Climate change

@ Erotic

Depends on what you mean by computers. About 0ne third of the IT energy budget is used (according to one study) by each of three sectors: computers, data centers, and networks. The total is about 7% of global electrical power (this seems low to me based on other things I've read over the years) and 2-3% of global energy use.

I'm not sure which category Crypto miners fall into. IMO the most egregious waste of carbon footprint on the planet. But as far as corporate cloud infrastructure and data centers, as you pointed out, there are several major players. Amazon, Microsoft and Google being three. Given that someone will dominate this space or emerge to fill any voids, I think the problem ultimately comes back to consumers. And any solutions need to be more macro in scale I think.

@Current

You touched on something that is HUGE for climate change that is rarely talked about: Computers.

People do not realize how much power these beasts pull. Then they do not realize how many there are! At this point, I think a lot of people have heard of AWS. AWS is where amazon gets all of its profits! If I were to ask you how many computers they have, I am sure there would be a lot of head scratching. The answer is close to 2 million. These are running 7x24. They are currently the leader in that arms race. Now, add in Facebook, Microsoft, Google, and other cloud providers. Facebook has about 40 million square feet worth of computers and storage.

These beasts, and I will keep using that word, pull a LOT of friggin power. I think we are going to head down a path of more power efficient chips again and I hope that money for the CHIPS program will push that angle. But honestly, we as a country need to invest in a company to replace ASML (Netherlands based) and TSMC (Taiwan) and Samsung (South Korea.)

While not an expert of climate, David Attenborough has done a number if nature shows that show what habitat looked like years ago vs now. The focus is more on that than the weather in general, but it is another aspect of the global impact of humans on the planet, and is pretty eye opening.

Ignoring the hyperbole about the government taking away our rights, how do tax credits for solar, efficient appliances, electric vehicles, etc. affect anyone's freedom of choice? Yes, it's a wealth transfer through taxation (more accurately through allocation of debt liability to future generations since we don't actually spend wthin our means) but, so what? We subsidize everything from unhealthy agricultural commodities to open space to clean air and water to, yes, fossil fuels, in this country. We subsidize domestically owned ships, domestically produced steel and are considering subsidies of domestically produced semiconductors, all in the interests of national security. The same arguements are made for energy subsidies of all types.

I'm happy to hear the debate but please spare me the drama queen lamentations and government deep state conspiacy blah blah blah. Jesus that crap gets tiresome.

"When we begin to regulate for the common good, individual freedom is lost. "

LMAO. Would you advocate the opposite? What is the purpose of government if not to attempt to make the lives of people better? That statement is pure anarchy which is as naive and impractical a political world view as there is.

I have much more patience for people who don't give a fuck about climate change than those who don't "believe" in it. The latter are ignorant in the literal sense that they are ignoring a preponderance (more like a rising ocean) of evidence to the contrary. And evidence that is easily discernable and readily accessible. I would no sooner argue with these morons about the "if" than I would argue with someone who thinks Trump won in 2020 or forest fires are caused by jewish space lasers.

Mayhem started this thread with a good question/pemise: What do we do about it and economics is the best way to address it. I agree.

October 03, 2022 - UNITED NATIONS (AP) — U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres warned Monday that the world is in “a life-or-death struggle” for survival as “climate chaos gallops ahead” and accused the world’s 20 wealthiest countries of failing to do enough to stop the planet from overheating.

The U.N. chief said emissions of global-warming greenhouse gases are at an all-time high and rising, and it’s time for “a quantum level compromise” between rich developed countries that emitted most of the heat-trapping gases and emerging economies that often feel its worst effects.

Very interesting comments from the UN when you consider that The Paris Climate Accord was put into full force some 2,300 days ago (04/22/2016). Even more interesting? The Kyoto Protocol was signed some 9,000 days ago (12/11/1997).

I sense a big ask ($$$$) coming out of the COP27 meeting in November.

