All Things Economic

I have not read this whole thread as so much of it belongs on the politics thread, but here it goes on money, per me, maybe a repeat of others above.

Never, ever, ever use credit cards as credit, only for convenience. If you cannot pay it off when the bill comes at the end of the month, don't use it.

Pay ahead on your mortgage as much as feasible. Owning your own home (outside of the fucking property tax BS) is a great thing.

Buy cars for cash. Buy what you can pay when you need it. Car loans for big bucks are the devil for many people. With a small amount of effort, you can find a very reliable five or even ten year old vehicle that fits your particular purpose. Insurance and sales tax will be much less as well.

If your employer has a 401K match, that is no brainer. Whatever percentage they put in, add that in too at a minimum for a 100% return. Maybe more if their investment instrument does well.

IRA, Roth IRA, mutual funds, and stocks. I won't even begin to tell you what and where to invest. but look into it with your own age and situation in mind.

Cash savings FTW. Build up a "nest egg". Savings accounts and CDs don't make a lot of interest, but liquid cash when you get in a hot spot can make-or-break your bad situation at times.

Smoke, drink, eat out, vacation, hobbies, whatever. That is all fine and we all need some personal outlets, but keep it in a small percentage of the budget. If you smoke and cannot pay the electric bill or if you eat out three days a week but worry about your car payment, then your priorities are out of order.

Keep all this in line and your discretionary funds will be GTG when you make it past age 50.

Flip,

Exactly 10 yrs ago, I had to borrow $500 from my father to move from AZ to WI.

That was the lowest point of my life. At 42, I was broker than a joke. Now I know what it feels like to to get gutted by a divorce attorney or a bankruptcy.

I got back pay from Uncle Sam, in Dec 2014. And we've been thicker than thieves ever since. Like peas and carrots, peanut butter and jelly.

And we're gonna be that way til the day one of us dies.

I've had a fortune life.

@8, love hearing that. Good for you !

BIF,

Very, very light drinker. Est saving $150-200.

I don't smoke. Ballpark $125-250 saved.

Not paying $140-200 on cable.

I don't pay interest on credit cards. Est saving of $150-300.

Pay everything except mortgage and car note with my cash back cards. Maybe $100-130 back?

Only spending about $280 a month in gas cuz it's a small city and free parking. Saving another $150 on gas.

Car note ends in about a yr. Avg US car note is $600 to $1,200.

On avg, get $700 from Uncle Sam for housing stipend as a student. That's like another 2-4 yrs

And no kids that I know of. Saving about $1,200 a month on the low end.

I'm Balling On a Budget and I don't earn $200k a year! Saving about $4k to $5k per month on those estimates.

I will not partake in the Walk Street Casino.

Bifem,

I would rather spend $150 on lottery per month or add it to my mortgage payment to principle. I'm done gambling at the Stock Market Casino.

Not including SSI, savings or the profits after selling my house, my retirement fund is good. I won't be living in the US after 2029, so my expenses will be cut drastically. My rent will be about 50-60% of what my mortgage is right now.

My savings is slow and steady at 4-5% with zero chances of a loss. I'm paying 20% over mortgage payment. Shaving yrs off my mortgage and interest is a sure thing. I don't pay interest on credit cards and less interest on my mortgage balance.

My house profit in 2029 will provide 15-20 yrs of rent money depending which country I move to. At that point all of retirement and SSI will be for food, utilities, clothing, savings and travel.

At 57 yrs of age, I won't worry about rent until my mid 70's with at least another 6 yrs of rent money saved up and fewer money expenses at that age.

America is great place to live but not retire.

"cool tickers, (especially those that end with Q). But you are both still gambling."

--------

Hey, I like my InvescoQQQ. lol

8inchcable they hit $40 when their robot successfully landed on the moon then dropped just as fasr when the robot flipped over.Next mission likely in February. I'm working the ups and downs until then. Anyone that thinks an IRA in the stock market is the same as gambling is financially retarded. Income growth in the market is real. Put 100 per week into the casino and see what you retire with

Roughly the chances that we have not, by now, beat that topic to death.

Just saying that the chance of getting a royal flush in 5 card stud is 0.000154%.

" A stock broker who tells a client that the stock market is aking to gambling is..."

e) Realistic.

