What is Cuckolding? What is Cuckqueening? Many people incorrectly assume that this fetish involves only humiliation.
We interview Dr Justin Lehmiller a PHD and Social Psychologist about Cuckolding and the psychology behind this fetish and desire of being cucked.
In the second half of this podcast we talk about the taboo behind using sex toys and using sex toys as a male.
Links for Dr Lehmiller
Dr. Justin Lehmiller Sex and Psychology Blog https://www.lehmiller.com/
Dr Lehmiller Twitter Account
Dr Lehmiller Instagram Account
Tell Me What You Want Book
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Transcript
you're listening to the wanderlust swingers podcast with aussie hosts kate and daryl if you're curious about exploring your sexuality or the swinging hot wiping and non-monogamous lifestyle you've definitely come to the right podcast or maybe you just love travel adventures either way we share our personal sometimes juicy sexy stories as well as swingers club and event reviews interviews interviews with other sassy people, and of course, our global swinging adventures. We try to bring you a look into the diverse lifestyle that the swinging and non-monogamous community has. We hope you enjoy.
Now let's get into the episode. G'day everyone and welcome back to another episode of wanderlust swingers yes that is correct if you have been listening to us for a little while and you caught our bonus episode recently we mentioned that we are changing our name from swinging down under to wanderlust swingers we are in the process of updating all of our domain details, but don't worry, the RSS feed, this podcast feed, as well as our website details are all going to be redirected. So no need to worry about heading elsewhere. You'll still be able to find our podcast as you found it today.
Exciting news. This episode is actually all about cock holding and cock queening. Now, if you aren't really aware of what those terms are, we delve into the psychology behind them. Interestingly enough, when Daryl and I first started our journey many, many years ago, he mentioned the term cock holding to me. And I went and I Googled it because I had no idea what it meant. And the results came up with a lot of information about humiliation and really focusing on BDSM. That information, of course, was very one-sided, very biased into how that person approached cockholding.
And we know that there is a lot of information out there on the internet that is just not correct and not appropriate. And because Daryl and I don't know enough about this particular topic, we reached out to Dr. Justin Lehmiller. And today on the podcast, I interview him and we talk about cuckolding, what actually is it? What is the psychology behind it? Why people might enjoy being cucked and what it really means to be in this particular kind of alternative relationship, which falls into the spectrum of consensual non-monogamy.
We also talk about the taboo behind sex toys, and in particular, men using sex toys in the second half of this episode. I was really excited to bring Dr. Leigh Miller on the podcast, and I hope that you guys enjoy this episode. We are always extremely humbled when people want to actually come on the show and be interviewed, and it is you guys out there listening that give us the credit to be able to get these kinds of people and these kinds of professionals on the I'll see you next time.
come on the show and be interviewed and it is you guys out there listening that give us the credit to be able to get these kinds of people and these kinds of professionals on the podcast so thank you to you guys out there all right no more rambling guys i'm going to get straight into the interview with dr justin lay miller and i will be back after that to talk to you about some updates of what's happening with daryl and i chat soon all. All right, everybody, and welcome back. I'm extremely excited to bring this next guest to you, and I would like to introduce you to Dr. Justin Lehmiller.
Thank you so much for joining the podcast, Justin. Thanks for having me here. Now, you are a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, which a lot of our listeners know about, and please do go and check the show notes if you're unfamiliar with what the Kinsey Institute is. You are a resident expert at Love Honey. You run the Sex and Psychology blog and podcast. And of course, you are the author of a very popular book called Tell Me What You Want, which I personally love. So everybody out there listening, we are extremely excited to have Justin on the podcast today.
And we are going to be talking about cockholding and the truth and psychology behind it. But before we get started, Dr. Leigh Miller, I would like to kind of delve into a little bit about you for our listeners who may not be aware of who you are, but what inspired you to explore the psychology of sex and relationships? What led you down that path? So I went to graduate school to study social psychology and specifically focus on the psychology of romantic relationships. So relationships was something that was of great interest to me, but it was interesting.
I found during my graduate studies that I was studying relationships, but no one was really talking about sex, which is kind of weird because sex is really a huge component of most people's relationships. And so it seemed like this kind of missing, neglected area. And in fact, when you look at a lot of the models and theories scientifically of relationships, many of them just don't even mention sex at all. You know, part of what inspired me to go into this was that, you know, it was just kind of this curious omission that no one was really talking about sex.
