Pocahontas

TOPIC: Pocahontas? Stop feeding her, maybe she will go away.

ANDREW

You are still wrong . . . the government ALREADY controls it. It is not the cop as you so desire. It sets policies. Those policies dictate results. What the government is NOT is the executioner of the policies. But to think that the government is just a cop is so wrong. And the word you were looking for, that conservatives have problems stating: regulator.

Here, let me give you a non-hypothetical . . . let's go back to 1995. You buy health insurance. You fill out a form that is 32 pages long. You pay your premiums on time. You now get some really expensive fucking cancer to treat. Your insurance company is now god. They choose to either pay to let you live or not pay and let you die. Your argument is that the insurance company has a contract, therefore it will adhere to it. HAH! How naive of you. They choose not to pay. They claim that you did not disclose that in 1975 you had a broken finger. Therefore you lied to them on your medical disclosure and if you had told them that, they would have never let it get out of underwriting. YOU DIE. You have no remedy. You have no day in court. Tangenting here, but this is the RoundUp case in a nutshell. That guy is alive and getting a remedy! Now how is government the 'cop' here?

There are a lot of points that are different between government run healthcare and a fully private system. Which to let you know we do not have a fully private system, we have a hybrid already. People will scream that it is, as you stated, government controlled. Well, that is wrong because it does not exclude anyone from having a private practice or hiring a private doctor. The argument I hear is that it will be like the DMV and a shitshow. Well, it really could be if Republicans get their way. Republican's mantra of starve the beast is executed by putting in 20 people to do a job that takes 200. Then they can complain that the public version sucks and the private version is much better. But if you put in the 200 that are required, wow, it just works wonderfully.

And what is even more interesting is that this 'health insurance' thing that 'conservatives' are fighting for . . . it's not that old of a system. The system we have today, has not morphed or changed that much since Nixon. Prior to that, there was some insurance, but the model was really a fee for service.

I'll send the short bus to you next.

Erotica va medical benefits are earned so don't lump them in with welfare .i personally don't use va at all it's a shit show . Never used my gi benefits to busy being in a bad marriage and raising two great girls . Andrew over states his self worth Told me he was on the mean streets of Panama kicking doors down three day war what a bullshitter . Remember don't match wits with an unarmed person you will never win;)

Andrew, SO WHO IS GOING TO BE THE COP?

That is one hell of a compelling question.

The G.I. Bill, which I paid extra for out of my first year's paychecks, is the only veterans benefit I have ever used. I've been employed since then, with health insurance from my employers. I have this mental thing about taking welfare. I've never done it. Just so that's cleared up.

As for the rest, if you read what I wrote, and got "survival of the fittest" out of that, then you are one seriously retarded fuck. You need to go back to about the 5th grade for some more lessons on reading comprehension. I'd be happy to send the short bus for you.

Andrew,

If you want to have 3 personal, private doctors that you pay for, it's on you.

What a majority of the country, even some Repubs and/or Trump voters, are looking for medical care for all.

If you want to pay for your own medical care, it's your choice, nobody is forcing you to change your doctors.

How can America police the world, aid other countries with food, medical and such, and not take care of all of America's own, first?

Why does America neglect so many Veterans, and low income ppl in dire medical conditions?

We are the so-called richest and/or best country in the world, and we allow big business and big pharma to over-price medical expenses.

@Andrew

Nope.

Just plain nope.

There are a lot of reach's in your argument.

But wait . . . if I remember correct, you were in the service and get VA benefits? Hmm.

If you want a long retort on why you are wrong, let me know, but government's role is not to let it's citizens die because, in essence, it is survival of the fittest.

OMG I can't read it all, and I have infinite patience for reading details, when they are well written. I do it every day in my never ending quest to stay more informed than the average Uhhhmurrriken.

So let's cut through the bullshit!

Here's how healthcare is supposed to work. ALL PRIVATE! The doctors are private, YOU are private, the insurers are private, the manufacturers of medical stuff are private.

The government's role is to be THE COP over everyone else. The government polices the insurance so they don't violate their contracts. They police the doctors and the patients so false claims aren't submitted to insurers. They police doctors who fuck up and hurt patients in a negligent manner. They police drug and equipment providers so they don't give people faulty or unsafe products. They provide a regulatory structure to define what is required of everyone in the private system so nobody is screwing anyone else.

If you left wing FLAMING ASSHEADED SHITBRAINED MORONS get your way, then the government becomes the insurer and the provider of goods and services.

SO WHO IS GOING TO BE THE COP?

When you concentrate the power like that, the government literally holds your life in its hands, and there's nobody to complain to if you get screwed.

I hope I cleared that up, but I know I didn't.

It's so fucking funny. The same people who hate and bitch about Trump, who won control of the government in an election, are also the ones who want to give that same government ALL of the power over their health.

You have misunderstood and/or mischaracterized everything I have said. I'm not going to let that be my problem anymore.

You are consistently asking me to defend arguments I have not made. Answering you is a complete waste of keystrokes.

