Send us Fan MailLifestyle Interview: Ashley Madison Tells All: An Unfiltered Interview with Paul Keable | Episode 188In this episode of The Swing Nation Podcast, the top-rated podcast about non-monogamy and swinging, Dan and Lacy sit down for an uncensored interview with Paul Keable, the Chief Strategy Officer of Ashley Madison—the discreet dating platform with over 80 million users worldwide.With the recent release of the Netflix documentary Ashley Madison: Sex, Lies Scandal, Paul addresses the explosive claims made in the film, revisits the infamous 2015 data breach, and opens up about how the company has evolved since the scandal rocked the internet.They dive deep into how Ashley Madison is now embracing the non-monogamous community, shifting its reputation and re-establishing trust among users looking for more than just secrecy.Whether you’re curious about the documentary, the platform’s role in modern non-monogamy, or what the future holds for one of the most talked-about names in discreet dating, this episode is packed with raw insights, candid answers, and bold conversation. Don’t miss this revealing interview!- The Swing Nation -Main Website Quick Navigation Website: -- (Find all our social media links more!)- Swinger Society - Our Website to meet, connect events Swinger Society Discord Our Facebook Group- Swinger Websites -Kasadie 90 day free trialUsername: TheSwingNation SDC 14 day free trial Username: TheSwingNation** Use code 36313 for 14 days free! ** SLSUsername: NorthernGuynSouthernGirl- Merch More -Order Your Merch Here!- Lacy’s Fun Links -VIP OnlyFansPREMIUM OnlyFans-- THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS --I Know my Status : Get 15% your first test with by using promo code: Lifestyle https://iknowmystatus.com/ Wisp : Making sexual healthcare inclusive, cost-effective, and accessible—for everyoneUse Code SWING at checkout for 15% off your oder!Shameless Care: ED Medication and at home STD testingUse Code TSN at checkout for $30 off your order!Promescent® Make Love Longer, It’s Time for Great SexUse CodeSupport the show- Thank you for the support! -
Transcript
This podcast is intended for adult audiences. Over the age of 18, it contains adult language and situations. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to us, and not of any employer, organization, committee, or other group or individuals. This podcast is not intended to be taken as professional advice. Welcome to the Swing Nation podcast, a podcast by swingers and for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle.
Come with us and share our pineapple journey as we travel the globe. Interview the activists, learn and grow together. Join the activists. Learn and grow together. Join the nation. So, Lacey, people are asking, how do they get to go to a party or an event with us? They check out swingersociety.net. You create a profile, you sign up for an event, and you come hang out with us. Super easy. That's right. If you want to party with us and the other faces and names that you know from social media and TikTok, head on over to swingersociety.net. Can't wait to see you there.
Hey there, pineapple people, and welcome to the Swing podcast we are your hosts northern guy and southern girl and today we have a very special episode for you yes a little a little different for the swing nation podcast but we are sitting down with paul keble who is the chief strategy officer at ashley madison we are and unless you've been under a rock for the last couple years you've probably heard last decade of ashley madison yeah it's made a few headlines paul you you guys are pretty popular here lately well thank you so much first for having me on today i really appreciate it yeah we've uh we've certainly been in the news on occasion for a variety of activities.
Yes. So the way we like to start our podcast is kind of to get to know our guests. So if you don't mind just introducing yourself to our guests and maybe explaining a little bit how you've got tied up with Ashley Madison and how you've kind of landed in this position you're in now.
Absolutely thank you so much um so I am a 50 plus year old dad of two teenage boys who has been working with Madison for 10 years I'm a communications PR professional and a little over 10 years ago a friend of mine came to me to say that uh she had a, a company that was looking for someone to take over the communications department. But it was a company that was a little bit spicy. It was spicy. I mean, I've done a lot of crazy clients over my time. I've done a lot of consulting. And I'm like, why would you call something spicy? And then she says, oh, by the way, it's Ashley Madison.
And at that time, you know, I wasn't aware, but I'm not sure to what extent because it's quite some time ago. And I remember coming into the when we had an office back then to meet with the then CEO. And I was just fascinated in part because so for those of you who don't know a little bit about Ashley Madison, we're actually a Canadian company born and raised.
And, you know, it's a unique thing in this country where we have this big global brand operated out of canada oftentimes um we're you know working for satellite into offices that within american headquarters or european headquarters or there's canadian companies that just operate in canada but to have this brand that at the time was operating in more than 50 countries around the world and was obviously way out there on the edge I went wow this is going to be really interesting exciting and enticing and I went to my then wife and she kind of gave me a bit of a cry side look and she's like do you want to tell me something and I went no no it's just a Um, and so I joined and it's been quite the rollercoaster, uh, over the past 10 plus years, but I have to tell you, you know, it's been one of the most rewarding jobs I've ever had, not just in terms of the work that I get to do, but more importantly, the people that I get to encounter both through, you know, my sort of official job function of doing interviews like this with people like yourselves, uh, but also some of the academics I've worked with to study the nature of monogamy and non-monogamy.
And then most importantly, our actual members and coming to really understand who they are and the variety of reasons they come to use the platform like Ashley, given the plethora of alternatives out there.
Yeah, it is interesting so ashley madison got it start what early early 2000s yeah we launched uh 2002 um so a little over 20 years ago and since then we've had more than 90 million members join the the site yeah and in the early 2000s i mean that was kind of the the wild wild west of the internet dating yeah internet dating right i mean that was kind of when everything was first getting started right well yeah and it's actually it goes to the origin stories of our business our founder you know had what is the proverbial light bulb moment because traditional vanilla online dating was certainly taken off between the harmonies and the match.coms the world, but he read a report that said that up to 30% of the profiles were in fact married people pretending to be single.
And that light bulb flicked on and said, why don't we build a place where people could be ironically, more honest about who they are and what they're looking for with others who are looking for the very same thing. And thus was born Ashley Manson. Yeah. Okay. So 2001, you guys launched and you launched with this.
I think what's interesting, what you just said there is, you know, we're on a lot of swinger dating sites and I think it's pretty universal, whether you get on Tinder, whether you get on a swinger dating site, whether you get you get on you know some of the ones you you listed there are a lot of married people pretending to be something they're not yeah on these websites i mean we encounter them probably every single every single month so the the idea of being like okay let's stop pretending that we're we're on the up and up and just be honest about what we're looking for.
