Want to send us a message? Why does a piece of chocolate trigger the same brain chemical as meeting someone new at a swinger party?This episode reveals the surprising neuroscience behind New Relationship Energy, dopamine addiction, and why the swinging lifestyle can feel impossible to walk away from. Ed and Phoebe break down the science of pleasure—from that 55% dopamine spike you get from chocolate to the 1000% surge from harder substances—and explain why novelty in the lifestyle hijacks your brain s reward system exactly like a drug.In this episode of Swinger University, we explore the powerful connection between dopamine, addiction, and ethical non-monogamy, discussing why NRE feels so intoxicating, how constant stimulation affects your mental health, and practical strategies for maintaining balance in the lifestyle. Whether you re new to the swinging lifestyle, experienced in ethical non-monogamy, or simply curious about the brain chemistry behind attraction and novelty-seeking, this conversation will help you understand what s really happening in your head when you can t stop thinking about that new connection.What You ll Learn in This Episode:The exact dopamine percentages: chocolate (55%), sex (100%), nicotine (1.5x), cocaine (2.25x), and amphetamines (10x)Why New Relationship Energy creates thoughts and feelings you can t control—and how long it typically lastsThe pleasure paradox : how constant dopamine hits from social media, food, and the lifestyle create chronic deficit statesReal stories of NRE intensity, FOMO at swinger events, and why some people need breaks from the lifestyleHow novelty, secrecy, quantity, and access all amplify your brain s reward responsePractical strategies for seeking balance: recognizing addiction patterns, pacing yourself, and knowing when to step backWhy comparison is killing your enjoyment and how to focus on your own experience📝 Read the full transcript: https://swingeruniversity.com/the-one-chemical-behind-chocolate-swinging-and-addictionReferences: Anna Lembke, The Paradox of Pleasure - Hidden Brain MediaCatherine from Expansive Connection - co-author on outline Support the showWant More?👀 Watch on YouTube: YouTube ShowFull video versions and interactive live episodes!Bonus episodes, exclusive content, and 🌶️Extras: https://www.patreon.com/SwingerUniversity 🛳️🎉Looking for lifestyle events in your area? T4P is the go-to directory for clubs, parties, and resort events. Browse now at Ticket4Play.com Custom SU T-shirts and gear: Our Amazon StoreSwingerLinks.com - live schedule, special offers*, and our 🌶️links!Our Website - Leave us a message, articles, and sexy products3 Ways to get your question on our show:RECORD it on our website at: https://swingeruniversity.com/contact/EMAIL a recorded voice note to: [email protected]: (916) 538-0482 and leave a voicemail.* We get a commission if you decide to purchase through our links, at no cost to you.
Transcript
We have to talk about something we've been genuinely excited about for months, and our patrons actually got a preview of this already. Jamaica! Yes, we are going back, and actually, we have a great offer for you guys. Yeah, it's Swingcation. It's October 11th through the 18th at Hedonism 2. And if you don't know what Swingcation is, it's pretty easy. Swinger plus kink plus vacation. It's a hosted group with real structure, workshops, lectures, real conversations with experts who are passionate about bringing and bridging that gap between the swinger world and the kink world.
And we're not just going as attendees. We're going as featured presenters, which is exciting. We'll be leading sessions. So if you come, we actually get to hang out with you. Which brings up something we should mention. When you use our code, yes, we got a code, you're not just getting a discount. You're getting the signature swing experience, which means $100 off per person, up to $200 per room, but it also means that we make time for you. An exclusive breakfast, lunch, cocktail hour, or one-hour and one time with us directly, plus more surprise benefits.
Here's something that's really unique. You could actually contribute by hosting a discussion or running a Skillshare. I know it's scary, but if you have something that you want to contribute, that's a big part of why this event is so special. Everyone there has something to bring to the table. All right, details. If you book before April 25th, you save $400. Plus, they gave us that special code that gets you an additional $200, and the special code is SWINGERU-VIP. So book through TicketForPlay.com forward slash Swinky. That's T-I-C-K-E-T, the number four, play.com forward slash S-W-I-N-K-Y.
And use our code at checkout. And you guys, if you have any questions about the event, the resort, or what to expect, just reach out. I mean, we're here for you. We're happy to help. So once again, TicketForPlay.com forward slash Swinky, the code SwingerU-VIP. We really want to see you there. It's this powerful cocktail that like hits us like cocaine. Oh, you know, I want a little piece of chocolate. Oh, well, now your dopamine levels just went up 55%. That's a thousand percent over your baseline dopamine level. I felt it bigly. Oh boy. God, it feels like, like I'm a teenager again.
The spike is less and less, but you need more to get high. Having sex in a hot air balloon. Never done that before. Welcome to Swinger University. I'm Ed. And I'm Phoebe. Today is going to be really fascinating because we dive into NRE or new relationship energy. We talk about some novelty aspects of the lifestyle and how that really kind of triggers all of the pleasure centers in your brain and we're gonna talk about a pleasure paradox yep we're gonna talk about chasing dopamine and of course the whole addictive aspect of ethical non-monogamy. So it's going to be fun.
We're going to have a good time with it. Let's talk about this a little bit. We've talked about new relationship energy before from the aspect of you and single males, the hot wife aspect of it. Right. And did you want me to elaborate? Sure, let's talk a little bit about single males or your hot wife experience.
