened that made us feel unsafe, made our relationship foundation feel wobbly. And then we shifted it more to a guideline, like let's side text in these circumstances. And generally the rule about it is because I don't want to feel left out.
So please don't write anything that you wouldn't want me to see. We'll see how then that goes more to a guideline. And that's more of something that you're exploring in the moment. So then we also were saying that it would probably be good to explore what prompted you to step out of your integrity. What made you step out of that moral code that is creating this guilt response? What was the temptation to step out? Were you caught up in the moment?
Were you caught up in a win in Rome kind of situation where maybe the couple you were with or where you were felt more lax and flowy and not as as rule bound as other places or people you've been with? Were you really just desiring a certain type of connection that you weren't getting? These are all things that can happen and need to be discussed so that you can make room for them in your discussion, in your rulemaking. Was it about pressure or lack of importance for your rule from the other person you were with?
So I could imagine certainly with using protection, there are some people that are much more fastidious about this than others. There are other people that don't see it as big a deal. And so maybe there was pressure or maybe it was just the other person didn't have the hard, fast black and white rule to bump up against. And so it made it easier or made it more difficult for you to be the hard, fast rule follower. Were you feeling rebellious? This can happen. Hello, especially for those of us willing to rebel against society's norms about relationship structure.
Hell yeah, we have a rebellious streak. And sometimes, damn it, we just don't want to follow the rules. We want to be wild and free. That is normal, not necessarily very prudent all the time or great for safety or building trust. But if you acknowledge that you are feeling the desire to be rebellious, explore that. Are there other ways that you could, you know, let your hair down and feel rebellious without doing it in a way that breaks the trust of your most loved partner? All right. And then the other thing that Miche brought up, I thought this was wonderful, is consequences.
And she does a lot of work in DBT therapy. And in DBT therapy, there are consequences, but not with the negative attribution that we put to the word consequences. Okay, well, now you have to be punished. It's not punitive, it's consequences. What will happen because I do this? What will happen because I do that? And, you know, so for instance, if it's a protection issue, okay, are there going to be, is there going to be, are there going to be more frequent testing? Yeah, none of us love to go get an STI test, but that is a natural consequence of breaking that rule.
Is it that we're going to slow down a little bit? We might put a pause on the lifestyle in general, or we might put a pause on the way we were playing or the way we were exploring connection. Maybe we decide that we want to reach out for help. We want to reach out for a coach or a counselor or somebody that could help us get to the bottom of what was going on for us. Maybe it's researching and understanding other people's rules and guidelines and saying, hmm, does that fit for us? Would this be better for us? So again, the consequences should not feel punitive by either person.
This is not going to be about self-punishment or punishing your partner. This is about what are the natural consequences of stepping out of my integrity, stepping out of my moral code, stepping out of trust with my partner. What needs to happen? And then finally, of course, the big question of how do we rebuild the trust? This is generally done slowly over time. This certainly has a word component, especially if your partner's love language is words of affirmation, but it's also very actions-based.
I often say to people, if you're in the business of rebuilding trust, and let's say you say, your partner says, okay, just please be home by 9 p.m. Get your ass home at 8.50, not 9.01, not nine o'clock. Show your commitment to building trust by going above and beyond what they request. All right. We hope that this helps give you some ideas from the coaching corner, if you will. And if you have any thoughts or ideas for us or feedback, we would certainly love to hear it. Our website is expansiveconnection.com.
The more fun side of our website is expansiveconnection.com backslash ENM for ethical non-monogamy. And that's where you get access to all of our saucier, spicier side, our podcasts that we've been on and our courses that we offer and how to book us for coaching if that's something you'd like. So thanks again, CND, and keep up the great work of all the exploration that you do Thank you.
offer and how to book us for coaching if that's something you'd like so thanks again cnd and keep up the great work of all the exploration that you do in the name of fun but also in the name of growth and thanks for continuing to put such great work out into the world bye so i really hope that you enjoyed that thank you again catherine my takeaways from how to work it. Number one, and these takeaways, I had them written down before Catherine actually sent me that audio. And I kind of feel like, hey, pat on the back, like I had some shit going on.
I was actually, you know, kind of in the right realm of like maybe saying what I think is a good way to do it. But look, again, what the fuck do I know? I'm an Australian bogan, right? So here we go. Don't be so hard on yourself or on your relationship. Most things aren't done maliciously. I mentioned this earlier in the podcast episode now that when somebody breaks a rule or does something wrong, genuinely, most of the time, they're not doing it to hurt you. They're not doing it out of spite. They're not doing it maliciously.
They're not out, I mean, unless they're just a horrible person and then fuck that person. But if you are the person who's broken the rule or if you're on the receiving end of that, like I said, maybe it's one person who's broken something and you're on the receiving end is don't be so hard on yourself, but also on your relationship. That's my, one of my big takeaways.