We're married people that are looking for something else. It's a very, it's at least an authentic idea, I think. Well, isn't that kind of what, like, how swingers' websites were probably born? It's because we've used vanilla dating sites as swingers. Like, we've used Tinder. I think they've gotten a lot better now. But back when they, before, we would use, we've used Tinder. We've used several different things.
And like in the comments wrote we're not actually just a single guy or not actually just a single girl we are a married couple so isn't that kind of the same concept for how swinger websites were born yeah i don't know exactly i would assume so when they got their start yeah the uh yeah i think there's some legitimacy to that point but was, I think, you know, I think a lot of the people who are in the lifestyle tend to be a little bit more upfront about who they are and they're not, you know, they're very unlikely to be pretending.
They might have some covert function of it in terms of their public profile, whether it's on Tinder or Bumble or Hinge, you know, X number of years ago before all the different descriptions were sort of allowed on these various platforms but for us what we were really trying to do and what we're continuing to try to do is take affairs out of places where they're highly increased risk of getting caught in just what we feel is kind of inappropriate um majority of affairs from our perspective are not happening through dating sites or other dating sites more importantly they're happening at the office because that's where you spend so much for your life and your time and in a world today where both parties are being punished for and again we're talking very clearly here consensual affairs companies just don't want that in the business place it's a risk it's a cost and it can lead to a lot of negative outcomes and so our suggestion is hey listen if you're going to have an affair have it with another person who's also married who's not in your work life not in your social life and it creates this concept of you know not to be wildly negative but mutually assured destruction because if i'm cheating and she's cheating then neither one of us are likely to act in a fashion to expose the affair.
Whereas if you're at the office and you're sleeping with somebody who maybe is junior to you, then there's leverage. And then there's opportunities for that to be utilized in a negative fashion and potentially expose that affair. You know, the CEO of Intel, this is going back a few years, not that long ago, he lost his position. He was fired because he had a consensual affair years prior to getting the role, but the board of directors found out it was with an employee. It long had since ended. And again, consensually, there was no report of harassment or anything of that.
But the fact that it had happened in the workplace and it was against the work rules, he lost job and so this was our whole point office affairs are not safe for work so come to ashley madison but what's fascinating i know we're going to probably get into this is the evolution over the past 20 plus years of who's actually using ashley madison versus what people think is actually happening yeah no that's that is true and the swingers are the same way You know, so there's several swingers that have to hide who they are and not be honest about it at places like where I was in the military before I retired for 21 years.
And for the last eight years I was in the military, I was pretty active in the swinger community. And I was petrified that my work would find out that I was a swinger, even though completely consensual. My wife about it we're doing it together had the wrong person found out they could have used it to end my career so definitely um those types of concerns i think are pretty universal for um for married people that are trying to engage with others whether it's consensually or or well whether it's disclose or not disclose yeah how we like to frame it. Yeah. A good way of putting it.
I like that term, disclose non-monogamy. I think that's better than... I've never really liked consensual, to be honest with you. Right, because obviously the sexual act is consensual. Yeah. Now, whether both of the married partners are agreeing to the sexual act or not is up for debate, I guess. Okay. So let's fast forward. So 2001, you guys start this website with this different kind of with this really kind of bold statement, right? And then 2015 happens. And for those that don't know, that's around the time you guys got hacked and everything kind of went to hell, right?
Not a high point in my career.
You were at, Ashley, you said you've been there for 10 years so i was there you would were pretty new and you were working for the company at that time right i was there for a little over a year and a half and you know it was obviously the lowest point in the company's history and you know to be really clear here the reason it was a low point was not just because of what happened is because we let our members down, because all the marketing aside, you know, the taglines aside, ultimately, what we offer our members is discretion to explore a variety of activities with others who are seeking the same thing.
and in that moment we unambiguously let them down and as hard as that was one of the things that was fascinating to me sitting on the inside and it wasn't well reported at the time was right before all that happened, we were signing about 30,000 people a day, new members joining every day. But during the worst of those times, we saw our membership increase more than 100,000 a day. And our revenue was up double-digit percentage points. So clearly, there was a growing interest.
There was millions of people around the world who had not heard about our service who were saying, holy moly, this answers a problem I have, and you are now the solution. Please stay in business. And we didn't let that go to our heads thinking, oh, it's fine. We don't have to do anything. We knew we had to rebuild the trust. We knew we had to go about things in a new and better way to sort of come back from that moment.
And I think the first three to four years, it was really just all about authenticating our message to our members to tell them, you know, why they can trust us, why we're the right platform for discrete dating of a variety of activities.
and you know we're at a point now like i said we've had more than almost twice as many members yeah more than twice as many members dating of a variety of activities and you know we're at a point now like i said we've had more than almost twice as many members yeah more than twice as many members have joined since 2015 than we had at 2015 um because we had a little more than 30 million at that time so that's an astonishing point to tell you you know the world that you know clearly there is a community of people that find what we offer and value. And it's an exciting future for the business.
Yeah. And so last year, 2024, this Netflix documentary comes out. And we've watched it. We've seen it. And it makes some pretty bold accusations, I guess, would be the way to say it.
that when this this hack happened that you know you guys had or not you guys ashley madison had said it had all these security things in place and it had all these badges and stuff on its website and in fact maybe some of those were overindulged and not necessarily the the full truth that you know there was more focus on growth than maybe there was necessarily on security um is is that true like what what is your kind of vision of or your view on all that stuff so there's i mean was this just some hackers that just were just no no i think there's a multitude it wouldn't matter what was in place no i think there's a multitude of things there one i think working for ashley madison in particular pre-2015 where the business was just growing leaps and bounds you know we were a significant cultural touch point i think you know some people don't realize this there's a whole episode of the simpsons uh based on us where marge cheats on homer on sassy madison.com so certain individuals who who might have appeared in that show you're referencing you know they were there but i think delusions of grandeur might have said it in terms of you know their role versus you know how they portrayed themselves and what they really knew what was happening because none of those individuals were part of the team that was responsible for security so did we have security absolutely we have a team that was responsible for security.
So, did we have security? Absolutely. Did we have a team that was responsible for that? Absolutely. And if we go back to that, it was a very different time. I mean, we're talking 10 years ago at this point in terms of the internet and internet security. Unambiguously, the company made mistakes. And for that, we paid a penance. And one that we've learned our lessons and we'll never go back to some of the errors that were there. But the idea that we weren't invested in security or that we weren't, that wasn't part of the company's DNA was wrong.