And, you know, I also realized in graduate school, I knew nothing about sex either, because I went to Catholic schools for a lot of my upbringing and formal education. And so I didn't get anything in the way of formal sex ed, except for that day in the fifth grade where they separated the boys and the girls and told us totally different things about sex and nothing that was ever really useful. I remember that day so distinctly. I was so excited for sex ed. I pulled out my notebook and I wrote sex ed in really big letters at the top of the page.
And by the end of the course, I realized I had written nothing because I left more confused than I went in. So when I was a graduate student at a big state university in the US, I had this opportunity to be a teaching assistant for a human sexuality course. And that was really my first, in my mid-20s, my first real exposure to scientifically based sex ed. And that course just opened up my eyes to how little I knew, how little most other people know, and how there's just such a need for more scientific research in this area.
So, you know, that's another big thing that really inspired me to go this route was just that recognition of how important this topic is and how little most people know about it. That is amazing. And it is important to note for everybody listening as well that Dr. Lehmann Miller is actually an award-winning educator. You've been honoured three times with Certificate of Teaching Excellence at Harvard University. This is no joke. I mean, you have, as you said, explored something that you thought was missing from the relationship, education, and then taken this to a whole new level.
So thank you for all that you do. Now, you mentioned there a little bit about your Catholic upbringing, and we've just actually moved from Singapore to Europe. We're now in Croatia. And I can tell you now that the curriculum for 2021 for sexual education in Singapore is still abstinence. And that's kind of what they're doing there. I mean, even now in 2021, they're not really educating, you know, students on sexuality, what it is, I mean, let alone safe sex. And so my question to you is, how did you grow up? Did you grow up in a sexually open home?
Was sex positivity and openness something that you were familiar with? Or did you have to, even with your own self really work on this and and grow as you've also been through your education yeah so in my own home environment growing up sex wasn't something that was really talked about it was a pretty taboo topic of conversation it wasn't like there were sex books around that I could consult like I think my only resource was to look up this dusty set of encyclopedias we had in the basement. The Encyclopedia Britannica? Yep, that was my go-to source of sex book back then.
Because the internet, we didn't really get it in our home until I was in my mid-teens. And we had this America Online subscription with five hours per month total for the entire family to use. And, you know, there was always somebody else sitting at the computer with you. So even like when the internet came into our home, it wasn't like a place I could even go to look up things about sex. So, you know, I learned mostly through the limited sources that I had and through friends.
And I think that's a big part of the reason why even going into my 20s, I still knew so little about sex because I just didn't have any reliable sources of information. Now, I will say that, you know, even though sex wasn't something that my parents and I really talked about much growing up, my parents are very proud of me as a sex educator now. And, you know, we have much more open conversations and discussions now than we did when I was growing up. So I'm very thankful that they're supportive of my career path. Fantastic. That's actually really, really interesting.
And thank you for sharing that piece, because I was curious how, you know, your family would have reacted to the direction that you've gone. And it's fantastic that they are so supportive. I love that. I was just going to say a funny story. I wrote an article for the Washington Post a couple of months back about cuckolding. And it was specifically about the Jerry Falwell Jr. scandal. And my dad was out gardening. And one of the neighbors came up to him to talk to him about my Washington Post article on cuckolding, which I got a kick out of. So my dad did too. That is hilarious. I love that.
That is amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Oh my God. And actually speaking of cuckolding, I really wanted to take a moment to really delve into this cuckolding and cuckqueening in particular. And I know that you've done a lot of research, you've written a lot of articles about this, and we've noticed that it is becoming more popular. Okay, and just one look at kind of Google statistics or podcast downloads will definitely show you that cuckolding is up there in terms of the searched items.
In some research, however, we've personally been confused by what cuckolding is, and I know some of our listeners might be as well and one of those confusing confusing items was that the relationship to humiliation and just to give you i guess a quick kind of you know delve back into our relationship from monogamy to non-monogamy back in i think you know circa six years ago my partner came to me and he said oh i'm interested in cock holding and i went online and I googled it and it said humiliation and of course I went to him and I was like really and he said no no no that's actually not what I mean it's more hot wifing so I really really want to delve into this with you take away some of those misunderstandings and there is a lot of data out there that that is just I guess inappropriate or non-truths and so we really want to talk about that.
