Send us Fan MailLifestyle Interview | Uncovering Lifestyle History: A Behind-the-Scenes Look with Paul Ditty of The Silver Chain | Episode 135Join hosts Dan and Lacy of The Swing Nation Podcast as they sit down with podcast producer Paul Ditty, creator of the captivating new series, The Silver Chain. In this illuminating interview, Paul offers listeners a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the making of his groundbreaking podcast, which explores the hidden history of a secretive swingers society from the 1970s.As Paul shares the story behind The Silver Chain, listeners are transported back in time to the early 1990s, when a cache of abandoned newsletters surfaced in Minneapolis, Minnesota. These newsletters, detailing the inner workings of The Silver Chain Social Club, remained untouched for decades until Paul s curiosity led him on a quest to uncover their secrets.Tune in as Dan, Lacy, and Paul discuss the challenges and triumphs of tracking down the club s surviving members, unraveling the mysteries of their clandestine gatherings. From dusty archives to intimate interviews, The Silver Chain offers a riveting journey into the heart of a forgotten era.The Silver Chain Website- The Swing Nation - Main Website Quick Navigation Website: -- (Find all our social media links more!) Follow us on Facebook! The Podcast Website- Swinger Society - Our Website to meet, connect events Swinger Society Discord Our Facebook Group- Swinger Websites -Kasadie 90 day free trialUsername: TheSwingNation SDC 14 day free trial Username: TheSwingNation** Use code 36313 for 14 days free! ** SLSUsername: NorthernGuynSouthernGirl- Merch More -Order Your Merch Here!- Lacy’s Fun Links - VIP OnlyFans PREMIUM OnlyFans-- THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS --Wisp : Making sexual healthcare inclusive, cost-effective, and accessible—for everyoneUse Code SWING at checkout for 15% off your oder! Shameless Care: ED Medication and at home STD testingUse Code TSN at checkout for $30 off your order!Promescent® Make Love Longer, It’s Time for Great SexUse Code SwingNation for 5% off!Pinaq Liqueur; The Official Drink of The Swing NationUse Code TSN at checkout for 15% off!- Thank you for the support! -
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Welcome to the Swing Nation podcast, a podcast by swingers for swingers, where we look to educate others and push back on the negative stigmas and misconceptions associated with our lifestyle.
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Hey there, pineapple people, and welcome to the Swing Nation podcast. We we are your hosts northern guy and southern girl today we have a special episode for you we got paul diddy sitting down with us and he's a tv writer and podcast host and he has a podcast which was i guess just released recently called time capsule the silver, The Silver Chain. Is that right, Paul? That is right. Yeah, we started, we released the first two episodes on Leap Day, February 29th. Awesome.
And do you want to give us a little summary of what your podcast is about for our listeners? Yes, absolutely. So my podcast is about an art. It really all started from an article that was in GQ. And it was an article about a secret swinging group in the 1970s from suburban Minnesota and this archive that they left behind. And the journalist who wrote it is a man named Jack Elhye. He's typically a historical writer. And it was about these newsletters that were left behind in a safe deposit box.
And they were for a club called the Silver Chain Social Club. And so I was initially selected to work on a pitch with a friend of mine who's a producer and another producer named Jack Houston, who's also an actor. And I was elated because it was a very fascinating subject for me that I didn't know very much about. I love the 70s and I'm from Minnesota. So I just was like enjoying every minute.
But the further we got into it, the less I knew what to do because I'm not a swinger and I realized I just have preconceived notions of it. So I began a search to try to find the people that belong to the club. And that's how it all started. Okay.
So, so you, you read this magazine or, or just the idea of the pitch was brought to you and say, and they said, Hey, we got this, we're thinking about pitching this podcast and this is what it's roughly about like did you see the article or no not initially my friend april just sent me a text message and she said have you ever heard of the silver chain social club and i'm like no i'm what did she just assume because you were from the area you'd right no i'm from minnesota and i was alive at alive at some point in the 1970s.
She just kind of assumes people in Minnesota all know each other. Gotcha. So when I said no, she immediately sent me the link to the article. And then I just became really very single-minded about trying to learn as much as I could about the club as possible. Okay. So then you pitch this and they're like, yeah, we love this idea. Well, let's do it. Yeah, we were pitching it and they love the idea.
But while I was working on the pitch and the pitching process, getting ready to pitch something, there's a lot of changes lot of collaboration a lot of revising and as I was doing that I kept trying to learn more about the club because I thought wow if I could talk to someone about the club I would have a better perspective of the story and the author of the article actually had copies of all the newsletters. So that's where my search began.
I started looking at all of the names and to protect the identities of the people in the club, they're identified by first name and first initial of last name only. So this was all going on while I was working on the pitch and my friend April said, this should be a podcast because I always said I wanted to do a podcast in the past and I thought, okay, it goes, you're the podcast is about you trying to find these people.
And I, in the back of my mind, I'm like, but what if I don't, you know, like then it's not a podcast. So, um, so yeah. And then the further I got into it, the more, um, time consuming the process became. So ultimately we decided let's just work on the podcast. Let's just, you know, find out as much as we can about this club and its members and the lifestyle at the time.
