Join host Jason in this intriguing episode of That Other Lifestyle Podcast as he welcomes Xiggy, an experienced California attorney and lifestyle enthusiast. Dive into a captivating discussion that uncovers the complexities of ethical non-monogamy the lifestyle. Xiggy provides an insightful perspective on the legal aspects of the lifestyle, emphasizing the importance of consent, privacy, and agency within the lifestyle.
Together, Jason and Xiggy explore the stereotypes surrounding the LS and the need for rebranding, proposing "PolySocial" as a new term. They also delve into the intricacies of consent, the potential consequences of violating it, and the vital role of communication in lifestyle interactions. This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the legal and social dimensions of consensual non-monogamy.
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Transcript
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Wherever you are, I hope you have blue skies. Welcome to That Other Lifestyle Podcast. I am your host, Jason. Leave Vanilla behind as we talk to the swinging attorney. This podcast is for adults only.
We'll be diving into adult and sexual topics with plenty of colorful language, so it is not safe for work.'re under 18 this is not the place for you this show is all about exploring the lifestyle and ethical non-monogamy and it's open to everyone no matter your background gender identity expression or your personal truth while i do my best to use inclusive language you might hear terms like husband wife or partner for simplicity's sake this show is for everyone lifestyle vanilla or.
You want to connect, you can send me an email to host at thatotherlifestyle.com or visit my website, thatotherlifestyle.com. Everyone is welcome here because the lifestyle is so much more than you think. One more disclaimer before we get started today. While my guest today is an attorney, he is not your attorney. So if you have specific questions, consult with an attorney in your own particular neck of the woods. And with that said, I am so happy to introduce today Ziggy. Ziggy, how are you doing, man? Hey, I'm doing great. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Thank you for hanging out with us today. So you are an attorney. You're an attorney out in california yeah i'm a california attorney only so the law may be different in your particular state uh or country so don't depend on this as legal advice yes that was the thing i want to you know stress with the disclaimer this is not specific legal advice for you this is more just a general overview of us talking about the legality of swinging, the legality of ethical non-monogamy, what we do.
And then at some point, we're going to talk about the language because that is just always a hot topic, talking about the words that we use. So Ziggy, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself and let's rock and roll. Okay. I'm originally from Boston, came out to California withia with uh with the united states air force i was in the army previously so i've had many years of service in the military started practicing law in the early 90s um while i was still in the air force i took the bar exam and then decided to get out when they were having a big drawdown.
So I got out and started practicing family law. And I was working with a family law specialist. So I went up against some of the largest family law firms in Southern California. And I learned a lot.
I focused mostly on child custody matters, which is where the real blood and guts of practicing law in that that arena is that's the gnarly stuff yeah and uh that's where i picked up a lot of the insights that i have into um our our lifestyle from the family law and after after getting sick and tired of arguing with people um i decided to go into immigration law and i practiced that along with family law until very recently and i did some litigation and business type stuff real estate as well so i've had a general broad background and then so you are you are in the lifestyle. Yes, sir. Yes.
So what is your background with the lifestyle? How did you end up in our particular hobby, lifestyle, thing that we do so well? I came to the game very, very late. Only a few years ago, in fact.
I came to the Bdsm gateway just looking for something different decided to check that out and i like the way they operated um one of the before we got to do anything um or learn anything we had to take a consent class and i thought that was that that really made a lot of sense particularly as a lawyer because i said well wait a minute these people are injuring each other on purpose uh consensually of course but still you know people could get hurt here particularly when there's more advanced stuff which i never got into personally but you know everybody got a thing um whatever y'all play needles all that kind of crazy that's the line there you found it that's the line for me Everybody got a thing.
Whatever y'all enjoy, it's fine with us. Night, play, needles, all that kind of crazy stuff. That's the line. There you found it. That's the line for me. I respect it. That's the line for me. That's what I love about BDSM because they do have such a high focus on consent and safety. And there's a lot of stuff that the lifestyle community could learn from BDSM. Absolutely.
And I'm really pushing for that my particular avenue was more the shibari the rope play because there was some art to it that was what i was really attracted to was that that art aspect of shibari i had some uh background in in japan i was i lived there for a while my uh my wife was japanese my son's mother's japanese i i became exposed to some of it while i was there later on i started investigating that's how that was the gateway let's just let's just throw out the banger question right off the back so jump in hard jump in heavy as soon as we get started swinging as the traditional definition we can say the connotation behind it two cis heteronormative couples having sex is it illegal no that was an easy answer well but i i'm gonna i'm gonna put a big asterisk there yeah it depends depends on where you are in the world depends on where you are in life uh let me deal with one of the the topics that i that i actually came across and had to do a little research on was the military the military is is a separate jurisdiction by jurisdiction i mean that's where the court has authority people in the military are not under the regular everyday jurisdiction if you're on a military base or doing specifically military type things you're under the ucmj uniform code of military justice which is in uh in it's one of the federal laws and they have very specific laws down to laws governing your behavior indeed your sexual behavior sodomy i haven't checked recently unless they've changed anything but sodomy of of any type was still an offense uh subject to a five-year term of imprisonment adulteryultery is another one that's on the books, unless it's been changed recently, is subject to significant jail time when we consider it a felony.
