Send us Fan MailThe Swing Nation PodcastLifestyle Interview: Advocating for the Non-Monogamous Lifestyle | Episode 86In this swinger podcast episode, Dan and Lacy interview Co-founder and Executive Director Brett Chamberlin of OPEN (Organization for Polyamory and Ethical Non-monogamy). OPEN is a non-profit organization dedicated to normalizing and empowering non-monogamous individuals, relationships, and communities through organizing legislative campaigns. Learn how you can support a movement where romantic and intimate relationships between consenting adults are accepted and protected by law in this episode of The Swing Nation Podcast! OPEN (Organization for Polyamory and Ethical Non-monogamy)OPEN s Annual Non-monogamy Community Survey- Please vote us for the ASN Awards in the following categories:BEST CONTENT CREATORLACY - SWING NATIONBEST EDUCATORLACY - SWING NATIONBEST SUPPORTING BUSINESSSWING NATIONBEST ENTERTAINMENT PODCASTSWING NATIONBEST SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCERLACY - SWING NATIONBEST EDUCATOR WEBSITELACY - SWING NATIONASN Awards- The Swing Nation - Main Website Quick Navigation Website: -- (Find all our social media links more!) Follow us on Facebook! The Podcast Website- Swinger Society - Our Website to meet, connect events Swinger Society Discord Our Facebook Group- Swinger Websites - SDCUsername: TheSwingNation** Use code 36313 for 14 days free! ** SLSUsername: NorthernGuynSouthernGirl- Merch More - The Swing Nation Merch The Swinger Pride Flags Swinger Society Merch- Lacy’s Fun Links - VIP OnlyFans PREMIUM OnlyFans -- THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS -- Shameless Care: ED Medication and at home STD testingUse Code TSN at checkout for $30 off your order!Promescent® Make Love Longer, It’s Time for Great SexUse Code SwingNation for 5% off!Support the show- Thank you for the support! -
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This podcast is intended for adult audiences. Over the age of 18, it contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to us, and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice. Welcome to the Swing Nation podcast, a podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle.
Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe, interview the experts, learn and grow together. Join the nation. Lacey, we get approached by couples all the time and they want to know, like, where can they learn the one-on-ones of non-monogamy? Yeah, I totally get it. You want to get in the lifestyle, but you just don't know where to start.
We recommend Sex by Sue's class on non-monogamy yeah i totally get it you want to get in the lifestyle but you just don't know where to start we recommend sex by sue's class on non-monogamy she really helps couples learn how to communicate and do the lifestyle the correct way yeah i think this lifestyle you know it's crucial not to to step on the landmines that a lot of us do yeah and you kind of learn the hard way you know so having a class can take online, you know, in the privacy of your own home and kind of learn the ins and outs, learn, you know, how to approach the lifestyle, how to communicate with your partner about it.
You know, I think it's something worth taking and we highly recommend it. Yeah. So click below in the show notes. You'll find this link for that course. Check it out, guys. Bye. Most people have unprotected oral sex, right? Be honest. Now think about your last STD test. Did your doctor tickle your throat with something that looked like a giant Q-tip? Probably not. Yet that's the only way to check for oral gonorrhea or chlamydia, which are often asymptomatic. You need a better doctor. You need shamelesscare.com. Use coupon code TSN at checkout.
So Lacey, people are asking, how do they get to go to a party or an event with us? They check out swingersociety.net. You create a profile, you sign up for an event, and you come hang out with us. Super easy. easy that's right if you want to party with us and the other faces and names that you know from social media and tiktok head on over to swingersociety.net can't wait to see you there hey there pineapple people and welcome to the swing nation Nation podcast. We are your hosts, Northern Guy and Southern Girl. And today we have a very special episode for you.
We are sitting down with Brett, who is the, I guess the CEO would be the right term of OPEN, which is a organization that's advocating for non-monogamy. Now, did I say that right, Brett? That's right. I'm the executive director and co-founder of OPEN, which is the organization for polyamory and ethical non-monogamy. Awesome. I figured I'd let you say it that way. I didn't mess it up. It's better. But we're so happy to have you here. So if you guys don't know OPEN, it's actually a fairly new organization. You guys have been around, what, for about a year now, Brett? That's right.
This past Friday, March 31st, as of date of recording, was our one-year anniversary. We are a new organization, but we're really thrilled to be hopefully bringing something new to the movement and really stepping up to fight for non-monogamy acceptance and political rights. That's awesome. Yeah. We've had a few conversations with Brett now and one of the things that stands out to me about open as opposed to, you know, Woodhull or some of the other organizations that are out there, which those are all great organizations and we support a lot, but they, they have a lot on their plate.
You know, they're, they're fighting for essentially sexual freedom, which encompasses all kinds of groups and communities where open seems to be focused solely on non-monogamy, which I think gives you, you know, which ties closely to our community and kind of gives you an advantage to kind of get into some of the nitty gritty and the things that non-monogamous people are facing out there that some of these other communities may not have to deal with.
Yeah, OPEN definitely stands on the shoulders of giants of organizations like Woodhole and many movements for sexual liberation and expression that have come before us. But as you know, we're really narrowly focused on the experience of non-monogamous individuals. Now I say narrowly, but non-monogamy is actually a huge population group. I think people underestimate because it's so hidden. But a number of studies have found that about 5% of American adults are currently in a non-monogamous relationship. And one in five adults will at some point in their life be in a non-monogamous relationship.
That number is actually clicking up. It's starting to get closer to one in four American adults. So this is a huge population. We're talking about 10 million American adults. And we think it's about time that there was a nonprofit really dedicated to advancing the interests of this community.
Well, I tell you, me and Lacey probably could not agree with that statement anymore and i think it is true you know people don't realize you know we identify as swingers but then you have the polyamorous community and there's even you know there's several people out there that don't even like a label or don't have a label but you know they're somebody you know their wife has a girlfriend or they you know they have a guy that they bring around or is you know you know they don't maybe label it as poly as polyamory or swinging, but they, you know, they have somebody that they're that is part of their relationship.
So, yeah, I 100% think you're right. All right. So I think where we want to start and where we like to start with most people that come on the Swing Nation podcast is we want to get to know you a little bit. So Open's a great organization. We're going to learn all about that. But I think first we want to learn a little bit about Brett. So anything you're comfortable sharing with us, where you're from, some of your background, we'd be happy to hear that. Yes, I was born and raised in New England, went to college in New York City.
