Send us Fan MailThe Swing Nation PodcastLifestyle Interview: Premature Ejaculation, Murder and Greed with Jeff Abraham | Episode 37 Dan and Lacy talk with Jeff Abraham, CEO of Absorption Pharmaceuticals, whose principle product is Promescent. Promescent has an array of products to help treat premature ejaculation and enable adults to have better sex while closing the orgasm gap between sexes. Jeff also explains the amazing dramatic backstory of the company that includes murder, sex, money, greed and a legal battle over trade secrets. There s a lot to unpack in this episode of The Swing Nation Podcast! _______________- The Swing Nation -Main WebsiteQuick Navigation Website: -- (Find all our social media links more!)Follow us on Facebook!The Podcast Website_______________ - Swinger Society -Our Website to meet, connect eventsSwinger Society DiscordOur Facebook Group_______________ - Swinger Websites -SDCUsername: TheSwingNation** Use code 36313 for 14 days free! **SLSUsername: NorthernGuynSouthernGirl_______________ - Merch More -The Swing Nation MerchThe Swinger Pride FlagsSwinger Society Merch_______________ - Lacy’s Fun Links -VIP OnlyFansPREMIUM OnlyFans_______________ -- THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS --Shameless Care: ED Medication and at home STD testingUse Code TSN at checkout for $30 off your order!Promescent® Make Love Longer, It’s Time for Great SexUse Code SwingNation for 5% off!Pinaq Liqueur; The Official Drink of The Swing NationUse Code TSN at checkout for 15% off!Non-monogamy Couples Course and Single Guy Mastery CourseUse Code ATLANTA for 50% off!Support the show- Thank you for the support! -
Transcript
This podcast is intended for adult audiences over the age of 18. It contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to us and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice.
welcome to the swing nation podcast a podcast by swingers for swingers where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe interview the experts learn and grow together join the nation hey there pineapple people and welcome to the swing nation podcast we are your hosts northern guy and southern girl in uh today's episode, we have a very special guest that is sitting down with us, Jeff Abraham, who is CEO of Absorption Pharmaceuticals.
And he's here to tell us about Promescent, which is kind of an exciting new thing coming onto the market. I guess it's been on the market for a while. but Jeff, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be part of all of this? I'm a 64-year-old male, about to turn 65 on May 31st, and I live in Summerlin, Nevada.
I spent the prior 30 years doing this from age 24 to age 53, owning and running a semiconductor engineering business which i had a great deal of success with it allowed me to retire early which was a big plus for me you know i wanted to retire and spend the rest of my life enjoying myself and my next door neighbor happened to be a urologist so he was my neighbor my friend you know my doctor and uh i went to see him in uh november of 2009 or december of 2009 and he told me hey i developed this new product and i don't think it's getting the traction that it really needs would you be willing to take a look at it help me out because i really know you're a great businessman blah i said sure turned out it was promissive and uh i asked him for a sample i wanted to do a little trial on my own to see if it really worked because when i asked him i said how big is this market and i knew what the ed market was because i saw a special on 60 minutes and it was 5 billion in legitimate tablets at that point and there was 1.2 knockoff fraudulent tablets from a legitimate one i'm like that's like a 10 billion dollar market i was expecting him to say it's about 10 or 15 the size of you know that market and he goes it's larger than ep i'm like what he goes yeah as a matter of fact he goes 15, percent of ed is misdiagnosed pe meaning that if a man has chronic premature rapid ejaculation he will eventually not be able to get an erection because his body's telling his mind every time this happens it leads to unsatisfactory conclusion i can't satisfy my partner so i tried it and i was like oh my god this stuff really does work it's legit and i invested in the company and i was really bored because i had just retired and uh i was 53 and i raised my son as a single father and he had just left and gone to college shortly before that and then i retired so i was busy 24 7-7 for 30 years.
All of a sudden, I had nothing to do. I wrote him a business plan. It really worked and helped out. They asked me to write a second-phase business plan. I did. They were, oh, this is great, but it's going to require another $400K. We don't have that kind of money. I said, well, I'll invest another $400K, but you have to do exactly what I'm telling you to do. And they did. And the company really took off. And then in June of 2011, they asked me to take over. Yeah. So I just want to touch on a few things there and kind of break it down a little bit for our audience.
So, so when you say premature ejaculation, that's, that's males that are ejaculating quickly or too quickly, or what, like, what does mean there's two definitions and i'll tell you both there's the medical definition which is sponsored by the international society of sexual medicine or the american neurological association and pe is defined medically is when a man can never under any circumstances last more than 67 60, whether it's, you know, intercourse, oral sex, masturbation, never last more than 60 seconds.
Most men will tell you if they last 70 seconds, they still want something to help them last a little bit longer because most women take a lot longer than 70 seconds.
So you have medical definition that you qualify as medically you know a PE sufferer if you're less than 60 seconds but in reality it should say if your relationship would improve by being able to last longer then you should be willing to seek some kind of help everyone knows that female you know orgasm times can vary by a woman some women literally can you know orgasm within two minutes of intercourse three minutes some women take a lot longer there can be a hooded clitoris or you know lack of sensitivity can take a lot longer so the actual definition should be if your relationship if your sexual relationship could benefit by an extended amount of time during intercourse, then you can seek some kind of therapy.
So there's the medical definition, then there's the recreational or better sex definition of people who just want to have better intimacy. We happen to be very comfortable serving both of those because we're we're very strong in the medical community but the total available market is even much greater when you consider the recreational aspect yeah 60 seconds is not enough time at all it's ridiculous okay yeah i mean like i need like 5 10 15 minutes yeah most people wouldn't be in a relationship very long if they never lasted more than 60 seconds during interview. Okay.
Well, it's interesting you bring that up because I don't think, you know, you know, we've had people reach out to us and with that kind of fear for swinging saying like, well, I've never had sex with anybody. But my wife for the last 20 years, like I'm worried if I engage, um, you know, with a new person, um, that, that, you know, it's going to be hard for me to not, you know, have an orgasm quickly. And so they, we've had people reach out to us and ask questions like that. Like, well, what do you do if you come too fast? Like what, do you just sit there and watch?
Like, how do you handle all that? Um, so, you know So I don't know how many, you know, Viagra is huge. Everybody in the swinging lifestyle knows about Viagra. I don't think there's too many people that know about the reverse, the premature ejaculation, and that there's products out there for that. We're starting to really make inroads into the swingers market, and we're finding rapid adoption.