And the other thing is to truly figure out what it means to you and how you can move past it and that might be removing some of the emotional ties to the rule broken and taking a step back so when we broke this rule and i know again katherine mentions this in her in her audio there but when we broke the rule you know how what emotions did i tie to it okay i tied something to it that was well this is something that you know daryl and I do exclusively I tied it to a little bit of health concerns I tied it to then what does that mean for us you know like if then there's nothing left so taking some of those things and why you're so emotionally connected to that particular rule and setting them aside just for a little bit taking a step back because what does it mean to you and how can you move past it i don't think you can have those actual conversations when you're in the thick of it and you're just thinking he just came inside somebody else's pussy and holy shit like i've never seen that before and maybe you're high school sweethearts and it has never happened before you know what i mean um our relationship is only 12 years old so yeah mean, I have had boyfriends in the past, you know, I'm not going to lie, like a long-term relationships where I have been fluid bonded to them.
And so this is the first time I've seen Daryl do it, but I can't, you know, if you were in a 20, 30 year, 40 year relationship, high school sweethearts or whatever, and this is the first time you're ever seeing or ever even thinking about the fact that he's coming inside somebody else. I can imagine that there's a hell of a lot of emotional ties to that. And I know it's hard to do an easiest-at-the-net-the- to me and how can we collectively move past it maybe that's going to take some time too like this is not maybe something that's going to be fixed a day.
Like maybe you actually need to not bring the topic up for a few days, you know, just allow yourself some personal time to actually sit down and think about it. Maybe you need to journal, write some things down and do it over a couple of days. So that first day that you're journaling might be really emotional. Like I hate this motherfucker and I can't believe he did this to me and I'm so angry at him and how dare he backstab me. Second day, you might start to reflect a little bit.
Third day, you're looking at it and going, okay, like obviously this has happened and you know, here's why I'm a little bit upset about it and here's how I can move on. Those are some of the things that I would try to do if you guys have broken a rule. Okay, let's now talk about your stories. I reached out and wrote on Twitter and I wrote in some forums about people breaking rules and I want to share what you guys told me. So we're going to take a quick break. We're going to come back and I'm going to share some of your stories.
Oh, and while I'm back, a big shout out to our Aussie friend who just reviewed us and said, basically along the lines of, I don't know why you breaks like it's three seconds um yeah you're right you're right uh right on dude I do thank you for that a hundred percent really had no no response to that um it is indeed a break why we take a little break there if you're in Australia you probably don't hear any ads you don't hear all you hear is the music if you are in States, in Canada, you're probably hearing an ad space for things like Podcasterpalooza or our friends over at Casual Toys or things like that because every now and then we like to insert something into those spaces.
But if you're in Australia or if you're in, I don't know, Fiji or if you're in Indonesia, you probably don't hear anything in those ad breaks. So you're like, what is the point of the ad breaks? That's the point. The little breaks. Sometimes they have stuff in them. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes I liked a little, I like to add things in there that are just nonsense. So if you're in a country that ends up with one of those, that's me adding in nonsense. Right. Let's talk about, let's talk about breaking rules. And let's talk about what you guys said. Firstly, I put up a Twitter poll.
I know, right? So weird. I never do Twitter polls. No, I put up a Twitter poll. This is actually back in October. And I said, have you ever broken a rule in a swinging lifestyle? Rule being something that you and your partner agreed were no-goes for your journey. I'm going to clarify that because people might think there are different things. This poll is anonymous, but feel free to DM me with your story. Now, 44, 45% almost actually, 45% of people said yes, they had broken a rule. 32% said no, they haven't broken a rule.
And again, that was Daryl and I for the first six years of our swinging lifestyle journey. But here we are today, we're in the yes column. So it was 44.8 and now it's 45. And then I asked also maybe you flexed a boundary. So I had, yes, you broke a rule. No, you didn't break a rule. And then maybe you flexed a boundary. And actually 22% of people said they flexed a boundary. Why I put that in there is because I wanted to know out of all of the things that you said, Hey, these are no goes, or these are things we're not going to do. How many of us actually end up doing those things?
And if you take the yes column and you take the flexed boundary column, that is basically almost 70% of all people in the lifestyle. The reason that I think that's relevant and goes back to not being so goddamn hard on yourself is because 70% of us out there have either broken a rule or flexed a boundary at some point.
So when you're doing this, or if you've done it, you are not alone, don't be hard on yourself maybe consider not doing it again though if this is a you know of a concern to you right here we go max derrick said we have a get out of jail free system which is a monopoly reference if you are a board gamer for any board gamers or gamers out there who don't think monopoly deserves to be mentioned in the board game realm because you're a hater, just going to leave that you're a hater. Monopoly is just as much of a board game as other board games. Just get off your high horse. So backtracking.