And activism and political organizing really has been one of the main through lines of my life. I moved out to the Bay Area of California in 2016, which is where I still live for a a job at a non-profit in the environmental sector, which is really where I had built most of my career. I got focused in on doing zero-waste organizing, so a lot of work around litter and pollution and plastic pollution. But it was when I moved to the Bay Area of California that I got integrated into the polyamorous and broader non-monogamous and the sex positive community here in the Bay Area.
Those are obviously like slightly distinct domains, but particularly here in the Bay Area, they're very overlapping. So I just want to name that up front and started to experience really kind of deep personal transformation and growth. And it's where I found really my community. And through that, I started having more conversations with leaders in this space, with community leaders and mentors and other advocates and activists about the need for more political organizing in this space.
So in the end of 2021, I made a really one of those like big life decision moments where I decided to to jump ship to leave the comfort and salary of my nonprofit career where I had spent really the last 10 years and try and start something new. And it's been a really exciting and rewarding project that has really been deeply fulfilling. And it feels like the culmination of really a lifetime spent kind of honing the skills of, of advocacy and organizing. Yeah. You know, that's interesting to me that you, you know, you've, you've obviously been in advocacy for a long time now.
Um, and you say when you moved to California, you, you kind of found this community. So do you identify as polyamorous or non-monogamous? Um, do you have partners in that, in that space? If you're comfortable sharing with that, I'd be curious. Yeah. Yeah. By all means. So I, you know, it's interesting. I think back now to when I was living on the East coast in, in New York city and like, of course there is a non-monogamous scene, you know, everywhere. It was as we know, but I just, I didn't have access to it.
Um, and I wonder now, like if you had asked me about polyamory when I was living in New York in 2014, 15, what I would have said, because it wasn't on my radar. It wasn't something I really knew I was looking for. And when I found myself in California, I was in my mid-20s and I was kind of just casually dating. I wasn't really looking to settle down, but I also, I just didn't have the vocabulary.
I didn't have that sort of sort of framework to know that like, wait a minute, there's, there's a way that you can do this and to be integrated in a community of people that are kind of interested in practicing the same thing. But I found myself with a roommate who was polyamorous. And through that, I got this incredible front row view into how non-monogamous communities and relationships can actually operate. And I got to see the beautiful intentionality and the chosen family that their pod represented and just how much fun and joy they're able to experience.
And as I say, the intentionality, the sets of real deliberate skills and practices that they were able to bring to BOR. And it really caused me to reflect a lot on, on my relationships and what I wanted from relationships and how I was approaching relationships. Cause I think we don't really teach people how to be in relationship, right? Like you learn it all from watching and hopefully you have, you know, good role models in your life. And hopefully you watch the rom-coms or read the romance novels that are, you know, healthy and aligned and don't perpetuate really harmful myths or practices.
But unfortunately, that's not the case for a lot of people. And so in sort of starting to get a glimpse into poly communities, I really recognized that it was not just about, you know, dating multiple people. It was also just about human relationship and human connection in any of its form. So that's how I got kind of plugged in, started going to the right parties, meeting some of the right people. Before you knew it, I found myself in a polyamorous relationship, or I should say in polyamorous relationships. So that's how I identify now.
But what's interesting is that when we were kind of talking in our pre-tape the other week, I was naming that right now I have one partner and we have other kind of playful relationships. We go to play parties together. And I think you said, Dan, that sounds a lot like the lifestyle, right? And so I think what that highlights is that like, you know, the labels are helpful, right? And like they should always be descriptive and not prescriptive. But I think it points to the fact that like it is a spectrum for many people. There's a lot of different ways of doing it.
The way that people will do non-monogamy can really change over the course of your life and your relationships. And I think what's really important is just the core set of values, the focus on consent, on communication, on authentic connection, on pleasure that really unites all of these practices. Yeah, no, you're right. So in our pre-tape interview, we kind of talked about some of this stuff. And one of the things that came up was you had a primary partner.
And I think you described what you just said is you guys essentially had other play partners and went to play parties, and I'm like, wait a minute, that's what me and Lacey do. That's literally the same kind of way. We have a primary partner, and we swing. We go to parties, and we interact with other people. And so it is funny. I think the difference between polyamory and swinger might not be as big as we think. It's funny, we have people that identify as swingers, but they have girlfriends, you know what I mean? and some of them have maybe lived with somebody, you know.
So I think it's funny we have people that identify swingers but they have girlfriends you know i mean and some of them have maybe live with somebody you know so i think it's it's similar communities and there's a lot of intermingling there and i don't know maybe we shouldn't focus so much on the term and and what the word is that you use to describe it because really it's just everybody's has some form of multiple relationships it's just varying degrees of commitment and and different things.
different things well and i think the new generation is not so much focused on labels and the terms we found that younger people don't say swinger they don't say poly they just they're just enjoying their life right so i think that i kind of like that right like that we're moving away from these like terms because Because I think once you put a term to it, then there's certain expectations that you have to live within the confines of what that term means. And I can see not wanting to put yourself in a box and be labeled with one of those terms. Yeah, exactly.
You know, I think that our long, long-term goal, and this is like, you know, speculo and kind of theoretical, I guess, but like the long-term goal is that we should not need to use labels like monogamous or swinger or polyamorous or certainly like consensually non-monogamous, right? Which is just, it's a mouthful and it sounds pretty clinical. And of course, as many people have observed, it defines non-monogamy in opposition to monogamy, right? It defines it as what it is not, which, you know, fundamentally still anchors it, therefore, in the kind of mainstream monogamous practice.
So the goal is we get to a future where we don't need to worry about the labels. We don't need to worry about what people call what they're doing. We can just be in relationship with other human beings. And as long as it's consensual and girded by communication and authentic connection and compassion and care, there's space for people to pursue the relationships that are most rewarding to them. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think we've seen that in other movements in other communities, right? Where they, they start to try to, you know, I don't fit that label.
So I'm going to, you know, here's my label. And then before you know it, there's a hundred different labels and nobody knows what anybody is, you know, like it just, it just confuses everything a little bit more. So, uh, yeah, I think it's going to be a challenge. And I, I don't know, I think we're going to go through that same, I think we'll make up a bunch of different labels and we'll decide labels are too much and we'll get rid of them. And it'll just be an ebb and flow, I think, uh, of our community.
But I think the important part behind all of that is that there's, there's starting to be more conversations around, around it. Cause let's be honest, non-monogamy is not in, like you said, I hate that term because non-monogamy saying I'm not monogamous, meaning I'm not normal. I'm something other than normal. I personally don't even like that term, but you mentioned that as well. Um, but I think, you know, the more we talk about it, the, you know, the more open it is because it's not something new.