Um, and then revisit possibly doing a TV series because i realized there was so much to learn so the initial pitch was for a tv show or series on this and yeah so okay then you you kind of pivoted from that to let's do a podcast about this yes and i just started recording i just started recording everything i mean people tell you when you're doing a a podcast to record everything, they really mean everything. And I recorded probably about 20% of what I should have.
You know, someone said, record how you're feeling. And I'm like, why?
But then you realize it's really important to have all of that on record when you're trying to piece together, you know, two years really of interviews and and work on it okay so i assume you got the letters then from the gq magazine writer you got copies somehow i did i i got i he sent me pdfs and then i eventually went to the historical society uh to read the newsletters uh there because they're available to anyone um who's a member of the library uh so can you explain to us a little bit like what are these letters entail like what what's the gist of kind of what these people were were talking about about this swinging social club in the 70s well you know that the newsletter looks like a church newsletter from the outside it really does i mean it has it was made on a mimeograph so it's all very much like a similar font for their headlines they have different fonts but otherwise it's kind of like a courier style font and um each one is six pages and it's stapled together along the spine with like one single staple so it looks and everyone looks very wholesome i mean they look like people that you're gonna that you're gonna see at church so um so these are there's photos and stuff in the in these newsletters yeah they there's photos of and then the text is like typed so it's almost like is it like a newspaper looking yeah it looks yeah it looks like um it looks yeah it looks similar to i would say similar to a newspaper but the but the paper itself is more uh a little bit of a thicker sock kind of kind of i mean really like a like a small organization newsletter um and the contents are pretty broad um there's obviously a calendar for all of the events that the group is doing they have uh they held a monthly dance uh typically at this hotel called the Thunderbird Motel.
Sounds like a swinger. Oh, yeah. It was like a faux Native American themed place that was known for their strong drinks. I mean, really well known for their strong drinks. So they held a monthly dance. They had a discussion group.
So this one woman who is named Carol, who we follow for most of the series uh she organized a bi-weekly group called new horizons and it was it was typically talking about the swinging lifestyle but it was also talking about other changes within sexuality and society at the time okay and they also had their own sports team they had a kitten ball team or soft it's like softball but it's called kitten ball um called the swingers and uh they had their own bowling team i mean they were really a tight-knit community um the club also had a personality of the month so the the personality of the month was always featured in the newsletter and that was always a woman um and it was typically someone who didn't miss the dances so it was someone that was very participatory in the group uh and they were always featured and there was like a little bio about them and And then that made them a candidate for personality of the year, which was always awarded in January.
So, yeah, so there was just a lot of fun stuff that I was just instantly drawn to. And and of course, there's advice to there's there's couples that do articles that talk about how they got into swinging and how they navigated it with their relationship, how they feel about being in the group. Just a lot of a lot of very positive community or community oriented content. Yeah.
And how many do you know roughly how many people were in participated in the group um typically at the dances about 100 couples would show up uh when i spoke with one of the organizers they said at one point it was about 200 couples so pretty good sized for the suburbs of minneapolis so yeah it's it's so it's so fun you know because we do this now when we we host events and throw parties and stuff so just some of the things you're talking about is very similar very relatable i think yes to us but on a different different level yeah i think so i don't know if we talked about this so how did these letters come to light i don't think we really touched on that yet so the newsletters um were saved by someone and uh they were stored in the safe deposit box at first bloomington lake national bank which was a first bank in minneapolis and for whatever reason the person who had the safe deposit box quit paying for the safe deposit box and basically abandoned the contents.
And the bank, I learned, is required. Anything that they have in the bank that's left behind has to be, in Minnesota, turned into the Minnesota Department of Commerce. Obviously, in most cases, there are jewels, cash, a lot of valuables. So they're required to turn everything over. So the Minnesota Department of Commerce, of course, takes everything of value. They try to reach out to people to possibly give them back their belongings.
And then if there's anything that they have no use for, they put together a catalog for the historical society of additional artifacts that they have. And so within their catalog, these newsletters were, were listed. And for whatever reason, I'm not sure who decided that these newsletters were of historic value. I'm thrilled that they decided that, but I think a lot of people are surprised, right? Yeah. And they just thought, well, this is a social club in the 1970s.
This is a newsletter that they formed. This is something that's really interesting. And with it also were four pages of bylaws that all of the members of the club had to follow. Very strict bylaws. So they ended up in the safe deposit box. And so in the early 90s, this writer that I was telling you about, Jack, he was writing another book called Minnesota Collects. And it was about the all of the things available in in this library.
And he asked one of the curators, is there anything here that people don't know about that you think is is really interesting and the curator said yes and gave him the newsletters and this is probably in i mean i would say like 92 or 93 maybe yeah and he had the newsletters and he just didn't know what to do with them so the article wasn't even written until 2017 25 years after he got these newsletters. And I would suspect they probably just sat there until he wrote the article.
