Want to send us a message? With the current political climate taking aim at diversity, equity, and inclusion... Is the swinger lifestyle in the crosshairs? Are decisions being made that will affect our community? In this episode of Swinger University, we sit down with Brett Chamberlain, Executive Director at OPEN—a nonprofit dedicated to advocating for polyamory, ethical non-monogamy, and legal rights for non-monogamous individuals and families.Brett shares how OPEN is working to end stigma, change laws, and support non-monogamous communities through workplace advocacy, municipal protections, and visibility efforts. Learn about the challenges facing swingers, polyamorous individuals, and other ethically non-monogamous (ENM) people—and how you can get involved to make a difference.🔹 Key Topics Covered:✔️ Legal rights and challenges for non-monogamous relationships✔️ Workplace discrimination advocacy efforts✔️ The importance of visibility and cultural acceptance✔️ How non-monogamous communities can support each other✔️ Steps to get involved in legislative changeResources: https://www.open-love.org/resourcesDiscord: https://discord.com/invite/5apvGGp3QuPrint Materials: https://www.open-love.org/print-materialsMixers Guide: https://www.open-love.org/mixers-guidePeer Support: https://www.open-love.org/peer-supportSurvey 2024: https://www.open-love.org/blog/open-2024-community-survey-report Support the showWant More?👀 Watch on YouTube: YouTube ShowFull video versions and interactive live episodes!Bonus episodes, exclusive content, and 🌶️Extras: https://www.patreon.com/SwingerUniversity 🛳️🎉Looking for lifestyle events in your area? T4P is the go-to directory for clubs, parties, and resort events. Browse now at Ticket4Play.com Custom SU T-shirts and gear: Our Amazon StoreSwingerLinks.com - live schedule, special offers*, and our 🌶️links!Our Website - Leave us a message, articles, and sexy products3 Ways to get your question on our show:RECORD it on our website at: https://swingeruniversity.com/contact/EMAIL a recorded voice note to: swingeruniversity@gmail.comCALL: (916) 538-0482 and leave a voicemail.* We get a commission if you decide to purchase through our links, at no cost to you.
Transcript
We have to talk about something we've been genuinely excited about for months, and our patrons actually got a preview of this already. Jamaica! Yes, we are going back, and actually, we have a great offer for you guys. Yeah, it's Swingcation. It's October 11th through the 18th at Hedonism 2. And if you don't know what Swingcation is, it's pretty easy. Swinger plus kink plus vacation. It's a hosted group with real structure, workshops, lectures, real conversations with experts who are passionate about bringing and bridging that gap between the swinger world and the kink world.
And we're not just going as attendees. we're going as featured presenters, which is exciting. We'll be leading sessions. So if you come, we actually get to hang out with you. Which brings up something we should mention. When you use our code, yes, we got a code, you're not just getting a discount, you're getting the signature swing experience, which means $100 off per person, up to $200 per room, but it also means that we make time for you. An exclusive breakfast, lunch, cocktail hour, or one-hour and one time with us directly, plus more surprise benefits.
Here's something that's really unique. You could actually contribute by hosting a discussion or running a Skillshare. I know it's scary, but if you have something that you want to contribute, that's a big part of why this event is so special. Everyone there has something to bring to the table. All right, details. If you book before April 25th, you save $400. Plus, they gave us that special code that gets you an additional $200, and the special code is SWINGERU-VIP. So book through TicketForPlay.com forward slash Swinkie. That's T-I-C-K-E-T, the number four, play.com forward slash S-W-I-N-K-Y.
And use our code at checkout. And you guys, if you have any questions about the event, the resort, or what to expect, just reach out. I mean, we're here for you. We're happy to help. So once again, TicketForPlay.com forward slash Swinky, the code SWINGERU-VIP. We really want to see you there. Welcome to Swinger University. I'm Ed. And I'm Phoebe. Today, we are speaking with Brett Chamberlain, the Executive Director at OPEN, an organization for polyamory and ethical non-monogamy.
They're a non-profit advocacy organization working to advance legal rights and cultural acceptance for non-monogamous families and individuals. Since 2022, they have been featured in seven national media stories, such as the New York Times, NPR, and CBC. Past two municipal non-discrimination ordinances in Berkeley and Oakland, California.
Partnered with Out and Equal, the leading global LGBTQ plus workplace advocacy organization, partnered also with six Fortune 500 companies using their resources to advance inclusive workspace policies, collected 7,500 responses from the community on their surveys, support and serve people with peer support sessions twice monthly, and collaborate with over 60 community groups and creators. Welcome, Brett. We're excited to have you on our show. Hi, Ed and Phoebe. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, glad you could make it.
We're very excited to get this interview with you and really showcase or bring to light the open, the organization and just all the great work and programs that you have available.
So once again, excited you're you so let's start with this one this is here's a here's a slow pitch how did you get involved with open so i've been doing advocacy and activism for really my whole life i started out doing anti-war and anti-recruitment work in my home state of New Hampshire as a high school student, kind of coming of political consciousness during the early Bush years in the war on terrorism, to date myself just a little bit.
I was at the front lines of Occupy Wall Street as a college student, and after graduating from college, founded my first non-profit in environmental advocacy organization working on waste on college campuses. it was for a job in the environmental non-profit sector that brought me out to the bay area in 2016 and quite quickly i found myself becoming really immersed in the bay area sex positive and polyamorous communities and i found it really impactful very personally transformative it gave me access to these really wonderful, supportive, vulnerable, liberated communities.
It gave me access to new school skills and tools and vocabularies to pursue the relationships that were fulfilling for me. But in immersing in these spaces, I learned a couple things that really surprised me. And the first was just how widespread non-monogamy actually was. One in five American adults will be in a non-monogamous relationship at some point in their life, and about one in 20 describe their current relationship as non-monogamous.
And this, of course, includes the whole range of non-monogamous identities and experiences from polyamory to relationship anarchy to the swinger lifestyle and many more terms and labels that people use beyond those. The next one is learned that was really surprising to me was just how marginalized of an identity this really was. That even in quite progressive places like the Bay Area, my friends and my peers were afraid of being open about their identity or their relationships with their family in the workplace because of the stigma and the pushback that that can lead to.