It was different as a lot of companies were at the time. And so we, you know, clearly, you know, we can't pretend that what happened didn't happen. So it did. And we've grown from that. But the biggest shift that I tell people, because obviously I can't go into all the technological differences. So that's giving you a bit of a blueprint. But whereas back then we would have an individual or an individual's responsible for security. What we have now is, you know, a much more expanded and robust security team.
but we also have a culture of security and privacy embedded into the company where it's each and every one person's responsibility to think through that so when we're doing any new product launch any new feature that we're building any any aspect of the platforms being changed even the marketing of the platform and in the brand you know we think about how does security and privacy you know relate to every single initiative because it's all of our responsibilities and i think that shift is the biggest cultural aspect that has allowed our members to see the difference between you know ashley 1.0 to ashley 2.0 where we are today yeah did you did they anybody ever figure out who did it no is that yeah i was gonna say Last I knew, no, this time so i was right out of high school in college and i can remember the list 2015 no when the um Yeah, sort of 2015.
Oh, thought they started in 22 okay wait wait a second i was a little older but i was still at this job and i can remember when the list came out and everybody was like checking it everybody checked the list yeah literally everybody in america once this hack happened and these lists of names came out i think almost everybody did you know anybody i knew people that were on were on it. My name might have been on it. I'm not sure. Was it? No, I probably used a fake name. No, there was people that I worked with that names were on it. And I guess I was pretty pure back then. I was very vanilla.
And I never—like, I was shocked to see that people were engaging in this type— I don't know if they ever did anything, but I was just shocked that they even were entertaining the idea yeah it was quite it's quite the you know it's interesting like literally are it you mean like they're both 40 i think everybody knows about ashley madison and that hack and then but i hadn't heard about it before that i remember finding out about ashley madison when it was hacked and when the list and everything came out that was my experience with it okay and then some other accusations that i think we maybe need to talk about that came out of that netflix documentary is there were some accusations that there wasn't as many females on that site as was portrayed and that some of them might have been i didn't really is either bots or paid chatters that were interacting with two different issues there uh let's deal with the bots first yeah we had bots that was a dumb mistake um but you know what what isn't told in the netflix documentary is we our company so our parent company is Ruby Life.
We own and operate a couple different other data brands as well. We bought Ashley Madison from the original founder. That program was part of the purchase. We were already well underway to shutting it down country by country because of the nature of the code. I'm not going to get into the technology of it all, but it wasn't just an easy on and off switch from the whole world. It had been shut off in the US. It had been shut off in Canada. It had been shut off in Australia before Thank you.
toad and i'm not going to get into the technology of it all but it wasn't like it's just an easy on and off switch from the whole world it had been shut off in the u.s had been shut off in canada and shut off in australia before 2015 and our business was continuing to grow in those markets so that was not the reason why our business was growing did we have it yes was it a good idea no it was unambiguously a mistake but not one that will ever be repeated and as it relates to women on the site you know i think that accusation is one that's thrown out a lot of different sites but ours in particular and it's born out of an idea of misogyny because there's this idea that you know women don't have agency over their sexual life that they don't want to manifest an active sex life um you know once they hit a certain age or or in life.
And to counter that argument, we actually brought in the auditing firm Ernst & Young. And this was a number of years ago, but they audited our whole membership for the 2017 year.
And they put out a public report that anybody could go to our website and find and download and look at it and it unequivocally stated in that year alone we saw active females to active paid males 1.13 active females for every one active paid male so the balance was pretty was pretty good and those numbers will fluctuate from country to country region region like i know in latin america we often see two to one women to men in that same scenario sometimes even three to one um so it depends where you're at and and as as with dating your your chances of success are are predicated on a lot of different factors and variables because what you're looking when you're coming to a place like actually madison you're not looking for a life partner you're not looking to fulfill a whole bunch of that, you know, you might find in a traditional dating site.
You're looking for something pretty specific. And so people, you know, will take their time to find somebody and look for that right opportunity. And, you know, some people come on having this expectation that, oh, I'm going to meet a horny housewife and sleep with her tonight. Well, that's just unrealistic in any scenario.
yeah so yeah because even if there is a horny housewife on the site and she is looking to have sex with somebody she's still going to take the time to vet the individual make sure he or they meet her expectations needs and and all the other parameters that she's put in there so you know it's not that it's a huge laborious activity but you have to have realistic expectations and i'm sure you've experienced that in the lifestyle as well because i've heard from from other people in that space Thank you.
not that it's a huge laborious activity but you have to have realistic expectations and i'm sure you've experienced that in the lifestyle as well because i've heard from from other people in that space where they get so disappointed they go to a sex club and then they come you know back that night it's like nothing happened i'm like what do you think was gonna happen you you know you're brand new you don't know anybody it's not like people just drop their pants in the back corner and then it's good times people you know they they have different you know inhibitions and desires but there's still an aspect of safety trust and connection that needs to be formed it's different but just people come into these spaces with wild expectations and so this is part of the reason i do these conversations to help you know level set people no i think we 100 can relate to that um you know one i'm surprised you know your one-to-one ratio you know we're on quite a few swinger websites we actually manage our own swinger community and stuff like that and our spaces are even dominated by more males you know maybe it's two to one maybe it's three to one but it's it's definitely dominated by males in those spaces and a lot of the males you know they kind of have a bad reputation in those spaces because they do what you just said they they jump on these sites they mass message everybody and say hey you want to fuck you know like oh hey nice nice boobs look at my dick you know you like having sex tonight and they email as many people as they possibly can and hoping that they get one response um so that they can have a quick hookup that night and what they find is in our community, all these women are married.
They have husbands that they love and they care about. And they can have good sex just about whenever they want. And what they're looking for is that something extra, that person that fills a certain fantasy, that person that checks whatever box that they may have that they're looking for. And it's not something you can just jump in and quickly fill.
You're not going to not all these women aren't gonna be like oh my god there's a guy with a dick oh my i've never seen that before please please come fuck me uh so yeah i think you know that get laid quickly if you're if you're looking at married women for that that's not necessarily um the case i think you're gonna find what in this space i don't think it's in the case in almost any space quite frankly i think no matter again even if you're the most libidinous woman on the planet you're still going to have certain frameworks and parameters from a trust and safety perspective to start but also just hey am i in the mood tonight versus tomorrow like do i have to pick up the kids from you know soccer practice if we all have busy lives and and you know people just take their time with it but that said if you if you do the approach to platform you properly in the community properly and understand and communicate you know you can meet some amazing people and just your point about how men can come on some platforms and do the pray and spray methodology.
