Are Humans Wired for Monogamy or Conditioned?

Transcript

Speaker1: So in this episode, we're going to pose the core question. Are humans biologically designed to be with one person forever? Or is monogamy a social invention? We're going to set the stage with how culturally central monogamy is. Marriage, religion, and tradition. The science, the stats, and some uncomfortable truths. It's like my favorite Chris Rock joke. Men are only as faithful as their options. Welcome to Knot Swinging. A raw, real look at modern relationships. I'm Dave Arena. And I'm Victoria Arena. We've been together nearly 30 years, married over 24, and swinging for more than 22. We're starting this podcast now because for too long, fear kept us from living authentically, from being open about who we are and what our relationship actually looks like. Maybe this is our modern day scarlet letter. But we're here to be both the example and the invitation. To help others own their desires and question the scripts we've all been handed. What's broken in today's relationships? Is monogamy even natural for humans? And could the secret to a relationship that doesn't drain your soul be boning other people? This show explores love sex and identity often buckle under the weight of societal expectations especially monogamy subscribe to coming out swinging the podcast that redefines couple goals straight from the Motherfucking OGs. Okay, I'm excited about today because I did some research.
Speaker2: Chat GBT?
Speaker1: No. We are talking about monogamy. And is it natural for humans to be monogamous? I say no. Okay. You say no. I just say no, yeah. you wouldn't have said that when we were first together i would not have either would i but we're gonna look at why humans paired off well why don't we get into that first why humans paired off to begin with like the origin of monogamy okay it wasn't about love spoiler gotta be like some little house on the prairie crap right well i think it's before that okay okay so parental investment was one of the reasons so human babies are born extremely helpless two parents equals better survival that was one of the reasons oh that's like caveman shit yeah resource sharing early pair bonds helped split labor hunter and gather and protect children okay makes sense paternity certainty men sticking around meant more investment but also control got their livestock right i'll trade you for a cow marriage has control over time it became a social contract property inheritance alliances not a love story now that's pretty interesting and we've talked about that even in the past a little bit right like we see that right it feels like a contract when we look at a lot of couples it really does you know what it's really weird i don't know why i'm thinking about this but especially if a couple looks like they don't belong together it looks even more contracted like the ones that look like brother and sister yeah like you know there's you know everybody knows that one couple they kind of look alike they kind of act and then you're like they're a little too like they don't really belong together you know this is like a contract they've got to be together for a time or the one where you're like i don't know i just get like super duper, and nothing wrong with this. I'm not saying anything's wrong with this just saying you get super duper like she is full on in to women only and he is full on in the men only but there are a couple right he's gay she's lesbian you know that i'm not even talking about those extreme examples i'm talking about like what we always talk about where they look like they're just like hey we got married because we thought that's what we were supposed to do and we're just every day is like the same i don't know why that jumps out into my head no you're but yeah like you're right you know those contracted couples like you there's so many other ones but like yeah then you've got the ones that just you know they're living through just going through the moves of the marriage maybe no one will know what we're talking about but we know both of those types of couples the look-alike brother and sister and the gay couple ambiguously gay married couple married couple but when i hear when i heard the word contract i'm like yes that's totally what we talk about when it's like it looks like okay you guys just got married because you thought that's what you were supposed to do and now you're living life and you're doing everything for the kids and you're freaking miserable and you're just going about it yeah they're just literally staying in the contract yeah okay so how about the monogamy struggle modern marriage and divorce So we're going to get into the divorce rates. I thought it was actually high. I mean, I guess they say about 50%. 41% of first marriages end in divorce, 60% of second marriages, and 73% of third marriages. Why are you going at us? Right. So here's the core breakdown the three root causes 73 is lack of commitment 55 is infidelity and 45 is unrealistic unrealistic expectations now lack of commitment and unrealistic expectations are kind of a little broad or vaguer but i think i think all three of those could be what we're talking about, right? Because either you're really not committed to what you say you're committed to, and you're off doing things you shouldn't be doing. Infidelity, we know what that is. And I think unrealistic expectations is really the big one, because I think when we talk about monogamyamy we're talking about it always feels to me and like i said i'm not i'm not one that likes to i don't want to justify shitty behavior and say like people should be cheating or whatever but i do think unrealistic expectations are like you get into this marriage and it's a human being you're involved with and you're expecting them to like toe the line and be perfect all the time. And if they slip up or do something stupid or do something like we're saying