And so it seemed that there was an opportunity for more advocacy in this space to push not only for acceptance, to end this stigma, to end the marginalization, but critically to push for greater rights, to dismantle the systemic barriers that marginalize non-monogamous families and relationships, and to ensure that people had access to the full rights and privileges and protections that we grant to various other identities and family structures. So I decided to take the dump. I quit my job and started putting the pieces together for OPEN the beginning of 2022.
We publicly launched the organization that spring. We are approaching in just about six weeks our three-year anniversary. It's been a really exciting ride since then. This is a really rapidly growing space, movement space, that I think has reached this critical mass. It's really wonderful to see folks stepping into their political power and really claiming our seat at the table and our voice in the conversation. Very nice. Very nice. And do you feel comfortable sharing your relationship preference? Yeah. You know, I've started identifying just as non-monogamous generically.
You know, as I mentioned there there i kind of came out of the somewhat more polyamory oriented bay area scene um and you know at previously previous times had identified as polyamorous i was describing my relationship structure and at the time i had you know one partner and we would you know sometimes play with other folks at parties and whatnot and they said to me you know that kind of sounds the lifestyle. And, you know, I think there is an interesting point there that these labels are all kind of squishy and bleed into one another. Right.
So, yeah, I think that labels are important for helping us understand ourselves and our experiences. But ultimately, I think that non-monogamy as the umbrella term is the most expansive. It's the most flexible. And I'll let you in on a little secret. As an organizer in this space, it's also very politically prudent for me to not pick a side, as it were. Right. Yeah, that's a really good point.
And we've struggled a lot with labels in terms of depending on who you're talking to or where they are in their journey, how progressive they are in terms of there was a term floated around when we first got started, which was progressive swinging, which was sort of poly, but sort of swinging.
And it's one of those things where it's like people are kind of creating their own terminology just to be able to describe their one particular unique slice of this spectrum you know there's so many different ways that people are ethically non-monogamous and you can't really put a single label on some of the things that people do because it's it depends on the weekend right they could change from here to there So which label do you stick with? So yeah, it's good.
I even find it interesting that we feel the need to put the word ethical in front of it because there's already a judgment, a stigma on non-monogamy. Why can't non-monogamy just be fine like why why does it have to be labeled with something why does it have to have another descriptor to go oh well it's it's ethical about it we're not cheating and i get it but at the same time it's kind of like using the negative to have to define what we're doing, which we tend to think of as being very positive. But yeah. Right.
And if I was to name the organization again tomorrow, I think we would go with a different name. Of course, it's a very punchy little acronym, but increasingly we're just using OPEN in part because the full name of the organization is such a mouthful, but also because of some reasonable concerns around the ethical label that you just raised. You know, there are already multiple words for non-consensual non-monogamy. We call it cheating. We call it infidelity. And so increasingly, we're just using the label non-monogamy, which really captures the whole range of practices within it. Yeah.
Yeah, that's great. I like it. What are some of the programs and services that you offer for people who are listening so let me start with our theory of change which is really just activist speech for how we're actually going to go about doing what it is that we say we're going to do right so our mission is to advance rights and acceptance for non-monogamous people how do do that? So it's a threefold approach. And I'm starting with this because our programs then kind of fall into these buckets. Yeah, it makes sense.
So the first is supporting non-monogamous communities and relationships, right? The idea is that if people aren't experiencing positive outcomes in their own lives, in their own experience of non-monogamy, it's really hard for them to then show up for the broader advocacy activities that we want to invite people in towards. So some of our programs in this area include things like our free twice-monthly peer support sessions that provide a safe and inclusive space for people to come together, connect with other non-monogamous folks, share what's going on in their life, get advice, and so on.
We've also published a range of resources that aim to help people navigate various systemic barriers or important life events, processes, and moments in our lives that aren't typically designed with our types of families and relationships in mind. So this includes things like our end-of-life planning and death care guide, right? This is like a really important and very difficult conversation like everybody in a family and partnership needs to have at some point. But again, these industries are designed with normative family models in mind.
So we've created a resource to help people navigate that. That's just one example. We've got a few others that folks can find on our website, open-love.org slash resources. So that's supporting the non-monogamous community. The next area of our work is invisibility. The idea is if people are experiencing positive outcomes, then they feel more proud, more ready to be visible about their identity. Some of the programs in this area include the annual Week of Visibility for Non-Monogamy. That'll be in July of this year.
We'll be sending out a save the date date soon and that's a annual global celebration where we encourage people just to show up and come together in community connect with other non-monogamous people where they live but also have conversations with their neighbors that may not be as familiar with the the identities and values of the non-monogamous communities that are interwoven with with of course every other community we've also done our annual community survey. We've run this for three years.
In 2024 we collected 4,500 responses from 70 countries, making that the largest survey of non-monogamous people published to date. And this really helps us get a grasp on the identities and the experiences of the communities we serve really across the world.
And critically this data not only helps steer our work but it also helps to substantiate some of our advocacy work and finally shape the conversation around non-monogamy so that data set gets used by academic researchers by presenters at conferences by journalists in their coverage of non-monogamy and so on so the final piece of our work is the advocacy work right and this is kind of where the rubber meets the road this is really actually passing laws changing systems our two major program areas in um in the advocacy sphere are our open workplaces initiative this is a workplace advocacy program that helps non-monogamous professionals safely open up about about their identity at work, but also push for more inclusive policies in the workplace.
So anti-discrimination and anti-harassment language in your hiring guidelines and in your employee handbook and so on. The other side of our advocacy work is the legislative advocacy, and this is focused on passing municipal level non-discrimination protections. So there's bar discrimination on the basis of family or relationship structure. As you mentioned in the intro, we helped get those passed in Berkeley and Oakland in California last year. That follows the lead set by Cambridge and Somerville, Massachusetts in 2023. And we're really thrilled to be scaling up that effort in 2025.
We're working with grassroots leaders in Seattle, in San Francisco, in Portland, in San Jose, and a range more cities. We've just published a comprehensive legislative advocacy toolkit collaboratively with a number of other organizations that really walks people through that entire process, top to bottom.
Everything you need to know to pass local productions where you live so we're really hoping that that resource can help people bring this effort to home to their community and we can expand the coverage of these productions from two cities in 2023 reaching four cities in 2024 to hopefully far more cities this year and in the years to come excellent oh i was thinking of colorado colorado might be good too too Boulder's on our list Boulder I think would be a good place to start yeah there's a pretty large swinging community there so yeah very cool Boulder's very progressive and college town that would be fun I'm very excited'm very, very excited for the direction your company is going and organization is going and we have more questions.