Is there swinging going on on a military basis? Oh, absolutely. But not that I've been to participate myself, but I'm sure there is just like everywhere else. There's probably 4% of the population I'll see you next time. absolutely but not that i've been to participate myself but i'm sure there is just like everywhere else is probably four percent of the population that are into consensual non-monogamy of some some form of another yeah i can hear that number yeah based on the stats i've seen right so out of every 10 people there's four that's enough to get down.
So yeah, you can assume there's at least 4% of the military population. Technically, they could be charged with offenses, conduct unbecoming, which is a more general charge, conduct unbecoming an officer, conduct unbecoming an NCO. They could find a way to hang you if they were looking. If they really want. Yeah, that's my opinion. A lot of places, a lot of legal jurisdictions, if they really wanted to find something, they would.
And I know the sodomy laws are still on the books in a lot of places and jurisdictions just as so they have an excuse to go after certain populations of people because they don't, they, you know, the, the city leaders don't approve of a particular person having sex with another particular person and they don't like it. So they're going to find a law for you to violate in order for them to get you. Yeah. And so, and so very, until just now, in fact, people that were, there was, there were people that were discharged from the military on the basis of being homosexual.
That was considered not appropriate conduct for a military member until very recently. Many people had their careers ruined. In fact, until the late 70s, probably the 80s, there were active hunts for people that could be gay. Not that you said anything, not that you did anything.
They would actually have military law enforcement personnel seeking out members that were gay and removing them because they considered them a security threat i guess the idea was if you were gay and this conduct was unlawful you could be blackmailed therefore you a potential security threat one of the one of the famous stories is they would add people one of the ways gay people were recognizing each other would they would call themselves a friend of dorothy I heard of that yeah Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz so there were actually people military People were recognizing each other where they would call themselves a friend of Dorothy.
I heard of that. Yeah. Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. So there were actually people, military, uh, intelligence and military police officials looking for this Dorothy. That's awesome. I heard those stories that that's in the military sense for all of us civilians out here in the rest of the world.
Well, as best as you can can talk about it the legality of swinging and what we do i mean it's it's something that people struggle with on a wrapping their heads around it legally because could it be adultery if it's all consensual though and there's no harm i yeah it that's still problematic in many areas. They still in some states and some jurisdictions have laws on the books against adultery. It just depends on how law is written. Do they enforce those laws? Obviously not because we haven't seen any trials for adultery in recent years.
That's kind of a thing in the past, but the laws still remain on the books. Where I would look at it in terms of being in the United States is sex is a means of expression, just like speech, just like writing, just like dancing is considered a form of expression.
Therefore, does the state have a right to interfere with your right of self-expression first amendment i would say no and in most states i think that would be the answer unless of course we have some change in the zeitgeist and that makes that uh less favorable so i know i have friends who for work it is an issue their participation in the lifestyle for their jobs because and this exists if y'all don't know this exists it happens they have morality clauses in their contracts of employment so that is a big sticking point for a lot of people I know because they don't want to get outed.
They don't want this to come out because they could potentially lose their jobs. How that's some heavy stuff. How do people deal with that? Is there protections? Is there any way to something? That's, that's the really tricky area. Because is your conduct immoral? Some, and that depends on how that clause is written. Remember when, when we're talking about employment in this, in this line, we're talking about contractual employment. You're actually signing a document.
So what you're doing is you are giving up some of your right and you're being compensated for that hopefully but you are signing away some of your rights you're saying i will not wear certain clothing i will not do certain things that may be speech that may be behavior that may be lifestyle you know if you're if you're um say a reverend of the church and you work for a large religious organization they may have a morals clause so you can't be engaging in making pornographic films because that would violate the morality clause it depends on the wording of that particular clause it could be just like a lot of other conduct, which you conduct, you can stand out on a corner and yell, yell, uh, epithets at people if you, as a, as a free American, but if you contractually agree not to do that in order not to embarrass an employer that you may be associated with, they have every right to fire you.
Taking it a step further, you mentioned standing on the street corner. That is something that I am, not that I'm going to do that, but you're standing on the street corner, you're yelling stuff out. To me, is that the same as social media? Because a lot of people put some dumb shit on social media or they accidentally out themselves or they accidentally out somebody else.
They put dumb shit on social media or they accidentally out themselves or they accidentally out somebody else they put dumb shit on social media so is there protections on the internet for that sort of behavior or is it still all fall under that no no as it's been stated many times even by by the the heads of the social media companies the social media is the public square. You put it out there, it basically stays there forever, and it's for everybody to see. It's like you went over and wrote a, with a big Sharpie on a, on a board in the middle of the, the town hall.
I'm this, and this is my opinion. Okay. You wanted your opinion noticed it got noticed deal with the consequences govern yourself according because i think some people think that still in this day and age some people think there's anonymity on the internet and there is not you do and even if you know and i warn people about certain social media sites like facebook that even if you have a second profile, you have your vanilla regular one for your family, then you have a second spicy profile, you're still associated with that account in some way.
And at some point, the algorithm can just draw a connection between you and your third grade teacher, and that's it. Game over.
