Want to send us a message? In this episode of our podcast, we delve into the world of BDSM and Dominance and Submission (DS) relationships with Dr. Tiffany K . We explore the basics of BDSM and the different practices that fall under this umbrella term, including kink and fetish.You will find out how to get started in BDSM and hear us emphasize the need for open and honest communication (even if it s uncomfortable) when discovering new things together. Join us in this episode as we learn and explore more about the world of BDSM, Dominance and Submission relationships, and hear some sexy experiences from your favorite hot couple, Ed and Phoebe. Sex nerds unite!SHOW NOTES: 00:00:24:23 Who is Dr. Tiffany K ?00:02:43:20 What is BDSM? 00:06:59:10 Dominance and Submission A Relationship Practice00:10:59:18 50 Shades of Grey - How bad was it?00:15:53:08 DS Maintaining Balance in a Relationship00:21:12:07 Establishing Healthy Dynamics00:23:14:07 Kink, BDSM, Fetish... the Venn Diagram of it all00:24:21:01 Is the Swing Lifestyle a Fetish?00:25:25:23 Safety and Consent00:30:30:17 Scene Dynamics - How Does it Work?00:32:54:19 How Often Do Playtimes Happen?00:34:26:10 Jealousy in DS00:35:46:15 Communication is so Important00:37:07:12 Rituals00:39:58:09 Flogging Rituals, and a Hot Couple Ed Phoebe Watched00:42:26:11 Communication in the Lifestyle00:44:58:09 Drinking and Partying in Both Lifestyles00:47:39:03 BDSM, Psychology, Knife Play00:50:45:05 Practice and Progression in DS and Fetish play00:51:17:06 Uncomfortable Communication...or is it?00:53:39:01 Discovering New Things Together00:54:13:16 Ideas on How to Get Started in DS01:00:11:22 Sex Nerds Unite01:00:37:20 How Can Dr. K help You?01:02:53:09 Wrap Up Support the showWant More?👀 Watch on YouTube: YouTube ShowFull video versions and interactive live episodes!Bonus episodes, exclusive content, and 🌶️Extras: https://www.patreon.com/SwingerUniversity 🛳️🎉Looking for lifestyle events in your area? T4P is the go-to directory for clubs, parties, and resort events. Browse now at Ticket4Play.com Custom SU T-shirts and gear: Our Amazon StoreSwingerLinks.com - live schedule, special offers*, and our 🌶️links!Our Website - Leave us a message, articles, and sexy products3 Ways to get your question on our show:RECORD it on our website at: https://swingeruniversity.com/contact/EMAIL a recorded voice note to: [email protected]: (916) 538-0482 and leave a voicemail.* We get a commission if you decide to purchase through our links, at no cost to you.
Transcript
We have to talk about something we've been genuinely excited about for months, and our patrons actually got a preview of this already. Jamaica! Yes, we are going back, and actually, we have a great offer for you guys. Yeah, it's Swingcation. It's October 11th through the 18th at Hedonism 2. And if you don't know what Swingcation is, it's pretty easy. Swinger plus kink plus vacation. It's a hosted group with real structure, workshops, lectures, real conversations with experts who are passionate about bringing and bridging that gap between the swinger world and the kink world.
And we're not just going as attendees. We're going as featured presenters, which is exciting. We'll be leading sessions. So if you come, we actually get to hang out with you. Which brings up something we should mention. When you use our code, yes, we got a code, you're not just getting a discount. You're getting the signature swing experience, which means $100 off per person, up to $200 per room, but it also means that we make time for you. An exclusive breakfast, lunch, cocktail hour, or one-hour and one time with us directly, plus more surprise benefits.
Here's something that's really unique. You could actually contribute by hosting a discussion or running a Skillshare. I know it's scary, but if you have something that you want to contribute, that's a big part of why this event is so special. Everyone there has something to bring to the table. All right, details. If you book before April 25th, you save $400. Plus, they gave us that special code that gets you an additional $200, and the special code is SWINGERU-VIP. So book through TicketForPlay.com forward slash Swinky. That's T-I-C-K-E-T, the number four, play.com forward slash S-W-I-N-K-Y.
And use our code at checkout. And you guys, if you have any questions about the event, the resort, or what to expect, just reach out. I mean, we're here for you. We're happy to help. So once again, TicketForPlay.com forward slash Swinky, the code SwingerU-VIP. We really want to see you there. Hi, this is Phoebe. And this is Ed. Today we're talking to Dr. Tiffany Kay about the world of BDSM and kink. She's an expert in her field and we're very excited to interview her about a topic we know very little about. Dr.
Tiffany K is based in Los Angeles, and she's a certified holistic sexual educator and board-certified sexologist who specializes in kink education and DOM sub-dynamics within her private consulting practice. She has her doctor of education, has been publishing scholarly works, nonfiction articles, and erotica novellas since 2016. Her work is deeply rooted in embodiment, holistic principles, and empowering people to live authentically. Dr.
K is someone who is not only a proud feminist, but who is intimately familiar with alternative lifestyles and a member of the kink BDSM community for well over a decade. As a pansexual, she also integrates LGBTQ insights with cultural understanding. As a parent, she also understands the stigma around being true to yourself while maintaining a family and professional life. Her mission is to de-stigmatize alternative lifestyles and sexuality by holding a space for inclusion and acceptance for all sexualities and identities.
She loves speaking about alternative lifestyles, tantra, consensual non-monogamy, gender, and LGTBQ studies. She has two podcasts, The Submissive Next Door, where she talks about dom-sub-dynamics, communication, consent, and safety. And the other one is More Than Sex, which is about the study of sex from historical literacy and scientific perspectives for those people that are like very intellectual and like the brain stuff.
When she's not writing, traveling, researching, researching or teaching she's creating enchantingly provocative art projects and performances and of course we're going to have all of her links in our show notes but you can visit her on k-i-p-a-n-i dot life and then of course she's on youtube and twitter and instagram and we will put those in our show notes so welcome dr tiffany k we're so excited you're here thank you so much for having me i am very excited to be here and uh yeah no worries about being horse i i mean we're adults right i go to the bar every and again too. So it's all good.