Let's see. How, how is open changing the public perception in regard to ad campaigns and media and how can people people help? Yeah, you know, visibility and acceptance is really essential when it comes to, or I should say visibility is essential when it comes to promoting acceptance. People are far more likely to accept somebody with an in with an out group identity, such as participation in non monogamy, if they actually directly know somebody who's non-monogamous, right?
So if your coworker or your friend or family member or a member of your church congregation is non-monogamous, it really helps you humanize that practice and realize that they're not out to steal your spouse. So we really do encourage people to be open about their identity if it's safe for them to do so.
Now, it's really important to put a caveat here that not everyone can be open about their identity if it's safe for them to do so now it's really important to put a caveat here that not everyone can be open about their identity particularly if you hold other marginalized identities discrimination and marginalization can compound as you have more and more identities so for folks for whom it is safe to do so we do really encourage you to think about having that conversation with your friend with your co-worker with your siblings your family members because every person that is open about their identity that helps chip away at that stigma and the misconceptions makes it safer for other people to be open about their identity so to help people do this we've you know this really cuts across a lot of our work right so as i mentioned in our open work toolkit, we provide tips for how to open up safely in the workplace.
We do social media education where we tackle myths about non-monogamy. Some of the really persistent and frustrating myths just keep seeming to come up. Um, we, uh, put out research, like our, um, community survey, we organized the global week of, um, visibility for non-monogamy that had participants in, I think, five countries this past year with dozens and dozens of in-person and virtual events. And finally, we work to get our story out into the media.
It's really important that we be reaching not just other non-monogamous people, but the general public in order to really actively push back against some of those myths and misconceptions and portray, present a more authentic portrayal of non-monogamy. Yeah, that's great. You make a really good point. It's one thing to see a TikTok post or something from an influencer, if you will, and something completely different when you hear a personal story and you know that person.
I can think of examples of a lot of people in the LGBTQ community who have friends and family who support that community and become advocates for that community because it's like their brother or their sister or their child. but anybody who doesn't have a close personal relationship with that they don't have that understanding they don't have that recognition that we're all people like we all deserve our own set of rights that every other person is entitled to so you know discrimination in any factor is not a good thing i've never really thought about identities being compounded.
And when you were saying that, is that where maybe you're open about being lesbian or gay and, and, oh, by the way, I'm also non-monogamous. So is that where you're saying where those identities start to compound and then that can have some some challenges for for individuals in their community or with their like family circle? Is that what we were saying with that statement? Yeah, particularly folks that have other marginalized identities are less likely to have, say, the types of class privilege that might insulate them from the implications of being fired from their job.
There might be existing biases that can intersect with the biases around non-monogamy.
So some ethnic identities or queer identities tend to be more sexualized and that can reinforce perceptions of non-monogamy that um that it's just about sex or that these people you know are out to steal your partner um so those are just examples of these ways that these different intersecting identities or marginalized identities can kind of come into conversation with one another or or amplify one another by reinforcing existing stereotypes about those different identities interesting i'd never okay can we talk about october for a second oh my god yeah i've been waiting for this we were invited to be guest speakers for two engagements on a six-star crystal cruise ship with 310 lifestyle couples and it sails from montreal to boston during the peak foliage season i'm super excited and honestly i'm really nervous yeah it's kind of a version of like a swinger ted talk that we're gonna have to do Oh my God.
I know more importantly if you know the brand it's llv luxury lifestyle vacations you may have seen them and they're sexy playmakers with their fun red hats this ship the crystal symphony is classy butler service for every single room Michelin rated restaurants full spa clothing optional sensual playrooms like everything theme nights and international dj so it's luxury and nudity oh man this is gonna be great the bottom line is we want you there with us it's 310 couples and like all their vacations they book up fast they really do their vacations are extremely popular so please come with us and in order to find it all you have to do is go to our swingerlinks.com and look for the llv sens voyage.
We hope you'll join us. Never knew that or thought about that. We're at a disadvantage for thinking about other people's shoes because we live in our own shoes, right? And we are Caucasian and middle class and a lot of other things that kind of give us certain privileges that we don't realize on a daily basis until you start talking about people, talking to people who do not have those privileges.
And, yeah, I think it's great that de-stigmifying any of these things helps to kind of reduce that compound uh issue and so all of us kind of working together to to to help take that noise down um i think will be really good for the community in general yeah and let me add two more pieces on this just i'm sorry do you want you want to go ahead yeah it's because i think this is a really important topic you know first of all this points to the importance of that storytelling of that visibility right like i know that i've learned a lot because as i described earlier like i had my own experience with non-monogamy but it's in a pretty progressive area i'm also a cis-gendered white man who has enjoyed a considerable degree of privilege as a result of those privileged identities.
And it's really important for me to be in conversation and for all of us to be in conversation with folks who have had different experiences. Because, you know, for example, if not for having had those conversations, I might be saying everybody needs to be open about their non-monogamous identity. And that can actually be harmful. It can put people at risk if we don't really acknowledge and understand that different people have different ways of showing up.
The other really important point to all this is that this work has to go both ways, by which I mean, not only do we as non-monogamous people have to be showing up in a way that acknowledges different identities, intersections with non-monogamy, we also as a movement have to show up in ways that work to address the marginalization that other people experience on the basis of those identities. So I can illustrate this, I think, a little bit better with a point. We did a panel discussion on identity and inclusion in the non-monogamous, non-monogamous communities.
And one of the speakers, who's the president of OPEN's board, William Winters, leads a Bay Area sex positive and polyamorous community called Bonobos. And William has a background himself in social justice and racial justice organizing. And he was discussing how to make your non-monogamous community or your events, your sex positive events, more inclusive on the basis of race. And he certainly provided some suggestions that you can take into consideration to do that.
But he also made the point that you're not going to solve racism in your non-monogamous community because racism exists out there everywhere, right? We live in a society with, you know, generational systemic inequalities and systemic racism. And so if we want to have safe and inclusive non-monogamous communities and sex positive events on the basis of race, we can't just fix it ourselves here. We have to go out there.
So this is why I think it's really important that as non-monogamous people and as a non-monogamous movement, we also show up for intersecting and overlapping movements for social justice, for racial justice, for economic justice and environmental justice and so on. Yeah. I mean, the easiest way for me to think about that is all the underdogs need to stick together. We're all fighting similar problems.