Absolutely, a lot of people have been been accidentally outed this way or suffered grave consequences because they basically put something out there and they thought it would oh well they won't find out where oh yeah well there's people out there that say hold my beer yeah that's right sir and i i see people not practicing good online hygiene and there are certain sites that i would consider safer than others like the dedicated adult sites that we all use those are safer they're not nothing on the internet is totally 100 safe but at least the whole audience there is together for one reason there's a paywall on it It's not just like Facebook and social media and you're just blasting out there for everybody to see.
Exactly. If you, if you really feel the need to do some of that, I suggest you do it within the community because other people have as much to lose as you do in terms of being placed in their behavior, placed in the public view where, where it can be judged and they don't particularly want to be judged. So use that same amount of caution, um, as you would, if you went to a house party, if you went to a house party and you saw your boss there, is that a problem?
Well, it could be a little bit embarrassing, but if your boss is there, he or she is there for the same reason you are guilty by a police official and they're rating a rating or something. So, you know, it's, it's a standoff, right? You both are engaged in the same behavior. So that's even steaming. But if you're out there posting it in the public and just think, oh, well, I'm wearing a mask. Well, there's ways of getting that mask off, buddy. And I would not take that chance if I were you. I caution people.
I'll see this, you know, we go to parties and big events and stuff and they'll take a group photo and you'll have like 50 people in this one picture. And I'm thinking, uh-uh, that's called evidence because we're all guilty by association. And if that one picture gets out, everyone in that picture, no matter if you're soft swap, no swap, full swap, whatever, people don't draw the distinction between our different things that we do. Can't think of a good word. No one draws a distinction. We're all guilty. We're all guilty of swinging. That's what they're thinking.
That's what the vanilla world is thinking when they see something like that. For people who do have their privacy violated without their consent of some sort, are there any protections, any legal ramifications, anything that people can do? Again, it would be state to state. It depends on your state's privacy laws. I'm in California, so the privacy protections here are somewhat decent. And there are certain situations where something like that would be actionable.
But in other states, again, especially a state that still has adultery on the books, it'd be very problematic.'s it's better to avoid the situation altogether the the analogy i i think is best is the use of cannabis california cannabis is is legal recreationally and medic but if you work for um in trans in the transportation industry or you know you you're a federal employee you're prohibited from doing so so you don't want to be associated with the use of cannabis if you're a federal employee and that's that's a condition of your employment you don't want that smoke so why why allow yourself to be photographed and you know a hot picture of you smoking, you know, hitting the bomb, even if you weren't doing it, why, why risk it?
It's better just to stay under the radar, avoid the judgment, avoid the problems. So let me ask a stupid question because, well, there are no stupid questions, but someone's probably thinking this, I know the answer.
If I'm a resident of one state in the U..s and i go to a party in a different state do the laws of the state the party i'm in apply or do my does my home state laws apply um in almost all circles since i can imagine the state you you're you are physically present in at that time would be be applicable the only things i could think of that could have outside repercussions or anything that had to do with somehow children being exposed or something like that and if that's the case you've got much bigger problems than what particular jurisdiction you're in buddy you got a night coming you bring up cannabis and i and I've seen it happen where people from California go to another state and they're like, oh, it's legal over here.
It's like, yeah, it ain't legal where you're at. And it's probably the same thing with the lifestyle. If you're crossing state lines, it's wherever you're at. That's where you need to be aware of what the hell the laws are. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. No before you go. No before you go. I like that a lot. And I don't know how prevalent this is. Non-disclosure agreements in the lifestyle. How do you feel about those? Like for a group, for a party, for a takeover, something like that. How do you feel about those NDAs? I don't think it's going to be really effective.
Number one, there's ironcladness of, if that's a word, ironcladness of NDAs has been challenged and kind of put to the side. Having that piece of paper floating around would be more problematic to me than any force and effect that the agreement could have. And what would be more, more problematic to me than any force and effect that the, the agreement could have. And what, what would, what would be the consequences? I agree not to declos what, or I'll pay a $10,000 fine. Uh, okay.
Even if that were the case, and even if you, you could enforce that somebody's career might be worth way more than $10,000, depending on which tax bracket you're in. For some people, $10,000 is a lot of money. For others, that's pocket change, particularly compared to the consequences of you're in. So I don't think that's going to be a really effective strategy. So shifting gears wildly because I do that all the time on the show. I want to talk about consent between couples. Now, I espouse the philosophy. If someone is too drunk to stand up, they're too drunk to consent.
And consent being a huge deal with what we do, because you have to have it. There's just no ifs, ands, or buts. No means no means no. Yes means yes until it means no. You have to have consent. When you're discussing doing things with another couple and there is full consent, everyone is sober, everyone is on board, they know what the deal is, they know what's going to be happening. Is that enough? The real factor to look at is, does the person that's consenting have agency? Agency meaning, can they act for themselves?
That's why we have laws for minors that vary differently from laws for adults. If you're a minor, can you buy a car as a minor? Yes, you can. But the problem is if you buy a car, drive it off the lot and get into an accident and smash it up, can the bank come after you for the balance of that loan? Nope. Why? Because you're under the legal age for signing contracts.