Here's an example of some tier 1 solar panels that I can't really get in the US for anywhere near this price (540W @ $214 = -$4300 for 20 panels and 10.8K) -

etronixcenter. com/en/590-solar-panels

Here's a grid tied inverter for up to 11.4KW for $1.6K -

signaturesolar. com/growatt-11-4kw-grid-tie-inverter-min11400tl-xh-us/?setCurrencyId=1&gclid=CjwKCAjws--ZBhAXEiwAv-RNL7C5SUx5wocH3vxS3rodJSYxDEyebUQ4d-Ofo4GlIKzSOpKjfWLb8hoCtqEQAvD_BwE

A roof rack mount set-up for 20 panels (as far as I can tell) is going to cost ~$1K - $2K, and panel optimizers are $50 - $80 each, so add another $1K - $1.6K for 1 for each of the 20 panels. and add another $1K for wire and such, and you have a 10K+ system for around $10K before labor.

The reason the UK panels are so cheap is because the supplier is in the Netherlands. I asked them about shipping to the US, and they said the shipping costs would be prohibitive.

The point is, these are prices for stuff that is available now, and prices for this stuff are only going to go down while capacity and parts availability are going to go up. There are of course other solar configurations, so this is just one example of what is currently available. Seems most installers are using microinverters vs optimizers, but I don't see a big advantage to those when they are 3-4x the price of an optimizer.

The microinverters do the conversion to AC, so the panel that ties them together and syncs to the grid frequency is different and the single inverter for the optimizer config is a single point of failure, but for the amount of times it is going to fail, it doesn't seem worth the extra cost IMHO.

Eversource in NH went from $0.10 to $0.20/KWH for the supply charge in Aug, so $0.13/KWH doesn't seem all that high. I have a gas stove and gas clothes dryer as well as an oil hot water boiler, so void of a lot of big electricity using appliances and I'm STILL now paying over $300/mth electric bills.

There is nothing saying you can't have both an EV and ICE vehicle. There are times where we would use the EV over the ICE and vice versa, at least till an EV range > 300 miles was commonplace under normal circumstances, and a decent charging infrastructure

They've cracked the nut on fast charge batteries and can now get a vehicle charged to 80% in about the same amount of time it takes to fill the tank on an ICE vehicle. This is still relatively new tech though, so will take a few years to be more commonplace and have the chargers in place for those

FWIW - While you can certainly spend that much, $30K for a 10KW system is steep, Like most things electronic, the costs are coming down as the capacity is going up. In NH, I would say the electric rates have not been stable, so at least in our case, solar makes a lot of sense provided you're not overly shaded by trees.

I'm not sure that the cost of batteries is justified. There is the issue of losing power. In a grid tied solar system without batteries, you will also lose your power because the inverter will shutdown otherwise so as not to back feed the grid in a power outage. Off-grid and hybrid systems have no such issue.

Oh and if it wasn't clear:

It probably took him 3 minutes to write that bullshit and 20 minutes for me to pick apart just a portion of it. It is far easier and faster to spew garbage than to refute it. So why am I going to let people like this be time vampires on my life? Why don't I prove him wrong the next time he spews bullshit? See this exchange, or perhaps 8 other similar exchanges.

Hey 5looking:

I'll make you a deal. I'll start the process if you accept the fact that this nincompoop just makes shit up.

"no, you do not get 250 miles on a charge (bullshit blather continues)..."

Ok. So car manufacturers, the EPA, and review publications, and consumers everywhere are all lying and SC knows the real deal. Do you believe that? If so, we are done here. Even the most casual googling of "average miles per charge electric vehicle" gives you 250-300 miles. And if he comes back with "the EV vehicle owners I know...", remember that this guy also claims that he personally knows 15 people hurt or killed by COVID vaccines. If he knew anything about electric vehicles (or about pretty much anything) he would know that due to their use of regenerative braking, there are only small differences - 25% max between perfectly flat and hella hilly.

So basically, that's all bullshit.

"Only yesterday"

Nov. 17, 2021. Maybe HE watched it yesterday.