My first question is, in your understanding, in your opinion, what is cuckolding at its core? Cuckolding is a term that some people might define in somewhat different ways, and that's okay. And that's true when we're talking about anything that falls under the umbrella of consensual non-monogamy. Everybody's got their own definition. So for me, I use the term consensual non-monogamy as the umbrella term for any type of relationship where there is explicit agreement amongst the partners that there can be more than one sexual and or romantic connection at a time.
And so obviously swinging falls under this umbrella, polyamory, open relationships, but also also cuckolding and when we think about cuckolding it usually takes the form of one partner watching their partner have sex with somebody else and it's not necessarily just watching though sometimes it's listening right so maybe you're listening to your partner have sex in the next room with someone else. It can also take the form of maybe your partner goes out and has sex with somebody else, but then they tell you about it when they come home.
So when we talk about cuckolding, it's kind of this diverse set of sexual practices, but it involves some form of partner sharing and taking sexual pleasure or enjoyment in your partner having sex with somebody else. And there might be a BDSM component to that. Thank you.
sharing and taking sexual pleasure or enjoyment in your partner having sex with somebody else and there might be a bdsm component to that there might not be i think colloquially a lot of people use the term hot wifing to refer to a variant of cuckolding where there isn't any bdsm and where the motivations are a little bit different so when people talk about hot wifing where they're usually talking about a a man who a heterosexual man who is sharing his wife or girlfriend with another man there's no bdsm component there but instead he's often getting a self-esteem boost or an ego boost from knowing that other men find his partner to be attractive and also knowing that she might be going out and having sex with other people but is still coming home to him.
So there's kind of like that status component that often goes along with hot wifing but also in hot wifing there's often big emphasis on the partner's pleasure as what is one of the key factors that gives that person pleasure. So knowing that your partner is happy makes you happy. So it's sort of this element of compersion. That's actually a really interesting way to describe cock-holding because when we talk about the swinging lifestyle, we always talk about the fact that there is such a broad depth in the way that people would approach it.
Not everybody is the same how they approach the swinging lifestyle. So I love the fact that you're saying cock-holding is essentially the same thing. People approach it different ways. What would you say, in all of the research that you've done over the years, some of the biggest misconceptions that people would have about cockholding, maybe that they've come to you and they've asked you questions or that you've just, you know, read articles online and seen, what would you say are the biggest misconceptions and some things perhaps that we need to talk about today and break down? Yeah.
So I think one of them is that a lot of people think of all these forms of consensual non-monogamy as being totally separate and distinct. Like they put cuckolding into one group, swinging into another, polyamory into another, open relationships into another. And never they shall meet. But there's kind of fuzzy boundaries. Yes, there's very fuzzy boundaries here. And for example, you could be a swinger but also engage in cuckolding sometimes. And, you know, these boundaries can also be fluid where, you know, for example, you could be an open relationship that becomes polyamorous.
And so I think we tend to get a little bit too hung up on labels. It's also led to some infighting in the consensual non-monogamy community where some people think of their form as being superior to all of the others. And I just think that that's so not a productive conversation or argument to have. You know, one form of consensual non-monogamy is no more valid or inherently superior to another. So that would be one misconception.
Another big one that I get very specific to buckholding is, is it normal to be turned on by this idea of watching or listening to your partner have sex with somebody else and i hear that all the time especially from men and the answer to that is that yes it is so for my book tell me what you want i surveyed more than 4 000 americans from all 50 states ranging in age from 18 to 87 i asked them about their sexual fantasies hundreds of different questions about this and included in there were questions about cuckolding and what i found was that a majority of people who identified as men across sexual orientations and fantasized about cuckolding before and a substantial number of men said that cuckolding was something they fantasize about often or it was their favorite sexual fantasy of all time so yes it's normal in the sense of being common to be turned on by this and of course there are also women who are turned on by this as well the numbers for women are a little lower so for example when you look at heterosexually identified men and women it's just over half of the men who fantasized about this compared to closer to a third of women so there is a gender difference but it's normal for people to be turned on by this and actually that is one of the things i really wanted to talk to you about today dr lamela is the psychology of why someone might want to be cock-holded because we do get questions and we see it on the forums about people saying is this okay am i okay here's my sexual desires and i am i wrong in this and so we've read a little bit about sperm competition theory about you know men but it's obviously not just men who want to be cocked it's there's there's queens as well so if you were to try and help people understand the psychology of wanting this what would you say to that person out there who's wanting to experience this or having these feelings but they're not quite sure about whether or not it's valid whether it's okay whether this is you know quote-unquote normal so like i said it's normal to have the fantasy in the sense that a lot of other people have it now the question of whether you want to act on that fantasy is a totally different one and you know we can talk about that more a little bit later because acting on fantasies is a totally different thing from sharing them and it's a totally different thing from just having them and enjoying them uh you know during solo play or masturbation so yes like just in terms of whether it's common yes it absolutely is and in terms of where it comes from this is something that I dive into in the book is to look at what is the psychology behind our sexual fantasies.
