Want to send us a message? Swinger University gets interviewed by the Strictly Anonymous Podcast. Come listen in as we talk about how we got started, how we like to play, and some of the fun things we have going on in our swinging lifestyle. It was a lot of fun being on the other side of the microphone.Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/fJW1cpp9GCY Support the showWant More?👀 Watch on YouTube: YouTube ShowFull video versions and interactive live episodes!Bonus episodes, exclusive content, and 🌶️Extras: https://www.patreon.com/SwingerUniversity 🛳️🎉Looking for lifestyle events in your area? T4P is the go-to directory for clubs, parties, and resort events. Browse now at Ticket4Play.com Custom SU T-shirts and gear: Our Amazon StoreSwingerLinks.com - live schedule, special offers*, and our 🌶️links!Our Website - Leave us a message, articles, and sexy products3 Ways to get your question on our show:RECORD it on our website at: https://swingeruniversity.com/contact/EMAIL a recorded voice note to: [email protected]: (916) 538-0482 and leave a voicemail.* We get a commission if you decide to purchase through our links, at no cost to you.
Transcript
We have to talk about something we've been genuinely excited about for months, and our patrons actually got a preview of this already. Jamaica! Yes, we are going back, and actually, we have a great offer for you guys. Yeah, it's Swingcation. It's October 11th through the 18th at Hedonism 2. And if you don't know what Swingcation is, it's pretty easy. Swinger plus kink plus vacation. It's a hosted group with real structure, workshops, lectures, real conversations with experts who are passionate about bringing and bridging that gap between the swinger world and the kink world.
And we're not just going as attendees. we're going as featured presenters, which is exciting. We'll be leading sessions. So if you come, we actually get to hang out with you. Which brings up something we should mention. When you use our code, yes, we got a code, you're not just getting a discount, you're getting the signature swing experience, which means $100 off per person, up to $200 per room, but it also means that we make time for you. An exclusive breakfast, lunch, cocktail hour, or one-hour and one time with us directly, plus more surprise benefits.
Here's something that's really unique. You could actually contribute by hosting a discussion or running a Skillshare. I know it's scary, but if you have something that you want to contribute, that's a big part of why this event is so special. Everyone there has something to bring to the table. All right, details. If you book before April 25th, you save $400. Plus, they gave us that special code that gets you an additional $200, and the special code is SWINGERU-VIP. So book through TicketForPlay.com forward slash Swinkie. That's T-I-C-K-E-T, the number four, play.com forward slash S-W-I-N-K-Y.
And use our code at checkout. And you guys, if you have any questions about the event, the resort, or what to expect, just reach out. I mean, we're here for you. We're happy to help. So once again, ticketforplay.com forward slash Swinky, the code SwingerU-VIP. We really want to see you there. You're listening to Swinger university with ed and phoebe offering you the naked facts about swinging here are your hosts ed and phoebe hi ed and phoebe welcome to the strictly anonymous podcast You guys are from a podcast called Swinger University. Yes, yes. I have to costume something.
I, you know, my Instagram, I feel like I used your logo once as a picture. And what I wanted to know, I went back looking. I'm like, oh yeah, I did. I wanted to know is that, did you guys get that logo made? Cause A is good. And B, it does kind of look like TV. Is that like your own creation? Someone made that for you guys? Yeah. I'm, I'm actually a graphic designer. Um, I've worked in the software industry for many years, but yeah, traditionally an art background. So you made your logo. I like it. I'm going to use it for your episode.
It's great, but you but you guys have a podcast what's interesting about you guys we're going to get your whole backstory because you guys met and were dating then you started swinging you got married you eventually recently a couple years ago started a podcast about swinger swinging and swingers and you were anonymous like i was but recently you out, which I feel like is such a great thing. I know that there's a backstory to that. So why don't we start off you giving your little shout outs to your podcast, whatever else you have, and then we'll get your story.
And then you can give your shout outs at the end. And I will include all the links, all your stuff in my description. Perfect. You have a YouTube channel. What's your deal? Yeah. Ed, do you want to go? Sure. Yeah. I'll, I'll rip through some of this stuff. So we, um, we started our podcast in May of 2019 and we'll get into some of the details about why we started it and whatnot, but, um, we've been pushing our content up to our podcast for a number of years. And then just this October, we decided to show our faces on YouTube.
And so we have a YouTube channel now, and we're really stepping up production on the YouTube platform to make ourselves a little bit more approachable. I think that was one of the big things with our faces. In addition to becoming more visible, we're also doing OnlyFans accounts now too, which has been exciting and intimidating and a whole bunch of other stuff that comes with that. Right. Right. Oh, okay. Well, we'll get into that.
It's going to be a part of your journey and your story yeah eventually right it comes up that you do the only thing but let's go back to like when you guys first met now are we talking 30 years ago and you've been together that long are we talking that maybe you guys met after you had other marriages i mean because i know that you did it you started swinging when you were dating, correct? Correct. Yeah. Both been married, long-term relationships. I was, this is my third marriage.
I was in a sexless marriage right before this marriage to Ed, and I decided that's never going to happen again, And I wanted better sexual experiences. So I started dating and fucking around and having a great time. You know, I was in my 40s and free. And so I started having some amazing experiences in my 40s.
And I met Ed and we started dating and I thought, wow, this guy really is, I don't know, know I really like this one but I didn't want to give up some of that sexual freedom so he started listening to a podcast called sex is fun and there was a podcast on swinging and so he talked to me about it and I said oh you know I've actually thought about that his eyebrow goes up and he's he's like oh really so that started the conversation and then what happened from that I'm a researcher so I I decided well I need to know more about this like let's get into this this sounds interesting and so I consumed my days just listening to podcasts at work on the way home, on the way to work, just trying to gather as much information as possible.
And how long were you guys dating at this point? Do you remember? Like, was it very early on? Was it a year into the relationship? No, it was pretty early.
So we'd started dating in, I want to february of uh 2012 and we started swinging probably six months i almost it's got to be six months it was within the first year that we were dating yeah terrifying right terrifying yeah but i think there's a better way to go i think it's a lot harder to pull out a card like that uh when you've been with someone for a long time if it's like a secret desire or something whereas if you just when you're starting out a relationship i mean it doesn't be on the first date but i think you know early on is a little bit easier in a weird way you would think it's the opposite but because you know you don't know each other so you might as well put on the table now then if you pull something out after 10 years someone might look at you like who the fuck are you you know I've been with you for 10 years I never knew that you wanted to be a swinger blah so I you know I think that there's definite pros to bringing it up earlier rather than later at least being open about what you're into especially I'm assuming maybe it's because you came from that place of like, no sex.