And then there was a little bit of press when his article first came out locally in Minnesota. And then really nothing happened. And he hadn't had any luck in reaching out or contacting people. And I just was fascinated. I was like, this is, this is what fascinated me about it was that I thought it was a very progressive group considering the time and the environment.
and just drew a parallel to so many things that are happening in society and culture today in regards to you know ethical non-monogamy um being in being in a triad i mean there are all of the things that are beyond just swinging right and so i really started to look at in terms of like well what what did these people do and how did they make it work or not make it work and so that and then of course the question of like who left these behind was something i had to know i'm like if this was like there's even like a an article that says don't forget to destroy your newsletter after you've read it basically and i'm like this person did not destroy their newsletters so So what is going on?
Um, and so I just, you know, became really interested in finding out who the people were that sort of like made this choice and, and also put all of this effort.
I mean, I talked with both of you about the effort and the work it takes to organize, um, what you guys organize with events and events and and doing a weekly podcast they're doing all of these events and they're also you know putting out a newsletter so they're they're kind of you know they're they're all in this is this is their their life you know to me at least from an outsider yeah so a couple questions how did they distribute was did they distribute?
Was this, they, they mailed it to people. They mailed them. Yeah. And so I would bet some of them probably had peel boxes or something. They probably didn't have it mailed to their house, especially it comes to mind. Like if this person was keeping it in the safety deposit box is probably because they didn't even want it in their house, but it is funny that they would save them all up like that. And then just forget about that. I know.
And it's weird too, because I weird too because i mean p.o boxes i think were like really a big thing at the time um the silver chains address is a p.o box um i i would suspect that a lot of the members had the newsletters come to a p.o box um but yeah they were they were mailed out each month that the way that the newsletter is shaped if you fold it in half it fits perfectly into a business size envelope perfect okay and then another question i have is what what are the demographics of this this group is this you said it's suburbia so it's it's middle class white people mostly or is it okay and you even said you're surprised a little bit by some of the politics of it so and i always find this interesting with swingers too because i i think it's similar so i'm curious what this group what you think Thank you.
or is it okay and you even said you're surprised a little bit by some of the politics of it so and i always find this interesting with swingers too because i i think it's similar so i'm curious what this group what you think yeah i i have well i have some survey numbers that i could actually share with you i'd have to bring them up but the majority of the people that were in the club were in their late 30s to late 50s there were younger people in their 20s and 30s but most of the members um that are getting recognition within the newsletters and that i was able to locate were people that either had were either recent empty nesters or had kids that were in their teens uh by the by the time that they decided to um part of the club.
It's so crazy how similar that is to even now. The only really big difference between this and now is everything is digital now. Yeah, awesome. But everything else is pretty much the same. Even the things that he described in the newsletter, it's very similar. Really? Yeah.
Most swingers are that age yeah yeah 100 yeah and so are they predominantly white middle class people i think the majority if not all almost all of the members in this club were white and i would attribute it to being in the suburbs in the 70s right um i did see uh one woman who was featured that was a pacific islander um but that was really it yeah and i asked a few of the members if there were any people of color in the club and the, the answer I received was no.
Um, so I can't be 100% certain, but definitely that seemed to be the case. Okay. And then what about, I'm curious about sexuality. So I know like in, in swingers clubs today, it's pretty common for most females to be at least openly bisexual. And then I think the male bisexuality is becoming more acceptable nowadays. Did you get a sense of people's sexuality in the group? I think it's very much similar. Again, which is so wild. Yeah, it's very wild.
It definitely was accepted at that time for the wives to be bisexual um that was something that was which is pretty progressive for the 70s i would assume yeah accepted and maybe encouraged on occasion um right but same even now i mean you know i mean things it's so wild how so many things stay the same. It's like 50 years later. And then I don't think that like men being bisexual was something that was was accepted from from what I can understand.
I did read one article in the newsletter that refers to one of the couples in the group being friends with a man that was bisexual. Um, there is, there are a few references to a few of the men having sex with other men, but it's not something that is, um, necessarily promoted or, or heavily discussed. Right.
But is it, you said there's a few references in those references are did they seem accepting of that or is it is it frowned upon in those references I would say it in general from the club it it wasn't something that they were open to okay um there were people I interviewed that said that they had engaged like men, like one guy who said he engaged in sex with other guys.
And then there was another person who in an interview acknowledged that they had but said it wasn't it wasn't necessarily something that they were that interested in. They just, you know, did it to try it. Yeah.
So it didn't seem like it didn't seem at least you know from what i could find in newsletters something that was really uh promoted yeah and you know you reference this is a is a secret society was there any you know why were they so secretive is there any indication of you know i assuming these people had prominent, maybe some of them had prominent jobs and they were worried about repercussions. Is, is that kind of the gist of what?
Yeah, I, there, you and I, um, had talked about the stigma around swinging even to this day. And definitely at that time, uh, there stigma. There was a fear of being exposed in your community or at your job. I mean, some of these people were judges, dentists, doctors, successful business people that were pretty well known in the community.
So there was definitely a fear of that um I think that's why they used you know first names only is because they wanted to make sure that they were protected again still the same now I mean you have very few swingers now that are open I would say the bulk of swingers even today are still very underground and you don't you you don't tell anybody that you that this is what you were taking in do you think if someone says they're in an open marriage or if they're polyamorous or they're ethically non-monogamous versus saying they're a swinger.
