Send us Fan MailThe Swing Nation PodcastLifestyle Education: We Talk Sex with Sue | Episode 26In this swinger podcast episode, Dan and Lacy talk with Sue McGarvie of Sex with Sue. Sue is a clinical sex and relationship therapist with expertise in the area of non-monogamy. She gives an insiders perspective on the swingers lifestyle, the struggles our community faces, and advice to those looking to start their lifestyle journey. Sex With Sue_______________- The Swing Nation -Main WebsiteQuick Navigation Website: -- (Find all our social media links more!)Follow us on Facebook!The Podcast Website_______________ - Swinger Society -Our Website to meet, connect eventsSwinger Society DiscordOur Facebook Group_______________ - Swinger Websites -SDCUsername: TheSwingNation** Use code 36313 for 14 days free! **SLSUsername: NorthernGuynSouthernGirl_______________ - Merch More -The Swing Nation MerchThe Swinger Pride FlagsSwinger Society Merch_______________ - Lacy’s Fun Links -VIP OnlyFansPREMIUM OnlyFans_______________ -- THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS --Shameless Care: ED Medication and at home STD testingUse Code TSN at checkout for $30 off your order!Promescent® Make Love Longer, It’s Time for Great SexUse Code SwingNation for 5% off!Pinaq Liqueur; The Official Drink of The Swing NationUse Code TSN at checkout for 15% off!Non-monogamy Couples Course and Single Guy Mastery CourseUse Code ATLANTA for 50% off!Support the show- Thank you for the support! -
Transcript
This podcast is intended for adult audiences. Over the age of 18, it contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to us, and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice. welcome to the swing nation, a podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle.
Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe, interview the experts, learn and grow together join the nation Hey there pineapple people and welcome to the swing nation podcast I'm your host northern guy and southern girl and today's episode.
We are honored To sit down with sue from sex with sue hello sue hi guys how are you uh she's coming to us live via via zoom which this is our this is our first our first time our first time yeah so we're zoom newbies so be be be kind with us if we have uh any technical difficulties yeah so we met sue um at secrets a few weeks ago yeah um we had the honor of having dinner with her it was a really nice dinner we're excited to have her yeah uh and so we'll let you uh we'll let her introduce herself and and tell um tell you about her herself so you want to start that with that sue just uh kind of who you are and what your background is?
Sure. My name is Sue McGarvey. I am a clinical sex and relationship therapist. I have been one for about 27 years. God damn it. I can't believe every time I say that, I'm like, oh, I'm so old. But I own the Sex with Sue brand. I had a radio show across North America in some of the biggest markets, Sex with Sue. And I started in the 90s doing phone-in radio. I was kind of the Canadian Dr. Ruth and doing a lot of sort of work in that area. I had, I was in private practice.
So I've been a clinical sex therapist in my office for that long, you know, seeing questions from, you know, any kind, you name it, you know, the, the crazy, the low libido, the fetish, the clinical sex therapist, I tell people I'm a shrink. So what I used to say is that non-monogamy was in the top 10 most common things I saw as a sex therapist. And it's in the last five years, it's become in the top three. People keep asking, they're like, so we want to open up our relationship. So they come into my office going, well, we had this experience.
And well, we were in the hot tub with another couple and and I had been to you know I'm a nudist like I'm a long I was the kid you couldn't keep clothes on I was in university going to nude beaches had been to every nude beach you name it I've been there and then was invited by Hedo to work for them for when they were still with super clubs for a number of like I was there for six weeks um and got to interview swingers from around the world morning noon and night I had coffee I had lunch with people they were looking for a sex therapist to be me naked and I'm like oh oh pick me so went there did this great you know I remember I was there when they had the Adam and Eve had their photo shoot you know and like you just you realize that that it's, you know, it's sex and you think, oh, my God.
So you had like six, eight weeks in Jamaica and continually talking to people to to find out what they were looking for in the lifestyle, why they were there, why they picked them. And then I did the same thing for desire. So I went to Desire Los Cabos, went to Temptations, went to Desire, like went all over the place. I've been to Cap Dag.
I've been to Hidden Beat to you said been to all of the clubs and the places and i had a television show that um i went across to the different swing clubs in canada in the u.s my biggest challenge was keeping my my camera crew out of corners with cougars but anyway that was a whole other discussion but having to you know talk to people about it and i was really convinced that it came into you know that what what was happening in the lifestyle was thirds right a third of the people are kind of you know there to check it out or just have a sexy atmosphere with their partner a third of the people there are going okay we've been talking for five minutes let's get a bed we're indiscriminate seniors we want to bang and a third of the people are hoping something's going to happen they want everybody all the planets to align you want to sacrifice a chicken and have a voodoo ritual everything needs to be perfect and then it that's that group but they don't know what they're looking for they don't know how to start they don't they you know they've had some bad experiences some good experiences they don't know how to replicate that they don't have the modeling to do that so i spend a lot of time doing that and from secrets i'm actually a condo Secrets.
I've been there for the last four years. I love Florida. And was able to sit there. And, you know, and as somebody who's been in the lifestyle for 20 or 25 years, being able to sort of look at that and going, I've evolved. I started, you know, playing with couples and then played separately and played with women. Like, you know, you name it, you know, sort of that gamut.
And now at a point in my life where i can sort of sit back and go you know it evolves and and what does that mean for both me personally and professionally and so it allows me to to talk about it both in both of those wearing both of those hats because i literally without exaggeration have spoken to you know 25 000 people about sex right on the radio so it gives me a really good sense of where that line is. I call it the paradigm shift. Yeah, that's, I think your wealth of knowledge and experiences is, uh, I think rare in this, you know, as far as the people that we've encountered.
Um, and also I think very, very interesting. Um, I think, so you said that you, you personally have been in the lifestyle. Like how did, how did you get into lifestyle? How did you get into, to, you know, becoming a sex therapist? Like how you just, from a young age, you were interested in that? Like how did that all start? I thought I was going to be a doctor. I thought I was going to deliver babies for a living and I flunked organic chemistry is really a true story.