What about you, Ed? Had you ever done anything that wasn't vanilla before? Well, not really. And, and ironically, I didn't lose my virginity until I was in my 20s. So I got into college. second how old 21 or 27 uh oh early 20s so i was probably 19 or 20 um when i lost my virginity so but i went all through high school with dating but no sex um not me i was a slut i didn't even have a blowjob until college. Really? Yeah. You got laid before you got a blowjob? Well, I remember my first sexual experience in college was a blowjob and it was in the dorms.
And you know, the phrase, there's no such thing as a bad blowjob. It wasn't the best blowjob. It was pretty bad, but it was my first experience. So I enjoyed it. Right. That's hilarious. Yeah. So you were very vanilla too. And now Phoebe said she threw in there. I don't know if people heard of that. She was always slutty. And I assume because I was in my 40s at one time that, you know, Phoebe, when you get out of that sexist marriage and you're in your 40s, women are the horniest. Right. So didn't you feel like your sex drive went out there? So out the window or like it just ramped up.
And so here you are newly single. You had no sex and now you're hornier than you've ever been. And, you know, so when you met Ed, you said when he brought it up that you had been thinking about it. Was that something that you had wanted to do previously? Well, yes. Prior to Ed, in between my marriages, I had been dating a man that was 30 years older than me. And I thought, well, God, you know, he grew up in that time when swinging was really popular.
So I knew about swinging, but I knew it in the, like the movie sense, you know, the keys in the bowl, everyone just shows up at the house and you have this massive orgy, which always sounded really great to me, which is not how it goes down, but I would love it. And I thought I brought it up to him thinking, oh, he's going to be all in. And he wasn't. And I was so disappointed. So I kind of just had this, you know, this on the back burner. And when Ed brought it up, I was like, ooh, this might be my opportunity. Yeah. And then you realize, oh, this is why I like this guy.
He was the real right one. He really was the right one. So what, how did your first experience go? And did you, let me ask you this real quick.
Like, did you have, like, did you do a lot of talking about it beforehand and have any kinds of rules or boundaries set in place before you went to that first swingers party or club oh yes yes we talked about it a lot and we had some rules i think we may have even had the no kissing rule in the beginning because it felt too intimate to me yeah yeah our rules were fairly basic because we didn't know what we didn't know at the time and even though we've been listening to a ton of podcasts, we were in that analysis paralysis phase where we had so much information swimming around in our heads that the reality of what it was going to be like just seemed so intangible.
There was no way we were going to connect those things. And finally, we just decided to pull the trigger and go to an event. But we were like, okay, for this event, we're just watching. We're just going to watch. We're going to go observe. It's like, you know, going to a performance. We're going to see the theater. We're going to see what happens and then we'll process it. So we did. And we ended up at a local party. They used to run them in the back of Craigslist. They don't do that anymore.
We were doing our research on you and read about or listened to you going through Craigslist and kind of getting people to come in. And we were like, gosh, that's a great idea if only they hadn't shut that down so it was the best i i i cast my show for years thank god when it went down i was up and running enough that people were just emailing me and i don't have to go looking anymore but you'd primed the first couple of years i worked fucking craigslist so bad that i had like the app and And I had everything, and I had to change my IP address. I was like, I went out and found people.
Craig, look.
i worked fucking craigslist so bad that i had like the app and i had everything and i have to change my ip address you know i was like yeah i went out and found people craigslist was great back in the day so you found your first party there yeah found our first party on craigslist and it was interesting it was a party called the share your wife party so we were a little intimidated by that title we were like oh god this is going to be this could be a total disaster um we have no idea what's actually going to happen so we showed up and we kind of stood in the corner for probably the first half hour 20 minutes and we we met another couple there who seemed safe so we huddled together and kind of commiserated and introduced ourselves They'd been swinging a while ago and had kind of been out of it for a while.
So they kind of gave us a little bit of their backstory. And to describe the room, basically, it was like a junior high dance, but with really bad porn playing on the TV. Everybody was kind of just sitting around. It was dark. It was weird, very awkward. Nobody was engaging with each other. And then all of a sudden, somebody burst through the front door. Oh, and it was like 20 bucks to get in. So it was like super easy to get in. And there were a lot of single males.
So all of a sudden, door bursts open couple comes in and the woman basically just starts stripping her clothes off and going upstairs to the loft we knew at that point we're like oh we think the party's gonna get started so we're like let's follow them we get up there she's naked she's on the they're having sex. There's a whole ring of guys around the bed. They're all jerking off. There's an older woman who's, oh, probably in her 70s, easily in her 70s. She was kind of like a hot wife situation.
So her husband was in the background watching and college guy after college guy, after military guy was lining up and having sex with grandma. So wait, so this was like a guilt gang bang. It was the 70 year old woman was the one that was like, yes, girl. Well, no, there was a second girl.
So there was like a threesome on the bed and grandma and they were, was having fun we were wow riveted just fascinated watching this whole thing the sounds the smells like you could smell sex um and and we were really close to everybody right because almost everybody in the party was piled around the bed watching and we eventually eventually got kind of crammed into a corner. And there's a leg kind of like moving right in front of us, you know, kind of doggy style or on her back. And the leg was just flying around. And Phoebe was terrified that we were just going to get sucked onto the bed.
And so we were like holding each other, watching all this like super excited but also very nervous all at the same time so like emotions adrenaline everything was going like all at once we literally sat in the car afterwards for about 20 minutes in silence just trying to process everything that happened oh my god i thought maybe you were gonna say you went into the car then you just like couldn't keep your hands on each other had sex i mean were you super charged up and horny from it like or was it almost too much information we were and and i think we we went home and had sex we didn't have sex in the car but yeah a little bit of both, like really horny from from having seen all of this stuff, but also like just overwhelmed.
Yeah, I've never seen live sex other than porn. And the porn I've seen is was was gross or not interesting. And this was just I couldn't believe my eyes it was phenomenal I was instantly turned on by it and needed more okay can we talk about October for a second oh my god yeah I've been waiting for this we were invited to be guest speakers for two engagements on a six-star crystal cruise ship with 310 lifestyle couples. And it sails from Montreal to Boston during the peak foliage season. I'm super excited. And honestly, I'm really nervous.