We're all fighting for in a sense our seat in society and and to be normalized so it makes sense it's interesting that that we're talking about this we just did an interview uh recently with alex lou for a documentary that he had produced called a sexplanation and largely the the documentary was about sex education in the united states and or the lack of the utter just disparity that we have of educating people in terms of just basic procreative recreational sex like sex has a whole bunch of different uses in in the world and it was interesting because we also touched on the LGBTQ community because he happens to be gay.
And so we talked about coming out and being open and all of those things that he had to struggle with in that particular facet of his life. And we'd gotten some comments about like, why are you bringing the gay thing in oh yeah on on the video and we were like well because hey there are bisexual people who are swingers there are lesbian and gay men who are in the lifestyle and I'm sure that that happens in polyamory as well, although we don't know any personally, but I can't imagine that there is not some Venn diagram where all of those things intersect at some level. So 100% agree.
We've all got to talk about this. We're all in this together. And there's a ton of overlap between all of these different communities, if nothing more than just being marginalized and being pushed out by the, quote, normal people. Right. Yeah. It's all about confronting normative models and the hierarchies that uphold those normative models.
And whether that normative model that you're addressing is whiteness or heteronormativity or mononormativity, we are confronting the same, if not the same systems or structures directly, then certainly the same metastructures of inequality and of marginalization. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Now, I know you talked about the peer support group that occurs twice weekly. Is that correct? Twice monthly. It's on the second and third Tuesday of each month. Is that that's on your website and is it free for people or is there a small fee? How does that work? Totally free to attend.
We do gratefully accept folks contributions. Of course, these these programs i'll take money to run and open being a non-profit we're not getting like major philanthropic funding we're not getting any philanthropic or any significant philanthropic funding um because that sort of legacy foundations are certainly not really paying attention to this issues uh we're not getting corporate sponsorship so we totally depend on our community to support our work um so folks can register for the peer support sessions at open-love.org slash peer-support.
And we're really proud to be offered to be able to offer those for free. You know, conventional kind of talk therapy is prohibitively expensive for most people. Health insurance, if you're lucky enough to be able to afford that, typically doesn't cover it.
And there are many fantastic non-monogamous um facilitators who do offer excellent peer support or partner support or coaching often though those do come at a cost as well so we're really thrilled to be able to offer this program free and accessible that's that's fantastic i love that i've i've found a lot of value in these virtual, any virtual event that brings together the community that we're in, the non-monogamy community. It's, it's so nice to just feel like you're not alone.
um and a lot of times people they're they don't have anybody to talk to there's no one in their family unit or friends that they know of that they can talk to and so it can be very isolating um there's also a discord channel that you have is that still going absolutely i think we have about 700 coming on 800 members in our community discord folks can find the link to our discord and to all of our social media pages at open-love.org slash hello open-love.org slash hello and in a discord we've got folks from all around the world having great conversations offering advice talking about great non-monogamous books but we also have organizing channels we're really hoping to grow a little bit more this year to provide a space for folks to collaborate around their work as community leaders or event organizers or advocates for some of the interventions we've been talking about today.
So we'd love to welcome folks into our Discord.
We've got folks from, as I say, all around the world and a whole range of non-monogamous practices, polyamory, the lifestyle, relationship anarchy, and many more that's great go ahead no wait what is relationship anarchy so there are many folks that can give a better definition than than i can um relationship anarchy is the idea that people should have the freedom to construct every one of their relationships according to the needs and desires and capacities of the people in that relationship without regard for prescribed forms or models of what a relationship is or should look like in any of the domains.
um so folks will often refer to this this tool that's actually a great tool for folks in any relationship structure called the Relationship Smorgasbord, which lays out various different dimensions of relationship from emotional support to co-parenting to financial entanglement to emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, kink, so on and so forth.
And through this tool tool the smorgasbord people can go through collaboratively with a partner or partners and talk about how they'd like to show up or what they're not available for in each domain of that that relationship and one of the things that i think is a really great takeaway from relationship anarchy that again i think is applicable for everyone is that you know every relationship we are in in our lives is a relationship right like relationship is kind of two words at once like we use in, in our lives is a relationship, right? Like relationship is kind of two words at once.
Like we use it to mean romantic relationship, but like I'm in a relationship with my friends, with my roommates, like with my siblings, just different types of relationships, but all of them can still involve a design for like what, what types of support do we want to provide? So I can have a conversation with, with my roommates about, Hey, to what extent are you available for emotional support, for example, or even I don't know.
for like what what types of support do we want to provide so i can have a conversation with with my roommates about hey to what extent are you available for emotional support for example or even you know non-sexual physical intimacy do we feel comfortable cuddling while we watch a movie even if you know again we're roommates so i think there's a lot of really great learnings and wisdoms that come from the the relationship anarchy kind of theory yeah and and i like the idea of in a sense anarchy just being the non-conformist nature of build your own relationship you know you construct it however you want and don't feel compelled to have to fit the once again that cookie cutter definition of what that means i can imagine it requires a little bit more creative conversation.
And that it sounds like that tool would be really good to be able to describe what that relationship is. And a lot of times we'll give advice to other swingers when they go, well, we've got this kind of interesting relationship. Does this ever happen? And it's like, well, sure, you'll want to do it that way. So it does exist. You just need to have a conversation with your potential partners to see if, Hey, are you on board for this? Um, one of the relationships was, uh, the woman is interested in full swap, but the man is only interested in oral. And it's like, great.
Try and put that into a cookie cutter definition. It's, it's a little, you know, it's an odd looking cookie.
We'll just call call it that it doesn't look like a traditional cookie that everybody else can point to and go that but that's perfectly valid for that couple and that's what they like to do so they just need to present that and say hey this is what we want but but sometimes it's it's hard to have the or challenging because you those are those instances where you want to look for a label to just go i'm blocked right and not have five sentences about it in a social setting where it's loud and no one can understand you right right so they were like looking for a definition i'm like oh i don't think i don't think there is one yeah and i'm like it's that elevator pitch right like it's hard to come up with an elevator pitch, something that you can say in like one or two sentences that, that just describes what you want, but you know, that something to work on.
The other, the other couple that reached, uh, the quad that reached out to us is they, they started, um, they opened up the relationship. They immediately fell in love with another couple and they've just been a quad ever since. And, but now the opposite partners are wanting to, to go out and experience other partners, not bring them back as a quad, but more on a swinging type of, of relationship. And so now there's this consensus between all four and how they feel about it. And so they reached out and said, is this normal? And we're like, it's normal for you. It is for you.