Well, let's go into a little bit first and then i'll provide that as an example okay i was excited to talk about you and i know i know so with the new relationship energy scientific uh chemical thing that goes on with all of us You've got your dopamine, your serotonin, your norepinephrine. Oh, wow. Now you got me all tongue-tied. Norepinephrine. That's it. I can't look at your phonetics. I have to just say it. and and then that that equals desire and attraction. Right. And then the oxytocin creates the bonding. Right. And so it's this powerful cocktail that hits us like cocaine. Yeah.
And there's a book I was reading called Dopamine Nation by Anna Lem lemke she's a md and she had some really fascinating data in this book i highly recommend it some of the this was fascinating to me i want to call this out let's just say you're well your dopamine levels are like at your base level right let's just talk about your normal baseline you wake up in the morning and you've had your cup of coffee and you're at your normal level of whatever what is that yeah right you're just normal baseline right okay so after you had your cup of coffee you decided oh you don't want a little piece of chocolate oh well now your dopamine levels just went up 55 55 just from a piece of chocolate now let's say oh come by 10 o'clock you're feeling a little frisky you work you work with your your partner at home and you're like i want a little or maybe it's lunchtime and you're like i want want a little...
Or maybe it's lunchtime, and you're like, I want a little nooner. I want to take a break. Oh, now your dopamine just went up 100% over your baseline. Right. Fascinating. I didn't know this. Now, after your little rendezvous between the sheets, you're like, oh, I could really use a cigarette right now. That was just fabulous. Oh, that's 150% over your baseline. Right. Now, what I don't know is, is it additive? Like, does the chocolate with the sex with the cigarette make it 300% over? I mean, is it accumulative? Maybe. Could be. I don't know. Thank you. 300% over? Right.
I mean, is it accumulative? Maybe. Could be. I don't know. That's a very good question. At a party, let's just say you're a smoker. You go out, you have a smoke, and you come back in, and you're into the white fluffy stuff called snow. The snow is going to add an extra 225% over your normal baseline. So now you've had the 150 with the nicotine, you've had your 225. Now you're up, wow, into 500 or so percent. Right. I think that was correct math. Maybe not. Might not, not quite that close.
If you want to take it up even more and you're into amphetamines, that's a thousand percent over your baseline dopamine level. Right. Which is crazy. Right. And that really kind of nails why some people get addicted to the drugs because it is such a, it's a brain high, right? It's's releasing all of these feel-good chemicals up in your brain. Now, of course, we don't mention the side effects of like cocaine, which is severe wallet anxiety and loss. And when you don't talk about amphetamine, which is loss of dental work and, you know.
Is that the scratching of the face or is that something else? Yeah, it'll happen with that too, right? So severe facial dismemberment, it typically happens with methamphetamines. So dopamine can hit pretty darn hard and it can last. I mean, as a swinger, you could be doing this for six months or five years. I mean, going at it, it could, it could be pretty darn steady. Right. And, and as you go, depending on how often you're doing things and when you're doing them, for how long you're doing them, the length could vary.
You've got the people, the events, the resorts, and the types of relationships that are all going to be different factors for your dopamine high. Right. So here's some factors that we can talk about. So one of the things that you can think about is if you live in an area that has maybe a lifestyle club, where you could go every week, like every Saturday night, that's your thing. That means Saturday night, you're guaranteed to see stuff that's going to increase that dopamine level in your head and you are signed up for it.
So if you've got that need, that addiction to that feeling, every week, every week you're there. And then you start to wonder, how long can you sustain that?
How long can you keep that up so yeah and I think later in the episode I'm not sure if I talk about it down there but I probably do but I was starting to think about when there's a there's a certain amount that of that addiction comes in where you've gone to that club and you've seen and felt and had an experience and now you bring that home and now it's in your brain and so now memory the sound now when you think about it it instantly triggers that same response and with true addiction all you have to do is think about it correct and you want it which is why the step programs are so important for addicts because you really do have to change your habits drastically you have to change your you have to beef up your support system change all your friends remove yourself from those environments because you're still going to have your, and reach out to your sponsor.
Because when you think about it, it actually, your body starts to feel the craving or feel that need because of the brain is powerful. It's the brain drugs, the chemicals. The chemical drugs, yeah. So let's talk about this. Wait. Well, am I going to talk about the single male? Well, that's what I was going to get into. Oh, okay. We've talked about the chemical aspect of it, but we haven't really talked about, well, how does that apply to new relationship energy? Like, what is that? Yes. Okay. So I felt it bigly. Oh, boy. You went there. I did go there.
When the single male was giving me attention, it was attention from somebody else. It was attention in a text message initially. And usually text messages don't do anything for me.
But this guy had way with words and he was very talented with were his words and you know we we met at a bar all three of us we hadn't had a you know it was great and then we set up a date and then when he came over the interaction was incredible it was lovely it was it was we had a great time it was a lot of fun but there's that was a different kind of high than what we we have experienced with a couple or in an orgy.
And I found myself thinking while I was going on walks listening to other podcasts I found myself just my mind kind of wandering and thinking about that interaction and it bothered me a bit because I didn't want that to to I didn't want to be thinking about it a lot it started to consume consume my thoughts, I felt, a little bit more during the day than I wanted to. And that made me uncomfortable. And I knew that was the chemical reaction still happening in my body. Right. And it does take probably a good three to five days for that to dissipate.