I cannot attest to meds made in china, but I can tell you for certain that generic drugs, made here or elsewhere are a total crapshoot. I take adderall and I have taken generics from the following manufacturers: Teva, Aurobendo, Impax and mallinckrodt, as well as the genuine article. I could tell you which is which blind folded just by taking one because they range from very good (Teva) to the absolute useless (mallinckrodt, unless you like caffeine like jitters), with the aurobendo running a close second to the teva and the impax a distant third, but not nearly as terrible as the mallinckrodt. In addition, I talked to a pharmacist about this and he told me that he had complaints about generic hydrocodone made by mallinckrodt, which he sent to a lab for analysis and found the tablets only contained 75% of the hydrocodone claimed. Following that, he sent samples and the analysis to the FDA, who actually did nothing. You do have to be careful about which brands you get, but I have not checked to see what the country of origin is for those brands. The FDA does not provide nearly enough oversight nor penalize companies for selling shit.

@Involution

You are preaching to my choir!

I have to dig it up, but there was some survey done not too long ago about 'medicare for all.' It showed a 78%(?) approval rate from the people. Then they broke it down by party and it was 52% republicans were for it, and 90%(?) dems.

It's really interesting that a few corporations are controlling what the masses get and not giving them what they want. Doctors and nurses also want this. I am paraphrasing one of the quotes from a doctor, but he stated, I went to medical school, not business school to learn accounting.

I am a businessman. I would love to have to not spend time interviewing agents and listening to the pitch for the insurance plan each year. I would LOVE to know that my employees do not have to worry if the sickness they have is worth the deductible on the plan. I would love to know that my employees would not have to fear a BK if they got a heart attack and then had to lose their life savings. I would love to have my costs be the same as my larger competitors.

No VA

You have shown that you are dishonest about China's manufacturing of meds.

You claim to be an expert, I do not. I have asked you to espouse your expertise. You have only stated that they have the same standards there as here, "The analytical work supporting it must meet the same standards as here." All I have stated over and over, they may have to but they are not. I have stated that the FDA is understaffed and not hanging out there. Yet you want to defend it like it is perfect. Want to talk about what the GAO says about this? Here, let me quote it for you . . ."FDA has improved it's foreign drug inspection program, but needs to assess the effectiveness and staffing of its foreign offices." gao.gov/assets/690/681689 .pdf

So when I say there was no oversight, sure, you can split hairs and say that it just took one inspection for their to be oversight, but you are also extracting out of context. When I stated the Lance Armstrong line . . . that was enough to give the context of that phrase.

So . . . please . . . mr. expert - tell me how the drugs coming from China are not . . .

1.) As safe as drugs made in the US
2.) Not a national security risk
3.) Trading profits for safety

Thanks for your response.

You've demonstrated that you are not worth arguing with.

Hope you enjoyed your game of pigeon chess.

Unfortunately, because so many people cannot seem to understand what happens behind the scenes, the rhetoric which in reality reflects the interests of the insurance companies, polarizes anb issue which does not really exist. While the people without health care who try to do the "right thing" by paying their medical costs, the price of health care premiums not only goes toward covering the losses hospitals would otherwise incur by treating those who cannot afford to pay the bill, the lack of transparency in costs and billing means that insurance costs more here to obtain poore medical care than many other countries with universal health care. A person with no medical insurance who is lifeflighted to a trauma center is going to rack up a 100,000+ medical bill, (which is highly inflated) and since that person is not going to be able to pay for it, or might simply decide to not pay it, the cost will be shared by everyone else who gets medical care for an inflated cost paid for by inflated premiums. That doesn't even include people who get simple treatment at emergency rooms because they cannot afford a doctor who would expect to have assurance of payment before treating someone. For hatever reason, people who are opposed to universal healthcare would rather pay for poor health care with inflated premiums than pay for universal health care, which as every country with universal health care has shown, is significantly less expensive for everyone. Every peron I know or have ever met from countries like canada, finland, etc., including those with dual citizenship who have health care insurance here, has told me that for any serious medical issue, they would go back home for treatment. The only thing that prevents the adoption of universal health care is that lobbyists and congress have been able to create divisive rhetoric to ensure that the policies that are adopted into legislation benefit none of the people the rhetoric is crated to influence, but does benefit those who crated the legislation. That's one reason the term health care is used to mean health insurance despite those two things having no relation to each other.

@Involution

I agree. Obamacare placated the republicans too much. I also agree that we are headed towards universal health care and think we will be closer to Canada's style. One thing that I think you may not have thought about is that not only did the insurance companies want the extra customers, the providers wanted the guarantee of getting paid. Obamacare's mandate cut down on people filing for BK protection due to medical care.

@VA

Why are you defending and making up BS about China? Do you have a vested interest?

It is NOT the same. In the US, the FDA can show up whenever they want. In China they can not.

Why not enlighten us on your expertise and tell us about the valsartan issue recently? Why not enlighten us on how the FDA learned of it.

