Want to send us a message? There s a real debate happening in the lifestyle community: Are dirty vanillas (people showing up to swinger events but not actually swinging) ruining the experience? Or is the real problem something we ve completely misunderstood? In this episode, Ed and Phoebe dig into the data, share surprising stories, and challenge everything you thought you knew about who belongs in these spaces. By the end, you might see this conversation—and the community—completely differently. --- WHAT YOU LL LEARN• Why 1/3 of Americans are exploring something other than traditional monogamy—and why this changes everything about the dirty vanilla debate• The spectrum of play styles and why there s actually NO official definition of what makes someone a real swinger• A real story from a couple in Costa Rica who called themselves swinger adjacent —and why their approach is brilliant• How preferences literally shift from event to event, week to week—and why labels fail to capture what s actually happening• The single most important skill that actually works when you re trying to figure out what someone is REALLY looking for at an event• Why swingers have figured out something that the rest of us are still struggling with: how to create genuinely judgment-free, welcoming spaces---KEY MOMENTS (WITH TIMESTAMPS)• [00:01:04] The stat that reframes everything: One-third of Americans want something other than complete monogamy—and why this changes the debate entirely• [00:03:51] Breaking down Gen Z, millennials, and Gen X data on non-monogamy—and why 31% of singles have actually explored this• [00:06:13] The question that flips the script: Maybe it s not Why are vanillas here? but Why are we gatekeeping who belongs? • [00:08:01] The Swinger Adjacent couple from Costa Rica and their unforgettable exact words about the lifestyle community• [00:06:38] Why soft swap and full swap are way more complicated than they sound—the spectrum within the spectrum• [00:27:00] How to actually ask the questions that matter—the simple framework that changes everything• [00:29:45] The bigger picture: What non-swingers have already figured out that the rest of us need to embrace Support the showWant More?👀 Watch on YouTube: YouTube ShowFull video versions and interactive live episodes!Bonus episodes, exclusive content, and 🌶️Extras: https://www.patreon.com/SwingerUniversity 🛳️🎉Looking for lifestyle events in your area? T4P is the go-to directory for clubs, parties, and resort events. Browse now at Ticket4Play.com Custom SU T-shirts and gear: Our Amazon StoreSwingerLinks.com - live schedule, special offers*, and our 🌶️links!Our Website - Leave us a message, articles, and sexy products3 Ways to get your question on our show:RECORD it on our website at: https://swingeruniversity.com/contact/EMAIL a recorded voice note to: [email protected]: (916) 538-0482 and leave a voicemail.* We get a commission if you decide to purchase through our links, at no cost to you.
Transcript
We have to talk about something we've been genuinely excited about for months, and our patrons actually got a preview of this already. Jamaica! Yes, we are going back, and actually, we have a great offer for you guys. Yeah, it's Swingcation. It's October 11th through the 18th at Hedonism 2. And if you don't know what Swingcation is, it's pretty easy. Swinger plus kink plus vacation. It's a hosted group with real structure, workshops, lectures, real conversations with experts who are passionate about bringing and bridging that gap between the swinger world and the kink world.
And we're not just going as attendees. We're going as featured presenters, which is exciting. We'll be leading sessions. So if you come, we actually get to hang out with you. Which brings up something we should mention. When you use our code, yes, we got a code, you're not just getting a discount. You're getting the signature swing experience, which means $100 off per person, up to $200 per room, but it also means that we make time for you. An exclusive breakfast, lunch, cocktail hour, or one-hour and one time with us directly, plus more surprise benefits.
Here's something that's really unique. You could actually contribute by hosting a discussion or running a Skillshare. I know it's scary, but if you have something that you want to contribute, that's a big part of why this event is so special. Everyone there has something to bring to the table. All right, details. If you book before April 25th, you save $400. Plus, they gave us that special code that gets you an additional $200, and the special code is SWINGERU-VIP. So book through TicketForPlay.com forward slash Swinky. That's T-I-C-K-E-T, the number four, play.com forward slash S-W-I-N-K-Y.