We've actually purpose built our platform to try to dissuade men from being able to do that. So the difference on our site is most dating sites are subscription-based platforms where a guy can go on and message as many women as he wants immediately. But he's going to get charged month over month over month. Whereas our site, you buy a package of credits. And to initiate a conversation with a woman will cost you a certain amount of credits, depending on which features you employ. But if she responds, your conversation with her is now can be free as long as you want to continue talking to her.
So what's great about that from our perspective is it's limits or forces men to be a little bit more choosy in who they send messages to. Number one, two, for the men's benefit is that if he does meet somebody and they do extend the conversation into the real life and they go off and have a relationship affair, whatever it is, whether it's a weekend, a week, a month or a year, that man can come back and his credits are still there.
And he doesn't have to buy a whole new package until he's exhausted those credits so we find it gives a better experience for the females on the site and allows men to explore without constantly paying the monthly subscription if they're not finding traction so we made a profile and we had a male profile and i put like our picture up and i put you know that we were the swing nation podcast but we were looking for females and i messaged a few i can't i checked it like right before we came on because i just played with it a little bit but um yeah it was pretty cool to be like on the male side of that and be messaging people and asking to see their pictures and stuff like that have you connected with anybody no no but i will say just from like a user standpoint i thought it was pretty cool there was much more single people on there than i would have ever thought i thought for sure it would just be married people but there was i would say half were single and they just said that in their description.
I will say there's not a lot. Unless they're single, there's not a lot of pictures. So you relied heavily on, like, their description, like, whatever they put. So you were really hoping to grab somebody's attention. And people were just, like, pretty blatant, you know, like, I'm in this marriage, and I'm not having good sex. I'm not going to leave my husband. I have children. I'm happy with my life. I just need to get fucked basically. Um, and so I, I found it kind of refreshing to see that, like just honesty. And then again, it was nice to see single people there as well.
Well, it's interesting over the past six or seven years we've been tracking uh to a degree the nature of our membership in terms of how would they identify and we have about 20 of the membership would indicate there what we would say is disclosed non-monogamous meaning their partners are aware if not participating in their activities and ultimately that's because of the discretion we offer unlike you know the tinders of the world and some of the other dating platforms we cater typically to a slightly older audience north of 35 let's say argument yeah and people have established life at this point they have careers sometimes they have kids family they don't want the rest of the world knowing that they're maybe just dipping their toes in the space, exploring, looking into our full time participating and discretion that we offer.
Plus, the community of people that are seeking the things that they are is why we have so many people who don't necessarily fit under the banner of, you know, married dating, as it were. Yeah, no, I totally agree.
We like I said before, we've used Tinder and I've seen people that i've known personally and i was like and they like kind of made a couple's profile basically you know they wanted to find like a single female and i was always kind of shocked that they put it out there so publicly when they were pretty private individuals so i think if you are going to do something like that in your town and you're not using a swinger website, I can see where Ashley Madison will come across a little bit more discreet, in my opinion.
And just to your point, because you mentioned about photos, often you won't find people putting their face on their public profile, which is very, you know, the opposite of most recent dating sites.
But again, we built the system so that there's a public image bank that each profile profile has but there's a private image bank that each profile has and if you know you start a conversation with somebody and you vet them and there's some trust established i can send my key to you and then you can look at my pictures get a better sense of what i look like but i can then retract that key at any point in time so that you only have limited access and you can't screen cap uh the images of in that type of thing.
That way, you have a little bit more control as an Ashley Madison member book, who you're revealing your true self to, because again, discretion matters in these spaces. And correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to remember when I uploaded our picture, but there's like built-in filters that you could cover your face or blur out stuff, right?
Which for me, I techie and i don't know how to do that kind of stuff dan would be the one that would know how to do it i found it refreshing because i was like oh well that's easy i could just cover this spot or like i think there was one where you could like put a mask on which i thought was kind of cool so i found that nice because i'm not very good at that no you're right that's exactly what's exactly what we've done. We've given a lot of tools to manage the types of photos you want to put.
So if you want to put your face on the public football, we have a lace mask that matches sort of the lace mask that you'll find on our homepage that are the models wearing in the shush image, which is our sort of iconic image.
But you can put that and manipulate it, turn it, twist it, increase size, decrease size to fit your image so that there is an element of expression or blur of the image so you can give a sense of maybe it's your figure maybe it's your face and that gives you know somebody looking at your profile an idea to match against you know what your profile has and i think that also goes it's interesting because so much of what online dating is boils down to a visual aesthetic, and people rarely actually bother to read the profiles. On our site, you kind of have to read the profiles.
I find the more successful members are the ones who do take the time to both write a detailed profile, and it doesn't need to be a war and peace-length story.
It just needs to be detailed enough to give you a sense of what you know who i am and what i'm looking for and those ones are also likely that more likely to read other people's profiles so when they're reaching out is not the hey because hey is not a great way to introduce yourself on a dating platform no it's not uh okay but before we take a break uh i just want to give you one more so was there anything from the netflix documentary anything that uh happened in the ashley madison history that you want to set straight i think before we go on break and then we come back and we start talking about the ashley madison of now and maybe where it's going yeah no i think like i said the biggest accusations we have are the the bots and you know, the lack of females.
And I think I've addressed those. And, you know, ultimately, you're going to have different ideas around the nature of our business based on your morals, your ethics, and what you're looking for. My job is not to go out and convince you that we're the world's greatest site.
My job is to help you understand what's actually happening there so you can make an informed decision about whether or not actually medicine is the right for you um and like i said you know very charismatic people were in that uh documentary i would suggest that some might have aggrandized their roles their value to the organization and some of the stories they may have been telling got it all right now let's take a little break and hear from the partners and sponsors of the Swing Nation podcast.
And then when we get back, I want to hear about what happened since the documentary, since the hack, what's been happening for the last 10 years and where is this site going? We're going to take a break and we'll be right back, guys. Lacey, the question we get asked on social media and tiktok more than any other question is how do i find lifestyle people lifestyle events lifestyle parties yeah lifestyle cruises yeah um lifestyle people i think i already said that yeah in my area basically anything need. How do I find it? You need to get on a swinger website and SDC is one of our favorites.
It's really big here in the Southeast U.S. for sure. Yeah. And it has all the clubs listed. It has all the parties listed. You can find information on cruises. You can find our podcasts on SDC. Yeah, you can.