So tell us, we are newbies to King and BDSM. I really kind of wanted to start it at the 30,000 foot view of BDSM, but then I started doing a little research and conversations that we had with some friends last night led me to some little more specific questions. But we will start easy. Like, what is BDSM? What is the lifestyle of BDSM? And what is role play? So BDSM is something that, depending on who you're talking to, is going to mean something a little bit different. So we have BDSM. It's bondage, dominance, or discipline, as well as the S sometimes will stand for submission or sadism.
And then, of course, the last one can sometimes be master or masochism. So it's much more of a mindset, and that's the way I always present it in any of my conferences or any of the discussions I have with others, It is not all about sex. It is very much a sensory, it's a way of exploring the different senses in our body and exploring what we are capable of within a dynamic. So for some, that may mean going into a scene and it's something that they compartmentalize and they have BDSM scenes that are much more one-off here and there when they can get there sort of thing.
You also have BDSM dynamics or DS dynamics, depending on, again, who you're talking to. I prefer DS dynamic because BDSM to me is much more of a part of a DS dynamic. You can have a DS dynamic and not have bondage in it or rope play or any type of um play impact and things like that you most people hear bdsm and they think oh you like to be flogged and whipped and all of that many people don't many people it is much more of a set role for each person and it can be even multiple people can be two people. There are definitely polydynamics as well that incorporate DS dynamics.
But the gist of it is it is a mindset that you're going into. You go into subspace. Some people may call that just sort of like a certain mentality that they take on or persona that they take on. And it's almost like a meditation type space for them. For the submissive or the person that is taking the role of a bottom, they are much more apt to want to serve in some way, or they may be a brat. And there's many different types of dynamics within that, that incorporate the BDSM aspect. Most dungeons incorporate the bondage and the rope play and impact play aspects of it.
But other places that you can go are things like playhouses that may incorporate other aspects that allow you to do more service style dominance and submission. So yeah, it's like I said, depending on who you're talking to, you're going to get different answers. There is a plethora of categories that go along with all of these as well. Some people tend to lean towards much more soft type play or like a soft dom and soft sub sort of situation. Other ones are, they call them hard doms or hard subs or slaves.
There's no right or wrong to do it and it's all about communication making sure that you're being very up front and honest about what you're seeking out of that relation what your relationship or seeking out of that scene and making sure that you have that trust in place without that trust things can go all kinds of sideways but you want to make sure that you have those types of conversations up front, you do your negotiation. And yeah, it's really about having that freedom to play with your partner, but also getting something out of it.
And there's a lot of the psychology that goes in behind it as well, why people seek it out, what it is that they're actually trying to get out of it from the deeper mental aspect of it. But at the end of the day, it's really more about just that role between you two that you've agreed upon and making sure that everybody is taken care of in the proper way, if that makes sense. Yeah. That absolutely does. It does. And do different people negotiate how they want to? It sounds like, oh gosh, it's so complex. I don't even know how to phrase my question.
It sounds like you could live it as a lifestyle day to day, or you could just have a set of scenes or dates or time that you set aside during the week. Like every Wednesday, this is what you do from 5 to 10, you know, after work. Or you do it three times a week or whatever. Are those two different dynamics that happen? Is it usually like one or the other?
Or can they blend or uh again it's a very complicated sort of sort of question because it's all dependent um what one thing that um always sticks out in my mind and there's another educator out there she's phenomenal highly recommend her podcast as well sunny megatron american sex podcast i love her phrase of kink is customizable ds is customizable so there is no right or wrong way so you develop something that makes sense for you and your partner and your current life for a lot of people who have day jobs or who are very much in the public eye for example let's say there's a politician i'm not going to name names but let's say there's a politician and they have a life that they can't, you know, fully express themselves in the way that they want to.
So they have set times aside each week that they can guarantee that, okay, this is what I'm going to do at this time. And it acts as sort of an anchor for many people, especially for those with ADHD. There's actually some really interesting studies that the Kinsey Institute helped to sponsor that is showing really that a lot of people that are in both the kink as well as the BDSM and the DS lifestyles, there's a surprisingly large number of them that have ADHD or that are neurodivergent in some way.
And it really helps them to have an anchor point to know that, okay, at this day, it creates a routine for them that they can always count on. And they have sort of a coach or a manager, the dominant, for example, that is there helping to provide this space and helping them to practice these different situations with different sensory development exercises, which would be impact play or other Thank you. provide this space and helping them to practice these different situations with different sensory development exercises, which would be impact play or other types of play.
In terms of the types of times that people can do it, for some, it's a lifestyle. And for some, it's absolutely just a on the weekends when they can get there sort of thing. And they just like to have and they have their scene for other people like myself it's much more of a orientation and there's an entire study going on right now again sponsored by the Kenzie Institute that is showing that more so many people that are they don't call it a lifestyle it's much more of an orientation because they're not looking at the gender that they're playing with or the gender of their partner.
It's that I feel I'm submissive or I feel that I am a dominant and it can be any gender. It doesn't matter to them as long as there is the trust and the negotiation and everyone's needs are being met. So for them, it's much more of a 24-7, which is the type of dynamic that I'm in. It's a 24-7 lifestyle where each day from morning till night, like there is a certain set of, I don't want to call them necessarily rules, but I have tasks that I perform. I have tasks that I keep to, that I've asked for because I know that they help me to better myself each day.
my dominant helps to keep me in line and you know we do a praise much more of a praise style relationship there is no negative feedback it's all positive reinforcement so that's something that we agreed upon so yeah it's it can be anything you want it to be It's fabulous. Ed was talking about how the movie. I'll launch into that question because it's a controversial question. Yeah. I never thought, well, let's. Yeah, let's go there. We could launch into it because it kind of plays into my question.