is probably natural to humans, like you put them in the wrong situation. But their brain doesn't think like that. So their brain is thinking the way society thinks. Right. You see what I'm saying'm saying no totally but i think that that i thought that was an interesting one because i think that and we've talked about this before right that and i'm not i don't think it's just on the male side but it's always good to hear a woman's perspective as well because i know women may be a little bit different although i heard i just heard a tiktok from some doctor or something that was saying that women get bored with monogamy more than men well and i think that's why women fantasize more yeah which we'll get to in a bit but i think that like i don't think these are random a random three things i think lack of commitment could hide sexual or emotional dissatisfaction. You see what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. And infidelity is frequently about unmet needs, not really an absence of love. It's more about, you know what I'm saying? Right. Especially from a male point of view, because, and you know, people always talk about the separation of physical with men. We can easily separate physical from emotional. Now, I don't necessarily I don't necessarily believe that's that much different in women because of what we do and i've seen you be able to put that wall right but that's because i've trained my brain to think the other way true true you've you've done it for so long you may not have felt that way at first or have struggled with. Yeah. Like we said in the beginning, like we didn't think like that before we were in the lifestyle. Right. Because I think that I know that from a male point of view that if you were in and this is why I love that Chris Rock joke, because it's literally like either you're unfuckable. Right. Right. Or you're just not, you know, in everyday life, you're probably makes it sensationalized, but you're probably not getting into those situations. Like you're not, you're not in the like teacher conference and the teacher, your kid's teacher is hitting, you know what I mean? Like all those, you're just, but right. But let's just say that you were, let's just say that you were in that situation. That's where I think it's unrealistic to think that a human may not, you know, they may slip up. I agree. If they're put in the right situation. And I think, especially from a male point of view, I don't think that has anything to do with like, you could absolutely love your partner. And that's where people go with it. They're like, oh, well, you must, they must not love you. okay i get all that but it's like i don't know if something like that were just a physical thing were to happen and you were put in the right situation i know i could have that physical encounter and not feel anything for that person and not feel any less it was nothing about my love for you right right you get what i'm saying sense yeah and i think kind of the unrealistic expectations is believing one partner will satisfy every need forever like that's a i guess that's a cultural script that many can't live up to i guess is what i'm saying yeah according to these stats they can't exactly that's what i'm saying so i think it's like i think the reality is that like a lot of divorces are less about failure and more about flawed expectations around monogamy itself. And not only just, I don't even think it's just monogamy or just sex. It could be just the control of someone that you have, or you think that person is like yours, or you're just like, there's a lot of other expectations where you think that person is just going to toe the line with everything like you have in your mind real you are mine you are mine and you're coming back to me in the end yeah but sexually if you want to go out and do some other things let's talk about it and i'm going to let you do that more than likely yeah you know what i mean like but i know you're always you're you're mentally coming back to me all the time yeah but i'm i'm talking about even outside of sex like we have our things that we and we are an example of a couple who are always together in fact some people ask us how do you even do it some people thinkependent on each other. Only because we've we've worked from home since we've had our first child. We don't go out. We don't really have a lot of girl like you don't do a lot of girls night. I don't do guys night. Of course, we've moved around. So we don't really have a lot of close friends like that where we're here. Yeah. So we our social life is completely built around each other. But we still our things that we like you know like i like my alone time i like being alone whether i'm writing or whether i'm in the computer you like to watch your shows and be like there's things that we can respect those boundaries and even things like motivational wise like if there's something you want to do like when you got into the makeup career and me supporting you and doing that or i have some crazy idea like i'm talking about even that kind of stuff where most couples can't like it's their way or the highway and they have no flexibility and they feel like they are controlling that person i just think that never works you know i mean i think i've kind of always said like our relationship isn't the week, for sure. Like, it's a total ride or die relationship for us. Yeah, we've had a lot of roller coasters. Tons. I mean, just in general, like, ride or die. But, like, ride or die, sexually ride or die in love, ride or die in marriage. You know what I mean? I think that, and I do separate those three things. And it's definitely not for everybody but you know well and even outside of that kind of stuff like we're talking about entrepreneur wise like there's always you know that always taking those kind of risks and chances and having things go really well and also have the shots that we take that