I mean, people are oh my god because i will tell you this that there are some people that use our product that literally tell us normally i don't need it but if i'm with a new partner i need it anytime something is routine anytime something is done over and over again it loses a little bit of the anxiety because there's familiarity to it which is why a lot of people resort to swinging they want a little more excitement they want a little more variety on the menu so that tends to lead to a more rapid ejaculation because of the heightened sensitivity of a new partner also if someone hasn't had a release hasn't had the sexual experience for whether it be a month or six weeks or whatever, there tends to be a little bit more of a rapid or premature ejaculation because of the buildup and there hasn't been a release in a period of time.
So there are people who really don't have an issue with rapid or premature ejaculation that always want something because in certain circumstances, the two most obvious ones being with an unfamiliar partner or not having had sex in a while you might tend to ejaculate a little more rapidly yeah yeah it's definitely I know it's a concern people have brought to us you know who are thinking about or considering entering the lifestyle and it makes complete you know sense sense to me yeah so i think it is interesting that there's a product like that out there um yeah and i do know you know what so what's the different are you guys the only product out there what's different about your product than maybe some of the other products that are out there that's an excellent question there's actually quite a few products some of them are just out not fraudulentulent i wish i was joking but this is serious they sell bull extract derivative deer antler extract shark fin all these things talk as premature i go how bad does this problem have to be where someone resort to go give me some bull extract you know like jesus for god's sakes there's a whole family of products one of them predated us by 30 years.
They're called Stud 100 and Dynamo Delay and Duration by KY. They're all, I call them, the cane family of products, lidocaine, benzocaine products. And what they do is they numb you. They just sit on the surface and they numb you and they numb your partner.
So it solves one creates another okay so yeah i was about to say that cannot be fun like to be numb down there yeah at all possible so i first invested in the company and i was getting ready to invest more and take over the company i said i gotta try everything that's out there you know and so i bought some stud 100 and i tried it and ron gilbert who was the founder of our company says what do you think of the product i go someone could have dropped a cinder block on my penis i wouldn't have felt it okay i was i was having sex with my partner and i felt like i was watching a porno you know i mean that it was like i was watching sex but i felt so disassociated i was completely numb i couldn't feel anything in none my partner and i'm like what is the purpose we might as well go take a spin class or do hot yoga with a wedding but no one's enjoying themselves the brilliance of ron what he did was he developed a eutectic formula it changes the melting point of lidocaine lidocaine in its pure form is a crystal or solid so it just sits on the surface of your skin they change it to an oil aqueous or liquid form when they do that it penetrates the dermis or stratocornea so you wait five to seven minutes after application the man has a much higher degree of surface sensitivity and it doesn't transfer to the partner so in a nutshell that is the differentiator and it's huge yeah and so um you know i because i've researched your company and stuff you guys offer a lot more than just the delay spray there's several other um products you have out there you want to go through some of those yeah it's kind of funny because up until three years ago all we had was the delay spray and people go oh my god you're a genius all these products i go i'm not really a genius i just listen to my customers so a great deal of our customers early on they were like you know i didn't need lube when i was lasting 30 seconds now lasting 12 minutes i need lube you know okay great can you guys make a loop so we set about it and initially i the first loop we came up with was a water, and it was really good, and it gained a pretty significant adoption rate really quickly.
And then in our process of finalizing a lube and seeing what we were going to do, we'd also toyed with an organic aloe vera lube, and we had sent it out to some of our customers to try it because we have a core group customers doing those long term whenever we expand we send them products to try it and it was amazing how many people went hey i really like that organic aloe vera as well so we included that i'm not a big fan of silicone loops only because after using a silicone loop it takes freaking a week to wash that shit off of your skin i swear to god i feel like with a pillow pad you know if it's on my chest the shirt i was wearing is sticking to me you know i'm like a silicone guy but there were certain people especially with toys and stuff that wanted silicone lube so we included those and it was amazing because those immediately took off and they were great adlocks you know and then it was just logical to go into condoms once we had to delay spray loose.
So we did that. And that worked out really well for us. I think we actually used some of your massage oil in Atlanta over the weekend. Which flavor? I don't remember. I don't remember. It was we quickly grabbed it out of a bag and used it. I don't think I read the label, but it definitely worked. There's like four different shades or four different scents, so to speak. Thank you. We quickly grabbed it out of a bag and used it. I don't think I read the label, but it definitely worked. There's like four different shades or four different scents, so to speak. So we went into that area.
And then this was, again, I wish I could say I developed this. We had a lot of people saying, you know what I'd really like? And I go, what? They go, some kind of a little aloe vera moisture pad. You know what I mean? And they go, because, you know, I go to clubs. I go hang out. my girlfriend I go, what? They go, some kind of a little aloe vera moisture pad. You know what I mean? And they go because, you know, I go to clubs, I go hang out. My girlfriend, I go, you know, away for the weekend and we go out dancing. We come home. And if we don't take a shower, I just like to freshen up a bit.
And they go, not only that, the same thing you can be used for to clean up afterwards.
So, you know, if you're go out to a club and you're hanging out and you're dancing and you go home with someone you're about to look up you go i would like to freshen up just the hair you know what i mean yeah so they're absolutely we know all about that exactly they're called before and after wipes and people use them both pre-sexual activity to give them a more fresh feel and afterwards it's kind of a cleanup and those were an immediate hit and and again i just listened to my customers they asked me for it i delivered and they they became very popular and we recently uh introduced a delay wipe so instead of the bottle it's a wipe it's not as effective as the wipe or as a spray, excuse me, but it's really convenient.
It's a little foil packet that fits anywhere. You know, it's very unintrusive, but it's the same thing. If someone's going to a club one evening or someone goes, oh, we're going out in a boat, you know, I don't want to carry a little bottle around with me. Then they take the white. But a lot of our people, they literally buy a bottle of Promescent for the nightstand, and they buy six or eight wipes whenever they're going to be on the road, so to speak, you know, that type of thing. Lacey likes to keep them in her club bag as well when we go to swingers' clubs. Yep, I got a little baggy.
Well, it's funny because, oh, I forgot one of our main products.