So we deal with stigma all time in the lifestyle in the swing lifestyle and you know everybody's first perception of course is you know austin powers and keys in a in a fishbowl and you know swapping is really more of less of a consensual activity and more of well this is just who i got paired up with, this is just what I, my lot for the evening. So we're constantly battling that stigma and then the negative connotation that the word swinger even has.
So I'll throw it out there because I know this is a controversial topic and a lot of people have very strong opinions about it in the, um, the kink and BDSM 50 shades of gray has set. I know i saw your face do that that expression right that's the public's first impression of of this community and all of the stigma and misconceptions and you know whatever hollywood took took well, they took some liberties with that. So how, how do you, how do you reeducate people?
How are you fighting that to, to help bring kind of the positive aspects of it instead of that really weird skewed view that movie portrayed? oh I love this question. I get this question a lot. Um, it's so I have a very, I have a very specific sort of viewpoint on it. Um, and it's not liked by everybody, but I'll, I'll explain it a little bit. 50 shades of gray. It absolutely is number one, not anywhere close to what an actual DS dynamic looks like. It is atrocious on so many levels.
Having said that, knowing the author of that book and knowing that she wasn't in the lifestyle, she did research to the point of like she went to a club, she read about some things and being an erotica writer myself, I'm involved in a lot of these erotica groups, people that are always helping to support each other and try to figure out how to market their next book.
And so many of them look at 50 Shades and it's like, oh, but that book, it launched all of these other ideas and other books and open the door to being able to write about taboo subjects and bdsm and they're they think that that's the way that you're supposed to write it and they don't understand because they're not part of the lifestyle right um we always have our our idea in the back of our head from that but there's another movie that came out years ago um called the secretary yes and the secretary i mean that's another one that's kind of like is it hot yeah but is it right no so you feel kind of weird about it right um so with 50 shades i think on one hand on a very small hand it opened the door to conversation and it made it more of a topic that was okay to talk about.
It was something that at least opened a door. So on that aspect, it did good. But on the other aspect, it's like, okay, now all these educators and especially kink educators, we're trying to clean up a mess that people think about when they hear BDSM and that's the first place that their brain goes. Yeah. Yeah. There was no consent. There was no negotiation. I mean, the only negotiation really wasn't a negotiation in that movie. Yeah.
So it's the way that I try and help people to understand is, listen, it opened your eyes to something new and exciting that you didn't think that you would like now let's take that step back and realize just like porn right you watch porn porn is not the way sex is i am sorry but it isn't so um you you see this fantasized version of sex in front of you and you have to have that literacy of knowing what is real and what isn't and pick out what is it about this that you like and how do you incorporate that in a safe way?
So it's really re-breaking it down a little bit and teaching a little bit of media literacy along the way. That's really the way that I try and help help do my part to clean up the mess that 50 shades really created yes yeah that's that's great yeah and so then that that goes into my my question of you know diving in and reading more about this community it seems much more it's's richer. It seems like what you said, a lifestyle, a way of having a different kind of relationship dynamic with your partner. You can give and provide something for them.
They can give and provide something for you that has different criteria within the relationship that you negotiate and it just seems like why not that sounds so wonderful and enriching and amazing to me how how do you even go about wanting to do that where do you start like what if one partner says oh my god my my day is always so stressful I just want to check out at the end of the day I want to I just don't want to think about anything I don't want to do anything I just want to relax you know I want everything taken care of for me and the other person maybe they feel the same way How do you negotiate who gets what and when?
Because we're both feeding that emotional bank account, right? And we don't want one person to be depleted. So how does that work? How do you even start that conversation? okay can we talk about October for a second oh my god yeah i've been waiting for this we were invited to be guest speakers for two engagements on a six-star crystal cruise ship with 310 lifestyle couples and it sails from montreal to boston during the peak foliage season. I'm super excited. And honestly, I'm really nervous. Yeah, it's kind of a version of like a swinger TED talk that we're going to have to do.
Oh my God, I know. And more importantly, if you know the brand, it's LLV, Luxury Lifestyle Vacations. You may have seen them and they're sexy playmakers with their fun red hats. This ship, the Crystal Symphony, is classy. Butler service for every single room, Michelin rated restaurants, full spa, clothing optional, sensual playrooms, like everything. Theme nights and international DJ. So it's luxury and nudity? Oh man, this is going to be great. The bottom line is we want you there with us. It's 310 couples and like all their vacations, they book up fast. They really do.
Their vacations are extremely popular so please come with us and in order to find it all you have to do is go to our swingerlinks.com and look for the llv sensual voyage we hope you'll join us um the first thing that i usually do especially with new new couples, when I'm working with them in a session is I ask them what it is about the lifestyle, if they've heard about it, or if they've read about it, you know, whether it's an erotica or they've done research on their own. What is it that they're seeking from it? Like, what is it that they're after in terms of the time spent together?
You know, is it just they're after relaxing and they just want things done for them? Because that's much more of a, okay, you're just tired and you want someone to do a little bit of caretaking. And you have to figure out, okay, what can you get out of it by reciprocating that in some way?
And you look at a BDS or a DS as a for me it's more of a flow of energy when one is kind of not carrying the load on their side the other one immediately feels it no different than any other relationship you have to have that level of communication and understanding and the negotiation there's i really like lists i'm a big one for lists and figuring figuring out okay what is something that I'm after what is you know what's my yes no maybe and everything in between and figuring out not just the sexual side of it but what about the at home side of it you know are you going to be the one that takes care of the laundry and what kind of a reward do I get if I do the laundry or what kind of reward or what kind of punishment or maybe the reward is the punishment.
All these different things to kind of help keep the house in order if that's something that's a goal. And that's another really big question to ask yourselves is what is the goal you're trying to reach with this relationship? And it's really a goal-oriented type of dynamic, right? So my goal, for example, when I first got together with my partner, my current partner, one of my biggest goals was trying to make sure I don't overload myself. I have 10 projects, but I only have time for five. And how do I keep my brain on track with just these five this week?