And if you want to try it completely risk-free we have a free trial link for you yeah so how do people go and find that free trial link if you go to the swing nation dot info and scroll to the bottom you're going to find some of our favorite products and brands and you're just going to click that link and go straight there all right if you guys want to find lifestyle people in your area go sign up for sdc completely risk-free yeah um and see if it works for you i agree all right guys go check it out lacy we talk a lot on this podcast about lifestyle insurance and how it's it's very common for almost every male in the lifestyle to use some form of ED medication to make sure when that time comes that he cooperates.
So we highly recommend if you need ED medication that you go to Shameless Care for that. And there's a couple different reasons why. One, they're one of the cheapest on the market, right? So some of these other companies, they mark that prescription way up. Shameless Care is one of the cheapest. And the second thing I like that they do is they don't walk you into a subscription. Yeah, it's really cool because when it's like almost time, like they think you might be needing some, they actually email you and say, hey, do you need a refill? If you don't respond, you just don't get any.
But if you want some, could just respond back to them right there's other brands where you you know you pay this monthly subscription and they send you ed medication the next thing you know you got 15 bottles of ed medication sitting around the house um and your card is still getting charged monthly and then to try to cancel it it's a big pain in the butt with shameless care you don't have to worry about any of that, right? So there's no subscription. You just go to their website. You order it when you need it. If you don't need it, you don't order it again until you do need some more.
So I love that. Shameless Care, lifestyle friendly, right? They got doctors in all 50 states that they know about performance anxiety. They know you're in the lifestyle. So go to shamelesscare.com forward slash TSN.
Get your ED medication subscription through a company that really understands the lifestyle so go to shamelesscare.com forward slash tsn get your ed medication subscription to through a company that really understands the lifestyle they do my favorite type of swinger is a safe swinger one that has done all the work before they even get to the club before they get to the party and they know that they are sti negative they've got it all all figured out before they walk in. So that way, when it's time to play, they don't even have to like skip a beat. They're just like, here are our results.
You can look at them on my phone or you can look them up for yourself. We were tested. Everything came back negative. We're good to go. That's my favorite type of swinger. What about you, Dan?
I'm'm kind of one of those guys if you want to fuck like a porn star you probably should get tested like a porn star if we've learned anything over the last four years of doing this podcast is not all tests are the same the tests you're getting at your doctor might not be all the tests that you need if you're going to be actively participating in this lifestyle yeah if you go to your doctor and say i need a full panel std sti test that's whatever they think a full panel is there's not like a rule book that says you should check for these 10 things or 12 things heck we've been to some doctors and they have no idea what even should be tested for and what shouldn't so your best bet is to use i know my status because they know we're swingers they know what we're up to they've been testing porn stars for years so they know how to get you tested and ready to go and have lots of fun yeah they really are the gold standard in sti testing um for the adult industry and swingers we're fucking a lot like like porn stars yeah so those are probably the same tests that you need to be getting so head on over to I know my status get signed up if you're in the Florida or Vegas or Orlando area there's an office you can go in and get tested and you get your results back as soon as the same day if not they have draw labs located across the country yeah where you can go and you can get tested um and same they'll mail your result or your your labs into to the lab and you'll get your results back um i think you know as soon as a day or two depending on how yeah it's pretty quick the mail takes it's worth notating if you go to your family doctor and they're testing for basically everything, but maybe they're missing like a mouth swap or an engine test.
Some of the newer things that, you know, maybe our family doctors are not testing for. Yeah, testing for. You can go to I Know My Saddest and just purchase those tests. You don't have to go and spend, you know, a lot of money to pay for the whole thing. You don't have to do that.
You can just go and be tested for the things that you need right yeah and you could even you know if you want to you could call them and say hey these are the tests i get from my local doctor what am i missing yeah and i'm sure they they would have a conversation with you about what they think you should be getting tested for and then you can order just those tests and go get those done we had a friend not long ago that somebody that they were engaging with wanted her to be tested for M-Gen. They just go to their local doctor. They know they're swingers. It's not a big deal.
And so they went to a draw facility in their town and just were tested for that one test. And, of course, it came back negative, no issues, and they were good to play. Right. So go check out iknowmystatus.com. Go get tested like a porn star today so that we can play safe at our next event. Yeah. All right, guys. All right, guys, welcome back. Welcome back. Thank you for listening to our sponsors. We love our sponsors. We do.
So we're back here with Paul talking all ashley madison so kind of on the front side of the break uh we kind of talked about all the news right all the things you probably heard about ashley madison between the netflix documentary and and the hack and all the things that uh i think everybody knows yeah now i think the rest of the story is kind of where a lot of people don't know yeah um so let's you alluded to it a little bit on the the front side of the break but ashley madison is now bigger now post hack post netflix than it's ever been is that that's accurate paul absolutely so at the 2015 mark we had a little over 30 million members um from from when we launched in 2002 and now we've had we have more than 90 million members worldwide and you know that shows you that the growth wasn't stymied by what happened in 2015 i think it could have been i mean every talking head and pundit at times that this is the death knell for our business uh but like i like i mentioned what they didn't know or didn't want to believe is that millions of people around the world coveted what we offer discretion to indiscretion to a community of like minded people.
And the interest in it, you know, so long as we could repair the trust and show them that we were taking some of the issues that were exposed in 2015 seriously.
You know, I believe fundamentally that business had a return to growth opportunity growth opportunity and the fact that i'm standing here talking to you 10 years later says we were right um and it's super exciting because you know i sort of phrased it as this is actually 2.0 and we're very much now in the works of planning and executing ashley madison 3.0 which makes me super excited because i think we have a road uh ahead that is long and very diverse yeah it is it is interesting to me i you know once i watched that netflix show i'm like well they must be they must be gone this must be they must be done i think i actually googled the website and it's like nope it's it's still here and i think it said like like, you know, 90 million users or something like that.
I'm like, not only is it still here, but it's tripled in size. Yeah. And so, you know, once the whole thing happened, you guys just fixed the problems and then started telling everybody, hey, look, you know, we've addressed the issues, but we're still here and we're still offering this service.
And now it's new and better and improved is that i mean is that the message like how did you recover i love how you make it sound so easy um no in a sense yeah you're not wrong i mean what we had to do is we had to start from a position of security and privacy so we hired a chief privacy officer we hired a whole new security team who built a completely different approach to how we manage data because we you know we really needed to show our members um that you know what we were doing was something that they could trust because they're they're sharing some of the most intimate messages thoughts ideas and sometimes images of their life on our platform and to do so requires high level of trust.