And our fantasies have very complex origins. They are influenced in part by evolutionary factors like sperm competition. They are influenced by the culture and society in which we live. And, you know, for example, one of the big things that people find to be a sexual turn on is doing something that is taboo, something they're not supposed to do. And sharing your partner sexually with somebody else is definitely something you're not supposed to do in a culture that prizes and idealizes monogamy.
And so that taboo element, you know, the fact that we're told that you shouldn't be doing this is part of what makes cuckolding erotically appealing, but it's about more than that, right? So there might be evolutionary and cultural factors that play a role, but there's also the fact in history of your own sexual experiences. like what have you learned to be aroused by through your past sexual history and also what is your personality type you know what are your unique sexual and psychological needs? Because all of those things can factor into the types of fantasies you have.
So in the case of cuckolding, I see that these fantasies are linked to having a lot of other specific types of fantasies.
So for example, if you're really into voyeurism,ism you know just you're turned on by watching other people undress or have sex you're more likely to have cuckolding fantasies and also there's a link to bds fantasies where people who are into cuckolding tend to have more submissive and masochistic fantasies and so i think part of the appeal of cuckolding for some people is that it's a way of sort of combining a bunch of unique interests all into one, because you've got that taboo element, you've got the voyeuristic element, and then also for some that BDSM element.
And so I think that's part of it is that it's like this really unique way to express a lot of fantasies at the same time. And that was actually a question I had, Justin, was what role does humiliation, submission, dominance play have in a cock-holding relationship? And as you just kind of explained, it's variable. You know, it really depends on the individual. It depends on their sexual preferences and can have it or you can not have it. You know, the humiliation aspect in particular.
So that is, it's super interesting to talk about the different ways that people have it, because you are correct. I think that we often pigeonhole certain areas of even consensual non-monogamy. And I was on the Multi Emery podcast a little while ago, and I used the analogy of throwing stones in glass houses between consensual non-monogamy.
And I think you hit the nail on the head earlier by that some of us seem to be assuming that our version of that is is the dominant or better version so I love that you are of that same opinion and thank you very much for sharing that going back to the 50 percent of men responded favorably to being cocked and 25 percent of women if you were to perhaps bring up the idea of cock-holding to your partner, my question is how would one person be able to present the idea of cock-holding to their partner perhaps without feelings of jealousy, anxiety, you know, being undesired and, you know, with a caveat of that I do understand that some jealousy feelings is actually also quite sexually arousing as well but if you had somebody out there who was listening to this podcast and had these these feelings these desires did you have any information or advice to them on how they might be able to bring this up to their partner about yeah I get asked this question a lot I've had many people who are readers of my sex and psychology blog write to me and say I really want to watch my partner partner have sex with someone else.
How do I get them to do that? I'm like, okay, let's step back here. There's a few steps and things that need to happen first before you come out and propose an idea like this to your partner.
And so I think as a useful starting point, if you're going to get into the business of sharing fantasies with your partner, and I think there's lot of potential benefits to be had through that for example i see in my research that people who are sharing and acting on their fantasies are more sexually satisfied they're happier in their relationships they have fewer sexual problems and difficulties and so you know they're really doing well in a lot of ways and so getting more in touch with our fantasies incorporating them into our relationships in some way can bring some benefits but you have to approach that cautiously because there are potential risks that go along with the potential rewards so when it comes to sharing a fantasy like this i think it's important to first have really good sexual communication in your relationship and you know have that trust and intimacy and so if you're just getting started sharing fantasies don't come out with the most adventuresome ones right away maybe start at the more vanilla end of the spectrum and use that as an opportunity to learn about each other to build up the communication the trust and all of that stuff that's going to be necessary later on when you start getting to the more adventuresome desires.