"Biden went and drove the new Electric HUMMER. I mean like wow, they admitted on air, it had fantastic speed but only had a range of "80 miles," and then it required a 24-hour charge from a "home hook-up," and at one of your charging stations, it requires 3 hours to go from 7% to 100% charged, then you get to go another 80 miles"

I dont know what clip he's talking about, but in the 9:42 C-SPAN clip of him driving it, no such discussion took place. And if it did, that would be bullshit too.

media.gmc.c om/media/us/en/gmc/vehicles/hummer-ev-pickup/2022.ht ml

"In the Edition 1 HUMMER EV, two layers of vertical cell modules will be used to produce a combined 24-module pack offering a GM-estimated range of 329 miles"

And that same GMC site describes"add nearly 100 miles of range in 10 minutes of charging" under optimal conditions with an 800V charger. Yes home 110V standard plugs are very slow, but even the simplest googling returns "55h at 110V, 10h at 220V, 1h at 440V", although that is likely to 80%. Batteries charge much more slowly from 80-100%.

Anyway - I just wasted 20 minutes writing something he - and you - will likely ignore. So either appreciate that this clown is as reliable as a condom you found in a ditch or please, leave the sane among us in peace.

Yes I am being rude and nasty. I am simply fed up with idiots and liars. This guy is definitely a liar. He may not actually be an idiot and is instead a decent troll, but he is not remotely a source of good information. I wouldn't trust him to tell me what time it is.

You can't beat the pigeon at his own game.

I have proven his information, arguments and logic wrong many, many times. He just keeps posting more of it. At what point does one walk away from pigeon chess?

There comes a point where it is futile to try to explain something.

The poster will simply come back the next hour, day, week and spout the same nonsense.

There was a liberal poster back a while ago that was the same way. Robert something or other.

I got to the point where I would number my responses depending on his posts...

VA. Then prove him wrong. Back up your “Full of Bullshit” comment. Back it up.

Enjoy your mental masturbation fantasies, SC. Almost everything you wrote is either bullshit or irrelevant.

<p>"<span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:open sans,sans-serif; font-size:14px">I think you are WAY off on saying that they have high rates."</span></p>

<p><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:open sans,sans-serif; font-size:14px">GRU has the 2nd highest electric rates behind Key West. But like you said, they are reliable, so I like the convenience. And they also provide all our other services - Trash pickup, yard waste pickup, recycling pickup, gas and water. Now adding all those services up, I have no idea how much those cost total around the country, but my most expensive total bill was $470 in July. The average is probably around $275. </span></p>

@VA

I am laughing at whoever wrote that (they have me blocked) trying to jab EVs.

I'd answer it this way :)

Yeah, having the EV and Solar has been a blessing. While my neighbors are sitting here, in the dark, waiting for the electric company to come fix things, well, I am using solar to run the house and charge the EV. I was smart enough to buy battery storage, so even if there is no sun for the next 3 days, I am still sitting here in my AC house, with something else that my neighbors want . . . ICE.

But because I have power I have opened up my kitchen to the neighbors. They come and prepare all their meals for the day at my house.

It's amazing how all of those anti solar people, the ones that mocked me, are now going to buy solar shortly.

:)

The hypocrites are out in force, I see.

@Wayne

I completely understand the issue you are pointing out.

If you stay with your utility all you have is OpEx. If you go with solar, you have CapEx with a reduced OpEx. It is a math equation to determine the quantitative aspect. But I do think you are looking at this in a snapshot fashion.

When looking at EVs, how do people try and justify the savings? They look at the gas price today and do math. Gas is volatile in price. Yesterday when I was out, gas here was 5.89 a gallon. What is interesting was in 2008(?) It was over $5 a gallon. Then, somehow, someway it dropped down into the high 2s, low 3s for a bit. So if the person does the justification when gas was $3 a gallon it looks bad compared to when gas is $5 a gallon. Energy costs are not that way though. Electric costs, have they ever gone done with GRU? Chances are they have stayed relatively the same with some minor creeping up. This is from GRU, "This is the first time since 2019 GRU has raised rates despite increased expenses and relatively flat revenues. GRU felt it was inappropriate to request rate increases last year due to COVID-19."