And so it's been a lot of work and it was a lot of slow building. Like the first two or three years post 2015 were tough. You know, the signups had declined dramatically as, as one would think we had to prove to our internal partners that our business was right sized and appropriate. And we were dealing with all the issues that were exposed.
And I think it was slowly and surely, one community at a time, we rebuilt that trust and shown to the world that despite their desire that we not exist, and I understand why that is, we are a legitimate business with a legitimate service with millions of people around the world who are deeply interested in what we offer because it gives them a connection to a community of people that is very hard to find elsewhere and because we're really good at what we do i think you know we've got a platform that enables people to use it in a way that gives them a bit of control gives allows them to manage their levels of discretion and then find people who are really interesting it's interesting so is your motto still what is it uh life is short have an affair having a having an affair right um so from personal experience and lacy can attest to this too there is something hot about having sex with somebody that's married yeah there is right and it's while we're in the last Thank you.
From personal experience, and Lacey can attest to this too, there is something hot about having sex with somebody that's married. Yeah, there is. Right? And it's why we're in the last zone. And we've all done it. Yeah. And I think we've all done it, well, me and Lacey do it now openly and we're everybody's nose. And what's the word you use for that? Disclosed non-monogamous. Yeah. Right. So we're disclosed now. Yeah.
But we've done the undisclosed thing we have yeah and there is something hot about that not with each other but we have right in previous relationships right yeah and listen that's why we had to say why is it it is the taboo of it it's the the more we're told not to do something think about it from this perspective you know in the 10 commandments adultery is the only sin mentioned twice you know it is so uh taboo in our society our culture our religion our governments our families all tell us not to do it yet monogamy is actually not a a common occurrence in in the natural world there are very very few animals and ultimately we're just a slightly evolved animal i think um who follow monogamous practices i think penguins are like maybe one of the two or three animals that actually truly do it and so the idea that you're going to mate with somebody in your let's say your early mid-20s and the fact that we're living well in their 70s 80s if not 90s and that person's going to be all and end all for the next 70 years that's crazy to me right like that's that's a hard burden for one person to take on the idea i'm going to be your best friend your lover your co-parent your financial partner your social partner all those things on one person's shoulders and so this idea of stepping out of your marriage can be really fascinating particularly again you think about from the hollywood perspective some of our favorite movies and storylines and tv shows all center around on infidelity so you know i know we get the criticism because we're out front we're out there you know life is your own habit affair but at the same time you know everybody's watching it everybody's reading about it i mean people love the idea of sex and taboo sex.
And there's a reason Fifty Shades of Grey was so popular. And trust me, it wasn't because it was well written. You know, so this business is serving a need because society desires it. And it's interesting. One of the things that I love about my job is we get to do research with academics around the world because they want to study the nature of cheating, the nature of infidelity and monogamy. And it's very hard to do that from a general population standpoint because people lie to themselves. But if you've already signed up to Ashley Madison, you've kind of already indicated who you likely are.
And one of my favorite studies was from a professor dr alicia walker from the university of missouri she wanted to know why women cheat versus why men and so she came to us and asked permission to uh research do research with our membership and we're like okay yeah this sounds great so this was on her own accord we didn't pay for this and her research which is widely available in books that she's written now is fascinating to me because it completely flips the script 80 of the women in this study were you know obviously on national magazine were in sexless or orgasmless marriages and 80 80 but and they would tell you that they love their spouse they love their family they weren't looking to blow it all up, but nor were they willing to compromise and live an unfilled sex life.
And so they outsourced their intimate needs to Ashley Madison, which allowed them to, you know, go back to be, and I've heard these words almost to a T, be a better mother, lover and wife because of their affair. And, you know, that really flips people's brains when they hear these words.
What woman could possibly that and then you know terry you're probably going yeah i know a lot of women who've said exactly that um you know before they've they've opened up or before they've you know taken sort of the leap to a different space but was far more fascinating where i get a lot more pushback is on why men cheat and the majority of men in this research were seeking emotional validation which is really interesting because you know if you were to ask a thousand american I don't know.
and the majority of men in this research were seeking emotional validation which is really interesting because you know if you were to ask a thousand american men you know why do men cheat why do women cheat they would always say that oh women are emotional and men are just horny when they get laid it's not the truth and it's funny i'm a little bit older than you folks so you know there used to be this old trope around that sex workers would say you know men sometimes hire me just to talk and everybody like what that's a bunch of bullshit that doesn't make any sense yeah guess what it's absolutely true because we live in a world where you know aesthetic compliments towards women are expected to the normal you know tear your hair looks great oh that sweater looks nice on you so on and so forth but rarely do does that dynamic exist on the other side like you don't necessarily walk the house i'm not criticizing you but using you as you don't go hey dan that the plaid you know really brings out the brown in your eyes you know you know you look hot with your hat backwards these type of aesthetic compliments are not giving me because we're supposed to be stoic we supposed to suppress our emotions.
And so men often end up in what is a cold relationship and they feel unwanted, undesired. Instead of letting their 40 years old, two kids, they're stressed out at work, and they're not getting that emotional connection that is important to them, whether they recognize it or not.
And they end up on Ashley Madison seeking that very sort of dynamic of dynamic now it will manifest itself off often enough through a physical interaction but they need that emotional connection in order to go through with that which again i think most people would be very very surprised to find out yeah you're basically saying the opposite you're saying the women need the physical but it makes sense to me orgasms and the men need that emotional. Well, and two things. One, I saw that when I just played with Ashley Madison, you know, got online and was looking at profiles.
I saw quite a few women, I said that in the first half, that just said exactly what he said. I've got a great life, a great husband. I just need to have sex with someone.
You know know I need to to get off um but you know we to kind of piggyback what you just said and we've talked about this and it's something that on this podcast we don't really talk about as much we talk about if you want to be in the lifestyle you go to your partner you talk to him about your wants and needs and you explore this together but unfortunately a lot of people find the lifestyle because one of the partners cheated. And then through communication and through talking things out, they kind of turn to the lifestyle to kind of fit some of these needs. And I think it works sometimes.
I think sometimes it can blow up if you're not, you know, if you've not communicated. It's not the way we would advise you to know, but it happens. We know we have friends that have that are now successful in the lifestyle and are living a great marriage through it started through a divorce. No, I think you're right.