Max Derrick, we have a get out of jail free system. There is no way to figure out every little thing that can cause an issue. So it's like an I forgive you even before a rule is broken or something happens unexpectedly. And we have both had to use it. So max is in the 45% of people that's had to use it. But it made it much easier to talk about an issue knowing that forgiveness is already there. I like this idea. I mean, it doesn't get out of jail free card, like an immediate I forgive you you doesn't mean you get the opportunity to be a dick or a jerk.
Like, again, goes back to people genuinely trying not to be malicious about things. But I think it's good to see that relationships are there going, hey, you are my life partner. You are not perfect. At some point, you are going to fuck up because you are human.
I can forgive you and I can deal can deal with that and hey it would be great if you can give me the same thing i think that max has it has it sorted i think that max and his partner whoever whoever that person may be i think they got it sorted i love this idea of like we don't know what's going to happen we are not perfect we can't think about all exact things that are going to happen in this journey because it is a new, different thing. There's emotions. If you're at a party or an event, there's excitement. You know, you can forget this stuff. So, hey, if you fuck up, I forgive you.
Let's talk about it and let's move on collectively as a couple unit. So thank you very much, Max Derrick. I really loved that, which is why you're one of the ones getting mentioned today. Right. The next one is from Angela. And this is actually in reference to the fact that I mentioned that we broke the no condom rule. Angela says that rule is the rule everyone has and everyone breaks it. So don't feel too bad about it. You now both get tested. No sex without condoms between both of you until you test negative.
You might want to take now some big antibiotic pills that kills chlamydia and gonorrhea, et cetera. We any rules so we cannot break them we just have one guiding principle think about how the other person would feel before we do something and we usually stick to it unless we are not sober and then anything goes and this is why you know sometimes some of that impaired decision making is not such a great thing for example at a party we usually tell the other person who we are about to play with so the other person doesn't worry. But then sometimes we don't. It's no big deal.
Most of the rules are born from insecurities. No kissing, no coming inside another woman. So people work on their insecurities and not have the rules to limit their pleasure or their experience. Angela's not wrong in the fact that a lot of the times, and I mentioned this in the opening here, when we put these rules into place, it's because as adults, we think and we hope during this very new experience, during these things that we have absolutely no idea about, I want to make sure that my primary relationship stays my number one relationship and that I am not doing anything to jeopardize that.
So what do we do? We put rules and we put boundaries into place because in our minds, those 100% safeguard our relationship. And we stick to those in the beginning because of the fact that there's so unknown what would happen. Hey, let's put in these rules and boundaries because if we don't break them, it means we don't break us and we're going to be okay. And there are some insecurities relating to that.
When you think about some of the rules that people might have being you know no texting outside of the call for people everybody should be on a group chat only and I think initially we might have even had that I mean I'd have to go back honestly I'd have to go back and listen to my own podcast which sounds oh ridiculous um but the reason behind that is I was a very insecure jealous person when we first started this this lifestyle journey. I felt ugly. I felt undesired. I felt not worthy.
And as a result of that, my insecurities were coming through in some of the rules that we were creating for ourselves. I don't want you talking to another girl because I can't see what's happening. And if I can't see what's happening, then she's trying to steal you away from me because she's better than me, thinner than me, younger than me, whatever, insert craziness here. So Angela's not wrong when she mentions the fact that it is about its insecurities.
So I think going back to some of the things we spoke about before, how to work through this, when you're thinking about those emotional ties, are those emotional ties based on some of your own personal insecurities? And by the way, and this is going to sound super preachy, but I don't care. Insecurities and jealousy is not a wrong, bad, horrible, humiliating thing. I think a lot of the time, you know, the green monster, we try to stigmatize this and make it in such a taboo way instead of embracing it and saying, I am a little bit insecure because I'm older.
I am a little bit insecure because I have a smaller cup size and a lot of the people I see have breast augmentation. Whatever it looks like to you, maybe it's about your cock size, maybe it's about your height, maybe it's about things that you have absolutely zero control over. I don't think it's a negative or a horrible thing for us all to just admit to our insecurities. And sometimes when people talk about them, they just get super judgy about the fact like we're somehow evolved past that in the lifestyle, like we are, you know, the human plus plus. Oh, we don't get jealous. Nah.
No, we don't feel insecure because we're amazing. We're on a heightened level because we're in the lifestyle. No, buddy. We still get them. I have them right fucking now as I'm sitting here recording this. I'm about to go to the United States and I'm worried I'm going to be the fattest person in the room. Insecure. Crazy also, by the way. So, hey, I think I admit to them a little bit, a little bit off track here, but yeah, thanks Angela for sending that in. Okay. As we get ready to wrap up here, I would love to hear from you guys.