Yeah, it's kind of a version of like a swinger TED talk that we're gonna have to do oh my god i know and more importantly if you know the brand it's llv luxury lifestyle vacations you may have seen them and they're sexy playmakers with their fun red hats this ship the crystal symphony is classy. Butler service for every single room, Michelin rated restaurants, full spa, clothing optional, sensual playrooms, like everything, theme nights and international DJ. So it's luxury and nudity? Oh man, this is going to be great. The bottom line is we want you there with us. It's 310 couples.
And like all their vacations, they book up fast. They really do. Their vacations are extremely popular. So please come with us.
And in order to find it, all you have to do is go to our swingerlinks.com and look for the llv sensual voyage we hope you'll join us and then did you continue to go to that party or did you start going to clubs or both no we that was the last first and last of those parties that we went to the next one we went to was from a local venue um allures and they had a glow party and that was our probably our first actual sexual contact with other couples and one of the kind of the high bars that got set for many years to come in terms of experiences, just an amazing night.
So Phoebe was on her period. We knew not much was going to happen because of that. And nobody was playing in the playroom. So we, and this was kind of our MO for many years where we would kind of just kick the party off. So we'd go in, we're a little bit of exhibitionists. Just a little bit. I mean, that's why we do a podcast in some reasons. Yeah. That's funny that you became that person right out of the get-go, the people that start the party. Yeah.
And I think it was mostly because we didn't find a lot of people we were attracted to in the lifestyle at that time um interesting okay the demographic was much older than us and we hadn't we hadn't gotten comfortable playing kind of outside of our our particular group and you spend the money and you take the time to get ready i mean this took hours you know to put myself you get there and I'm like, I want to have a good time. Right. So, you know, I know I'm going to have a good time. Yeah. It's a sex party. Let's see some sex. So we got on the bed. We were playing.
Next thing you know, there's another woman who wants to play with Phoebe's breasts. Then there's a couple across the room that's given us the eyes and the come hither fingers. All of a sudden we, we have this realization that there's eight couples and we're all doing like oral sex around in this circle all at the same time. It was amazing. And, and like almost no verbal communication. It was all kind of eye contact and nonverbal, um, consent. Amazing. Just absolutely an amazing experience. Yeah.
And was that all like with each other, just within like you with her or were you guys all swapping and stuff like that? We swapped, I think, with two other couples. It wasn't, you know, everybody didn't swap with everybody else. Of course, but there was you guys. This was your first time, though, that you guys were getting down with other people besides each other. Yeah. It was that puppy pile situation on the bed, which I really, really love. Yeah. The woman that we were interacting with, we were mostly interested in her. She was super cute.
Our nickname for her was Marianne for many years because she was kind of like Marianne from Gilligan's Island. Oh, yeah. Just super cute. Never saw them again. I know.
It's one of those unfortunate things that happens in swinging where you meet a couple once and you probably never see them again i know um it's one of those unfortunate things that happens in swinging where you meet a couple once and you probably never see them again it's true then this now wait now phoebe were you down to get with women were at like what do you or like how do you label your yourself sexually are you into women phoebe and what about you? Are you open? Are you just like strictly with women yourself? I was straight at that time. That's how I labeled myself.
And I found a lot of frustration in the lifestyle with all the definitions of it being bi. buy from the waist up, selectively buy. I mean, the list goes on and on. And at one point in our journey, I was having a sexual identity crisis because I found like I had to reassess where I was with my sexuality and I didn't want to. And Ed kept saying, well, you love kissing women and you like touching them, you must be bi. And I'm like, I'm not bi. And I didn't want the label. And it took several years to just go, okay, fine, whatever. What the fuck? I'm bi.
And really, honestly, it took that one person telling me, this was a woman. She goes, well, when you're kissing other men and you're with other men i mean or you know looking at other men you don't like all men do you and i go no she's like well it's no different with women just because you like one woman doesn't mean you're you like all women and just because you're you want to label yourself by doesn't mean you love all women and want to have sex with all women. It's the same thing with men as with women. And it took some of the pressure off because I didn't understand that, right?
And so I just started just experimenting, mostly with kissing and soft swap. And gosh, we are, what, 11 years into the journey now? and i think I've had my third oral experience of going down on a woman in the last, this was, what, two months ago? Yeah. Was the best. I mean, hugely. Really? After all this time? Yes. Because, you know, I'm awkward. You know, I know how to handle a penis.
i know what to do with a penis right i don't know what to do with a vagina i don't know what did you i don't know what a woman likes 11 years it was just so recently that you were like oh i like this it's right here i'm gonna do it and i fucking love it and all this time you've been passing it up for the past 11 years. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. A lot of kissing and breast play and kind of, you know, fondling and touching. Women are very soft, and it's very nice to touch them, but yeah, the oral thing for Phoebe's been pretty recent.
Yeah, and it's mostly just me feeling awkward and not knowing what to do and feeling you know a little self-conscious i mean if i had i've had women go down on me and it was amazing so i was like wow women are great and horrible so so because i had had that first i thought oh god i can't i can't do that i set the bar too high yeah i thought well how am i supposed to do that now i have to do that right so intimidating yeah yeah That's it. I thought, oh, God, I can't do that. Set the bar too high. Yeah. I thought, well, how am I supposed to do that? Now I have to do that, right?
Right, intimidating, yeah. Yeah. So, recently, I just jumped in, and it was awesome. I actually made this woman come. Her legs clamped around my head, batted my ears, and I felt her shudder. And the power in that moment of giving someone pleasure was the greatest high ever. It was phenomenal. Yeah, that's interesting. Because, I mean, you know, how many times have you done that to somebody else? It's like you never, as a woman, experienced that, you know, as the other person. And you did. That's interesting.
Yeah, that was, that that was that was a highlight of 2022 but wait what about you ed because i know that there is a lot of stigma attached to guy on guy action even in the swinger community which would you you would think if any place people would be super open it's there right i hear from a lot of guys that are into guys in that world but you just really can't cough to it uh you know where do you stand on that yeah so it's interesting when we first got into the lifestyle um there was that rule it was an it was an unwritten rule you never put it on your profile you didn't talk about it um but if you happen to be in the right situation with the right people, you could kind of let that freak flag fly and people were into it.