And use our code at checkout. And you guys, if you have any questions about the event, the resort, or what to expect, just reach out. I mean, we're here for you. We're happy to help. So once again, ticketforplay.com forward slash Swinky, the code SwingerU-VIP. We really want to see you there. There's a debate happening in the lifestyle community right now. Dirty vanillas. People who show up to swinger events but aren't actually swingers. Are they ruining the experience? Are they diluting what it means to be part of this community?
Or is the real problem something we've gotten totally wrong about who gets to belong? By the end of this episode, you're going to see this completely differently. Stick around. The answer might surprise you. Welcome to Swing Your University. I'm Ed. And I'm Phoebe. Today, we're breaking down a conversation that's dividing the community. Now, we've seen some conversations about this in different forums and news chats, and it's surprising to me that it is such a controversy, but we're going to kind of dig through it and see if we can come up with maybe a better answer to it.
before we dive in this isn't a small conversation according to recent data one third of americans say their ideal relationship is something other than complete monogamy one third that's huge that's not fringe that's you walk into any room and let's say there's 100 people and there's 30 people in there who are like, yeah, non-monogamy. It's kind of cool. So this whole debate about who, quote, gets to belong, it's actually important to a lot of different people.
mm-hmm we've been in the lifestyle for 12 years now and here's what we've learned people don't fit into boxes as much as i want them to to keep it orderly to keep my environment orderly and my brain from going everywhere. I like knowing where I fit in and how to navigate. We're constantly surprised by how people categorize themselves or what they label their relationship or their play style. And we've seen preferences shift from week to week. So the same couple, two different events, completely different play style.
we've seen preferences shift from week to week so the same couple two different events completely different play style we've also met people who don't call themselves swingers but they keep showing up to all the events so clearly they're getting something out of this community. Here's the real situation. The definition of who, quote, gets to call themselves a swinger has become incredibly complicated. And this debate about dirty vanillas is actually exposing a bigger problem.
So let's break down the data and see what it actually tells us gen z 41 are open to non-monogamous relationships breaking that down by age among 18 to 44 year old men only 35 want complete monogamy 46 want something in between according to match 31 of singles have actually explored consensual non-monogamy these aren't accidents showing up at events they're intentionally seeking this out and that doesn't even include the act quote accidents that we keep hearing about right in the lifestyle there are long-time friends birthday parties involved lots of drinking they have a hot tub which is as everybody knows the gateway to swinging so be careful or not and they accidentally swap or do flirty things and And it becomes just this, and they don't know what it is.
They don't define it. They just do it. That kind of accidental stumbling into or situational swinging that happens, and I think part of it is that classic definition of swinger. Everybody thinks he's in a bowl at a party back in the 60s. Yeah. Nobody really thinks that it's kind of going on now. They hear about polyamory all the time. That's been pretty popular and tons of TV shows about poly. But it's interesting when you, in your mind, when you hear the word polyamory, you don't think sex. When you hear swinger, you think sex. It's just a sex party.
You're a swinger and you have sex with everybody. That's a tiny part of what swinging is, is the sex. When someone shows up to an event and says, we're not really swingers. We just like pineapples. I've seen shirts like that too. They might be telling the truth and they just want to be part of this thing that's going on. And we've been to enough lifestyle parties where they're fun parties. And they're not much different from a vanilla social event where everybody's dancing, drinking, socializing. There's an extra room off to the side where people are actually having sex.
But other than that, it's just there. So maybe the question isn't, why are vanillas at these events? Maybe it's, why are we gatekeeping who gets to belong? And that's where this gets interesting. Swinging is messy, as people are.
And as a swinger, you will know, if you're active in the community, that there's a there's soft swap full swap watch but don't play solo play only playing with specific people only playing on specific nights and only when they're in a specific mood so it's it's not black and white and so even though we have those navigational definitions of soft and full there's still a spectrum in that as well how many people on a bed for full swap right is it just you and the other person completely swapping is it separate room is it same room separate locations like so yeah it's it's there's so much so labels are hard labels are hard and then what are you into that night you could define yourself as full swap but then for that evening you only want to do soft because you want to switch it up right right so there's no true version of swinger there's just versions there's a whole gamut of ways that people define themselves and define how they swing and after 12 years we still meet couples whose definitions surprise us.