It's also important to think about the way you frame the fantasy.
So when people present a sexual fantasy, any fantasy to their partner, it's not uncommon for a partner to feel insecure or threatened by that because they might be thinking, their thought process might be, well, clearly they're not happy with me or the relationship or they're dissatisfiedatisfied and so they take it personally so i think when you're sharing fantasies it's really important to validate your partner in the process let them know how sexy and attractive you think they are and how the sex that you're having is great and you know use that as a way of then introducing the fantasy and then also talk about what your partner's getting out of it too you know don't just make the conversation all about you and like here's this thing that i want to do what's in it for them um so i think that you know those can be useful starting points and also choosing your time and place appropriately when you're sharing fantasies is another key one ideally do it when you're both already sexually aroused not like first thing in the morning over the breakfast table or at dinner when you're out in public when other people can overhear.
So choose a private, quiet location where you can have an intimate chat and where you're both already sexually aroused. That's great advice.
Actually, one of the things that we joke about on the podcast is if you are thinking about bringing up the idea of any kind of consensual non-monogamy is don't do it when one person is literally putting the kids dinner down and you know trying to get the lunches ready or putting everybody to bed or giving everybody showered you know pick a pick a time and a place to have these conversations so yeah it's it's funny that you you kind of echo that that sentiment well and there's another reason for. And it's because when we're sexually aroused, our disgust response goes down.
So things that you might normally find to be gross or disgusting become less so when you're turned on.
And so when you're sharing things like fantasies, you're likely to encounter less resistance if you're sharing it at a time when you're both already in that state of arousal and disgust responses go down you know this is also part of the reason why when people watch pornography while they're masturbating like as soon as they orgasm it's like they can't close out of the window fast enough right because that disgust response comes flooding back right and so you can use that to your advantage when you're having sexual conversations with your partners uh you know to choose that right timing of when to bring new things up i have never heard the term disgust response before and it actually makes so much sense to me and as you were saying that i was thinking immediately porn you know i used to have this joke with a with an old flatmate of mine and i said it's like eating fast food you know really greasy burgers it feels really good while you're doing it but then afterwards you kind of feel a bit disgusting I liken that every now and then to some porn that you might watch and as you said before it's like okay I've had the endorphin rush and I've orgasmed now and like now I've got to get back to my daily life you know I couldn't possibly enjoy that porn so no that's that's fantastic thank you and I will be doing a little bit more research on that disgust factor.
It's fascinating. You mentioned earlier about having these desires and having these feelings, but maybe not necessarily playing them out in real life. And it's actually something that we talk about a lot is having these fantasies with your partner, but it doesn't necessarily mean you need to bring somebody else in the bedroom.
So what I want to talk about now for our next section is the role that sex toys might play in discovering your own sexuality, your sexuality with your partner, how they can treat sexual difficulties and the stigma in particular of men using sex toys and that can be a little bit taboo because sex toys traditionally have been marketed towards women. So let's talk about that for a little while, Justin. In your experience, why do you think there is a taboo or stigma, particularly behind men using sex toys, either as a solo single man or even within a relationship?
So I think part of the stigma comes from the fact that a lot of men perceive sex toys as threatening, right?
oh and we're talking about heterosexually identified men here um you know if you look at gay and bisexual men they actually have much greater uptake and usage of sex toys uh so this taboo this stigma around men's sex toy use is pretty specific to heterosexually identified men and like i said i think part of it for them is it's kind of often perceived as a threat to their masculinity where if their partner their female partner is using a vibrator or dildo or other sex toy that it means that he is inadequate or insufficient or maybe he feels threatened because the toy is bigger than his genitalia so i think there's a lot of that that's wrapped up in it but i think there's also a bit of homophobia um that's kind of wrapped up in it as well where maybe they see sex toys as and using them and especially if it's toys relating to anal play like that would make them gay right if they were to explore and experiment with sex toys so i think you know we're dealing with a of different things here, but ultimately I think there's a lot of insecurity that plays into this resistance to use sex toys, which is why we need to reset the narrative, right?
There's nothing that you should feel threatened about if your partner enjoys using sex toys and it doesn't make you gay or change your sexual orientation if you use a sex toy, right?