This is something that's been going on since, you know, you can go all the way back to the Romans and probably even further back than that. So we are not the first generation of people to engage in this. But I think we are trying to push it to be more acceptable. I totally agree. And that's a really important point, right? Non-monogamy is not something new. I think that many people think of it as something that, you know, young blue haired people from California and New York City are taking on.
And what's really important to realize is that, first of all, even in the sort of modern era in the U.S., like the swinger lifestyle and various forms of open relationships have been the norm for a while. And if you widen the scope and look back through all of human history, non-monogamy has been as much the default for many cultures and many communities throughout time, more so than monogamy.
And it really is a sort of modern invention and imposition of the sort of influence of the Christian era and then later of Victorian morality that has imposed monogamy as the default and as a socially and now legally enforced norm that is privileged and prioritized within the way that our society is structured. Even that, I think, interestingly, is like a bit of a mirage, right? So if you look back at the Victorian era, marriage, monogamous marriage was as much of a social, a political, and an economic construction and having a, oh, what's the word?
I guess i mean i guess your girlfriend on the side uh right yeah what are they combat what's the word they use for that i think a concubine would be like more of a more of a sex worker as we call it now okay um but yeah let's just say your your side boo right to use modern vernacular um and so even then so like the i think that the prescription that monogamy is like a completely rigid and, you know, like the, the ultimate ideal of romantic relationships and not just that, but the pinnacle of relationships of any type, right?
That like your monogamous romantic partner is more important than your friendships or your family or your chosen family or the community of which you find yourselves a part. That's, That's a modern construction. And as I say, it's a bit of a mirage. Most kids in America right now don't live in a nuclear family with married parents with their kids in their first marriage.
So this sort of model of the white picket fences and the parents with two and a half kids it was always kind of an artifice and it just it doesn't fit anymore yeah no i agree and i it is interesting that we i think we all grew i mean lacy's talked about that several times is that she felt like she you know if she if she failed at that if she didn't get a husband and have kids and get you know have a house and a white picket fence and a dog and two and a half kids like everything you're saying you almost feel like you're a failure.
Cause that was, that's the expectation that's put on you since you're, you were a child. Um, and so we're all kind of hesitant to break outside of that because it's like, well, I don't want to fail at that. That's, that's the expectation that's been put on me. And in some ways you look around and you see other people, you know, at kids' baseball games or whatever,'re like, they're doing so good. It seems to be working for them. They seem to be happy. Why can't I be happy in this? And you kind of have this internal struggle of like, am I doing something wrong that I'm not happy?
And I know, you know, I was in a 13 year marriage in monogamy and I very much felt like a failure. Like I was doing like, there's something, it must be something wrong with me that I have these desires that I have these wants.
You it's much dan's broken like there's something inside of me that's not being right um you know and i turned to several different you know avenues to try to see if i could fix that or if there's some way of remedying that and then at some point you know after getting divorced i was just like well that's just not me like it's just not me and i guess i just have to accept that and i think a lot of people um have those struggles and have kind of battles with themselves. They, they want to fit inside that box that kind of society has told them they should be in. Yeah, without a doubt.
Um, I think that interestingly, like the evidence of, of cheating really speaks to the fact that in, in many ways, I think the prescribed norm of monogamy like does not work for a lot of people and cheating is kind of like you can think of it as the pressure valve right it's like we're all that that pressure of people trying to fit into this model that they think they're supposed to live it's where that pressure gets released and unfortunately because people don't have as much access to knowing that non-monogamy is an option and the tools to practice it well unfortunately that gets expressed in a way that is really harmful and non-consensual and can cause a lot of damage and harm to people All right.
Let's go. that non-monogamy is an option and the tools to practice it well, unfortunately, that gets expressed in a way that is really harmful and non-consensual and can cause a lot of damage and harm to people. So to put some numbers to that, 33% of Americans say that they have cheated in a monogamous relationship and 12% reported that they were cheating on their current partner. And that should tell you something, right? Like imagine if you went up to a hospital, right?
And they're like, yeah, you know, 33% of surgeons here have gone into the operating room drunk and 12% of them are drunk right now. You'd say something is wrong with that hospital. And so that's just like one point of evidence that something might be wrong with the way that we are forcing monogamy on everyone. And to be clear, I do not want to say that something is fundamentally wrong with monogamy, right? Like we're not trying to do the trope of saying everybody needs to be non-monogamous and polyamorous or a swinger or whatnot, but everyone should have the choice.
Everyone should have the option and we should acknowledge and address the really toxic expressions of monogamy that, you know, glamorize jealousy and possessiveness and so on.
no no i i couldn't agree with that more and i don't think we talk about you know all that much you know i mean like and several people you know i've had that conversation with uh with john and jackie from uh clubs and stuff like that and you know because we kind of sat around you know we sat around before and said well how do we change the culture right like how do we get people to accept swingers right and and that that's really all we want.
Like, me and Lacey, we're not trying to, you know, have America change to a non-monogamous society where there's, you know, swinger parties and sex parties all over. You know, like, that's not, I don't think that's what we're pushing for. Basically, what we want is leave us alone. Like, I should not, nobody that's non-monogamous should have to, you know, live in fear of being outed and being fired and losing their children, right? That's what we're talking about, right?
That we should just, you should be able to accept people that are non-monogamous without having to attack them or want to hurt them or want to change their, you know, sometimes somehow hurt, you know, their lives. And that's really the society that I feel like we live in right now. So if, you know, for most people, they don't dare, you know, be public about who they are or what they're engaging in because they fear real-life repercussions from that.
But to your point, I think to show people that this lifestyle isn't so bad, we have to have the conversations about why non-monogamy works and why in some relationships monogamy doesn't work. And you're saying you know if you start looking at statistics it's clear that something's broken with this white picket fence you know society structure that we're trying to push on everybody yeah yeah and as you note dan like it really is it's part of it is about like we just want to be able to do what we do without fear of recrimination without fear of losing our jobs losing of our kids.
And we'll talk more about that, I'm sure, in the back half here. There's also an aspect of keeping the door open, right? So it's about us as an existing population wanting to be able to do what we do. It is also about us wanting, recognizing that what we're doing is special and people have a right to experience this level of pleasure and connection and joy. So while we don't want to, you know, force or expect that everyone, you know, should live in this lifestyle, I think that many more people would really enjoy it.
And if we can build that bridge and say, you know, create more safety in this experience and also create pathways in for more people to get the chance to experience that, that is a really important expression of the work too. So when people have asked me like, what is it that Open wants to accomplish? What is the real point of what you're doing? Yes, absolutely. The first order is about protecting people from stigma and discrimination. It's about enforcing the right to be non-monogamous.