So I just waited it out and I talked with you about it. And I said, look, this, this is making me uncomfortable. Right. I don't know what to do with these feelings. I don't know what to do with these feelings. I know they're not real feelings. They're valid feelings, but they're not feelings that are going to make me change or move my mind on our connection. Right. But it was oddly weird to kind of stand outside my body and look at myself and go, God, it feels like I'm a teenager again. Yeah. It's just so powerful. It was bizarre. Yeah, yeah. I don't know.
go, God, it feels like I'm a teenager again. It's just so powerful. It was bizarre. Yeah. The triggering of that dopamine, that new experience caused your body to feel good things. The memories of that were triggering the dopamine release to be continued. Yes. And then because it was novel, it was different. Yes. That novelty also triggered you to think about it because it wasn't something that you were used to. Right. Right.
So we had a few more interactions in that regard with singles, but I decided that's probably not for me because it just, it messed, messed with my head a little bit too much. I didn't like thinking about somebody else like that in that way or looking forward to that. Now, would it have gotten better if after I got used to it over time, possibly. But how long would that take? Yeah, I don't know. Because the newness of swinging kind of dissipated for us.
Oh, I don't know know it didn't even get close to dissipating until like maybe around year 10 maybe year 11 right where we have over time been to enough events had enough experiences been to enough venues and resorts and meet and greets etc etc right that et cetera. Right. That we were kind of like, yeah, you know. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Yep. Kind of know what to expect. Yeah. That novelty had kind of worn off. Yes. It wasn't new and shiny. The new swinger smell, so to speak, kind of rubbed off a little bit. Yeah, yeah.
So, which is actually a really good segue to our next section, which is about novelty and how novelty, our brains crave novelty. They do. So that's 100% reason why everybody has their new phone every year because it's new, it's novel. Yep. And the long and short of it is, it's not much different than your existing phone. I mean, especially this particular one. Right. This year, you know, it's, oh, it's like, it's 10% thinner and it's got one hour more battery life. So companies, sales companies, organizations prey on that novelty because all of our brains crave it.
Like we live for this as human beings. And that's half the reason why NRE is so powerful because it's different. It's novel. It kind of breaks you out of your normal routine. And we like trying new things. Well, and on a scientific level, I mean, it's innate to our survival. It's part of our evolution we we we crave new foods or we need to seek new foods. We like seeking out new people and new interactions and new places. It's just part of that innateness of our being.
And so, as we said before, dopamine is going to be that primary driver it rewards the pursuit of novelty right so it's this it's quite the loop that you get going and it does dopamine release different amounts in each person so each person's reward pathway is going to be a little different and so once again what's what's you know it's not universal to everybody not everybody's going to have that same experience right in the lifestyle level of reaction that that feeling right yeah And we've, we've seen, seen, um um we had a couple that we really really liked that started off here and they just went oh yeah it was straight into orbit p and v yep they i mean you could tell they they just blasted off they started off probably at meet and greets.
Then they were hosting 20-person orgy house party things. And then... Then they were vanilla hunting. Drugs started coming into part of the experience of it all. And then, yes, then they were vanilla hunting.
And then, I mean, it just, wow they they were doing all of it and i think they may have tried dating separately even for a while so they tried all of it i don't know if they went to poly um which is always my fear is like oh my god if we start here and then we're gonna be like we don't have a big enough house to go poly i just i'm just saying you know they'd have to sleep here in the podcast room. Not that there's anything wrong with poly. I'm not inferring that at all. I just know that's not for me. My brain wouldn't be able to manage all that. My emotions wouldn't be able to manage all that.
It's a thing. Yeah, but some people are really wired for that. And I love that for them I really do so we can all get high on novelty and eventually it can be normalized as I was talking about earlier right we can get a bit desensitized as you mentioned been there done that bought the t-shirt I don't get caught up in NRE anymore because 9 out of 10 such flings don't go anywhere. And I have to be selective about taking on new people because of time and energy constraints. I get NRE from not just a connection with someone, but I'll get the NRE from just the social engagement.
Like to me, that's kind of new relationship energy as well. Right. Where you've met somebody new and they share your perspective and you're like, oh my God, you're just like me. Oh my gosh, I have the same thing. Or I think the same way, or I feel the same way. And what about X, Y, y and z so then you want to go back and you want to engage with that person um which you know sometimes people call that just friendship but yes it's it's in that social setting that gives me that that feeling that i belong the feeling of belonging and, and just acceptance and, and that's really lovely.
And, think I will always have that and I'll always miss it when I don't have it, but it's a lovely place to be. Someone asked what vanilla hunting is. Oh, so vanilla hunting is when you're, let's just say, Ed and I are at a bar and our bartender is very sexy. Let's just say it's a woman. This actually is kind of a true story. It happened and we are just you know we're waiting for our table to open up we're at the bar we're having a drink and our bartender was a woman and she was just very sexy like she was wearing sexy clothes and she her confidence so her attitude was very sexy.
She was very confident. She would smile. And I swear she would just wink at you without winking. You could tell she was just being super flirty. And she kept coming back to us. So I kept trying to have private conversations with Ed. Like, is she what do you think should we right and so she kept coming back and giving us all this extra attention and i said you know we could totally vanilla hunt her so we thought she was a non-swinger not in the lifestyle but definitely interested in us maybe she really was a swinger maybe was. Maybe she wasn't. Well, we didn't find out.
No, but the theory is you flirt with someone who's not even in the lifestyle. And snile? I said snile. In the lifestyle. I haven't even been drinking. And you convert them.