Do you think there's a different perception? I do, but I still feel like being in an open marriage, especially that people are still going to be judgmental.
Yeah, that's an interesting question because I do feel like, you know, polyamory specifically, it seems to be something that seems like it's coming more to the forefront and people are more you know talking about um and there there does seem to be i think it's still stigmatized and still but uh there seems to be a little more understanding about about that or support of that it sounds better but it's essentially the same thing i mean outside of polyamory but open marriage ethical nominal it's the same thing as swinging i think what gets swinging is we we're smeared with this it's just for sex um brush right that's what most people when they think of swingers they're thinking oh you people just want to fuck other people that's that's why you're in this community uh which you know i would almost point back to what you know you have all these letters and newsletters and is that was that group all about sex like was that that seemed to be the major um you know crux of that that organization Thank you.
You know, you have all these letters and newsletters and is that was that group all about sex? Like was that that seemed to be the major, you know, crux of that that organization? Not at all. I mean, definitely sex played a role in it. But these are people that some of them have had lifelong friendships that have stemmed from being in this club.
And people get older and whatever reason sex becomes less of a priority so these people are still meeting to play bridge they're still friends on facebook you know there's there's quite a bit that is created in the relationships of the people in this club that that goes beyond sex yes and and I think also like when you are, you know, having sex with multiple partners, you want to feel safe. You want to feel like you're part of an environment where people have the same or similar values to you.
And this definitely, I think, cultivated that, uh, I, I do reach a point in the second episode where I start to question the validity of the newsletters, in part because of some of the responses I received from past members.
And I walked away with it being discouraged because I started to worry that the newsletters weren't real and that this was something that was made up and maybe this really was just about sex but then i once i went through that and kind of like worked through that and having conversations with people i realized it's both like nothing is that simple right it's like you can't say oh this is just about sex or oh we're it i mean that's a commonality in the group like that is one of the reasons why everyone is a member in that group so there's going to be that baseline expectation that there's going to be sex you know and if you don't swing in the silver chain you're not invited back you have to be a swinger yeah oh really so if you when you say you don't swing so if you weren't actively couple swapping you would not be invited to a future event that is interesting so they they would only um add people to their membership if they were referred by other members and there's an article in the newsletter basically saying after they had a new members dance and after that dance they wrote an article saying you know please make sure that the people that you're I'll see you next time.
basically saying after they had a new members dance and after that dance they wrote an article saying you know please make sure that the people that you're bringing understand that it is required to be a swinger if you're going to be part of this group because i think some people joined because they were lonely and they wanted to go to the dances and they wanted to have fun they want to be in you know the bridge club or whatever um but you know it is a swinging group it's that is that is an expectation that's interesting you know it's because it's we get asked that question all the time like do you have to be a swinger to attend a swingers club and maybe that's one place where we've changed because nowadays it's like no if you if you just come out and have a party and hang out and have a good time like you're more than welcome as long as you're not interfering right yeah if you're not being rude you know like i don't think swingers clubs want to be a spectacle right they don't want just a bunch of tourists coming through and being just to see what's going where are all these crazy people doing they don't want that but there's actually not oh if you walk through these doors you have to fuck somebody that's not part of it either so i think there is a fine line in there somewhere between like hey if you don't know what you're into or if you're just curious come on out but I definitely do think if you just came under the guise of I just want to see what all these people are doing and I'm not but I'm not part of I don't want to be part of this community I think you would then you know people would have this issue with that but for the most part I everybody's welcome to, at least at the events that we throw and most of the events that we've been to nowadays.
Yeah, I wondered about that. Everyone's like, Paul, you should go to a swinger party. And I'm like, well, first of all, I'm gay. I don't know if I told you guys. Secondly, I don't know if you noticed. I don't know if I threw any clues. But also I'm not, I'm not a swinger. Um, so I, I was like, I just want to go have fun. I just wanted to go have a party. Oh, there's so much fun. Right? And so, Paul, you let us know when you want to come to a party. I will. I'm going to be there. Yes. Okay.
I'm ready to party. Yes. Um, I wish the Thunderbird was still there. I would organize my own party. Yes. Yeah.
But, um, but what i will say is that i think part of it was that if everyone was doing it then they're all vulnerable to being exposed and so i think that may have been part of it as well right so the sense of like you gotta gotta kind of like a mobster you gotta you know you gotta kill somebody to be part of the group like if you're not fucking you're not fucking other people you might be just here to be a rat you might be a spy right you know and we we can't have that we need we need you to have skin in the game so to speak but like conversely what i do want to share with you is that uh when the silver chain organized these dances as although they required everyone to be a swinger no one was allowed to swing at the dances oh so they just had to leave there was no on-premise sex exactly so they so it was on the members to organize parties um since it was at the thunderbird they they would get this hotel room that had a pool in it like an eight-person pool it sounds like a hot tub but they call it a pool and they call it their hospitality suite and they would have a party there before and after so I'm sure that there were some things happening you know in the adjoining hotels but primarily people were hosting events at their own homes in their you know midwestern basement or in some cases in the whole house just depending on depending on you know where where they held their parties i don't know if you know but um every minneapolis home that was built you know prior to 1980 has a basement with a bar in it i mean and and a lot of them had hot tubs back then yeah as well i didn't know uh minneapolis was such a hot spot for for swingers i didn't know that was a the hub but you're saying if they all had bars and hot tubs i mean that sounds like a swinging mecca right there yeah it does yeah yeah i i well there were multiple swing clubs at the time as well that I that I found out about through just my research.