So, um, we'd been to a house party where the host had let it out that he was by and there was another attendee at his party and there were there was two guys going going at it um giving each other oral and phoebe was fascinated um i loved it it was it was very interesting to watch that dynamic um and to see how that played out um and and i'll i'll there. I identify as straight. So I've, I've had some experiences with men, but it was very casual and not, and I wouldn't even qualify him as sexual, but I definitely can appreciate an attractive man.
Um, it helps me for shopping for couples with, with Phoebe and I for sure. Um, cause I know what she likes and, and I can, you know, kind of weed the people out that I know she's probably not going to be attracted to but what we've noticed recently that that party and more and more people are actually starting to put it in their profiles so we're seeing it on most of the swinger dating sites where they actually put it in their profile that they're by. And we were on the Bliss Cruise this last November. We were in one of the, we were in the big playroom in the Solarium.
And there were two guys, big puppy pile of people, two guys performing oral sex on each other right there in the playroom.
Never seen that before in such a public and it was great like when we walked by we were like good for them that's awesome yeah right on why not i think it has do you think it has to do with the demographics of you know the people because you have this the younger generation now coming into the world and i feel like they're more open and And the stigma is, sort of is going to die out when you know people a certain age range of people just die off you know because i feel like it's just an outdated kind of a thing yes yeah and we've seen that the younger generation they're out they don't care they they're all about expressing who they are And even in media with the body images, you know, you've got Victoria's Secret and Rihanna with our Savage X line and Athleta all showing different body types and that self-love of who you are in that moment and where you're at.
And so people are really starting to just come into their their own their confidence and love, love who they are and where they're at and feel free to express that. Yeah. And I think that you're seeing it in your world, too, that it's getting more open as well. Yeah, definitely. And I think it's it's not only the younger generation, too, but because of the portrayals of sexuality, because they're becoming more open when you have shows on television that are basically going, look, gay people aren't any different than than the rest of us. Why is there such a stigma about this?
It's opened doors, I think, for a lot of people to be comfortable with whatever their sexuality is and say, you know what? You know, I like having sex, period. End of story. Like, I don't necessarily care what gender the person is that I'm having sex with. Right, exactly. Yes, it's definitely helpful. I mean, listen, I have a child, a young son, and we watch TV shows.
I watch one, you know, for him and i'm like my son's not gonna eat if he's straight he's not gonna feel like the norm he's gonna be like how do i come out and tell him what i'm straight because every show we watch it's only guys dating guys girls dating girls you know i mean it's so different yeah exactly it's so different uh than when we grew up and i think that that's great but so now you guys start now do you guys were you open to full swapping were you really interested in seeing her with other men in tv were you interested in seeing him with other women i mean what were your guys take on that part of things yeah that's that's kind of how the journey started yeah ed was way more comfortable watching me with other people than i was watching him yes I don watching him.
Yes. That took a while for me to get comfortable watching him have sex with someone. So I would primarily just focus on my experience. Even though we played side by side on the same bed, I primarily focused on my experience, and I didn't really look over. I would touch, you know, the other woman, and, you know, Ed would reassure me. But visually, I had a really hard time, you know. Looking over. Yeah. It was, you know, it's that old programming that it's not okay, right? Because I grew up, I went to Catholic school.
So, you know, in a household where there's no hugging, no physical expression of love, sex was done in the dark, you didn't talk about it.
So, I mean, to go from that to sharing your partner was like, I still had old programming that was really locked in there that said that's that's not okay so only until gosh I don't know about four five years in did I start to really enjoy that I actually I started to get okay with it but until about the last two years I actually really like it and i've been experimenting with just sitting back and just watching just watching it and you know i love that you bring that up because i have to tell you what i love about youtube for my show and i'm sure you get this too is that you get the comments and you get the conversations going over there and so i love youtube for that but i have to tell you that i have a lot of quote unquote hot wives or you know the couples where they're open and the girl gets to fuck other guys but she's not into the guy being with other women you know they're not as far along in their journey maybe as you guys maybe 10 years they will be okay but it's more so i hear that the guys are okay and the women aren't and the the comments are always like, that's fucked up and not fair.
And, you know, but for you guys, what's interesting is that you didn't look and you weren't into it, but you allowed it to happen. You were okay with that, which is something different that I've heard. You know, I, I hear all kinds of stories. This is why I love talking. I could talk to a hundred swingers and every story is going to be a little bit different. So you're unique, Phoebe, in that you didn't want to see it because you felt like it might bother you, but you didn't hold him back. No. Yeah. No.
We had a conversation very early on when she was uncomfortable and I explained, I was like, look, I'm okay if you're going to play and I'm just going to watch for a little while. But at some point, I'm going to want some candy too, because I can't just watch forever. So I was going to give her a little bit of runway to have some fun and kind of get warmed up to the whole idea. I grew up in a completely different household where sexuality was open. My parents walked around naked. We went to nude beaches.
Um, I, I remember being a kid and going to like hot tub parties with friends and everybody was naked. Like nobody bothered with, with swimsuits. It was just normal. My, my dad was an artist and, um, Oh, okay. Well, maybe your parents were swingers too. You know, that thought has occurred to us so many times and it's a lot of speculation, um, on, on our part, um, could have been, they were both, he was in the military back in the seventies. So it's quite possible. So I was always really comfortable watching Phoebe because I love watching her have orgasms.
I don't necessarily have to be providing them. She could be masturbating. She could be with another guy or a woman or two or three other people. It was great for me because I just enjoyed watching her have a good time. And we'd started off very much soft swap. Eventually, I think we finally figured out, you know, what is this whole like full swap soft swap barrier thing? Like, why do we have this artificial wall? You got a cock in your mouth. What's the real difference there?
And we had kind of an epiphany oneany one day we were like you know what let's try it if we don't like full swap we can always go back and we met a nice couple we had a great time with them and now we're we're open to any experience we like soft swap we like full swap just watching for us the experience is always so different with every couple that it doesn't have to be just like straight to penetrative sex. So we're one of, I think one of the few couples in the lifestyle that are open to everything.
A lot of people we see in their profiles, they're like, look, if you're not DTF, just keep going. Like we're, we're not soft swap. We're, we're past past all that. Those were training wheels days. And we're like, it's still fun to watch. This is still sex. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I hear from those couples. I mean, a lot of times people are very specific.