I think, you know, at some point, you know, if you're in a long term relationship and you you hit this where somebody cheats you basically you have a few options there right you can either fix it you know to get divorced and separate or you can fix it and sometimes that fixing it means i have needs desires fantasies and wants that aren't being fulfilled in this relationship what's the way that we can fulfill those together and then sometimes that is you know non-monogamy yeah it's interesting we work with a marriage therapist um named dr tammy Thank you.
a way that we can fulfill those together and then sometimes that is you know non-monogamy yeah it's interesting we work with a marriage therapist um named dr tammy nelson and she's actually coined those type of affairs as can opener fix because sometimes an individual will intentionally uh get caught for the purposes of forcing that hard conversation because they might have told their spouse listen i'm interested in this want to explore this or I'm unsatisfied. And the partner is either not listening, unwilling, unable, whatever the reason is, it doesn't nothing changes.
And so the individual who is seeking change goes out and has an affair with the intent of getting caught to say, look, I'm really serious. If you don't do what I need, I will get it elsewhere. But I want you. I want you involved.
your point there like yeah that often can lead to well maybe then we should look at an open relationship and what does that look like and there was actually a great memoir written last year called open and the writer was a you know she was in her mid-40s she was seeking something different in her life and she wanted to explore open relationship with her so she sat and chatted with them and you know it's interesting Ashley Madison was part of the beginning of their journey simply because of the discretion that they that we offer because they didn't want the rest of the world to know that they were parents they were established in their careers those type of things and so the reasons how people get into lifestyle are I mean just as varied as to why people cheat but it's not surprising to me that there's probably a significant portion of people who ended up in an open type relationship because one partner had an affair and forced you know what is a difficult conversation i agree with you daniel like that's not the best way to go about it but unfortunately it does happen quite a bit it does yeah and those conversations are hard i can't dan and i met as swingers so we never really had to have those conversations but i can think back to previous relationships that i was in i can't imagine having to like say those words out loud like i want to sleep with someone else i want to try this that seems very scary and very hard and almost getting caught in something seems like an easier way out no no 100 especially you know we live in the south which you know is pretty conservative christian area so like you just don't go to your spouse and and say those kind of things or even somebody you were dating or something like that it's more socially acceptable to have an affair than it is to be a swinger to be honest with with you, which is crazy.
But it's just true. Well, for the men, at least, in American society. Let's be honest. To this day, women are punished far more for having an affair than men do. It's not as bad as it used to be. We're not literally in the scarlet letter any longer, but we're not that far off from it, quite frankly.
I i have a question for you how much do you guys see people that are seeking same-sex exploration so people that are essentially wanting to explore their sexuality because i know in in our space especially here recently we've seen a lot more men open up about being bisexual and want to explore that within this community so i would imagine if you're married and you're a man or maybe even a woman and thinking about same-sex um interactions maybe you're not comfortable talking to your partner that maybe you turn to something like ashley madison to try to seek that out um i know it's very popular on the internet for guys to you know get on craigslist and grinder and things like that to try to find well the reality is we've had uh same sex as a you know male seeking male or female seeking female as an option for your profile as long as i've been with the company i'm fairly sure it probably was uh part of the founding principles in in part because you know we're from canada i think we're the third country in the world to legalize same-sex marriages so we're a little bit more progressive comparatively um so it's it's part of the business has been for as long as i can remember it's not a huge function but we've always offered it and prior to i at least i remember the u.s legalizing gay marriage we did very much market towards men who either were you know in closeted relationships or you know not out yet uh to use our service for that very reason so it's part and parcel of of what Ashley Madison offers and it's part of the business I think that will has lots of room to grow for that for just as you said Daniel there are people who are exploring whether it's bisexuality uh or just same-sex relationships regardless of how they describe it but they don't necessarily know how far they want to go nor do they want the rest of the world to to see them and i think it's a space where ashley madison really does have some good options for them yeah that's interesting and it's definitely an area we've seen within our the swinger community that seems like it's starting people are starting to be comfortable being more open about it used to be much more discreet i think there's always been a lot of like especially by males in the lifestyle but i feel like in the last few years have become a little bit more accepting to where they can openly share that instead of having to wait and talk about it behind a closed door once you've already agreed to meet for something else yeah and i know you know back in the day you go on craigslist those were definitely sections that were very very busy on those types of sites so i can imagine it spills over to you well that's and that's dangerous too like meeting someone like on craigslist or i know there's like and even in our town there's like local places where like gay men will go in you know if you go there like that can be dangerous so i feel like something like ashley madison or any other website that is secure is is gonna off a little bit well i guess that's a good question though so as far as ashley madison goes is there do you guys try to implement safety how do you how do you yeah absolutely it's core to the whole business trust and safety we have a whole team dedicated to you know trying to limit block and and eradicate you know false profiles people who are on the platform for wrong reasons.
And whether that's you're showing your OnlyFans account or something even more nefarious, we have a team dedicated to ensuring that we have a whole FAQ section to give our members guidance in terms of handle-handle requests. So for sake of argument, you come on our platform and someone says, oh, you need to get the Ashley Madison verified badge. That doesn't exist.
You know, you don't go off our site to get, you know if for sake of argument you come on our platform and someone says oh you need to get the ashley madison verified badge that doesn't exist you know you don't go off our site to get you know some sort of third-party service to to verify you you can you can verify your your profile with us with the government id if you want and that's another part of it so if you go on and see someone with a blue check mark on their profile that means they have identified identified themselves through a service we offer using government ID, which gives you a higher level of confidence that that individual is exactly who they say they are.
And so, yeah, we spend a lot of time and resources ensuring that the people you're meeting with or connecting with on our platform are authentic and there for the right reasons, that's critical for to the the success of our business and to the trust of our membership yeah yeah i don't know no because i mean it's scary to meet people online and then meet them in real person that's just a yeah a scary experience to go through when lacy's pretty familiar with and probably has done more than that's what i just i tell the story when i first started in lifestyle and go and meet like well even before the lifestyle i was pretty active on like dating sites and twinger what i would go and meet people like at hotel rooms and their houses and stuff and i tell dan all the time i'm like i'm so lucky i didn't get like the head or something.
Like, I was, that's pretty risky for a female to just walk into someone's hotel room. But I got lucky. Nobody killed me, thank God. That's literally how we met. Yeah. She walked into my hotel room. I did. That was our first date. Did you know she was walking into your hotel room? I did, yeah. Okay, good. We were, we'd been talking online, you know. Yeah. So. Yeah.