So I kind of got sidetracked and didn't, you know, get into like the medical school that I wanted, because I couldn't pass organic chemistry. And so I thought so I ended up working, you know, deciding to go back and do graduate work in psychology. But I was at that point working for Planned Parenthood, and for something called the sex wise info line back before you had, you know, all kinds of internet sex, and internet information and answering questions about it. And I was the person I was just really nonplussed about sex, I could just talk about it, it was really easy for me.
And I was really fascinated, I tell people I got stopped at the male reproductive system and never left.
But you know, then worked as a doula, which helped deliver babies, I could, you know know work in that field and just knew there was this peace so um I really you know finished my work in terms of and I did my my thesis on the link between sex and relationship therapy how do you how do you do it what happens if you stop having sex how do you create intimacy with couples and it was it was at a time when there was like in my town of a million people there was like three sex therapists and I was really green and did a bunch of you know you know you just you learn and you figure it out and but I've been in practice for over 25 years and have sat with you know 30 couples a week or singles or men or women and talk about it so there's very little that I haven't heard and be that's going to shock me.
So I was doing that. And then I got, um, I got, I got asked to do a radio show and replace at that point, Sue Johansson, who's now in her late eighties. She was the one on Letterman. She had a show and she was, he was aging and I replaced her. Both happened to be Susan's by birth. It was a coincidence. And hers was the Sunday night sex show. And I had sex with Sue. So it was so I had there in be some confusion in the marketplace. But as she retired, I got her audience. And it was it was interesting how that evolved.
And I was able to be on radio talking to people about sex at a time when the you know, it's it's really quickly, you know, when you add porn, and you add add the internet and you add different kinds of mediums how quickly sex has changed but the need for really clear accurate information has not so do as much sex education as i do therapy because a lot of times people will come you know if i have a couple like you guys who are new or friends of yours who are going so i want to dip a toe you don't need.
You need information because you can't make an informed decision unless you have all the information. So I don't need to, you know, you don't need to be, you know, psychoanalyzed. What you need are clear tools. So that piece happened. I did a television show, a big national, Canadian national television series called Global, called Unzipped. And I, you know, went to different swing clubs. And certainly, at the time with my first husband was, you know, was was dabbling a little bit, had kids like you guys, you know, I always say it's an occupational hazard, you eventually get knocked up.
And then there's that time in the, in the little bit where you don't have kids. And you know, you have young kids, and you're not playing, or you're, you know, trying to deal with contraception.
And, you know know you know ah and then um and then kind of went back and and my marriage ended i got involved in a new relationship and knew from the beginning that this was going to be open he had been dabbling a little bit with his previous relationship and we got into that relationship knowing it was going to be open and i remember going the first time we went to temptations i was there um for conference at a different resort and we got a day pass to be open. And I remember going the first time we went to Temptations, I was there for a conference at a different resort.
And we got a day passed to Desire. Had a tour. I had, I was telling you this story. I had way too many pina coladas and was doing body shots off the bar and was like, oh my God, passed out in the cabana beds and met a couple. I think they were from Iowa.
And know and said look we're just new you know we're just dabbling we're a new relationship you know just want to do some sort of light touch let's be in the hot tub let's do some massage my partner goes to the bathroom and I immediately am double teamed by two the two the couple like she's on one corner he's on the other and they start groping me and I'm like whoa holy we have not talked about condoms we're not talking about boundaries like wait a minute my partner comes back she you know she starts working on him and immediately starts to like push him down on the bed and tries to mount him and and he's just immediately like he's like what the hell and and he loses his erection and we look at each other and we sprint out of there and I'm thinking I'm this really cool sex therapist, I can do this.
I, I, and I got played. So we, we had a very quiet drive back to the other hotel. And the next morning we open up our computer and say, okay, what are the rules? And there was a list of like 14, you know, we're always playing together in the same room and nobody can be drunk and, you know, no, don't take one for the team. And we don't, you know, we have to have, you know, issues around, you know, condoms and safety. Anyway, it's since evolved. So then we started to, you know, go online and you have some really bad coffees and then you meet people.
And at that point, I'm, I'm been, I'm tapped to do a bunch of, you know, conferences. I was doing a, I finished a book on G-Spot and I did another one on, on sexual health and I'd been speaking it.
And I went and spoke las vegas and you're just like holy like the people on the you know on the sibian with the all the girls are lifting up their skirts and just changing condoms right in front of you in the on the conference room floor and they're squirting all over the floor and there's like a lake anyway it's just you know cool things that you see and you go relax it's just sex right the hustler slogan relax it's just sex as long as it's safe and consensual how you choose to rub your genitals together is interesting to me i may not want to do that but it's interesting and so then went off to you said went to desire and went to hedo and went to you know i didn't at that point did you know my honeymoon at cap dag right which which is crazy it's the naked city in the south of france you guys got to get there and it it was unbelievable yeah i i'm reading on my kindle 10 o'clock in the morning you look up and there's eight guys jerking off around you you're like really you're in my son you know go away how long is he in french you're like i like beat off anyway and then you go to the club in the night and it's just like you're like german girls are taken like you're like really like can I look how how are you doing that like you've got five guys where and it's it's just that whole and I'm not easily shocked so you know went and did you know sort of looked at all that and you know my my own sexuality is really subtle it's it's I need to be friends with people I need you know like it has to all the you know i think that everything has to line up i don't do an indiscriminate sex it's just not my thing you know i've tried it it's it's i don't judge anybody for doing it it's i tend to be better with you know people that i know so out of that um eight years ago started this group because i kept saying there needs to be a group in the middle you know the group in the middle that i that I was saying the thirds that wasn't the beginning, that wasn't the end, the third in the middle.
And I kept saying, where's that group in the middle? Where's the group in the middle? And somebody said, Sue, you're the sex therapist. If you don't start it, who's going to? So I did. So I have this crazy group in the middle called the ducklings. So that's what we did. Yeah. And so do you want to explain the ducklings a little bit? Sure. What that's all about? Because I know we had, we talked a little bit about that when we were at Secrets. It's the group for people who are, I'm the bridge. You know, I'm like somebody's sister because I am. You know, somebody's mom.