So we need to script here exactly 100 and actually if there are men out there listening because again we are in a lot of forums we have a lot of different groups that we talk to and of course sex toys come it comes up often you know you meet somebody at a swingers club and they're likely to say to you hey what's your favorite sex toy because people are interested in not only what's out there and available but also it kind of gives you a bit of a key indicator on how that person likes to be pleasured themselves.
But if somebody's out there listening, a particular man that maybe doesn't have sex toys, whether that's a sleeve or it could be an anal toy, what would you suggest to them? How do they get over that taboo of personally using a sex toy? It's a good question. And I think, you know, part of the advice here is that you approach it the same way as you approach incorporating fantasies into your relationship where you start low and go slow. And, you know, I think this is a mistake that people sometimes make when they're buying sex toys. We call it this of their gender or sexual orientation.
They get the biggest, baddest toy in the block. The biggest dildo. toy they can possibly find it's like you know maybe that's too much and you know that's one of the wonderful things about sex toys today is that there are so many different options that are out there for you know beginners to you know more advanced than experienced users and so I think it starts just kind of by dipping your toes in the water a little bit, thinking about sex toys as a way of just incorporating some novelty into your sex life or your masturbation routine, and also allowing you to explore your body more.
Because a lot of us think we know what we like and enjoy when it comes to sex, but sometimes you don't know until you try it or experience it so sex toys can be a great way of expanding your sexual menu introducing you to different sensations and so think about it from that lens like how toys can enhance your sex life so i would encourage you know somebody who's maybe a newbie or novice at this uh to just start by going out and exploring the variety of sex toys that exist because i think you know there are sometimes myths and misconceptions about toys like maybe they only think about sex toys as being vibrators or dildos but there's so many different options beyond that and ways that you can use them and incorporate them so you might uh check out a sex toy retailer like love honey that has like this very extensive collection of you know different types of toys designed for different types of stimulation whether it's stimulation of the penis or the prostate and you know it can be something that's vibrating and remote controlled if you want to get high tech with it but maybe if you're just starting out maybe it's just a masturbation sleeve um or a cock ring or you know just something that adds a little bit of newness and difference and you can also buy partner toys right where you can try things out with your partner at the same time and for some people that might be an easier way to go because you're both getting something out of it so couples vibrators can be a great way to go as well yeah i do like the idea of starting starting small and i remember the first sleeve i actually bought daryl was a tanga egg and and then from there we've kind of gotten a little bit more high tech you know and a little bit more expensive with the toys that we've that we've bought but we are big advocates of people trying them and it's actually funny justin because i actually as as the, I prefer and I get very excited about him using toys more than probably he enjoys them himself.
And so it's funny because when we do get a new male sex toy, I'm really eager to give it a go. And I like seeing his expression and I like seeing him explore that. And he's probably less inclined. He's like, yeah, I mean, it's fine, but it's not fantastic. And I, I always find that to be a bit interesting and it does lead me to an interesting point that as females, cis females, we're normally perhaps not used to, we might have a dildo or we might have a vibrator and some sex toys in our arsenal, but we're not used to perhaps our male counterparts having sex toys.
So flipping the switch, if you were to talk to the female listeners out there, what advice would you give to them perhaps who might then see that sex toy as almost competition again to themselves if the male partner gets a sleeve, et cetera? What would you say to them about how to explore sex toys with their partner? It's a great question. And you're right that sometimes the taboo and stigma of men's sex toy use can also come from women and maybe feeling threatened or insecure about that. So again, to flip the script and think about this in a different way.
So one thing that research has shown is that usage of sex toys can actually help men perform better in bed. So for example, use of masturbation sleeves can help men to develop better ejaculatory control.
So talking about a guy who experiences orgasm prematurely on a routine basis, by using the sex toys, he can actually help to build up better ejaculatory control that can help him last longer in bed that might help you to have more pleasurable and satisfying encounters together right so you know that's one way that sex toys can benefit both of you um but also when people try new and different things together in the bedroom having a novel and arousing experience really takes our arousal levels to a much higher level than they are at baseline because human beings are inherently turned on by novelty and adding a sex toy is an easy way to just throw something new into the mix to create a more immersive experience to explore different sensations and so it's a great way of dealing with this loss of passion that we see happen over time in most long-term relationships right because the Because the novelty is kind of wearing off to some extent.