So we would have a dynamic where, okay, if I deviated at any point, then I would have a gold star taken away. And that was like my big thing. I'm a big one for silly stuff. You know, I like my gold stars. And if I did really good that week, I got gold stars and I got a spanking and it was really fun. And I started being like, Oh, this is exciting. I can, I have something to look forward to. Um, and that was how we developed our relationship by adding one thing at a time. Um, one big thing I see happen a lot with new people is what happens is frenzy.
They go into sub-frenzy or dom-frenzy and they want to do everything all at once. And they want to have a million tasks laid out for their submissive, but the submissive wants to take on 40-some odd tasks. And they jump right into it without really thinking it through, can I do this? And they get burnt out. And then they feel like a lot of animosity towards their partner, like, or they feel bad about themselves. Like I couldn't do this. What's wrong with me? Starting with one thing at a time, incorporating one thing a week or one thing a month until that feels good.
And you know, that it's a habit at that point and continuing to move from there. But the biggest one is just constant communication. Check in every day, especially if you're new. Check in with your partner every day with three very simple questions. How are you today? What did I do that made you feel supported today? What can I do different tomorrow?
Those three things every day, I guarantee you, you so much good feedback that you had you never would have thought that you needed and it's going to help you be in a better relationship and a better dynamic the next day wow my mind is just blown i had no idea that that this was part of the bdsm world yeah it's it's interesting. When you first described, well, the answer is complicated. Or the DOM sub world. I'm probably using the wrong term there. The DS dynamic. The DS dynamic. We're starting to get our lingo straight. It's funny because we're very steeped in swinger lingo.
And this is a tangential world, they do overlap a little bit. We see a fair amount of fetish play and DS dynamic play that kind of sprinkles into the lifestyle occasionally when you run across people who are into that. Um, it, I, I love what you're talking about in terms of setting healthy goals or realistic sets of tasks. And it plays into a lot of the whole establishing patterns or establishing new behaviors.
And that if you want to have a routine or you want to build a new skill that you you set aside a time each particular day and you dedicate that time each day and you start simple and it's that repetition that builds the habit and it's that healthy habit that you can establish and then once you've got that established then you can add another layer to it and you can establish a new habit. You know, if this goes to anything, right, you want to learn how to speak a different language or read more that healthy habit.
So it makes sense, especially in an environment where you may feel overwhelmed or you do need to decompress or you want to have more sexy time with your partner to establish realistic things, right? I can picture someone going crazy and it's like, okay, we're going to do a different scene every day. There's costumes and lighting and here's your script. That could get crazy like really quick. Yeah.
now the the dynamic is different from bdsm or kink or is kink and bdsm like on the same plane are they similar those two they overlap it's kind of like a really big venn diagram like there's certain things that definitely overlap with each other and there's other things that are completely separate. So BDSM is very much what a lot of people would consider part of like covering the DS dynamic. Kink is like the bigger, like the house that everything kind of sits in because kink really, I mean, if you think about the term of kink, it's much more, it's the freedom to play as an adult.
It is ability to just, you know, it can be anything. It doesn't have to necessarily be, you know, something that is sexual, but kink is very much something that elicits some sort of a pleasurable sensation within the body and it doesn't be sex so then swinging would also could, should also fall into that dynamic. I would think it was. Yeah. It's a bit of a kink, if you will, like watching your partner or somebody else. Yeah. That would be, at least for me, the times that I've experienced it.
I'm both an exhibitionist and a voyeur voyeur i i love that lifestyle i love going i miss play parties i haven't been in so long but it's um yeah we considered it a kink for us to be within that situation and being able to watch you know partner or be watched by a partner right um and yeah so yeah kink is that that house that everything kind of sits in and then BDSM and, uh, DS are kind of the, the overlapping couples that live within the house. I like that, uh, that analogy.
It makes me think of like a really big house party and you kind of walk from room and you're like, Ooh, what's in this room? And then sometimes the doors, the adjoining doors bust open and then things cross over. I like that. I like that. I, so then when you, so now that we've talked about that relationship dynamic, I want to talk about the sexual dynamic and more of what happens with negotiating that aspect of the relationship with your partner and then negotiating that with other people, like if you go to a playhouse or if you go to a dungeon, how does all of that happen?
I mean, specifically, I'm sorry. I'm thinking communication. I'm thinking drug use. I'm thinking rules. I'm thinking safety. Oh, absolutely. Safety within the community. Safety is the utmost. Consent is the utmost. It is, especially when you go to a good dungeon.
I've certainly been some not so great great places before too and where you just walk in and you immediately turn your butt around and you walk right back out um but uh some of the the better ones it's they have um you know the the dungeon masters you know dungeon master to me is very different from a dnd game for sure um but it's, you have the big quote unquote bouncers and things like that, that walk around and ensure, Hey, is everybody okay? Has everybody have what they need? Um, and a lot of those places, sex, a lot of times isn't even going on.
It's the sensory aspect, um, where you go and you, there's, there's a backup. There's a few different types of ways ways to to go about it so you go and first of all if you're in a dynamic you have the negotiation talk you discuss especially you know yes no maybes what are you okay with what are you not okay with what are the absolute you know hard limits you have safe words established or some sort of a safety signaling system. I have both safety words that I recommend to my clients as well as a nonverbal signaling system. Because sometimes you may be gagged.
Sometimes you may just be so ridiculously caught up in the moment, you can't even find your voice. So you need to have a way. Mine is a five- rule. Other people may have a, like a squishy ball or some sort of a tool that they have in their hand. And if they drop it, everything is done. That's like the signal. So there's a lot of different ways that you can have the safety measures put into place. You obviously discuss well in advance, you know, things like when was the last time you had STD testing?
Can you show me, you know, proof that you've had this testing, if there's going to be sexual things involved or fluid exchange happening? Um, what sort of precautions are we going to be taking? Uh, what are you trying to get out of this scene? Is this a scene that you're trying, you know, are there going to be triggers I need to know about?