don't work out and it's like you have to you have to really be flexible in that but what's also interesting too is even though the divorce rate um it is high don't get me wrong 41 but we've always joked about and talked about those are actually the lucky ones that that get away and and move on yeah how about all the people the bigger group are the people that remain stuck and miserable in these situations because they either are scared to death of doing something to upset their partner or how many have done stuff and they don't even know about it. Yeah. Or they've done stuff and the other partner does know about it and then they just kind of live with it. Right. I mean get to some of those things as well we well here's when you talk about like fantasy and reality 22 percent of men admitted cheating 15 of women now when you say admitted i throw those stats right out the bat because that's like that to me that's that's always going to be higher right that's like your body count right about it like you you're gonna lie like that's whatever 33 percent in monogamous relationships report cheating emotionally physically or both interesting okay but here's the big one this is the big this is the these are the stats for me that tell it all as far as what we're talking about 74 percent of men would cheat if they could get away with it and this may surprise you 68 percent of women would that's high so you're you're close i would have never thought that right so you're pretty close in numbers you're almost at you, you know, 70 to 75 percent break even. Right. So that tells me right there. I don't know why that stat stuck out to me. It's because it's worded in that specific way of if you can get away with it. Yeah. So what that means is you're really just stuck in a situation where it's like, I have these I would act on them but and maybe some people would argue and say well isn't that the whole point of marriage is that you're not going to act on it and you are going to be afraid that you're going to get caught right and I kind of that's what we're talking about there here though is that but is that natural is that normal to control a human being like that to where they're like, this is what they want, but they feel like I'm going to fricking get murdered if I do it. Right. Do you get what I'm saying? Like what hit upside the head? Yeah. What do you think? Do you think that that's like, that's what marriage should be about? Or do you feel that that's where if people are really having those feelings, that's where it becomes like, is this really natural? Well, I mean, I yeah, I mean, I think it's exactly that. But it's it becomes a whereas the stats are like scientific stats, you know what I mean? It becomes the societal thing. Unfortunately, you can't separate the two. I think also there's a personal personal thing that comes into it so what i mean by that is we're saying it's probably not natural that everyone has these feelings and these thoughts whether they act on it or not i just feel that if you're having these thoughts where's the line between that's just natural to have those thoughts and even act on it or should you be held to some standard that's like i but i shouldn't act on it because i'm married or i can't act on it because i'm married i just think that whenever i see something like that it makes me feel it's a control thing right so you're you're trying i think here's what i'm trying to say when you take something that's not natural like that and you try to put it in a box it's no wonder these divorces happen and even more so cheating whether you even know about it or not is probably way higher even forget the divorce rate let's talk about just infidelity even when you don't know about it that's got to be super high right and so like take that into it's going to also keep happening i i think you know like if you stayed in the contract so to speak you know what i mean and there's nothing you know whatever and you're not at you know but you you've already acted on it once and then you're still there because that's where you think you're, you have to be, you know, you're not you know but you you've already acted on it once and then you're still there because that's where you think you're you have to be you know you're not acting on the the actions or whatever you're you're still going to be doing it again like either way like it's like more likely to happen more than once yeah and i will say i think there's a difference between maybe we look at things too much through the lens of just the physical because that's how we approach the lifestyle and we think well if you just you know got in the wrong situation like you know you've said this early on to me that like you know i don't know how you get you said you know my leaks or you know my i forget how you worded it one time but you basically you were basically saying like you know there would be certain situations or certain types of women like my type or whatever that you're like he would have no chance he would have no chance to like not do something and and maybe we just look at it through physical because i do think there are situations where yeah you seek outside you know you seek physical relationships because you literally aren't being fulfilled at home or you guys are just so far apart like i do think there are emotional reasons as well right i think we're talking more about just the physical like if you're put in the wrong situation you could love your partner all you want right here's another one that got me fantasy versus reality 98 of men Thank you very much. situation you could love your partner all you want right here's another one that got me fantasy versus reality 98 of men and 80 of women fantasize about someone else i knew that would be high i knew that would be high yeah you could have a movie star you're fantasizing about let's be real right and again i know that most people would argue but yeah that's you when you act on it, you're stepping over the line. And that's like the vows you took or whatever the you know, the marriage part of it. But I guess what I'm saying is, isn't that proof, though, that it's really not natural to be thinking in terms of one person forever? Right. In the physical sense, the sexual sense. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what you think about that it would be impossible you know i i think i asked somebody once like oh who's your free pass free pass is like the funny thing to talk about like your celebrity free press free pass yeah you know i don't expect them to say free pass you know joe net that lives next door you know i expected them to say you know B. Jordan or Idris Elba. Like, those are my free passes. But like, I think when you ask, like, they were like, oh, we don't get, we don't have free pass lists. I call bullshit. I call bullshit, you know, like bottom line, like you, there's no way your husband is not fantasizing about some woman somewhere. And if you think he's not, you're delusional, absolutely deluded. Well, unless he's one of the 2%. Right, I mean, yeah. But yeah, I think, and I think that's what I'm struggling with. And I think that's really the central question of this episode. And I'm not saying we have the answer to this. What I'm saying is I think we're establishing that it's not natural to be with one person forever, sexually, physically, and it's backed up by, even if it's just fantasy stats, it's backed up by the fact that we all have these thoughts. Yeah, mentally. Mentally, right. Now, the argument, and I could totally see where someone who is pro monogamy and pro marriage would say well that's the whole point of a marriage is you don't act on those things and i could see that but what i'm trying to establish is but if it's not natural i think we're i don't think we're i think we're delulu in our expectations of a marriage then And so when someone does step out you vilify them right and that's the thing it's like you just think it's all well they did this to me i mean this is what it says i mean do i think it's because you get people in the lifestyle that step out they don't follow the rules they don't open the communication and whatever and of course then i'm going to vilify. You have it all at your whim. Like you could have had this perfect relationship. But like what I, so, so I think there's parts of this where we have to be careful about what we, what we say isn't normal. It's, is it normal to, you know, want another partner? How do I, I don't even know how I'm putting this now. I'm getting all like, sort of okay so say we do this for you know you and I are into the this world and whatever but like you're not communicating with me and I find out you went and you were with somebody else without me knowing well hell yeah we have a problem oh yeah because we can you cheat it right so again and we and we always said that in our lifestyle, it makes it even worse because we literally could have just communicated or asked or, you know what I mean? However, this is what I'm getting at. It says people often cheat despite still loving their partner. Studies show cheating is often tied to unmet needs, opportunity or novelty seeking, not lack of love. I see that too. So genetic and psychological traits influence this too. And I guess that's where I'm getting at is if you're put in the right slash wrong situation, however you want to look at it, or it doesn't, I guess what we do as humans is we always think, well, that person doesn't love me. They, you know, and I guess respect is a different thing. I guess, Yeah, they did disrespect you by not by doing this behind your back right but i don't think it has anything to do with the love for that partner like i think that's what most people can't get past yeah and i understand there's also trust things and other things where it's like well i how am i going to go on with someone where i don't know if they're going to do this again or what have you? But I just think the personal like taking it personally, that it's like this person doesn't love me. I don't think now does that happen? Yes, because probably there's something wrong with the relationship to begin with. And maybe they are seeking some emotional connection or they fall in love with someone. I mean, we're not talking about those. We're talking about men are are not mean i think i see these stats coming up on you on that one men 44 want more sexual variety yep and 40 feel emotionally neglected well but but some of these things are that's where some of these are you can't group it all into one thing you have to kind of separate and that's why we started off i started off by asking about the physical wall because there's a difference between the things we're saying fantasizing about certain things being put in the wrong situation wanting more sexual variety just wanting that physical like holy shit he or she is hot and i'm and i want to do this right and it has nothing to do with loving your partner now when you start getting into like i'm doing this because i'm emotionally neglected there's a problem with your relationship anyhow is what i'm saying like that's different i'm just talking about the purely physical like shit i made a mistake i fucked up i got caught in a bad situation and the other person thinking that oh my God, he't love me she doesn't love me you know and i just don't think that that's you get what i'm saying no totally so i think there are different reasons yeah i mean it leads into like like you know who cheats and why so you've got like, well, you just said the women.
Speaker3: So, or you just said the men. So the women 40% seek emotional connection, 33% want to feel desirable. And that I can see, because I think that's where a lot of relationships get stale too, where you're, you're just living life day to day and you're not, you know. Yeah. You just want to feel hot.