So by continuing to mix it up, trying new toys, experiencing different sensations, you can fight against that and help to really keep the passion and excitement alive while also exploring your body and figuring out what does and doesn't work and what you do and don't like.
That is fantastic advice because I like the fact that you said there that you know we are interested in the in the taboo and something as simple perhaps as a new sex toy for one person it could as you said before it could be a male sex toy it could be a female sex toy a big couple sex toy does i think bring inherently bring you closer to exploring new things because daryl and i always say and we joke and we say that the travel version of kate and daryl are the best versions of our relationship because we're traveling we don't have you know the the pressures of everyday life back home we don't have to clean up after ourselves because we're in a hotel and i i almost find that sex toys are a similar version of that it's a form of escapism as well from you know your standard kind of guess, maintenance sex that you might have as a couple that have been together for a longer time.
So I absolutely appreciate what you're saying there, that it's a little bit exciting and a little bit taboo and a bit different and it can really work with you, which does bring me to a topic that I really want to talk to you about, which is exploring your fantasies with sex toys. A lot of people, I'm assuming, to you, they definitely come to us and they say, we want to talk about this, we want to share our desires, but we're not necessarily sure we want to add another person to our bedroom.
So how can sex toys help people explore perhaps the swinging lifestyle or, you know, consensual non-monogamy or cock holding without necessarily actually bringing somebody into the bedroom? Yeah, it's a great question. And I think part of it depends on what it is that you and your partner find most arousing or appealing about the idea of cuckolding. And so, you know, some people are just really turned on by watching their partner.
And some people are really turned on by exhibitionism you know performing for an audience and so if you think about it you know one way that you could kind of dip your toes in the water is you know the partner who wants to be cuckolded can take that voyeuristic role and they can watch their partner just pleasure themselves with a sex toy right so it's sort of simulating that cuckolding experience to a degree without necessarily bringing another person into the bedroom so that can be you know kind of a handy way to to dip your toe in the water and to see how you feel about it and and you know whether you might enjoy taking that a step further uh so so that's one way to go i mean of course there can also be other ways that you could try this out uh without necessarily like inviting somebody else into bed you know and and that could take place virtually and you know online uh or you know could um you know take place where you're having sex in one room with your partner and you know there's people in another room who are also having sex where it's you know kind of like separate and distinct but you can hear like them having sex you know again it kind of depends on what it is that you're turned on by and what you really want to get out of the experience but there's all kinds of ways that you can kind of test the waters and see where your comfort zone and level is before inviting other people into bed and i've also found as well that in in that role play scenario, we've been experimenting a lot recently with virtual reality porn.
And I do think that that is a way that, again, you could be using sex toys whilst the person, you know, is having that virtual reality porn and it's pretending, it's kind of that role play that somebody else is in the bedroom. And just kind of feel out, does that satisfy your desires without necessarily needing to invite other people? I think it's a fantastic resource that we have now in 2021. And my God, I don't even know where the world's going to go with sex dolls in the future. I'm really looking forward to that.
Yeah, I mean, and that's going to be one of the really fascinating things going forward is what are the new and next innovations in sex toys and virtual reality porn and how will this allow us to differently engage with our sexual fantasies and you know maybe that's going to be the new testing ground is that you can try it out in a vr format before you actually you know do something in person yeah exactly exactly now justin you have written the book tell me what you want the science of sexual desire and how it can help improve your sex life i've read it i'm a big fan of it and before we close out today's podcast i kind of want to get a bit personal with you to finish off and i want to know what's next for dr and justin lay miller what's coming next what can you share with us any any uh insight into next direction in 2021?
Well, I've got a lot of irons in the fire. Now, something that was interesting when the book came out, I thought I was just going to move into writing the next book. But then I became known as the fantasy guy and started getting invited to teach all of these lectures and workshops on fantasies. And I found that I really enjoy that and that, you know, this is a way of taking things a step further than what's in the book.
And so part of what I'm developing now is actually some online courses that I'm going to have on my website this year where we can go into greater depth and detail about maybe specific types of fantasies and what you need to know if you're really thinking about acting them out or sharing them with a partner. So that's part of what I'm working on. I also have some multimedia things that I'm considering. So I've expanded into the world of podcasting recently, which I found to be really fun, especially during this pandemic. I've been blogging for about a decade.