Yeah. We met a couple in Costa Rica who called themselves swinger adjacent. We love that term. I do love that term. And their exact words, we've never forgotten the sentence that they said to us when we asked them, are they full swap or soft swap? Their response was, we're only for each other, but swingers are some of the nicest and warmest people we've ever met. Yeah, yeah. And I just love that. We're only for each other.
And we spent a lot of time hanging out with them honestly because they were so nice yeah like i really wanted to go visit them yeah and and she was incredibly sexy so it was fun hanging out with her even if we knew nothing was ever going to happen was it was very nice to sit by the pool her outfits were great yeah like she fit in to every other definition of a participant in the event yes except for the swapping part right yeah why do they come well they they come for the community and as you said they're the nicest people so people are open They're non-judgmental uh warm friendly they'll give you a hug and greet you they don't care what size you are what shape you are and there's this whole atmosphere of anticipation and the themes and the outfits and you complement each other so it's it's very kind of reassuring and comforting and it's a huge ego boost yeah all the time it feels good to get compliments most people don't get compliments during the day and if you're you've been with your spouse 20 years you may not receive them as often as you used to in the beginning of your relationship.
It feels good having your ego stroked and eventually you get used to receiving those compliments. Even if you're uncomfortable with them, you will get comfortable. And I'll take it a step further. The compliments that you get at a swinger event are entirely different. That dress looks so good on you. Right. I really like your shoes. It's, wow, your tits look fantastic in that dress. Yes. Yes, the compliments are richer, more exciting. Yeah, there's some juice to them.
They lady oh hi i see what you did there so it this whole thing kind of creates this charged atmosphere where everybody's kind of escalated sexually yes and this kind of supercharges everybody's relationship so So just the swingers but the dirty vanillas too they get they get those feels to rub off on them as well and i i don't i don't feel like that's ruining anything i just see that as participation right like everyone is participating well and and that's where it comes down to this next kind of aspect to it which is you literally can't know what a person's play preference is until you talk to them right and so you have to ask so whether they're're vanilla or dirty vanilla or full swap, you still have to have that initial conversation with them.
And having that conversation changes from time to time. As we said, people aren't static. You might have a couple, a full swap couple that you met lifestyle party in june right right in the middle of summer and by september you see them at another house party and all of a sudden they're taking a break and then you see them again in nove November and they're back at it. But then maybe they're not in it the following year. And we've seen this happen on, off, break, stop, start. And a lot of times, usually what happens is we see people often for a whole year, maybe a whole year and a half.
And then we just don't see them ever again.
yeah and that that gets kind of sad because you get used to seeing them and you enjoy them but they're gone yeah the other aspect of this is we're all people working on our relationships and not every relationship is going to have perfect days all the time and sometimes couples get in fights at events and it completely changes the vibe for that event or that trip and so you may see them at the beginning of the week at hedonism and not so much at the end of the week we have had that happen we have we have even seen one partner of the couple change their flight and go home early. Yes.
That's particularly bad. Right. The interesting thing is you get the flip side for the Dirty Vanillas and they show up just to observe. We're just here to observe. We're shy. We're new. Never done this before. Or before next thing you know they're in like an eight person pile up in the middle of the playroom and you're like well okay way to just like go for it i always feel really proud in those moments i was like yay they made it happen like you're it's like witnessing a child walking for the first time and you're like. Okay, can we talk about October for a second?
Oh my god, yeah, I've been waiting for this.
We were invited to be guest speakers for two engagements on a six star crystal cruise ship with 310 lifestyle couples and it sails from montreal to boston during the peak foliage season i'm super excited and honestly i'm really nervous yeah it's kind of a version of like a swinger ted talk that we're gonna have to do oh my god i know And more importantly if you know the brand it's llv luxury lifestyle vacations you may have seen them and they're sexy playmakers with their fun red hats this ship the crystal symphony is classy butler service for every single room Michelin rated restaurants full spa clothing optional sensual playrooms like everything theme nights and international dj so it's luxury and nudity oh man this is gonna be great the bottom line is we want you there with us it's 310 couples and like all their vacations, they book up fast.
They really do. Their vacations are extremely popular. So please come with us. And in order to find it, all you have to do is go to our swingerlinks.com and look for the LLV Sensual Voyage. We hope you'll join us yeah we need a a little thing like it's a good life so it's like every time you hear a condom torn open a swinger gets their wings or something i don't know what it would be but so much of this is that people kind of grow into this space.