Therefore, you didn't have the agency to begin with to sign the contract you can't be held responsible that's the whole concept of being underage you're not responsible you don't have the mental capacity to actually agree to anything so any agreement you make is therefore void i can't be held to it if if if you're doing this with somebody that's inebriated better think again because that person does not have agency so anything they say that seems like consent cannot be relied on that's that's where a lot of sunday morning regret comes in because person says what happened last night oh that's the worst man that's that that you fucked up if someone asked that question you fucked up there you go and you know that's the time to to start saying a few prayers maybe look up some lawyers and figure out what your life's going to be about because that's problematic.
So my best advice, general advice would be don't play with inebriated people because plus for the guys, when you're too drunk, your dick don't work. That's nature's way of telling you don't do this. Exactly. Clear, clear signs and warnings. The straighter a person is the more valid that consent is. And let's talk about consent for a minute. One of the important things, really important. If you didn't get this when you were in high school or college, get it now. Consent is only good for the time it's given. It can be withdrawn at any second, any microsecond.
Once that consent is withdrawn, you're done. That's it. Anything you do out there is a violation of that consent and can be considered an assault. And, uh, you're dealing with sex. Do you want to be involved in anything related to a sexual assault? I think not. That's why I like the BDSM community, because when they talk about consent, they walk through everything about this is the guidelines. These are the boundaries. These are the rules.
I know in the lifestyle, though, sometimes people, some people may not be as thorough in discussing consent and discussing the game plan about what's going to happen. What would be your guidelines and recommendations for couples who are talking to another couple about the fuckery? What should be discussed? The key thing here is the word communication. Communication means a two-way exchange.
So if somebody's just goinghuh or i'm good with everything they started off lying to you nobody i don't like that because you know a sneaky finger up the butthole you said you were good with anything that's just surprising there you go so yeah you're not good with anything it's better to be specific about what you're into and what you're not into, particularly if you've got some bright lines and a lot of people do, um, particularly we can discuss it. Uh, people that have had a past with sexual abuse, they may have some triggers that will cause their behavior to shift one, eight, three 60.
you won't know what happened and that's because you didn't know what that trigger was but if you you pull it all of a sudden you went from having a party to having a nightmare because you've got a person that's really in trouble and they need to be attended to and it's important to be sensitive to those things so that conversation before you engage in any activity is very important and it should be part it should be part of the procedure that it's not a burdensome thing talk to the person find out what's going on first and you'll have much better time when you find out what that person wants and you'll be able to deliver where the person will go away from the experience, having got what they want, and they'll be more willing to give you what you want and what you desire as long as it's within their limits.
I don't think that's hard.
No, like you said, that should be part of the conversation when everyone is sober and has agency and has their head straight what is okay what is not okay and i it blows my mind because you know you do come across couples are like i you know everything is fine whatever it's fine let's just do it like i don't like that at the fuck all i certainly don't like that that's like you know going on a date and you don't want to have any conversation with the person oh yeah what do you do for it well i just go to an office uh okay um what do you like oh i like everything that means that person's not really engaged and doesn't want to have a conversation that's one of the skills our community has to build because that's what we're about is finding being open and finding out what what we desire and once we find out what we desire we can better understand what the other person desires and it makes it much easier to have that connection that's why a lot of people end up striking out continuously.
Boom. What? Oh, this lifestyle is terrible. I never get anything. Well, maybe it's because you're not taking the time to communicate what it is you want. It isn't all about how you look. Yeah, people have to be attracted, but they can be attracted to more than physical appearance. Most people are attracted to more than physical appearance. And a lot of that comes from that initial conversation. Hi. Okay. Now we got past the initial high. What are we going to talk about? You know, it can be direct. What are you guys into? You know, do you have any limits? No.
Uh, no, I'm sure you have some limits. So let's go a little bit more how can we how can we get there a little a little more efficiently by talking openly and honestly about what we want and what we don't want i love this advice this is good stuff so we're going to take a quick commercial break when we come back we're going to dive into the language of the lifestyle y'allall stay tuned. We're going to keep on talking to Ziggy. We'll be right back. Scarlin well-met listener, Jason summons you to his aid. The ASN Magazine Awards nominations are now open.
If you enjoy that other lifestyle, then nominate this amazing show for Best Entertainment podcast of the year you can vote once per day let us show our support for the best lifestyle podcast out there go to asn lifestyle magazine awards.com or check the show notes and vote now Risqué means slightly indecent or liable to shock, especially by being sexually suggestive. Risqué Lifestyle throws the premier lifestyle parties and takeovers in the southern USA that is slightly indecent, liable to shock, and very sexually suggestive.
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Because nothing ruins the mood like awkward guessing games. Oh, test today, play tomorrow. No worries, it's just pleasure. There are no waiting rooms, no judgment. Just fast, reliable STI testing so you can get back to what matters. Go to stdhero.com and use promo code TOL10 for 10% off your order. Get tested. Have fun. Welcome back, everyone. Today, I am talking to Ziggy the Swinging Lawyer. Look, just a disclaimer. We are talking about legal stuff here. Ben and Ziggy is an attorney, but he is not your attorney.
So wherever you are, you may want to go get specific legal advice for your particular area. Before we jump into something else juicy and fun, Ziggy has a story. And I'm really interested in hearing his story because I think it's going to illustrate just how weird our lives can get.