One thing I do always hear, and it sounds like you guys are the the same is that people do go in with a lot of rules and regulations and boundaries and they quickly sometimes very quickly fall to the wayside like you guys said you had that kissing rule but did that fly out the window that's always one of the first to go for people yeah oh yeah yeah it did it it went out the window that one was actually a little more challenging for me. I was a little, I know it sounds strange saying this, but it was less intimate to give someone a blowjob than to kiss them. Something about the face.
Oh, no, I think any woman understands that. Yeah. Something about the face and the intimacy.
And honestly, that's where it all starts all that's where the magic starts to happen and we learned very early on that that you know if you're if you're not a good kisser you don't know how to kiss or you don't know how to follow someone's lead while you're kissing like in dancing then it then you're not going to be able to follow instructions well in bed right and i've i've had that experience time and time again if you if you can't take directions and you you know while we're kissing or if i'm giving you you know little bits of information and you don't follow that we're not going to have sex because it's just not going to go well yeah we we often consider kissing is kind of an audition yeah and so when we're flirting with a couple and kind of out on the dance floor if there's a little bit of kissing and it's really bad we're like wow it's so nice meeting you next and we will you know very quickly transition to something else yeah so now kissing is very important it is very important It is.
And, you know, very quickly transition to something else. So now keeping is very important. It is very important. It is. And, you know, our rules would change sometimes mid play where we would literally were on the bed with another couple. And, you know, we all kind of look at each other and we start to have a conversation. We go, you know, well, we didn't, you know, we didn't start this evening, you know, expecting we would do, you know, X or Y, whatever the rule was, you know, that we were going to break.
And Ed and I would look at each other and we look at the other couple and we're like, well, yeah, let's experiment. Let's do this. But if I feel nervous, I'll let you know when we need to stop. And I just need to kind of take a breath to kind of process a little bit of what's going on. But I'm fine. I'll just let you know. And so being able to have that open and honest conversation with a couple was challenging but necessary in order to get through it. And it's nice.
I mean, honestly, the fear was people were just going to be rude and reject you, you know, when you're feeling vulnerable in bed with them, but they're not. Swingers are the nicest people. Honestly, they really are. And we've found that the couple that you're having that conversation with in the playroom or in the hotel room or wherever it is that you're having your experience. if you start that dialogue and say, look, I may pull the ripcord because I feel uncomfortable, they go, oh, good, because I want that option too.
And in a sense, you've opened up that ability for people to be honest with you and not feel like they got ambushed or they're stuck in a situation they have to basically take one for the team right right which is terrible you don't want to do that we've all done it but try not to do that very often right well you i mean well what about you then so when he said to you like listen you know you're gonna start be playing with guys and that's cool with me. And I know that you don't really want me to be with other women, but eventually I'm going to want to.
I mean, you know, how did how did you feel about that? And then what was that first experience like where you were like, OK, like now's the time? I mean, how did you make that transition? Oh, gosh, I'm trying to to remember i think it was just experimenting with that other couple i think i don't know if we actually we we didn't actually do the hot wife scenario in the beginning we always played together right So initially, that's what I wanted. And even though he said it was okay, I felt guilty not allowing him to have that pleasure at the same time. I felt like I was holding him back.
So even though he was giving me that gift to go forward, I couldn't, I couldn't do it because I wanted to give that gift to him just as bad. So we didn't move in that direction. We needed more time to talk it through. I needed more time to kind of process my emotions and thoughts about that. And then when we were ready to go in as a couple, that's when we did and had that first soft swap experience with a couple on a, on a bed.
And now so many years later, you're not only okay with it, but turned on by it yes yes it's very sexy now i see it now you like to watch like a little cuck queen i've had some cuck queens on my show and i'm like that was like the first time i started to hear about that you know i mean it's like a new kind of term but uh and then you know once one person calls and i'll get like 20 other people and i'm like oh a lot of women do enjoy that so maybe some of them like i was like thinking a lot of times people are going to listen and be like oh maybe i'm that way and i like that too i mean look you didn't even know that about yourself right you figured it out as you went along yeah yeah and you and you you yeah i guess it was just a progression honestly um and and as you had as i have had multiple experiences i don't always need to have a cock i don't always need to be you know in the puppy pile it's it's nice to i discovered to just sit back and watch because you get to see so much more we know when you're in the mix there's a lot going on and it's a little like add you're trying to what's my focus on your experience but then you're like visually distracted over here and visually distracted over there which is great but it's a bit challenging to manage all of that visual stimulus and i'm highly stimulated by you know my I'm very visual by nature.
So because going to a mall is like terror for me, I get so overwhelmed. There's just I have to look at everything. I like, you know, all the colors, all the people, all this. I just want to take it all in. So now having to sit back, you know, wanting to sit back and in is really nice and pleasurable. And some of this came about because of situations where maybe you weren't interested in anybody in the room. Yeah. And you were like, well, you know what? At least I'll get the silver lining. I'll get something out of this. I can observe and I can watch other people have fun.
And I remember one of the first experiences that we'd had like this, uh, the woman that I was playing with was, she was very into me. We've, we've played with them before and it's actually a little upsetting for her husband because of how much fun we have.
But she, um, she and I were on the bed and going at it and we realized like mid whatever that everybody in the room was watching the two of us on the bed it was it was fantastic like we were so in the moment we didn't even pay attention and of course i kept checking in with phoebe to make sure she was okay she's like oh yeah have fun this is great and she was just kicking back watching the whole thing it was it was fabulous it was a great night Thank you.
in with phoebe to make sure she was okay she's like oh yeah have fun this is great and she was just kicking back watching the whole thing it was it was fabulous it was a great night here's why we sail on virgin it's adults only no kids screaming at breakfast no family buffet lines just, just champagne at noon, late night pool parties, and people who actually want to be there. The vibe? Think boutique hotel that happens to float. Tattoo parlors, drag brunch, restaurants you'd actually pay for on land.
Plus, when you're looking to connect with other couples who know how to have fun let's just say virgin attracts a very specific type of adventurous no wonder bread cruisers here just your people and now so do you guys you're like going to you go to swingers clubs you mentioned parties cruises are you strictly in the lifestyle do you guys, you're like going to, you go to swingers clubs, you mentioned parties, cruises, are you strictly in the lifestyle? Do you have, do you, are you also on apps like meeting couples outside of the clubs and stuff? Yeah, we we we are on SLS and Cassidy.
Those are big in our area. Right.