Like I'm the bridge between, you know, wanting to jump in and go to a sex club and holy shit, there's people and they're pitting on me and I'm running out and i'm scared or people who who don't know where to start so the ducklings are the group between the crazy swingers in your parents bridge club they're people trying not to turn into your parents they are they are the ones i call it sexy but safe we're a community of people who are friends we have three rules no drama no mean people we kick actually actively kick out the mean girls and screen for kindness and no sexual aggression which means that if you think you're going to score on your first day maybe you will but most of the time you won't most of the time you need to get have people get to know you because safe people are sexy people and they need to feel safe with you and so we have a variety of different colors and levels so we have a level from one to five one would educational one.
We do, you know, some of the educational ones are edgy, but, you know, an educational event. Two would be like raunchy comedy. Going to a comedy club, it would be a little bit blue. You know, you'd maybe flirty, but it's, that's, that's it. You keep it on this side of the line. Three, we did tours of dominatrixes, of brothels.
We went to did, you know, prostate massage clinics clinics like things that are a little out there you can't talk about with your co-workers but it's still again on this side of the line you feel like you're observing you're watching a really interesting live documentary but you're not participating four means it's clothing optional like we've done you know lots of pool parties nude beaches it may not be overly sexual but it's naked a four plus means it's flirty and there's going to be some touch there's no dedicated play space my favorite story about that is is i said everybody be discreet you know the place had three bathrooms and for a while there's lineups outside the bathrooms because nobody can get into the bathrooms and i'm banging on the door they're like sue you told us to be discreet so they're all having sex in the bathroom i'm like okay okay new rule You know, outside the bathrooms because nobody can get into the bathrooms and i'm banging on the door they're like sue you told us to be discreet so they're all having sex in the bathroom i'm like okay okay new rule so um yeah so it's great and and the thing about it is that i know everybody like it's it's about a community and you have to have been screened in order to get in and this need to sort of screen stuff and we have some great guys that have been screened and and from that, I'm doing a new thing called Swinger Class, swingerclass.com, where we're actually training people, you know, the guys about basically not to be a dick.
And from that, because we needed to, we needed, and some of them are the unicorns, some of the unicorns, the women, oh my God, they're women. Like you gotta not be, you know, texting some other, some other woman's husband, like back off.
Like what is it, what's the etiqu etiquette about it and just stuff like mouthwash and put a towel between if you're gonna sit bare ass on somebody else's furniture and you know just the stuff that nobody tells you and pulls you aside and says you come across as desperate you need to fix this you come across as creepy here's what you need to do you're not but this is why so it's that piece and so the ducks do all kinds of crazy things we do this crazy travel we go all over the place kind of like you but we're not the ones at the bottom of the pile we're the ones that are having fun and some people play right and five means you're it's a full-on sex and we don't do a lot of those because there's so many places and clubs that do the hard lifestyle stuff and i'm happy to let them do it i think they do it better they're doing a lot more you know i don't want to be cleaning up used condoms that's not what i want to do yeah i don't want to be changing sheets not interested at all i want to fun plan fun sexy events and if people want to hook up after have at her um i want to be a place where we can just have a great time and have people who have your back.
So what I like about it is, like we had one guy had a heart attack, 14 people visited him in the hospital. We had somebody else, had somebody else who said he was new in town, and he had dental surgery, and he, you know, sort of drooling, bleeding in the taxi. And I'm like, what do you mean taxi? He's like, Sue, I'm new in town. I don't know anybody but my co-workers.
And I'm-workers i'm like well that's wrong and the next time he had to go i had somebody one of the ducks pick him up you know my hairdresser my realtor my hvac guy my you know real estate agent my accountant are all ducklings people who are in the community who are like-minded and and i'm finding that with lifestyle people i find other lifestyle people are the people that i hang out with. That's their game. They're great. They're kind. They're cool. Yeah. And so I think on that note, you know, you've been in this space for 20 plus years. You know, why is swinging still taboo?
Why is why are swingers still judged? Why is swinging still underground?
What are your thoughts on some of that think it's i think it's changing i think it's the way it was gay rights was 25 years ago i think in 25 years from now we're gonna be like yeah we're gonna be the pioneers and it's gonna all be great but it is still it is still anarchy for a lot of people it is the deep end of the pool people think oh my god you're going to be after my husband you know human nature is everybody asks about jealousy and and i do a whole when i do a non-monogamy workshop i do a whole sessions on jealousy you know hours of stuff and here's the workbook and here's the checklist and here's what you need to do and realize nobody ever died from feeling jealous and but everybody feels that threat that somebody that something that's theirs is going to um is going to be you know threatened by them and and i think that piece continues to um you know continues to happen and people feel really really uncomfortable with it but i think it's every time i see more stuff on you know netflix about you know open relationships it It may accurate you know because everybody's you know Ken and Barbies and you know I'm telling you I don't look like that everybody else doesn't look like that you get you know the good the bad and I can't believe you have testicles that big you know in you know I always say I always say an average group is you take it you know you take a bus and take everybody off the bus take their clothes off that's it you know like swingers are all shapes and sizes and ages.
They tend to be better, you know, more attractive than average because they have to, you know, they, they're looking to enhance and attract, but it doesn't mean you have to be perfect. And I, I think that every time you, every time that happens, it becomes more accessible.
I said, I'm, I'm standing up and applauding what you guys are doing and, and making normal it and there needs to be you know and there's some creepy people in this industry there really is i've met someone you're just like wow you guys are giving everybody a bad name we are yeah we need to be happy you know you know said people's moms and people's sisters and people's husbands and fathers and wait a minute we are real people wanting to have sex so I'm a bit of a hedonist. You know, it doesn't mean my mother's a minister. True story. My mother is a minister.
My parents are still wondering where they went wrong. They thought I was going to deliver babies. And so it doesn't make you, it doesn't make you wrong. And again, I spend my days as a sex therapist telling people they're not mutants or wrong or freaks to be feeling like this, right? 100 million years of evolution, we're only 2% different than grade eights in terms of our DNA, and they all live in harems. Like, get it, right?