Um um especially for the more edge play type scenes uh those are things like um interrogation scenes um cnc scenes or consensual non-consent um those are very you know triggers can happen for sure and you really want to make sure you've localized what those triggers are right and then you have situations where you go to a dungeon. There's things like pickup play scenes that you can get involved in where you find somebody there. You go into a room, well, you chat for a little while, you kind of vet them out, you get to know them a little bit.
You go into a room, you negotiate what you want out of that scene and things. If your partner is there, sometimes it may be a double dom scene. So you have, for example, as a submissive, you would have your dominant there. And the idea is that you want to be dominated by two doms. Maybe it's a male and a female, two males, two females, whatever. And you discuss what that role is going to look like. Everyone kind of knows what their expectations are of the scene and you proceed to have your scene. But again, not all the time sex is going to be involved.
Sometimes it's a flogging, it's a whipping, interrogation, humiliation, degradation, anything like that can happen during those types of scenes. And then another thing that you have to discuss is aftercare. How do you need to be taken care of afterwards? What is it that you need? Do you need food? Do you need water? Do you just need to be left alone in a room? And if you're going to cry, do I need to be aware that emotional things may happen? And are you okay if you're crying? How can I help you through that? And then do you want to be called afterwards? Do you want me to check in on you?
And aftercare can last an hour after the scene. It can last a week after the scene. Do you want me to call you and check in on you a week later? Things like that, that most people don't necessarily think about. And then they get involved and they're like, wow, I feel really weird after this. What's wrong with that? Chances are aftercare was not fully discussed afterwards. So yeah, there's a lot of those different things that can, that go on with it.
How, how often do couples go to a venue where they are, you know, discussing a scene that they want to do, you know, with somebody else that they're not doing with just their partner. And I'm fascinated by that because, you know, as a swinger, you, you go with your partner. It's so different. I mean, we have our sets of rules, you know, consent, you know, touching without, but these rules they're, they're so well known that they're really just not spoken anymore.
So no one, there's no, there's nothing sexy about it it there's no mental stimulation about discussing what you like you know I like this type of thing to happen I want you know can I say things on YouTube I'm trying to keep it a little clean but you know I want this type of stimulation on this part of my body right or when i and i like this and i like it you know in this method or this way with this type of pressure none of that is discussed in in the swinging world now if you have dedicated partners play partners that you that are close-knit but typically when you go to a party none of that's discussed and it's um it's fine it's just I know I have a certain tone to my voice I guess it's because I'm I'm feeling a little disappointment in that because it's it's something that I would prefer that happened yeah as I've progressed in the lifestyle um not that that's good or bad it's just uh the bdsm world is starting to sound more appealing to me because of that intellectual component the ability to stand in your own person and and with that confidence and ask for what you want and to know what you need and to be able to express that and to be able to surrender to that is very powerful and freeing.
And oh my God, it's so exciting. So I think we're going to be signing up for a different kind of website after this. It's different for everybody. I know some people, I'll give you an example. My partner and I, we tried to go like twice a month where we could go to a dungeon. It was more of a, it was a mansion that was in the Hollywood Hills that was well known in the community, both in the swinging community, as well as the BDSM community, because they had a separate room that was all dungeon. And then the rest of the house was like a playhouse. And before that, this was pre-pandemic.
So it was something that we did, to me, twice a month was pretty frequent. But certainly people that are in other types of dynamics that are distance dynamics, a lot of people in BDSM and in DS dynamics are very much at a distance where they're across country. Some of them are across continents. Um, and that's how my partner and I met. We were originally, when we first got together before we got married, um, we were contracted, uh, Dom and sub and we lived eight hours away.
So it was this understanding that, okay, we can't always be together, but I know that the sensation play is something that you really need. I'm okay if you want to go and have a pickup play session. I would like to know beforehand if you're planning on having sex with that person, but if you're going to have a pickup play session and you just need to get that out, you just need to go flog somebody, have your negotiation, go have a great time, can't wait to hear about it. It's very, very muchion at that point. Yes.
And a lot of them and a lot of us in the DS dynamics, some are very much possessive and they don't want to share in that way. And they just go and they prefer to use the facilities and be watched rather than have anybody else be able to touch their submissive. But one thing I have to say I love about, one of the biggest things that was a turn on to me about being in a BDSM dynamic was when we would go to a playhouse or we would go out into the community and see people, no one would come up to me and just immediately start talking to me.
They would go to my dominant first and say, may I speak with her? That was a turn on to me because there was so much respect in that of, is it okay if I have this conversation? And he would always look at me and say, are you okay with this? And it was just that level of like, wow, I'm being taken care of. If I'm uncomfortable, I give the signal and we're out. It's very, very nice. So yeah, some people in distance relationships, they may go out once or twice a month. They may have closer partners that are just strictly play partners or just scene partners.
But for the most part, it's just different for everybody. It's whatever you want it to be. Here's why we sail on Virgin. It's adults only. No kids screaming at breakfast. No family buffet lines. Just champagne at noon, late night pool parties, and people who actually want to be there. The vibe? Think boutique hotel that happens to float. Tattoo parlors, drag brunch, restaurants you'd actually pay for on land.
Plus, when you're looking to connect with other couples who know how to have fun let's just say virgin attracts a very specific type of adventurous no wonder breadcruisers here just your people it seems like the communication is at a much higher level in your community, which I would imagine brings that community together in a tighter, more of a bonded way.
It, our community is very close and tight knit as well, well but it it lacks that explicit type of communication and and sometimes the the events are more party and less yeah and i think we were talking about this today and um before the interview in just how how comforting and refreshing it would be if we if we were better at having those kind of upfront conversations how much better would the experiences be if that negotiation happened and how sexy would it be to kind of do that foreplay that mental foreplay that conversation foreplay to to kind of go oh this is what's on the table for tonight we we don't do as good a job as swingers as we probably could and i think we could learn something from the the ds community for that aspect it's it's interesting because this kind of plays into one of the next things we were going to talk to you about, and that is it's almost ritualistic.