But I think the bigger picture is it's about giving the non-monogamous people, the monogamous people, access to what we're doing too. It's about the right to pleasure. No, and I agree. Because if we look at the ways that, especially swinging, but non-monogamy in general is represented to the culture.
If you watch movies about movies about swinging it's always about people cheating on their wives right it's always about people getting divorced it always has this kind of gross cheating subculture to it you know i mean and and i think that's the wrong way to represent our community and i think what you're saying is yeah we have to shine we have to show what this community is really about because there's not a lot of positive reinforcement out there. There's not a lot of positive information out there being shared in the current culture. Right, right. Yeah.
It's amazing how common I think we read those articles. It feels like every other article about non-monogamy is this couple's marriage was on the rocks and so they decided to try polyamory. And, you know, the relationship didn't last, but now they're polyamorous. There's a fabulous researcher and communicator around non-monogamy, Dr. Eli Sheff, who calls this the relationship-broken, add-more-people model, which is a really problematic way to approach non-monogamy.
But I think it does evidence the fact that we need more affirmative affirmative constructive like positive depictions of what non-monogamy is actually all about that is not fundamentally grounded in monogamy oh yeah and i don't know how many swinger articles i've read that has to do with stds like oh yeah constantly you know i mean like oh this community in florida and oh florida's std rates are high and then you you read in the notes at the bottom they're like well actually the counties surrounding this community are some of the lowest sti rates in the state and it's like well then why did you write an entire article about how the this community swingers and the the statistics on stis in the state have gone up if the communities you know if the the counties around the community have some of the lowest rates like that makes no sense you just shot a hole in your entire article but for some reason you still publish this article like it's beyond infuriating to me when i read things like that you know yeah there was a web md article that i like uh kind of clapped back on on twitter that repeated a number of those those myths the one of them being about you know higher rates of stds among non-monogamous populations due to the more sexual partners, which is a total myth.
If you look at the actual data, non-monogamous individuals are far more likely to have conversations about sexual health and sexual health risk reduction and to implement strategies for risk reduction. So it's kind of baked into the formula. And then this very same article cited higher rates of anxiety and depression among non-monogamous people, which is true, and theorized that it was due to the complexity of having to navigate multiple partners, which is just like gross speculation.
If you look at the actual academic research on this, the higher rates of anxiety and depression is a result of something we call minority stress. So this is if you're part of a minority population that experiences stigma and discrimination, such as, for example, the myth that people have higher rates of STDs that this very article is perpetuating, then of course you will have higher rates of anxiety and depression. And this is WebMD, right? Like, you know, I'm sure there's doctors that are like, well, of course, WebMD is not going to be good.
But like, it is a publication that presents itself as being somewhat empirical. And there they are just throwing out just like the most gross, obvious obvious, easy to debunk in five minutes with a Google search myth. It's really frustrating. And I think, again, it points to the need for an organization like Open to be out there clapping back, publishing data, and helping to lead communication to change the conversation.
Because that's how it has like we just we have to change the conversation and that happens like one rebuttal one reply one resource at a time yeah well you'll have to start forwarding those you'll have to start forwarding those to me when you see them too because i'd be happy to leave a comment on on all those articles as well let's do it but you know like just what you said yeah weird uh a um you a community that has to worry about, worry about getting fired from their job if they get found out that they're in the community has a higher rate of anxiety. Like, of course. Yeah.
But that's funny. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. So there's so much to talk about.
I mean, this, this community, um, so I guess, you know, to kind of sum up some of this first part, where do you think we're going what what's you know are we are we moving in the right direction you know it seems to me you know me and lacy have really only been public in this space for about about two years now um you know and if we look at our journey from you know just tiktok had you know when we started posting swinger videos on tiktok it had probably less than a hundred thousand views on that swing talk hashtag that we use you know now it has almost like it's like two and a half close to three billion views on that hashtag so like clearly there's interest in this subject clearly um the country is interested in non-monogamy as a whole um but what direction do you think we're headed in as far as that goes yeah so something's happening here for for sure we are starting to see a massive surge in interest in non-monogamy that's borne out by a number of different studies that have really shown huge attention in this space.
I think creators like yourself are also observing and experiencing that you just see this exponential growth in people that are interested in the topic. And resultingly, we are starting to see attitudes shift. There's been some kind of longitudinal poll data. YouGov, which is a polling firm, has done a couple really interesting non-monogamy polls in 2016, 2020, 2023. And in that, we're starting to see more people expressing that their preferred relationship structure would be non-monogamy.
Over a third of people that responded in the 2023 poll said that their ideal relationship is something other than complete monogamy. You're seeing the percentage of people that say that they think that polyamory and non-monogamy is fundamentally unethical is starting to drop. Unfortunately, it's still about 50% of respondents that think that it's unethical. So we have a lot of work to do. And you're starting to see more, I think, articulation of a political vision of efforts to really convene a movement to start being active for rights.
So again, we can talk more about this in the back half, but just to kind of give one example, last, well, two weeks ago now, four weeks ago when this came out, in March, how about I say that? We'll just ground it. March 2023, we saw the city of Somerville, Massachusetts pass the very first non-discrimination protections on the basis of family and relationship structure. So again, that's the first explicit protections for non-monogamy, i.e. relationship structure, anywhere in the U.S. So this prevents people from being fired, from being subjected to biased policing, denied city services.
There's also a housing bill also in committees that would protect people from eviction. And, you know, I think this points to the fact that we've reached this critical mass moment. The cultural norms around it are starting to shift. People are seeing more examples of it. They might even see it in their own lives. It is being demystified. It's being de-stigmatized. And now we are organizing concretely to start winning rights, to start winning protections so that we have more freedom to be more visible and more open. And from there, it's just like a positive feedback cycle, right?
So like, as more people can be open without worried, being worried about losing their job, then more people can come out, they can start connecting with one another. And then from there, they can continue to organize for more protections, which creates more visibility and more protections and so on and so forth. So, you know, I think that we're going to see something to what we saw in like the gay rights movement. If back to the year 2000 to the year 2020, a relatively short period of time, complete transformation in people's experiences.
And so I think that we'll see something pretty similar within the non-monogamy space over the coming decade. That's awesome. I think that's the perfect segue to take a break and hear from the partners and sponsors of the Swing Nation podcast. And then I think when we get back, I want to dive deeper into open what you guys are doing, how our community can help you, the types of things that we need from community members out there to kind of push all this stuff forward and do a kind of a deep dive into that.