Honestly, looking at GRU's rate, I think you are WAY off on saying that they have high rates. Ripping them because they are liberally run. Uhh. You might want to go kiss their butt and thank them for running it so well. Why? Because they run a tiered usage system. That is not that atypical but they do not have a time of usage fee.

Right now, THE WORST case you would play is 13.56 CENTS per kWh. That is the highest level! If you use 1700 kWh, your blended rate would be roughly 12 cents per kWh. FPL has a blended rate as well, the highest they would have is 12.056 cents per kWh. Ok, FPL sounds cheaper. They also add a base fee, regardless of any usage. At 1500 kWh FPL is 179.93 and GRU is 197.39. At 800 kWh GRU is 103.76, FPL is 97.44 They ain't that much cheaper. It's interesting that you credit GRU for being reliable. That has a lot of value! That gets into the qualitative aspect, the one we can't measure.

But I think you and others are still missing a financial concept. You seem to think the minute you buy solar, the value of the asset is zero. That is the same as thinking that the new car you bought last week is now worth zero. That car still has value. So if you spend 30k and sell the house, how much of the 30k do you get back? It definitely ain't 0.

I think all our CA peeps would love to see your electric rates. Where you guys start at the ~11 cents, we start at 29 cents.

--

Yeah, Skeeters blew out in the 80s. The guy that owned it moved to South Florida. He opened up again in Lauderdale. It didn't last that long. Skeeters belonged in Gainesville. I was last there in March of 21. Prior to that, I want to say it was 92. 13th street didn't look the same. The campus looked so different. I lived in the Graham area when I was on campus and the fact that there is a paved parking lot behind it now before frat row was just amazing to see. I miss Burrito Brothers. But yes, when I was there, the corner of University and 13th, wow, it looked so different with the tall buildings. I remember the In and Out up a little from that corner! Cheap food for a starving student. I like Gainesville, always have.

How true Wayne about Gainesville.. we have relatives now in Lake City on 77 acres and drove through last month..! That nice college town feel..is now forever gone.

"can some of you folks that live in Florida let us know how those EVs are working out?"

What difference will it make? You'll just ignore answers you don't like and celebrate ones you do.

But against my better judgment, I'll answer anyway. There are still EVs scooting around all over the place in spite of a number of places still not having power.

I know this will be difficult, but think about this. A hurricane is coming. Just like most people fill their gas tank, most people "fill" their EV. So most people exited the hurricane with at least 250 miles available to them. We have really only been able to get out of the house since Friday, so that was 4 days. Do most people drive 250 miles over a 4 day weekend right after a hurricane? Probably not.

But even if they did - they go to these places called charging stations. Yes, they don't work if the power is out, but neither do gas pumps. And besides - you don't have a gas pump in your house, do you? Just like an EV owner, you have to go drive to a station with electricity to "fill up". EV owners had the advantage of being able to charge at home in the days leading up to it when everyone was lined up at the pumps.

"The MSM did say that not one of the trucks or tractor-trailers heading into Florida with aid and supplies is electric"

A news report actually bothered to point that out? And - so what?

Jesus Christ that was a lot to write to someone who will simply dismiss it. But ir was a whole lot of unanswered dummery (yes, I made that word up), and someone who isn't so impervious to logic might read it.

<p>"<span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:open sans,sans-serif; font-size:14px">In regards to solar, people are using so many non-economic excuses to not do it. I tend to chuckle. Why? Because I don't see them dumping their car as soon as it gets to the 37th month and out of warranty. Somehow, someway, that solar device is going to die the day out of warranty, but the car will not."</span></p>

<p><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:open sans,sans-serif; font-size:14px">If I stay with GRU, my equipment cost is $0. If I get solar, looks like it is a minimum of $30K for the install and then I have to deal with maintenance and potential repairs. As mayhem8 stated, age is also a factor. I'm 55. I may be retired before I see any ROI and I have no idea if I will still be living in this house. Convenience is sometimes more important than saving money. GRU is one the most expensive energy companies in Florida now (because it is a liberal run company), but it is rock solid. We've only lost power twice in 20 years and only for a few hours each time.</span></p>