There's a certain ritual to that negotiation up front, the conversation, the buildup, and then, of course, the play session. And you described the aftercare. Describe to us some of that ritual and that headspace that you get into for that ritual. Oh, this is one of my favorite topics the rituals are absolutely everything um it there's so much ritual within the the both the bdsm the ds the kink world it that is one of the biggest drawing points for me and what seems to be a big drawing point for many others.
And a lot of people actually from the Tantra communities find an overlap within it as well because Tantra is very ritualistic. It's embodiment. You have to get within yourself.
You're focused on your sensations, on everything going on in here more than what's going on in your head and that's very very much in line with being in subspace in dom space you have to be within your body and sharing this energy with your partner or partners in order to make that experience what it absolutely can be and should be and when it comes to rituals i mean you you could certainly look at negotiation, at vetting, negotiation, consent, and all of that as part of the ritual aspect, the pre-scene, during the scene, post-scene, after care.
And then within the scene, there can be several different rituals as well. A ritual can be your space that you're in.
You walk into your space and you want to feel sexy when you're in that that space getting ready to go through whatever scene you're going to be going through you want things that are maybe comforting or maybe something that's you know leather and chains whatever your vibe is the space can be part of that ritual one thing that my partner and I continue to do and many people that are collared within the community there's a collaring ceremony when you first get your collar and then there can be a ceremony for taking the collar off as well as placing it back on mine we have a ceremony where i recite a creed and it's something very personal between the two of us where i'm devoting my surrender and my submission to my dominant anytime this collar gets put back on my neck.
And it's like a reaffirmation of our dynamic, of our understanding, of the consent. Every day, I'm giving him consent in some way that this is something that I want. I'm still happy doing this. And at any point, I know I can take that back and say, I'm done. I can't do this right now. I can't do this today. Um, so there's, there's so much ritual in it and it's, Oh God, I love the flogging rituals. I love so much about it. It's just, it's fabulous. I do. I, oh my gosh.
When, when that was the first I'd ever, um, experience I'd ever seen of, you know, in, uh, in the King or BDSM world was, was flogging at an event and I was just fascinated and just, I felt so alive just watching it. I remember my skin was just tingling, and I um I had asked the gentleman who was who's doing the flogging of this woman that was on the St. Andrew's cross um if I could touch and he motioned to me uh the the rabbit skin for mitt and so then he handed that to me and he said you know now rub her rub her here when I tell you to.
So, then I got to do that and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And it was something about that energy between him and her and me and being part of this dance was, oh my God, it was a High, Those are the kind of highs I really, really love. It's just not like any other kind of high. And every time there's a party that we go to where someone is very good with that dynamic, it's magical. We sat and observed one last weekend, the interaction between them for 20 minutes. And he'd, I know, it was, oh my God, it was amazing.
And then at one point, you know, then they took breaks and he'd give her some care and she'd, you know, lean up and they'd kiss and he'd caress her and they'd talk and he'd say little words to her and then she'd go back down on the bed and then he'd start again and i was like oh my god it's amazing oh my god so cool i i was just the interplay with them was was it was very sensual and very touching it didn't hurt that they were also very good lookinglooking. But even then, I just, the act of something about that type of pleasure, I don't know. It really is arousing to me.
And I, getting back to, I think we could be better swingers by doing better, having better communication, making better requests or more straightforward requests would probably make our experience much nicer. Right. Right. But I will say it it is it is challenging when you go to some of these events because they tend to be very party centric where and I say that there's a social aspect, of course, right?
You need to, you know, break the ice and people sometimes need a little, you know, alcohol or whatever they're taking to, you know, feel comfortable comfortable in a social setting in their situation wherever they are in the swinger lifestyle but then that tends to get in the way at some point during the night where you know they've had too much or they just really can't communicate to you what what you want or what you you know are asking for and you don't feel safe that they could provide that so it's a it's a tough way to trying to find a sober swinger is very difficult we did it for the first three years of our experience and and we we really liked that and it was mostly out of my fear of you know know, what was going to happen, right?
And I knew that, you know, I need to take care of me first and foremost. I mean, he is, Ed is obviously near my side, but if we're in a play situation where he happens to glance away and a random hand comes over or something, I need to, you know he's not he didn't catch it i need to be able to right take care of myself so i just wanted all of my my facilities on point you know and um but you know lately we've we've um started to use, you know, alcohol a little bit like a drink or two here.
And honestly, I think I'm going to stop with that because it's it's OK, but it's a different type of experience. And I think I want to take our experience somewhere else. That's where I'm going with that. Yeah, yeah. Within the swinging community, there's definitely more of this, you know, party aspect where people are letting their hair down. As a matter of fact, the first couple of years we were there, we were like, this feels like a frat party. These are people who are newly empty nesters and they're letting go, like completely letting go of everything.
We found out later that there was more going on that we didn't know, but there definitely is that kind of an aspect. Now, what's interesting is with potentially the danger and risk that some of these pain play has, and I would classify it this way, but a little bit more of the blood play, for example, or knife play, where it's even more risky, where you're potentially exchanging bodily fluids, but you're also penetrating the skin. How does the negotiation or how does that conversation go in terms of drug use or alcohol use? Is it frowned upon? Is it even permitted? But it isn't even permitted.
Again, depending on your community um and just like with any other community you're going to have great experiences in great places and then you're going to have the bad apples that are going to come in and they're going to create a bad name for the situation um they're just recently but there there was a situation where there was one dominant that was in the community, not in my personal community, but it was across the country. And he had taken one, he had three submissives and he had taken one into a room and was at a dungeon and had was in this middle of a big scene.