And because it's such a comfortable environment where people don't feel constrained, it lets them be fluid in however they're feeling at that moment.
One of the labels that people like in the community or have tried in some of these communities are to use bracelets color coding yes or or the necklaces on the cruise we've seen that as well too right and you know it's supposed to help you identify who's soft who's full who's not whatever right whatever category they decided they get a little weird so let's say you walk up to a couple and they've got the green race green bracelet for full go right they're full swap they have no boundaries they're like all holes go for it but that doesn't apply to every couple that's not full go for anybody who walks up to them that's just the general sense of where they're at right and somebody who's maybe soft swap but and we see this so many times on profiles where it's soft swap or if the vibe is right full swap yeah, well then which bracelet do you wear?
Right. Right. Because you don't want to do the green one because then you're advertising that you're full swap, but you're really only situationally full swap. Mm-hmm. It just gets complicated. And then what you end up with is like a pocket full of bracelets and then you're like, okay, honey, how are we feeling tonight? Exactly. And then you got to put the right one on. And we've done that.
We've switched bracelets during the event yeah we have and i think the downside too with these color coding identifiers is if you get someone that's very focused on only talking with full swap couples they miss out on these opportunities to really get to know nice people who happen to have, this is like what the star-bellied sneetches. Right. Yeah, this is a really good example of the Doctor Who story. Dr. Seuss, not Doctor Who, totally different show. Dr. Seuss story of the star-bellied sneetches.
So so the cool kids all have stars the ones that are not cool didn't have stars and so there was a guy that came down and he would sell them for x number of dollars put a star on their belly and then everybody got all mixed up and by the end of it everybody was like well i guess we just have to talk to people and get to know them right which is kind of where this whole concept of gatekeeping is a little bit ironic because you you don't know who you're talking to you don't know how they're going to turn out and labeling somebody before you even have a conversation with them it doesn't it just doesn't work yeah it doesn't apply right if you can't use a label or past behavior to know what someone's actually open to what do you do how do you fix this how do you actually know what works well by the end of this we're going to show you the tool that actually works and it might seem a little too simple to be true you were talking about gatekeeping in a lifestyle and you and i had a conversation earlier this week about how ironic it is yeah because the gatekeeping weed out those that aren't some definition aren't like us or them right and yet we promote open loving caring welcoming right but only if you fit this narrow criteria right so it's it's like it's an oxymoron almost or or i guess yeah it's opposite yeah it flies in the face of what swinging is about or what being sex positive is about and being sex positive you should be open to everybody and how they express it.
Right. At the end of the day, there's one tool that really works. Ask me. What? Yeah, communication is the only real tool. And vetting isn't about judging people. It's about making sure everybody's on the same page and comfortable. And this is one of the biggest arguments that you and I have all the time about the lifestyle versus BDSM community. And that's, if this sounds a lot like consent, it is. It's about having that conversation and figuring out what page everybody's on and everybody's going to be on. like consent, it is.
It's about having that conversation and figuring out what page everybody's on and everybody's going to be on a different page. So you have to have that conversation. So you might as well just get comfortable talking to other people about what their play preferences are and what they want to do at that particular event. I don't think the majority of swingers are comfortable asking. There's very few. what they want to do at that particular event? I don't think the majority of swingers are comfortable asking.
There's very few, and I would say maybe 10%, 15% of the swingers are actually really good with their words. They say what they want and they ask for what they want or they ask others what they're into. Right. And most people aren't that forward. I think it's a comfort thing. I think it has to do with that fear of rejection. Yes. That fear that a couple's too hot or that they're not going to be interested in you. And we're surprised a lot by results and asking people and starting that conversation and kind of what comes out of that. And we've been approached by people, which is flattering.
Yeah. And we've also noticed that hot people don't get approached because everybody's scared of them. So if you do approach them, they're appreciative and you just became a lot closer to actually having them as a partner because they're like, oh my God, you guys actually came and talked to us. That's so sweet. That's so nice. Do you want to come back to our room? It's so weird.
we've encountered this many times where the when we say hot people they're they're like the uh to give you an example they look like they basically stepped out of a magazine right a photoshopped magazine and you're like wow who's that right and And it's funny because you would think that type of person would be super popular, but they're not. They're almost shunned because they're so beautiful that no one feels confident to go up to them because they think, oh, they'll never talk to me. They'll never like me. They'll never. 100% we're getting rejected.