And we use those mostly just for finding out where the house parties are in the clubs because we really like meeting people in person we we have done those dates you know dinner dates or coffee dates whatever but um they in the past they haven't you know really panned out it's kind of hit and miss it is hit and miss so you know when you're at a party there's usually some someone for everybody right and and it's it's connecting it's it's really the networking thing it's like sales you know you you there may not be anybody there you want to play with but you met another couple that also has a house party somewhere else and then you get on their list right and now And now you've got another option.
So it's all about the networking face-to-face. And we're also really in favor of meeting people face-to-face because profiles are so one-dimensional. I know. Not everybody can write well.
Their feelings and their personality hasn't always come through in their profile the photographs are bad most people are not good photographers most of the time there's not even a picture of the husband in profiles which is one of our big pet peeves and one of the things we talk about all the time in our podcast, even for normal vanilla people, like dating profiles, people are terrible at marketing themselves. So we got really good at crafting our profile and really making it appealing to people.
But we also realized that most people didn't do such a good job with marketing themselves and talking to them face to face and watching their emotions and their expressions and hearing their humor and engaging with them worlds apart. Makes them more attractive. Yes.
They're just people that you see a picture and you're like, eh, they don't really me but you meet him in person you're like wow that person really is doing stuff for me i need to like yeah we need to get together yeah i always look at people on tv that way i'm like i try to think of the backwards like you know this person like oh he's like he's like hot to me but i bet you if he was on an app and he there was just a flat picture of him, I would have never chosen because you don't get anything from a picture. I totally agree with you guys.
Let's talk about your journey into the whole podcast world, because and also how you went from being anonymous to really coming out. I mean, that's like a very big decision. You know, why, first of all, did you start it? You did it when in 2019, you said you started it? Yeah, 2019. We got really frustrated with, well, you talk about it and you're going to. Yeah. So we started listening to podcasts, right? So we were steeped. I mean, we listened to hours and hours and hours of all of the big podcasts that were out at the time.
And what we experienced was one, there was a lot of conversation and a lot of the typical podcast stuff where people don't get to the content until way too late into the podcast, which was frustrating for Phoebe in particular because, you know, if a TV show is boring and doesn't catch her attention, she's changed the channel. She's on to the next thing. She did the same thing with the podcast. I have no patience. So what we were also finding, though, was a lot of the podcasts didn't help people get started. So they didn't have like, hey, this is how you start. This is how you progress.
These are the specific situations that you're going to get into as a swinger and how you navigate those specific things. In a sense, what we wanted to do was almost a masterclass in getting started in swinging. So less about getting to know who we are and more about this is how you succeed in the lifestyle. This is how you get started. This is how you meet people. These are some tips and tricks, very practical, hands-on, concise. Here's some facts. This is how you do it. And we liked that.
And we know that's not everybody's cup of tea, but we think it's very valuable to be able to go, hey, I can look up on Swinger University a specific topic, go right there and learn about that so that I can get through that first event. Or I can, you know, I'm struggling with BV.
Or I want to know, like, where do I finally swing or close like where do people do it so we've got episodes that talk to a very specific aspect of swinging in order to get people started in order to get them through that whatever that next hurdle is that they're going through in the lifestyle but yeah no i think that's smart because people are always emailing me looking for that kind of information and i'm kind of like listening to my show or you know but i love when i do have guests on that do that because i think that there are a lot of people out there looking for that information and you know listen tv had mentioned early on that when you guys brought up swinging she went and did a deep dive and she was like googling you know i'm like that kind of person too but most people aren't you know so they they want to be boom fed the information they don't want to go spend hours googling about it you know they just want to fucking give me the five best tips you have for swinging you know tell me exactly how to do it and so i think it's great that you offer that for people yeah and that is right in my wheelhouse organizing information That is like with my communication background and a researcher.
I love gathering all that, condensing it down and packaging it so it's easily digestible for people because we all have busy lives. So, I just do it because it's fun for me and I know it will help other people. And so, that was also, you know, what helped us put this podcast forward. And what we've noticed, because you'd asked about why we finally came out, and it was kind of twofold for us. One, it was marketing. It helped us to be presentable.
And seeing a face and associating a face with the voice people could connect with us better and we also realized that we're trying to de-stigmatize sex and swinging and make it right not taboo and not naughty and dirty i mean maybe a little naughty and maybe a little dirty sometimes but it it's not something to be ashamed of. And yet here we were being anonymous and not showing our faces. And we struggled for probably a year. So we were on a cruise and we talked to some longtime old school podcasters, Penn and Page from Swinger Diaries, and we had dinner with them. It was a great conversation.
And they asked, just out of curiosity why aren't you out what was the decision for you and we were like well one we're kind of afraid of what would happen with our our outside lives right our our normal lives is it going to affect our jobs is it going to affect our jobs? Is it going to affect our families? And for the next year, we kind of stewed on it and it processed and we thought about it and we talked about it, kind of like everything that we do. We do a lot of thinking and talking and communication with each other in order to get through stuff.
And we finally said, you know what, my parents won't care. Your mom won't be in any of the circles, you know, six degrees of anything to find out. So probably wouldn't find out. Although if she did, it would be terrible for her. Devastating. Right. The old school Catholic would kick in and we're going to hell. But my kids are all grown up. We have jobs that don't have that in the policy where, you know, we would get fired. And that was one thing I looked up right away. I was like, you have a whole ethics clause. Yeah. And so we finally just said, you know what, what, why not? Let's do it.
Let's come out. We don't think our lives are going to implode because of this. And so far they haven't, but we also haven't gotten really big yet. So who knows? Yeah. The implosion may come. But so far it's been really positive for us. And when we were on the swinger cruise and when we've been at events and we've, you know, we've worn our T-shirts and stuff to kind of market the podcast and to get people to approach us. Because we like meeting people. Like we want to hear their stories. We want to learn about them just like you. Figure out how they tick. How they do it. Yeah.
What struggles did they go through? Because that helps us to, one to one better understand our perspective but help other people who are struggling with those same things and the response that we've gotten from us coming out has been phenomenal like people will walk up to us and talk to us and they're like we love it it's great appreciate you. Appreciate you guys doing that. And it's been, it's been all positive so far. Hey there, podcast listeners.