We developed a female arousal gel and it's not systemic it's not like you take something that changes your hormonal balance or anything like that it's a bunch of emollients with the warming gel it brings a warming sensation and you rub it right on the clitoria right on the labia and it definitely increases arousal and we've had a tremendous amount of tests we have two versions we have a warming version which brings warmth and a buzzing version the buzzing version is a little much with someone for with a sensitive clitoris they'll tell you no no that was a little bit too much uh sometimes more adventuresome women you know will go i love the buzzing because it gets me really, really going.
So we have both options, but about 75% of our sales happens to be the warming gel. It just brings a nice warming sensation. There's a podcast of female two swingers called Wild Orchids, and I was doing their show. This was a couple months ago. And I think I've been on three or four times.
The one one gal says to me guess what I'm wearing today and they're both sitting at a table and I go you got a blue blazer on with kind of a cream sweater she goes no down below I go well and I'm like I don't know where this conversation's going she goes I'm wearing some formescent female arousal gel and I'm like what she goes i find that a little dab will do you in the morning before i come in she goes i dab up and she goes it's almost like four or five hours of foreplay she goes all that sounds good it's really sensual she goes at lunchtime or a break in the afternoon i go and i hit myself up again she goes by the time i come home at the end of the day i feel like i've had eight hours of foreplay i just feel really horny i feel really turned on from this you know just warming you know moist feeling all day and i start joking i said that would never work with guys she goes really because if a guy starts feeling like that he's gonna go in the bathroom and relieve himself you know guys are more like i don't want to be like warmed up all day i'll have another one later but i have this feeling right now i'm gonna pleasure myself you know you know it's just it's the mindset between men and women men get a heart of it like i gotta find somewhere to put this you know what i like i i have to get that great feeling right now women tend to love the anticipatory nature of it you know build you know and let's have this crescendo later on at least you know quite a few more and it's funny because it's there's just such a difference in both refractory period for male and female, the amount of orgasms men can have, especially as you age, compared to females.
And I always tell a lot of our male clients that when they go, oh, you know, I have my patented moves, I have this. And I go, you almost can never have a patented move as a guy because women are so different.
because you'll date someone who's like don't touch me right on the clitoris light you know circling around the valve is what i need oh it's great then the next woman you're with they'll go get a jackhammer some sandpaper start hammering for the next thing you're like how can this be the same gender how is this the same species you know and it's just weird like that it's funny because with most men, it's pretty standard. I've never met a guy ever in my entire life who went, you know, I really don't like being blown, okay?
It's like every single dude I've ever met go, it combines two of my favorite activities, having sex and doing nothing, laying back and enjoying myself, you know? And there's so many women.
And I always tell men that I deal with, because I'm very interactive with our customer base you know i work the chat room once a while and i always encourage people to reach out and email me or talk to me you know that kind of stuff but it's really funny because it's just the the best tool you can have is communication you know what i mean and because so many women will go oh i really don't enjoy oral sex if you're a man you need to say to a woman is it because you're worried about the scent or you're worried about the taste worried about the way your vagina looks because in my estimation in my experience almost 100 of the time when a woman tenses up or says she doesn't really enjoy oral sex, it's not she doesn't enjoy oral sex.
She's got so much anxiety, worry, does it taste good, does it smell good, you know? So as a man, we need to help them get rid of that stigma and say, honey, if it tasted really bad or smelled really bad, I'd be up north again real quick. You know what I mean? I wouldn't be down where I'm at. So if that's your issue, relax. Okay. And it's interesting. You kind of bring all, all these things up, right. And cause we had our pre phone call with you and we kind of talked about, you know, all these different products that you have and kind of like, well, how does that incorporate to the lifestyle?
And you've really said to us, well, you know, I see swingers is one of the communities out there that are really willing to explore and take their time with sex and you know lifestyle people have kind of made sex you know they realize that it's for pleasure and that it doesn't have to be you know you don't have to be in love with somebody you don't have to be married to somebody that you can truly you know engage with sex sex with with somebody just for enjoyment um and i you're saying, there's, there, you know, there's all these products out there, you know, people that just, you know, have plain normal sex, they don't use loops.
They don't use all, you know, like, like enjoy it. Like, here's all these products. Here's all these things you can try.
There's all these toys, all these loops, all these, you know, different things like experiment, enjoy, feel, feel like, see what works for you, see you see what doesn't work for you you know try different things and i i think that's kind of what you're saying is like hey we have this whole smorgasbord of things give it a try toys and vibrators and early on i noticed that we were selling primarily to women so i started talking to some of our customers and a lot of males have this prehistoric and medieval feeling like oh if i got to use a toy or a vibrator that means i'm not a good lover no it means if you're not open to it you're not a good lover okay yeah yeah toys are there to help exactly your goal should be for your partner to have as many orgasms as possible, okay?
Because the more you satisfy your partner, the more she's like, I'm taking care of this dude. He takes good care of me. I don't want to go anywhere, okay? So you're paying it forward. And maybe it's because of my age or I've just always been pretty open. I don't give a shit how my partner is getting orgasms. I just want to have as many pleasurable orgasms as possible because I know if she does that I'm going to be, you know, reciprocated. So take your ego out of the way. Check your ego at the door. Your goal should be as long as I'm in the room somewhere, you know what I mean?
Like have as many orgasms as possible, you know?
And when we first decided we were going to do vibrators, every company in the because we've been very successful we're growing oh we want you to think about private labeling this vibrate that private i have 38 vibrators i have every kind of vibrator known to mankind and my goal was with my partner to try every single one you know and we got about 90 of the way through them and i was like you know certain vibrators are built differently some something some are built specifically for women with pelvic floor pain some of them are built for women who you know can't orgasm you know through traditional intercourse there's a big difference in vibrators there's a lot of really good quality vibrators have a lot of thought put into them there's second rate ones.
And, you know, the price point obviously reflects it. But you're right. Swingers tend to literally look at sex for exactly what it is, a pleasurable activity that should be no different than any other pleasurable activity, whether it's going to the gym, going skiing, you know, going boating. But so many people get caught up in all the religious, you know, and, you know, it's plain vanilla, get it over with. You don't know how many times I've heard married couples going, oh, we don't need something to last longer. I need something to get it over with. I'm like. That's horrible. Horrible.