So now they're the ones that are like stuck in the corner right and not having a good time right i've seen that time and time again we have and this is where kind of this whole approach and we've we've had episodes where we've talked about this whole thing but we're going to go into it a little bit more because it's so critical to this conversation, which is there's an opener. So what's an opener? Is this your first time at a swinger event? This works really well because it instantly tells you if they're new or if they're experienced.
Because if they're new, you ask them other questions right exactly and the geography is important when you're asking these questions so you would you would want to know what events they go to or have been to right what types of vacations they go on, what types of resorts that they've been to, and you get to figure out if they tell you, oh, well, we only go to meet and greets. Right. Okay, well, that might be an indication of where their level of comfort is in the lifestyle. Right, right.
say oh my gosh we're at desire every weekend okay i want to meet that couple so it gives you a little bit of a measurement of kind of where they're at it can give you a little bit of an indication too in terms of if they like big events that they're comfortable kind of mingling or if they like more intimate events which means they may be a little more shy and they get overwhelmed easy it's not a hundred percent let's say let's just take the couple that goes to desire every weekend right maybe they never play with anyone anyone right maybe they just like the resort because it's relaxing.
It's open. It's free. They get to be nude. They get to do sexy stuff. Right. By themselves in front of other people. Yeah. And that's why they love to go. They could just be exhibitionists. Which actually, if we think about it, even if you had just a bunch of exhibitionist dirty swingers, they're at least setting the atmosphere for everybody else. Right. Right? You may not be swapping with them, but you get to hear them make all the great noises and bounce up and down and do the stuff. Do the stuff. That's great. They're the entertainment, if nothing else.
So the last part of this really is the honest question, which is, how do you define your play style? What does that look like for you? This is where you start to get to the nitty gritty in terms of, okay, you say you're soft or you say you're full, but what does that really mean?
You start to hear hear about their boundaries you start to hear about what their rules are and this works because it tells you where they actually want to be what they actually want out of that experience and because it changes from event to event or moment to moment you're at least now you're on the same page as them you start to understand and their answer may change depending on who's asking the question too right exactly so it's important to ask that question because they may you may have overheard them say they're full swap but then you talk to them and they're not or they were soft swap but then you talk to them and they're not, or they were soft swap, but then you talk to them and they're like, oh no, we just said that to that couple of you and us.
Yeah, we're, we want to go to our room. So there's a whole range of answers from we don't play, we just watch, we're exploring. Maybe they don't like playrooms. Maybe they don't like group sittings. Maybe they prefer something that's in a closed room or they're full swap and they're ready to go, which has happened to us. So let's talk about what changes when you ask. All right.
Because now you've asked and here's a here's a few examples someone assumes your staff when you're not right because you're so friendly or you gave them a tour at the event and they just assume that you're off limits because you gave them a tour and you're like oh no no no, no, let me correct that very quickly. Right. Because now they see you differently and don't think that you can play or approachable because staff gets in trouble when they do that. Exactly. Right. The other example would be if a couple assumes everyone at the event is experienced. Right. They're all friends.
You get invited to the group and you know that they've been traveling together and they're going to go do this event. And you just assume that they've all slept with one another. Right. Because it's like. Because they're a thing. One coming week every time they're together. So that's not always the case, and it's important to admit that you're new in these situations, too, because people can be very welcoming. Yeah, and it really sets that correct expectations to what's going on.
Speaking of that, there's also this whole assumption of women in the lifestyle having to be bi and you can't swing unless you're bi because of course the girls have to kick the party off and so the girls have to make out and then the guys joint. That's not always a thing. Sometimes it's a thing.
Sometimes it's not thing i actually hate that i don't like it being being labeled well yes and then you know that pressure that the women have to kick off the party and yes i understand we are the brakes and the gas but side note the parties we've been to that I don't like when hosts do this and they've stopped doing it where at 10 o'clock you have to do a costume change and everyone has to be in underwear lingerie I don't like doing it what if I'm not comfortable what if I'm neurodivergent and I don't want to do that I want to keep my clothes on because I'm not comfortable I don't know anybody it.