And she was putting her hand up to say, stop. And he didn't stop. The entire community like rallied around her and basically kicked him out of the community saying, you're no longer welcome here. We're going to help this girl get, we're going to help her to get help. And we're not going to do this anymore with you. He was basically blacklisted because of it. So there's very much a sense of protection within the community. People are trying to protect one another.
And because of the stigma, because of a lot of the stuff, like you mentioned, some people that are into edge play, needle play, knife play, CNC and things like that, you run the risk, just like in the swinger community of, you know, if your local job happens to find and, oh, God, what's going to happen? You know, you're going to be persecuted or someone's going to think you're a deviant of some kind. For a long time, BDSM or DS Dynamics, dominant submission, sadomasochism was classified in the DSM-5 as a paraphilia.
So, I mean, you had like all of these things that kind of sat against you and it was just declassified a few years ago so we're still trying to get out from underneath that that hole that you know the the psychological community had kind of dug for us and now that psychologists and therapists and sex therapists and things are starting to see the benefits of it and how it actually can help a lot of people recover from trauma and build better lives for themselves, create goals, all of these different things. It's definitely becoming a little bit easier.
But in terms of in the community itself, you know, when you're dealing with things like that for negotiation, usually when it comes to edge play, you're looking at vetting someone a little bit longer. You want to make sure that you've seen, okay, you're clean. You don't have any type of things going on, no STDs. You're taking precautions. The places that do some of those edge plays are usually a very close-knit community.
And even to get into a place that is doing edge edge play like that they're vetting you just as much as you're trying to vet them and usually people are wearing gloves people are wearing masks like it's almost like going into a surgical place like things are sterile you're making sure there's an autoclave nearby there's a lot of things that go into it and then there's also the rather than jumping the gun and going right into all of that super edge play stuff um there are things that you can still do in the meantime there are like um acrylic or dulled wood knives and things if you're trying to do knife play for the first time and there's a lot of great etsy shops out there that make some beautiful ones um that you can use to start getting into that and experimenting with it without it being something that is going to draw the blood right um but even with a paddle you know you spank a little bit too hard and you have god forbid that someone forgets to remove some rings on their hand and they give you one good spank um it can potentially draw blood.
I've seen women walk out just black and blue from the top of the hip all the way down their thigh. And sometimes there is a little bit of blood and that's where aftercare comes in and all of that. But usually there's a decent amount of vetting and whatnot that goes on. And you can negotiate that too. Hey, if it looks like I'm getting too red, if it looks like I'm getting too much abrasion, stop. We're going to go ahead and call it at a scene if it's somebody that you are not really comfortable with just yet to go that far with.
so there's it's a matter of being very open very very open with your words with what you're after what you're okay with, and thinking about all of those steps well in advance before you get into a scene like that with somebody. It's communication on steroids. That's the best way to put it. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And I think there's there's as you described kind of the the build up or the the practice sessions to to get to that particular level i it makes sense that that's true not of just the the edge play but even of the the pain play and the spanking right like you're going to start with a nice soft flogger and not go straight to the really big wooden paddle. Hey there, podcast listeners. You've been tuning into our episodes, but have you ever wondered about the steamy details of our adventures or maybe hungry for some sultry, erotic stories. Well, guess what?
We've got something special just for you. Our exclusive Patreon page. It's like a VIP pass to the saucier side of our world. So if you're ready for an exclusive behind-the-mic experience, head over to our Patreon page now. Trust us, this is where the magic happens see you there patrons i almost feel like if we started being that direct with our communication it might make people uncomfortable though. Because no one's used to that type of communication in the swinger world. I agree.
But I'll also say we've done some things recently where we've had that conversation where it's, hey, you know, if you need to take a breather during one of these sessions or something just bothers you, we're totally okay with you just going, I need a timeout. That's true. And you can watch the relief on, on your, your potential play partner, your play partner in the room, just like, Oh, that's so good because we were going to give you the same benefit of the doubt and let you have that, but that communication doesn't always happen.
And I think it's important and I think we could do better at it. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. I miss it. It isn't as often, it isn't done as often as I would prefer it. It's usually done always in the bedroom with people, especially new people when you can tell that they're nervous. I always tell them basically what Ed said. And I'm always very mindful of the other woman and her facial expressions and kind of her energy. And I can kind of sense when she's pulling back or a little nervous about something. And if she doesn't have the words to say something, I'll check in with her.
Hey, how you doing? Are you okay? You want to continue? You know, do you feel comfortable? And she'll nod her head or say yes or no, and then we'll continue. Thank you.
are you okay you want to continue you know do you feel comfortable and she'll nod her head or say yes or or no and then we'll continue but yeah yeah and and the dynamic of that to just kind of round that out there's the comfort of knowing that you can say something like that which which i think a lot of swingers are are uncomfortable with it they don't want to ruin the mood they don't want to like feel like the or the other couple um make them feel awkward or who knows or or they just don't know what they like a lot of people don't know what they like i mean there are a lot of things I didn't know that I liked until I got into swinging and someone else was there and tried something and I went oh my gosh that that was amazing I didn't even know I liked that I would have never even thought of asking for that so the little you know accidents you know um are great and kind of fun if you know if you're open to it because then new things new experiences happen i think the last question that i have would just kind of round it up is for the swingers that are out there who are maybe interested in you know dipping their toe into the the dominant submission what are some steps?
What are some like first things that they could try to see if they like it? And, you know, maybe some beneficial things besides the things that we've been talking about with communication and negotiation up front, which I think everybody would benefit from that. Maybe you can give us like a few dabbly things that we could try to see if we like that. I love dabbly things. Um, there's a few different things that you can do.
So if you're already in an established relationship and you are looking to experiment just with sensation play and being, you know, either a submissive or a dominant, um, one number one piece of advice is I don't care whether you are a brand new person to the DS world or you've been doing it for 30 some odd years, you will mess up and it's okay. And a dom is never expected to know everything. You're going to get into a scene and typically the dominant is running the scene of some sort. And there's moments where they're just like, oh shit, I completely forgot what I was going to do next.