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Make sure you join the Swing Nation SDC group and send us a message. All right, guys, welcome back. We're still here with Brett. He's still here. He survived the commercials. Welcome back, Brett. We're happy to have you. All right, so I think on this side of the commercial break, I want to talk about Open, right, which is your organization. Can you just give us, I guess, the broad strokes on what this organization is and what you guys are trying to do? Yeah, so Open is a 501c3 nonprofit organization.
We're based here in California, and our mission is to help normalize non-monogamy through advancing cultural acceptance, building political power, and supporting non-monogamous communities and leaders. So really in the short term, what we want to do is help ensure that people are able to be open about their non-monogamous identity without facing stigma or discrimination. That really emerges through cultural acceptance and through political protections. Right now, relationship status or relationship structure, i.e. non-monogamy or whatever relationship you practice, is not a protected category.
So your employer can fire you for being non-monogamous, totally within their rights. Your landlord can evict you for being, or can deny you housing, rather, for being non-monogamous. A judge can deny you custody of your kid for being non-monogamous, all totally above board. So that's the starting point, is that we just have to guarantee political protections, the right to be in a consensual relationship without being subject to discrimination for it. And as I mentioned before the break, the cultural acceptance, cultural visibility is a really important, it's the other half of that, right?
So those two interventions really feed back into one another. Yeah. And that's, you know, so again, me and Lacey have been on this journey for about two years now where, you know, we've taken to social media and podcasting and really just talking about us and our relationship and telling stories about, you know, the different, you know, adventures we go on and vacations and swinger clubs and resorts and all that. And, you know, and we've been saying this entire time that I think our goals align up very much, you know, are essentially the same as what what you're saying opens are.
But the struggle I've always had is like like how like where do you start like what do you change like what is it it's a it's a rule it's a law it's a law where like do we have to lobby congress do we have to go down to our our local um you know city council and lobby there like how how do we affect change like how do how do you actually do that. And I think, um, because we don't have any kind of, um, advocacy background, you know, city council and lobby. Like, how do we affect change? Like, how do you actually do that?
And I think because we don't have any kind of advocacy background, you know, we've never done that for any community. I think, you know, the biggest challenge for us over the last two years has been like, how do we even get started in that? You know what I mean? How does it, what does that look like? And, you know, finding Woodhull and finding NCSF where I think were good steps for us.
And because I know they're doing a lot of things and we try to support them um i just don't know if we've really given clear steps to our community on what that even looks like yeah making change is hard right like we live in this complex complicated world there's a lot of issues there's a lot of things vying for your attention and vying for elected officials attention um there's some really important issues that we're discussing and tackling as a society. And creating a bit of space in the conversation for conversations about non-monogamy is really part of it. So where does that start?
Well, at OPEN, we have two parallel strategies that we've been pursuing. The first is public sector protections through legislation. And the second is private sector protections in the workplace, where, of course, Americans and adults spend a lot of their time. It's a really important part of many people's lives. In the public sector, we're working on advancing legal protections, protecting people from discrimination. So I mentioned before the break the law in Somerville, which articulated protections on the basis of family and relationship structure.
The relationship structure part encompasses non-monogamy. The family structure part is also really important and obviously kind of intersecting. So it protects not only multi-partner or multi-parent households, but also multi-generational households or blended families. Again, most families don't fit that nuclear family ideal. So these diverse family and relationship structures have intersecting issues that allow us to build a broader coalition for change. So we're working with another fabulous organization in the space called the Polyamory Legal Advocacy Coalition.
They are an expert-led group. They've got lawyers and really experienced advocates, and they have helped to draft some of this legislation. And then Open is working to connect with the base, right, and with other content creators and grassroots leaders to help advance some of this legislation. So it starts at the city level, working on expanding these protections in kind of favorable municipalities that are more open to this type of thing. And then from there, we can build momentum. You know, once the first city passes it, it's easier for the second city.
And then the third and the fourth city becomes kind of more normal, more mainstream. Then it's the thing that just, if you want it, you have to have in place, right? If you want your city to be kind of on the map from there, we can build momentum towards statewide protections. And then, you know, down the line, you know, three, five, 10 years, explicit federal protections from discrimination. So that's the public sector interventions.
And then the private sector interventions are about getting companies to pass similar non-discrimination hiring and employment protections so that it's easier to identify companies that you don't have to worry about being fired if it comes out that you're non-monogamous because companies recognize that this is an expression of diversity and they want to create environments where their employees can show up as their full and authentic selves.
And it's a competitive differentiator if the many talented non-monogamous professionals know that there's one employer versus another that is more inclusive and protective. So that's like a little bit of our sort of points of intervention, the kind of brass tacks of how we're going about kind of making change in the space. Okay. So I guess, you know, to follow up to all that. Okay. So I go to city council and I say, hey, you know, we're non-monogamous. We really feel like in your diversity, I assume there's some kind of diversity, you know, law or, or, you know, part of the city, you know, in.
we really feel like in your, your diversity, I assume there's some kind of diversity, you know, law or, or, you know, part of the city, you know, in there. And I said, okay, we want to change this and we want to include protections for non-monogamous people. And city council's like, yeah, okay, we agree with that. We support that. And so they, they write into their law that, you know, whatever housing camp, you know, people within their, their city can't discriminate against that. Okay.
So then I work at whatever, some company within that city and i get fired then what i can sue is that what that i can say hey you just this city this company works within this city and you're not following the city's laws and policies and i can i can then go and have a lawsuit is that like does that do i guess what i'm asking is if that law passed, is it really, is there any meat and potatoes behind it or is it just kind of the city trying to show that they're inclusive?
So I don't want to get like too, too into the weeds, but basically most cities have in their municipal codes, non-discrimination protections. It usually is kind of baked into the various, the various aspects of the city code, right? So in the housing section where they talk about housing rights and so on, there will be a non-discrimination policy there that already protects people on the basis of age, race, gender, religion, so on and so forth. And that's also in the policing section, in the city services section.
So usually it's a bundle of ordinances that update that to add family and relationship structure. Now, from there, yeah, if you get fired in a city that has explicit protections against employment discrimination, you then have a legal basis for a lawsuit to say this is a wrongful termination. You are legally prohibited from firing me on this basis. Now, I want to be really clear that a lot of this has not been court tested yet.
So while this legislation has been written by some like very, very smart people, folks from Harford Law's LGBTQ clinic who wrote the Somerville non-discrimination ordinance, it's likely that when we start to see court cases, that'll help us better understand how these can be applied. So, you know, I want to acknowledge that like this is a really early stage emerging movement, but I think it's going to start progressing pretty quickly. And it's a huge, that, that first step to establish the fact that like, no, this is something that we can protect people around in the legal code.