I await your expertise.

Yeah, I realize what obamacare was. It was a law designed by insurance companies to ensure people received insurance, not health care. There is a big diffrerence between having insurance and having health care. It did not go nearly far enough to provide health care and I think obama sold out on it. It should have been a single payer plan just like every other modern country. Health care WILL be a single payer system eventually, though because the health care system here falls short of providing health care at a reasonable cost.

You have no idea what you're talking about, EA.

Audits and inspections with notice and normal in the US as well, and I was quite clear that surprises can happen anytime if the FDA has cause. This is the same as the situation here. The frequency and probably the scrutiny of those audits is likely not as high as they probably should be, but if what has been described counts as "no oversight" in your mind, then we have "no oversight" in this country too. You also said that there aren't FDA inspectors in facilities in China. Wrong-o. Not "unclear-o". Wrong-o.

If you think I'm splitting hairs here, have at it. I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. My opinion is that you've made an ass out of yourself by doubling down on your misstatements made on this topic; your opinion is likely different. I doubt I'll be able to persuade you any further.

@Involution

Technically, it was a correction :) It is also not a convoluted accounting scheme. It is just accounting. The tax laws are what is convoluted. Accounting just records transactions.

Yes . . . every citizen subsidizes employee based healthcare, whether they receive it or not.

I agree on where I think you are going. If the employee had to pay for all the health care and not have it as a benefit, then healthcare costs would drop. Right now, it is like I said, a casino. You walk in and change your currency to their own currency. And because you are a big spender, the house is going to give you some free things, like a room, and that steak breakfast.

The last part thought about negotiation and contracts. I am in a small disagreement with you. While I think there should be some very easily boilerplate terminology, the fact that there is a complex scenario requires complex language and honestly, most people can't read legalease anyways. But you do realize that part of Obamacare was standardization of benefits to step away from that maze of benefits issue :)

@VA

I stand by what I wrote. I stated that the original 'short' sentence may not have elucidated the meaning with pure clarity. You seem to want to harp on a tiny semantic issue while ignoring the point.

Fuck . . . you are so hyped on that that you even did the same thing you are hyping over. Look at your very last sentence.

But if you want to argue over this . . . sure . . . we can waste the time. You already proved my very first point . . . there is no oversight at all. How? Thanks for the five day notice before they can walk in. That is NO OVERSIGHT AT ALL. That is telling the criminal that they have five days to clean up so that when you show up to inspect you do not find a crime.

So if you want to keep saying I do not have balls, even though I stated an apology for not being extremely clear . . . that's on you.

The facts are the facts.

Our country's medicine has been outsourced to a foreign country that is an adversary. How the fuck does that not make nationalists go apeshit?

Have the balls to admit that what you said originally was wrong, not "unclear". I'm not nitpicking at details or wording. Jesus it's like arguing with Sar...

The FDA's permanently staffed field offices in China were established 10 years ago, before the FDASIA Act, but FDA inspectors were already traveling to China before that time.

As for audits and inspections - they are normally scheduled some 30-60 days in advance here too unless the FDA suspects you're up to something. They can just come knocking at any time, but this is very rare. In China they need to provide at least 5 working days notice, unless the inspection is "with cause". In that case, they can show up at any time.

If what you're trying to walk back your comments to is that the FDA oversight is inadequate, I'm willing to get behind that. It's a huge country with a lot of scoundrels and the FDA's presence there is small. I'm not happy with the situation either.

@erotic,

That is not a correction. The bottom line is that when you go through all of the creative accounting, people who have health care through their employers are being subsidized by people who do not have health care. If that were not the case, then then there would be no point in having such a convoluted accounting scheme. People would receive a salary and pay for their health care from that salary. Insurance companies would then have to deal with each individual and make it a competitive market instead of forcing people into mass negotiated contracts with employers that are complex and make it very difficult to understand exactly what the benefits are.

@VA

I was not clear in my statement. I should have stated, more verbosely . . .

This is what I am stating and intended. I apologize for the brevity and lack of clarity originally, but the facts are still the same.

A pharma maker in the US has the FDA there. The FDA is not there in China like they are here. The FDASIA act of 2012 stated that the FDA was supposed to. In typical Republican fashion . . . it's not funded. It's too costly to have those FDA people there all the time. So it has gone to a trust and sometimes verify. The verifications are noticed, like I gave the Lance issue.

As you have stated you are an expert on this . . . please, enlighten us on the warning letters to those plants. And while you are there . . . talk to us about anti-biotics no longer made in the US.

You're changing your story.
First it was that there was "No oversight at all"

Then it was "trust and do not verify"

Now it's that they inspect but "with notice"

I'm not chasing a ghost.

I have worked for years with the FDA and pharma companies to bring intermediates, APIs, and drugs to the market from domestic and foreign sources, including China. When I refer to myself as an "expert", I mean I am a paid, professional, testifying in court and influencing policy and the courts "expert", not the Google variety.

I am not going to argue with your evolving misunderstanding of a book