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Trust us us this is where the magic happens see you there patrons yeah that's great and then i mean did you have like an audience i mean and it also is a smart way to get people over to your youtube channel right i mean that's just a you know because youtube is visual i mean i'm anonymous on my show so on youtube i'm like how the fuck am i going to do it because my youtube channel is doing good i'm like oh i want to do some videos so i just i don't know if you saw but like on my youtube channel i do like my torso shot i mean it's kind of thirsty and funny and it kind of works but yeah i love it we did notice that yeah yeah but yeah I think that that's great yeah yeah you have to have something visual something that people can connect to yeah we we'd had a few conversations because I have a graphics background and and I'm really good with software and visual production and doing the video editing and whatnot so I could think of all kinds of different ways to kind of mask the faces and, you know, do the witness protection program, you know, mosaic filters on people.
We were going to do like little animated cartoon heads for a while. And I was like, you know what, all this stuff feels really corny. And, and being a visual person cropping my head off or cropping phoebe's head off as an as an artist and a photographer it really bothered me like it violates all of the the rules for uh composition but for sure yeah yeah i get people like uh your camera is too low i think you positioned it i mean that's not the of people. But every now and then I'll get someone like that. I mean, most people know by now that's my thing. But right.
And because my show is called Strictly Anonymous. I became anonymous by accident. I have to say it was it was only because I thought my show would suck. I didn't even know it was going to be about that. It's like everything happens sort of backwards and it just kind of came together and then it just kind of worked and now it really worked. So I'm always like, you know, there's a price for my faith. I will eventually probably come out because I hope I've become big enough to do it, but at this point, because it really, in a weird way for my show, because what it's about, it's not about me.
It's about the other people anyway, and it is called, you know, it kind of works, but I think it's amazing that you guys were able to do that and that's a part of your journey because you could also help other people with that aspect of things you know as far as their journey of being swingers because here you are like you said trying to normalize it or make it more you know make it acceptable that you were hiding out and now that you come forward. And the fact that you did both and you had that transition, I think it's also really great too, because you could explain it and help other people.
Yeah. We, we think that there was that benefit. Um, and it's funny when you talk about kind of the imposter syndrome and like, uh, this is going to suck. I hope nobody, I hope people watch it, but I hope nobody watches it at the same time. We go through that all the time, um, with our episodes. And I think the first year, uh, we were very critical of everything that we produced and with YouTube, it's been a whole extra layer because we went from, you know, one dimension audio to three dimensions with cameras and lighting and getting our hair done and all that kind of stuff.
So it's been a journey for sure to get comfortable with that and to kind of put ourselves out there in more ways than one. And now do you still have your, you know, like your careers, are they still in place? And has anyone in your vanilla world like found out that this is what you guys do? Or are you still kind of like, even though you're out on your YouTube, you're still kind of not out in your whole life?
yeah we're we're not out in our whole life uh no one from my current job has found out although i have i've had conversations with co-workers where i've probably disclosed a little too much about camera equipment and lighting and microphones because you know i work in an audio visual environment and they started asking questions and there's phoebe in the background because we work in the same office and she's behind me going no call it off call it off so yeah i have definitely strayed to that side now interestingly enough we've both through previous employers run into people in the lifestyle that we worked with, which was hilarious and scary.
And then it turned out to be really sexy and kind of hot, too, at the same time. Yeah. Did you hook up with them? I tried to. We tried to hook up with all of them. Did you?
You didn't get to either get to either no none of them it was one of those things where it was super hot to be like at work and you know typing away and they'd walk by and you give a little wink right like because I know what you know and you know what I know but nothing ever really happened and I think we're both a little disappointed in that because they were they're sexy people and it would be fun and of course now that we don't work there it's it's even less awkward potentially yeah so wait now tell me about your only fans now how did how did you get into that and what do you do over there like what would people find over there sexy fix videos we got into that we were talking with a woman at our local nudist resort who is a chatterbait model and i'm you know here here i here i am like asking a lot of questions like really tell me more about that how does this work yeah for three hours i talked to this woman and i said i i i couldn't believe she made the money that she makes right there and she's like oh she's like i said it i said it's probably too late for me to get into something she's like no there is an endless amount of money out there and she she i go well how do you how do you like dictate you like your whole day must be just you know busy and she goes oh no she goes if i'm taking a shower i just film it if i'm in the hot tub i just you know she said her vacation one of her vacations there at that nudist resort was paid just because she was in the hot tub that morning putting her feet in front of the light in the hot tub and she sold that video and she sold the video and paid for her day there at the resort i'm like get out right so of course that took a year of contemplation and and then she came over and i had to ask her a whole bunch of questions and i wasn't going the route of chowder bait, but I thought, you know, maybe we could do some photos.
It started with foot photos, but now it's way past that. Yeah. Now it's like full on porn and everything. It's great. So that's what people can see if they go there. I mean, you do custom video, stuff like that? Yes. We do mostly stuff that's more story-based that we like to do. We haven't done any custom stuff at this point. We will if we get a request. We haven't gotten any requests yet. We're fledgling OnlyFanners. And I think a lot of it was I've always really enjoyed watching Phoebe, taking pictures of Phoebe, videoing Phoebe. It's hot for me.
And I think kind of in the back of our head, we're like, you know what? We're getting older. Our retirement plan. You know, maybe we just maybe we just make some passive income this way. Like, we'll keep it separate from the podcast. Like, it it's not the podcast that's still free. We're still, you know, pushing that content out. Why? Cause, cause it's helpful and we like to contribute back to the community. But you know, if people want to pay to see our junk, why not? Why not? Like, why not? This is, this would be fun. Plus it's super sexy.
I think it's a part of your brand you know it's like your podcast is your is your podcast but then you you create a whole brand around that and there's everything is an extension but it's like all within that so i think that that's great and i think only fans for a couple like you would be a no-brainer i mean i get i i just did a q a for my picture and they. Someone's like, why don't you do an OnlyFans? Because it doesn't make sense. It doesn't go with my show. I can't have other people on my OnlyFans.
And my show is not about me, but your guys' show is about you guys and swingers and sex, and why not do that? I mean, if I were you guys, I would, because you can make some good money and it is a way to just extend your brand and create more content and get a larger fan base. I think that there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's great. Smart. Yeah. And I think a lot of it too, is it's a different expression of our sexuality. Like we've exposed a couple of times. We're exhibitionists. We like playing in front of other people. We like having sex in front of other people.