This is an actual case I had and um it relates to the bdsm lifestyle but it also crosses over into our lifestyle in our community and i consider bdsm part of our community as well because again it's consensual it's non-monogamy consensual non-monogamy i think that's us we all live in the same neighborhood we're all exactly you got you just got a different vibe so it's cool we just party a lot harder than other people what happened was i was looking into a matter that was brought to me about a loan and it turned out it wasn't actually a loan what it was were a number of stock transactions where this person was it's the the other party was expecting some monies from my client digging deeper it turned out that my client was actually in a non-consensual bdsm relationship we're what is that well it's it it's just like for us we we engage in consensual non-monogamy people that just go out and that are married and go out and pick up some woman or a sex worker are engaging in non-consensual non-monogamy okay i I gotcha.
Okay. Makes sense. So this guy was actually being controlled by the other person and it happened gradually over a period of years where it was, do me a favor, do me another favor. I'll do this for you. You do this for me.
But the relationship kind of morphed into where my client was actually this guy's and this is a term they use in bds of world was sub okay right he was a dom and my client ended up being a sub this actually went to the extreme where my my client was i don't want to say force because there was no actual physical force but mentally coerced into jumping off a balcony and breaking both his legs oh my oh oh oh and another line this this debt that this person was claiming was because my client had allowed him to take over his stock trend transactions. He was going to show him how to trade stocks.
And then he said, well, he made some strange deal. Well, if you make money in this, I get a percentage, but I don't have to pay you anything. If you lose money, a little one-sided. Yeah. That's some wild level of control there. One of the fortunate things was that the case just randomly ended up with me because I was working for a firm at the time, but I'm kink aware. So I kind of was able to suss out what was really going on here, even though my client wasn't aware of.
And this directly into where we are because there's a lot of people that are into non-monogamy it's just not consensual they're having affairs they've got a side girlfriend or they just you know go and have sex with somebody else outside their marriage and figure, well, nobody else knows. So it's cool. And that's not the kind of behavior that we advocate or actually even tolerate. We want everyone to know what's going on. We want to be open and honest in our relationships as much as humanly possible. As I always say, cheating is one of the cardinal sins of the lifestyle.
I'm going to have to change that to non-monogamy because that's wild. And that, that opens up bigger umbrella term. Consensual non-monogamy. Yeah. As opposed to consensual. Consensual meaning everybody agrees. I agree. My wife or my partner agrees that I can do this. The other person agrees. And if they have a significant other, they agree. Everybody is on board with this. Everybody can agree. That can, in certain circumstances, and this is really more in the polyamory community, that can be done by contract.
if you're in the lifestyle and you're getting married, one of the things that you may want to consider is a marital settlement agreement that includes terms related to that. It doesn't have to be public.
That's, that's a document that you can have prepared and signed and witnessed and nobody outside the community needs to know about it but in the case something you know people do weird things when they get divorced particularly when there's children involved they sometimes they pull a nuclear option and they just want to destroy the other person beyond all recognition that's a good thing to have because it protects you why does it protect you because the other person agreed with within the limits you can do x y and z i had no idea something like that existed i've heard of a prenup a prenuptial i never heard of a marriage agreement marriage settlement you called it yeah it's a marital marital settlement sometimes they call it prenuptial agreement oh okay but they call it can call it marital settlement because you can do it while you're married oh say hey this is what we're going to do about this i'm buying a beach house and when if if the big if if our marriage dissolves then i get this beach house because i bought this with an inheritance from my mother or you know some money i had before we even married so you you don't have to wear or you don't want the beach house so that's my property and that's my problem you can always do that that's why i love talking i love talking to attorneys because they just they make everything make sense in a weird way and open your eyes to oh yeah that is a that is a thing, huh?
And I just, I dig that. So I like talking to attorneys. We do have some uses. I know. I know. Everybody hates us. They love doctors, but everybody hates us.
Well, and that client you had was lucky because they stumbled upon a kink-aware attorney to them out if god forbid something happens to a couple having a i imagine having an attorney who's at least aware of the lifestyle would help in some regard or or understand the that there are rules to this and it's not just a free-for-all yes and there are there are cake aware professionals there's a listing um that you can find you can google on the internet um particularly in mental health fields uh medical fields all fields there's there are some and that doesn't necessarily mean they're they're part of that particular lifestyle that just means they have some knowledge and some understanding of the dynamics because that's very important i mean if you're a family law attorney you That just means they have some knowledge and some understanding of the dynamics because that's very important.
I mean, if you're a family law attorney and you're dealing with people that are in a throuple, that, you know, all three partners live together and they may have children together. How do you deal with that, the separation of that, that family? So one partner decides that they're no longer happy and they want to move away but there's a child involved that can be very important yeah in terms of custody having an attorney who's aware of the nuances of all everything under ethical non-monogamy versus an attorney who doesn't know that and who may approach this as a more traditional case i.
And there's nothing traditional about what we do, which speaking of traditional, see, I'm getting better with my segues here. So we were talking the other day about the language of the lifestyle. And I know for attorneys, words are super fucking important. Definitions of words are super important.