Absolutely horrible. I will tell you a story that's really funny. So I've done a lot of serious radio, serious XM radio shows and a lot of podcasts and stuff. And it's weird. You'll be surprised. You guys did your homework. You said, hey, man, I can tell by your questions. So I did the Jamie Foxx Foxhole, which was a comedy network. And all these young African-Americans, they had done research. I came in.
they were totally in tune i did shade 45 which is rude jude the m&m you know rap station rude jude had really done his homework whatever whatever so i had done this uh taylor stricker with this hampton socialite thing in new york city xm and it's right before the jenny mccarthy's show in the same studio so jenny mccarthy's producer happened to overhear the ending of my segment goes hey you want to come back and do our show okay great yeah i'll come back and do your show i did the jenny mccarthy show it was the dumbest show i've ever been on in my entire life why anyone gives that woman a microphone I swear to God, we're like 30 seconds into it.
She's like, women don't want sex to last longer we want it to get over with no i'm like excuse me she goes yeah it hurts we don't want it to go on that much longer i'm like i think you need to see your gynecologist okay yeah doing something right. There's something wrong with either your anatomy, your partner's anatomy, or there's something you're doing that's not correct. Because believe me, there is a tremendous need for it to last longer. That's the first time I've ever heard someone tell me, especially someone who has a radio show who's educating people.
It's one of the things that I love people like you that educate people because there are other people out there spewing disinformation, which there could be nothing worse. Okay. Okay. Listening to that, you're thinking, Oh, we need to have more intercourse and you're listening to someone you supposedly trust. And as a radio show telling, you know, it's better to get it over with sooner. It's like, what?
yeah somebody um reached out to us a few weeks ago and said something about having sex for five minutes or something was it that and dan was like do normal people only have sex for five minutes are we abnormal like what's wrong with us and we laughed so hard about it out of the realm of p and talk about the average healthy male the average healthy female because they have several clinics where they study sexual behavior and they literally have them on tape and the people have a stopwatch when they ejaculate they click the stopwatch you know that kind of stuff the average healthy adult male during actual penetration thrusting lasts five minutes and 42 seconds before the average female takes 18 minutes of penetration or thrusting to achieve climax.
They actually work in the medical community. They call it the arousal gap. So literally the majority of people in this country, if they don't use some kind of aid, the man will ejaculate before the woman orgasms so that leads to extended foreplay that leads to a lot of guys going oh my god not yet let me think about baseball scores let me think about my grandmother naked you know and in some cases it creates a feeling on the woman's part like the guy's not into me it's not he's not into you he's concentrating so hard on not ejaculating and not feeling the pleasure.
That's why he's not really in the moment, you know? So it's really important that people understand that, you know? And we have other people that tell us, I always have some promessant on hand because, you know, it's too late to get fire insurance.
If you come home and your house is burning down, you can't call up and go, Hey, I want to get fire what's that crackling sound i heard about it's my house burning down sorry too late okay so a lot of people will tell us i always keep some around because i'm with a brand new partner or i just feel super aroused i want that insurance policy i want that confidence booster that i go i know i'm not going to rapidly ejaculate you know that kind of a thing so it's a real complex issue but a lot of people really find benefit in using it we've got a couple people that are swinger networks that tell us that hey you know they might be a little up in age and they go if i'm 50 or 60 i see three or four people that i want to i don't want to ejaculate after the first one you know what i mean and so i really want to make sure that i can make my rounds before it's blast off time you know and i go you know my i don't have a lot of swinging but you know i go if i started, if I started at an older age, I go, man, that would have been perfect.
I would have had my own supply, you know? All right. Well, I think with that, we'll take a little break and we'll hear from our sponsors. And then I want to come back and I want to talk to you, Jeff, a little bit about the kind of the saga behind Promescent and kind of the amazing story that the brand has. And that's kind of got you to where you are today and kind of and go over that some with you if you don't mind. Yeah. All right. The Swing Nation podcast is proud to announce an official partnership with SDC.com. SDC stands for Seek, Discover, Connect.
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Make sure you join the Swing Nation SDC group and send us a message. All right. And welcome back. We're back here with Jeff.
And then then so we left off with uh talking a little bit about um the saga and so uh the promescent story has been kind of everywhere in in headlines um on the news um it's kind of a a crazy story um one maybe fit for hollywood um yeah it's like a lifetime movie kind of we watched the video earlier it's a really really crazy story um everything that has happened throughout the years for sure uh but you had mentioned so when you said you know your your friend your neighbor um the doctor that had kind of started about all this um i'm assuming you meant dr ron gilbert is Is that's right dr ron gilbert co-host hospital newport beach was the creator and founder of promessa right and and so i guess after you started working with him um something kind of tragic happened do you want to kind of go over that for for the audience really, it's really kind of bizarre because, you know, I took over and remade the company.
They started becoming very successful. We were having a great run, and we had our first offer. It was substantive to buy the company, and everyone was really upbeat. And he called me or texted me one morning.
It was January 28thth in 2013 and he's like hey man i love your brother you made my dream a reality and i texted him back and i said fasten your seatbelt i said this ride's just getting started it's only going to get better and i got a phone call an hour later and i was informed that he had been murdered and i was like that's impossible he's in his office at hove hospital newport beach i don't know if you know much about newport beach or hove hospital there's not a lot of murders in newport beach or specifically in a hospital and i didn't believe it was true and turned out to be true it was a disgruntled patient who had a prostate surgery 23 years prior decided he was going to kill the doctor and he went to the VA because it was a VA surgery and got the name wrong and murdered the wrong guy and it was tragic and nonsensical and I had a really hard time understanding it and the only way I was able to deal with it was to eventually say, I'm rational.
I'm not insane. I can't understand an irrational, insane man's thoughts being sane and rational. So I just had to let it go. And what I promised myself was that I would give him a legacy, something other than the doctor shot by the crazy guy, and provide for his wife and his children. So it became my mission to honor him and give him a legacy. And every podcast, every serious radio show I do, I mention him and his contributions. And we've been know, provide very nicely for the family. But it was just one of those things that it's almost hard to fathom.
You have to let it go because for those of us who loved him, if he would have been killed in a plane crash or a car crash, it wouldn't be any less tragic, but it'd be easier to take because you just go, oh, it was random, his time was up. You know how that. But the idea that someone walked into his office and killed him, it leaves you with a feeling like not only could he still be here, it leaves you with a feeling he should still be here. He should still be here. And all the success we're having, it's great, and I love it.