If you want, you know, I've got all the books, you want to read about it, you can read the science, you can understand, but it is not a carte blanche to go out and, oh, I'm a swinger, which means I get to touch anything and everything. No. You actually have to be better at communication and better at consent and better at navigating what you and your partner need or understanding that it's not just a full on sex thing. And until you do, you're not going to do well.
And so I spend a lot of time with guys trying to get them – I have a whole series on how to get laid and how to get laid you know just because they're they're usually great guys but they're clueless as all get out and you have to two by four them to the side of the head and i so i spend a lot of times as the big sister two by fouring a lot of guys who want to get laid and how do you coach them through that and that's and then how do you talk to your partner how do you get women whose partner may be a little uncomfortable? You know, what do you do?
You know, you try to always do something to please your partner, but you never do something you really inherently hate. And how do you come across that? So that's the piece. Yeah, you know, you touching on the apes and all that. Do you think there are monogamous and non-monogamous people? Like, do you think that's an innate feature of people? Uh, you know, is this, are people born non-monogamous? Like how, what are your thoughts on non-monogamy and why some people, um, I guess are drawn to it and how other people are just completely against it?
I definitely think that some people are wired to non-monogamy my previous partner would describe um being monogamous as running a marathon with one foot up on the curb he just it just it was uncomfortable for him i have met people who i believe are incapable of being monogamous i am in the city that when the ashley i don't know if you heard about this but the ashley madison um got hacked and they published all the emails of all the people i'm in the city that was the number one um uptake of ashley madison in the world partly because it was a canadian company and we're close and but i spent a year a year doing therapy like six hours a day you know i was caught on the ashley madison list i was caught on the ashley madison list oh god i was so happy to see the end of that but so much about infidelity and you realize it is never about their partner it's about this innate drive right most guys if there was a study done that said if if you could fool around with somebody and not get caught would you it was like 86 percent of people of the guys said hell yes you know if i didn't get caught these are grandfathers and judges and priests and like it's it's this need and it's not just guys like i think that men think it's it's only that it's only guys that want sexual adventure i'm like hell no guys will have the same meat and potato sex with the same woman for the rest of their life it doesn't mean that they don't want other women because they're fundamentally and biologically attracted to new so new women are interesting but what they but women want you know women want you know the sexy rose petals on the bed and roll around the surf you know here to eternity they want to be on the golf green and on this chairlift like women want sexual adventure they won't tell you all of that and we've been slut shame for so long which is why I think you know sort of people at your age who are starting to go no I'm unapologetically a sexual person and you know you and four of your closest friends come over here and service me and I'm just like yay because I feel you know I still have that you know my parents know what I do and it's my grandparents did and it was all okay but there is still that overlying I learned early and often I said studied sex in university you shut up about it you don't tell you don't tell the guys you don't tell the other women you're slut shamed so I think that piece I think people are far more sexual so some people are really wired to for monogamy some people are wired for non-monogamy some people switch i would say that i have really worked that spectrum over a long period of time and it's finding out as long as it's not edited and i always say if it feels good and it's good for the other person and you're not hurting anybody it is a harmless pleasure and you should be celebrating it yeah and i i think that's important because i i feel like they're're saying and i you know i was previously in a monogamous relationship and i i very much felt like um like there's something wrong with me right i should be happy i should be you know like me having thoughts and feelings about other people or being interested in these things like there must be something wrong with me how you know am i a I this, am I that?
Um, so I, you know, I think when people hear this, you know, somebody saying like, know what you're feeling is normal. And actually there's, you know, a lot of history behind it. Um, you know, and, and monogamy is, you know, almost a new concept in the, it's a structure of time. Uh, I think all of that's very interesting for people to hear. And I don't think people are saying that enough. I think people aren't saying that enough. I think you think some people are, but it's not, it's not mainstream.
And if you're not really well read, and who is, you know, like you have to, you know, who has time to do that? And that's why people are getting their information in five minute soundbites, but you're not getting it enough going. It's okay. You know, it's okay if you feel this way.
this way it's not okay if you you know if you force it on somebody else but if you negotiate it and here are the tools to negotiate it and here are the places to go and you you know you did that really well I just listened to your secrets one about you know here's what you do you check in and here's the lobby looks like it it's a you know it's a square and here's where you park and I think that's great because it gives people really concrete information about what do they need to do and realize that there is, I call them landmines. You're going to step on a bunch of them.
And if you are educate yourself, you're going to avoid a lot that other people have stepped on. You're going to still hit your own, but it's not going to blow up an existing relationship, which it can if you go hither nither, right? The downside, the upside is you get hot sex, you get newness, you meet people you never would have met, you enhance yourself as a person. There's a lot of upside. The downside is there is a risk. There's a risk your partner's going to run off with somebody else. There's a risk that you're going to blow up your relationship.
But if you are, I tell people you have to communicate a few hundred thousand times. and if you have the skills and you can do that and you have all the information, you can make informed decisions. And yes, you're going to have times where you freak out and as you said, you're a hot mess because you're jealous or something happens that really triggers you. You understand what those triggers are and you know that nobody's ever died from this. We can sit down, we can talk about it.
there's therapists there's rules there's books there's information but they as you said they're harder to find and people aren't talking about them as much yeah and i think the other thing that you said that that i was interested in is you think um you know non-monogamy is on the path of um you know the gay and the lgbtq community where they were 20 years ago. Are there advocates for this community? Are there people out there trying to change laws and change rules? What are your thoughts on how to advocate for this community? Very, very few.
You've interviewed some of them, Mark and Frederick and Bob from Noddy New Orleans and Sante out at menage life in denver and like there's certainly some people the europeans are way ahead of us they're not they don't care like they really don't care um but the you know but the idea is that they're they aren't they aren't because everybody wants to be discreet you know even the ducks who i think are like pg and kind of you know just sexy with a mission and you know we're all super cute and adorable and and they don't want to be like i got judges and and you know doctors in there and people work for the prime minister and like no we can't be seen and i respect that but again it's saying i want i we need more people who are unapologetically saying this is who i am this is what i'm like i't give a shit what you think.