That's the really important thing, kind of breaking the seal as it were, breaking the dam. Right. No, that's, yeah, no, that's great.
I think that's, and I think that's maybe where I just didn't understand didn't understand how it all worked right like okay we can write this into the code but then what happens if somebody actually is discriminated against can you know and if yeah then you have a right to sue and go and then like you're saying well then it goes to the court and then the courts have to look at it and say okay is this actually legal and you know hopefully if we get enough support behind it you know we get a few courts to be like no actually yeah is something you can really protect against, and this community wants to do that, and it's legal to do so.
Then we have some concrete foundations we can stand on, and then, like you're saying, then bring those laws to a broader state and federal level. And this is really the playbook of what was, I think, originally called the Gay Liberation Movement, what we now call the LGBTQ movement. It was establishing legal rights. And then it was also advancing court cases when those rights were violated. So it goes hand in hand in our system. But what's exciting there is that we don't have to reinvent the wheel, right?
We can kind of follow this playbook that worked in a really, not just parallel, but very closely intersecting and overlapping space, right? Because the rates of non-monogamy are much higher among queer communities than among heterosexual individuals. So, you know, we, I think we have a high degree of confidence that like this has worked in frankly, like more marginalized and more maligned community, more, more maligned population. And so that gives us a high degree of confidence that the strategy can be really effective for non-monogamous folks too. No, no, I agree. Yeah.
And I think we've said that, you know, we've always kind of felt that, right. And like you're saying, I, you know, I really think the non-monogamous and the, and the LGBTQ plus community are aligned because the vast majority of the people I know in the, in the non-monogamous space, you know, especially women, and I think even more men than maybe are open about it, are bisexual and are part of that community, right? And a lot of, you know, people that I know that go to swingers clubs do it as a way to explore their sexuality.
And a lot of times that same sex, you know, interact with women if they're in a primary, you know, heterosexual relationship, you know, as a way to kind of explore their sexuality together as a partner, you know, I think those communities are so closely intertwined. So I think it's good that we can kind of look at what, what that community did and try to follow in the footsteps and hopefully get support from them. Um, I think that's, I think that's the right pathway. I, you know, I think that's, we just didn't know how to do it. I think is kind of where we're coming from.
Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned bi folks as well, bisexual folks. More than half of individuals that identify as LGBTQ of one variety or another, more than half identify as bisexual. So bisexual folks are like the majority of the LGBTQ population. And there's a kind of like obvious, obvious connection to non-monogamy, right? Like, if you like, you know, hooking up with men and women and non-binary people, then it kind of makes more sense to be non-monogamous and, like, not have to choose a side for the relationship.
I think that the queer liberation movement is also, like, it's all part of, like, the bigger, big-p big picture journey, right? That future vision that I articulated where anybody can pursue the intimate and romantic connections with any other consenting adult in whatever other structure or shape, be it the number of people, the genders of the people, the kinks you want to practice. As long as it's consensual, everybody should have a right to that without fear of stigma or discrimination. And so that's like the big project that we are all marching together towards. Yeah.
I mean, that's sexual freedom, right? That's what Woodhull and NCFF have been pushing for forever. It's just such a hard, you know, I guess it boggles my mind that there's anybody out there that really want to control that, All right. Like what you're saying, what consenting adults are doing in a bedroom or sex club or wherever, you know, what consenting adults are doing as far as how they're interacting with sex, why that's a concern to government or or employment or, you know, or ex spouses, you know, in how you are as a parent, I don't understand how you make that correlation at all.
Because the truth is everybody's doing some kinky stuff or something maybe you don't want your employer to know about in your bedroom, right? Like nobody wants to show their boss their browser history, right? Or their camera roll. Right, or their camera roll, right? Like it's not a secret here. We all know we're doing naughty stuff in our bedroom. It seems common sense to me to say that that's none of our employer's business or none of the government's business. Yeah. The point that like everyone's doing it is really interesting too.
And I provided some of the data earlier about how common non-monogamy is. There's also this concept called pluralistic ignorance. And this is the idea that if you're, if you're part of a minority group that is like non-visible, right? So like, you know, you can't see just from looking at somebody and know like, oh, they're a kink. Well, in some cases you can't tell that they're a kink, but for the most part, right? Like you pass somebody in the checkout aisle, like you don't know how many partners they have. You don't know what they did last Friday night.
And so it's very easy to think that you're the only one, right? Like you might think in my company of a thousand people, like I am the only non-monogamous person and it can feel really isolating. And that's why visibility is so, so important because once you start opening up and having these conversations and saying like, actually, this is part of who I am. Then the other person is like, holy shit, me too. Like I thought I was the only one. Oh, you thought you were the only one.
And that's when we start to realize that like, no, like we are a real population group, a real real constituency we're powerful and we have the capacity to organize for our rights like we don't have we don't have to take it anymore like we don't have to just put up with losing jobs having to hide who we are dealing with the stress and anxiety that comes from that we just we don't have to take it yeah no i that's that's such an important point and it is interesting to me because you know again we've you know throughout the year the last two years here we've actually had people within our own community come to us and say like what are you doing like the reason swinger is swinging is fun is because we don't talk about it like you know this is this is fight club like what you're you're violating the one-on-one rules of swinging by going out there and talking about this and some people haven't been said to us like well well, you're just doing it to get popular.
And it's like, well, if you had any idea of the type of emails and comments and things that we get, you know, the amount of death threats and whatever else we get on the daily basis, I don't think you'd come to us and say you're doing this to get popular, right? This is a very, um, not populous thing to do is go out and talk about being a swinger.
Um, but you know, I think what you're saying is the community as a whole needs to realize that there's a lot of us and we are powerful together, but if none of us talk about it, or if none of us work together, we're just going to keep getting pushed around and taking advantage of and, and discriminated against. Right. Yeah. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit too, in one of our previous conversations, Dan and Laceyacey, that, you know, I get the rule of like, no politics, right?
Like, I don't want to be at a play party and hear somebody talking about, you know, gun control or whatnot. I get that. But the thing is that, like, everything is political, you know, so if you are not actively organizing for your rights and protections, somebody else is organizing to take them away. Somebody else, as we have seen, particularly in recent years, some of the state legislators, somebody else is actively organizing to shut down the swinger clubs, right? Like this happened, right? Like we know about cabaret laws.
There's still anti-adultery laws on the books in like 20 states, for God's sakes.