So some of us say lifestyle say lifestyle some of us say swinging but you have a great idea for something new a new idea a new term there's that deal really dig i'll give you a little preempt yeah the reason i kind of got i won't say obsessed but it became important to me is just because i'm late to the gate. I came in at an older age. I started looking at it from the outside. I didn't even know this community existed. I had no idea that this was a thing that you could actually do and live to tell about it. Why?
Because of that you see all the time who are we swingers what do swingers do oh you guys that have those key parties right you throw your keys in the bowl and whichever one you get that's the person that i've never heard i can find no reports anywhere of that ever happening i'm sure somebody's tried it i did a whole episode on it i have dug through the internet i cannot find a specific reference from anybody anybody we talk to because i know a bunch of people who have been in this for decades no one no one can tell me a key party ever happened and the other stereotype is the couple who's like sitting at the bar they're sending drinks to some cute girl and they're like hey you want to come back to our hot tub i fucking hate these stereotypes they're so off but that's the perception the vanilla world has exactly and so i think what we need is a rebranding one is the like the first one is Swinger.
did that come from i cannot find that anywhere it's there's no and it doesn't even make sense who's what's a swing where where are you doing all this swing the swing dancing but what is a swinger so So what I would like to like to suggest as an alternative and when it fits with the other taxonomy the other names that are used in the other communities that are related is poly social many friends because what are we doing what what is it that we're looking for ideally most of us that there's there's a lot of variation people like different stuff but most of us want to have basically a friends with benefits relationship with with another person or another couple we want to know them socially but we don't want to necessarily you know meet their kids and their parents and and you know come to thanksgiving as who we actually are in relation to these other as friends sure but we don't want necessarily want to establish a long-term relationship here that's polyamory that's a little bit different same thing only different so polysocial.
And then instead of the lifestyle, we can talk about the community, the polysocial community. I think with a rebranding like that, now we can start to be more accepted. Believe me, when I was a kid, there was no such thing as polyamory. This dude's living with two women, or this woman's living with a couple of guys. There was that show Three's Company from the 70s, that sitcom. Okay. You don't remember the sitcom? I remember it, but I don't think it was very representative. It may have been doing something when the cameras were off. Yeah. But no, you're right.
And I always say polyamory has a better marketing department because for the past 10 years, polyamory has been on TV. People seem to understand that one a lot better because they get the relationship aspect of it. The idea of just having sex with people for fun. A lot of married couples don't even have sex for fun.
So us doing it as a group activity is even more alien and different i i think i had trouble hearing what you said because everybody was saying amen oh but no it's seriously look look at the progress of the gay community they went from being the f word bags or you know that that type of stuff to being queer to gay lesbian and now lgbtq plus it's they they how did they do it partially through rebranding i mean activism of course but demanding a place in society we have a right to be in society have, we're not doing anything that interferes with the rights of others or the liberties of us.
We're just doing our own thing. We're not bothering anybody that doesn't want to be involved. That's, that's the, that's the whole thing. We, that's what ethical non-monogamy and consensual non-monogamy mean. Ethical meaning there are rules out there. This is a community and it has rules and we follow those rules. What are those rules? Well, broadly, it's be honest about what you're doing. Everybody's on board. You get that consent. You get consent from your partner, your significant other, and you get consent from the partner whom you're going to have sex with. Thank you.
consent you can get consent from your partner the one your significant other and you get consent from the partner whom you're going to have sex with it's basic bottom line basic and a failure to do that will get you ostracized from the community yeah it will the other cardinal sin of the community is violating the rules of consent in in a willful manner that will get you blacklisted along with cheating so that's the two cardinal sins of the lifestyle cheating and violating consent yeah and and believe me that there of course there are criminal penalties for some of the behavior but the community uh outrage uh of of hearing about a violation like that will have you ostracized.
You've got to be moving to another state because the word goes for. I always tell people your local, your local lifestyle community is a lot smaller than you think it is. Everybody knows everybody. Yes, sir. And you know, there's, there's, have I ever seen any violation? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Somebody taking pictures. Why? Because they didn't have consent. You want to take pictures, you go someplace private, take your pictures.
Everybody's on board, but you go in a club and you, you know, sneak out your cell phone because you want to have a memento big violation that that gets you 86 from every place you'll have to be moving on you know being being what you may consider enthusiastic when the other person is saying no that's a violation of consent big problem for you that can end up in places you don't want to be in the court legally and or civilly you don't want that so the what do we do we ask we get the consent and if the consent is withdrawn or you think it may be because you check in with your partner.
You check with other people you ask questions be curious find out because i say enthusiastic consent i want to make sure that when you say yes that means yes and you were on board there's no hesitation if there's a hint of hesitation it's not worth it even though they say yes but you kind of you know you're kind of wondering it ain't worth it it's not worth it to try to change someone's mind and no means no and we shut it down yeah it's it's just like the rules for guerrilla war he who fight and run away live to fight another day so if you're involved in in some activity and the other go, uh, that's uncomfortable.
I think we better stop. That means the referee just threw the red flag. That's it. You're done. Done. No, you know, can, can you get consent later if things change? Sure. Absolutely.