There's no bigger audience than the internet. It's like the biggest sex party you've been to. You're starting the party like you were at those small places, but you're doing it online. You've been to tons of people, so your exhibitionist side is getting your full show, right? Yeah. It's sexy for us as a couple, too, to be able to I'll see you next time.
it online and like you said to tons of people so your exhibitionist side is getting your fault though right yeah yeah and it's it's sexy for us as a couple too to be able to take pictures of each other and and honestly i've learned a lot in this process where people about the different kinks where initially i go oh you know i'm just kind of surprised at that i'm surprised somebody likes that and then i start to think about that and i go huh well gosh you know, I'm just kind of surprised at that. I'm surprised somebody likes that.
And then I start to think about that and I go, huh, well, gosh, you know, I mean, there's really something for everybody out there. And if they really like that and that really turns them on, then maybe I could give that to them. I mean, if they really want it and that's their thing, it's not my thing. It know, it's not what turns me on and it doesn't compromise, you know, then you have to think about does it compromise what I want to do, you know, and how I want my body to be shown or what I want to do for money. You always have to assess that.
But if it's okay and fits within that, you go, gosh, you know, yeah, I could provide that to somebody if they're willing to see that and pay for that and that's their that's their kink and sure why not you know it's all about whatever you're into and i'm always surprised what people are into it's kind of fun it's crazy but it's fun oh yeah i just had a girl on i'm airing her on this monday naomi and she like hooked up with this couple and she's like yeah they're into you know corruption kink i'm like what's that but then she's like also you know monster kink i'm like what the fuck does that mean like monster dildos or like real monsters like no like monster like they have like these really high-end costumes i mean it's so fascinating i'm like doesn't matter i've been i have almost 600 episodes and then some.
And I still, it's always amazing to me that I still will hear about new things. You know, it's like, you can't believe it. That's fascinating. And they will pay for it. I mean, I have a lot of girls on who are in the sex work business or they have only bands and they do cater to guys in that way.
And, I mean,'s crazy the kind of request that that could come in that you know you just can't believe the shit that guy will pay for sometimes they'll even pay for giving you money i mean there's this whole thing i was learning about called fin dom right yeah they just want you to take their money like that's what it is i'm like holy shit so I think that's great that you're in that. Now, give out all your shout-outs. So for people that are listening, they want information, newbie couples that want to get into the swinging lifestyle, your podcast will be great for them.
Give that information, and then as well as your YouTube, I'll put links to everything in there. Do you have, like, a Linktree thing that you could send me that has all your links on it? Well, we also have a website. So swingeruniversity.com. Oh, okay.
And on that, you can find all of the different sites and services that offer the podcast, links to our YouTube, links to our OnlyFans, links to our Costa Rica takeover, which we're doing in june's we're actually doing a vacation which and it's through a friend of ours who's a promoter and she's helping us to organize that and set that all up but we still have room okay give some information about the lesson she's saying it's right in the jungle it's in in the jaco area of costa rica it's that this boutique yoga resort. So it's beautiful.
There's, I mean, it is literally like being in the jungle. It's a manicured jungle, but it's gorgeous. Right. And there's 20 rooms and the whole vacation is facilitated around getting people to interact with one another. There's classes every night in the playroom on vlogging or um squirting squirting and then they have the other toys too and what's also included in the vacation are excursions so a lot of the adult resorts you can't leave it's not safe and you wouldn't want to because you spent a lot of money for them. But this resort, you get excursions with it.
So you get outside of the resort, which is other opportunities to meet people and connect with them. And you can be naked anywhere. In the resort, yeah. In the resort. Except for in the dining room, which is pretty typical.
And what's interesting is most of the excursions are together as a group so at other swinger takeovers that we've been to everybody kind of breaks off and scatters and goes and does their own thing you can do that on this particular trip but there are a couple excursions and there are a lot of activities where everybody does it together as a group which is great because you get to meet people and interact with them and see them having fun which is way sexier than seeing them after you're tired after doing atv all day and you're dirty and that's it like that's the end of your day we're all acting through these things together and we get to interact with them, which is awesome.
And we have whiskey tasting. That's my foreplay too, because sometimes, you know, how many times for you, Stevie, as a woman, like that, we meet a guy and don't have any feelings for him. But after you get to know him, you're like, you're like, Oh, now I find him fucking hot, you know, like because you've gotten to know him a little bit. So I think that that's great that you do push for that interaction with people, because I think that maybe some people will find people they're more attracted to maybe that they didn't realize because they're getting to know them outside of the bedroom, too.
Yeah. We're going to do some fun stuff, too, as as podcasters. And of course, there's pool games and some fun activities.
But we're also hoping to make it a little bit educational as well kind of keeping with the spirit of of what our podcast is all about so a lot of times people will be first time or first swinger vacation and they'll come on these kinds of trips and it'll be great for them because we're gonna help we're gonna help bring them on board and come over to the dark side because we have more more fun over here exactly yeah that's great so it's like swinger vacation 101 so if people want information on that they could go to your website swingeruniversity.com yes what is your website again yes swingeruniversity.com your podcast is swinger university your youtube channel swinger university and like i said go to the website i'll put your website all your information as well as your only fans if you want to see more hardcore stuff you can go there that's a little bit more personalized but thanks so much for coming on and sharing your story i'm going to use your uh thumbnail when i'm smoting your instagram is that cool i like it yeah fantastic and i like i try to find good pictures on Google and somehow I found that once and I liked it enough to use it, I stole it from you guys but I like it and thanks so much like I said for coming on, I think I found you because you made a comment right on something, it was a Casey thing and I was like oh why don't you guys come on and tell your story I think that's great and hopefully some of my youtubers like any of my youtube you know i have a large audience on youtube you should go check you guys out fantastic because they like that contest but thank you guys so much for uh calling in i'm sure you'll get tons of people going to listen to your podcast and i hope you'll get a lot of people over to your only fans since you just started but thank you so much for calling in and sharing your story you.
It was so lovely speaking with you today. Yeah, we appreciate it. Awesome. Thanks so much. Have fun in Costa Rica. I'm a little jealous. Well, come on down. Come on down. I always said, I'll be a swinger when I'm six days. It's around a unicorn she's on my show. She's like, why are you waiting until you're 60? Come while you're young. Exactly. All right. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Bye. Oh, one last thing before you go. If this episode helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the show is leaving a rating and review.
It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they're searching for relationship education. And we've made it easy. Visit swingeruniversity.com forward slash review. All the instructions are there. Thank you for being part of this community. We'll see you again soon.