But I could have not been me have not been me well i think you know i'm a person who's um i'm no longer married so i i've been dating for a while now and it's i find it fascinating the conversations i have with some of the women in terms of the faux pas of dating and the lack of authenticity in certain individuals is is bewildering to me um if you don't have hair don't put pictures of yourself with hair up and if you're not six foot don't say six foot um they seem like really easy things but people do really weird and odd things all the time as it relates to to dating and i'm sure you can tell more better stories than i know so this is kind of off topic but just out of curiosity do you get pushback because you work for Ashley Madison?
Like when you meet people, do you they assume that you're this like dirty dog who cheats on everybody? I mean, I don't know your history or anything, but just I probably would judge you even though I shouldn't because we get judged, too. So I know how that feels. But I'm just I guess I'm curious if you've experienced some of that.
Yeah, I i know it's a great question i actually um i try to get it out in the conversations very early on so that there is an issue um you know i'm not going to waste anybody else's time for the most part um there's been a few that have you know declined to continue chatting once i disclose that and you know i get it not only do i work for the company i'm also out there publicly talking about it so you've got to weigh that in there um but others find it fascinating and i think that's the bigger aspect of our society that people want to know more about the space they want to know more not just anything to do with non-monogamy because it seems so counterintuitive to so many people but there's lifestyle open relationships um swinging like pick your topic people are fascinated and it's not necessarily because they're interested for their own individual pursuits but they just want to know what they don't know and they want to know is what i've heard true versus you know what i've seen on tv and you know like most things there's a bit of truth in a lot of that stuff but there's a lot more that isn't out there so let's get into that yeah no that's true we can relate to that yeah okay in the last five minutes here let's talk a little bit about the future you said you know you're foreseeing ashley madison what you referred to as 3.0 what does that look like um you guys are obviously the premier um company if you are married and you're looking to have a discreet affair uh or or maybe even if you're in an open relationship and looking to connect with other married people to explore your fantasies and things like that but what does ashley madison 3.0 look like i think you know it's going to be an expansion towards a lot more of the disclosed non-monogamous community and that you know it's a huge range between polyamory lifestyle swingers open relationship however you define it there's such a huge portion of that and unlike some of the other brands that are you know more in that space now we're still going to be predicated on discretion because we're going to be the brand that is you know know, there for people who aren't are not comfortable having their face as part of the profile.
Don't want the whole world and they're not ashamed of what they're doing. They're not, you know, afraid of it, but nor do they need the whole world to know about it. And so that discretion that we offer, we think is very enticing. And the fact that we have about 20 percent of our membership already there, we're not marketing to them, we're not building products specifically to them, yet we are now. And I think that's going to be where our future lies in discrete dating for people who don't want the rest of the world to know their business.
I think the internet for the past 20 plus years has been very much predicated on the idea of a very public persona. This is me. This is who I am.
And we're loud and proud and we talk and chat and we argue and debate but there's a segment of society that is fatigued from that it wants a little discretion wants a little privacy and i think that space is where we're going to thrive because it's been underlining our business success for the past 20 plus years and so if we continue down that road but offer that to more audiences who seek it for different reasons i think that's going to frame ashley madison 3.0 in a very different light yeah it's funny when you know when you guys reached out to us you know we're partnered with a lot of non-monogamous dating sites and swinger websites and stuff like that i had never thought of ashley madison as a non-monogamous dating site we honestly had a conversation like does this fit like our podcast and what our viewers will want to hear about but truthfully we sat down with you and started talking and it was a very interesting conversation like we left the conversation like thinking and like just i don't know it made us think about things a little bit differently right well I mean the truth is you know if you ask me personally if I think you should disclose or not disclose if you're not monogamous to your partner I think you should disclose yes at the same time I've not disclosed to my own partners or engaged with people that aren't disclosing to their partners.
So I'm very much a who are we to judge, right? It's really up to you as an individual. You know your situation. I mean, we know people that were, you know, their partners are sick or, you know, are going through some kind of medical thing or there's a million reasons why you might seek out non-monogamy.
And it's too hard to blanket and say that's right or that that's wrong i think it's really up to the individuals to decide whether it's right or wrong for them and because ultimately they're going to be the ones that suffer the consequences if there's some kind of fallout from that um but looking at ashley madison with 90 million users yeah for sure yeah it's probably the biggest non-monogamy dating site that there is yeah and we get hundreds of thousands of new members every month and i don't see that you know slowing down anytime soon and all i say to people is use it in the way it's intended be as forthright as you are comfortable and honest in your communications which i know sounds again ironic given the nature of the platform but you will find that there are people very much like you looking for what you're looking for and it's an amazing like some of the member stories i've heard of these are always fascinating i just love the way people use the platform and the outcomes they've had uh because it's so rewarding to hear quote-unquote success stories as it were yeah yeah okay so if people are interested in um in ashley madison and they want to learn more um what should they do paul well the easiest thing as you go you sign up it's free to sign up men and women and then you can build out your plot your profile take a look around and then men if you're you know you see profiles that interest you you can buy 9.99 can get you a 50 credit packages to start and you can explore all the features we have and and see who's out there for you and you know like i said life is short have an affair so there's a lot of opportunities it can be a lot of fun for you bring your partner along there you go bring your partner along yeah and it's ashleymadison.com, right?
You got it, sir. Okay. So if you're interested, go check out Ashley Madison and, you know, another way to connect with non-monogamous people. Yep. Well, we appreciate you coming on, Paul, answering all the hard questions.
You know, when Paul reached out to us, I said, okay, Paul, is there stuff we can't talk about he's like you can literally ask me anything which i was to be completely you know honest i was pretty impressed with that um so we appreciate you coming on we appreciate you kind of going through some of the nitty-gritty uh stuff that's happened with ashley madison and i think it's gonna be interesting to our listeners and i i would assume some of our listeners might scroll on over to ashley madison and see on that website. Yeah. Thank you so much. This was a great conversation, guys. Yeah, I agree.
All right. And I think with that, in a world full of apples. Be the pineapple. Be the pineapple, guys. Bye. Bye. If you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us, leave a five-star review wherever you're listening. If you want to see more of our content, you can find links to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, OnlyFans, and more in the show notes. Come join the conversation with us and other Swinger content creators on our Swinger Society Discord server. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at theswingnation at gmail.com. Make, email them to us at theswingnation at gmail.com.
Make sure you head on over to theswingnation.net and keep up to date on all things Swing Nation. We thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time. Goodbye.