So, you know, I get, you know, oh, it's kinky and secret and secret and hidden like sure like you can still be you know to somewhat use a term like in the closet like you don't have to open up but if we fail to take up space like if we fail to step into our power they're gonna come for us and then you know good luck having a good time you know it's it when when the swinger clubs get shut down like when it's illegal to to go to a play party oh you know we talked to john and jackie yeah we talked to john and jackie who own colette's clubs and they had a club in florida literally get raided like you know like swat teams came into the club raided the club and arrested people and it was on the news and everything oh yeah and it was some law that was on the books about you couldn't um uh what was it sex acts in public like and it's simulated sex acts in public with some law that was on the book in this city or whatever and they came in there and said because the people were dancing with each other they were simulating sex acts in public and that was that was what they that was the reason they used to raid this club which is like every you know and know, in the city there's hip hop and, you know, other clubs all over the place.
And it's like, if you don't think all these other clubs have people dancing and grinding on each other, you're crazy. You know what I mean? Like, but, but they were, you know, targeted, you know what I mean? So, you know, like you're saying that you have to, you have to protect yourself and if the community isn't going to do it for themselves, then they're going to get walked on.
And i think people are realizing that uh i know i know with just within our friend group the amount of people that um have that are dealing with custody cases that are dealing with um employment cases um you know it's it's a it's an epidemic i think within the community people are always shocked whenever i'm on like tiktok and we talk about people losing their jobs people are like wait you can lose your job for who you sleep with? And I'm like, yeah, you can. And people's always seem so shocked by that. They don't realize that that is actually a thing. Yeah.
And, you know, Dan, your point about the double standard too, is interesting in this context too. The point of like shutting down a swinger club when they're still, you know, regular strip clubs open.
And then so Lacey connecting that to your point about people losing their job for being non monogamous, you know, how many people have lost their job or, you know, been threatened with with pushback for being non monogamous, when had they got caught cheating in a monogamous relationship, it would have been like, Oh, well, you know, what will be boys or, you know, at least they were making an attempt at monogamy, right, is the common story. So it does point to the double standard that our culture has around, you know, it's not just about the sort of underlying act, right?
Like, it's not just about, you know, the sex or the clubs or the venues. It's about the sort of social and structural primacy of monogamy that we really need to take on. Well, and it's the stigma. It's the company's afraid that if it gets found out that they support somebody that's, that's a swinger, that that somehow that stigma then will be applied to the company as a whole. And people won't, won't, um, you know, use that company for services and it's going to affect their bottom line.
That's what the, to me, you know, the times we've experienced it, that's their biggest fear is like, Oh, if, if I don't fire you, then it's going to, you know, people are going to think I then support you and that, that this is some kind of a swinger, you know, whatever company. And then, then nobody's going to want a patron here. Which is, you know, I, I suppose there's a way in which I get it.
Cause like that because like that is that that is those still are the attitudes for much of the world i think what we are starting to see though is as i mentioned like there's 10 million adults that are america that are that are in a non-monogamous relationship right now i'd love to see companies start being like yeah we are like not just queer inclusive but swinger and lifestyle inclusive and poly inclusive and like i think that would start to earn them a lot of support and a lot of appreciation from people that identify that way. Right. Well, you know, you said the same thing 20 years ago.
I think you could have said the same thing about the gay community. And now there's so many companies out there that are advertising how pro and supportive they are that community. So hopefully we're headed in that same direction. I think so. Yeah. I mentioned some of the recent polling around attitudes around non-monogamy. I mentioned that 50% of people think that polyamory, and I think this is the same for other forms of non-monogamy. I think they asked about this as well. About 50% think that it's immoral.
That's about what the numbers were for gay relationships in 2005, less than 20 years ago.
So it is changing and it will only change faster and faster as we just create more space create more institutional power and increase our capacity to just like bring resources you know bring organizing capacity into the space okay so in these in these last 10 minutes kind of this interview there's you know i really want to talk about how the community um can help you right if there's people that are listening that are swingers or non-monogamous and they're like, man, I just, everything's Brett saying I'm, I'm behind this.
Um, you know, and they're kind of wondering what can we do to support this or what can we do to help with this? Um, what would you say to them? So to start with the thing you can do totally without open, even being in the picture, um, visibility, right? So to be clear, I don't want to encourage anybody to like open up about their identity if it is not safe for them to do so. You know, whether that's materially makes the material unsafe or losing their job or even just emotionally or socially unsafe.
But if you're in a position to do so to even have the conversation with one friend, that makes a huge difference. It speaks to the fact that we are a real population group with real interests and real experiences, and we have a right to be heard. We have a right to take up space. So visibility is a really important place to start. In advancing visibility, gathering data to better understand who the non-monogamous population is, what the identities and the experiences we hold, how common our experiences with stigma and discrimination. There's still not a ton of data around this.
To help advance that, OPEN is fielding a community survey. This is something we ran when we launched in 2022. We're running it again this year. We've worked with a couple of really fabulous researchers in this space to try and refine the data to make it useful in research contexts. And we think that this will really help advance our movement's understanding of people's experiences and help us better tell the story of the types of experiences that people are having.
So we'd really love to invite people to take that community survey, which they can do by visiting our website, which is open-love.org, open-love.org slash community survey. So take 10 minutes, tell us about your identities, tell us about your experiences, and this can help us better tell the story of the non-monogamous population and really just get our message, get our story, shine a light on our experiences, get it out there. Yeah. And you'll have access to that. Oops, sorry.
I was going to say you'll have access to that link in the show notes of this podcast episode and then we'll also share that across our socials and then within the discord server for anybody that's listening that's part of the discord and if you're not part of the discord get in there i don't know what you're waiting on but um so you'll have access to that link so definitely check the show notes and if you are non-monogamous please fill out that survey because like brett, without the data, without being able to show concrete information, that helps us so much when we go to organizations and say, hey, something needs to be done about this, right?
When we go to the city councils and things and say, hey, look, this is the amount of people that are probably, this percentage of population has probably exists in your city. You need to protect them. And we're here to try to help do that. That's exactly it. I'm glad you mentioned the discord too. Um, really I'm just super blown away by the energy and that, that number of people in the discord. And I'm just so grateful that open now has a room in the discord or a channel rather in the discord. So I'm there, uh, you can interact with me and my handle is 99 Brett.
So that's number nine, nine, B-R-E-T-. And check out the open-love room. And we're going to be doing a kind of a town hall. This is an opportunity for us to chat more with folks from the Swinger Society. Open really is about serving this movement. And so we want to hear from folks in your community about how we can best serve them and answer any questions they may have. So that will be on May 4th at 10 PM Eastern time, 7 PM Pacific standard. Uh, and we'd just really love to invite folks to jump in. So it'll be an audio conversation.