This is who I am. And I am, I'm not going to embarrass my family. I'm not going to embarrass my kids. It's nobody's business to talk about my sex life unless I choose to tell them. But I think being a swinger and being, you know, and being sexually open does not make you a freak. And again, the more that people can own it, the better it is. But there are very, very few in the industry who are doing that. And, and sometimes when they are, they are, you know, they're doing it for an agenda, they're doing it because they're, they're, you know, they're wanting to, you know, to make money.
And that's okay, if they're doing it, because it's their business. But if they're doing it to, you know, exploit people or exploit that, I think that that unfortunately, there's a few of that, which has given it a bad rap. And I suspect over the next five years, it's going to evolve, right? The how, how, what this uptake, you know, you guys are a great example of in less than a year, how many people have resonated with you.
And that idea that yeah it's not so but it's not somebody's secret you know I remember being trying to be hired by one of the big porn companies you know 20 years ago and just wasn't able you know I'm a sex therapist I don't want to work with porn I'm going to be tarred with that and in some ways I regret not not you know standing up and say I had young kids at the time and I you I wasn't able to do that, but not being able to say, no, I'm going to be here. I'm going to be the ethical voice in that. And I think that's what needs to happen.
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So if you're looking to connect with like-minded people, click the link in our show notes and sign up for STC using our affiliate link and receive a full access for 14 days completely free. Make sure you join the Swing Nation STC group and send us a message. Yeah, it is interesting. I think Thank you.
yeah it is interesting um i think a lot of people have kind of you know again me and lacy started this less than a year ago you know during the time of covid uh you know we started posting on tiktok under that swing talk hashtag you know and just you know nine ten months ago there was a hundred thousand clicks or you know ten thousand i don't know i don't know probably less than a hundred thousand clicks on that swing talk hashtag i think now it has over a billion uh clicks you know we used to know everybody on you know we we recognized every couple that that posted with that hashtag because there was only a handful of us i i think now every day yeah we every day every day there's a new face and of a couple that's posting and using that hashtag and putting makes us proud every time we see it we're like oh somebody else is doing it yeah so i i definitely i mean at least on tiktok which i get is a small microcosm of society but i definitely feel like there is a movement of people that are are kind of seeing what we've done and what the other swing talk creators have done and said like yeah why can't i why can't i share why can't i be open why can't I be open?
Why can't I say, yes, I'm a swinger and I'm not ashamed to admit that. But I definitely think you're right. I think there is a movement in that direction and it is good to see good to see that. And the industry is expanding. The industry is really expanding. So it will you know, there's there's room for everybody.'s just, you know, I said I went, I first went to Secrets as a good example six years ago and it was not at, you know, it was an old Ramada Inn in, you know, central Florida. And now it's the super polished, you know, resort. There's Caliente.
There's all the different things that are happening, the different clubs.
You know, you go to trapeze or you go to different places and they've been around for a while, but they there they can tell you that their markets are expanding in a big way so it's you're not alone even if sometimes you feel like you can't talk to anybody you can't talk to your friends you went to high school with about this you can't talk to it's a secret and you may have to be discreet but find other people that you can you can share this because you're gonna otherwise it feels alone and you need some you need people to offer you perspective because you know you're saying well I you know this happened and is this normal and I'm like no no no this is not normal you need to consent not just you know you don't just say okay I've consented at the beginning of the evening you know you need to consent during every new time that you're you're doing something new you need to consent every time you're meeting that person again for a second play event like and realizing that that whole dialogue I think it forces you I call it grad school relationship stuff it forces you to be you know become an expert communicator export it forces you to become sexually aware and I would say good therapy is is self awareness.
So if you can do that, in this process, you are so much further ahead. And if you can start asking yourself the questions early in your relationship, you know, most people like, you know, in out repeat if necessary kind of sex, and you get to the end of your life, and you haven't explored fantasies, and you haven't explored all the things that you could be doing.
Sex is part of the human condition it's it's who you are as a real person it's where you're most vulnerable and it is it makes sun shines brighter food tastes better if you've got great sex it is it's part of it's part of who you are no yeah and it seems you know the swinger motto seems to be just you know live living your best life or live your best life you know something along those lines. And I think you're right. Like, you know, once you can open up to this and realize that, you know, you can do it and still love your partner.
And it does, it does open up a lot of opportunities and make, you know, really enjoy things that I guess you almost were afraid to have enjoyed before.
I mean, I don't even know the way to put that, but that's what it seems like to me yep yep you guys are right you know because again you have made friends you've gone to places that you wouldn't have gone to you've now tried new experiences say you meet people in the lifestyle that you would not cross paths with and they're super cool and you get to have a community because you know as i told you my mom's a minister and she's all about people falling through the cracks. We need community. We're a, we're a pack based, you know, humans are, we need our people.
And if you, if you finding this and part of who you are is hidden to the world, it, it diminishes you.
And I find that, that some of the best relationships have, you know, and I said, as a therapist, I meet a lot of couples on the raggedy edge, but I also i also you know the best couples i've ever met in terms of the strongest marriages are people in the lifestyle because they have been forced to work at it and really own their stuff and know their partner and forgive their faults and talk about it and love and come from a place of kindness and if you can do that it makes everybody better people yeah i think something else i'd like to get your thoughts on since i mean you've been in this space and uh terminology right so i've heard ethical non-monogamy consensual non-monogamy uh polyamory you know what what is what term you know um you know if we're pushing for rights for people what what who are these people they these people?
They're non-monogamous people. They're polyamorous people. Like who, like what's, what's your view on lifestyle people and what the term, you know, what term would you put on them if there, if there is a term? There isn't, I don't think there's one size to sell. What the problem is, is we don't have the language. It's so new. This is only like 30 years old. So we don't have, you know, metamore, which is, you know, your partner's partner or compersion, meaning you care, you're happy that your partner's happy. You know, it's those kinds of languages, they've had to make those words up.
They had to do those. So, you know, I have a list in the non-monogamy class, I should send it to you for your post is, here's the definitions, boom, here's the list.