But like you said, enthusiastic consent, no taking it for the team that's that's another ethical constraint then we don't believe in taking it for the team just going along to get along no enthusiastic you either on board or you off the bus so you mentioned lgbtq uh apologize i'm not saying all the whole acronym lgbtq As far as the lifestyle goes, and this is a two-pronged question, LGBTQ, it could be argued one way or another, however you feel about it. It's an expression, it's an identity, it's something you're born as.
For people in the lifestyle, do you see what we do falling under that umbrella? i think we're out in the plus because i don't believe that this is a lifestyle it's just a choice something new to do today because think about what's actually going on here you're a married couple and you're gonna have sex with another married couple you you're gonna be there what i'm just talking as a man now Thank you. you're a married couple and you're going to have sex with another married couple. You, you're going to be there.
What I'm just talking as a man now, because those are the only emotions I really understand. You're watching another man penetrating your wife repeatedly and she's enjoying it, hopefully. So if you enjoy that, you're not the average guy walking down the street. In fact, that was one of the biggest awakenings and changes and understandings that I got. I said, you know, I used to be a very jealous person.
I was very insecure about stuff like that and caused much misery in my life but once once i actually got there to you know this is cool this is great this is what i want and i'm sure people that didn't know they didn't really understand that they were gay probably had exactly the same experience it was anathema at one point but once you understood that this was a desire you had We'll be right back. probably had exactly the same experience.
It was a nightmare at one point, but once you understood that this was a desire you had and that you could express it in an environment where there wasn't a great penalty for the expression of your desire and everybody was on board, it was good. It was great. Matter of fact, it changed my life. It's definitely an epiphany moment. Definitely an epiphany moment. Like, all right, I'm, I'm digging this suddenly, a lot of things suddenly make a lot more sense. Exactly. And it's, it's the same thing on, you know, on, on the BDSM side, some people are into humiliation.
Myself, I can't, I can't really get into that that but i can understand how somebody that's in control all the time wants to let go yeah you're selling a sailboat and the wind's really strong you're fighting the sails you're fighting the balance of the boat sometimes you just want to let go and drift or let somebody else be in charge i can i can understand that feeling sure so yeah people are different i think this is a sexual orientation i'm not a medic medical doctor i don't have any particular background in psychology but i really believe it's just as much of a sexual orientation as anything else, because it's what we desire, sexually desire, and we go and seek it out.
I would say, I would use the word valid. There's validity to it as a sexual orientation. It's something we, it's just, and I can't say if it's something you're born being not monogamous maybe maybe, or maybe the world forces us to be monogamous or I couldn't really, I haven't died, you know, I haven't given it that much thought yet. Yeah, that's not my lane, but you know, if prove me wrong, please go ahead, prove me wrong.
Show me the way it's not going to change my behavior, you know, as long as my behavior is legal, maybe if it's not an show me where i'm wrong you know some of you big brain medical people or psychiatry people come come on board let's let's get into it that's another problem in in this area and in sex in general hit me and there's there's very little research actually being done. Yeah. Yeah. About ethical non-monogamy, participation, activity, the way we do it. You're right.
Because I've tried to find them and there's very little real legitimate studies outside of like an internet survey, which ain't the best thing out there.
So, I mean, even in the literature, if you look, all the work is in ethical non-monogamy or consensual non-monogamy is polyamory people that have established different hierarchical relationships we're not here we know that's a good way to put it too i like that now you're just giving me all these things i'm going to borrow for future episodes we are non-hierarchy hierarchical I can't say the word right yeah yeah but we don't we don't have okay this is this is my wife and this is my girlfriend oh they have the polyamorous got words at a more this yeah they got all this stuff you know it's like okay yeah you do you but you know it's like okay we're kind of like that some people have open relationships where they have a a girlfriend or they date other people and they they have their own you know their their soul relationship at home or you know whatever any way you go that's fine you're still under the flag of consensual non-monogamy.
You, if you want to establish a relationship with a couple or a person or a bunch of people, that's your business. Go ahead, man. You know, get down. We're a little different than that. And we should be valid as well. We need to, we need to be able to come out of the closet when it's appropriate and say, you know, this is, this is what we do. We don't have to tell everybody. Just like if you're in a BDSM, let's say you're a leather guy, you know, or a person who likes to wear the vinyls, the rubber suits, the vinyl suits. Cool, man. You don't have to tell me about it.
That's not my interest, not my business not my business i'm not gonna chase you down and make you confess but you know it's it's like you should be able to you know express yourself and do your own thing you don't have to tell everybody in the world but there shouldn't be a whole bunch of shame attached to the way you are that's the problem this is what what we call and this this is where it gets down to issues of discrimination why why is it wrong to discriminate against people that like same sex that are homosexual like the same well i was going to ask about because you mentioned lgbtq plus and there's protections against discrimination for people in that area i don't know how to call it there's people who fall under that banner there's protections for them from discrimination as far as the lifestyle yeah that we get discriminated against but why did they they have special and that's with big air quotes because they're not special they're given the same human rights as every other human being right why should they because it's an immutable unchangeable we've heard about these reform camps or programs or whatever trying to un-gayay people, spray the gay away or whatever.
But that's, that's not, that's not a real thing. Being home, being gay is an immutable characteristic. Just like I'm six foot three. That makes me tall. If I weigh 290 pounds, that makes me heavy. Pick me up, check it out.