That's what you want to do. And that's how you, you know, you, that's what interests you. Then it sounds like you, you guys already have the, that great communication. I said, you, you've been doing this for years you clearly have your communication down it's what's working is is great you know just continue with that and have fun and report back yep yeah but you know those are the things where people are like they know they're doing it differently but they don't really they're not finding other people to relate to, to go, how do we navigate this? How do we do this new thing?
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Yeah, I mean, I think that the key takeaway point here is that, you know, we've been told for the longest time that there is one right way to do relationships right it's the monogamous relationship and what we're advocating for is that there are there are more right ways or acceptable ways to do relationships but let's say that you know we say okay monogamy is is a right way and also the lifestyle is a right way well now you've given people twice as many options, but they are still constrained, right?
If lifestyle only means one thing, if it only looks like one thing, well, people still don't really have the freedom to pursue the relationships that are right for them, that may fall outside of those boxes.
And again, I think that's a great takeaway from relationship anarchy, but I think an essential kind of theoretical underpinning for this advocacy work as a whole is that it's not just about elevating non-monogamous relationships to stand alongside monogamous romantic relationships at the top of the relationship stack right as the ultimate most desirable most important form of relationship but rather it's about saying all relationships are fundamental to the human experience and are worthy of respect and are worthy of you know care and compassion and effort and intention among the people that are part of them and also respect among the people that are around them right um and at the same time though as you do correctly i observed earlier and like labels are helpful having a pithy elevator pitch is helpful so yeah acknowledge that it goes both ways yeah it's always uh it's always fun it's a it's a good challenge though because i think yeah trying to come up with the elevator pitch or or the way to describe your relationship communicates that you have you're taking the effort to try and describe your relationship to other people and And I think that that's great.
And I think if you have to have a conversation about it, there are worse things to have conversations about. It's great. Like, talk about it. Exactly. How is open supporting people impacted by legal issues? So getting past kind of the social normalization of all of these various combinations of human beings, there's some stuff going on in terms of legal implications, I mean, even leases, um, I've, and, and health insurance with different standards for domestic partnerships versus married partnerships, right? Like there's all kinds of slippery stuff going on. How is open helping with all that?
You know, not as much as I wish we were able to, um, there are a range of issues at play there that you just touched on, everything from health insurance to child custody, which can be incredibly intense and high stakes and very heightened legal area. um what more what's more we of course have a federal system where there are 50 different legal frameworks in different states. A lot of this is regulated or governed at the state level. So it can vary quite a bit how folks need to address these challenges at the state level.
We're still, I would say, in quite the early stages of our efforts to provide people with more direct support in this area. Much of what we're doing at this stage is just through education. So I spoke earlier of our educational resources. An example of a resource that we are currently developing is around housing.
So this includes things like co-buying a house as a multi-partner arrangement, moving in if you're let's say that a third member of a triad or perhaps two couples decide to move in together and now you're in a situation where two of them are technically the owners of the landlords and the other two are technically their tenants but also their partners or their you know swing partners um so you know those are examples of the types of educational resources that we're hoping to put out looking ahead into the longer run for minority identities like like this typically there's a dual approach uh actually really a trifecta approach you've got the cultural approach then you've got the legislative approach and then you finally have a judicial approach right like that is what we saw with gay marriage to choose it like obviously relevant example where you had in some states it was being legalized through judiciary you had a legal case and the judge was saying, indeed, this is discriminatory and overturning a law restricting marriage to partners of an opposite gender.
Whereas in other cases, you had it going through the legislature, the state legislature passing a bill. But those judicial cases, those all depend on having lawyers, right? Like lawyers are expensive. And you also want to ensure that you're doing it in a coordinated fashion, because what you don't want to do is move forward with the case and have the judge say, yeah, actually, this discriminatory law is totally fine. And then you've established even more precedent reinforcing the law and makes it harder to overturn down the line.
So, you know, in the future, I do think that the non-monogamy community will have access to greater legal support and legal resources, such that we as a movement, and I use the royal we there, although I do hope that Open will continue to have a role to play in that, are able to deliver legal services, direct legal services and legal support to people that are going through these issues.
And we're also able to provide greater legal education right so lawyers through their professional accreditation or their law school should be aware of non-monogamy they should be aware of the issues impacting such that if a lawyer is dealing with a custody dispute wherein somebody's participation in the lifestyle for example is a factor that's being erased in order to deny them of their child, that lawyer is not being caught totally off guard and can know how to respond to that. We'll take, this takes time, this takes money, this takes know-how, but I think that we will get there.
In the meantime, oh, let me, I do want to highlight a couple organizations that are doing great work in this space. One is Chosen Family Law Center. They practice in New York and New Jersey. And the other is Chosen Family Law Texas. I should note there that both are organizations that we collaborate with. Stacey McClarty, the attorney from Chosen Family Law Texas, sits on OPEN's board. And of course, lawyers are typically barred to practice in a particular state.
So I know that only covers New York, New Jersey, and Texasas there are many other lawyers out there and certainly open or those providers can help refer folks to other inclusive and accepting lawyers another resource that can support with that is the kink and poly aware professionals directory maintained by the national coalition for sexual freedom and this includes lawyers and therapists so on, that self-identify as being kink and poly and lifestyle aware and ready to advocate for clients that hold those identities or practices. Very good.
Yeah, I could see the legal complexity with all of this. The law works very well to find something that is legal versus illegal. And because it's very clear cut, if you do this, this happens. But we just talked about this massive slippery slope of definitions of things. So I can imagine trying to codify that into a law book with very clear boundaries gets tricky. And maybe it's a matter of just having better definitions of what these things are or grouping things together and just say humans can do things. And maybe we should stop being so particular about which humans can do what things.
But yeah, I could see that. And I'll throw this out, any of our listeners or people who are watching this who are lawyers, who are interested in contributing to OPEN's cause and the cause of helping this whole thing get resolved legally, please reach out. We'd love to put you in touch or you can contact them directly. We definitely know there's lots of nurses and doctors and law enforcement who are in the lifestyle. We run across them all the time. But I'm sure, because we're a cross-section of society in general, that there are lawyers out there who might want to help.