But you don't know how many times a day, a week, a month where I go, wow, I wish he could see where this little company's at right now. I wish he had an idea of how well we're doing, you know, but you can't unring that bell. You can't change it. So we just have to move on. And then we were contacted by a huge behemoth, $22 billion a year company. They reached out.
They said to us, we want to to acquire you and they signed an mba went through this due diligence process and then they vanished and tried knocking us off and crushing us knowing full well the whole backstory about ron i was like gotta be kidding me and their strategy was pretty simple they were just going to delay things run If the cost is cost so high, figure it would go away. But unfortunately, we're not going away. Yeah, so I read a little bit about that story.
So it seems like when you first came on with Promescent, that the goal was always to just make it a viable product, show that there was demand for it, and then sell it to a bigger market, like a Johnson & Johnson or some bigger company. A distribution experience, someone could take it into Walmart, CBS, you know, Walgreens and go put it on the shelf, put it on the shelf. And, you know, we started off with me, one employee, you know what I mean? And so our goal wasn't to become some behemoth company. It was to make it viable, show the value proposition, have someone else take it over.
I will tell you that we're in Walmart, a thousand Walmart stores now. We're in Target nationwide. We're in GNC locations. You know, we're doing quite well, but I still want to get it in the hands of a multi-billion dollar company with channel power that can really maximize the product and the benefits, especially now that we're a multi-product company. So that still is the goal. Right. And then so as the story goes, and you started to allude to this UK company, I understand, which is a giant package good. They're called Reckham and Deezer. They go by RB.
This company owns Air airwik lysol mucinex ky durex frank's red hot french's mustard dr shoals clear as so i could go on for days meat johnson baby food they are an absolute behemoth yeah and you know starting may 9th we get him in court in Newark, New Jersey. Yeah, that's exciting. And it's a jury trial. So I messaged Dan after we watched the video today. And I was like, when is the trial? How did it go? Did they win? They did this in 2015. Okay. Right. So they approached you and said, hey, we're interested in this product. Make no mistake. They approached us. They came to us. Right.
And then so, you know, I'm not a businessman, but my understanding is then there's a due diligence process where they can look at the product, see if it's viable. You said you guys signed an NDA. Yes. And then they started to kind of invest the product or, you know, look into the product and see if it was something that they were interested in. is typically in place for this reason. When you sign an NDA, they agree that you have to make certain internal documents available to them because how else could they properly evaluate if they want to acquire it?
But they agree by signing the NDA that they would never use any of your trade secrets, any of your intellectual property, and that they're doing it in good faith for the purpose of acquisition.
And that upon resolution of one way or the other, either acquiring you or deciding not to do it, they have to destroy all the materials that were provided to them and also not use anything they learned to further their own interests or diminish you and you know it's our contention in the complaint it's both fraud and you know a trade secret violation that they did this in bad faith knowing they were developing a competitive product at the exact same time while denying that they were doing it and then using everything they learned from us. Yeah.
So my understanding is that that due diligence process got dragged out to over a year with, with between you and you supposed to be initially They assured me they would get the deal done in 30 days. And they kept dragging it out. And it was like, oh, the offer's on the CEO's desk. He's on vacation. Every excuse you can imagine. Oh, we have to do this. We have to do that. And it just kept dragging it out, dragging it out.
And again, we entered into it under the premise of we'll get this done in 30 days and then how did you so my understanding is they then directly launched a competitor to Promescent um and what's the story how did you you figure out that that's what they did and how that happened it was pretty obvious because on our initial meeting bolker sadal who was their uh i believe his title was director of sexual wellness you know ky and directs and everything we sat down we met in new york he flew from london i flew from las vegas summer I live. And he goes, I love what I've heard so far.
I love the conference call we had. This is dynamic, the information you provided to me. But I got to tell you, you have a tough road to hoe. This company doesn't believe these products work. And they also don't believe there's a market for them. I was like, really? And he's like, yeah. And I said, they had had a product in this space and dropped it. Okay. And I said, well, no disrespect, but your product was absolute shit. Okay. So how would you know if there's a market when you sold, you know, X amount of trial bottles to, you know, certain amount of people, no one ever re-bought it.
The reason you don't think there's a market is because you had a crap product. Thank you.
sold you know x amount of trial bottles to you know certain amount of people no one ever re-bought it the reason you don't think there's a market is because you had a crap product and i brought him some samples and stuff and i said i want you to go back and use these samples and you'll see that there is a product that works and uh i believe through us you'll be able to see that there's a viable market here he went back and distributed the samples among all these senior executives and sent me an email we have an email oh my god this stuff is fantastic everyone the whole team has used it and loves it you know and this is a great opportunity and we need this information from me this information this information we're going this done ASAP.
I can't wait, you know, and you go from that. And when they launched their own product, literally like a little less than a year after ours ended, it takes probably three years to come to market with a product from inception.
Within a year after launching launching us they were launching another product after saying they didn't believe there was a market they didn't believe that these products worked and their own press release said it's the biggest launch in the history of ky they spent over 50 million dollars launching it now this is a segment that they said they didn't believe was valid and that products didn't work. The only thing that changed in between them saying this product, these products don't work. This market segment is not big was their due diligence of ProMessage.
So that's not you don't have to be Inspector Blousseau to figure that one out.
You know what I looked at everything there and i think i believe this is my personal opinion that they went to a small company at the time we were four people you know we're 22 billion a year 37 000 employees we're just going to roll over these guys we're just going to basically use them as a kill we're going to steal everything and dare them to come after us so you know i'm very confident but remember anytime you go to trial you have a jury it's made up of human beings so you know anything can happen but i'm very confident when the facts all get laid out and the testimony all gets presented that we will be victorious i'm very confident it's just a matter of now getting to court and people ask me you know what are your fears i got my biggest fear was not getting to court this thing just kept dragging on and dragging on they kept filing motions and you know it was obvious from day one we wanted to get to trial tomorrow they wanted to get to trial never you know right and they filed these counterclaims uh i believe it was a couple months after we filed our initial thing and my attorney called me and said hey they filed counterclaims and i started laughing and he's like you think counterclaims are funny i go well you're joking right he's like no i go we didn't do anything what do you mean they filed counterclaims i go he goes i swear to god and so he starts reading them to me and i go how long is this he goes well it's a legal document, it's like multiple pages, I said, just email it to no, I swear to God.