You down you hunt a vanilla even if it's only for one night one evening a little bit of fun right where you're in a bar and you're dancing and you're super flirty and all of a sudden you're dragging a single woman home dragging you know obviously with consent home to your house and she's like woohoo you know what happens one night stays you know what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas right and then off she goes and then later in her 60s she goes oh that one night in my 20s when yeah at that time that time in Vegas yeah so let's see. Another question. Oh. Oh, Ken of Ken. Ken of Ken.
I love Ken of Ken. The real NRE magic for me isn't what I chase. It's the unexpected. Like when someone you're into, but assume would never be into, tells you the same thing. Yeah, exciting that's yeah that's that unexpected oh me it's very flattering to get that kind of yes unexpected validation if you will yes i have had that happen we were in um costa rica when that happened.
We were in the pool and there was somebody, Ed and I had already had a little sideline conversation because we really wanted to hone in on a couple of the couples and try to make a date, like a dinner date coming up or a potential play date we really wanted to be more forward with with our next conversation because we really liked them so we were getting our strategy together and so i was like nope nope yes definitely nope as we were going around the pool and so that we knew where we were going to spend our time because we had already had conversations with a lot of these people yeah and one of the nopes was actually like yes after i saddled up next to him at the bar got my drink and he started talking to me and something about the what he was saying was different than before and then all of a sudden we were kissing and then once we were kissing oh man it was all over then it was all over like dopamine kicked in there was something about that kiss that was just like fire.
And I'm like, oh, yes, my mind's changed. Yes, this person just moved to the top of the list. Yeah, for sure. It was so much fun. It was so much fun. We've definitely had situations like that where just not expecting anything to happen that night. And then the next thing you know, we're in a playroom or something's happened. And yeah. OK, can we talk about October for a second? Oh, my God. Yeah, I've been waiting for this.
We were invited to be guest speakers for two engagements on a six-star crystal cruise ship with 310 lifestyle couples and it sails from montreal to boston during the peak foliage season i'm super excited and honestly i'm really nervous yeah it's kind of a version of like a swinger ted talk that we're gonna have to do oh my god i know and more importantly if you know the brand I don't know. Kind of a version of like a swinger TED talk that we're going to have to do. Oh, my God. I know. And more importantly, if you know the brand, it's LLV, Luxury Lifestyle Vacations.
You may have seen them and they're sexy playmakers with their fun red hats. This ship, the Crystal Symphony, is classy. butler service for every single room, Michelin rated restaurants, full spa, clothing optional, sensual playrooms, like everything, theme nights and international DJ. So it's luxury and nudity? Oh man, this is going to be great.
The bottom line is we want you there with us it's 310 couples and like all their vacations they book up fast they really do their vacations are extremely popular so please come with us and in order to find it all you have to do is go to our swingerlinks.com and look for the llvV Sensual Voyage. We hope you'll join us. Which is why I don't completely ever write somebody off. I just use the nope, nope, yes, definitely. or be aware, like I said, where we're going to focus our energy because you can't pursue six couples at the same time.
You kind of have to, you can, but you also have to lock in one if you're going to get anywhere. Unless you just say, all six of you, party in our room, come on down that that's right and that that has happened also that has happened so pleasure paradox part of this is this whole you know addiction cycle that we've been talking about but then there's this constant bombardment of the planned pleasure centers in your brain so they're just being hit over and over and over again. Yeah. Basically, everyday life. And this is probably the best example.
And this is why a lot of people have issues with social media. A lot of psychologists and scientists are having issues with social media because that dopamine scrolling, you don't even hear people refer to it as that. that, where you're looking for the next funny, cute, entertaining podcast that just happens to pop up on your screen and you jump into the live room. We're doing this all day long. Most people are. Yeah. You do it way more than I don't on purpose because it's a time suck and I could be there forever. And I have so little time. I need all my time. Yeah.
So, everyday life has become this all-time high and society has really been drugified. The drugified is normal. Right. And normal and healthy activities like sex, eating, playing games, etc. is even drugified.
Yeah, I mean, here's some common vanilla things that we could talk could talk about food they add things to food to make them more savory more tasty more who knows what they're putting in there um so you can't eat just one right like they even have commercials talking about how addictive the food is the the chip remember we watched that that the documentary on the chip and the science behind the potato chip and the special machine they had designed to create that crunching sensation and how long it lasted and yeah all of that and the flavor and how it dissipates on your palate and how it moves around your mouth i mean there is some serious serious science behind a potato chip and And then we can talk about just sex in general.
It's not only available anywhere. I mean, we're all walking around with little porn machines in our pockets all the time. Yeah. But it's on TV too. And I'm glad that it's becoming a little bit more normalized and that people aren't freaking out about sex as much as they used to, but television shows now, they're full-blown sex scenes. And because most people watch TV on cable, we're talking like full frontal nudity most of the time. Oh, yeah.
The only thing they don't show is penetrative sex right yet right yet game of thrones in a couple seasons you never know and they just get there um but kind of peeling back even from the the sex scenes and and that kind of aspect of it think about how fashion has evolved and how even like a halftime show at the super bowl is very sexualized like everything about pretty much anything that we do in entertainment it's like very sexily dressed they're you know they're gyrating their hips and you know this has been going on for a long time because elvis's biggest problem was that he gyrated his hips and it was very sexual and so people had huge problems with elvis presley and his dance moves and it hasn't changed right Like there's still this constant flooding of sexual imagery in pretty much every.
changed right like there's still this constant flooding of sexual imagery in pretty much everything we do um i prefer that to then maybe the constant violent you know stimulus that we're getting all the time too but it does become kind of desensitized over time. Yeah, and due to that constant dopamine high outside of our normal dopamine levels. Right, that just woke up level. The brain really does try to regulate by seeking balance. Yeah.