There were there were other competing swing clubs and and two of the two of the founders of the silver chain even tried to start a swing club for singles at one point as well. Oh, wow. That's awesome. All right.
Well, I think now is a perfect time to take a little break and hear from the partners and sponsors of the swing nation podcast and then when we get back paul i want to i want to get into the you tried to track some of these people down right you tried to have conversations with actual members of this group so when we get back from break i want to see one how you did that and then two how how it was received and then i'm going to tell everyone how i tracked you two down okay okay we'll support all that all right we'll do all that on the back side of the break we'll be right back guys are you ready to spice up your social life introducing three fun the dating app for open-minded individuals fun and excitement.
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So as I was listening to your trailer and I heard a few clips of you actually talking to people that i assume were in in this social club yeah one lady said she didn't want to talk to you don't call her back i heard that hung up on you in the trailer um so how you know you have these names first name and last initial i assume you have a few photos of people but but how, how do you go about finding them? Like, how does that even work?
It was so delicate to approach people because the members at their youngest are in their seventies and the majority of them were either in their eighties or nineties or no longer living. So the process of finding these people was something that at times I had to not overthink it and just go into it. So my first source was I found the name of the treasurer.
The treasurer of the club is the only person in the newsletter whose full name is listed because all checks were written out to her and she was the one that gave out the membership cards and so i found her and she was unfortunately no longer alive but i went to her facebook and i started to see if she had any friends that matched the names of the people on the newsletter. Facebook will get you. Listen, these people were swinging in the 70s. And here we are 50 years later.
And their Facebook is how Paul is tracking people now. You just freaked out all of our people that are swingers. They're like, holy crabs. Somebody's going to find me. I found you guys on Facebook. Did you?
Which which is crazy there was there was someone that organized uh like hotel takeover swinging events in minneapolis and i wanted to interview him and i wanted to see if he would invite me to the social aspects of this event and he was pretty elusive he said he was very busy but then I, I saw you as his friends and I was like, who are these two? And then I think I saw that you had a podcast and then I listened to the podcast. So I love it. Yeah. So in this case, I, I, I looked at her friends.
I made a list of all of the couples that were in the newsletters. And if I could, I would write out any details in the newsletters that could perhaps help me understand what the relationship with the organization was. And then I started to call people. I found a few names that as I was looking for people, I would see some of the same friends showing up in people's friend list. Just make your friend list unavailable. Oh, we've already done that. Yeah.
We, on our personal Facebook, we had to do that. Let me, Dan did that before.
I've been doing that since before I met you, babe oh yeah i i was like oh man but but yeah so i so i would call i would call people and i what i let them know if i you know if i got a hold of them as i introduced myself i said i'm you know i'm a tv writer i'm based in southern california but i'm originally from minnesota and i'm doing research based on these documents from the minnesota historical society and i i wonder if you might be one of the people related to these Thank you.
from minnesota and i'm doing research based on these documents from the minnesota historical society and i i wonder if you might be one of the people related to these documents and so i would share it in that regard and for the most part i mean i'm calling minnesotans for the most part they're you know they're they're polite but if they're not interested they're not interested And I just want to say i think you guys know this from talking with me but i don't want to like rock anyone's world or you know shake up their life so if someone said they weren't interested or wanted to talk to me off the record i respected that because obviously this is someone that's afraid that if someone knew about this, that they would be perceived differently, whether by their, by their family or by like their grandchildren or whoever it is.
And I went into it kind of thinking the other thing, I'm like, wow, you were like part of something so progressive. Right. And this is pretty like rad that you were. Right. You're thinking it's cool and should be celebrated.
Yeah then even 50 years later after they were part of this group they're still afraid of the stigma surrounding it very much so powerful and crazy right yeah you figured at like 80 you would give a fuck you'd be like yeah i was a swinger in my 30s it was fun yeah but no they still don't want a lot of them didn't want to be associated still they did not and even even a gentleman that had done um photography for one of the events I reached out to him and I said I really would like to talk to you about I I've had a pretty good suspicion that he had been part of the club but ultimately I just wanted to ask him about being a photographer at this one event.
And he would not talk to me because it was just like you know i i'm not talking to you about that and i said all right well i you know i i respect that and um so i had a lot of conversations like that and uh so overall how many people did you track end up tracking down? I probably tracked down over 50, I would say. And I ended up talking to over 10. So of the 50, you managed to get a hold of only 10 of them were actually willing to talk to you. Yes, I had a lot of rejection.
And and I and I had I had conversations with people that there was there was a woman that I talked with extensively because I did want to interview her and she would she would say, I don't really remember very much about that, but why would you want to interview me? And then we would talk for an hour and then she would say, well, send me your questions and then I'll decide. And ultimately, she she called me and she said, I just don't want to do it. And I said, that's fine. I understand.