I'm heavy compared to somebody that weighs 185 pounds i'm heavy compared to somebody that's five five i'm tall you can't change it even if you cut my legs off i'm just a six foot three person without legs that didn't make me shorter that just makes me not have legs but the rest of me is still taller than the other person when they sit down it's immutable it's not going to change my my sexual orientation the desires are not going to change i'm sure because somebody's judging you or telling you that it's not right right yeah if you try something once and decide ah that's not for me yeah that's not your orientation that's not how you're wired there's lots of people that have experimented in different things even in terms of you know homosexual relations but you know when i was when i was a a psychiatric technician in the army one of the things we had to one of the things that they look for and this is way back in the 80s was is a person a homosexual well that was considered if you have more than one actual homosexual event then you might be considered homosexual so they gave them an automatic once to try it yeah you.
You get a mulligan. You can try it. Just don't like it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You decide, I tried it. It ain't for me. You hear all these stories about, you know, women particularly, because guys won't say anything because too chicken shit.
Women say, oh yeah, I tried it once in college with my roommate or whatever, you know, and I'm sure there are guys that, you know, they probably gave their roommate a head job or something that doesn't make you gay coming coming to a coming to a club and checking it out doesn't put you in our community it's when you actually participate in some way and that that doesn't mean you even have to have you know an exchange with another couple some people come to clubs just because they like they're exhibitionists they like to be seen they're voyeurs they like to watch or they just like to have sex in a really wild atmosphere and they you know they but their particular paradigm doesn't allow you, doesn't desire sex with other couples or sex with other people.
That's cool. That's why we're considered an inclusive community. Most people can find a place here. I can, whether you're no swap, parallel play, whatever you dig, you're welcome. And that's another reason I really liked the lifestyle. There's no set definition for it, which I think that might be one of the issues. We don't have a set definition. Going back to like, if two men have sex, that could be considered a homosexual activity. They're gay, according to the society standard definition. With a lifestyle, we don't have a set definition.
It's more of just you're choosing to our lifestyle, therefore you're choosing, therefore you are. You just don't have a good definition of what it means to be in this, I feel. Exactly.
And let me just talk to another area, which is there are some prejudices within the broader community i have i have noticed prejudice against us the polysocial community from the polyamory community which sounds weird but you know it's like people all people like to judge the other you know and it depends on what that judgment is so you're essentially doing the same thing except i guess harder because you have relationships with these people that are longer term you know somehow we're we're just we're you know it's like a woman that that enjoys a lot of sex with her partner and looks at another woman that has sex with multiple guys and says, oh, she's a whore.
She's a slut. Wait a minute. Why? Because she has multiple partners and you have one, but you both enjoy it. Why are we name calling here? Why can't it just be you enjoy sex and it's not my business? People are always looking to try to define the other, figure out, you know, this is my tribe versus that tribe. And this is why the other tribe is different from my tribe. And we're better because I'm a part of it. I'm going to create all these different reasons for why my tribe is better than that tribe. And really, we're all the same tribe. We're all just humans.
And we all have our own dignity and our own souls.
And people too goddamn much that's my take yeah and even in our community there's a discriminant discrimination against lbt lesbians and gays and by particularly by men what is that about well that's basically the insecurity of of cis men feel uncomfortable around by men it's like why when you're in a when you're in a public restroom are you feeling uncomfortable how do i know what that person's sexual orientation is that's not a place for me to find out anything except where the urinal is i don't i don't need to know i don't want to know i don't want to know what this guy is doing i'm not interested that's not my thing if you're interested then maybe there's some exploration you need to do about your own sexuality because you have all these questions go check that out you know in our clubs where you know there's there's no women women on women is fine but men having any kind of sexual contact with other men would be frowned upon greatly We'll see you next time.
There's no women, women on women is fine, but men having any kind of sexual contact with other men would be frowned upon greatly, may even get you barred, which I think is problematic. I mean, yes, of course, there, you know, there's a gay community. They do their thing. They have their own language, their own ways of speaking, their own more. And their own culture. Exactly. There's a gay culture. And we have a culture. Okay. But we don't have to hate on anybody else. You know, yeah, maybe we don't want to see that activity. You know, where's the real problem? Is the problem with them?
Or is the problem with you? Because your discomfort has to relate to something inside you. They're not bothering you. Thank you. They're not bothering you. Nobody's coming up and, you know, trying to grapple you. So why are you so concerned? Questions. Questions. Well, you have given us a lot of good questions to think about today. And I do appreciate you hanging out with us. I would definitely have you back on because we have so much more to talk about. Oh my God. And I know we're going to get questions and so much more. I need to talk to you about, but thank you so much.
Is there anything else you want to share with the audience before we cut out today? No, just stay alert, stay aware and you know, behave yourself. It's going to be all right. Just behave yourself. Behave yourself. be all right. Just behave yourself. Behave yourself. I like that. Well, thank you, Ziggy, for hanging out with us. Y'all have a wonderful day, wonderful night, and tune in for the next episode. This has been That Other Lifestyle with me, Jason. Y'all have a great night. Bye. Thank you so much for watching.