Yeah, I'd love to hear from folks. And I do, I'm sorry, I keep stepping on you there. I just, I've got, I love talking about this stuff, but I do want to just want to double click on one point you made, Ed, and that is that, you know, in some regard, the law is black and white, right? Like it's written in this very elaborate, very concrete language, and yet that still leaves a lot of room for ambiguity. So for example, in custody cases, the standard at play is what's called the best interest of the child. And that's up to the judge to determine that.
And so if the judge has negative preconceptions about folks in the lifestyle and thinks that it's going to be dangerous for the kid to be around, there's always going to be people coming over, then they can deny custody of a child to somebody who participates in the lifestyle. Another example are anti-adultery laws. So there are 16 states in the U.S. that still have anti-adultery laws on the books. It's a felony in three of them. So if you're legally married and participating in the lifestyle, you are violating the law. Now, those laws persist, even though there was a U.S.
Supreme Court case called Lawrence v. Texas that, very long story short, said the government can't legislate what you do in your bedroom. And so these laws are, you know, on their face, unconstitutional, but just like Thank you.
v texas that very long story short said the government can't legislate what you do in your bedroom um and so these laws are you know on their face unconstitutional but just like remain on the books as kind of zombie laws yes and particularly in this political era like who knows how safe lawrence v texas is like anything seems like it could be overturned and all of a sudden these laws become relevant again so yes you know in some regard the law is black and white to the extent that like it is written in quite specific words.
And yet there is a lot of room for interpretation and ambiguity and gray areas within that. Yes. Yeah. And I think it's in particular, especially with laws, it's in how it is written that that ambiguity kind of favors There in certain areas. Totally unrelated case. For example, in California, it is not illegal to split lanes or to share lanes. So if you ride a motorcycle, you can ride between lanes. And that's just because the law doesn't say it is illegal to do that. So there's a hole, basically.
So we just need to create the right holes in the law so that we can all live together in harmony, so to speak. I know. Hey there, podcast listeners. You've been tuning into our episodes, but have you ever wondered about the steamy details of our adventures or maybe hungry for some sultry erotic stories well guess what we've got something special just for you our exclusive patreon page it's like a vip pass to the saucier side of our world so if you're ready for-the-mic experience, head over to our Patreon page now. Trust us, this is where the magic happens. See you there, Patrons.
I want to talk about the survey that you put out every year and how people can be part of that to provide data. When does the new survey come out? And then I also wanted to talk about any surprising statistics that you found with your last survey results. Yeah, our community survey, we've typically run it in the spring.
This year, we're going to be pushing it back to the end of year so that it conflicts a little bit less with our organizing around the week of visibility and also so that we can kind of hook it on to the like end of year, you know, Spotify wrapped news cycle and hopefully get a little bit more earned media coverage over it. So if folks are eager to take the survey, we'd really welcome their participation. The best way to make sure that you get it is by following us on social media or joining our email list. You can do that again via open-love.org slash hello.
We do quite a bit of outreach to folks across the non-monogamy space to ask them to signal boost it. So you'll be hearing from us in a couple of months there, Ed and Phoebe, to share it then as well. Excellent. A couple things that stand out. First, I want to note too, I would love to get more responses from folks in the lifestyle. Our 2024 survey had 6.1% of people who identified as lifestyle or swinger. About half of respondents identified as polyamorous. So it does skew a little bit more polyamorous. I'd love to get more lifestyle representation there.
A couple of things that surprised me, first of all, most people are not fully open about their identity in most areas of their life. So with the exception of with close friends, people are not typically open at work or with their extended friends or in their online or social media identity. I know that that may be more relevant for folks that hold like polyamorous identities that in the lifestyle, I think very understandably for folks in the lifestyle, because it's not necessarily sort of an ongoing partnership or relationship in the way that it might be for a polyamorous person.
Um, there's less of a desire or, or need to, you know, be able to explain that you're spending, you know, the weekend with your other boyfriend and his family.
Even so though, I think that people don't want to be afraid of being, you know, having it found out that they went to um you know on a swinger cruise or lifestyle cruise and you know worry about losing their jobs so there is still opportunity and really a need for us to promote acceptance and create a little bit more space for people to be open because even if you don't want to practically share you also shouldn't need to worry about being odin so those are kind of corollaries yeah I can see how being polyamorous would be more easily socially acceptable because you are in a relationship with additional people there's love there there's shared responsibilities.
Um shared responsibilities. And I can see the general population going, oh, okay, well, you just love more than one person. That's fine. But then when you think about swingers, the first thing that comes to everyone's mind is, oh, you just want to have sex with everything that walks by. And you're like no no no that's not it but so you it's that educating and reframing of people's minds and and trying to define it but yet in that definition even the swinger community as we talked about earlier, is very diverse. It is still its own umbrella, but it is very diverse in what people want.
Some people only want, you know, kind of a one night stand, if you will. That's no different than if you're in the dating world and you go to a bar um some people really want that friendship that close connection relationship with people they want to travel with them they want they don't want to be polyamorous but they want they want good solid heartfelt friendships um so it's interesting and different i can see how it's more challenging for a swinger to just come out and say, yeah, I went to, you know, a swinger cruise or a swinger resort or a swinger party.
Yeah, and I get the kind of the relationship in a poly relationship is very apparent to people because, like, you this intersected family right this extended this this non kind of uh nuclear family that that's created and it it's harder to hide that much like being gay right like you have a same-sex partner it's obvious that you're holding hands with this person. It's, you can't hide it. Um, you, you've got three people who are living at the same address. Like, are they the roommate? Like it's, it's out there. Um, there's a much more visible sign, but you're right. You know?
And, and I think that there's a little bit of a kink to swinging from the standpoint of tee-hee-hee, we're doing something that's secret and we're getting away with something. So there is a little bit of that novelty to it that I get why there are probably people in the swinger community who's like, well, yeah, don't take that away from me. That's kind of the fun part. I get it. Yeah, I completely get that too. And also there are people that don't want to have to worry. Like I've, you know, spoken with somebody who works for a major series of lifestyle clubs that folks have heard of.