And then we ended up talking for another hour. So it was just one of those things where, you know, there, I think that there was a lot of fear.
I think that, I don't know, know I guess I guess for me I think every element of your life is worth celebrating if you can and my motivation is to tell stories about people that otherwise wouldn't be able to tell their story and this club is totally forgotten and I thought it was something that was really interesting and some people were on board with me and totally interested where i was coming from but the majority of people did not yeah yeah it's interesting you know we get asked all the time like what is it like being open you know like what is it like being out in the open about being swingers and in you know you as a gay man might be able to relate to this is you know part of what we say is like there's just something about being able to live as your authentic self and not having to hide a part of your your person yeah and being able to be honest with your friends and family and co-workers and people around you and say like no this is part of my identity it's not it's not all of my being is part of my identity.
And I don't know. I think when you are forced to hide that, it just doesn't feel good. It just doesn't feel right. It just doesn't feel okay. And when you finally are able to kind of let that out and be your fully authentic self, there's just something rewarding and refreshing about that. Yes.
And, and also you, you don't allow for other people to learn from your experience and i mean you you both obviously do a lot of outreach people are asking you the same questions on tiktok every single day and you're very patient and kind about that and then some weird interviewer from california calls you ask you the same exact again, and you're fine with it. It's totally okay.
But I think that there's something to be said for the more people that are open about this, then the more it becomes something that's accepted.
And that was kind of my outlook is that I look at the state of things today and I don't know about you, but it's like I feel like ever since the pandemic, discussions about open relationships, ethical non-monogamy, polyamory, all of these different definitions, I can't even keep track, have been all over the the media i don't know if it's because of my algorithm and my search engine or what but i i see articles all the time and i just thought wow these are the people that 50 years ago kind of started that in a way yeah they are and i thought that was something really interesting and something to be proud of um but it wasn't for everyone okay so of those 10 people you got a hold of and were willing to go on the record with you what kind of things did you learn from them well I mean I will share with you I uncovered a lot of horrible like uncomfortable stories in the process of talking with people it was not the story I intended to tell at times um I'm a fiction writer so I created my own version of what this club was in my head before I started it and so every time I heard a story I didn't want to hear at first I was like la la la I like, let me move on to the next story that I really like.
And, uh, at first it just kept like hitting me in the face. Like, this is not what you think it is. You're not going to be telling this story the way you want to tell it because it's a real story. And so once I accepted that, then I really started to learn a lot.
And I learned that one of the biggest things is that if you're going to be in this lifestyle it's not an easy choice it's something that requires an extreme amount if you're going to be successful in it you have to be extremely strong in your relationship and you have to be able to communicate at such a deep level that is beyond the way that I've communicated with my husband for the past 20 years. And so that was something that I definitely learned.
And I also learned that this was a group of people that were regular people. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't what you see on TV or the movies.
It was regular people that were regular people it wasn't you know it wasn't what you see on tv or the movies it was regular people that were living in the shadows of something because they were afraid of being exposed and then the last thing i learned which which we all discussed uh when we met is that you have to decide how you're going to communicate this to your children. Yeah. And you have to decide, like, what about this is me as a parent not hiding from them?
Because obviously, you know, you don't want to lead a double life to your family and how much is enough? How much is too much? I mean, really, really, sorry, really fucking difficult questions to try to navigate. And so that was something that I dealt with too, is I dealt with people that are in their, you know, fifties and sixties who had parents that didn't quite navigate it the way that they possibly should have. And so that was a really hard thing, too.
So did you find I'm assuming what you just said that you found children of people that were in in the in the group?
Yes, I found I found children in the group in part because so many of the people that I wanted to interview were um so advanced in age that I was that I had a bad incident where I realized someone really shouldn't be interviewed so from that point forward if it was someone that was older I would reach out to um their their son or daughter or in one case their grandson um and and in some cases I already knew that they knew, um, in other cases I was just very delicate.
I'm like, Hey, you know, your mother was a member of a dance club in the seventies. And he's like, Oh yeah. He was like, Oh yeah. She was in a dance club. And I'm like, wait, I'm like, do you, he's like, yes. I'm like, okay. He's like, I thought you were really interviewed. You really thought it was a dance club. So I wasn't sure if I should tell you. And I said, no, I know. I didn't know if you knew. So there was a little bit of that going on as well.
But ultimately, um, I, I, I tried to, you know, I tried to be really respectful in how I approached it. Yeah. And, okay. So as, as you hear these stories and, you know, in your trailer, I think there was some allusion to maybe a little bit of drug culture that was involved within the, within the community. Yes. One of the bylaws is absolutely no drugs.
And, uh, part of the motivation behind And that part of the motivation behind no drugs and no no sex at the sponsored events is because if the police knew it was a swinging group they kind of looked away but once you threw drugs and sex into the mix then it became a different story yeah so they just wanted to make sure that they were protecting themselves um but then there is a point in the club where the drug use becomes more prevalent um and yeah and and actually in some ways becomes far more than uh than any of clubs originally founders would have wanted to be a part of so yeah that's definitely something that comes up for sure yeah and even you know some of that still struggles today you know I mean because you know I think today 50 years later there definitely is a different drug culture than there probably was in the 70s and I actually don't know which one probably had more drugs they might have had more drugs back then than they do nowadays um but it's it's definitely you know as an event organizer you know when you're in a sexual environment and people are consenting and stuff like that like you know i think me i'm a libertarian at heart like you're responsible for you you make your own life decisions you know i mean but as a safety thing when you have multiple people engaging with each other you know drugs are, you know, as well as alcohol.