And so he starts reading them to me. I go, how long is this? He goes, well, it's a legal document. It's like multiple pages. I said, just email it to me. Let me read it. And then call me in 20 minutes. So sure enough, it calls me in 20 minutes. He goes, do you read it? I go, yeah. He goes, what do you think? I go, it's pure fiction. It's absolutely ludicrous. They cannot go into court with that. They would get laughed out of court.
He goes, well, then I believe the only reason they would have filed those file those he goes would be specifically to delay things and run up the cost right and i go they can do that he goes yeah and then they'll drop them right before trial he goes we're going to file a motion asking for sanctions meaning that if they drop them because if we put it on notice right after they file we don't believe this is good faith then the judge can say you're right and sanction them so for three years we had to deal with those counterclaims we spent over two million dollars fighting those counterclaims they had expert testimony expert depositions expert reports all this stuff guess what they dropped a block stock and barrel they dropped everything literally 30 days before our trial date, which was supposed to be in January, we got delayed because of the Omicron.
And I was furious. Let me show you how dysfunctional the legal system is. So the judge was pissed at them and said, I'm not going to rule on them until after trial because I don't want it to be prejudicial and come before the jury. Now, something prejudicial means they don't want something unrelated to the litigation to affect the jury. Unrelated to litigation, they filed those during the litigation, okay?
But they literally got what they wanted because they ran up the cost, which could have probably, you know, likely driven us away or made us take some ridiculous settlement and to just keep delaying it. Those things delayed it. The legal system of this country has to be changed. The majority of people, until you get involved, you see something like this, they don't realize how dysfunctional the legal system is. It's insane. So with that, this is, my understanding is this is the first time you've had to stand up and take on a giant. Is that accurate?
Yeah, Jane Wells is a very good friend of mine. She's a reporter for CNBC. She gave me a little insight. And she's got a lot of stories on this. So in 1990, don't ask me how. I always run into these corrupt international behemoths. But in 1996, I owned, this is what I retired from. I owned the largest semiconductor engineering business in the whole industry. Very successful. And I got this contract, do this recruiting for Hyundai up in Eugene, Oregon. And this is the craziest thing. And I started and we were having a lot of success. And I get a call from the HR manager.
He's like, oh, you're doing a great job. Love everything you're doing. But we need to streamline things. I go, okay, what do you need? No women, no blacks. We don't like those.
I'm like'm like excuse me you can do it anywhere you want to if you come to this country you're following the laws and i'm not going to become part of that okay so i refused i just kept sending the best person for the job and i sent a female candidate for a particular job but we told you no more like illicit guys i'm not going to screen out by virtue of race you must you're a client i'm like i can't deal with this so i said i'm going to reach out right to the president of hyundai north america so let him know he'll straighten this out so i reach out to him and i told him what's happening and he's like what and i'm like yeah and he goes i'll take care of it don't tell anyone i said okay great so i go into the office the next day my office in Huntington Beach I tell my employees I got it all handled don't worry it's taken care of an hour later we get a phone call you're fired I'm like wait that wasn't my idea of taking care of it I thought you were gonna make sure they tried to take care of it yeah so as you might imagine I was furious so I had sent him the invoices for what i was owed up until that point because i was on net 30 and we're just getting to that two month part so i sent the invoices and like a week later because back then they didn't have electronic banking there was the internet was really in its infant stages back in 96 it wasn't even a something people use all the time for business and everything.
And so I remember I was going to lunch. I got this FedEx package. I go, good, I got my check. And I open up this FedEx envelope and it literally says, sign this contract before we can execute your invoices. It said, we in Hyundai are equal opportunity employers who follow the laws of the EEOC. I'm like, I'm not signing that. So I called the HR manager. I said, I'm not signing that because we're not paying you. I go, you can't withhold money I rightfully earned unless I sign a fake document. Well, you sign that or you're not getting paid. As you might imagine, I was furious. I mean, furious.
One thing led to another, and I called the attorney. He goes, listen, as soon as I'll file something, we'll pay it immediately. No one, you know, is that nuts. Well, they were that nuts. We filed it. They took the opposite tack. They'll destroy you. They start bad-mouthing me. I'm like, whoa, what? And it took us four years to get them into court. It was brutal. And I got them into court, and I whipped their ass. I mean, I was on CBS News. They did a little thing on 60 Minutes. I was in Forbes magazine, you know.
And, oh, my God, this guy took on this freaking $100 billion company, you know, and brought them to their knees. And I go, it was the right thing to do it's just wrong I have a wonderful family and I had a wonderful mom and dad but we were really poor when I grew up we didn't have much and this country gave me an opportunity to better myself no one ever said to me don't hire him he's white and male no one ever said to me don't do business with me he's a white male so there was no way that I was going to be part of a scheme to keep people down.
I wasn't asking them specifically, you have to hire a certain amount of women, you have to hire a certain amount of African American. All I was saying is don't judge applicants on the gender or their race. Look at the resume, hire them. It's good business, okay? It's the right thing to do. Yes, it's the right thing to do.
And do and and i remember afterwards people go oh my god you're a hero i said no i'm not a hero i did the right thing okay more people need to look at it as you know and people said you literally walked away from 1.6 million dollars i said yeah i did because i wouldn't have felt right if i would have thrown a bunch of people I didn't know under the bus. And I'm proud of what I did. And I'm proud the fact that I stood up for people that aren't even representative of who I am, because they didn't know they were being discriminated against.
And right now, the fight that I fight, I retired once already. Okay. I have lupus. I have diabetes. I'm about to turn 65 years old. I retired at 53 for a reason. I don't need this, okay? I should be enjoying the rest of my life. I'm fighting right now. The first time I fought for women in African-Americans, I'm fighting right now for my shareholders, my employees, and Ron's family, okay? They don't have to be leveraged like this. More importantly, it's turned out, as you read, that this company's done this before.
before and they've had people sign as soon as they do a payout they sign a non-disclosure you know they keep it quiet i'm also doing this for the future people they're going to do it too if i shut up and i don't fight this and i turn do one of two things either go it's not worth let it go, or accept a settlement and sign a confidentiality agreement. It's going to encourage them to keep doing it, okay? Somebody has to be the one that eventually punches the bully in the face and goes, fuck you, you're not getting away with this, okay?