If you want minimal risk, US government backed bonds and insured munis are your friend. Everything else carries greater risk and while there are mitigating strategies (dollar cost averaging remains my favorite), it's all a gamble.

Would you rather have a broker that tells you that you CAN game the market (PSA: you can't, although you might get lucky and take your winnings off the table permanently) or one that says, eh, these aren't returns you can count on, so what's your risk tolerance (which is a softer way to say it's a fucking gamble)?

LOL
OK. You're playing poker at a fishing lodge with a bunch of drunk dudes you don't particularly like who've been dissing the Vikings all night. Five card stud. You have the ten and king of diamonds showing. Another guy in a Packers hat has the ace of spades and the ace of hearts showing. You have the jack and queen of diamonds in your hand. Your last card is the ace of diamonds and mr. Packers goes all in. You match him.

Still gambling? There are analogies in business.

So I'll admit, again, that life is uncertain and go back to my original comment: A stock broker who tells a client that the stock market is akin to gambling is either, a) A worse poker player than me, b) drunk c) a dope or d) all of the above.

Go Pack! ;)

And in other news that will undoubtedly unleash the tyipical partisan bitching, conspiracy theories and BS (I don't care):

The Labor Department has revised the job creation numbers for March 2023-March 2024 downwards....by 818,000. That's eight hundred eighteen thousand.

How the hell do you make an error that large (roughly 30% of the 2.7 million jobs created in that time rame)? Especially considering that the usual process is private sector estimates, followed by the oficial Labor Department numbers, typically followed by a revision to the official numbers by the Labor Department one to two months later.

This post could fit equally well in the WTF? or JW threads.

CURRENTRIDER

My take on the gambling analogy.

You and 1 other person are playing Blackjack at a single deck table, with surrender. The other person is playing Basic Strategy, where the house has an edge around 1%. You are counting cards, and have an edge over the house of around 1%. Either way, you are both gambling.

Now you are at the horse track. You study the Daily Racing Form and handicap every race religiously. You have a decided advantage over the guy who employs strategies like "Always bet on the gray", but, once again, you are both gambling.

While playing the stock market, you study the Wall Street Journal, Morningstar, 10K's, and Prospectus's before investing. You have a way better chance of winning than the guy who just invests only in Blue Chips, DOW components, or cool tickers, (especially those that end with Q). But you are both still gambling.

It's all putting money at risk, so it is a form of gambling, just to what degree.

Again, just my take on the discussion.

You missed the boat about 16 months ago.

It was over $40 in early 2023 and then fell off the cliff.

3.9 vs 5.6 about 40 % in 3 weeks. Anyone got something better or is this a jerk off thread?

We will look but not into AI at all. We sold Nvidia right before the split

@BIF , you like cheap AI , look at Soundhound. NVIDIA has invested a lot of money there .

On 7-30-2024 I recommended LUNR at $3.90 per share. It is now trading at $5.60

@ GGMM

I guess we fundamentally disagree on our definition of gambling. There are different interpretations even in dictionaries:

~Play games of chance for money

~Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

~Betting or staking someting of value with consciousness of risk and hope of gain.

Getting out of bed, into a car, or onto a commercial aircraft all involve risk. Buying stocks IMO can have a lot less inherent chance involved than rolling a dice. Buying and managing real estate, in my experience, at least gives me more control (perceived or real) over my risk environment than trusting a stranger at the helm of a corporation.

I guess we all have to find our comfort zone.

Scamp,

The corporate taxes question is a good one. There are numerous viewpoints.

One is that corporate taxes are to some extent taxes on passthrough income. To some extent. The argument would be similar to the argument that not taxing my income, which comes mostly from partnerships and LLCs, is a giveaway to the rich. In point of fact, all that income goes right onto my federal (and in some cases State) income tax returns. Taxing it more would have real cosnsequences for the economy in that it would affect where and how much people like me invest in an economy. Believe me, it's hard to ignore a combined marginal State and Federal tax rate of very nearly 50% (48% actually) on my California income. My response is an long-term exit strategy from that state in favor of others. If the State of California tried to tax partnership income (which they did with LLCs) I would have bailed a long time ago since this is simply double taxation (actually now triple taxation at the Federal level thanks to Trump's elimination of SALT deductions as part of his "Fuck you" to blue states).