And then we travel to different states. So, you know, in some states, you know, recreational marijuana is perfectly acceptable and fine. In other states, it's not. And so, like you're saying, we also don't want the cops busting in on any of our parties. So you definitely have to maintain, you know, some level of, you know, on the up and up so that you don't have those kind of issues and problems. So it's interesting to me that there was some of that going on even back then. Yeah.
And one of the, one of the things too, that I think is really interesting as I spoke with both of you is that the gentleman who really made swinging part of the public consciousness, in a way, is this gentleman named Robert McGinley, who organized this group called, he had his own swing club here in California called Club Wide World.
And he had an organization called Lifestyles Organization, and he did these national conventions where they would they would be at um the tuscany resort in vegas i think they were at the old aladdin at one point um and he would gather all of the different swing groups together and he is the person that would speak to the public and speak openly um to people about the population of swingers and about that it should be more accepted and more mainstream.
And he even worked at putting together a guide called NASCA, the National American Swing Club Association, and basically put together a directory of approved swing clubs that other people could look into. But he he wanted to make sure that these clubs were basically on the up and up, meaning that they were going to be clubs where there was like heavy drug use or where, you know, where they where they were going to be threatened.
One of the one of the members told me that she joined the silver chain because they tried to swing on their own and her purse got stolen so you know it was just like so that you know these organizations were formed to make people feel safe and protected and and he really took that a step further by by trying to bring together a national community of people that were in the lifestyle yeah you know honestly i think that's still a point where we're at now because it's interesting we go to like naughty new orleans which was probably one of the larger swinger lifestyle conventions now nowadays and you know we've sat in meetings with club owners and leaders and had those that exact conversation that you just said about it is like there should be a a national, a national registry of clubs.
And if, you know, if you're on this list, that means you should, you know, live by these bylaws, kind of what you're saying and have these rules around consent. And, you know, a lot of that's important.
I think it's hard to get, you know, that many people on the same page and agreeing, but it's interesting that we're still having these conversations again 50 years later it is it really is it's like it's so wild to me and i think that we can think of a lot of things in life where we think that we're experiencing something for the first time because we're the person experiencing for the first time and we don't realize that people that are like in nursing homes have the same experience it's just It's so wild yeah yes yeah just different you know as far as you know they were sending letters through the mail to p.o boxes and you know we're on a discord server with 35 35 000 people but you know we're still organizing and doing a lot of the same things yeah yeah okay so the podcast is out now how is that gone have you have you gotten feedback how how's the reception been um now that it's out there well the feedback's been great i got a really um like horrible review and um i was kind of relieved when i got it because i'm like oh this was this was the review that i've been giving myself for the past two years um because i want to make sure that i'm giving a fair portrayal and i want to make sure that i'm being um being open you know open to whatever came my way and that that was a really hard thing to do because I am very much for people doing what they want in their life and getting satisfaction and finding happiness in whatever way they can I mean I like I was very interested in this because in the gay community all of these things are topics I think the majority of my gay couple friends are in open marriages right now.
So it's something that has definitely been on my mind. And I was so excited about it.
So then to find out sort of like the darkness that some of these people expressed to me at times, it was really hard for me, but it also was a reminder of the fact that this is you know this first of all the lifestyle is not for everyone right yeah um that's fine and then secondly like i said before this is this is not as simple as you just deciding you're just going to have sex with a bunch of people there's a lot of relationship work involved and you have to you have to be conscientious about what you're just going to have sex with a bunch of people.
There's a lot of relationship work involved. And you have to be conscientious about what you're doing. So my biggest surprise in the feedback that I've received, and we've only been out for about a week, has been that people understand what I'm trying to do. And that was my biggest fear is that I didn't want someone to think, Oh, he, you know, he had this interview that was negative. So he's against swinging or, Oh, he had this interview that was positive.
So he thinks everyone should be a swinger. You know, I just, that's just not me. Like I wanted to meet people. I wanted to learn, like I wanted to learn and I wanted to have a deeper understanding of it. And, um, and I'm really relieved that the majority of people that are listening are getting that. And also they're excited about the mystery element of it as well, which is what caused me to commit to it for so long. Let's to solve that.
What about family members and like the people you actually talked to that survived this that were part of that, part of that group? Have they given you feedback from what they've heard so far? Yeah. So everyone that I interviewed prior to doing a final mix of the episode, I had them listen to it and give me feedback. So there have been times where people have requested that I make omissions.
Most people have said that they they thought it it was great they approved which has been really nice because some of the stories are incredibly um personal and uh i i've really bonded with most of the people that i met as well one of the women who is a member of the club is an artist and she hadn't done an art show for a long time. So I did an art show for her because I was like, can someone help this 84 year old woman out? She's trying to do an art show.