You're not, you know, it just, it angers me to the point that I can't even really put it into words. It's just, it's so obnoxious and it's so predatory that it's disgusting. It's gross. And the fact is that they think they can get away with it is even more blatant because it just shows you they've done it. There's no fear. It was like, and people say to me, like, how did they do this? I go, well, after my experience, having been through it twice now with Hyundai and now this, I literally, I say to people, they go, how can they do it? What were they thinking? You know what they were thinking?
It was Tuesday. It was Wednesday. This is their mindset now. They go, why buy what we can steal? They knew exactly what they were doing. The Hyundai thing, I like to make a distinction. Even though what Hyundai did was wrong, it was an error of omission. It's so endemic in South Korea. They're 27% of the gross national product in the entire country. One in four people in the country of South Korea works for Hyundai. They get away with anything they want. They own the judicial system, the police. I mean, no one messed with them.
up so and the people there it was just that's the way they operate that they were born that way they'll die that way it's different these guys know better okay they are arrogant they are obnoxious and they do it because they think they can get away with it they do it because it's power it's leverage it's money And they feel since they're bigger and more powerful than you, that they can get away with it they do because it's power it's leverage it's money and they feel since they're bigger and more powerful than you that they can get away with it my goal is to teach them i don't give a shit how much money you have i don't care how powerful you are i'm going to fight your ass i'm going to drag your ass into court i'm going to air this out and i'm very confident that a jury of my peers sitting 10 feet 20 feet aware they're going to listen to this and they're going to look at you and go what the hell were you doing and how dare you come into this courtroom and try to pull that bullshit on us yeah and we you know we wish you the best of luck yeah i'm all about this definitely i need to know what's going on yeah and that case is this month right yeah oh it starts may it starts May 9th.
Yeah. And you said you're packed and you're headed that way here shortly. I'm headed there Tuesday because, you know, I turn 65 soon. I battle some, you know, pretty horrific, you know, health issues. I want to get there. And I already found the Whole Foods. I already found True Foods. I already found restaurants, I found a gym, I found a yoga place. I don't want to go there and be jet-lagged eating food. I'm not, you know, going there, you know, not feeling well, bloated, you know what I mean?
So I want to get there, get back on my exercise routine, eat the way I eat, you know, and so that by the time I take the stand next Wednesday or Thursday, I'm back into my routine, I feel comfortable. You get to be this age, you don't realize that you're far younger but you get to be a creature of habit you know what i mean like you love your routine i love eating foods that i know agree with me i love staying healthy i love daily exercise it's part of how i handle dealing with what I deal with. And I don't want to feel like I'm in a strange place.
I want to have a level of comfort built up by the time we go to trial. Yeah. So I think on that, that note of, you know, our really what, why me and Lacey started this podcast and really have been speaking out on Tik TOK and other social media platforms is, you know, the swinger community, the non-monogamous community, I, I think it's still one of the communities that's, you know, faced a fair amount of discrimination. Uh, you know, Thank you.
media platforms is, you know, the swinger community, the non-monogamous community, I think is still one of the communities that's, you know, faced a fair amount of, you know, discrimination. You know, there's people that lose their jobs, that, you know, have had issues with child custody cases. You know, there's just this stigma. I don't think really people understand non-monogamous people. I don't think people understand swingers.
I think, you know, because there is some, you know, sexual activity involved, there just just a stigma about that um you know what you have any opinions on that uh you know i think your company being a sex-based company has faced probably some some of that stigma and discrimination we face it all the time we see ads that we can't run on facebook on instagram on twitter you know all this stuff and i'm like these are ads for a sexual wellness product that has a board of advisors we have the president of the sexual medicine society of north america the president of the international side of sexual medicine on our board and you're telling me we're running you know an ad about educating people and you're considering it pornographic what plan you know i will tell you about my experience with the swinger community is they are much less uptight they're much more open they literally have so much healthier attitudes and this idea that oh you know you could possibly lose custody you should give custody of a child to someone who's a swinger because at least they'll grow up without being taught that sex is bad.
It's naughty. Save it for marriage. You know, all this other nonsense that leads to bad relationships and failed marriages and people with all kinds of sexual hangups. My experience now has taught me that you know who's in the swinger network? The guy that lives next to you, your banker, your lawyer, but to a large degree, they're keeping it quiet because there is that stigma and they're afraid of retaliation or they're afraid of being judged because there's so many freaking, you know, puritanical idiots running around that they have to keep it a little bit, you know, low key.
But the people that I've dealt with in the Swinger community are wonderful they're honest they're open and you know even our business relationships with some of the swingers communities they're very upfront and they're very high integrity people and they do the right thing and i think part of it is they've said to themselves i'm not lying anymore you know i'm really comfortable and up front and i want to be on the level in all parts of my life not just sexually but all parts and i think people in bad marriages tend to lie because it's part of being in a bad marriage oh are you happily married oh yeah it just seemed like it was yesterday oh every day is proud please you know what i mean and so what you mean when you start lying I don't think you ever draw the line you know what I mean and it's like one of those things that it comes real natural when you do it 24 7 yeah everything that you're saying right now is stuff that we have been preaching and talking about for months now kind of why we went on social media to kind of expose ourself and talk about our lifestyle it's one thing i don't filter i don't ever have an agenda i just tell the truth from my perspective yeah it doesn't mean it's right but it's what i've observed and i've been around 65 years i've seen a lot yeah and i'm not unwise you know what i mean yeah so when i generally have an opinion it's pretty close to the truth because i've seen so much you know what i mean and if you're observant and you're aware the longer you're on the planet the more knowledge you have yeah i appreciate that jeff that means that means a lot and i think that's you know especially from somebody that's you know not in the lifestyle that you you know that but have worked with people and influencers in the lifestyle you know to to have that come have that come from you, that, that means a lot.
And one of the things I love about the lifestyle too, is even the company, the different podcasts and the different networks, they're all in it together. They're not like, Oh my God, there are rivals. They realized by promoting the lifestyle, everybody wins. They realize by de-stigmatizing the lifestyle, everybody wins.
It's like there's a lot of companies in our industry and a lot of you know societies in our industry like even some cases the sexual medicine societies there's three or four different ones they like try to steal doctors from one another and you know they're in if they say this we have to say that i really like the way the swinger network i see people going on each other's podcasts and let's just build a bigger pie and everyone will get a nice slice you know i mean and that's a refreshing attitude that more people need to have yeah i think at least as of now it's it's a huge community with very few faces and voices that are advocating for it um and i know from mine and l perspective, you know, anybody that's willing to out themselves and, you know, shed a lot, a light on the lifestyle, especially when it's a positive light.