Uh, you'll hear from me there and it'll be an opportunity for folks to step up, ask their questions, share their experiences as well.
So that's another great way if folks are interested in connecting with open and just being part of this conversation yeah no and that's you know it's funny because we kind of started this whole discord thing almost on an accident because we just got kept get we got sick of being banned everywhere else and we're like well man if at least if we open up a discord channel and get you know some of our followers in there when we get banned we can like give them the new our next you know tick tock like that was kind of the whole basis of the start um and man i did not expect the the type of community that would come to discord and then um you know it's really become a community and there's community leaders and we have uh you know ambassadors and the different people that are volunteering in there and the amount of effort and time that they've put into building that community and keeping it running and keeping it a safe place for anybody know, any non-monogamous person to go and share ideas and kind of lean on each other.
Um, it's phenomenal. And I, I can't, I can't talk about discord enough. And definitely if you're a non-monogamous person and you're not part of discord on the Swinger Society discord server, server, go to our links and get signed up on there. Uh, if you're not familiar with discord, we do have a sort of society has a YouTube channel that will give you some tutorials. It can be a little bit, especially if you're not technology friendly, it can be a little bit of a learning curve. But I promise you, once you get it figured out, it'll be worth it because it's definitely a great community space.
And it's completely free. And it's free. Who doesn't love free? You mind if I plug a couple other open ways that people can plug in? No, plug all your things. We want to hear it. So I would love to invite folks to head to OPEN's website, open-love.org, to where you can just go a little deeper, learn a little bit more about our work, see some of the programs and resources that we've rolled out. We've got a great fact sheet about non-monogamy. So if you're opening up about your identity and people have questions, that's a great thing to send them.
Um, it's where people can also join our email list. It's where you can follow us on social media. We're on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. We're at open love org, all one word, open love org. And finally, it's where you can chip in. Is it okay if I make a little financial pitch? No, no, I agree. They need to chip in if they want to. Yeah, movements take resources, right? When it comes to passing the laws, like I mentioned, you've got to pay lawyers to come in and draft it because, as I mentioned, it's different for every city. You've got to get stickers and yard signs and so on.
So we would really appreciate your support if this is something you believe in, if you are interested in helping bring non-monogamy and the lifestyle kind of out of the margins and into the mainstream, your support will really, really help us do it. The website, again, is open-love.org. Come on over, take the community survey at open-love.org slash community survey, connect with us on social media, join our email list, and really hope that you can make it to the town hall that we're doing in the Swinger Society Discord.
Again, that's May 4th at 10 p.m eastern no that's great uh you know and i think another thing is as we start to advance this you know and i think you know me and you we had this conversation off off of the podcast you're like i don't know i feel something like something is happening here right like there is a movement starting like i you know and i think i think we can acknowledge that at this point. I think at some point we're a little afraid to even say that out loud because we didn't want to jinx it, you know what I mean? But I think at this point we can say it out loud. It's okay.
But as I think this starts to happen, we're going to need people to go to their city halls and propose this legislation. We're going to need people if there's a lawsuit to show up to court and stand you know, stand outside with signs and say, this is bullshit. Like, you know, they, they should not have been fired. There, there is a law that protects them. Um, you know, that's how movements happen, right? That's unique. We need, we need people, we need support. We need the community to show up when they need to show up. Um, and I think, I think all that's important.
And I think there's people listening out here that, that want to participate in that and want to be part of that um and so definitely you know go sign up for the email list uh join the discord you know follow us on social media follow open on social media um because we can't organize unless we have a place to reach out and touch you and talk to you and let you know everything that's going on so I think that's so important and I'm I'm glad we've got to connect with you Brett I know we've kind of we've seen you in the last year and we've kind of been dancing around you and we're like, Oh, we really need to talk to him.
So I'm glad our schedules lined up and we've got an opportunity to do this. And, um, I'm excited about the, what's going to come out of all this. Uh, and I, I don't think, I think it's gonna be some big stuff. I really do. So what you're saying, Dan, is that you saw me from across the bar and thought I looked interesting. I did about a year ago, almost. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, I really appreciate what you are doing. You know, I think these, these are the conversations. These are the moments, right. That like, we're, we're building the connections.
We're like starting to have these conversations to build our power. So like, if you're out there, you like, yes, yes, you listening to this podcast right now. And like, you're a city council member that, you know, there's a city council member that comes to your parties, or you have a metamor who's, who's an elected official or a company leader. Like now's the time, like step up, like this is happening.
Um, so connect with open, we can help empower you, give you the resources, give you the support to pass the law in your city, to implement the policies in your company and to create a world, a more open and loving world, where it's safe to be non-monogamous, where it's safe to be in the lifestyle where everyone has access to pleasure and authentic connection. And, uh, I think we're close. I think it's right around the corner. I couldn't agree more. And I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and taking the time to do all this.
And really, uh, I appreciate you, you know, starting all this and taking that leap because I'm sure, like you said, you know, you know jumping from you know doing what you were doing and having a paycheck that you got every week and and you know feeling a little safe to to jumping and doing all this is you know that's a big leap and i you know i think me and lacy took a similar leap with with the podcast and our platforms and i see you doing it and i i give you know a lot of respect to you for doing that because it takes a lot to kind of put yourself out there and not knowing where it's going to go or what's going to happen.
So we need people like you that are willing to take that risk, kind of invest in the community so that we can really change things. Well, I appreciate that. I'm going to redirect it back to you, to you both. I really appreciate that you've done the same thing, that you've taken a leap, that you're helping to bring this conversation out into the mainstream.
And, you know, I'm so grateful for, as I say, like standing on the shoulders of giants, the people that have really done diligent work over the last couple of decades to create a pathway for me to find polyamory, you know, our incredible board of directors, that the donors that have made it possible for us to even make it to year one. So, you know, I'm proud and, I'm proud and privileged to be in a position to be doing this work. And, um, I'm just one part of this really exciting emerging movement. And like we, we are, we're out there, we're strong, we're mighty, we're getting bigger.
Uh, and I'm really glad that y'all are part of it too. Appreciate that. All right. Well, I think with that in a world full of apples, be the pineapple, be the pineapple guys bye if you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us leave a five-star review wherever you're listening if you want to see more of our content you can find links to snapchat twitter instagram only fans and more in the show notes. Come join the conversation with us and other Swinger content creators on our Swinger Society Discord server. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at theswingnation at gmail.com.
Make sure you head on over to theswingnation.net and keep up to date on all things Swing Nation. We thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time. Goodbye.