Speaker1: Yeah. You know, you want to feel sexy and it feeds a whole nother side of that personality of a woman you know what i mean like to go get through life you know when you talk about you just said this 90 of online cheaters repeat the behavior yeah that's big that's not surprising either because we've especially being in this lifestyle that's one of the red flags that we see often yeah and we've talked about and then a fair length 25 last under a week 65 end within six months i don't really know that that tells us much except for the fact that it also kind of plays into the fact that you're most people are not doing this for an emotional connection yeah of course, that's a little different than what we're talking about, because that's not a one time like, oh, I fucked up. That's more of like it went on. But even if you were doing it just for physical or for sexual, right, it tends not to last very long. Usually they get it out of their system. Like I would think. Yeah. Sexually, like I got a banger, you you know like i could see a guy doing that right how about our closest relatives like what primates tell us interesting chimpanzees 98.7 genetic similarity to us okay it's like promiscuous mating no pair bonding temporary consort temporary consortships, not lasting commitment. So that's in chimpanzees, which are our closest. What's a consortship? I don't know. I assume it's like, I assume it's like a bond or a marriage. They wouldn't have marriage legally. Oh, yeah. Okay. You know. Yeah. I don't know. Who knows? Right. Bonobos, also 98.7% genetic similarity to ice. Persexual society, use sex for bonding power stress relief no pair bonds everyone mates with everyone well we know some friend groups like that they're bonobos and obviously we've evolved from these non-monogamous ancestors obviously so what do we do with all those like i don't even know if we've i don't even know if we were really seeking an answer or that i guess what i'm saying is and i'm not trying to be right or i'm not trying to be right about it what i'm saying is and i think there is a two different camps there could be the emotional reasons where your relationship just sucks or you emotionally want to move on right As compared to strictly a physical cheating type of thing.
Speaker3: Right.
Speaker1: Where it's like, oops, I just really wanted to fuck that person. I just fell into her. Which happens. So I think monogamy may be socially enforced rather than biologically natural. I think that's what one of the things we're saying. I agree. Would you? Yeah. I mean, that doesn't, you know, I don't know. Humans are biologically flexible. Some thrive in monogamy, others in open or poly structures. So I think that's a good point too, right? Some people are just maybe more wired for it because obviously there's people that can be married. I mean, sure there are marriages where both partners are. We're always always gonna have the groups that would want to rebuttal us on this obviously so they're gonna they're gonna say what you guys do is not natural right they're gonna believe that they're gonna believe you guys are just some hype sexed up people that want to you know be with other people sexually and that's not normal that's not a commitment that's not like saying you want to be a family and you know whatever i think the one i think the one thing that i always wonder when i look at these stats like this is there's only so many there's not like they were saying 30 30 percent of admitted to this or whatever what i really go though, is like there's got to be so many more people that either stayed married and they one or both of the partners have cheated on the other, either with them knowing and they just like got past it or lived with it.
Speaker3: Right.
Speaker1: Or probably more common is how many couples are married or together right now where there was cheating and they do not know at all. That's got to be high. It has to be. So what I'm saying is all these stats already are pretty high for this stuff, but imagine where they really are because people wouldn't admit it and people don't, they don't even know. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely something to really ponder over. I didn't expect stats like this. And it's the ongoing conversation like is what we do a natural. And that's the big question to end on for discussion, right? Is monogamy realistic or just a cultural expectation we've never fully evolved to meet, I guess? Yeah. I mean, I think, I think because it's just, there's so many factors. You've got the commercial factor behind it all where everybody thinks they have to have the big wedding with the white dress and it's supposed to happen like that. Right. When you get out, you know, like you graduate college and then you get married and then you have kids. It's like the chronological order. It's the thing when people get stuck and miserable in a job a job it's like you're committing to something that you're just because that's what you were supposed to do and you're doing it on autopilot and you're not that's what i'm kind of saying is like it's that it's that when we said the one stat about the lack of commitment that's what it is right you committed to something that you're like oh shit this is i mean job's a little bit different because you can get out of that easier. But the marriage thing, it's like many people will. Right. That's what. Yeah, it's it becomes a lifelong thing. And that's what marriage is like. It's like, shit, this is forever. This is one person forever. Yeah. I just don't know that that's how we're wired. It's according to the stats. That's not the way it should be. Right. Well, I think we've rambled on enough. I got all my chat GPT stats. I thought it wasn't chat GPT.
Speaker3: Right.
Speaker1: Well, it's handy.
Speaker3: All right.
Speaker1: That'll do it for this episode. See you in the next one. If you're digging this, make sure to subscribe. Leave us a review and follow us on TikTok at Dick and Dave. We'd love to help you redefine couple goals through non-monogamy without the mess. New episodes every week. We'll see you next time.