Um, you know, we a hundred percent support them and we'll build them up and raise them up as much as we possibly can. Um, cause I think that's the right thing to do. That is absolutely the right thing to do if everyone's on point everyone's on message it's going to break down barriers it's going to take down walls it's going to allow more regular people to go i think i never realized that i want to participate in the swinger network i think now that i realize it's not you know some seedy back room a room, a bunch of drug addicts, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we know what you mean.
That there are normal, healthy, regular, intelligent people. I think it'll open up because let's face it. I've never been married, so I don't know what it's like to be in a 20 year relationship. I think I put my head in the oven and turn the gas on if I was. You know what I mean? I'd be so worried. But I think there's a lot of people that if those stigmas come down, would go, honey, let's go. It'll save our marriage. It's not going to endanger our marriage. It will save our marriage because we'll appreciate the time we have together more, not less, by having a little variety in your life.
I always tell this to people. Think about this. If someone says to me right now, what is your favorite meal? I'd probably go swordfish or sea bass. I'm a seafood lover. If someone's fed me swordfish for dinner for 20 straight years and someone goes, what do you want for dinner? Anything but fucking swordfish. Absolutely anything. Give me a piece of rotten fucking veal, okay? Just not fucking swordfish, okay? I mean, so, I mean, when they say familiarity breeds contempt, they say it for a reason. It does. I agree, Jeff. I think you're all over it.
i think we need you on the podcast more because you uh you shed a light on it that i think even me and lacy have missed so we appreciate we appreciate your voice it's the truth it's absolutely the truth and i've had people i talk to that are on swinger networks and stuff tell me we were on the verge of breaking up. We start swinging. Our marriage is better than it ever was ever before because we really appreciate the time we have together. And when we come back from a weekend, we're hot for one another. Yeah.
I can't believe how many people tell me what a turn on it is seeing their partner with other people. It is.
It's hot we can uh we can attest we know anything we can know we know that yeah because the actual inclination is jealousy you know what i mean oh my god how dare you but it's all about ego just like i said when you know man oh my god a woman uses a vibrator must mean i'm not a great lover you know no it means that she is capable of multiple orgasms in many different scenarios and allow her to achieve as many as possible and you know in a swinger network it should be exciting to see your woman having pleasure knowing that eventually you're taking her home and you two will have pleasure together as well and same thing with her seeing you it's always nice to think your partner is desirable not just to you but to other people 100 so i think uh in the in the interest of time i think we could talk to you all all day uh your story is is fascinating your your knowledge and insight on all of this is is fascinating um but is there anything before we end this that you'd you'd like to say to uh the swing nation or or the uh the swingers of the world out there that listen to this podcast one thing i'll say is communicate but i think i don't have to say it to swingers because they already communicated to the point where their swinger network i always say to people if you want to evaluate what have, you know, we're available in all these retail locations, all these websites.
But I always tell people, start at our website, go to promessant.com. It's P-R-O-M-E-S-T-E-N-T for this reason. Even if you don't buy products, you'll see blogs. You will see testimonials. You'll see videos. You'll see.
And I received a lot of credit for that early on people go is that a university education site or a sexual wellness product site i go well it's both and they go you don't want to go there you want to everything has to be buy and funnel people into buy why do you take them to all these pages but i go because we believe the more educated you are the higher probability you're going to find our products can enhance what you have. More importantly, you can buy it anywhere, but by going to our website, I want you to make sure you're buying the proper product for the right reason.
Then I want to make sure you're using it correctly. We have testimonials from doctors telling the proper way to use it.
Then go buy it wherever, but at least go to the site so you know you're buying the right product for the right reason and that's the most important thing end of the day i don't want people buying our product and not even though it's a sale and not using it correctly and not liking it i want the majority of people to buy our product to be thrilled with it so thrilled they're telling their friends hey this stuff really works this company's legit and then have them go well it's a lace spray worse Thank you.
people to buy our product to be thrilled with it so thrilled they're telling their friends hey this stuff really works this company's legit and then have them go well the lace spray works great how about the lube's all the lube's work great how about this i really want people to feel a comfort level with us i really want people and all of our products come with a six month or excuse me a 60 day money back guarantee for no questions asked and that one of these ones where, you know, we charge you $9.95 for shipping, and then if you don't like the product, we charge you $9.95 to send it back.
One of the reasons we're successful is we have free shipping, okay? When you buy something from our site, you pay zero to have it shipped to you. And if you decide you don't like it and you want money, but you get your money back and you don't have to send anything back. So it truly is no risk to you. You're out of pocket zero. So people go, wow, that's expensive. I go, no, because very few people are unsatisfied. But B, that gives people the confidence to pull the trigger and go, let me try this. There's no risk involved on my part.
And people go, you must be pretty confident, you know, to do that. And I go, we're very confident because our history shows us the majority of people that buy our products like our products and continue to use them. But now we have multiple products. So we can grow two ways. Number one, finding more people to use a specific product.
Number two, more products but it's all about education it's all about getting someone to go that can enhance this part of my love making that could help me make this part of my love making better so it's extremely important for us to continue to reach out and find more people that's why people like you are ideal for us because i can tell by the questions you ask the way you go about it you're educating your audience and you care about your audience and so i guarantee you your customer engagement is high and the people that you know log on don't listen for two minutes they listen to the podcast and they go these people are legitimate and that's the kind of people we love exposure with well we appreciate that and we'll definitely we'll have all the links to uh your products in our show notes if if people want to find you um you know have a safe trip uh good luck on your case and me and lacy i know we'll be uh posted during the.
Let's do this again later in the fall. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, you'll have to come back and update us on how everything. I will do that. And I can't thank you enough for having me on. I really appreciate it. Of course. Appreciate it. Okay. So I think with that, folks, in a world full of apples. Be the pineapple. Be the pineapple, guys. Bye. Bye. If you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us, leave a five-star review wherever you're listening. If you want to see more of our content, you can find links to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, OnlyFans, and more in the show notes.
Come join the conversation with us and other Swinger content creators on our Swinger Society Discord server. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at theswingnation at gmail.com. Make sure you head on over to theswingnation.net and keep up to date on all things Swing Nation. We thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time. Goodbye.