And thus reducing your dopamine production because it's trying to seek balance, which is why the theory is a lot of people are kind of slipping into that depressive state because your brain is constantly trying to regulate that. And it becomes this chronic dopamine deficit where the spike is less and less, but you need more to get high.
Well, and part of that too is that the level that you've become accustomed to is so disproportionately high that when you're not at that level you feel like you're wrong yeah and so that's that's the real kind of danger part about that is i feel terrible when i'm not doom scrolling on my phone or when i'm not eating food or when i'm not having sex yeah that's that's where it's really bad because you've gotten so used to this weirdly high level of excitement all the time that everything everything at a normal level which would have been like wow this is this was a great experience has now it's not so great yeah yeah and so then why right and four factors have increased We'll see you next time.
experience has now it's not so great yeah yeah and so then why right and four factors have increased the quantity the access or availability the potency and the novelty yeah this all affects the dopamine center of the brain yes and so when you're chasing a dopamine high and perhaps have that ENM, ethical non-monogamy addictive behavior, that dopamine is going to be extremely sensitive to novelty. Yep. And I will say that secrecy that we used to have. Yeah. That was really exciting.
Oh, yeah you you feel like you're getting away with something oh yeah it's the oh my god if the neighbors only knew what we were doing if my parents knew like the neighbors knew like you feel like i remember the first time i had sex i swear to god i felt like i had a neon sign on my forehead and i felt like everyone was going to know because i looked different right like people just look at me and they'd go oh you're no longer a virgin right right and nobody knew no but but that was the movies all the time they're like, you've got a glow about you you got laid i know so so the we it was the same thing when we we go out right and then we were raising children at the time that we were doing this and they were teenagers and they were very aware of what was going on like around the Right, not specifically the swinging, but yes.
No, but they were very aware of what was going on around the household. Right, not specifically the swinging. No, but they were very keen on noticing how patterns started to change. Nosey little bastards. They saw everything. Where you going? What you doing? Why are you dressed like that? How come you're wearing a long coat? It's really hot outside. What's in the bag? Why are you taking a bag? Like, oh my God.
All the questions questions and so we once the questions we realized they were much smarter than we thought they were i'd start sneaking the bag into the trunk into the car like hours before so they didn't see us leaving with it right and and then i'd have and i wouldn't wear the coat and i'd change in the car i'd wear something completely different right oh my gosh it was but it was annoying but that was exciting because we're like getting away with something we're like we had a secret we were part of this secret i'm getting all like supercharged just by thinking about it because it wasn't exciting and now we're out and it's not exciting anymore.
Well, so one of the other aspects that I think a lot of people get hooked on are swinger vacations. Oh, yes. And, you know, depending on, we'll just pick on them, the resorts, they're all inclusive.
Alcohol is freely there's there's like a critical mass of naked people running around doing naughty secret things so and and then there's pool games right yes dance party it's like the best vacation ever oh yeah you get to be naked with other people and theme nights and you get to shop for the theme nights ahead of time which adds to the excitement i know some people get really hooked on that and we have heard and i don't know how they afford it but obviously in a totally different tax bracket than we are but going to like hedonism multiple times a year or desire multiple times a year that's freaking great but are they chasing that like that high are they trying to get back to that feeling of where they were before and is and is that what that's about i mean some of it's the relationships too yeah and and not that there's anything wrong with that um i mean other than we can't go but you know besides that and a lot of people will will i'm sure they well i'd like to think that they budget for it that's the accountant in me thinking that they're budgeting for that um but a lot of people can't play in their town and so that's what they look forward to twice a year because they have to be out of the country or out of their state to do that right so there are also positive benefits to the relationship you know where you're justifying you know that it's a good thing right then there's that pleasure seeking where you um you know maybe the next event's going to be bigger better and we did that too right because the events that we were going to in the beginning were just oh my god they were a little snoozy they were so snoozy we had a couple that were really good which which started us off yeah and then there was like this weird lull in the middle yeah um like the first six months or a year honestly i think because we we were for me i was so desirous of trying to figure out you know what's going on or why everyone else seemed to have it figured out or how everyone else is doing it or what's the secret sauce that we just kept going because we kept feeling like we were just failing at it.
We're going to fake it till we make it. Yeah. And so we give ourselves homework. We're like, we didn't talk to anybody again. Oh my God, we're such d and they were like okay well we got to give ourselves homework so this time we're going to talk to at least one couple and then so we would beeline it over to a couple and then we increased it to three couples every every event got to talk to at least three couples every event and then eventually we got used to it and we got used to seeing some of the same faces and then right Every event. Got to talk to at least three couples every event.
And then eventually, we got used to it. And we got used to seeing some of the same faces. And then we started to feel comfortable in the community. But it took a while. I mean, it took a long time. It was so awkward. And it was infuriating. Because here we are in our 40s doing this. Starting over. Starting over.