What if I'm not comfortable? What if I'm neurodivergent and I don't want to do that? I want to keep my clothes on because I'm not comfortable. I don't know anybody in the room. Right. That can be really odd. Well, and it sets people up for an expectation or a rule that everyone has to do X.
Well, that's the same as saying everybody has to full swap or everybody who goes to this party and and we do know of parties that are like that right i know these simple questions and honest answers change someone's entire experience right so they they're important so the bigger picture But this whole thing is non-swingers at events have figured this out. And it's time for the rest of us to get on board with that. And that is, swingers don't attack people. They won't shame you. And they won't exclude you. Everybody's welcome at a swinger party.
It doesn't matter which size, shape, color you are. And that's the best thing about swinger events. They're the nicest people. The assumption is everyone's exploring their sexuality in their own way. It may not be your way, but they're out there exploring for sure. They're pushing boundaries.
They're trying new things they are not lights off missionary right like they want to be in a sexy environment so like embrace that although i have seen lights off missionary at a fringer party well you know sometimes missionaries i like missionary personally but you know that's the that's the stereotype right so instead of gatekeeping how do we keep this vibe going like how do we keep this free open environment where everybody's having a good time how do we stay curious and stop being judgmental yeah yeah you have to approach it with a different mindset. Be direct about what you want.
You learn to be comfortable selling yourself. That comes with time. You've been in a relationship for 20 years. You may not be used to putting yourself out there. Maybe you never were. Maybe you were in your 20s, but you're not in your 40s. Maybe you've never done it. Be very clear about your boundaries. And that can be challenging because women can be people pleasers. They want to make sure everyone's having a good time. They don't want to cause waves. And I don't know what percentage of women fall under that category, but it's a lot of pressure, honestly.
If you've got four or six people on the bed and you're the one pulling the ripcord, that means two out of the four may not be having not be having a good time so you're kind of in charge for other people's pleasure but not really you're you're you in the end you really do want to honor yourself and give people that opportunity to make a different choice and be in charge of where they want to go with their pleasure yeah yeah that was really good yeah it was great so it's a skill it's awkward at first but just like anything with practice it gets easier to ask say no say yes practice your consent skills and most importantly stay curious stay curious to find out why those dirty vanillas are at the event what drove them to this what's their back story they've got a great story because clearly they're at the right place so they got there for a reason and then once you get that it kind of changes how you move through this space.
If you've got that curious mindset, if you've got that sex-positive mindset, we think you're going to have a better time. We think it's less about the goal and more about the journey. It's not about getting laid. It's about having a great time and probably getting laid. Thank you. journey. It's not about getting laid. It's about having a great time and probably getting laid. The real takeaway is that you literally cannot know someone's full story without having a conversation. And that's actually beautiful.
It means there's always room for connection, surprise, and people to show up in their full selves. In closing, we opened with asking, are dirty vanillas ruining swinging? And the real answer is it's not about that at all. Swinging isn't a definition. Swinging isn't about a definition. It's not about who gets to use the label. It's about immunity. People showing up authentically, however that looks.
They deserve to be accepted some play with multiple partners some don't play at all but love the energy some are exploring some know exactly what they want all of them belong the only thing that matters is communication asking staying curious instead of them belong. The only thing that matters is communication, asking, staying curious, instead of being judgmental. That's the real skill. Whether you're a true swinger, swinger adjacent, or just someone who loves real open spaces, you get to be here.
The community is stronger because you are part of it you can leave comments on our website or university.com you can call us and leave us a voicemail at 916-538-0482 or on our website on the contact page You can leave us a little 90-second message, which is super anonymous, and we get to hear your voice, and it's fun for us. So until next time. Keep it sexy. Keep learning. Thank you. We did that out of order. Yes, we did. But we're having fun doing it. Oh, one last thing before you go.
If this episode helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving a rating and review. It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they're searching for relationship education. And we've made it easy. Visit swingeruniversity.com forward slash review. All the instructions are there. Thank you for being part of this community. We'll see you again soon.