Those are my lessons learned really was about the fact that this happened. I think if I mentioned this in my Patreon bonus content, but if this happened maybe in the first year or two of our lifestyle journey, I would be in a very different place talking to you right now. And I don't think I would have been easily to get over that. Honestly, I think that with experience, with a little bit of age, a bit of maturity in there as well, because we were 29 when we first started the lifestyle, I think that I'm in a much better place to sit here and talk to you and say, yes, we both broke a rule.
Yes, it was something that we should have, no, I don't want to say probably shouldn't have done, but I want to say we should have talked about it a little bit more and really thought about it before we'd actually gone and done this but it is something that could happen maybe it has happened to you so if it has happened that's my lessons learned but I also want to hear from you guys and I want to hear about your stories as well how you got through it did you get through it is it still something today that you think about and you get a lump in your throat every time you imagine it happening because if you're anything like me you like to play stuff over as you go on to sleep which is super helpful in your mind of things that happened in the past that were like cringeworthy so yeah so i hope you enjoyed that episode i hope that you got something out of it and please do reach out to katherine at expensive connection if you want to hear more because i honestly think that they're doing they're doing great work over there but a few shout outs and i can't do as good of a job you know Daryl gave everybody like little Aussie names and I can't do it I'm I'm not as I'm not as witty so I'm just going to give these thanks so thank you very much to our newest Patreon members that have joined us we've got Caden we've got R&R from the Triple X Files we've Bronwyn we've got Rocket Pop Snow and Ice and Jay and Deb you so much for joining us over on Patreon.
This month I put up some additional bonus content there. Actually two or three additional bonus episodes are all up on our Patreon site. So if you guys want to support us, go check out the show notes. Before we leave though, I do have two other shout outs, two special shout outs. I have a shout out to Aussie Ryan and Tiani, and I was told very specifically, pronounced T-R-N-E so hey hey there Aussie Ryan and Tiani but my next shout out is really what happened when we were in Australia.
So when we're in Australia as I mentioned earlier during the opening COVID just kind of exploded in Australia to the point where it's already the holiday season so like cafes and restaurants and bars and stuff in Australia, just, you know, may work, may decide to open, may not. Like there's just what happens down in Australia. Like people are like, eh, I may open, I might not. Like who can be sure? Yeah, nah, it's all good.
Anyway, so as COVID was exploding down in Australia, what happens with us with travel in particular is that if we test positive for COVID and I've had my booster now, I've got my three jabs, boom. But if we test positive for COVID, we ain't going fucking anywhere. Like we can't get home. And obviously we had to get home so we can go back to work. And then I've got on my trip coming up to, you know, the States, which again, I'll be going over there for work. And so we were actually going to hang out with some listeners down there and that's Aussie Bloke Pete and B. Sheila.
They're based out of Melbourne. We were going to catch up with them. They even had a Christmas present for work. And so we were actually going to hang out with some listeners down there. And that's Aussie Bloke, Pete and B. Sheila. They're based out of Melbourne. We were going to catch up with them. They even had a Christmas present for us. And honestly, just got to the point where we were a couple of days away from getting a PCR test. By the way, this morning I had another PCR test. It was my 28th PCR test. And I'm not talking rapid tests. I'm talking 28 PCR tests.
I have another one because I'm going to America. Anyway, so we were really worried about, well, what if we see people? What if we get out in public and then we test positive? And it wasn't so much about getting the COVID. I mean, that is fucking horrible. Don't get me wrong. But it was about not being able to return home and what that would mean. I mean, pennies at the pet sitter, we'd miss work, possibly lose income, you know, all these plus, plus where are we going to stay when we're in Melbourne? because our friends probably at that point would have definitely had enough of us.
And so we didn't – we had to pull the plug. We had to pull the plug, guys, and so we didn't catch up with Aussie Bloke, Pete and Bea Sheeler. And I feel fucking horrible about it. So here's your own little shout-out on the podcast, guys. Sorry. I know you were pissed and upset about it. I would have been too, but, know, fucking bloody COVID. Anyway, guys, that has been the Broken Rule episode 143. Thank you for hanging in there with me. And we will be back soon because we are going to be doing an episode on how to host sex parties. And we're going to critique the shit out of swingershelp.com.
So stick around with us. We'd love to hear from hear from you guys again about broken rules. Let us know, hit us up and guess what guys we do. I finally, I finally created a new email address. I know, right? So if you guys want to reach out to us, you can hit us up on email at wanderlustswingers.com and we'll get back to you.
But that's the new email address that I created finally after, um, I don't even know after like one year of still running the swinging down under email but hey email at wanderlustswingers.com if you guys want to get in contact with us if you've got questions if you've got comments if you want to say to me we're bloody idiots happy for you guys to do that but otherwise we will see you soon and I hope that you enjoyed and yeah happy end of January 2022 2022. Let's get February kicking off with a fucking bang. All right, guys, bye-bye.