And I'm like, I feel like a freaking teenager i'm like this like what it was awkward why i hate this awkwardness what are we doing how do we talk to people now it was just it was so annoying then did you want to say something i know i'm talking a lot no no this is good um i i remember those early years with some like oh if i'd known then what i know now you know maybe we wouldn't have gone to those parties maybe we would have just switched up parties but at the time that was all that we knew that was going on um but yeah yeah oh okay so here's kind of can comments uh yeah so he did hito for the first time oh three years ago and that is nuts it's like the jedi final exam for swingers non-stop play it's awesome but once a year is enough even if the money is no object yeah and for those who have not been to hedonism the comparison that i've heard between desire and hedonism because we haven't been to desire but we have been to hedo is hedonism is like that party that's on 11 all the time like it's the hip play so if you really want to hook up with other couples like he knows the place to go and desires a little bit more like slow to warm up and a little bit more on the yeah the whining and dining aspect and less on the hedonism of the whole thing right and hedonism has a lot of groups that go so so if you can go with a group that fits your preference, then that's even more fun.
Right. Even more chance for trouble. I will say, you can step away from the go there as well. There are parts of that resort that are nice and quiet and you can just rest and recharge and do your own thing, take a down day. That's super easy to do there. And I did plenty of that because I don't always like being in the fray. But if you want to be in the fray 24-7, absolutely. Yeah. And actually, this is a good thing.
I don't even think we put it in the outline but we did talk about it in oh no it's in here it towards towards the uh seeking the balance but we haven't talked about it yet and that's this sense of fomo and that's this fear of missing out oh hedonism certainly kicks up fomo because even even if you're on the, I don't even think they call this anymore. They used to call it the prude side and the nude side. Yeah, I think they rebranded that.
Yeah, I think they got rid of it because I think they felt like they were leaving people out or made them feel bad because they were on the non-party side of the island. But let's say you do decide to go take a nap or you do decide to to you know take it down a notch because you were up all night and you were drinking and dancing and doing all the fun stuff you hear the party going on or you see it you know you see all the people going there and you like you're like oh man i'm missing out there's got be, there's something great going on right now and I'm missing it.
So one of the other addictive things is you have this fear of missing out on that next experience or that couple that's potentially going to get away that you got to get them while it's good because otherwise you're going to miss out and they're going to be gone. And we definitely felt that a number of times. Yeah, and i will feel fomo very strongly when one of our our couple friends is going on one of those right a fun trip and i'm like oh dang it i can't go or you know i really want to but I can't. And then they're there and I'm like, text me pictures, keep me up to date. Right.
Because I have to live, you know, through them. Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I know. I don't know why that affects me so much.
Usually it affects me when I'm not having enough fun in my own my own life if my life my pie of life has gotten a little out of balance and i need to take more time for me right that's usually when i feel fomo more because i'm i'm missing more of just that the escape yeah yeah the escape of the grind the day in and day out grind of things tell me about it part of my my journey um in the lifestyle was when when we came out with our faces right it felt like this imposter syndrome because we were getting compliments. Oh, my God, I love your podcast. We're not really anybody.
We just sit behind a microphone and we just do this thing. Right. But it was great because we got good feedback, which kept us motivated. But then it was weird because it was like this weird dichotomy. And then the novelty of kind of that wore off and I'm not sure really where I'm going with this. My outline is sucking right now at this point. Well, I'll pitch in a little bit here because I think we definitely got to a point where the newness, the excitement, the novelty of being secret had gone away because we'd come out. Yes.
So the secrecy had gone away away so we lost a little bit of that yes dopamine rush but then there was also a weird thing that happened right around that time where we decided that we were going to be we're going to treat it more like a business the podcast the podcast right and because of that it became a lot more serious and we wanted to get more listeners and we wanted to to like get followers on social media and do that whole thing well and because we wanted to read it became a lot more serious, and we wanted to get more listeners, and we wanted to get followers on social media and do that whole thing.
Well, and because we wanted to reach more people, because being a podcaster and advertising a podcast is extremely difficult. A lot of people don't even know what a podcast is right now. So you have to advertise it.
And I hate well yeah and that became I think the biggest kind of piece of imposter syndrome for us was it felt uncomfortable to to market and to yeah push the podcast because we did it for fun we we did it to help other people and to communicate you know all of these crash and burn scenarios that we'd been through and the awkward kind of teenage years of starting as a swinger so to speak um and and once we'd kind of like got that train rolling it kind of got away from us a little bit and I think that's where the novelty of the of the whole thing for us had kind of worn off and and that's where we've tried to like reinvent and change the podcast so that it was fun and novel and interesting for us again yeah and that then Well, we, we are in year like 11 or 12 now and the novelty of swinging has dissipated yeah yeah it's not as it's not as new and exciting as it used to be for us for sure here's why we sail on virgin it's adults only no kids screaming at breakfast no family buffet lines just champagne at noon late night pool parties and people who actually want to be there the vibe think boutique hotel that happens to float tattoo parlors drag brunch restaurants you'd actually pay for on land plus when you're looking to connect with other couples who know how to have fun let's just say virgin attracts a very specific type of adventurous no wonder bread cruisers your people.
Right. And so it's the focus now has changed for us. The focus really is not so much on the sex aspect of it. It's more focused on the community and building those relationships and having great fun with people conversations maybe traveling with them we've got friends that we travel with sometimes yeah and it's really nice because you can be very open with those individuals and you feel more complete. Right. You're not hiding anything. Nothing's a secret. You just, it's all out there. And it's very freeing. It's comfortable. Yeah. So it's nice to be able to do that.