You've probably been to. And she accidentally one day wrote to her kid's school, telling them how I'm going to be late to pick them up or something from her work email address and had child protective services show up at her door the next day. So it's like, listen, if you want to be if you think it's kinky to be secret about your identity, like no one's going to take that away from you. No one's saying like, sure, you have to label yourself as a swinger, like you must declare your swinger relationship.
right but so you can still keep it secret but the visibility means that for the people that like don't want to keep it secret secret or like just slip up and it comes out you shouldn't have to worry about losing their kids yeah oh yes 100 yeah i i went through a divorce and one of the first things that i was concerned about was because i was i was looking for full custody was if this comes out it's bad enough i'm already a a man who wants full custody of his children that's already difficult in many states but then you start to compound it with like well he's a swinger so clearly there's it's not a stable home environment um so yeah i i can absolutely see that and we have we absolutely had the conversation before our faces came out on our podcasts on youtube we were like is there a morality clause in our employment do we have to worry about this stuff like what what does this mean what are the potential fallout for all of this stuff and so yeah we've we've had that conversation a number of times and oh yeah so far we've we've been okay yeah yeah i'm glad that's the case for you it's it's interesting what your experience calls to mind is this phenomenon called minority stress which is really just like sociologists speak for the stress that somebody experiences when they hold an outgroup identity particularly one that they feel the need to conceal so as you just shared like i'm sure that that consideration that calculus and even the persistent risk that i'm still has never completely gone is a source of some anxiety for you.
And in fact, studies have shown that non-monogamous people actually do have higher rates of anxiety and depression. And it's theorized to be because of the fear that child protective services is going to call up. I'm going to lose custody of my kids. I'm going to get fired from my HR job. I'm going to get, or I'm going to get fired from my job or called into hr right so on and so forth right oh yeah or I'm going to get fired from my job or called into HR. Right. So on and so forth. Right. Ooh. Yeah. Feeling a little stressed there, Ed. I know. Thank you for acknowledging my stress.
So we touched on a little bit in terms of how people can help, but I want to ask it again. And that is what of the ways that, that people can help your program? And then we've got one more topic that we want to talk about because we've kind of, we've danced around it a little bit and we tend not to touch this topic, but we're going to touch it today. So stay, stay tuned for that. Um, but, but how can people help? Like, what are some of the best ways for, for people to help? So, um So we'd really love to invite people to just be involved across all of our work, right?
So join our email list, show up for peer support. We've got a book club that we've started running quarterly. There's just all sorts of fun ways that you could plug in. So again, the best way to find those, open-love.org slash hello, find all our social media and everything. We're also really emphasizing this year the legislative advocacy work that we're doing. So, once again, those protect people from discrimination on the basis of their family or relationship structure, and that is inclusive of folks in the lifestyle.
Just last week, we ran a advocacy workshop training and published a comprehensive legislative advocacy toolkit that we worked on with a number of other organizations and this really just walks people through step by step how do you actually pass this bill in your city in your town how do you reach out to council members how does the legislative process work um and you'll find everything you need there including like a sample email script that you can use for reaching out to council members, the info packet that you can bring to the meeting, sample scripts for like giving testimony at a public hearing when your bill comes to a vote.
So one of the most impactful and concrete and actionable and local and immediate things that people can do right now is to start working on these non-discrimination protections. So if you visit our website, open-love.org slash legislative advocacy, you can find that toolkit. You can also find a form to let us know that you're interested in working on this work and we can provide you with support. We can meet with you to help walk you through the process, connect you with other organizers in your city. So that's one of the most concrete and actionable things.
Otherwise, keep your eyes peeled for the week of visibility. Coming up this summer, we encourage people to organize local in-person or virtual events in their community. Keep your eyes open for the community survey coming later in the year, and please do share that. And then finally, as I touched on earlier, we really do count on people's financial support. We are community funded. 97% of our contributions have come from individuals so far. We have not yet closed our budget for the entirety of 2025.
So we really do need folks support to make sure that not only can we finish the year, but that we can continue to show up to continue to do this really important work because there is a lot of work that needs to be done as we've touched on in this conversation. If folks are interested in making a larger contribution, they can reach out to us.
One of the benefits of being a bigger donor is you get to say how your money gets spent so if you're interested for example in helping fund a lifestyle specific free peer support session i would really love to work with somebody and like slap their name on it um so lots of opportunities to help not just support our work but to actively shape our work um so you can find our donate page open-love.org slash donate and there's also an email a contact email on that page where you can reach out if you're interested in learning a little bit more a deeper conversation that's fantastic now let's ask the question that you want to ask and then i'm going to use the Dr.
Vivek Murthy. I'm going to use his as a summary. Yeah, I figured that would be good. Cool. Okay. One of the things that we have is a kind of unwritten, sometimes written rule in swinging is don't talk about politics. I'm going to break that rule just because we've been talking a lot about legislation and laws and things that are going on in this country and funding, funding for programs and nonprofits, things that are maybe equitable and inclusive and maybe the diversity of what's going on in the lifestyle and non-monogamy.
monogamy are how Have you seen any direct impacts based on the last three weeks of the current administration? Yeah. Let me start with where you started, which is they don't talk about politics. Listen, I get that rule, right? Like I go to sex parties too.
I don't want to hear people talking about gun control or like you know immigration while i'm trying to get down right but we have to talk about politics at some point because what we are doing is fundamentally political right like everything is political families are political relationships are political sex is political and if we don't talk about politics if we don't claim our voice in this conversation they are going to whatever they you want that to be they're going to make the rules for us right like we have to organize we have to get political otherwise nothing is going to change nothing is going to change we're not going to have greater rights we're not going to have greater acceptance we're going to continue to see lifestyle clubs getting shut down or rated by the police we're going to continue to see people get CPS caught on them.
Like these are political issues. We have to talk about politics. Now, to ground that a little bit more into the actual present political context, right? Like we're recording here, February, 2025, month two of the second Trump term. You know, we don't super know yet how this is going to play out. Certainly, we've seen a lot more direct attacks against other marginalized group, particularly immigrants, particularly trans folks. That obviously impacts monogamous folks as well, right? Like LGBTQ plus folks are more likely to be non-monogamous.
Trans folks are more likely to have like chosen families and networks of relationships and care outside of normative models. But in terms of a direct targeting of non-monogamy, we still don't know. However, we can speculate a little bit. As folks may know, the blueprint for the second Trump administration, the policy blueprint, is Project 2025. This is a 700-page document that outlines in excruciating detail the administration's goals for the second term. And the document starts with four promises, right? These are the four pillars of all of their policy work.