So yeah, so I've just formed these really great relationships with everyone, including, you know, the children of some of the members.
One of the women who did not have a great childhood uh I almost didn't want to share her story on the podcast because I felt like it was it was so difficult um for her to tell me and then she sent me an email the next day telling me how cathartic it was for her to be able to talk so I I think the the best thing for me like i said is that um people understand that i have good intentions this is very touchy subject matter and i'm talking about people's personal lives at a level that you know a stranger normally wouldn't so i'm very happy about the fact that people for lack of a better word get me and why i want to do this yeah yeah uh so how many episodes are out right now uh three so today um our third episode launched and it's about Dr.
Robert McGinley the gentleman I told you about and basically his swinging empire it's a very exciting episode that I had a thrilling time making I met with Dr.
Bob his wife jerry i went to their house that used to be completely dedicated to their saturday night parties um and there's actually a movie called the lifestyle that came out in 2000 um that that shows videos of how his house used to look and he had just an insane adult playing land um and now his house is a 90 year old man's house it's you know it's completely not that room anymore but um that's this episode and then after that we have five more weeks we have a total of nine episodes awesome uh and then if people want to listen or want to find that, or want to learn more about the silver chain, how do they find that?
We are on Apple, Spotify, um, Amazon, pretty much anywhere. And then, uh, you can also go to our website, which is, um, time capsule podcast.com. And I have a sub stack time capsule dot sub stack.com that has all of this stuff that I couldn't share on the podcast. That's visual. So I have newsletter clippings, photos. I write a weekly essay kind of is a companion piece to the episode.
And there are also things that I just couldn't fully fit into that into the episodes that i really wanted to so um my interview with you i i have clips in there but it just wasn't enough i really wanted to talk about swinging sort of like in a in a more um more personal matter with both of you in terms of how you got involved in the lifestyle and also talking about the stigma, because I thought that that was such a great conversation that we had.
So each week we try to put like a 20 minute, I call it a mini sode out so that people can get like a little bit of a deeper understanding of what went into making the episode. Awesome. So yeah, so that's time capsule, the silver chain.
you're on um apple music or apple podcast or spotify or any of them search time capsule the silver chain and you should you should come right up for you yes are there any any future projects and where do you go from here is this it you're done you're done with talking about swinging you're done with the lifestyle you're removing on the other projects or or are you hooked now oh god i mean i can't finish writing this eighth episode i've we've had it recorded and i keep saying it's not no it's not done it's not done i just don't know what to do next i really um this i had the time of my life working on this and meeting the people and um exploring this world that I knew nothing about.
And so my hope is that, uh, listeners will, will find something that they want to share that they think is something worth delving into for our next season. Uh, I have, um, learned about other swinging groups. And, uh, at one point there was, there were all of these letters from a swinging group that were on Facebook marketplace, uh, from, from Wisconsin in the 1970s, but they were selling it for $500. And I was like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know if it's worth.
I, so I was like, will you take two 50? And they're like, my grandmother says no. And I'm like, ah. That's great. So I'm really hopeful that something else this interesting comes our way. But right now, I'm so in it. I just can't imagine what that would be. Yeah. All right. Well, we appreciate you taking the time to sit down with us. I definitely encourage.
We're getting ready to drive to Florida here next week week and i think we know what we're yeah we're doing on our on our drive i can't wait to hear what you guys think we're gonna binge listen to some i'm really excited for you to listen to the third episode i think you're gonna you're you two are gonna look at each other and you're gonna be like we are these we're the i mean he loses his security clearance um yeah and i i just i mean it's just it's so wild i you guys have to email me or call me after okay episode we'll do it we'll do that for sure um so appreciate it paul yes i think i've listened to a little bit of it so far and um i you know it's funny because we kind of do this for a living now and i was like man this is a really this guy knows what guy knows what he's doing.
Like this. He did. He said that. You got sound effect. You're cutting in. You like it's like the next level. Like, you know, I mean, like our podcast is kind of amateur. This is like professionally done. Like, you know, I have almost that docu series kind of podcast, like almost like a true crime kind of feel to it.
But it's we call it a true no crime because it is in that vein but there's no there's a little bit of crime but not you know not serious crime right that's great a little casual drug use or something no one was murdered that we know of uh no not that i know of yeah okay i was gonna say spoiler alert yeah that's season two season two yes now had you got into it and there was a murder that would have been that would have been at one point i thought there was a murder oh actually no i did call this one woman i was trying to locate her and i called her sister and she said well when you get a hold of her you tell her that she murdered our mother oh god i was like uh i will not lead with that but thank you for letting me know all right oh wow all right paul well we'll be in touch we'll definitely take a listen and hopefully you got more swinger podcast docu no crime series coming up yes thank you so much you both of course all right i think with a world full of apples.
Be the pineapple. Be the pineapple, guys. Bye. Bye, y'all. If you've enjoyed our podcast and want to support us, leave a five-star review wherever you're listening. If you want to see more of our content, you can find links to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, OnlyFans, and more in the show notes. Come join the conversation with us and other Swinger content creators on our Swinger Society Discord server. If you have questions or feedback, email them to us at theswingnation at gmail.com.
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