So it's interesting how it's shifted over time. Now, will we make, you know, will it shift again? I'm sure it will. Well, we just heard about a fantastic party that had us super excited and tons of FOMO just hit us. So, holy crap. Okay, so let's tell them. We want to go. So, we're in the Swinger Mastermind group. It's a bunch of promoters getting together and event coordinators and people in the industry. And we all support one another and share ideas. So one of the promoters in there does an event every summer up to 1,800 people. Yeah, he's trying to get...
He thinks they're going to be up to 1,800 this year. In Oklahoma, on 120 acres of land, he's got security, he's got food trucks, DJs, vendors, bathrooms, showers. Hot air balloons. Hot air balloons. You could go naked in a hot air balloon. Like, what is not to love about that?
You could have sex in a hot air balloon like what is not to love about sex in a hot air balloon i will say it is very dang hot air balloons can be pretty dangerous i've ridden in one the landings are pretty rough so if you're naked probably not yeah wear a cup bring some support don't get caught on the basket yeah don't Yes and so it's it's camping so you're bringing your rv you bring your tent whatever you want to stay in and i think it's only for what three days maybe four yeah i didn't get all the details on it but just how many people were going to be there and the kinds of fun things that they were doing.
Yeah. Some of the contests and fun activities that he was describing. It just sounds like a hoot. Yeah, he kind of described it like kind of like a burner event, like Burning Man with swinging and it's kind of a mashup. Yeah. those kinds of experiences which are just like sensory super exciting now you can you can see how this kind of fits in with this episode right yeah i'm hearing all of these really exciting thrilling things going on novel things that i've never tried before like having sex in a hot air balloon never done that before right absolutely Now it is on my bike.
Thank you so much for watching. be like summer of love so 60s flower power all kinds of fun stuff so so ed and i were like right before the episode we're like oh oh my god maybe we should try and make this event happen you know maybe we could get some cheap tickets to oklahoma right don't fly down there and then what was my second thought my very second thought was i'm not gonna get any sleep yeah which Thank you.
and then what was my second thought my very second thought was I'm not going to get any sleep yeah which is a whole other thing because we're going to be in a tent and I'm not going to get any sleep oh hotel there are hotels nearby and they have shuttles that will shuttle you back and forth maybe that's what we do or we like Thank you. There are hotels nearby and they have shuttles that will shuttle you back and forth. Maybe that's what we do. Maybe that's what we do. Or we like rent a truck or something when we sleep in the back and we take our new tent thing. Oh.
But still, if there's a big party going on around, the FOMO kicks in really hard when you hear that going on. So, I't know. Well, we'll discuss that. Yeah. There's a hot air balloon with my name on it. See, here are the real life discussions of what we're talking about. Because now I'm thinking maybe I do want to go with the hotel route because I can separate myself from the constant stimulus because I do need my downtime. Right. Prudes that too overstimulated, so I have to oo-sa, and then I can go and jump back in. So maybe the hotel would be great, and then I come back. We'll see. We'll see.
But you do miss a lot of connections when you kind of remove and come back and you remove yourself. Yeah, we've definitely experienced that before. It's nice being immersed. Yes. I know. So, we'll see. We will see. A new thing we haven't tried yet. So, that brings us to seeking balance. Yes.
Se seeking balance to the pleasure paradox uh honesty you know if you if you feel like you have an addiction to it and your finances are are running running really low because you're you're out every weekend you've been to hito four times this year right you know maybe have some honesty towards that um spread out the fun yeah right try to consciously spread that out make sure your pie is more balanced entertainment pie is balanced you've got vanilla life do do some vanilla travel along with your swinger travel right don't make it all.
I mean, vacation should be fun too, but you know, not that kind of fun. And then take breaks if you need to. Remember that normal is okay. You know, your lifestyle versus hobby. Right. We did an episode on that last week, right? Yeah. Yeah of view it we we we think that we've been we've done both in the beginning it was more of a hobby we just kind of dabbled right and then it became more of something that was all the time everything was that focus and now we're probably more in the hobby aspect of. It's a little different because this has become more of a business for us.
So it's part of our part-time job, basically, that we don't get paid for. Yeah, because it requires a great deal of work. Yeah. And I think one of the other aspects that, and this plays into the social media and a lot of the other stuff that we were talking about but i think it also applies in the lifestyle and that's don't compare so someone isn't having more fun than you yeah and and trying to have that comparison and this gets really hard especially when you start talking about sex and the level of of you know yeah how many orgasms she's having versus how many you're having.
That's happened before. Yeah. He's doing a better job of this and that or whatever. Or they're having more fun. Or their husband's having more fun with this other woman. Yeah. Or they've got it all figured out and we don't have it figured out and I don't understand what's wrong. That was always my thing. I was like, why don't we have it? Why don't we have this figured out?
Why is it because because it's hard because it's life it's real life and there's feelings and there's stuff and it's messy and you're you're coordinating what oh and yes and i was gonna say this honesty towards addiction really comes down to kind of mindfulness and introspection and i think it's really important to to kind of take a step back from things sometimes and really think about why am I having the feelings that I'm having or why why do I feel compelled to always find the next event yeah you know that you know there's some there's mental health in, in taking a step back from things, as you said, and really reassessing occasionally and having that like healthy perspective.