And the very first one of those promises is to restore the family to the center point of American life and protect children um and when they say the family let's be very clear they mean a heterosexual monogamous married couple with kids right so even if you're you know if you're in the lifestyle and still in an otherwise like fairly monogamous looking partnership whether you're married or not whether you're heterosexual or not be aware that like this still means that they want to squash us like they want to make sure that there are no lifestyle clubs left like they will pass local ordinances they will pass state bills to shut these clubs down they will make sure that there is pornography pornography is not accessible we've already seen states starting to raise um test bills to completely ban pornography going far beyond the existing states that have already passed age verification laws which means that you've got to submit your personal identity identifying information into a database in order to look at porn and then have it attached to your identity which i certainly don't want who knows how that gets compromised or he uses that um right to contraception is being called into question right like i think contraception is pretty important for folks in the lifestyle for everyone really um no fault divorce is even being floated by some like commentators on the on the right as being a target um wherein like you can no longer just divorce your partner without cause you need to have some some cause as i mentioned supreme court um precedent is very much on the chopping block so just as roe v first wade was repealed so could lawrence v texas which is a far less old precedent than roe v wade was and then it means that you could start seeing anti-adultery laws enforced and criminal charges pressed against people for participating in the lifestyle.
So we don't know, but we have very real reason to be concerned. The one more thing I want to note too, and I don't necessarily know even like what to say about this, but like there, I know that there are lifestylers that are supportive of the current administration. Like I know them individually. I know them have donated, which I'm very grateful for.
There are probably listeners of your podcast that are supportive of the current administration like i i know them individually i know them have donated which i'm very grateful for there are probably listeners of your podcast that are supportive of the current administration um i'm not going to touch on like the broader the broader stuff but i do think it's very important for folks to be aware that they may be putting themselves their interests their community at risk and i would encourage people if they do want to remain anchored into that political identity or in those political spaces I'll see you next time.
their interests, their community at risk. And I would encourage people, if they do want to remain anchored into that political identity or in those political spaces, to speak up, to speak up. Nobody can be on everything. Nobody can be across every issue. This is an issue that, if you're listening, you're probably participating in.
And so if you have the ear of people that are conservative, are you're in conservative forums maybe speak up and be like hey this is actually like kind of totally fine and okay and not hurting one and like essential american freedom to do what i want with my body and who i want so i just want to say like i don't want people to be turned off like it's no no surprise you know my my deeper feelings towards towards trump being like a queer bay area millennial polyamorous vegetarian that i am um but you know i i still want to speak with the folks that are a little bit more on the mega side of things and say like you've you've got a role to play in this too and in some ways you've got an even greater obligation yeah i mean, if anything, they are the voice of reason within their party to be able to say, hey, this thing that you're doing, this putting your thumb on this thing, I'm in that thing.
That's me.
And realize that while we don't necessarily agree on all the other things that you pointed out, you know, Second Amendment and immigration and whatever other hot-button topic it is, anybody who's listening to this podcast, watching us on YouTube, more likely than not, is part of this umbrella group of non-monogamy and there are issues that you brought up especially contraception and a bunch of other things pornography the one that comes to mind for me and we've we've talked about this a number of times and that's even sex toys there are states where owning or having shipped to your home a sex toy is illegal and so you could I'll see you next time.
There are states where owning or having shipped to your home a sex toy is illegal. And so you could face time because there are laws on the books. With the right district attorney, they will start pressing charges on those things. So if you're listening, this is incumbent on you to help protect the rest of the community. And think, if anything, think for yourself and think for your fellow swingers about how is this really going to swing against us and what are we going to do? How are we going to protect ourselves and protect our fellow community members from things that may be coming down?
And you may not agree with project 2025 or you agree with pieces of it the important thing is picking the things that you don't agree with and making sure that they don't happen so there you have it yeah because they're they're never the trump white house is never going to listen to me but they might listen to you so if there are folks that are interested in chatting about this like i'd love to like let's do like a mega lifestyle political action committee right let's you know like let's organize like let's reach across the aisles here and like let's organize for our shared interests that's fundamental to organizing and this moment calls for it absolutely uh couldn't agree with you more uh i wanted to talk about or or or kind of wrap this up, because I really loved what the last Surgeon General had said, and this came from Vivek Murthy, and I heard him on NPR, and I was driving, and so I was trying to get all, I was doing a voice to text, so I wasn't typing while I was driving but he he was he was really focused or his last um words as he was exiting his position was he's he said i really i i would love for all of us to return to who we fundamentally are and get back to happiness by focusing on relationships purpose and service and it just gives me chills to to say that and to repeat what he had said because i think that's just very profound and just very much needed right now, very much needed.
So I, I loved this conversation so much that we've had with you today, Brett, and I love what your organization is doing. We are going to continue to, to push your organization in any way we can. and we're looking for more ways to do that and so certainly when the study comes out and the visibility comes out in july we're going to be promoting that as well and gosh you know we're starting to organize some some events we've some ideas in our, in our pocket. So we'll have to do an event in July for sure. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. So any last words, Brett, before we do our final wrap up?
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for your support. Thanks to the listeners. I would be happy to hear from any of you. You know, we're really here to serve this community. So reach out to us at any time, info at open-love.org. I'll read the YouTube comments. I make a call a little too woke, and I'm happy to take it. But yeah, I mean, it's hard, it's hard to top that, right?
At the the end of the day like what what is there but connection but but joy and so yeah you know i really think that a just enjoy his future is achievable it's a multi-generational project but i really think that this is this is essential to it and um i think this work matters yeah we do too greed we do too thanks for tuning in. We appreciate you joining our community. Don't forget your homework, tell a friend about our show, and leave a review and comment if you wish. You can also leave us a voicemail at 916-538-0482, or you can contact us at Swinger University.
And if you want to be really, really anonymous, we have a cool voicemail system right there on our website where you can leave us a 90-second message, and we can even use it in the episode. So if you want to ask us a question, it's just burning to find out what we think about it, please leave us a message. I want to throw in before you say that final catchy line that we are going to provide everyone with all the great links that Brett was calling out today during the interview. Those will be in our show notes in case you're listening to the podcast. And they'll also be on YouTube as well.
And so don't fret. We will have all of those great links for you. Yes. So as we say, keep learning, keep growing, and keep it sexy. Oh, one last thing before you go. If this episode helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving a rating and review. It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they're searching for relationship education. And we've made it easy. Visit swingeruniversity.com forward slash review. All the instructions are there. Thank you for being part of this community. We'll see you again soon.