One, of many questions about taxing corporate income is that, ultimately, the passthroughs, other than income and dividends, accrue to stock valuation increases. These are taxed at a favorable Capital gains rate of no more than 23.8% for wealthy taxpayers (plus any State add ons). The simple solution for this would be to eliminate favorable capital gains treatment on stock sales.

Beyond that corporate structures are a breeding ground for tax evasion and use of perqs in lieu of income. Perhaps an accountant in the community could speak more to that?

Wow,

Go away for a couple of days and a war breaks out. LOL.

Way too many arguments to respond to here so I'll pick a few:

I absolutely agree with VA's comments. People would bitch if you hung them with a new rope. They've always done so in my lifetime, and there are lots of examples pretty much as far back as the written historical record goes that it has always been thus. There are all sorts of examples in evolutionary biology that show how peoples (not unreasonable at some level) concerns with survival resources guide their behavior. And isn't it interesting that so may people say "I'm doing fine but..."

As far as "corporate greed" being impossible in a free economy....oh FFS. First of all, corporate greed is a political trope of the left. It's like saying mother nature a bitch. The truth, and something I leaned as a cold, wet, eleven year old boyscout and have never forgotten, is that mother nature in NOT a bitch. She just couldn't care less for you or me, or our comfort or safety, in the grand scheme of things. THAT is the economy in a nutshell. The economy doesn't care whether or not people have food and shelter. Expecting "the economy" or the "free market" to "care" about such things is a fools errand IMO. Caring is what people do, not markets or any other natural systems.

So this is where politcs comes in. Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Bolshevism, Greed. These are just shorthand words for how to divy up the produce generated by "the economy". As are Democracy, Dictatorship, and Monarchy.

So, what is a free economy in a political world? There is no such thing IMO. All economies are regulated, taxed and manipulated. Some of the manipulations are generally popular...to a point. Anti Trust legislation for oneAnti collusion laws for another. Certain taxes, to a point, and to the extent that they are viewed as justifiable by a plurality of people.

So the question is not whether greed is possible in a free economy but rather whether a free economy is possible in a society comprised of humans

“ And the family behind the accounting scandal at Aldelphia”

Most of the people you named offered nothing but bait for greedy investors. That’s why ponsi schemes and pyramids were and still are successful today..

There is a big difference in corporations that invest, employ, manufacture, distribute and buy up commerce. Than most any of the people or entities you have listed. They were pure thieves… and you forgot because it’s been swept under the rug.. SBF.

And then there is BitCoin.. oh well..

They offered a lottery ticket to an un attainable prize at the end. David Hannum said many years ago.. “There’s a sucker born every minute”

Corporations have viability… Suckers have nothing..

And Bernie Ebbers at WorldCom, in Jackson, MS, where I worked my first post-military contract after leaving the military the first time in 1997.

And the family behind the accounting scandal at Aldelphia. Don't forget Tyco and other companies that were cooking the books.

The first face of the Mount Rushmore of these "white collar" crimes has to be Bernie Madoff. Here are some others from a CNN article. In my opinion, most if not all of the mega church preachers are conmen/ponzi as well.

1. Charles Ponzi – $15 million (in the 1920's)

1. Lou Pearlman – $300 million

1. Gerald Payne and Greater Ministries International – $448 million

1. Reed Slatkin – $593 million

1. Scott Rothstein – $1.2 billion

1. Tom Petters – $3.7 billion

1. R. Allen Stanford – $7 billion

1. Bernie Madoff – $20 billion

"...the answer to who decides should be the IRS via an easy to understand and equitable tax code that isn’t full of loopholes..."

Not sure I can agree that the IRS should be the one deciding.

But yeah - easy to understand and equitable tax code not full of loophole is definitely WAY out there on a limb in la-la land! ;-)

“I personally don't like the "fair share" argument. Who decides what a person or company's fair share happens to be.“

Would you agree that multimillion and multibillion dollar companies should pay more than zero in taxes?

And the answer to who decides should be the IRS via an easy to understand and equitable tax code that isn’t full of loopholes.

And yes, I know I am talking fairy tales and la la land now.

~Scamp