And we did, I, I put the brakes on at one point and we took about an eight month break. Sure. Yeah. Because I was just so tired of trying to figure out the swinging lifestyle and figure out dating and figuring out couples and figuring out protocol and there's just yeah so many things to figure out that it just i i just my brain was full right and. And I just needed to not think about it. Hey there, podcast listeners. You've been tuning into our episodes, but have you ever wondered about the steamy details of our adventures or maybe hungry for some sultry erotic stories. Well, guess what?
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This the magic happens see you there patrons so what are what are some ways that people can kind of like re-center themselves or ground themselves that would be helpful for this to kind of take take a step back from the phones and the events and the parties and all of the dopamine stuff that's going on i i would say just step away from the lifestyle for a little bit um yoga walking exercise has always been my go-to yeah uh it really really does help. Meditation, if that's what you're into. Going backpacking out in the woods. We do that a lot. Relaxing and just not having stuff around.
And when you're out backpacking, you can't be on your phones. You can't be checking for events. You can't be seeing how well the last episode did. All of that kind of stuff that we that i get caught up in yeah i wouldn't even say go to a meet and greet unless you're immune to fomo because if you're not a meet and greet you're gonna find someone that's going to some new party that you hadn't heard about and you'd be like what i want to know or some new Telegram chat that you're not in. And it's like, oh my God. I feel so left out because I'm not in that Telegram chat.
And then, yeah, it's torture. So just wait it out. Wait out this dopamine. Let your body kind of settle back down. And your brain will naturally strive to reach that homeostasis. Yeah. And, and kind of a bonus tip for this, and this isn't in the episode, but it kind of plays on a lot of this stuff and that's pace yourself, right? Like if you're, if you're going at it nonstop to the point where you're probably going to burn out, maybe just go to a few less events. Maybe not go to every meet and greet that happens to come up.
Give yourself that break and kind of meter it out a little bit so that you can kind of have high moments and then you can kind of, oh yeah, we had such a last weekend it was so much fun live in those feelings for a little bit and the memory of it instead of trying to get the next one going and kick it off again yeah and guaranteed you know when people are they they tell you oh you know oh yeah we have like we have like 20 friends and we all travel together and you're like what like yeah i wish i had that i call bullshit just right it's it's bullshit it's it's not true it should travel is to the local club like and it's two friends like it's not real real 100% so don't get all wound up like I used to because I quickly figured out that their description is not even close to reality right you've had five drinks in a night everybody's the hottest people you've ever had at a party.
I mean, it just happens. I know. Ken talks about in here, we'll address some questions here. Yeah, Oklahoma. I know that's exactly what I said. I was like, holy crap. That's like in the middle of super conservative south, so to speak. I know.
I guess it's the dirty south of it's in texas area but anyway and yeah i i'm kind of convinced with as many mormon swingers that we've run across in the lifestyle in the 10 years that there's some the really repressed people are they come out hard like yeah they are the they are the hard partiers and apparently swinging and they have like 1800 people come out of the woodwork just for that event um and i absolutely uh like your strategy ken for you know two days have a blast let it all hang out and then you're like can't do that all the time right i need i need a couple days to to rest and put some ointment on things because i'm a little sore uh i know we've had though we have had those parties before and yeah and then yeah it does it puts kind of puts things in a little perspective for you because you're like getting too old for this and too old for this shit oh yeah yeah so yeah dopamine's a real thing it's i i've never really um looked at that chemical the natural chemical response of the body body and how it really does fuck with your mind.
Well, it happens automatically. So it's not even something you have to think about. It just happens to you. I know. And this is why doctors are so careful when they prescribe any kind of mood-altering drug because it can have great impacts. They tend to step you up carefully and step you down carefully because of the way it alters your mood and your mind. Right. I mean, it's no joke. No.
And if you think about that, you got this you know normalized level of maybe dopamine and then you go off of your meds and then you drop to an abnormal under low and that that's why things are why there's actually another strategy that happens with that too but because i'm not a therapist or a psychologist or a doctor, we just say the fancy doctor-y words on a podcast, we recommend a group that deals with this kind of stuff. And if you want to talk to a coach or a counselor about this, we highly recommend it.
We absolutely believe in couples therapy and swinger therapists and all of that stuff. We'll put a link to a group called Expansive Connection at the bottom of this episode in the show notes and reach out to them, talk to them about their services. We've had them on our episodes before. We've done interviews with them. And we highly recommend seeking professional help if you need somebody to talk to. And they practice the lifestyle. They're in the lifestyle in some form, shape or form. Some of them are polyamorous.
They have a staff of I think four people one gentleman I think three women and yeah they're they're really great yeah and they're people really great resource and and I love I love that they're available to this community absolutely well, for tuning in. We appreciate you joining our little Wednesday night party. Don't forget your homework. Tell a friend about our show. And if you want, leave a review and definitely leave a comment, even if it's just an emoji. And I'll steal this from somebody else. And if you know who it is, you can also leave that in a comment because, you know, engagement.
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And as we say, keep learning, keep it sexy and we'll uh we'll talk to you guys next time and if you want to catch next week's episode you do have to join patreon because we we we have to we have to keep balance in our life and every other wednesday is the public episodes but if you want to hear the behind the scenes and the stuff that that was going on in our private lives, stuff that we don't talk about in the main episode, you're going to have to check us out on Patreon. So till next time. Ciao, ciao. Oh, one last thing before you go.
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