And I do this really fun, fun kahoot, you know, a game where game where we actually you know guess people to come up with names you know i called i have one i you know i call mcbane from the guy from the simpsons you know the one you know he's the guy that you you who's who's a dumbass who walks in front of your your husband and tries to chat you up and you go you're an idiot because you should have just been chatting up my husband you know and he's this the dude dude from the simpsons so we had to come make up words i have a word called pool hugs which i made up which you know it is about being in the in you know sort of hugging other people's naked husbands you know you can flirt with them i call it flirt vampirism i just get to hug you know i met you dan and i get to hug you and and you know and and you know i could smell your you know you had this like you smelled good i remember you smelled good like i can do that and it's you know that's nice for me as a middle-aged woman i get to hug other people's hunky husbands right it's it's understanding that dynamic and being respectful about it and learning that language so you know i call i you know i think it's it's when you talk about i i talk about non-monogamy being in a variety of different stages right there are there's sort of different kinds of non-monogamy there's there's the swingers I'll see you next time.
Bye-bye. more than one person. You tend to fall in love. And some people, when they're polyamorous, don't really care about the sex. And I'm like, huh?
For them, it them it's not about the sex it's about the community and you meet them and they're all this like peace love and understanding I'm like no I want to get laid it's about my orgasm not yours and then you have you know then you have the kink community and then you have the don't ask don't tell like people who I meet a lot of people because I'm a therapist I have a lot of couples whose wives are dying of breast cancer or have prostate cancer and can't get it up and so then they're doing the sort of where we're bringing in bulls we're doing the hot wife thing and you have to define what that is in non-monogamy so i say to people you ask a hundred different people a hundred different swingers what they want get a hundred different answers yeah i think that's so true that this lifestyle is such a conglomerate of of people that are interested in so many different things across the spectrum that Thank you.
Yeah. And I think that's so true that this lifestyle is such a conglomerate of, of people that are interested in so many different things across the spectrum that it's, it's hard to put just one word on it. Um, I do think that makes it maybe a little bit difficult if you're trying to advocate for rights for a group and we don't even know what to call the group. Um, and I've, you know, I've heard, you know, you've probably know some people don't like the term swinger. They think there's a negative connotation with that and they don't like using that term.
I've heard some people say they don't like the term non-monogamy because essentially it's saying I'm not normal, right? I'm the opposite of monogamy. I'm non-monogamous would be almost like if gay people were called not straight, you know what I mean? Like they don't, they don't like that term. So I do think the language of the lifestyle is something that's interesting.
And I think you're right that it is evolving um but i was curious on your thoughts on all that i love i love your pineapple people idea you know and i remember talking to frederick like literally five days ago and he's saying that the pineapple has finally you know been accepted as the you know everybody was saying we need a flag or like some secret handshake or you know we have that we have the hercules ring that you know, Batman sort of shoots it up to the sky kind of thing. But I think that that's starting to happen.
Everybody, you know, there's a lot of people who are overly politically correct about that.
You know, I know that, you know, sometimes I, I roll my eyes where I remember going to, you know, kink thing and just the, the etiquette around that, you know, and, and why and why you know because it's always interesting because when you go to a swing event it's usually yes until you say no because i can go up and hug you both of you oh i'm gonna hug you because you know i'm new and we're by our mutual participation in this group i'm going to give you a hug it would be better if i say can i hug you are you open for hugs especially in covid but you know but if i if i did that it wouldn't be like and versus the king community where it's no until you've negotiated yes so you need to talk to somebody's dom before you even bring them a drink and you know it's just like you know my head wants to explode and i'm a sex therapist and i navigate this world so it's hard for people and to be gentle with yourself and it's okay for you to ask what you think are dumb questions because there's a thousand other people with that same question as you found out it's it's really it's okay and there are some people that are available to be resources and you know i have a bunch of stuff published i have the sex with sue.com site read it like i got stuff you want to send me an email sue at sex with sue just you know i won't i write everybody but i'll say look here's my blog on it or here's what i've done on it i've got 20 years of blogging on that topic Thank you.
me an email sue at sex with sue just you know i won't i write everybody but i'll say look here's my blog on it or here's what i've done on it i've got 20 years of blogging on that topic and you may be able to find it or here's my next non-monogamy class it's inexpensive i try and keep it affordable i do you know sliding scale if you really can't afford it and it's it's virtual and let's get into it because we have i find if you do that it's it's not just individual therapy it's group therapy because the group it's like you know everybody's read the book everybody talks about it and you go huh that person felt like i did or i didn't know about that and then you see all the connections that happen and say can you know we may not play together but we're i think we're friends can we can we talk can we do a you know can we do a kick chat about it as the four of us because i don't know know.
And I get it. I want some communication. And you make community because that's I think ultimately that is the word. If you can get your community, whatever that looks like, provided you're not thinking I'm going to score with anything with boobs or I'm going to, you know, I'm going to touch his dick without permission. I think you can find a place where you can get it and you can evolve as a person.
Yeah, and I think we talked a little bit about this at Secrets, but myself and Lacey, we came up with a, we voted on a, we put up a couple different designs for a swinger pride flag, and we put that on our website, and a couple of the other Swing Talk people put it on their website, and I think, you know, we had over 10, 15,000 people come and vote on the design they liked. So we do have a, you know, I don't know if it's the official flag, but there is a swinger pride flag that we're kind of trying to circulate.
And it's cool to see because there's couples now on TikTok that are, you know, hiding behind the flag and then kind of revealing themselves. And it's interesting to see.
So if you'd like that design, I can certainly it to you i think i think promulgating something like that you know some kind of symbol that you know people can flock to and say yeah these are my people this is my community this is our symbol you know i think all that is strong you know again i think the lgbtq community was very good at doing that so absolutely you know i think it's it's a positive thing to have people unite behind something yeah they and they don't have to be out like they're like i had i've had guys come to duck events and go sue i'm in military intelligence if my picture is out i could die i'm like okay important safety tip no photos and i have we have big badges that say no pictures and you know i'm the only one allowed to take pictures at events and and you know i'm blonde and i'm kind of clueless sometimes but i have a great team behind me and like, okay, this guy had a no sticker, no pictures on that, you know, like nobody who gets outed doesn't have to be.