And they get that and they start getting worried that the sub is going to have sub drop and they don't want to ruin the whole thing. It's okay. It's always, you're always going to have another scene. You're always going to be able to get back into it. It may take a little finesse, but it's okay. So that's number one is just breathe through it and know that you're not expected to make it perfect. You're just expected to have a good time. And the one thing for new people, try spanking. Try different ways of spanking, making sure that you know what feels good on that person's body.
There's definitely a lot of good websites out there. There is KinkEDU, which is a fabulous website. I think it's either KinkEDU or Kink.com. Sunny Megatron has stuff on there. Her website is fabulous for teaching different things. Anytime that you have an opportunity to go to a class, I guarantee you most areas have some sort of a DS or BDSM or a kink workshop that's going on somewhere. Even if you don't get to something like that, a Tantra one, it really works well because it's going to teach you the same principles for embodiment.
But starting slow with things like spanking, starting very slow with just feeling your way through what being a submissive feels like or what being in a dominant role feels like, setting aside a good hour or two to help get yourself into that space. What does it feel like to kneel? What does it feel like to just let the world drop off and truly surrender? Practicing some of the wording, you know, like if you like being called a good girl, you know, how do those honorifics feel? How does praise feel? Are you a tendency to brat out?
You know, are you looking more to have that sort of power exchange of a fight rather than a, you know, purely pleasurable experience. I have a tendency to be a brat sometimes. And yeah, it's fun. Just kind of poke the bear and see how far you can get with it. Always with consent, of course, making sure that you understand what your partner is okay with, like what's too far, what isn't far enough, and those types of things. Practicing your negotiation skills are vital and practicing with each other before you go to a play party, absolutely vital.
Getting a flogger, if you want to try flogging for the first time, I highly recommend a suede flogger. They are soft, but they can sometimes have a little bit of a bite to it. I recommend having something soft to help the skin afterwards. If you're going to be playing a little bit rough, make sure you have an unscented hyperallergenic lotion to be able to rub into the skin afterwards. Having that massage is amazing. Keep hydrated. That's a given always make sure you're well hydrated. Um, and in terms of collaring, don't worry too much about the whole collaring thing.
Not every submissive is collared. Uh, some submissives don't want to wear a collar at all. They wear a ring or they wear a bracelet. Um, some even have a key chain. I have, my first one was a key chain that it was just a little, little thing that said owned on it. And I thought it was really cute. Um, so there's a lot of different things that you can do in terms of that. And then if you go to a play party for the first time and you're looking to be, or if you're going to a dungeon for the first time, know that the expectation of sex is very rarely on the table.
It's usually a scene that you are looking to engage in and you can absolutely, you know, that's part of the negotiation process. Are you looking for fluid exchange? Are you looking for, for sex involved? Are you looking for oral? Are you looking for touch? Um, what sort of sensations are you looking for? What are you okay with? What do you need afterwards? And having those conversations with that person before you jump the gun into getting into a play session. Always making sure just that you got to be on point with your communication before you do anything.
And then lastly, there's a lot of great websites out there for classes, for online classes. I know the Sexual Health Alliance is one that I always send people to because they have some great workshops. Midori is a fabulous shibari and rope artist. She comes from Japan, and she's been teaching kink for 30 some odd years. She's one of the best out there, and she's always running classes. She has a Patreon as well. Yeah, one big thing with DS people, with people or anybody in the kink world, we are sex nerds to the nth degree.
So there will be a class, there will be a book, there will be a podcast on something that you're looking to get into. And just devour as much of it as you you can you can't get enough of it that's awesome that's great that's great advice if someone is you know they we've we've listened to the quilt tips and they've jumped in but they've they've got their head underwater and they can't get out, or they don't want to dive into all of the resources out there on the internet because it's just too overwhelming. And they just really want to, you know, talk to you, right? They just...
They want to be told what to do. They want to be told, right? Because we're all on information overload, you know, all the time. And sometimes, honestly, really, I'd just rather pay somebody who's an expert in it and just tell me what to do because I'll just write it down and I'll just do it. So what do you have for people where they can come to you for what they want in this? So I have a private practice and my private practice, you can find it on my website. I also have a platform that is where I keep all of my, it's my patient portal for everything.
All of my private sessions and whatnot are very confidential. I follow all of the different HIPAA requirements and things like that. And you're welcome to go there and you can book a session with me and it will be completely confidential. Anything that I do with my clients, I always do a very large post-client meeting summary where I list all of the resources, everything that we talked about, goals for the next time. And then I put that both in the patient's portal as well as sending it to them. So they can find me there.
They can also find me on Patreon where I'm going to be hosting a once a month little kind of Q&A session through Zoom so that if people do want, it's kind of like open office hours. But if there's something very specific and intimate that they want to discuss with me and their partner or just them on their own trying to get a handle in the community, they can always book a private session with me as well. Ooh, I like that. That's pretty cool. That's fabulous. Yeah. I like the idea of the list of things to do because I'm a list person as well.
And I love being able to go into Patreon during open office hours because things come up, right? And that would be awesome would be awesome oh that's really cool i like that option that you provide for everybody thank you very much uh dr k for being on our show we appreciate all of your valuable insights into this new and exciting world of the ds dynamic uh hopefully our listeners can glean something from it and benefit in their, their swinging life.
And maybe, maybe swing over to the other side and try some, some new things in the bedroom, um, either with just their partner or with new partners. Thank you so much for having me as always. And, uh, yeah, anytime you want me back, I'm happy to swing on over to your side. Yeah, maybe we'll come up with some add-on classes, some additional content. We can think of some, maybe some more specific stuff that we can get into. That'd be fun. Thank you. Thank you again.
Oh, one last thing before you go if this episode helped you in any way the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving a rating and review it takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they're searching for relationship education. And we've made it easy. Visit swingeruniversity.com forward slash review. All the instructions are there. Thank you for being part of this community. We'll see you again soon.