<p><a href="https://www.swinglifestyle.com/profile/lookup.cfm?usercode=41370601">eroticamazon</a>,</p>

<p><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:open sans,sans-serif; font-size:14px">Skeeters has been gone for years. I miss it too. When was the last time you were in Gainesville? I doubt you would recognize it. I just drove down Univeristy Avenue and I counted 7 construction cranes putting up high-rises. Almost all the college hangouts from the 80s-90s have been torn down now.</span></p>

<p> </p>

We have friends that have an EV and solar. That means even if they couldn't get gas because there was no power, they can still charge and use their car.

As solar gets more common, I stronglly suspect that EVs will become the "power wall" in some people's homes. Apparently an EV battery will provide enough power to run a house for 2-3 days. They're not there yet, and not going to help much if you're out weeks, but if the sun is out, you can charge your car and extend that 2 - 3 days out.

I believe someone here mentioned a community in Florida hit by Ian that runs on nearly 100% solar and they never lost power.

For me personally, I'd be hedging my bets with an EV and an ICE car.

@2much and @Mayhem

Bingo. That has been the argument I have made over and over. Most people don't care about the environment, they care about their wallet.

I had the same fight with the two women in my life regarding a Ford Expedition we had. Every single time it went to get gas in it, I heard about it. I pointed out the minimal amount of miles driven per year. They didn't care. I did a spreadsheet showing the return. That moved the needle a pubic hair. I have a penis, therefore I lost.

In regards to solar, people are using so many non-economic excuses to not do it. I tend to chuckle. Why? Because I don't see them dumping their car as soon as it gets to the 37th month and out of warranty. Somehow, someway, that solar device is going to die the day out of warranty, but the car will not.

Solar panels do degrade. If you look at the warranties, it is efficiency at the warranty point. Most will guarantee 80% iirc to 20 years. Think that through. If it goes below 80% at year 21, uhh, ok. What is the worst case scenario? Replace ONE panel. That will probably get you back to 80% for a bit. When it dips again, replace another. Panels are dropping in price.

The electronics (inverters) will probably make it 12 to 15 years. This is such a variable cost depending upon what you want the inverter for.

There is a guy on Youtube, HOLY SHIT, he does a great job of explaining and setting up all of these systems as a DIYr. Look up Will Prowse. He reviews products, does battery reviews, etc.

But I do like what Mayhem pointed out . . . the next guy.

This goes back to the chuckle part. People are thinking that these are sunk costs and have no tangible value on their property! You remodel a kitchen and it gets what percent back when you go to sell? :) Same concept. There is a CapEx issue on the asset and then a value at a point in time, it is not zero.

The last house I had, it had a 1970s solar blanket thingy on the roof and it was set up to try and heat the pool. When I found out it didn't work, I pulled it. In hindsight, I should have replaced it. It probably would have cost me $2500 to replace/upgrade things. At that point, I could have a pool heated all the time. This means little to those that live in Florida, but here, heating a pool is hard because the air is cold. That would have had a quick ROI!

There is also the qualitative issue that people are leaving out. Again, being from South Florida, we call FPL, the power company, Florida Flicker and Flash. When we moved here, people freaked out because we showed up with about 20 different UPS's and our power generator! When you don't have power for 2 weeks because of a hurricane you understand the quality of life issue. How do you put that in a ROI?

But if you are really interested in this stuff and considering going 100% off grid, look at the Will Prowse guy. Last I checked he went completely off grid with storage and charges his Tesla from it! The math worked out for him.

Our electric bill averages about $70 a month so we can't see the economic benefit of going solar at this point. We would be well into our 80s before the investment would pay off unless our utility bills go up significantly.

Same with buying an electric car. We're retired and not commuting any more so we don't drive that many miles. Our ICE vehicles are all paid for so even at California gas prices we're financially ahead by keeping what we already have.