But, you know, blogging is like a very solo activity and i found to be really fun especially during this pandemic oh i mentioned that i've been blogging for about a decade but you know blogging is like a very solo activity and i found i love podcasting because i actually get to interact with other people and you know not being able to leave my house very much i found that that's really exciting so i've been investing a lot more in that you know my goal this year is to have a new episode come out every week whereas in the past you know podcasting was this very sporadic thing i did now i found i just love it but i'm also working on a wide range of of other things some i can't really talk about yet but hoping that i can share them with you a little bit later this year you tease you little tease all right we like that we'll definitely be keeping it i'll keep one eye awake and on what you're doing then but that sounds i really like the fact that you're delving into specific fetishes as well because i think it is it remains a very taboo subject that you know people might say hey i want to be consensually non-monogamous ethically non-monogamous or even as a solo person i want to explore this particular thing but specific fetishes then there's there's not necessarily a lot of information out there digging into that.
So I think that's definitely going to be a fantastic resource. And personally, I'm really looking forward to that. So I'll be definitely keeping an eye on that. I always like to challenge the norm as we exit our podcast, each different interview that we do. So my question to you is if you could change one thing about humans and our idea of sexuality, what would it be? Just one thing. And I know there's a broad range of things that you could pick everything from the LGBTQI right through to fetishes. But if you were to pick something, what would it be that you could change?
Oh gosh, that's such a hard question. I know. There's so many things that are wrong and that I would like to change. But I think if I have to reduce it to one thing, it would be we need to get rid of the sexual shame. Because I think that shame is what causes so many of our sexual and relationship problems, where, for example, we feel our fantasies aren't normal and that there's something wrong with us. And then that prevents us from not just getting what we want in bed, but from ever really opening up with our partners and developing a deeper level of intimacy.
And so, you know, the more of the shame that we carry around, I think the more mentally taxing it is and the less likely we are to be happy and satisfied in our intimate lives. So, yeah, if I could change one thing, it would be let's get rid of some of that shame or all of it if we can. That gave me goosebumps. That's beautiful. And I could not agree more. And thank you so much for sharing that. You answered that question like a breeze. That's supposed to be a really hard question. You just got it in one. Thank you. Well, you know, I've been asked that question a few times.
I've never given that answer before, but I think in the back of my mind, I've had a chance to think through, what should that be? And you helped me perfect it. Oh, fantastic. Well, I will take that. And the recording will be available should you want to play that back as your morning mantra while you're having your coffee. I'd just like. I would like to very much thank Dr. Justin Lehmiller for joining the podcast. There are going to be a ton of links in the show notes today, everything from the Sex and Psychology blog, which please do go and check that out.
The Tell Me What You Want book, definitely check that out. Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Instagram, you name it, we're going to have those links in the show notes today.
And again, we really do appreciate your time coming on the podcast talking to us about cock holding the psychology behind it but just really even sharing your research because it is valuable to share with the general community out there who may not know a lot about this particular topic or maybe having these feelings and don't really know what to do with them so thank you so much for coming on it was my pleasure to be here thanks so much for having me so thank you very much guys and we'll see you soon all right again guys i really hope that you enjoyed that interview thank you for hanging in there a couple of updates from us yes we are based in croatia now so we are living in zagreb croatia hence the wanderlust swingers name change so we are going to soon be exploring more of the european kind of approach to the swinging lifestyle so you can expect some episodes relating to the dating sites over here relating to how people approach the dating lifestyle the swinging lifestyle and then once covid settles down hopefully some information about clubs events parties and things in europe our next episode is going to be about foursome play and a butt plug experience that we had in singapore before we left we are going to get that to you guys soon we are in the middle of a patreon drive as well guys we are trying to get a few more patreon members so if you're out there and you're interested in supporting the podcast and all the information that we're bringing you please head over to patreon.com forward swinging down under, and you can sponsor the podcast for as little as a dollar a month, and we really appreciate all of your support.
Thank you to all of our existing patrons for hanging in there throughout 2020. A really interesting year for the lifestyle, definitely, and certainly for our podcast as well, and we look forward to bringing you guys even more exciting content in 2021 as we continue our journey as being Wanderlust Swingers. All right, guys, that's it from us. We'll see you soon. We'll speak to you soon. We hope that you are staying healthy, happy and horny. And we will be back with more episodes. Bye, guys.