You know, I have people who are going through custody battles and don't want to be, you know, their ex knowing that, you know, that they are in the lifestyle. It's nobody's business how you choose to do this. But I think that there are ways to be discreet while not, you know, while not judging people and not feeling judged and being able to be an outspoken advocate for it. And there are people who are in a safer place to be able, like me, like you, to be able to say, screw you, this is who we are. This is okay. You know, I don't care what you think.
If I thought about, if I was on the radio for, you know, for 25 years, if I cared what you thought about me, I'd have killed myself a long time ago so have at it as long as you're you know and i i call it i say don't pee in my pool right i have this great life it's like and you're welcome in but if you're you know if you do something if you're judgy you know that's peeing in my pool and i don't have time for you so if kindness i think kindness matters in this community and there are a lot of kind people so finding your way and again i'm i would be happy to pose the banner both on the duck site and on the sex with suicide and our crazy playful coconuts which is our travel site and all of that stuff and figure out how we can all work together because it needs to be a safe place yeah i agree and i don't you know you've been in this space for a long time uh but we've had people come to us that are in the lifestyle and almost like accused us of violating the rules, saying like, hey, like you're ruining swinging by by talking about it.
Right. But by talking about all these signs and symbols, by talking about all these places, like it's not supposed to be out there on the Internet. Like, you know, like, what are you doing?
You're like, it's almost like they think we're using it for clout or to get attention when truly we're just trying to help and educate and put information out there but have you experienced that where some swingers are almost like no so you can't like you're violating the rules by talking about this well they don't want sort of people who are gonna you know who're gonna lurk um they don't want to you know they don't want people who don't who aren't in the know to find it and they want to feel like they're better than they, that they have a secret, right?
So secret societies are cool and people want to be a member of it. I also think the taboo, like I see it with, like I see people in therapy and I've seen swingers in therapy who have a complete carte blanche to be non-monogamous, but still want to cheat, still want to screw around, still want to, it's the betrayal, right?
It's the, it's the the picking up somebody without telling your partner and they're still doing it even though they have the ability to be open because that that secret taboo thing gives them a rush and i i agree with that like i love to me that's part of swinging that's knowing that we're doing something that we're not supposed to be doing if that makes any sense yeah that's what's kind of fun for me to be honest with you so i can relate to that so a lot of people do that and they're they're like so i shouldn't do it but oh it's such a titillating thing and i'm texting other girls or i'm texting other guys because it's it's a rush for me it's candy it's it's you know and it's it becomes a mild addiction like anything that affects the pleasure centers of the brain like I got a guy who the porn addiction who can't get hard unless he's clicking the mouse looking at different images right you get to that stage you know if you've you know done too much of it right if you are so you have to constantly collect numbers and be texting people and it's like okay you need to sort of sit down and go here's here are my rules here are my boundaries like I would eat chocolate all day every day if i could right my rules are i don't ever eat you know gas station chocolate and you know i have to have to be godiva or nothing else and so you have to put rules in otherwise you end up on a slippery slope and i think the same thing happens with with swinging you may want to you may want to think okay i want to bang a billion women you're not going to bang a billion women and that's what I see it with guys who who especially guys who are CEOs or have made a lot of money they've been to you know travel to every place been on every kind of trip but they there's nothing no new rush well they can't sleep with a billion women so they want a bed they want a bed notch as they talk about it you know and if you're up front about that like I met I met a guy in the in a hot tub at Desire and he's like he and his wife came with more than a gross of condoms Thank you.
and if you're up front about that like I met I met a guy in the in a hot tub at Desire and he's like he and his wife came with more than a gross of condoms that's like more than 144 for a week and expected to use them and it was hilarious and he's like he was the guy's like Sue we've been talking for five minutes I want to bed with you I'm like no no no thanks anyway nice meeting you but it was hilarious because I he and his wife had the same room.
And so they'd actually she was expected or either the other one was she had it like Monday, Wednesday, Friday, he had it Thursday, you know, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and the other person was expected to find another bed, you know, wherever that night. And I would meet with him and I'd say, Hey, how's it going? He'd like, I had British, I had French, I had Mexican.
Oh, the Mexican girl wasican girl was really good you know like and he'd go through it like that was a night for him he'd just be like going i've been eating around the world and i'm like okay cool whatever you know so people people do that and as long as you're up front about that no problem if you're not up front about it it feels it either you you get that either that sense of desperation or you get that this is an authentic and it feels ever so slightly creepy and so i think as much about us being open it's also about regulating the behavior and saying this is not a free-for-all this is not you copying a feel under somebody's skirt without permission this is not grinding up against somebody you know you'll see it at the clubs where some you know the guys will say can i watch and then before you know it they're touching a foot and you know they're they're they think all i paid 150 to come to secrets or a club tonight as a single guy i expect to get laid because that was my cable bill or i expect to get laid because 200 would have got me a hooker and you're like no there is no expectation that she even if you bought her a drink that she owes you yeah that's a very good point and i think there is you know i overall i think our lifestyle experience has very been very positive but there definitely is things like that and you know and lacy has talked about it on our podcast before you know in some ways the lifestyle has empowered her to you know be get more comfortable saying no for sure and setting her.
So, you know, again, I think being open and honest and be able to communicate all this stuff, it is a way to empower women to be able to be more, and men also, to be able to speak, you know, what they want and what they don't want and things like that. Yeah. And I think what guys don't get is that women need to feel safe.
And what, you know, you're, you're a big guy big guy and you know you're not worried about your physical safety women are always worried about their physical safety it's a hundred percent like we're worried like i met a girl at secrets who who really attracted brunette and she would come in and she's like and all these guys are circling and want to buy her drinks and i'm and she's like sue i don't i don't trust any of them i don't know them i'm not going home with them I'm not sleeping with them I'm even in a you know sort of a playroom I'm said I really would like to get my oil changed but I need somebody who's going to talk to me as a person and willing to get to know me before I'm able to do that because you know it's like it's going on a coffee date you're worried you know even if it's off just off you know match.com you're worried that somebody's going to be a serial axe murderer and guys don't ever think that way and i say to guys the rule is you got to assume that she's worried about her physical safety and that you're going to hurt her or be creepy or rape her or something number two is that she's going to be worried that you've got that that no matter what it is that smell of desperation if you're thinking with the little head you got a problem because she's going to pick up on it it puts out a vibration somehow it's a scent whatever it they always pick up on it and to be able to understand that what women are looking for is fun and play and you think oh women are just there for my pleasure and i'm like no no no no monsieur you do not understand it is about her orgasms and about her pleasure because women drive this business, period.
Yeah. Agree. No, that's all great points. I think we could sit here and talk to you about all this all day, Sue. But I think we've got about 10 minutes left on our schedule here. So why don't you tell us where to find you, give us all your plugs of how to find you, what you're working on in the future um and and how the swing nation followers can uh can can get in touch with you and, and follow your journey. Sure. Um, so my main, you know, I, my clinical site is sexwithsue.com. That's easy. You know, I've been, it's been there for 20 years.
I have the, we are the ducklings.com was the ducklings.com was taken by some, you know, duck breeder and, you know, Pennsylvania, But WeAreTheDucklings.com is the ducklings.com was taken by some you know duck breeder in you know Pennsylvania but we are the ducklings.com is the community group so it runs in three cities in two countries um partly because I spent my winter months in central Florida if you're Canadian you understand why we spend our winter months in central Florida Canada's paradise three months of the year and the winter is not it so um I have I went to you know I didn't have my community down there there so i thought all right we'll just do a duck event i'll put it up post it and i met people that i'm going to know for life at my very first first event because i met my people so there's a huge chapter in florida and it's and now we've got people in alaska and california but they're small little little pockets um we have out of that we have a travel site where we all gather which is really fun think of it as like martini camp it's like the most fun you ever have ever um and it's called playful coconuts you can otherwise call it duckling travel but and we started doing um something called duckling dating which had um different things going on it was it was you had to be vetted somebody who either me or somebody in my team had to have met you you it was open to any kind of relationship model you it had both online and offline events and you had this education piece we're morphing that into a more but we have that sort of the ducklings we are the ducklings in duckling dating to be able to connect with people who are not nigerian scammers who are not going to be you know, who are, as you said, not catfishing because we're going to verify them.
And then out of this, I'm doing two new initiatives that came out of COVID. One is swingerclass.com, which is basically everybody just kept asking me for the same classes, kind of like you. And I thought I need to put them into a class. And then what we've done is we've accredited them. I call them Boy Scout badges.
So badges so if you take a class on you know how not to be a dick in a lifestyle and you get a badge what I'm doing is negotiating with people like temptations and desire and hedo and secrets and some of the big clubs so that if you're a single guy and you've taken this course you either get in because you weren't allowed to or you get in at a discount because you're not an asshole. So it's going to get you this big checkmark and then you're going to have testimonials and they're saying this guy is a legit and a cool guy. You know, yeah, we slept with him and he was really great.
You know, brought me chocolate. Like good guy. You know, he gets he gets the approval. So so it's swingerclass.com. It's just being launched like, like imminently. It's 2022. And then I needed a place to put all these guys who have finished the course. And I thought all the single women I know want to meet guys who aren't dicks, who aren't going to send them dick pic on the first date, aren't going to be an asshole. So I come up with this thing we call Casanova Connect, which is, it's just been approved by the Apple store as an app, Casanova and Android stores.
So you can go on Casanova Connect, which is just been approved by the Apple store as an app, Casanova and Android store. So you can go on Casanova Connect and post your basically your picture. And I have little archetypes. So are you the, you know, are you BBC? Are you the guy next door? Are you the hunky firefighter? Are you, you know, are you, you know, the young buck for the cougars, whatever. And you have little archetypes and you can put your little profile.
And so if some woman wants or a couple wants to borrow you for an evening or a weekend, there you are with your little gold stamps and you have little archetypes and you can put your little profile and so if some woman wants or a couple wants to borrow you for an evening or a weekend there you are with your little gold stamps and your and your boy scout badges at casanova connect so all of this is going on trying to pull all these pieces together and say we're in the industry we want to make it kind and good and you know the focus is education so you know you can always reach me sue at sex with sue i have a i have a tiktok under sex with sue i have uh it's been showing up on my fyp just so you know is it really been showing up oh good okay probably because we know each other and you probably i'm sure there's some secret algorithm or something anyway but it's good good i mean i'm seeing it oh that's good okay well i i you know i've been i've had about four tiktok accounts which immediately i said sex and they've eliminated me so i'm i'm less concerned about tiktok but i'm on instagram and under sue mcgarvey probably um under under twitter try me under sex with sue and you can find me it's it's the easiest thing to do is to find me there and we'll go you know i'm on a facebook page and you know they said that we have the ducklings has got this amazing, oh, you should join our private group.
Oh, I'll send you the link. Because we have the best memes ever. I don't care about anybody else. Our memes are better than yours. Our memes are so good. And again, we push, you know, and I get I get a list of all the new, you know, the new studies in sex that are coming out every day. So my staff are going through it, then we post them. So if you want to know cutting edge, what's happening, what's new in sex, you want to, if this is your hobby, get informed because I have all the list of all the latest articles, right? All the, anything that's out there you may not have read about, I got it.
So find it. Awesome. I think that's awesome. And I think the next time we'll see you, Sue, is probably Naughty New Orleans, yeah i'm i'm planning coming out in order yeah yeah i'm i'm a party animal till about 10 o'clock at night i'm the i'm the morning girl with the coffee at like seven o'clock going yay let's do this i am not the late night girl but yeah yeah i'm sure we'll cross paths there it'll be great we'll hang out we'll definitely i definitely owe you another dinner. Yeah. All right. We look forward to seeing you, and we appreciate you taking the time to come along with us.
And I think with that, babe, in a world full of apples. Be the pineapple. Be the pineapple, guys. Bye. Bye.
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